Committee of Supply

Proceedings in Section A

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF
MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS AND HOUSING

On Vote 37: ministry operations, $120,978,000.

The Chair: Does the minister have any opening remarks?

Hon. S. Robinson: I certainly do.

First of all, I’m speaking to you today from the territories of the Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ peoples, the Esquimalt and Songhees Nations. I’m grateful to be able to do this work from their beautiful territories.

I want to take a few moments to just thank some key individuals who have been working for the ministry and helping us to deliver on so much for the people of this province.

First, I want to take a moment to thank the Parliamentary Secretary for TransLink, the member for North Vancouver–Lonsdale, for her tremendous work as a champion for transit and TransLink on the Lower Mainland. She connects regularly with stakeholders, making sure that we’re hearing from them. She works, together with me, on a regional transportation strategy, and it’s really great to have her voice in that work.

I also want to take a moment — I think it’s important — to thank our public service. There are some key individuals that are joining me today, mostly virtually. I have my deputy minister Kaye Krishna here and my associate deputy minister Silas Brownsey. For assistant deputy ministers, I have Tara Faganello, with the local government division, and Greg Steves, with the office of housing and construction standards. Jeff Vasey is joining us from the office of mass timber implementation. David Curtis, executive financial officer and ADM of the management services division, is here as well. Their work has been critical to our ministry.

I also want to recognize the leadership of our Crown agencies: B.C. Housing’s chief executive officer, Shayne Ramsay; B.C. Assessment Authority’s president and chief executive officer, Jason Grant; and Technical Safety B.C.’s president and chief executive officer, Catherine Roome. I want to acknowledge their commitment to the people of British Columbia and the work that they’ve been doing. They’re an amazing team, and their commitment, certainly pre-COVID, was significant.

I want to just take a moment to mention the work that they have been doing, which our government has asked them to do. They’ve been working diligently to deliver on our 30-point housing plan. That has been a lot of work, and they have been delivering a significant amount of housing for the people of this province.

The Rental Housing Task Force recommendations. I know that the hon. Chair was part of that. We are continuing to deliver on those recommendations.

The investing in Canada infrastructure grants, approving 92 projects from two different funds: the community rec fund as well as the rural and northern fund. That’s pretty significant.

I also want to acknowledge the work that we’ve been doing with 189 local governments to strengthen their abilities to serve their communities.

We’ve also been working with the Mayors Council and Metro Vancouver on the regional transportation strategy so that together we can prioritize our shared values of efficient, effective, sustainable, cost-effective transportation that meets the needs of future growth of the region.

We’re also working through the development approval process review so that together, working with industry, working with local governments, we can streamline the development approval processes. All of this, and more, has been the work of my ministry. That’s pre-COVID.

Then COVID happened, in mid-March. I want to acknowledge, personally, and thank all of the staff, the public service, that went above and beyond. I’ve been trying to explain it to people. Getting reports at two in the morning from a deputy minister demonstrated her commitment and the team’s commitment to making sure that peoples’ needs were being met. We had to address eviction risk and what that would mean under a health crisis. We had to look at developing a temporary rent supplement.

[9:40 a.m.]

I want to give huge kudos to staff, to Shayne Ramsay and his team at B.C. Housing and to the residential tenancy branch, for their collaborative work to deliver on that program, where over 80,000 people benefited during this crisis.

I also want to acknowledge that as a result of COVID, we’ve had to deliver shelter to some of our most vulnerable citizens in our province differently. Their ability to pivot, to plan and to respond has been outstanding, and it’s something that we can all be proud of. But they didn’t do it alone. They’ve had to do it with local governments, with non-profits and with housing providers.

I want to give a huge thank-out and tremendous gratitude to all of those folks who stepped up and delivered for some of the most vulnerable citizens in British Columbia. It’s because they all worked together that we were able to keep people safe. We can all be very proud of the work that they have been doing, because we have really been very effective at flattening the curve.

Finally, I want to just take a moment to express my gratitude to my office staff — to Craig Ashbourne, Molly Henry, Jayne Ducker, Christine White, Jena Rayner, Erica Williams. These folks kept my life somewhat sane in what felt like, at times, an insane time. They helped to coordinate and make sure that I had the information that I needed so that we could respond effectively and efficiently for the people of British Columbia, and I think that we’re better off for it.

My opening remarks certainly are about all the work that we’ve been doing, but I think it’s about the people who are doing the work that I want to focus on, because they have been doing a yeoman’s job, and I think we should all be grateful. They’re often in various offices around Victoria or around the province. People don’t often see them and see the work that they do, and they have done an outstanding job.

Finally, I want to just take a moment to thank my two critics, the member for Kamloops–South Thompson and the member for Saanich North and the Islands. They have been asking good questions. They have been thoughtful in their questions, and they have been collaborative as well.

I just want to take a moment to appreciate everyone’s hard work to get us to this time where we’re doing estimates in a very unusual way. I know it hasn’t been an easy time, but I’m also very, very proud to be a British Columbian, because we know that we can work together for the benefit of everyone.

T. Stone: Good morning, everyone. Thanks for joining us today as we begin the process of canvassing the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing estimates.

I, too, will just take very, very brief moments here to acknowledge all of the hard work and the exceptional talent within the ministry, all of the staff who work so hard to deliver the programs and services that are critically needed and relied upon by so many British Columbians. I know many of the staff in the ministry personally, and I certainly understand the stress and the anxiety that we’ve all been going through, through COVID. The staff in the ministry have been professional and have continued to put their shoulder into the good work that they do.

Certainly, the 189 local governments, all the mayors and councillors, the elected officials around the province, appreciate the relationships with all of them — UBCM, all the associations and so forth.

I, too, want to acknowledge the hard work of the minister. Certainly, while we have differing views and opinions on many issues, we, I think, both share a love for this province and a desire to want to see life improve for British Columbians. There’s a lot of what goes on in this ministry that is focused on exactly that.

Minister, I’m very happy that you and your family have coped well through this pandemic, and I certainly wish that to continue in the months and years ahead. We will continue to ask tough questions. You were in opposition. You were effective in opposition. It’s an important part of our system for there to be accountability on the decisions that government makes. That’s why we’re here today.

I would like to just say, from a planning perspective today, that we’re going to cover a lot of housing stuff this morning and into the afternoon. I believe a member of the Green caucus will be asking some questions at 11:30. So we’ll watch our clock there to make sure that they can be cycled in at that time.

[9:45 a.m.]

The first piece that I wanted to canvass with the minister would be this. The estimates that are in front of us are based on a budget that was introduced in February, pre-pandemic. Obviously, there were signs of the pandemic and so forth emerging around the world, but we weren’t fully into it here in British Columbia. A budget was brought in. A set of estimates across all ministries were part of that budget. Obviously, life has changed dramatically for British Columbians. It’s no different with the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. There have been some very significant impacts as a result of this pandemic.

It is unfortunate, from our perspective, that we’re not debating a revised budget or a revised set of estimates that reflect those impacts. So I’m going to ask a few questions at the start of this process to try and understand how the pandemic has actually impacted the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing and the programs and the supports and services within it.

My first question to the minister would be this: could she please outline for us exactly how the COVID-19 pandemic has impacted revenues and expenses within the ministry, as well as capital expenses and capital timelines within the ministry?

There clearly must be impacts. I’m wondering if the minister could provide an accounting for us of what those revenue and expense impacts have been since the budget was introduced in February. The estimates at that point provided a certain picture, which is obviously very, very different as we look at where we are today and where we’re going in the month and years ahead.

Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate the question. The normal ministry operations or budget have not been significantly impacted by COVID-19. While there have been some adaptations that have needed to be made, there hasn’t been any impact to the budget.

T. Stone: Perhaps I could rephrase the question. I just want to be absolutely clear on this point. How has COVID-19 impacted the internal and external recoveries within the ministry?

[9:50 a.m.]

I think this is important because we do know that there have been a number of announcements that were made as part of the government’s response to the pandemic, the temporary rental supplement just being one example, that actually have fiscal implications. I just want to absolutely determine and confirm that notwithstanding the pandemic that we’re in, there has been no material change whatsoever to the internal and external recoveries within the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

Hon. S. Robinson: I want to share with the member that our response to COVID is available in a separate vote, and it’s not part of the formal budget of the ministry.

T. Stone: Could the minister, then, detail whether or not additional funds were actually provided to the ministry for the COVID-19 response? What were those amounts? How were those funds allocated within the departments inside the ministry? Have all of those funds, to this point, actually been expended? If not, how much of the funds have not been expended?

[9:55 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: You know, we made a very significant response, particularly for those who are most vulnerable, those who are in a situation where they didn’t have the ability to keep themselves safe, those who are most marginalized in our province. We made sure that we had to thin shelters, that we had the opportunity to make sure that everyone was safe.

We also took very significant steps around making sure that people weren’t evicted for non-payment of rent or other reasons, given the health risks. That was significant work. Again, I think, right across this nation every single province took that step to make sure that people were safe, and that was the priority for our government.

We’re also only one of a few provinces — I believe that there’s only one other province — that had a temporary rent supplement to help those who were at risk of losing their homes — also making sure that we paid it directly to landlords so that landlords were also supported through a time when perhaps people weren’t able to make rent.

These programs went a significant way to help people, because at the end of the day, that’s how we understand government’s role, and that’s our commitment. It’s to help people to get through difficult times.

With that, I will let the member know that that work is under a different vote and did not come through this current budget that we are debating right now.

T. Stone: I’m well aware of the reality of how the votes work, although I appreciate the minister pointing that out to me. I think we all know that on page 57, there is the supplement to the estimates and that’s where the internal and external recoveries are detailed.

I think we also know that there are, without question, some additional internal and external recoveries and fiscal impacts to the ministry’s budget since the budget was introduced back in February, pre-COVID.

My question is: can the minister detail the dollar amounts of those impacts? Clearly, the government has had to respond to this COVID crisis in a number of facets in terms of programs and services that are delivered through the ministry, and has done so with some additional moneys that have been allocated to the ministry.

I would remind the minister that the Solicitor General, the Government House Leader, has indicated several times that members of the opposition will be able to ask questions of the government about both the base budget that was introduced in February and also the impact of the COVID pandemic and the supplementary estimates therein.

I’ll also take the opportunity to read into the record that the Minister of Finance was asked this exact question on Tuesday, June 23 of this year. She was asked if there would be the opportunity to ask questions and assure accountability on the supplementary estimates and the impacts on ministry budgets.

The Minister of Finance said this: “As I said that day when those dollars passed, we are accountable for every dollar of that $5 billion. The members know that. They know they have an opportunity here in estimates during this session to debate those dollars. Each of the ministers who have individual programs will be responsible.”

She went on to say that she would be responsible for dollars in her ministry and the overall fiscal picture of the province. But again: “Each of the ministers who have individual programs will be responsible.”

I’ll try once again. I’d sure appreciate if the minister could provide us with a detailed accounting of those internal and external recoveries that are directly attributable to the impacts of the COVID pandemic and the impacts on programs and services that are within the purview of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

[10:00 a.m. - 10:05 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate the question. We certainly took a whole-of-government approach to be as responsive as we can be.

I want to read into the record. There were a number of programs that I neglected to read into the record. I think it’s important that everyone understand the actions that we took in order to deliver for people in British Columbia.

Not only did we launch the B.C. temporary rental supplement program for three months, we then extended it for July and August, because the need and the demand were certainly still there, with renters facing significant challenges due to COVID. We also provided temporary housing and supports for former residents of the Oppenheimer encampment in Vancouver and the Pandora corridor and Topaz Park encampments in Victoria.

We also supported and delivered, and are continuing to do this, meal delivery services to support vulnerable residents in B.C. Housing or non-profit-managed buildings, including SROs, where those folks have lost access to their regular supports, like food banks and hot meal programs, or they couldn’t venture out to grocery stores. We wanted to make sure that people could be fed.

We also invested in and funded deep cleaning services in B.C. Housing-owned buildings and buildings operated by non-profit housing providers, including SROs, to make sure that people were safe.

We secured spaces in hotels, motels and community spaces to extend temporary shelters as part of our shelter thinning program and are providing some subsidy adjustments for non-profits whose tenants are unable to pay the rent as a result of COVID-19.

The other thing that we did, which is critical — but I don’t think people would appreciate as much — is we procured things like toilet paper, disinfectant, hand sanitizer and PPEs as part of our COVID response.

These are continuing and ongoing activities. We are not through the crisis response. We are still in that. It’s an active and evolving situation. We’re managing based on needs, so it would be very difficult to provide final numbers to the member, because it’s an active and ongoing situation.

[10:10 a.m.]

T. Stone: I do appreciate that the minister is mentioning the myriad programs and the supports. My issue here is not quibbling with program X or program Y that were rolled out in response to a global pandemic.

My concern, my issue, the focus of this line of questioning is to understand the fiscal impacts of the pandemic, which have driven the need for these additional services and programs. What have those fiscal impacts been within the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing?

The minister just went through and named a whole bunch of examples of programs. That’s great. What I’m looking for are numbers, for the actual fiscal impacts of the initiative of government to purchase hotels and motels as part of the decampment process and the rapid response to homelessness and so forth, the temporary rental supplement — all of the things that the minister has mentioned, much of which is very worthy.

The purpose of estimates here is for British Columbians, through the, hopefully, focused questions of the official opposition, to ask very focused financial, fiscal questions of the government to understand what the impacts of these programs are on the budget that was presented last February. Again, at this point, I’m hoping the minister won’t just mention the programs by name but will actually answer the question that I’ve posed, and that is: what have the impacts been on the ministry’s budget? She can express it in terms of recovery, internal and external recoveries. She can express it in terms of revenue expense.

How have those programs and services, some of which existed previously, that have been amped up with additional funding in response to the pandemic, others which were brand-new programs that never existed before, were brand-new to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing…? They obviously have a price tag attached to them. What are the total dollar values of those programs as expressed in terms of internal and external recoveries on the Ministry of Municipal Affairs’ budget?

There was a budget presented in February — huge changes, obviously, as a result of the pandemic. I’m looking for an understanding of what the numbers are that represent that response to the pandemic, as seen through the programs and services in the Ministry of Municipal Affairs.

I will end this question, again, on this note. The expectation, as it was communicated by the Minister of Finance — not that long ago, June 23 — was that the ministers would be accountable and would be responsible to detail the fiscal impact of the COVID pandemic on the budgets within the ministries. That’s what I’m asking the minister. That’s the information. Those are the details I’m looking for the minister to provide here for us today.

[10:15 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I really do appreciate the question that the member is asking. We are working very closely with the Minister of Finance, working within the $5 billion allocation that was established for the COVID response. We are, frankly, in the middle of that response.

[10:20 a.m.]

There will be an accounting at some point in the future around it, but we are still in the middle. So at this point, I can’t provide the level of detail that the member is asking for because we are continuing in this response. We are still in response phase. I look forward to sharing information with the member in the future.

T. Stone: Is the minister saying that she is unable to share the fiscal impact of the COVID pandemic on the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, or is she unwilling to do so?

[10:25 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’m absolutely willing to share numbers once we have them.

This is an ongoing crisis. We have seen how this crisis impacted us in March and through April and then May in terms of understanding how long we would be in this very difficult and, I would even say, awkward and weird time that is requiring significant adjustments to traditional programs and taking care of people. But it would be absolutely, I think, premature to report out on the fiscal impact at this point in time, because we are still in the middle of this pandemic.

I do look forward to a full accounting and certainly sharing that with the public. The public accounts will certainly be there. But we are absolutely in the middle of our response, and it would absolutely just be premature to identify exactly where things are at. I think that once we are through the pandemic and we are through the response, we’ll certainly be able to share all of the specific fiscal impacts with the member and all of British Columbia.

T. Stone: Well, the Minister of Finance said on June 23 that each and every minister would be accountable for the dollars within their budgets and that the appropriate time to canvass any and all questions related to the budgets of the ministries is during this estimates process. She made it very clear, in the quote that I’ve read into the record now a couple of times, that she expected ministers to answer direct questions about the impacts of the COVID pandemic on ministry budgets and that ministers would provide those answers. You’re not doing that today.

I guess my next question would be…. There was a $5 billion action plan announced that was unanimously supported by all members of the Legislature back on March 23. Are you telling the people of British Columbia that the minister has no idea what component of the $5 billion COVID action plan has been allocated for programs and services delivered by the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing?

Hon. S. Robinson: We are working within the $5 billion framework that was established in March as part of our COVID response. We are working closely with the Minister of Finance and closely monitoring expenditures.

[10:30 a.m.]

We’re just not done yet. We’re still in the middle of an emergency response. We’re still in an emergency. We’re still in a state of emergency. It’s within that context that I don’t want to be misleading around what our expenditures are, given that we are still in a state of emergency, we’re still responding, and we’re just not through this yet.

T. Stone: Well, could the minister please answer this question: how is it premature for her to provide even a preliminary number today that represents what portion of the $5 billion her ministry has been allocated? How is it premature for her to provide that today in these budget estimates when her colleague the Minister of Finance is going to be providing British Columbians with an economic update in five days’ time?

On July 14, five days from now, the Minister of Finance will be providing an economic update. What I’m asking today is: how can the minister say that it’s premature for her to even provide some semblance of how much of the $5 billion has been allocated to her ministry for services and programs — even an accounting of how much money has been received of that $5 billion, what that money has been allocated for and how much money is unallocated?

Those would all be numbers that would be well understood in the Ministry of Finance and should be well understood in the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing as well.

Again, how is it premature for the minister today to say, “No, I can’t tell you any of the numbers, can’t tell you what we’ve received as a ministry as part of the $5 billion COVID action plan,” yet her colleague is going to be providing a fiscal update, an economic update, on July 14, which, again, is only five days from today?

[10:35 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’ll reiterate again that we continue to work very closely with the Minister of Finance. We are in the midst of this pandemic and in the midst of our response. So it would be disingenuous to report out on final numbers.

Just by way of example, when we first realized that we were in this pandemic and we decided that we would support renters with a temporary rent supplement program, it was a three-month program, with the hope, fingers crossed, that we would be through this pandemic in just a matter of months.

We’ve certainly seen that that hasn’t been the case. We’re still in a state of emergency that gets extended every couple of weeks. Everyone, I think, hopes that we’ll be in a different place, and that hasn’t been realized just yet.

We are being responsive and responsible in working very closely with the Minister of Finance in making sure that we are within that $5 billion fiscal response to COVID-19 and working closely with her ministry to make sure that we can continue to deliver for the people of British Columbia, continue to keep them safe.

When we are through this crisis, we’ll certainly be able to provide accurate numbers to the members and to British Columbians so that there is a full accounting of how our programs were able to deliver and how much it cost.

T. Stone: I will respectfully disagree with the minister. I don’t believe it would be disingenuous at all to provide details on expenditures as they’re happening.

By the way, when we do estimates every single year…. Put the COVID pandemic to the side. In the regular fiscal year, when we’re doing the estimates process, we’re only partially through the fiscal year. We don’t know what’s ahead of us, but there’s a set of projections in the estimates that are provided, and provided for, in each ministry, and the ministers are expected to be able to answer basic questions around those allocations.

[10:40 a.m.]

If the minister is indeed working, as she says, “so closely with the Ministry of Finance,” then I will ask again: how much of the $5 billion COVID funding has been allocated to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing? Number 2, how has that $5 billion been allocated to the different programs and services in her ministry? Number 3, how much has been actually spent, of those allocations, let’s say to June 30. As of June 30, how much of the allocations have actually been spent, and how much is left?

Those are very straightforward questions. If she and her staff are working as closely with the Minister of Finance and her staff…. The minister, I believe, should be able to provide and actually has an obligation to provide those details to the people of British Columbia as part of this estimates process.

[10:45 a.m. - 10:50 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate, again, the member’s question and his desire for everything to be normal, like under normal circumstances. I share his desire in terms of how things operate, but we’ve been in very abnormal times with very abnormal challenges.

Again, I’m going to say that under normal circumstances for the estimates we have predictability, we have projections and we have very clear parameters. But when you’re in a crisis, like the one that we’re in, we are continually evolving and changing program design to better meet the needs of people who are really struggling.

Again, I’m going to come back to the temporary rental supplement program that we designed and how it played out, not having a very clear understanding in the moment about what the uptake was going to be on that program, how it was going to evolve over time, whether or not it was going to be three months or five months. Under normal circumstances, we have some predictability, we understand whose needs we’re meeting and we can design a program based on an estimation of what the budget ought to be. This one has been an ever-changing one.

We’re trying to meet the needs of British Columbians as best we can. We’re still spending the dollars within the $5 billion bucket. I know that the Finance Minister will have an update about where things are at, but again, that continues to change and evolve. She’ll be providing the update shortly.

T. Stone: Well, yes, we all desire things to return to “normal.” But I’ll say this to the minister: I also think British Columbians desire some accountability here.

It is an absolutely normal practice, and has been for as long as the Legislature has conducted estimates and the way it’s conducted estimates, for the government of the day to bring in a budget, typically in February, including estimates for every ministry, which are all based on projections, which are then diligently tracked ministry by ministry through the forthcoming four quarters.

[10:55 a.m.]

Having served in cabinet, I learned a whole bunch of things. One thing I know for absolutely certain is that we have one of the most professional public services in the world. There is no doubt in my mind, nor do I think in most British Columbians’ minds, that the public service, the civil servants who work in the minister’s ministry, are tracking these numbers.

They know how much of the $5 billion to manage the COVID pandemic has been allocated to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing. They know how that allocation has been allocated into different programs and services, like the temporary rental supplement the minister keeps mentioning. They also know how much of those allocations have been spent over the last three months. Let’s say to June 30.

I’m not sure what the minister expected we were going to be discussing today in this estimates process if it isn’t the actual estimates themselves — what the government presented in February layered on top of the $5 billion COVID pandemic plan and the impacts that that’s had. But that’s what we’re here to discuss. We desire normalcy. We also desire some accountability.

Once again, recognizing that the public service knows darn well how much money was allocated to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing, how that has been allocated to different programs in the ministry and where the expenditures are to, say, June 30, will the minister provide those numbers to the people of British Columbia, the taxpayers of British Columbia, and do so today?

[11:00 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’d be very happy to debate the budget that was allocated in February. I look forward to the questions from the member and other members on that budget.

Detailed expenditures, which the member is asking for, related to the COVID response…. As he would know, we don’t report out on in-year actuals during estimates, but certainly, the actuals will be released in the public accounts.

I really do look forward to having the debate and the discussion about the budget that was tabled in February. I know that British Columbians are probably really eager to hear about that as well.

T. Stone: Well, again, the member’s colleague the Minister of Finance made it very clear, only a couple of weeks ago, that ministers were expected to answer direct questions about the $5 billion COVID pandemic plan and the impact that that has had on different ministries. For whatever reason, the minister is refusing to do that here today.

I would also highlight for the minister…. This is from Parliamentary Practice, fifth edition, chapter 12, 12.7.3. “Scope of debate. The supply process can be lengthy and detailed, providing members the opportunity to review all government ministries by asking questions about ministry plans and proposed spending and to consider and approve the money requested by the government.”

When I take that and I layer on top of that the Minister of Finance, who put a very clear directive and expectation out to her ministerial colleagues…. “Each of the ministers who have individual programs will be responsible, and they will answer questions.” I’m baffled as to why the minister continues to fall back on a response that is trying to suggest it’s too early to put a fence around this.

The numbers…. Apparently, nobody in the ministry is keeping track of the total dollar amount that it received from the Finance Ministry as part of the $5 billion COVID plan. Apparently, no one in the ministry, and the minister herself, is paying any attention to what those allocations are or how much has been allocated to programs. I just refuse to believe that that’s the case.

We have a professional civil service that are very, very good at what they do. I am a former minister. I know how this works. I know how closely the Ministry of Finance, in consultation with the different ministries, monitors every single penny of taxpayers’ money. They are doing that now, but the minister refuses to provide us with any detail on these allocations.

[11:05 a.m.]

I’m going to ask one final time. In light of the direction that the Minister of Finance has said very publicly and her expectation, in light of what parliamentary practice is actually supposed to look like when it comes to the estimates process, as detailed in Parliamentary Practice, fifth edition, and in light of the fact that British Columbians have a right to understand how their tax money is being spent, how much of the $5 billion COVID pandemic action plan has been allocated to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing? Of that amount, how have those dollars been allocated to different programs and services within the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing?

Finally, how much of those funds have been spent as of June 30, and what is the remaining balance that there still is in those allocations?

[11:10 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’ve been really clear with the member that, with the evolving and changing circumstances, there is certainly some concern around putting a fine point on expenditures, because we are in the middle of this.

It is an absolutely normal practice, and has been for as long as the Legislature has conducted estimates and the way it’s conducted estimates, for the government of the day to bring in a budget, typically in February, including estimates for every ministry, which are all based on projections, which are then diligently tracked ministry by ministry through the forthcoming four quarters.

What I can share with the member…. To date, we made some significant hotel purchases from the HAFI special account — about $105 million in order to house people that were formerly in Oppenheimer Park and Topaz and the Pandora corridor. We also were allocated — again, it’s notional — $11.4 million to operate hotels. Again, this is not till June 30, as the member had asked in terms of a framework. This is just a notional allocation that would allow us to be responsive. Again, this is all subject to change, given that we don’t have full appreciation for how long we are going to be in this situation, and we need to be responsive.

The temporary rent supplement. We were allocated $84 million for the first three months. We have since extended it for a couple of more months. So $64 million is the estimation for the extension. But again, we’re in the middle of delivering on these programs and services. It’s case-dependant, so those numbers are possibly likely to change. I just want to make sure that the member understands. A nod would suffice that he understands that these are potentially subject to change.

We did get an allocation of $43 million for the original COVID response in March for cleaning, security, meals, sort of as a bundle so that we could be effective and efficient and respond to needs as we saw them. There’s an additional $14 million that we were allocated for additional shelter thinning, as we call it, making sure that in responding to SROs, which were a significant concern for the health response, we took some swift action there.

That’s where we’re at to date. Again, I want to make sure that all members and the public know that this has been a health response and making sure that we could take care of this variety of needs. This is all part of the $5 billion bucket. Again, these numbers are not, I would say, final numbers at all, because we are still in the middle of a pandemic and there is certainly, possibly, more response that’s going to be required. I think everyone needs to know that that is certainly a possibility.

T. Stone: I nod my head to the minister. Those are numbers. I appreciate that. I’m a bit disappointed it took an hour and 45 minutes for us get to that point, but we are where we are.

[11:15 a.m.]

We’ll have time, through this estimates process, to go through those numbers. They do relate to programs and services that are very important to a lot of British Columbians, so I’ll look forward to asking focused questions on each of those areas.

The numbers being notional — well, that’s the case every year in the estimates process. The very word “estimate” is that you don’t know what the final number is going to be at the end of the day. You’re doing your best to project and take into account all kinds of circumstances that could very well change. I appreciate the fact that we are now finally, in this estimates process, talking about some numbers.

On that note, again, recognizing that the Green member…. I believe the member for Cowichan Valley is going to be asking a few questions, and we have her scheduled for 11:30. So I’m going to take just the remaining 15 minutes here to ask a couple of questions about the Home Adaptations for Independence program. This is a very successful, very important program that was created a number of years ago. It provides funds for home accessibility upgrades for seniors with mobility issues.

Our understanding is that the HAFI program was closed in March 2020 due to the COVID pandemic. In the opposition, we’re hearing from a good number of people who are quite frustrated about applications that they have in and where things are at with those applications. Others are frustrated that it would appear that the program may not be reopening.

My first question to the minister would be this. When was the decision made to actually close the HAFI program? Was the decision made on the advice of the provincial health officer? If not, who made the decision, at the end of the day, to close the HAFI program?

[11:20 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I want to thank the member for the question. Part of the COVID response is, of course, keeping everyone safe, so we did press pause. Again, this is about bathroom renovations and having people come into people’s homes. This is not the time to do it. In fact, B.C. Housing had stopped all indoor renovation work during the COVID as a result of needing to make sure that people were kept safe.

What I will share with the member as well — and this is not COVID-related — is that the program was scheduled for a review. To make sure that we plan…. Before COVID, we were undertaking a review to make sure that it most effectively meets people’s needs. That work is happening as well, so it is an unfortunate timing challenge, but there were two separate decisions made.

What I also want to let the member know and British Columbians know is that, for those applications that were underway, the deadline has been extended to June 30 so that that work can happen. But I’m looking forward to reconfiguring this program so that it can most effectively be delivered for British Columbians that need adaptation to their homes so that they can continue to live and age in place.

T. Stone: I agree. It’s a very popular, very important program that makes a huge difference in the lives of many British Columbians.

Now, I understand the minister’s point around, during the COVID pandemic and the perceived risk and so forth, that being the driving force in not wanting contractors to be going into people’s homes. Again, I really want to understand, though. As part of that decision — the decision to close the HAFI program and not allow for those retrofits, that work to be done…. Was the closure of the program a result of a decision to that effect of the provincial health officer? If not, who made the decision to close down the HAFI program during the COVID pandemic?

[11:25 a.m.]

Hon. S. Robinson: I’ll provide a response to the member’s question, and then I’m hoping we might be able to take a five-minute break, if that’s permissible.

The Chair: For sure. Thank you, Minister.

Hon. S. Robinson: Again, the pause that we took was based on the understanding that we were all to sort of hunker down in place, limit our social contact, limit our bubbles. So based on the advice that all British Columbians were hearing, we pressed pause on the program.

That is back up now because we are in a different place and in a different time, while still under public health orders and public safety in a crisis situation, but we have a framework for doing that work. That is sort of what I’ll say are the steps that were taken as a result of what was happening around COVID.

Work is back now. I want to assure the member and assure British Columbians that that work is continuing to happen now for those applications that were made, and we’ve extended it to June 30.

We are simultaneously, and this was planned for spring of 2020, doing a program review. New applications won’t be considered until the fall, because we want to make sure that we are delivering this program to the people that absolutely need it the most and make sure that British Columbians can continue to live and age gracefully in their homes. So we’re just reconfiguring the program so that it best meets peoples’ needs.

The Chair: We’re going to move to the member for Cowichan Valley. Is that correct?

T. Stone: Yes. But I think the minister has requested a really quick break for two minutes. I would support the request.

The Chair: Clearly the Chair needs to restock my coffee. Thanks, everybody. We’ll take a five-minute recess right now.

The committee recessed from 11:28 a.m. to 11:37 a.m.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

S. Furstenau: I’m delighted to be here. I think I’ll start right where I am, which is in the Cowichan Valley. I just want to paint a little bit of a picture, and then I have a couple of questions for the minister.

I’m starting with a really big shout-out to the Cowichan Housing Association — John Horn and his incredible team — and Michelle Staples, who have been working very closely, and we’re very grateful for this, with B.C. Housing to build a really Cowichan-made plan that responded to the urgent need for housing and other accommodations for people without homes in Cowichan in light of COVID-19. The plan that they came up with together has been effective, and we are hoping that funding will be found to extend the program through to the end of September.

I’m aware that B.C. Housing recently announced two new developments to house 100 people without homes, with building to begin in the fall and opening sometime late winter. This has been something we’ve been advocating for in Cowichan for a long time. I’m aware that there are some concerns that are being raised and that B.C. Housing is working with the local community to mitigate the concerns and issues that have been raised.

Before I get to the question, I just want to say for the minister…. Cindy Lise from Our Cowichan Network went out and gathered some impact statements from people who had been provided some housing during this time.

A few of those statements. “Having housing, I got a job,” said Dan.

“Having a secure place to sleep that is safe and having a bed to sleep in and having a bathroom, to be able to wash and clean, has improved my mental health.”

“Quality of life has improved big time from what it was before. Here I am, clean all the time. I have clean clothes. Before, I could have a shower once a week and clean clothes once a week. There was no water. It was so hard to pack all your stuff around, particularly at my age.”

I just wanted the minister to hear some of those really positive impact statements.

The concern in Cowichan now is that funding for these current accommodations — the tenting spaces and the hotel spaces — may not continue after September. Without the certainty around this, it’s causing a really great deal of anxiety for people involved.

[11:40 a.m.]

Can the minister provide the community with assurance that the housing options that have been available to date in response to the COVID pandemic will remain in place after September so that nobody goes back out onto the street?

Hon. S. Robinson: I want to thank the member for getting this interaction off on a really good note with those comments.

It warms my heart to hear that all our collective efforts, with certainly the mayors and the local governments as well as the not-for-profits who’ve been working for so long to make a difference in their communities…. To hear it come back feels good. So I want to thank her for sharing that, because I think we all need to hear that — that the hard work of getting housing for people who are most vulnerable and knowing the impact it has, just with dignity, is heartwarming. So I want to thank her very much for setting the tone.

[11:45 a.m.]

We have been working diligently around the province, through B.C. Housing, to house people who have been so marginalized for so long through the COVID response. What I can share with the member…. Certainly, it’s beyond Cowichan. It’s right around the province. As of June 29, there were 2,980 spaces secured at 111 sites. That includes hotels, motels and community centres right across the province.

I want to give a huge shout-out to B.C. Housing staff for all of their work right around the province to identify those resources and those opportunities.

The numbers are continually in flux because some of them are shorter-term or longer-term leases, depending on what’s available and what’s possible, and the demand changes. As housing that we’ve been building comes on line, people are able to move in. So while those are numbers as of June 29, I expect that by the end of this month, they will be different again.

We are reaching out to operators to decide whether or not they wish to continue the arrangement. A lot of these cases were motels or hotels that have seen the tourism opportunities aren’t there, so they’re happy to work with our government to house folks in the interim. A majority of these are on lease. They are set to expire. We are in the process of extending those leases where it’s possible, where there is opportunity.

We want to make sure that we can continue to house people. No one wants to see anyone having to return to the street or to the park or to a ravine. That’s not our intent. So we’re working very diligently to identify where we can extend leases and create opportunities.

We’re also, of course, exploring ways to do permanent housing. I know that in the member’s community, I’m very excited that we’re able to deliver on that. Also, we’ve purchased a number of hotels, and we’re expediting development plans as part of our work to transition people from homelessness to long-term, permanent and stable housing.

That work continues, and I look forward to any other questions the member might have around this.

S. Furstenau: I appreciate that response. I guess just specifically to Cowichan, could the minister give some indication as to when the folks at the Cowichan Housing Association would be able to expect a certain response, a certain answer or an answer with certainty about the existing spaces that have been created in this time period and whether they’ll be extended past September? When can they expect that certainty?

Hon. S. Robinson: I appreciate that this can be anxiety-inducing for many in the community, particularly those that are precariously housed. I know that the member feels that anxiety herself for those who are most vulnerable.

We are working as diligently and as quickly as we can, and I can commit to let the member know as soon as we have solid plans in place. We’ll certainly communicate that to her, to her office. Again, as a government, we do not want to return anyone to homelessness. That’s the work that we’re continuing to strive to do, and we’ll certainly get her the details once they are solidified.

S. Furstenau: Thanks to the minister for that. We look forward to that coming forward.

Just to transition from people living without homes to the more precariously housed. I know there are a lot of efforts to ensure that people don’t lose housing at this time. We’ve seen so much of the inequalities laid bare because of this pandemic and the exposure of so many economically vulnerable people.

[11:50 a.m.]

My question for the minister…. It’s a series of questions. What is the ministry doing to assess the economic impacts of COVID on the ability of British Columbians to pay rent? Specifically, how many people have applied for the rent subsidy as of June 1, and how many have been confirmed eligible?

Hon. S. Robinson: When COVID hit and we knew that we were dealing with a significant health pandemic, we took swift action, as a government, doing our best to keep everyone safe. It was for that reason, for example, that we did a ban on evictions for non-payment of rent, and we put a moratorium on any active evictions for any other reason. Again, the primary concern for our government — and the priority — was to keep everyone safe.

I know that that created significant challenges, certainly, for landlords, for example, especially those who have mortgage helpers and the impacts that that meant for them if they had a tenant who couldn’t pay rent.

[11:55 a.m.]

I want to say that we continued to urge people who could pay rent to continue to pay rent, that there was certainly an obligation to maintain the relationship between a landlord and a renter. I’m very proud of the fact that, based on some preliminary data that we’ve been looking at — and we’re monitoring this all the way through — the majority of renters did pay full rent. We’ve certainly been checking in with LandlordBC, with TRAC, with UDI and others to find out what was happening on the ground, making sure that we’re listening to them and being responsive to what the experience was for people on the ground.

Finding out that, I think, 83 or 84 percent of renters were paying full rent, and 12 or 13 percent…. I can get the specific numbers to the member if she’d like, but it was either 12 percent or 13 percent who were paying partial rent. What that told me, again, was that British Columbians were doing their level best to make rent and to keep things whole. So it was through that process we recognized that there were certainly going to be some people where it would be difficult to sustain that.

That’s why we put together the temporary rent supplement. We had significant uptake. I do have some numbers here. They’re just to mid-June, which is the latest that I have. We had a total of 90,504 applications, and 82,681 were confirmed eligible. In that context, we were able to provide support.

What we did with this program was the supports, whether it’s $300 if you’re an individual with no dependents…. If you hit the income threshold, no dependents, $300. If you had dependents, $500. We paid it directly to the landlord so that it would go against the amount owing. I know that landlords appreciated the recognition that it went to rent.

I want to commend B.C. Housing. It was a significant turnaround time and a significant program to process. I want to acknowledge the RTB staff that came in to support that program. That was a significant load, with people working late into the night and working weekends to get this program off and running. But I know that it’s made a significant difference to thousands of British Columbians.

I think I’ve answered the member’s question. Perhaps she has another one for me.

The Chair: Just noticing the time. I wondered if we had time for a short question, or we can note the hour.

S. Furstenau: I’ll just do a very short one. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

What is the trend with the applications right now? Are they levelling off, going up or going down?

Hon. S. Robinson: The bulk of applications were certainly the early part of the program. Every month they have dropped off significantly.

With that, noting the hour, hon. Chair, I move that the committee rise and report progress on the estimates of the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing.

Motion approved.

The Chair: Thank you, Members. This committee is now adjourned.

The committee adjourned at 12 noon.