The House met at 10:03 a.m.

[The Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Prayers and reflections: George Anderson.

[10:05 a.m.]

Introductions by Members

Hon. Brenda Bailey: Normally, one has the opportunity to introduce folks from their own riding, but today I get the opportunity to introduce some very special people from my hometown. Thank you to my colleagues for allowing me this honour.

I’d like to welcome the members of Nanaimo’s professional and business club called Probus and two very special guests: my mother, Rhonda Bailey, who’s the past president, and also a dear family friend, Allan Winks, who’s the current tour chair.

Probus is a non-profit fellowship organization founded in 1998, and it has grown into a vibrant community of 262 members. Probus is dedicated to supporting active social lifestyles for retirees while fostering meaningful connections in the community. I can speak firsthand that, in fact, that is exactly what it does.

Would the House please join me in welcoming Probus to the Legislature. I hope you enjoy your tour.

Hon. Adrian Dix: It is EV Drive and Ride Day with the B.C. New Car Dealers Association today on the front lawn. I invite everyone during the lunch hour, as they get some relief from the important debates we are having in the Legislature, to join the New Car Dealers Association of B.C. on the front lawn.

I want to express a warm welcome to the directors of the New Car Dealers Association of B.C.: of course, Blair Qualey, the president and CEO of the New Car Dealers Association, still trying to convince me about a new car; Ann Marie Clark, the chair of Steve Marshall Ford/Family Ford; Kai Hensler of Jack Carter North Star Kootenay; Jared Williams of the Weissach Group in Vancouver; Dave Bare of Harris Kia, Deryl Griffith of Signature Mazda Richmond; Luke McClellan of Wheaton Buick GMC Ltd./Mercedes-Benz in Kamloops; April Gaskell of GM Financial.

The New Car Dealers have played a critical role in promoting and supporting electric vehicles in B.C. Thanks to their partnership with the government, nearly 200,000 electric vehicles are now on B.C. roads today.

Please join me in congratulating the New Car Dealers Association for their continued leadership. Let’s make them all feel welcome in the House.

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert: It’s a great day here in the Legislature. I’m so excited to welcome some inspiring Canadian artists, artists who you may have seen. I hope you did. I know you know them, hon. Speaker. But for those who haven’t known them yet, surely you got a chance to see them at the Junos performing this past March.

We’re joined today by G-minor, Jazzy B, Chani Nattan, Inderpal Moga and their incredible teams. They’re here today. We’re celebrating their incredible successes, joining us here on the government side of the House.

You’re going to know them. You should know them, taking folk music, bhangra, turning it into something that is sweeping the globe. It’s a Punjabi wave and it’s a Canadian wave taking over the globe with this incredible music.

If you’ve been to a great wedding, a great birthday party, an incredible retirement — if you haven’t, you should — where this music is played…. I’ve tried my best to turn in the light bulbs and to do my moves, but I’ve got some work that I’ve got to do. They will quickly school you and teach you a lot.

So please welcome to our House incredible Canadian artists.

Korky Neufeld: Lots of important news this week. King Charles III visited Prince Charles Elementary in Abbotsford yesterday, and today King Charles III will open up the 45th parliament in Ottawa.

But more important than that, today is my wife’s birthday. A wise man once told me a smart husband never forgets his wife’s birthday but always forgets which one it is, so I would like the House to please help me wish my wife a happy 39th birthday.

[10:10 a.m.]

Hon. Ravi Kahlon: I want to join my friend the Minister of Tourism to welcome these amazing individuals. I don’t want to pick on one or two of them, but I’m going to pick on one or two of them. One is Jazzy B.

For all of us within the South Asian community that grew up celebrating our music and culture…. We in this building talk a lot about people who broke through the glass ceiling, people who paved a pathway for many of us to be able to do what we do and succeed in our society, overcoming huge obstacles and barriers.

Jazzy B is that person. I’ve never had the honour of meeting Jazzy B, but I hope to meet him

celebrating our music and culture.

We in this building talk a lot about people who broke through the glass ceiling, people who paved a pathway for many of us to be able to do what we do and succeed in our society, overcoming huge obstacles and barriers. Jazzy B is that person.

I’ve never had the honour of meeting Jazzy B, but I hope to meet him today. He has broken the glass ceiling and given opportunities to many artists, whether he knows it or not, and I want to recognize him.

The other one I want to recognize is Chani Nattan. Yes, he’s a famous musician now, but I know him from a time when he was a young man, wanting to do a good thing in his community. He was organizing toy drives with his friends to ensure that kids around the holiday season had toys. Not only is he an amazing artist, but he’s an amazing human being. Him and Inderpal and GMINXR — they’re doing amazing things to give young people hope in our communities and show them that there are multiple paths to be successful.

On behalf of my colleagues, I just want to raise my hands to them and hope everyone can please welcome them today.

Harman Bhangu: I have the engine that makes me tick here today: my family — my wife, Courtney, my daughter Audriana and my son Bal, who happens to be a huge fan of you, Hon. Speaker. I want to thank you for having him in. He got a picture and sent it to my mom. She’s really happy. He actually probably likes the fact that you get to yell at me.

Thank you very much for the hospitality. Please make them feel very welcome.

Jessie Sunner: I have two introductions today.

The first: I am so lucky to be joined in the gallery today by my father-in-law, Darshan, and my mother-in-law, Jackie. Today they have brought my niece, Ava Grace, who is joining us in the House for the first time. Her sister was here a few months earlier, but today she’ll be getting to tour the parliament, the Legislature, and get to eat lunch with us later, so I’m looking forward to that.

I’d also like to jump on the bandwagon a bit and welcome the team that’s here today that was mentioned already, but also mention the 5X team. They — Jazzy B, Chani Nattan, GMINXR, Inderpal Moga — also are involved with the 5X team. I spoke about them yesterday. They’re an amazing organization that’s really bringing Punjabi music to the forefront.

I want to welcome the executive director, Harpo Mander, into the House as well, and also give a shout-out to Chani Nattan and Jazzy B, again, who are constituents of mine — or Jazzy B, at least, was, and maybe has moved now.

I just want to welcome them into the House. I look forward to seeing them later and really sharing the power of Punjabi music and bhangra music with the world on an international stage.

Bruce Banman: I just have to say to the Minister of Housing, I actually have met Jazzy B. Jazzy B is an Abbotsford homeboy.

Long before he was in Surrey, he was from Abbotsford. Then he went to London, and I have had the distinct pleasure of not only meeting him but performing on stage with him when I was the mayor. He is as gracious and as humble as you can imagine, in spite of all his fame. He is the real deal, and it is an honour to have him from Abbotsford.

I look forward to getting on stage and singing with you once again, Jazzy B. Thank you very much.

Amna Shah: I’m so pleased to welcome two very special guests from Together We Can recovery society. In the gallery today, we’ve got Steven Hall, who’s the public relations manager, and Amar Radhawa, who’s a caseworker and also an alumni-engagement coordinator.

Stephen and Ammar are the unsung heroes when it comes to helping people with their recovery journey. The amount of effort that they put in, with their wealth of knowledge and their boundless compassion, is making waves across our community.

I want to thank them so much for the work that they do, and I hope that the House will join me in making them feel very welcome.

[10:15 a.m.]

Heather Maahs: It is my pleasure to welcome Mount Cheam School high school students to the House today. We have Caroline Van Saane, Joanne De Rover — these are their escorts and teacher — Jordan Guliker, Marcus Neels, Owen Pannekoek and Stefan Neels.

Please make them welcome.

Sunita Dhir: I rise today to welcome Vancouver school board trustee and board chair

Jordan Guliker, Marcus Neels, Owen Pannekoek and Stefan Neels.

Please make them welcome.

Sunita Dhir: I rise today to welcome Vancouver school board trustee and board chair Victoria Jung, as well as Bobby MacDonald, manager of community engagement and government relations at Union Gospel Mission in Vancouver. I deeply appreciate the meaningful work they’re doing.

I just noticed that my good friend Mr. Amritpal Singh Todt and Amit Sipani are sitting in the gallery. I welcome them to the House.

And I am not going to sit down without welcoming my favourite Punjabi artist, Jazzy B. He has put Punjabi music on the charts literally. Thank you so much.

I request that everybody make all my guests feel welcome here today.

Steve Kooner: I’d like to welcome the artists up there. I come from a singing family myself, and Jazzy B did sing part of my dad’s song about 30 years ago. I really appreciated that. I want to just welcome Jazzy B and also Sabi Kooner, Inderpal Moga, Chani Nattan, who I know from the community, Harpo Mander and also a few friends up there, Ike Seikong, Navjal Hall and Papinder Hundal, who I went to SFU with. I think that’s about it.

Hon. Lisa Beare: I have a couple of amazing guests here. Actually, we all have a couple of amazing guests here. The chair of the Vancouver School Board, Victoria Jung, accompanied by Bobby MacDonald, manager of community engagement and government relations out of the Vancouver school board.

I get the opportunity to spend the lunch hour with them today.

But really, I also wanted to share my heartfelt thanks to the Vancouver school board and their entire team for the work they’ve done this month in what has been an incredibly challenging month for the school community. Thank you so much to the board.

Would the House please make them feel very welcome.

Misty Van Popta: I stand today to make a little boast about a school in my riding. This past week I attended their local PAC AGM, where I learned some exciting information.

James Kennedy Elementary has participated in the Heart and Stroke Jump Rope for Heart campaign since 2012. In that time, they have raised a total of $144,000, but this year they topped it all, raising a whopping $19,000, making them the highest fundraising school in all of Canada. Not just B.C., in all of Canada. What an accomplishment.

Will the House help congratulate James Kennedy Elementary.

Dana Lajeunesse: Today it’s my pleasure to welcome a very good friend of mine and former executive director of the Sooke Fine Arts Society, Terry Moore, and her partner, Steve Short. Terry follows in the footsteps of her parents, Vern and Martha Moore, who were incredible volunteers in Sooke.

Terry has followed in their footsteps and created the Sooke Fine Arts Show. Actually, she didn’t create it, but she turned it into what it is today, with her amazing volunteer corps that she led.

This year the fine arts show will be celebrating its 39th anniversary. It’s the longest-running juried art show on Vancouver Island. I would encourage everyone to look it up and come and see it. There’s something there for everyone.

Welcome, Terry and Steve.

Linda Hepner: It was not my intention to stand, but when I see Jazzy B in the gallery with all the wonderful musicians, I am reminded of the time when he moved to Surrey. He often performed in Surrey, and I had the great pleasure of his company over dinner with the then councillor Tom Gill and myself.

[10:20 a.m.]

So welcome one more time in the gallery to all of the wonderful musicians here today.

of his company over dinner with then councillor Tom Gill and myself. So welcome one more time in the gallery to all of the wonderful musicians here today.

Hon. Ravi Parmar: It’s clear that we’re all starstruck here today by the incredible talent that’s here. I’m not going to talk about the times where I had Jazzy B on my iPod, and the pride of Victoria, Gminxr, is in the house as well.

I’ve got three sets of introductions. We’ve got some forestry students from UBC. I met them at the truck loggers convention a few months back, and they’ve been great individuals, providing me advice and guidance as I’ve taken on this role. We’ve got Hailey Schmidt, Shaojie Huang and Rosalia Jaffray. I’m looking forward to meeting with them later today.

From Langford-Highlands, I’ve got captain Shafik Rahman, a volunteer extraordinaire during the campaign. I don’t know if Shafik has made it into the House yet. There he is. Always good to see you, my friend. Looking forward to seeing you later today.

And I’ve also got the Ministry of Forests communications team in the House here as well, led by veteran referee for the Western Lacrosse Association — I didn’t know that till this Friday, when I was at the Shamrocks game — Andy Watson, who’s the communications director. We’ve got Rachel Munro, Erin Hughes, Tyler Fleming, Flamur Gruda and Stephen Binder.

The House, please join me in making them all feel very welcome.

Hon. Spencer Chandra Herbert: Late breaking from my ministry, we have six of our incredible public servants — Jacqueline Midgett, Cindy Shang, Daniel Hitchen, Cassie Rimek, Jessica Beswick and Chelsea Wood — here in the House. They appreciate when I’m brief, so I’ll be brief and say: welcome to your House.

Steve Kooner: I forgot two or three names, so I’m just going to shout out to Verdun, Seycon, Navjahal, and Amrpal Dhot. Please welcome them. Thank you.

Hon. Ravi Kahlon: Lots of introductions today.

I did want to especially recognize another individual. We were talking about people who broke the glass ceiling, people who have paved the way.

We’ve got Bhupinder Hundal here, who’s the news director from Global News. Those of us that have had interactions with him know him from when he was at CBC. He also did a lot of work with Omni News, on the Omni News Punjabi show, and led that work.

But other things that you might not know is he also is a Queen’s Diamond Jubilee winner. He also was instrumental in the Punjabi hockey night in Canada that we see on TV that fills us with lots of pride.

I understand he’s here today to make sure that Richard Zussman and Keith Baldrey actually work when they’re in this building. My friends in the building will know today he was carrying two cameras, running down the hall. That’s how much he was working today, because he knew his news director was in the House.

So please join me in welcoming Bhupinder Hundal to the House today.

Mandeep Dhaliwal: Yes, all Surrey here. All turban guys here.

Especially thank you Mr. Dhot and Navjahal and Jazzy B padi, our big singer, because I listen to his songs during my quality time. [A language other than English was spoken.]

Especially thank you, [a language other than English was spoken.] Thank you to everybody. Thank you all, Surrey.

Paul Choi: I’ll be really quick. I just want to say that we have delegates from Indo-Pacific Foundation of Canada that are joining us today, led by Bhaksar Di. If I can get the whole House to give them a warm welcome.

The Speaker: Anybody else who wants to welcome Jazzy B?

Jazzy B, we all love you. Thank you for coming — and your team.

Teresa Wat: I hope that Bhupinder Hundal remembers me. I remember I recruited you as a young researcher after you graduated from BCIT, right? He joined me when I was the news director of Channel M, the first ever multicultural TV news program in B.C. It started the Punjabi news, Cantonese news, and Mandarin news. He was a young researcher.

I’m so glad to see you rise all the way up to the top. Welcome here.

[10:25 a.m.]

Members’ Statements

Peter Milobar: Some people sing their two-minute statements. I will not be singing a Jazzy B song here today.

Members’ Statements

Role of MLAs

Peter Milobar: Some people sing their two-minute statements. I will not be singing a Jazzy B song here today.

The Speaker: Thank you. We can ask Jazzy B to sing for you.

Peter Milobar: As I reflect on this latest session we’ve had and the record number of new MLAs here, it made me think back to the privilege it is for all 93 of us to be in this place and what really brought us here, be it years of advocacy before we got here and talking in our communities and with people so that people felt they knew who we were and what they were sending on behalf of themselves to represent their part of the province, be it advocates for the business community, be it strong-held views in the union movements, strong-held views in social justice, strong-held views on the environment or strong-held views and allyship with First Nations around our province.

We’ve all been sent here. Before we were here, we were probably like everyone else in this province. We would sit around in groups like the other five-plus million people, talk about events of the day, talk about how things could be done differently or better or what I would do if I was there, what actions I would take, what I would stand for if I was ever in the Legislature and a legislator.

We talk about privilege a lot in this place, and it is a privilege for us to serve. The big privilege that we all actually have is that unlike those coffee groups out there that discuss these issues or send us here based on those issues — like I say, around business, unions, social justice, environment or First Nations issues — our true privilege is that we get to actually take our words and turn them into a tangible vote in this place based on those backgrounds that we all come from.

So as we reflect on that as legislators, I think it’s appropriate, given the record number of new people here, that we never lose sight of what actually sent us here in the first place and the expectations of people that we are representing from our home communities.

Sexual Assault Prevention Month

Jennifer Blatherwick: I rise today to recognize that May is Sexual Assault Prevention Month in Canada. I will pause for a moment if anyone who is listening would like to step away.

Speaking of this topic can feel dark and heavy and serious. Along with the incident, survivors can carry guilt, shame, ongoing trauma and pain. Right now, it can seem like the whole world is reinforcing that dark cloud.

If you are a survivor who is listening, you did nothing wrong. You did not cause this by what you were wearing, by how you laughed, by where you walked, by how many drinks you had or by being who you are. It is not your fault. And you are not alone.

Every day, many people are there to help break down the silence and stigma around sexual assault and light the path to safety and healing. Every survivor’s journey looks different, and the act of reaching out for support is a step forward. If the grief is sharp-edged still, it may seem impossible to carry. Reach out, and people will be there.

We thank the dedicated community organizations, advocacy groups, sexual assault centres, victim services and transition houses who are there to support you with expertise and compassion. You can call or text VictimLinkBC’s 24-hour crisis and information line at 1-800-563-0808 to connect with those vital services in your community in over 150 languages.

The sun will shine again. There is laughter and love. Because you are here and that is worth all of the joy in the world, and we will celebrate your existence and fight for your safety.

[10:30 a.m.]

Big Brothers Big Sisters of Langley

Jody Toor: I rise today with a full heart after attending the annual general meeting and volunteer and supporter appreciation night hosted by Big Brothers Big Sisters of Langley. It was truly a moving evening, one filled with stories of kindness, resilience and the incredible power of human connection.

I had the privilege of hearing directly from the mentors, big brothers and big sisters, who pour their hearts into this work. These are everyday heroes who show up week after week

evening, one filled with stories of kindness, resilience and the incredible power of human connection.

I had the privilege of hearing directly from the mentors, big brother and big sisters, who pour their hearts into this work. These are everyday heroes who show up, week after week, for young people who need someone in their corner. They offer more than just time. They offer belief, encouragement and the kind of steady support that can change a young person’s life forever.

This year alone their programs have reached over 400 children and youth in my community of Langley-Willowbrook, creating more than 300 new mentoring relationships. Behind each number is a child who feels seen, valued and uplifted.

From after-school hangouts to shared laughter at a concert or a soccer game, these moments may seem small, but they are a building block of hope, confidence and a brighter future. It was incredibly heartwarming to see the genuine joy and love in the room that evening.

To the staff who work tirelessly behind the scenes, to the mentors who give so selflessly and to the supporters who make it all possible, thank you. Your compassion is helping our young people see their own strength and potential.

Big Brothers Big Sisters of Langley is not just building matches. They’re building a community, where every child has a chance to thrive, and that is something truly worth celebrating.

Iqra Robotics Team

Amna Shah: Earlier this month a group of six remarkable students from Iqra School, which is in my riding, represented Canada on the international stage at the First LEGO League World Challenge, a robotics tournament held in Korinthos, Greece.

The Iqra Robotics team includes Bayan Ramadan, Faiha Raza, Maryam Khan, Shedli Khsi, Tahsin Ahmad and Zubair Raihan. These students joined others from over 50 countries in a global competition of science, technology and imagination.

Out of more than 175,000 teams worldwide, Iqra Robotics was the only Canadian team to make it to the world stage, and they did so in their first year of competition. They placed in the top eight in the Alliances Cup, standing shoulder to shoulder with the brightest young minds from across the globe.

What is their innovation, you ask? It’s a robot, a robot inspired by NASA’s Mars rover transformed into an underwater submersible, equipped with Raspberry Pi– and AI-powered cameras to discover and identify marine life.

At an age where most are still learning the basics, these students are pushing the boundaries of what’s possible. Among them was Shedli, a grade 4 student, the youngest competitor in the entire world’s league. Imagine that: a child from our community standing on a global stage, showing the world what Canadian youth can do.

Behind them stood a team of dedicated coaches – Ramzi, Aya, Zainab, Shameer, Zina and Sana – and a school and a community who believed in them every step of the way.

This is more than just a robotics success. It is a story of vision, teamwork and the boundless potential of our youth. The Iqra Robotics team is a symbol of what our next generation is capable of when we encourage and fully support their dreams.

Boothroyd Heritage House

Linda Hepner: Tucked away in a quiet residential area of West Cloverdale, part of my Surrey–Serpentine River riding, is a Boothroyd heritage house. Built in 1873 and restored in 2007, the house is now home to a cozy coffee shop. It also serves as my meeting place for constituents as I await the Legislature’s process of finalizing office space for a new riding.

Boothroyd is the oldest building in the Surrey centre area, the city’s first true town centre, and is a valuable link for Surrey’s first development.

When pioneer settler George Boothroyd built his family home here, the Boothroyds were only the second family to settle in this area of Surrey. In fact, Boothroyd’s home predates road construction in Surrey, and the house is valued as a reminder of building methods for construction early in the community’s development.

[10:35 a.m.]

The original portion of the house was built of logs, and finishing lumber for the house was milled in nearby communities and floated along the Fraser River and the Nicomekl River, before then being hauled to the building site.

the original portion of the house is built of logs, and finishing lumber for the house was milled in nearby communities and floated along the Fraser River and the Nicomekl River before then being hauled to the building site.

The house today remains a testament to the difficulty of construction in this once remote area and the absolute determination of its early settlers. The history of the house is one of a kind, and it lends itself to the one-of-a-kind coffee house that is now a favourite among the locals. Come by and enjoy the perfect marriage of yesterday and today.

Indo-Pacific Foundation
of Canada Multicultural Events

Paul Choi: I rise today to recognize the extraordinary work of the Indo-Pacific Foundation of Canada, led by founder and CEO Bhhaskar De, and to celebrate the spirit of multiculturalism blossoming right here in B.C.

On April 12, 2025, the foundation hosted Harmony of Cultures, a groundbreaking gathering that welcomed more than a thousand neighbours from the Chinese, South Asian, Korean, and Filipino communities. Months of grassroots planning turned four cultural pavilions into living classrooms. We saw Chinese line dancers, Filipino performers, Punjabi bhangra and heartbeat of Korean drummers sharing a single stage.

Youth and elders cooked, volunteered and celebrated side by side. This was far more than a festival. It was cultural diversity in action — proof that when we move beyond coexistence to co-creation, we strengthen the very fabric of our province.

Building on that success, the foundation is now preparing for the Parade of Nations at Swangard Stadium on June 27, 2026. Ten Indo-Pacific countries — China, India, Korea, Philippines, Vietnam, Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and Japan — will fill our stadium with floats, traditional bands, and street dance showcases. Burnaby’s own diversity makes it a perfect home for this flagship celebration, one that can grow year after year and position B.C. as a global leader in cultural harmony.

I invite all British Columbians to mark June 27 next year on their calendars to join us at Swangard Stadium for a celebration where every culture is seen, heard and celebrated. So let us commit to supporting the movement so that the harmony we witness in April becomes the soundtrack of our province’s future.

Oral Questions

Economic Conditions and
Government Policies

John Rustad: Private sector investment is down. Youth unemployment is up. Corporate tax revenue is down.

Will this government admit that their economic agenda has been a total failure?

Hon. Brenda Bailey: It’s without question that we have been through economic challenges, and this has been the case globally. That is all the reason it’s so important that we continue to be deeply focused on economic growth, and that is the focus of this government. You’ve seen us identify projects that we can accelerate and pull through.

This is a time when it’s about building our province stronger, facing the threats that we’re seeing globally, and I welcome the opposition to join us in this important work.

The Speaker: Leader of the Official Opposition, supplemental.

John Rustad: Look, business confidence is down. Food bank usage is up. Hope for the future in B.C. is down, with close to half of the youth wanting to leave British Columbia. And quite frankly, after eight years of dismal failure, the Premier’s response is: “Trust us.” But even First Nation leaders see through the Premier and are calling him, and I quote, “a snake oil salesman.”

The Speaker: Member, we should not be using words even if used by the other party inside the House, because it is still unparliamentary language.

John Rustad: I take your direction. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

[10:40 a.m.]

Given, quite frankly, this dismal record and its eight years that have built up the challenges that we face today, why would anybody trust this Premier with additional powers from this legislature?

Hon. Brenda Bailey: Our province has been through tough times, without question.

we face today.

Why would anybody trust this Premier with additional powers from this Legislature?

Hon. Brenda Bailey: Our province has been through tough times, without question, and we, every step of the way, have stood up for British Columbians. We stood up for British Columbians through the pandemic and took care of them better than any other province. We stood up for British Columbians on the aftermath of that. When we saw inflation, when we saw supply chain challenges, all of that, we continued to stand up for British Columbians.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Members.

Hon. Brenda Bailey: And we know the other side would take different choices. We will continue to fight for British Columbians. This moment in time, our Premier is showing…

Interjections.

The Speaker: Shh, shh, shh. Members.

Hon. Brenda Bailey: …incredible leadership and showing us how British Columbia can become the absolute economic engine for Canada. That is the leadership that we are seeing from our Premier right now, to the Prime Minister, our Premier right now to the tables he sits at.

We are opening doors for businesses. We are opening doors for investments all the time, while we’re standing up for British Columbians.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Members, come to order.

Hon. Brenda Bailey: And we will continue to lead.

The Speaker: Members, you will remember our parents always taught us not to disrupt others when somebody else is speaking.

Government Policies on
Energy and Pipeline Projects

Gavin Dew: Leadership, choices, opening doors. Prime Minister Carney and his new Liberal government have said that Canada’s economic strength is underpinned by Canadian energy and that Canada has tremendous opportunity to be the world’s leading energy superpower in both clean and conventional energy.

But the Premier seems to have a different position on oil pipelines depending on who he’s talking to. At the Western Premiers Conference, he agreed that “western Premiers are committed to developing economic corridors to facilitate the free flow of trade, including access to tidewater.” But right after the meeting, he was quoted as saying: “No, we’re opposed to pipelines.”

So which is it? Does the Premier support pipelines to tidewater or not?

Hon. Adrian Dix: In their questions today, the opposition is asking questions about economic growth and economic development in B.C.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Members, let’s not be too cheeky about this. It’s a serious question, Members. Let’s hear the minister’s answer.

Hon. Adrian Dix: In February, the Premier identified 18 priority projects for B.C. The opposition is against at least 11 of them. In British Columbia, we have been promoting, focused on, issues of community support, of community benefits, of worker benefits, of climate change and of First Nations benefits. LNG projects.

The member was a Liberal activist, I think, for a decade before he converted. And he’ll know how successful his party was in campaigning on LNG. They were very successful in campaigning on LNG. They didn’t deliver any LNG projects. A big zero.

Our approach is different. We have focused on the interests of British Columbia and delivered so far, under construction, three LNG projects worth a capex of $42 billion. We are currently working with the province of Alberta together to focus on our joint priorities of an intertie between B.C. and Alberta.

The Speaker: Thank you, Minister.

Hon. Adrian Dix: The member talks about projects that don’t yet exist. We will take action on projects that don’t exist when they exist.

[10:45 a.m.]

that don’t exist when they exist.

The Speaker: The member has a supplemental.

Gavin Dew: I’m glad that the minister brought up projects that exist. I also would note that he completely evaded the question. How can British Columbians expect to get a straight answer or any leadership from this government when the NDP caucus is so clearly divided and at war with their own base?

The Premier and the Energy Minister have said they fully support dredging Burrard Inlet for oil tankers. That is a real project. But when I asked the Minister of Jobs, Economic Development and Innovation whether she supported it in estimates, she would not say if she agrees.

At least six NDP cabinet ministers built their political careers on opposing pipelines. Will any of those MLAs now stand up and confirm their support for dredging Burrard Inlet for oil tankers, or will they all hide behind cabinet solidarity and hope the media doesn’t ask them?

Will the Attorney General stand up? Will the Minister of Infrastructure stand up? Will the Minister of Indigenous Relations and Reconciliation stand up? Will the Minister of Emergency Management and Climate Readiness stand up? Will the Minister of State for Local Government and Rural Communities stand up? Or will the Minister of Energy stand up again and give another non-answer?

Hon. Adrian Dix: The position of the government is clear on this matter. We had a debate in estimates. I appreciate…. And we’ll move on to the question of divided caucuses in a moment.

But, clearly and straightforwardly, the Premier and I have said on this federal proposal to dredge Burrard Inlet that we built this pipeline. We built it for, as the member will know, $34 billion. This country built it. The revenues from the pipeline pay for about 50 percent of the cost of the pipeline — 50 percent — which is unlike any other pipeline in the world. So it’s truly our pipeline, paid for in large measure by taxpayers everywhere in the country.

It’s our position that it’s built, and that it should be used fully. That’s why we have been supportive, consistent with federal environmental law and Fisheries and Oceans regulation and everything else. We’ve been supportive of the project because we think people should get full value for it.

I used to be sitting in this House just down the way. Last week, the opposition called for a general election. We know why they want a general election. It’s the worst-kept secret in Victoria that Conservative caucus meetings are like scenes out of Rollerball.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Thank you, Minister.

Hon. Adrian Dix: We understand why they want a general election — because it gives them an opportunity not to be together for 28 days. All I can say is: can’t you all just get along?

Oil and Gas Industry Royalties

Jeremy Valeriote: Nice to be on topic for a change. Our discussions about securing new energy sources for the energy transition have included a focus on free market competition and a level playing field, but for decades, B.C. taxpayers have been subsidizing the oil and gas industry in B.C.

In 2022, the province announced a transition to a new oil and gas royalty system with the goal of collecting 50 percent of profits after production costs. We know the new royalty transition period has been extended by another two years.

My question is to the Minister of Energy and Climate Solutions: following this delay in the new framework, can the minister confirm if the intention is still to secure 50 percent of profits from oil and gas producers so that British Columbians are assured to receive a fair share of profits from these publicly owned energy resources?

[10:50 a.m.]

Hon. Adrian Dix: It’s consistently the position of the government to maximize the return to the people of British Columbia, as is the position of other provinces. It’s one of the reasons why we’re working closely with the province of Alberta on joint initiatives to ensure that we act together in this country on energy initiatives to the maximum degree possible to maximize the return.

That’s not the only step. We are proceeding with our royalty changes, working closely with the community, with First Nations people and

that we act together in this country on energy initiatives to the maximum degree possible to maximize the return.

That’s not the only step. We are proceeding with our royalty changes, working closely with the community, with First Nations people and with industry. We’re proceeding with our advancement of the healer program. We’re proceeding to maximize the return to communities, and we’re proceeding to address issues of climate change.

I am proud. I want to acknowledge the role of the oil and gas industry in the reduction of methane emissions, which makes our LNG the lowest-emission LNG in the world. We do it because we are electrifying LNG projects such as Cedar in Kitimat. We are also taking actions to reduce emissions — a 42 percent reduction since 2015, and we’re going for 75 percent by 2030.

The Speaker: Member, supplemental.

B.C. Hydro Changes to
Self-Generation Program

Jeremy Valeriote: When it comes to the future of our energy security, we can’t miss this opportunity to empower individuals and communities to take part in the calls for power and gain energy independence.

Net-metering programs allow individuals to generate their own renewable electricity and sell it back to the grid in exchange for credits. But B.C. Hydro is currently proposing changes to this program that drastically undervalue small-scale renewable energy and lock in inequity for decades to come. Proposed changes from B.C. Hydro for fixed-rate billing instead of net metering would remove any benefit to individuals and communities, ultimately weakening B.C.’s energy security.

The question again to the Minister of Energy: can the minister ensure that net metering remains viable in this province? Will he provide the necessary long-term policy protection that small-scale energy projects need to survive?

Hon. Adrian Dix: I think this is an extraordinary period of opportunity in renewable energy in B.C. Both for First Nations…. The member will know that in the recent call for power, we have ten projects, nine of which are 51 percent–owned by First Nations and one of which is 49 percent–owned. That means returns from energy projects that help the climate and energize B.C. that return to communities.

Equally, the member is criticizing B.C. Hydro programs that have been established in recent years that give opportunities to homeowners to participate as well. We see a full energy program as doing all of these things. It’s having opportunity to fuel B.C.’s economy.

That’s why we’re proposing, for example, a second call for power. That’s why we’re proposing a call for expression of interest on firm power. That’s why we’re proposing a call for expression of interest on issues of conservation, which focus on affordability for people in the community.

We believe in clean energy in this House. We believe in clean energy in this province. We see it as fueling the economy in B.C. in communities with programs that support homeowners and fuel communities with projects that create jobs and build our province. I’m very proud of our record, and we’re going to continue to do that.

Government Management of
Infrastructure Projects

Harman Bhangu: First, it was the dump truck operators who weren’t getting paid on the Highway 1 project. Now Mainland Sand and Gravel, one of the largest aggregate suppliers in the Lower Mainland, is owed $1.74 million on a ministry job.

This isn’t a minor delay. This is a ministry job that’s behind on payments to a key supplier in B.C.’s construction sector. If companies like Mainland start refusing to supply materials for ministry projects because they can’t trust they’ll get paid, what happens to our infrastructure timelines then?

My question to the minister: how does this government expect to deliver major infrastructure projects on time, on budget, when even its most critical suppliers are left waiting for millions of dollars?

Hon. Mike Farnworth: I appreciate the question from the member. I want to assure the member of two things.

One, suppliers do get paid. They always get paid. The province pays its bills.

Second, in terms of building infrastructure projects, the record of this government is unparalleled when it comes to investing in our communities right across the province.

Interjections.

Hon. Mike Farnworth: Oh my god. He says not a single….

[10:55 a.m.]

So $5.9 billion SkyTrain project, Surrey to Langley. And 16 kilometres of track, eight stations. It’s going to make it easier to get from Langley City to Surrey Centre in 22 minutes to Vancouver in under an hour. That’s

SkyTrain project, Surrey to Langley. Sixteen kilometres of track, eight stations. It’s going to make it easier to get from Langley city to Surrey centre, in 22 minutes, to Vancouver in under an hour. That’s investment.

Interjection.

The Speaker: Member for Langley-Abbotsford.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Members.

Hon. Mike Farnworth: Later this year a brand-new four-lane Pattullo Bridge, almost twice the size of the existing one, is going to make it easier for vehicle traffic between Surrey and New Westminster, spurring economic growth.

I can tell you, we are going to make investments like that right across this province, building communities, building the economy, training the next generation of provinces, because we have faith in this community.

They vote against these things every single time. And guess what. That’s why we’re here and they’re over there.

Economic Diversification and
Asia Trade Offices

Larry Neufeld: Thank you to my honoured colleagues, who I genuinely and honestly appreciate spending time with.

My question is with respect to economic diversification. Exports from British Columbia to Asian markets are down significantly, which coincides with the closure of our 13 freestanding Asian trade offices. This government’s dismal economic record requires the Premier to go on a damage control junket to Asia this week.

Does the Premier really think that a junket makes up for the damage done by closing these independent trade offices?

Hon. Diana Gibson: I thank the member opposite for the opportunity to once again correct the misinformation about our trade offices. It is inaccurate.

We have kept and opened even new trade offices in Mexico, Taiwan and Vietnam and, in fact, have seen exports up in multiple markets. We have over 50 Trade and Invest officers in over 14 different markets that are working every day to increase our trade opportunities for B.C. businesses and, in fact, have Trade and Invest officers bringing investors to Web Summit Vancouver this week. We continue to see really important opportunities for B.C. businesses in markets around the world.

The reason we are going on the Asia mission is because opportunities with Japan, Malaysia and Korea are up, and those businesses are really interested in attending that trade mission and joining us to increase our trade with Japan, which is one of our largest trade partners.

Government Support
for Forest Industry

Sheldon Clare: British Columbia forest companies have been investing in the last eight years. The only problem is that they’ve been investing most of that money into the United States markets. This government has done nothing to attract and retain significant forestry investment in British Columbia.

We can understand the need to protect the film industry. However, forest workers want to know why their industry did not get similar or the same support in this year’s budget.

Hon. Ravi Parmar: What an opportunity to be able to stand in the House and talk about our forest sector here in British Columbia, which has grown our economy and grown British Columbia for the last 100 years and will be for the next 100 years, and to be able to share with the members opposite that last week we had some really good news.

Gorman Brothers is investing $120 million to purchase the Weyerhaeuser operation in Princeton. I don’t know about you, but that delivers good news for forest sector workers in Princeton and the Okanagan.

I have been dying, dying, to get a question in this House on forestry, because it provides me an opportunity to respond directly to the Leader of the Opposition. I sent him a letter last month asking him to clarify comments made by his MLA for North Island. His MLA referred to First Nations buying tenure as being greedy, absolutely reprehensible. I sent him a letter.

He can duck, he can dodge, but will the MLA for North Island have the courage to stand up in this House and ask me a question on forestry after she, in her own community…

The Speaker: Member.

Hon. Ravi Parmar: …referred to her own nations as being greedy for buying tenure and supporting our Forest Service?

[11:00 a.m.]

Kiel Giddens: When this government took office in 2017, the youth unemployment rate was 7 percent. Today, after eight years of economic mismanagement, it’s doubled — 14 percent. That’s 60,000 people looking for work and finding

Youth Employment

Kiel Giddens: When this government took office in 2017 the youth unemployment rate was 7 percent. Today, after eight years of economic mismanagement, it’s doubled — 14 percent. That’s 60,000 people looking for work and finding nothing. They’re losing hope, and they’re packing their bags to Alberta.

How long will this Premier ignore an entire generation struggling to find opportunity, and when will he deliver a real economic plan for young people in this province?

Hon. Diana Gibson: First, I want to say I know how hard it is for youth to get that first job, that first opportunity, and we do have programs for youth wanting to access the job market. But it’s also important to recognize youth unemployment is up everywhere, and B.C. has been leading the country around employment.

We bucked the trend in the last jobs’ announcements for the past few months, including in manufacturing, which was down across the country but still up in B.C. It’s because our government’s been at the table with our youth in manufacturing jobs program, with our manufacturing jobs fund, leveraging investments seven to one in our manufacturing jobs fund to bring investment and jobs here to B.C.

We’ve been bucking some of the trends in national jobs. We still continue to be below the national average in unemployment, but there’s a lot more to do, for us to continue to be at the table to see those jobs and investment dollars here in B.C. so that we can keep our employment and our young people working.

Status of Joffre Lakes
Provincial Park

Scott McInnis: Joffre Lakes isn’t just a provincial park. It’s a major tourism draw that supports small businesses and communities like Pemberton and Whistler. According to the B.C. Parks website, it is supposed to be open “year-round.” This is most certainly not the case. This government is allowing a public park to be closed to the public for nearly one-third of the year.

Can this government communicate to businesses and the public today how long Joffre Lakes Park will be closed, moving forward?

Hon. Laanas / Tamara Davidson: Thank you to the member for this question.

I think it’s really important that we have very clear direction and answers, particularly when it comes to our B.C. parks. So many people absolutely love getting out into B.C. parks, and we are working hard to make sure that we have the best experience available for those people that are hiking and walking and taking part.

We are working hand in hand on conservation and reconciliation. We are working with Joffrey Lakes B.C. Parks staff. There’s one trail in and one trail out. When the park was established we needed to make sure that we had visitor safety as one of the biggest things. There’s a very narrow road that goes to Joffre Lake. Previously we saw up to 2,000 visitors a day, parking on the side of the highway and making it a safety risk for others.

We’re working directly with B.C. Parks; we’re working directly with our First Nations partners, and ensuring that it’s the best experience.

Illicit Drug Use in
Public Spaces and
Impact on Businesses

Heather Maahs: Des Soumang runs Alpine Refrigeration in Chilliwack, surrounded by shelters, supportive housing and an overdose prevention site. Every day he and his neighbouring businesses, Simpson Auto, Camp River Woodworking, Pete and Son Plumbing and the Bottle Depot, clean up needles, garbage and human excrement. Clients are afraid to get out of their cars. No one feels safe.

When will this government stop enabling open drug use and trafficking and start supporting the small businesses that drive our economy?

[11:05 a.m.]

Hon. Ravi Kahlon: First off, I have to correct the member. Nobody’s encouraging open drug trafficking. The member has false information here. I think the member should retract that comment.

But I’m not sure where the opposition is. I’m not sure where the B.C. Conservatives are. Sometimes I hear from them that we need more housing for vulnerable people. Then in the next question period, we hear from them about how we shouldn’t have it.

the member has false information here. I think the member should retract that comment. The member should retract that comment.

But I’m not sure where the opposition is. I’m not sure where the B.C. Conservatives are. Sometimes I hear from them that we need more housing for vulnerable people. Then in the next question period we hear from them about how we shouldn’t have it. Sometimes we hear we need more resources. Sometimes they say it’s too many resources in one area. They can’t get their story right.

There are vulnerable people from the community that need support. I know they used to have an MLA that was a champion for not only the community but making sure that all voices were heard. Perhaps that’s not there now. Perhaps this member cares very little on how vulnerable people are treated and where they go.

We’re going to continue to support community. We’re going to continue to work with local government. We are going to continue to work to ensure that all people have the….

Interjections.

The Speaker: Shhh. Shhh. Members, enough.

Minister.

Hon. Ravi Kahlon: I hear from this House how many people are members who believe in faith, but when it comes to the most vulnerable people, I do not hear that. I do not hear that back in the questions.

We are going to continue to support vulnerable people in every community in this province. We are going to continue to make historic investments because we know these people deserve a roof over their heads.

Government Performance

Peter Milobar: Well, back in the day when someone would roll into town and try to sell people a bill of goods on a product or an item and it was totally way over-inflated, there was a certain expression used for that person. Apparently it’s unparliamentary — I won’t use it in this chamber — but it seems to be very fitting for this government today, because that’s exactly what we’ve been hearing.

We’re pointing out that business confidence is down. The government tries to pretend it’s not. Food bank usage is at record highs. The government tries to pretend it’s not. Hope for the future, by all polling, is down in B.C. All youth groups are saying that.

Youth unemployment is at record levels. It’s not our problem because it’s down in other places too. Well, youth in British Columbia want it addressed in British Columbia. They are not worried about other jurisdictions.

Corporate tax revenues are down, but not to hear from this government, even though it is in their own budget document. They will try to dodge and deny that.

And then, only this government could stand up and praise and crow about what they are building in infrastructure when every single project that was listed by the minister is behind schedule and over budget. That’s the crowning glory for this government — behind schedule, over budget.

The economic agenda is completely broken. It’s a complete failure. This government has lost the plot line completely. Yes.

You know what? We would love to have an election. You know why we would love to have an election? Because then they could be on this side of the House and we’d be on that side of the House.

When will the Premier put his money where his mouth is, stop being a flyby head salesperson blown into town and just call the election already instead of having all these games around Bill 15 and 14?

Interjections.

The Speaker: Members. Members. Now, the question has been asked. I really urge all members to be quiet now and listen to the answer.

Hon. Mike Farnworth: Well, I’m going to start off by saying this: hon. Member, in your dreams. Because four years from now, when we do go to the polls, we’ll be going to a poll as a government that has been focused on what matters to British Columbians. What matters to British Columbians….

The Speaker: Shhh. Members.

Hon. Mike Farnworth: Ensuring that young people get the training that they need, which is why we invest in the infrastructure projects that we do. To ensure….

Interjections.

The Speaker: Members. Member for Abbotsford South. Come to order.

Hon. Mike Farnworth: You know, if you ask the young pile driver that’s been busy pounding piles on the Steveston interchange, the apprenticeship that’s getting them a skill that’s going to give them a career for the rest of their lives, it’s going really well.

[11:10 a.m.]

When you’re talking about the young ironworker apprentice that’s working on the Pattullo Bridge, that’s learning the skills that’s going to give a career for a lifetime, they’re doing really well.

When you’re talking about the electrician that’s are building the new hospital in Vancouver, the hospital in Fort St. James, the hospital in Terrace, the hospitals right across this province, they’re doing really well.

that’s learning the skills that’s going to give a career for a lifetime. They’re doing really well.

When you’re talking about the electricians that are building the new hospital in Vancouver, the hospital in Fort St. James, the hospital in Terrace, the hospitals right across this province, they’re doing really well.

Interjections.

The Speaker: Shhh.

Hon. Mike Farnworth: Because I’ll tell you something else. When the Leader of the Opposition sat on this side of the House, they stripped apprenticeship training. They didn’t care about youth. They cut funding for adult education so that people couldn’t get the skills that they need.

We will go to an election on an agenda that’s focused on investment and the people of this province, which will ensure that we will, on this side of the House, and they will continue to dream from that side of the House.

[End of question period.]

Point of Order

Heather Maahs: I rise on a point of order. It is entirely out of order for the Minister of Housing to suggest that I, as the MLA of Chilliwack North, do not care about my constituents. I ask that he retract.

The Speaker: Thank you, Member.

During the debate, those questions were made. So we will continue to review our policies and instruct all members to be careful when they use their words in questioning and also in answering

Tabling Documents

The Speaker: I have the honour of tabling the three following reports: Chief Electoral Officer, the report October 19, 2024, Provincial General Election, Volume 1: Administration; two, Human Rights Commissioner’s report, Where We Stand: Recommendations Monitoring Report, 2017 to 2024; third one, Office of the Merit Commissioner, 2024-2025 annual report.

Orders of the Day

Hon. Mike Farnworth: In this chamber, I call continued debate for the estimates of the Minister of Finance. In the Douglas Fir Room, I call continued debate on the committee stage on Bill 15. And in the tiny House, Birch Room, I call continued committee stage debate on Bill 14.

[11:15 a.m.]

The House in Committee, Section A.

The committee met at 11:17 p.m.

[Mable Elmore in the chair.]

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Finance
(continued)

The Chair: I will call the committee to order, the Committee of Supply estimates continuing for the Ministry of Finance.

On Vote 26: ministry operations, $426,950,000 (continued).

Peter Milobar: I am hoping to get some clarity before lunch, and hopefully it does not take that long.

Yesterday when I was asking the minister about the $300 million in savings, I asked very clearly if the $300 million is not found, would the deficit grow to $11.2 billion. The minister said no, because it has already been booked in this year’s budget. I then asked whether or not that meant that if it was found, the deficit would drop to $10.6 billion. She said no, the deficit would stay at 10.9 billion because it has already been booked.

The minister seems to think that she didn’t say that. So I’m quoting now. The minister’s one answer: “We’re discussing the estimates from the budget, Budget ‘25. It includes $300 million of what we expect to be the initial results of an efficiency review. We are not able to share with the member decisions made on the efficiency review because they haven’t been made yet.”

She also said: “We’re talking about the budget, Budget ‘25, and it’s reflected in the budget as $300 million of savings. We expect to reach the $300 million mark.”

The minister in another answer: “Not at all. The $300 million is the initial savings that we have booked for the work that we are doing right now and will lead to that number or more. That work is going on right now.”

She says: “I think the member is struggling with what a budget is. A budget is a plan. It is a future-facing document, not a past-facing document. This plan very clearly includes $300 million in savings that is found throughout the items that we have already identified to the member. This is a plan. That is the work that is happening now. That is what a budget is. It’s a plan for the year, not a past-facing document; it’s a future-facing document.” Fair enough.

She then goes on and says: “The expenditure management controls for the member include STOB50, salaries; STOB57, travel; STOB60-61, professional services; STOB65, office and business expenses; STOB66, informational advertising; STOB68, statutory advertising and publications;

[11:20 a.m.]

Fair enough.

But she then goes on and says the expenditure management controls for the member include: STOB 50, salary; STOB 57, travel; STOB 60, 61, professional services; STOB 65, office and business expenses; STOB 66, informational advertising; STOB 68, statutory advertising and publications; STOB 73, amortization; STOB 75, tenant improvement; STOB 77, transfer grants; and STOB 80, transfer, shared or cost arrangements. Those are the STOBs that are identified in the expenditure management.

Can the minister explain to me how $300 million can be booked, can be accounted for in a budget, which means, to use round numbers, if they were planning on spending $101 million in one area, say STOB 50, they have now decided to spend $100 million on STOB 50, and that gets them $1 million of the $300 million in savings that they were looking for.

How is it possible in the financial realm to pass a budget predicated on having already found $300 million in savings and not be able to point to which STOBs have actually seen a reduction of what was originally planned before the budget went to print?

[11:25 a.m.]

Hon. Brenda Bailey: To the member opposite: if I wasn’t clear on this yesterday, I apologize. I’m going to do my best to be very clear in this response.

We have financial controls that have been set in place, and these allow us to book the $300 million. The commitment is made, and it must be achieved. It’s been booked in our budget. It’s not unusual to have savings identified in a budget. It’s been done before.

The important page I want to turn the member to, and we discussed it a little bit yesterday, is page 20 of the budget. There are two things, and I think some of the confusion is that they’re getting a little bit blended: expenditure management and program reviews.

Budget 2025 includes initial expenditure management goals across targets, across budget, totalling $1.5 billion across the fiscal plan period to be achieved through the management of administration and discretionary spending while still protecting critical front-line services people rely on. Expenditure management will continue through the ‘25-26 fiscal year and beyond.

Part 2. The Ministry of Finance will also be working with ministries to review all existing government programs and initiatives to optimize resources by ensuring that programs remain relevant, efficient and sustainable, grow the economy and keep costs low for British Columbians. That’s work that is underway.

Peter Milobar: Well here’s the problem with that. I’m glad the minister referenced page 20, because I was going to anyway. About a half hour before the minister referenced page 20 yesterday — so only a question or two before, at this rate, frankly — the minister said that we’re discussing the estimates from the Budget ‘25. It includes $300 million of what we expect to be in the initial results of the efficiency review.

[11:30 a.m.]

The efficiency review is part 2 of what the minister just read on page 20. Part 1 is where the $300 million, the $600 million and the $600 million expender management is actually talked about. So the minister has been jumping back and forth between

page 20. Part 1 is where the $300 million, the $600 million and the $600 million expenditure management is actually talked about. So the minister has been jumping back and forth between the efficiency review and the expenditure management and using the same $300 million. She will not say that they’re trying to target $300 million on the efficiency review. When she answers questions about the $300 million, she interchanges efficiency review and expenditure management.

Yet I’m reading the transcript and I would encourage the staff to pull the transcript from 5:05. The answer was at 5:35, if they think I’m incorrect. In fact, the answer was verbatim what’s written on page 20. The minister just read page 20. But at 5:05, the minister made it very clear that the $300 million is actually part of the expenditure review.

She also said that the $300 million has been booked. Booked means accounted for — not aspirational, not hope defined. When I asked very clearly if it’s not found would the deficit go up, the minister said no, which means it has to have been removed. You cannot have people with STOB 50 on salaries in different ministries thinking they have a certain amount of money to work with when they don’t, if you need that $300 million.

I fail to understand why this is getting so difficult for the government if they have already removed $300 million in spending on a $10.9 billion net deficit to say how much in each of the STOBs that the minister has referenced had money removed to calculate up to the $300 million and then, moving forward, for the $600 million next year and the following year. There is no other way you can book it. Otherwise, it’s just a hope. And if it’s just a hope, we should be seeing an $11.2 billion deficit with a statement saying we hope to get it to $10.9 by finding $300 million of efficiencies.

But that’s not what the government has said. So which is it? Has the $300 million already been accounted for in the $10.9 billion deficit? If so, where have the targeted spending cuts happened? If not, why are we dealing with a document that has a totally inaccurate deficit number? The government doesn’t get to have it both ways. No wonder this budget has already been getting bandied about as fudge-it budget 2.0.

It’s not about snapshots in time and moments in time and backward-looking and forward-looking. This is about trying to get the government to answer how they actually came up with the numbers in their own document.

The language as witnessed by page 20 in this book — the same book talks about two different phases of savings. One which would be understandable, which is the efficiency review which is ongoing with an undefined set of targets and an undefined set of savings — that’s on page 20. That’s understandable why it wouldn’t be part of the $10.9 billion.

But the language on the other portion of it is very clear. The expenditure management targets a total of $1.5 billion, $300 million, $600 million, 600 million to be achieved through management of administrative and discretionary spending while still protecting front-line services people rely on. And the minister has confirmed it is not part of the $10.9 billion deficit currently. It has already been accounted for. It’s been booked.

Why can the public, why can the opposition, not get a full accounting for how that $300 million was accounted for?

[11:35 a.m.]

Hon. Brenda Bailey: The nomenclature has been confusing, so let me be really clear. The efficiency review is the broader category. Within it, there are two tools in play. One is the expenditure management, and two is the program review. So when we’re speaking about the efficiency review, it is the larger piece.

The expenditure management, which the member is asking about now, is booked at $300 million, $600 million and $600 million over the fiscal plan. Those numbers are a forecast based on the tools that we are using, which are the spending controls put in place. That is how we know we can achieve it, through the spending controls that we have put in place. They have been in place since February. It’s across ministries. Page 22 will show you that.

This is a conservative, prudent number that we are very confident of. And because those spending controls are in place, it is less than 0.5 percent of ministry budgets and less than 0.3 percent of the overall budget.

Peter Milobar: So here’s the problem. It’s been billed as…. And yes, on page 22, you have expenditure management. The government has expenditure management right before the final line of expenses of $300 million, $600 million, $600 million. But that means nothing if the government hasn’t identified how they’re going to achieve that. It’s just aspirational. It’s a booked number that’s irrelevant.

[11:45 a.m.]

The minister has been asked where the savings are going to be found. Is it all in salaries? Is it…? Where? And she’s come up with the list of STOBs, which is a laundry list of government expenditures, but won’t say if the Office of the Premier has been asked to step back from going up by $1 million to actually reducing $1 million over $300 million. Won’t say whether or not Agriculture and Food has been asked, even though it’s gone from

and she’s come up with the list of STOBs, which is a laundry list of government expenditures, but won’t say if the Office of the Premier has been asked to step back from going up by $1 million to actually reducing $1 million of the $300 million. Won’t say whether or not Agriculture and Food has been asked, even though it’s gone from $229 million down to $143 million, to have further cuts, be it within any of those STOBs that make up the Ministry of Agriculture. Children and Family Development — are they being asked within their STOBs?

The only answer we get back from government is that it’s across government. No certainty, no clarity, no understanding. And why it’s important is…. If the government’s this unwilling to talk about the $1.5 billion they’re supposed to find over the next three years total, and that’s already been built into all of the deficits, how is the public supposed to reasonably take at face value the minister saying they’re on a path to balanced budget? That it’ll be hard work, but we’re going to get there.

In addition to the expenditure management that we can’t actually talk about or identify or point to any actual savings, period, other than we’ve just put a number in the budget book to say we’re doing it…. We’re going to go over and above that. How much are we going to go over and above that? We don’t know because the government doesn’t know. They haven’t actually set a target. But we’re on a path to balanced budget.

That’s what the efficiency review is going to do. It’s going to not cut services, because the government seems to be loathe to use the word “cut.” It’s not going to cut services, but we’re going to get to a balanced budget. We just don’t know how. We don’t know when. We don’t know what the target is to do it. We can’t tell you if we’re going to exceed the $300 million or not, because that hard work is still underway even though ministers have had five months now to look at their budgets moving forward, two years into this new fiscal, and we get told: “Well, wait till September 15.”

I guess, before we break for lunch here, my third question, in the whole time frame between question period and lunch: given all of that, and given that everything is being pushed to this first-quarter fiscal update — and I know how first-quarter fiscal updates typically get presented — will the minister confirm that at a minimum, it will be in keeping with others?

We heard yesterday about caving property sales, caving property sales values, compared to what the budget has projected. The minister, rightfully, can’t make that calculation today, but I would expect that those projections of revenues will all be adjusted in that first-quarter update based on what we’re seeing unfold in real estate, in property transfer tax, in other sales taxes, in carbon tax and all of those other areas.

Will all of those adjustments be made on the projection looking forward for the remainder of the year in that first-quarter update this year?

Hon. Brenda Bailey: Yes.

Peter Milobar: If all of those projections will have been made, and one would assume that the ministers responsible for their various portfolios and finding their expenditure management targets of $300 million will have a full accounting or game plan…. Or will that be laid out in the first-quarter update as well?

[11:50 a.m.]

Hon. Brenda Bailey: Yes, I think it’s fair to reflect that the Q1 update will reflect progress on this work.

Peter Milobar: Sorry, I’m confused. Progress is not a full accounting for. We’re talking about $300 million. We’re talking about, by the minister’s own

Hon. Brenda Bailey: Yes, I think it’s fair to reflect that the Q1 update will reflect progress on this work.

Peter Milobar: Sorry, I’m confused. Progress is not a full accounting for. We’re talking about $300 million. We’re talking about, by the minister’s own acknowledgement, 0.3 percent of the provincial budget. Ministers ought to have been told when the mandate letters came out that this was coming, five months ago. They’ve now had two months under this fiscal to deal with it, actually three months since the budget has been brought out to deal with it, and another month to get their plan in place beforehand, before the first quarter gets closed off and the report starts to get generated.

Is the Minister of Finance honestly saying that the urgency that the government is actually putting at this expenditure management to find $300 million, 0.3 percent of expenditures in the provincial budget, cannot be accomplished in the better part of six months from the time that they would have started to direct ministers to find it, and that it will still be a work in progress by the time we see the first-quarter update on September 15 of this year?

[11:55 a.m.]

Hon. Brenda Bailey: To correct the member’s timeline, we are two months into the fiscal year. The expenditure controls will see initial results from then reflected in Q1, as I’ve said. Q1, of course, updates both revenue and expenses and will encompass the work that the ministries have been doing. We look forward to reporting on this progress. We feel very confident of these numbers.

With that, hon. Chair, I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The committee rose at 11:58 a.m.

The House resumed at 11:58 a.m.

[The Speaker in the chair.]

Mable Elmore: Committee of Supply, Section B, reports progress of the estimates of the Ministry of Finance and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

George Anderson: Section A reports progress on Bill 15 and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

Jennifer Blatherwick: Section C reports progress on Bill 14 and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

Hon. Kelly Greene moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The Speaker: This House stands adjourned until 1:30 p.m. today.

The House adjourned at 11:59 a.m.