2015 Legislative Session: Fourth Session, 40th Parliament
HANSARD

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

official report of

Debates of the Legislative Assembly

(hansard)

Tuesday, October 20, 2015

Morning Sitting

Volume 29, Number 8

ISSN 0709-1281 (Print)
ISSN 1499-2175 (Online)

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 20, 2015

The House met at 10:02 a.m.

[Madame Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Prayers.

Statements

FEDERAL ELECTION

J. Horgan: I rise on behalf of the official opposition to offer my sincere congratulations to Justin Trudeau as the Prime Minister–designate and to all of the candidates of all political parties who put their names forward in what was the longest election campaign in 100-some years. Gruelling for the candidates. Whatever their perspective, I want to tip my hat to all of them for offering up themselves for public service.

We all know in this place the impact that this business has on families and on friends. I'm grateful that the campaign is finally over. I'm also grateful that there's a change in the government of Canada. I think we'll all embrace that in the days and weeks and months ahead.

Hon. R. Coleman: As the Leader of the Opposition and I both know, a writ period of 28 days can be quite difficult. A long writ period of 70 days…. People and volunteers across the country have gone out to make sure Canadians do something that we're very fortunate to be able to do and that is to be able to change our government at the ballot box.

We are honoured by all the people who actually stepped up and ran in the federal election. We congratulate the new government and Prime Minister–elect Trudeau and all the people who actually volunteered and stepped up yesterday.

I also want to congratulate Canadians, particularly the people in the capital regional district of Victoria, because they had a substantial voter turnout yesterday, which to me and to my son who has served in Afghanistan shows that people are actually starting to honour again the sacrifice people make so that we can have the vote in this country.

We look forward to working…. This will be the fourth administration federally, and I've worked with every administration in the last two decades and look forward to the new administration and working with them as well, as does the government of British Columbia.

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Introductions by Members

Hon. T. Lake: I'd like to introduce a number of guests from the B.C. Lung Association that are in the gallery this morning: board chair Dr. Peter Paré; CEO Scott McDonald; along with board members Richie Gage and Mike Ellis. They're here to meet with me later today. Would the House make them very welcome.

Hon. S. Cadieux: As this House knows, October marks the 25th anniversary of Foster Family Month in B.C. In recognition of this important milestone, we've been paying tribute to the more than 3,000 foster families throughout British Columbia who open their hearts and homes to kids and teens in need.

Being a foster parent isn't easy, and it requires kindness, patience, effort and a lot of love. Today I'd like to celebrate the contributions of some of our longest-serving foster parents. They have been actively foster parenting for more than 45 years.

After I read their names, please join me in recognizing them for selflessly embracing the challenges and rewards that go hand in hand with fostering a vulnerable child. Today in the House joining us are Joan and Olympe Astra, Frances Nuttgens, Doreen Klages, Blanche Funk, Mavis and Emelio Bifano, Rose Brittain, and Joan and Harold Hansen.

Russell Pohl, president of the B.C. Federation of Foster Parent Associations, and Jayne Wilson, the association's executive director, are also joining us, as are two of our provincial guardianship staff, Connie Epp and Ted Lofto.

Please join me in welcoming everyone here today.

Tributes

GAYLE BALLARD

J. Horgan: It's with great sadness that I rise to advise the House of the passing of Gayle Ballard on September 30. Gayle was constituency assistant for Member of the Legislature Graham Lea as well as Member of Parliament Jim Fulton and the spouse of former Premier Dan Miller.

Gayle leaves behind her daughters Elizabeth and Donna, her son Scott, grandchildren Kyle and Lauren, as well as Dan's children, Laura, Jason, and their grandchild, Emily.

Gayle was an extraordinary woman — small of stature but fierce of heart. Her commitment to politics, her commitment to the New Democratic Party and her commitment to Dan were unparalleled. I would ask that the House acknowledge her passing as well as advise the House that there will be a memorial service at the Royal Colwood Golf Club on October 24 between 1 and 3 p.m.

Introductions by Members

Hon. M. Bernier: I know every single member in this House appreciates all the hard work that our constituency assistants do back in our offices while we're busy here in these chambers — what they do for our constituents and what they do for us.
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Usually on Tuesday mornings around this time, my constituency assistant enjoys turning on the TV and watching question period from our office in Dawson Creek, but I'm really honoured to have her down here in the chambers with us today, meeting my new ministry staff, getting to see the building and getting to watch question period face to face with all of us today. I'm hoping everybody will please welcome my constituency assistant Cindy Fisher to the chambers.

Hon. C. Oakes: It is my pleasure to introduce two guests into the gallery today. Paulina Cameron is the business development manager of B.C. and Yukon for Futurpreneur Canada. Prior to Futurpreneur, Paulina worked at KPMG, Vancouver's audit and management consulting practice. As a community leader and an active mentor, Paulina serves as the chair of the YWCA youth advisory council, is the founder of the Young Women in Business, an adviser for LOCO B.C., a member of the WEB Alliance, and she has been recognized by the Vancouver Board of Trade in the inaugural Wendy McDonald Awards, YWCA for Women of Distinction Awards and the International Alliance for Women Top 100 Award.

As well, we have Emily Lycopolus, the co-founder and co-owner of Olive the Senses, an authentic olive oil and vinegar tasting shop located in the historical Hudson building. She recently launched Eat, Feed, Love — a social enterprise working that is working on a solution for world hunger through facilitating sales on artisanal local goods on line. She is a proud Futurpreneur-supported entrepreneur and is an active spokesperson for entrepreneurship both regionally in Victoria and nationally.

Will the House please help join me in making them feel very welcome here today.

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Introduction and
First Reading of Bills

BILL 41 — MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES
AMENDMENT ACT (No. 3), 2015

Hon. S. Anton presented a message from Her Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 3), 2015.

Hon. S. Anton: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. S. Anton: I am pleased to introduce Bill 41, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 3), 2015. This bill amends the following statutes: College and Institute Act; the University Act; Child, Family and Community Service Act; Utilities Commission Act; and the Interjurisdictional Support Orders Act.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 41, Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act (No. 3), 2015, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Statements
(Standing Order 25B)

RETURN OF HOUSE POSTS TO
WEI WAI KAI NATION IN CAPE MUDGE

C. Trevena: As the rains poured and the wind blew, a very special event took place in Cape Mudge ten days ago: the celebration to mark the return of Chief Billy Assu's house posts, beautifully carved totems that were taken from the community more than 85 years ago. They have been sitting in the Canadian Museum of History in Ottawa, far away from the people and the culture to which they belonged.

They will be displayed at Nuymbalees Cultural Centre in the village as part of an exhibit, The Man Behind the Masks: The Life and Legacy of Chief Billy Assu. One of Chief Billy Assu's great-grandsons, Brad, is carving replicas to be sent back to Ottawa. Their return is significant, and it's thanks, in great part, to the work of the board of the Nuymbalees Centre and to Jodi Simkin, the curator, who is tracking down and negotiating the return of cultural items from the Wei Wai Kai Nation which are scattered around the world.

We talk about understanding and reconciliation. The return of those poles is another step in that direction. We know the history of First Nations since contact, and it has been awful. It's almost 100 years since these posts were taken, at a time of the potlatch ban. The journey through those 100 years has been traumatic, from the loss of land through residential schools to the murdered and missing indigenous women.

There are many places where we need to come together to heal, many places where we need to come together to understand and many places where we should come together to demand change. The idea of reconciliation now underlines so much of our thinking and actions, and so it should. We each need to examine what that reconciliation means. We live as neighbours, and we work as colleagues, and we share this land. Some of us are First Peoples, others are long settled, and some are newcomers.

The celebration at Cape Mudge which included the return of the house poles, the exhibition of Chief Assu's Chilkat blanket, on loan from the Canadian Museum of History, and a very welcoming feast for the whole com-
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munity were steps towards a level of understanding and a level of reconciliation.

It's not the start of the process, nor is it the end. But we now walk towards the future together with a knowledge and acceptance of the past.

A CHANCE TO CHOOSE
YOUTH EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM

L. Reimer: SUCCESS Tri-City has been serving the fast-growing, multicultural communities in Coquitlam, Port Coquitlam and Port Moody since 1989. Recently I had the opportunity to attend the graduation of students in one of their most important programs. A Chance to Choose aims to help youth overcome barriers to employment. Getting that first job is the most important step in any career, and A Chance to Choose targets youth such as new immigrants, single parents and people who have various barriers or lack the experience needed to secure employment.

Through group-based skills development and work experience with local employers, participants are able to choose and develop a career path. It's 16 weeks in total duration. Participants spend the first six weeks in skills development, followed by ten weeks of paid work experience with an outside employer.

During the initial phase of the program, A Chance to Choose participants also benefit from job search strategies and interview skills workshops, and they get a chance to focus on their desired career path and make positive decisions about their future.

For the most recent graduates of intake 30, I offer my sincere congratulations. You are now better equipped for the modern workforce, and you are more confident and comfortable with choosing your own career path.

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I ask that all members of this House join me in issuing congratulations to our recent graduates and thanking SUCCESS for undertaking this popular and vital program in the Tri-Cities.

CONSERVATION

G. Holman: I rise today in non-partisan praise of conservation as an underappreciated way to reduce our environmental footprint and improve our social and economic well-being. In a world eventually adding billions to our population, waste not, want not is a must.

In many circumstances, conservation is the most efficient way of addressing our growing demand for energy. On a per-dollar-of-expenditure basis, energy conservation measures also generate the highest employment and GDP impacts of any energy investment and increase the net incomes of families and businesses that make such investments. Conservation provides the broadest geographic distribution of benefits. It facilitates flexibility in the face of rapidly changing technology and is the least environmentally damaging energy investment.

A conservation approach applies more broadly to other scarce resources such as water, land and forests. Our waste of these precious resources is endemic, yet too often conservation is an afterthought. How many residential, commercial and industrial buildings in B.C. are effectively heating the great outdoors or literally flushing increasingly costly potable water down the drain?

If we utilized our timber more efficiently, could we create more jobs and preserve more of our critical wildlife habitat and related tourism benefits? If we better protected our marine environment, would there ultimately be more fish to eat and more whales for tourists to watch?

As the old saying goes, they're not making any more land, yet urban development sprawls over the landscape as if it was limitless. Urban sprawl doesn't just destroy green space and food-growing options. It imposes real costs on taxpayers, who must pay for extending road, sewage, water and storm drainage infrastructure.

Conservation isn't just about saving the environment. With burgeoning population growth and increasing scarcity of water, food-growing lands, forests and energy, conservation is a necessity. The good news is that it's a good investment. In short, less is more.

SCREEN-BASED PRODUCTION AND
FILM INDUSTRY

J. Thornthwaite: This summer the province rolled out the red carpet to celebrate the wide range of screen-based entertainment that is created here in B.C. From film and television production to visual effects, animation and interactive games, this industry supports more than 20,000 direct and indirect jobs and has made B.C. one of the top centres for screen production excellence in North America.

To recognize the sector's success, July 27, 2015, was proclaimed Screen in B.C. Day, which coincided with the appointment of Dr. Steven Funk as special envoy of film and digital arts to California and with the opening of a B.C. film and television office in Los Angeles. Not only does this fulfil our campaign promise to open an office down south, it will also help us embrace our market presence in Hollywood and facilitate new opportunities for B.C.-based producers.

B.C.'s film industry is having one of its most successful years. In fact, many in the industry have called this summer their busiest ever, thanks to a low dollar and competitive tax credits.

Recently I received a letter from Paul Sharpe, president of Sharpe Sound Studios, which is located in North Vancouver and is western Canada's leading audio post-production facility. Paul wrote to thank our government for its support of B.C.'s post-production sector.

Paul has been in the industry for 40 years and has seen many ups and downs. He says the recent downturn
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was one of the worst, but he credits the extension of the digital animation or visual effects tax credit to the post-production industry with saving his business, saying that the day after the extension was announced, the phones started ringing.

This is just one of the ways we have followed through on our commitment to support this valuable industry, and I'm proud of the work that we have done. I look forward to continuing to support business owners like Paul, whose talent, enthusiasm and expertise have cemented our reputation as Hollywood North.

MOUNTAIN VIEW
MENTAL HEALTH FACILITY

S. Hammell: Tasked with providing mental health services to some of our most vulnerable residents, Mountain View Home has served the Abbotsford-Chilliwack community for over 30 years. Set in an idyllic pastoral setting, Mountain View offers a place where people dealing with serious and persistent mental illness can recover and lead a comfortable and fulfilling life.

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Within this rural setting, the residents can take advantage of activities not offered in an urban area such as taking care of livestock, learning garden skills and having a large open space to reflect when they're experiencing a difficult day.

In the nearby village of Yarrow, a short bike ride away, we've heard from the community members that residents of Mountain View have been welcomed and become valuable members of the area. Not only does Mountain View offer a calm, tranquil setting where residents can convalesce and get better; they have also had success in providing the skills and resources residents can use to become more independent and eventually transition back into the community.

Some of the graduates of Mountain View have told stories of how far down they were upon entering the facility and with the consistent and caring attention of the staff have eventually built up their skills to transition back into independent community living, a future at one time they themselves thought to be impossible. The Newby family and their well-trained and dedicated staff should be commended on the efforts they have made over the last 30 years to increase the quality of life and give hope to so many of our most vulnerable and often forgotten residents.

B.C. HOP FEST AND
CRAFT BEER INDUSTRY

D. Plecas: Early in October, I had the opportunity to celebrate all things hoppy. October is Craft Beer Month in B.C., and I had the pleasure of joining 500 people at B.C. Hop Fest, Canada's first wet-hop beer festival held in Abbotsford.

This event brought together B.C. beer, food vendors and entertainment. Held at Kinloch Farms, a working hop farm in Abbotsford, this event celebrated all things local. The B.C. Hop Fest brought together 17 of B.C.'s best breweries to Abbotsford to showcase their fresh beer offerings.

Wet-hop beer requires freshly picked hops to be thrown into a brew kettle within 24 hours. This means that wet-hop beer is only available in early fall at hop harvest time. The Fraser Valley is one of the best hop-growing environments in the Pacific Northwest. This event celebrates the resurgence of B.C.'s hop-growing industry.

Hop farming in B.C. dates back to the 1860s, but it died out in 1990. However, thanks to the province's craft beer boom, hops are once again a feasible crop. There are 113 breweries in B.C., more than three-quarters of which are craft breweries. Craft beer sales in B.C. have almost tripled in the last five years, and many of these craft breweries are looking for locally grown hops.

I want to extend my congratulations to the organizers of this popular event and wish them good luck in next year's B.C. Hop Fest.

Oral Questions

GOVERNMENT RESPONSE TO DEATHS OF
YOUTH IN CARE AND AGING OUT OF CARE

J. Horgan: For months, we've been raising concerns about the absence of leadership in the Ministry of Children and Family Development. Yesterday, we were exposed to the cynical spectacle of the ministry responding to the representative's report on the life of Paige by releasing their response at 3 p.m. the day of the federal election, clearly designed to avoid attention to their response. Cynicism will do nothing to restore confidence in the ministry.

Beyond that, tragically, we learned again last week of the death of another child in care. Nick Lang was just 15 years old when he lost his life. He had been in the care of Children and Families in a voluntary situation. His parents turned over Nick, who had addiction issues, to the ministry so that he could get the appropriate care that he needed to address his addictions. Sadly, he didn't make it through six days in a foster-family home because he didn't have the supports that he needed.

My question is to the minister. The family wasn't notified of Nick's death until six days later. Can the minister explain why it is that the ministry put the child in an inappropriate location and then didn't advise the parents of his death?

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Hon. S. Cadieux: I have complete sympathy for Mr. Lang and his family, given the issue that they're dealing with, dealing with the tragic loss of their son.
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As the member well knows, we cannot talk about specifics of cases in the House. But what I will say is, again, that I understand that a family would want answers in a tragic circumstance like this. In terms of getting those answers, the ministry has ordered an external review, which is nearing completion. Matters like this are also reported to the Representative for Children and Youth, who can also review.

Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Official Opposition on a supplemental.

J. Horgan: While we were away for a week, we learned that the death of Carly Fraser will not be reviewed by the ministry because she died 20 hours 35 minutes after aging out of care. And now we learn that Nick was put in a foster home without adequate supports. The family did the best they could. They weren't given the information they needed to protect Nick.

The result is tragedy — a direct result, I would argue, of policy decisions and funding decisions that have been made by this government and, specifically, this minister. We have seen the lowest number of child protection staff in place in a decade. That's confirmed by the BCGEU and the children's representative.

The minister continues to make the case that things are getting better, but it seems every single day they're getting worse. My question to her is: why is it that her policies and her funding decisions are leaving vulnerable children at risk in British Columbia?

Hon. S. Cadieux: The member is wrong. In fact, the front-line staffing for child protection is at its highest in a number of years, with the addition of over 110 new positions over the last year and another 90 scheduled to be hired before January.

We did that in response to work that we had done with the GEU on staffing and workload issues in the ministry — agreed that more hands were needed. Last year in November, we announced our approach to getting those people on the ground. That included the hiring of 200 new people over the next year, or before January of 2016, and a centralization of a number of administrative functions to take away from some of the administrative burden on those front-line workers so they could spend time with their clients.

Madame Speaker: The Leader of the Official Opposition on a further supplemental.

J. Horgan: The suffering of the Lang family didn't end with the passing of their son Nick. After he passed away, Nick's father spoke to the media about their situation, and the response from the ministry was swift. A letter from government lawyers said that Peter may well have breached section 110 of the Youth Criminal Justice Act. The family believes this is trying to silence them so they cannot speak about the passing of their son.

They got the letter very quickly after speaking to the media even though they had to wait to learn of the passing of their son. Mr. Lang said the following in response to the letter from ministry staff: "I'm surprised by the expeditious action by MCFD on this alleged breach. Perhaps if the ministry was this expeditious with Nick in the spring of 2015, my son would still be alive."

Harsh words from a grieving father. But absolutely outrageous behaviour by the government, protecting itself rather than protecting children in British Columbia. Certainly, the minister can see — anyone can see — that this type of letter is provocative and absolutely unnecessary.

Nick is dead. Peter is grieving, and the government that he put his child in care of writes him a letter telling him to shut up. That's outrageous. Certainly the minister sees that.

Madame Speaker: Member. Member.

I would caution all members on the use of parliamentary language.

Hon. S. Cadieux: My heart goes out to the Lang family. They have suffered a very tragic loss, and, as any family would, they want answers. I understand that. That is why an external review is being undertaken, and I expect that we will get the answers to their questions through that review.

[1030]

I understand that Mr. Lang received a copy of a letter that was sent to his counsel advising of publication restrictions imposed by legislation. I have spoken to ministry officials to ensure that their intent was simply to provide information.

I understand that these are very, very difficult issues for the family — very emotional issues, absolutely — and I understand that the legal considerations around this are very challenging for them. But I will look forward to that review and to receiving the information that, hopefully, will give the family some closure.

C. James: I'd suggest to the minister and to all of the government that if they gave the children the care they needed, they wouldn't be looking at all these reviews. That's what's needed in this province.

Nick left his parents a voice mail three days before he died. He was clearly in distress, so his parents reached out. They reached out to the social workers for three days. By the time the social workers responded, it was too late. Yet when Peter Lang spoke out to speak out for his son, the government lawyer sent him a letter within 24 hours to silence him. That was the government's priority — sending a letter to Peter Lang to keep him quiet.

Doesn't the Minister of Children and Families see that her ministry has its priorities completely reversed?
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Hon. S. Cadieux: As I've said, this family is dealing with a very tragic loss. The loss of any child is just unfathomable. They want answers. I understand that. But every day, the people on the front lines of the Ministry of Children and Families are working to protect children and youth. It is their sole mission.

We will wait for the external review to be completed, and as is always the case with the death of a child in care, the representative also has the ability to review should she feel that our review is not sufficient.

Madame Speaker: Victoria–Beacon Hill on a supplemental.

CHILD PROTECTION SYSTEM AND STAFFING

C. James: Those workers on the front line are calling out for resources to help them do their job. That's the leadership they're asking for and not getting from this minister and from this government.

The children's representative released a report that shows that we have fewer social workers now than we did in 2002. The result is that children aren't getting the care that they need and that they deserve from the government — children like Nick Lang, like Paige, like Alex Gervais, children like Carly Fraser and Alex Malamalatabua.

It's clear that a decade and a half of cuts to this ministry has left it without the resources it needs to protect children — those workers on the front line without the resources they need to protect children. When will this minister recognize that if she can't deliver the resources, the much-needed resources, to struggling social workers, then she is just part of the problem?

Hon. S. Cadieux: Again, the member is wrong. We have been addressing the staffing issues in the ministry significantly with the addition of 110 new front-line social workers in child protection, and we're on track to hire an additional 90 before the end of the year.

The work in child protection is difficult. That is true. The workers do an incredible job working with the families and children that they serve. The complexity of those cases is increasing, and that is adding new and additional challenges to the ministry.

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But at the same time, we are having more and more success working with families to keep kids in their homes and not bring them into care, which is why we have the fewest number of children in care as we've had in the last 15 years.

K. Corrigan: The independent children's representative said there have only been 19 new social workers — not 110, as the minister knows well — added since last year. I'm going to take the representative's words over the minister, a minister who seems more interested in protecting herself and her government than in protecting the children of this province.

The representative found offices so understaffed they couldn't even answer the phone. The representative had to personally report to the director six incidents where the children were at risk. Children were left for months in dangerous situations because there was no one there to pick up the phone.

Is that really the best this government can do? Why is this government not there for neglected and abused kids in this province?

Hon. S. Cadieux: I am certain that my numbers are correct, given that this side of the House pays those salaries. I know how many people are on the front line today.

The work in this ministry is some of the toughest work in government, and the workers do a tremendous job. As was noted last year in November, when we announced the additional staffing and changes to our workforce…. When we made those announcements last November, we did that with an acknowledgment that there were challenges in offices around the province, most significantly in rural and remote communities, and we have addressed that through this year.

Madame Speaker: Burnaby–Deer Lake on a supplemental.

K. Corrigan: Well, the report says that the severe understaffing is not just in rural communities. It's in communities, urban and rural, all across this province.

Over the past two years, the minister didn't even spend her full child protection budget, and the number of children protection workers plummeted to the lowest point in a decade and a half. This minister left more than $5 million on the table, and Paige, Isabella, Alex Gervais, Carly Fraser, Robbie Robinson and Nick Lang paid the price.

Will the minister take responsibility for her decision to put saving money above saving these children?

Hon. S. Cadieux: On average, the ministry was only spending about 96 percent of its staffing budget because of difficulty recruiting, challenges in how we recruited. We've made changes. We've changed the way we hire. For MCFD, we are in a constant hiring process so that we have no delays. We are at the highest staffing levels we have ever been at in the ministry — so long as we can look back.

We have 110 additional people on the front lines in child protection right now over last year. We will hire an additional 90 before January, and we're well on track to make sure that all of our offices are fully staffed.

N. Simons: What makes this situation so troubling for me, as a former social worker, is that this minister and this government have known about this problem
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for years. It's clear that the government used keeping vacancies open in the Ministry of Children and Families in order to meet their internal budgetary requirements. This goes to the core of the temperament of this government — that this is where they're going to find their savings, after promising that they never would.

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The situation in ministry offices across the province is "perilous," to quote the representative. Social workers are unable to consistently meet the standards. You think the social workers like it when they can't meet the standards? These social workers are trying. But you know what? They've been frustrated because they've been waiting for support, waiting for people to come and fill up the front lines where it's necessary.

I cannot understand how a government can be trusted now, after they've been using vacancies in order to meet budgetary requirements in the Ministry of Children and Family Development. How can the minister reassure us that we can believe them this time?

Hon. S. Cadieux: As I said, after doing significant work with the BCGEU on the challenges our front line was facing, last year, in November, I announced that we would be hiring an additional 200 people to add to that front line, that we had implemented a team of social workers — experienced social workers whose sole job would be to go into offices that were facing shortages in staffing so they could backfill and ensure that those offices had the support they needed while new hires were done.

We have doubled the capacity of that team. It's working exceptionally well, and it will continue to stay in place. And we have 110 new people on the front lines. We've changed the way we're doing business, to take administrative duties away from those social workers so they have more time to spend with their clients.

It's working. It takes time to implement. With the changes in how we're now doing our hiring, on a quarterly basis, we will ensure that we are able to keep all of our front-line spaces filled.

MOUNTAIN VIEW FACILITY CLOSING AND
MENTAL HEALTH BEDS IN FRASER VALLEY

S. Hammell: Gordon is someone with serious and persistent mental illness. At 17, he was committed to Riverview, and when it closed, he was transferred to Mountain View. This is the only real home Gordon has known, and he has lived there since 1999. When Gordon learned Mountain View was closing and he would be shuffled to a new facility, his mental health quickly deteriorated, and he is now in a psychiatric ward at the Abbotsford Regional Hospital.

To the Minister of Health, does he think a psychiatric ward is a better place for Gordon than the Mountain View Home was?

Hon. T. Lake: To the member, I know that she has real concern for these families, as I do as well. Mental illness can strike any family, and ensuring the right resources are available to those families is extremely important.

Fraser Health is making changes in a year, so families have been notified of those changes. All the people at Mountain View that want to continue with 24-7 residential care in the same model can do that at the new Marshall Road facility, plus there will be extra opportunities to go into assisted living and independent living with supports, because we know one thing about mental health: it's not a one-size-fits-all proposition. We have to tailor the response and the resources to each individual.

I've asked Fraser Health to make sure we are working with families closely, ensuring that they understand the new model of care, the new opportunities for a continuum of care that meets the needs of those families.

Madame Speaker: Surrey–Green Timbers on a supplemental.

S. Hammell: Gordon lived a satisfying and meaningful life at Mountain View Home for 16 years until this Liberal government's decision to close his home threw him into chaos, a downward spiral his mother isn't sure he will recover from. To the Minister of Health: as the Minister of Health, how do you justify triggering a crisis in Gordon's life, placing him in a psychiatric ward and closing the only real home he has ever known?

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Hon. T. Lake: The member knows very well that we have a regional health authority system that responds to the needs of the population that they serve. In this case, Fraser Health is proposing changes to the way that mental health services are provided to some families. I believe those changes will result in greater care for families, for more opportunities for families and their loved ones who are receiving treatment to have a continuum of care that will allow them to be reintegrated back into community.

When we make changes — because change is always difficult — those changes must be made with the patients and their families. This is why I've asked Fraser Health to spend time with each of these families to make sure they understand the nature of the change, so they can reassure them that they will have opportunities to have a continuum of care that meets their needs, and Fraser Health will do that.

J. Darcy: The minister talks about change. Let's be clear what this change means. There will be a net loss of 25 beds for people with the most severe mental health issues, like schizophrenia — that's what the change means — and about 400 less beds than Fraser Health said it needs by 2016.

The minister says he's concerned about the families. Well, we've heard firsthand from the residents of
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Mountain View Home that before they lived there, they were living on the street. Many of them were battling addiction. It was only through the work and the dedication of the staff that they have recovered enough to lead satisfying and hopeful lives. Many of these residents have told us that with the closure of Mountain View, they worry about being back on the street, or worse. This is unacceptable. The residents and families and staff of Mountain View deserve better from this government.

My question is to the Minister of Health. Will you bring calm to the lives that you've disrupted and commit to keeping Mountain View open?

Hon. T. Lake: The member is just wrong. This is not a reduction. In fact, the 25-bed Mountain View Home…. The change will allow the funding to be reinvested in the new 50-bed Marshall Road residential campus. Going from 25 to 50 is not a reduction.

In fact, the change increases the number of mental health beds in the community from 58 to 68 and provides a wider range of services, as I mentioned. When Marshall Road opens in 2016, Fraser Health will have increased the mental health housing capacity in Abbotsford by 62 spaces since 2007 and by 450 spaces across all of Fraser Health, with a budget increase in the last three years of 15 percent. That is not a reduction. That is an increase in supports to families and patients dealing with mental health.

HUMAN RIGHTS TRIBUNAL RULING ON
CONDUCT OF COLLEGE OF VETERINARIANS

H. Bains: For over a decade, Indo-Canadian veterinarians have been fighting the racism directed against them by their own college, the college of veterinary medicine, formerly known as the B.C. veterinary medical association. For the past decade, this side of the House has been bringing up this issue with minister after minister after minister, and every minister's response has been: "It's before the tribunal, so we cannot comment."

Well, the tribunal has issued a ruling, one that has been over a decade in the making, and it's unequivocal. It's clear. The college is guilty of systemic racial discrimination.

My question is to the Minister of Justice. What will she do to ensure that the tribunal's order is implemented and enforced immediately?

[1050]

Hon. N. Letnick: On this side of the House as well as on the other side of the House, we do not stand for racism in any form in British Columbia. Indeed, that's why I met with the hon. member this past year to discuss the issue. We did say at that time that we sympathize are the veterans that had brought forward their case.

I understand the college is reviewing the decision. It's over 2,000 pages. I think it's important to provide them an opportunity to review the case and make their comments known before I comment any further, specifically, on what we would do.

Madame Speaker: The member for Surrey-Newton on a supplemental.

H. Bains: It's good for the Minister of Agriculture to stand up. It is the Minister of Justice's responsibility to make sure the law is enforced in this province.

From the ruling: "The BCVMA engaged in systemic discrimination." Another quote: "I have concluded that there were specific instances of discrimination against individual complainants." Another quote: "The BCVMA is ordered to cease discrimination."

If this doesn't embarrass and bring shame to this government, I don't know what will. After spending millions in legal fees and ten years of process, the college is still refusing to follow the order.

My question, again, to the Minister of Justice is: is she going to put an end to this discrimination, or will she continue to hide behind the independent office of the college and continue to allow the college to do what they've been doing — discrimination against their own members?

Hon. N. Letnick: The B.C. government respects the decisions of the human rights tribunal. It also respects the independence of the tribunal in coming to their decisions. I find it quite puzzling and actually disconcerting that the member opposite would try to make this into a political issue, when, indeed, it is not.

The decision against the veterinarians is a serious one. It's a serious one that requires the veterinarians to look at the report and then make their comments known as to what they plan on doing. Once they've done that, the government will be very happy to provide comment.

D. Eby: We have college in British Columbia that's been found to have been engaging in racist and discriminatory conduct. It took ten years for the veterinarians to get to this point. It took more than $1 million for them to get to this point.

This human rights tribunal system was set up to protect the most vulnerable people in our society. Clearly, it is not working. Why is the Attorney General tolerating a human rights tribunal system that takes ten years and more than $1 million to reach a finding of discrimination and racism and not acting when a college defies their order?

Hon. N. Letnick: Again, we expect all organizations in the province to respect the human rights of every citizen in this province. Again, I find it quite astounding that the members opposite would try to make this into a political issue. The college of veterinarians reports to the Minister of Agriculture. I've been following the file, along with the
[ Page 9581 ]
members opposite. We have met to discuss this matter. We said we would take the appropriate action.

We will look at the results of the feedback of the comments from the college after they've had a chance to look at the report. It's over 2,000 pages, I understand. And then the members opposite will have their answer.

[End of question period.]

Motions Without Notice

MEMBERSHIP OF HEALTH COMMITTEE

Hon. M. de Jong: By leave, I move:

[That Marc Dalton, MLA be appointed to replace Richard Lee, MLA as a Member of the Select Standing Committee on Health.]

Motion approved.

Tabling Documents

Hon. S. Anton: I have the honour to present the Public Guardian and Trustee of B.C. annual report 2014-2015.

[1055]

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. de Jong: Continued committee stage debate on Bill 38, the Franchises Act.

Committee of the Whole House

BILL 38 — FRANCHISES ACT

(continued)

The House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Bill 38; R. Chouhan in the chair.

The committee met at 10:58 a.m.

On section 5 (continued).

A. Dix: Obviously, section 5, "Disclosure," is an important section of the legislation.

To start on a sort of secondary issue, first of all…. Then we'll get into, probably, if it pleases the minister, the discussion of the regulations on this section, rather than in the regulations section pursuant to this section, if that works. We can do it the other way as well. It's not a problem.

I guess the first question around this question of disclosure I'd like to ask is…. We're now in a period where, hopefully, in the next short period of time, the bill will pass the Legislature. It will receive royal assent, and then we'll be in a period where we have a bill passed by the Legislature awaiting regulations.

[1100]

Can the minister describe the intent of the government with respect to preceding the regulations? We could be in a period where we have — a fairly lengthy period, potentially…. In this case, of course, in the information provided by the B.C. Law Institute, we have, fortunately, regulations laid out as well — which, I presume, the minister is intending to guide the government in terms of its proclamation of the regulations.

Can the minister, just for starters, talk about, in terms of timing, when she sees the government proceeding with the regulations pursuant to the Franchises Act?

Hon. C. Oakes: I would like, if I may, to introduce…. I have new staff today, so I would like to introduce them. We have Renee, Nancy and Christine with us to support us through these proceedings today.

We will be continuing to work with the advisory group as well as the B.C. Law Institute on the regulations. The preliminary work — as the member opposite did note, they have been working through what those regulations will look like.

As far as timing, we do need to work with the bar association as well as the franchise association to ensure…. As the hon. member opposite mentioned in our previous dialogue, it's important that we have the necessary education and that both the franchise and the bar associations understand the regulations that will actually put the act in force.

A. Dix: Just to follow up with that. And perhaps the minister…. Sometimes it's important, when people have questions, to get the full names of her team there. It would be helpful the next time around.

In terms of the timing, therefore…. The minister talked about further consultation with the bar association, and the minister talked about talking to associations of franchisors. Is the minister…? Presumably, the minister and the government intend to talk to franchisees as well.

It seems, to me anyway, that in terms of the classes of people involved in this process, the two most important — who will see the most change in their business structure — are franchisors who principally do business in British Columbia. Franchisors who do business across Canada almost certainly will have been in contact with a franchise act such as this, given the parallels with Ontario and Alberta and Manitoba, etc. — and obviously franchisees in the province. So presumably, the consultation will include that.

I think, just to come back to the question of timing, this is often important in terms of we will be in a legislative period where people will have heard that there are protections in place without those protections actually being in place — this period of regulation.

[1105]

You don't want, in fact, a delay on the side of regulations to defer the positive economic effects of the legislation for too long. The minister talked about the
[ Page 9582 ]
consultations, but in terms of the timing of those consultations, how long does she expect them to take?

Hon. C. Oakes: I would like to put on record the full names. Thank you for that good piece of advice. We have Nancy Carter, Renee Mulligan and Christine Little joining us today.

For the question on the timing — first of all, if I may put a clarification for that, it is the franchises. The dialogue was just not specifically about the education of franchisors. It was franchises and franchisors.

I think what is critically important also in this specific piece, to ensure that the legal community has full time to understand the specifics of this legislation and the regulations that we'll be bringing into force, is the legal team that supports the franchisees and franchisors when they are signing these kinds of documents. As well, it's important to note that the regulations that we put forward supporting this legislation needs to meet B.C. drafting conventions. We need to ensure that the conjunction with other laws that are currently in place in British Columbia is in force when we're looking at the regulations.

Perhaps it might be important for the member opposite to understand some of the types of disclosure information that we'll be looking at as we go through the dialogue around regulations. It's looking at information around audited financial statements; the business background of the franchisor, such as directors; details on any fraud convictions or civil lawsuits or bankruptcies; franchisees' cost of establishing the franchise; other fees; franchisors' policies and guarantees; annual operating costs; earning projection statements; terms and conditions of the financing arrangements.

Training and other assistance provided — manuals, no manuals; advertising; marketing funds; franchisors' obligations to conduct marketing; rebates and commissioners; policies around location areas, proximity between existing franchisees; rights to trademarks; licence, registration permissions required under the law; and termination of agreements — those are the types of things that we'll be in dialogue on with the advisory group that we have in place as we look from the preliminary side of what regulations will be put in force to put this legislation in force as well.

That kind of gives you a general idea of the type of work that needs to be put in place before this can be enforced.

[1110]

A. Dix: The minister has referred to the subjects. All of the subjects she mentioned are included in the draft regulation provided by the B.C. Law Institute. Is the minister confirming that all of those aspects will be touched on in the regulations?

Hon. C. Oakes: The disclosure regulations will have the same requirements as the other five provinces in Canada with franchise legislation.

We will be reviewing the items that we identified earlier as part of the wholesome dialogue around the types of information that need to be included in regulation. But we'll also be ensuring that there is that fulsome conversation, because it has to, again, meet B.C. drafting convention. As well, it needs to be working in conjunction with other B.C. laws.

A. Dix: Just as a matter of curiosity. I've been in touch…. We've dealt with some cases with a few franchise lawyers in B.C. Almost all of the ones who deal prominently with franchises in B.C. were already involved in the consultation and are fully involved in this process, so I suspect there wasn't any major objection to the Franchises Act legislation coming forward.

I'll just try one more time, and then we'll move on. But I want just one more time to…. To be specific, does the minister have a plan in terms of the bringing into force of this law? We are in one of those periods where a person might reasonably believe that the law supports them, but for the next six months, until it comes into force, it won't — or eight months or a year or 18 months or two years or longer than that.

I guess I wanted to ask the minister what her plan was, if she was…. If a potential franchisee came to her and said, "I want to wait until I have the protections of this law to make this investment," how long should they wait?

Hon. C. Oakes: Our plan moving forward is to continue the work that we did with the advisory committee that worked very diligently on ensuring that we have this legislation. We'll be working on an education campaign with the franchise community. That includes both franchisors and franchisees.

As well, we'll be working with the legal community to ensure that the information is out there. As the member opposite did mention, the legal community seems up to date if they've worked in other provinces on this. We want to ensure that we are enhancing upon that.

As well, I think what's critically important — and we mentioned that in the previous sections…. One of the things that is important about the B.C. Franchises Act that we're implementing is we're really taking the opportunity to learn what the five other provinces that have implemented a franchises act….

[1115]

We've learned opportunities for us to improve upon this legislation. We've seen it in the legislation. We plan to continue that work of identifying where work has been done on the regulation side with the other five provinces. If there are elements that we can improve upon, we are certainly committed to doing that.

I think an important example of that — it's just one of many examples on the legislation side — is that we heard loud and clear that there needed to be an ability to send the disclosure documents via e-mail. In previous versions,
[ Page 9583 ]
it was by fax, by registered mail. One of the things that we felt critically important in this legislation was that it was modern. It was up to date. We will be ensuring that the regulations are modern, up to date, learning best practices from the other five provinces.

A. Dix: The minister referred to their education plan. Perhaps the minister could describe that.

In addition, it seems to me reasonable, at least, that some documents be provided in a number of other languages than English in British Columbia — for example, Chinese text, Vietnamese, Korean, Punjabi and other languages. Is that the government's intention?

Hon. C. Oakes: We will continue to work with the Canadian Franchise Association and various organizations that work directly with stakeholders in the franchise community. We will also work with the organizations that provide the legal-education support for…. We will be providing that to those educational organizations that support educating members of the bar.

We should also remember that because these are contractual agreements between franchisees and franchisors, that is the scope of the work that we will be moving forward with.

A. Dix: Surely the most important part of the education would be for potential franchisees. After all, the thrust of this legislation, on the whole, is to protect their rights, to level the playing field between franchisors and franchisees, to both create opportunity but also to provide legal support and protection and clarity for franchisees.

The minister referred, for example, to the issue of electronic transmission. One might argue that the Electronic Transactions Act provides that already. But one of the strong arguments to put it clearly in this act is so that someone reading the act will know that that fulfils that provision clearly. So a potential franchisee would know that, receiving something by e-mail, they don't have to refer to another act. It's right here in their legislation.

[1120]

The education campaign, as described by the minister, is to talk to organizations and to the bar. Presumably, though, because I asked the question…. I don't know if the minister was responding no to what I was saying or whether she was just avoiding what I was saying.

I'll try it again. I mean, what material will be provided from the government of British Columbia to potential franchisees to inform them of their rights under this new legislation?

Hon. C. Oakes: I know that we canvassed this question with the hon. member from Burnaby. The education campaign will be providing information about the new Franchises Act on a website, ensuring the information gets out to the Canadian Franchise Association as well as the legal community.

As well, we will be reaching out to the small business community. You are right. The franchise community in British Columbia working closely with small business associations is also critically important. Thank you for bringing that forward. We'll make sure we add the small business community in that education process as well.

A. Dix: I specifically asked whether the minister intended to provide information about the new Franchises Act in languages other than English.

[1125]

Hon. C. Oakes: The service providers that we listed in a previous answer on the education side are largely out of the scope of government. These organizations — such as the bar association, the franchise association, the Canadian Bar Association…. We will certainly work closely with them to provide them with information, supporting them on what the Franchises Act looks like. These organizations, in turn, part of whose responsibilities is ensuring that their stakeholders have that education component, will work with their franchisor and franchisee stakeholders.

A. Dix: When the minister referred earlier to an education campaign being necessary before bringing the bill into force, she meant somebody else's education campaign, it sounds like.

I guess I'll ask, since the minister didn't respond to…. I tried to make it more direct — just one sentence, the last question. I'll ask it again, directly, because the minister didn't answer, in fact, the member for Burnaby-Lougheed on this question and hasn't answered me so far.

Will the government be taking, on its own accord, an effort to ensure that information about the new Franchises Act…? Given what we all know in British Columbia is the great interest from, especially, new immigrant communities in investing in this form of small business, will the government provide information about the new Franchises Act, which changes and levels the playing field in this important area of business, in languages other than English?

Hon. C. Oakes: I have answered this question on numerous occasions. I'm sorry if it's not the answer that the member wants to perceive.

To be clear, our educational component, as it is with other legal legislation that we put in place, is that we work with our stakeholders. In this particular case, our plan on education is that we will be providing information on the new Franchises Act to the Canadian Franchise Association.

We will be providing this information to the bar association. We will be providing this information to organ-
[ Page 9584 ]
izations that directly work with stakeholders to ensure that they are informed on the new Franchises Act. We will work closely with these stakeholders to ensure that they have the material they need to provide that education to that community.

We've answered this question. This is how the educational plan is to move forward.

A. Dix: You ask directly: "Will information be provided by the government in languages other than English?" Now, there are only three possible answers to that question from the minister. One is yes. The other is no. It's a helpful question. It's not intended to trap the minister in any possible way. There is either: "Yes, we will do that" or "No, we will not do that."

The minister wanted No. 3. I think No. 3 will really help the minister here. So No. 3 is: "Good idea. We'll take a look at it." Instead, we get stuff like: "We'll be reaching out to the advisory group."

[1130]

In fact, the minister said she has answered that one direct question, which I thought would take about 12 seconds to answer, and she has routinely not answered the question. Now, I'm hopeful, given these three possible answers, that we might get No. (c) this time.

The answer was asked, yes, directly by the member for Burnaby-Lougheed. It was asked by me three times. That's the only question I want to ask. Is the minister going to do that? I think it's a reasonable question. Not one that I wanted to ask five times, but as I await an answer to a pretty reasonable and simple question, I'll give the minister another chance to do so.

Hon. C. Oakes: The member opposite, I'm sure, is familiar with the B.C. bar association. I'm not sure if the member opposite is suggesting for one moment that government start to dictate to the B.C. bar association on the forms and types of information on the information that we put out.

This is not a government program. Information will be available on a website. We'll work closely with organizations that provide education to stakeholders.

A. Dix: I mean, that is ridiculous. It is ridiculous. People have heard five times a very simple question asked. We're not dictating to the Canadian Bar Association. This isn't the annual general meeting of the Canadian Bar Association we're holding here. It's the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, where we're passing a law called the Franchises Act.

The minister raised the fact that the government couldn't say, in a previous non-answer, when the regulations would be ready because one of the things they were doing was an education campaign. So reasonably, as a member of the opposition, I asked: "Well, what is the education campaign?"

Apparently, the minister wants to educate the people who essentially drafted the legislation. We want, and I think the minister should want, to inform the people of B.C. who will have to follow the act. It's pretty straightforward.

I have the Hansard from the Thursday before our break. The minister didn't answer it then. Will the minister, in the government's information…?

The minister referred to a website that will contain the government's information. Will she provide pamphlets or information on the website that she referred to in the education campaign that she said she was going to do, the government was going to do…? Will she provide that information in languages other than English?

Hon. C. Oakes: This act is about the law of contracts for franchises. Franchisees and franchisors, as we said before, rely on their lawyers. We intend to post, on the Ministry of Small Business, the information.

We are happy to work with multicultural organizations. If they have stakeholders that would like this information translated, we'd be happy to work with multicultural organizations as part of the other organizations that we'll be working with on this campaign.

[1135]

A. Dix: Well, I'm inspired by the progress that we've made already. I think it's okay that that was answer No. 6 instead of answer No. 1. To each their own.

On one of the questions that's going to be a key element of disclosure and that is a very challenging element of disclosure with respect to franchisors and franchisees is the issue of earnings projections. The minister referred to this in her answer to a previous question, to this being one of the issues that will be governed by regulations pursuant to the Franchises Act.

Some people analyzing franchise acts have argued that this issue of earnings projections and what is required to satisfy…. Remember you are talking about a disclosure document not referring to material facts but referring to projections. Some would argue that the terms by which that — which is very important….

You're going to get a franchise in food services, and you're told that it will produce $500,000 in revenue in the course of a year, in a projection in that neighbourhood, based on certain market conditions. You're not providing a material fact. It hasn't happened yet, because obviously, the franchise agreement isn't in place.

Can the minister describe why — as the Manitoba Law Reform Commission proposed, and others — the government has decided…? I think it's reasonable that they decided to deal with that in regulation, but I just want to ensure that they are. How does the government want to deal with this critical issue of projections, which will be an important part of any disclosure agreement between franchisees and franchisors?
[ Page 9585 ]

Hon. C. Oakes: It is exactly the type of important dialogue and work that is necessary to look at. I think the member opposite is looking more at the earning projections as pertain in section 7. But the type of disclosure information that I had previously listed in the questions are exactly….

When we're looking at the regulation, they're critically important. That's why we need to be ensuring that we're meeting with the advisory group and that we are making sure those regulations are as fulsome as possible.

A. Dix: The minister is confirming that this issue of financial projection will be dealt with in the regulations.

Hon. C. Oakes: As I had mentioned in a previous answer, earning projections are one of the items that I had listed around disclosure information that we'll be reviewing under regulation.

A. Dix: Is it the minister's view…? The definition of "material fact" means "any information about the business, operations, capital or control of the franchisor or franchisor's associate, or about the franchise or the franchise system, that would reasonably be expected to have a significant effect on the value or price of the franchise to be granted or on the decision to acquire the franchise."

Does that apply to projections?

[1140]

Hon. C. Oakes: The regulations, obviously, have not been drafted, so it is in the realm of speculation that we are looking at. But we've listed the types of disclosure information that we will be looking at. It is very possible and likely to be included as…. The items that we had previously listed as disclosure information could…. It is very likely to be a material fact.

A. Dix: Are projections, according to the government, matters of material fact?

Hon. C. Oakes: Again, it depends on what disclosure information will be identified within the regulation.

A. Dix: Of course, in this case, we have a draft of the regulations with respect to the disclosure document. That may not always be the case, although often it's the case with legislation already.

I'm asking, under the definition of "material fact" that exists in the legislation and under this provision on disclosure, whether a projection would be a matter of material fact. That's a simple question.

Hon. C. Oakes: Again, what the member opposite was…. A preliminary, through the B.C. Law Institute, on what the regulations could look like….

Again, it's speculative, because we have to do the work with the advisory group to determine exactly what will be included as part of the disclosure information. So at this point, it's speculative. It is likely to be included, but at this point, without us having actually drafted the regulation, we can't answer that question.

A. Dix: The minister has repeatedly said this is based on an improvement on other province's legislation, so it's hard to imagine that it wouldn't be there.

The definition of "material fact," which we have dealt with previously here, as it applies to section 5, "Disclosure," "means any information about the business, operations, capital or control of the franchisor or franchisor's associate."

Why is it so hard to say whether the issue of projections would be treated as a material fact?

[1145]

B. Routley: I seek leave to make an introduction.

Leave granted.

Introductions by Members

B. Routley: I'd like to thank this House for this opportunity to welcome these guests from the Cowichan Valley. We have with us today a group from Queen Margaret's School, which is in the Duncan area, in the Cowichan Valley. There are 28 grade 11 students, two adults and their teacher Ms. Alison O'Marra-Armstrong. Please join me in welcoming these guests.

Debate Continued

Hon. C. Oakes: The hon. member opposite wants us to make a commitment on a regulation that currently doesn't exist.

A. Dix: I'm merely asking about the application of the law to this section on disclosure. Apparently, the government doesn't know whether a projection constitutes information.

In any event, my next question. Because we don't have too much time, I'll do some shorter questions so we get to the more substantive ones on this section of the bill after the lunch break. With respect to Section 5(10) — I'll just jump ahead within Section 5, if I have your permission, hon. Chair — is the government of British Columbia a franchisor at present?

Hon. C. Oakes: Yes, indeed, our government is a franchisor. We provide the WorldHost Training Services for customer service. In fact, I am a SuperHost trainer — so very familiar with the WorldHost program.

A. Dix: With respect to the issue of exemptions from
[ Page 9586 ]
this provision of the Franchises Act…. I'm just doing a couple of short questions until we return to the main subject of this section. One of the possible exemptions from that is: "…if the prospective franchisee is investing an amount greater than a prescribed amount in the acquisition of a franchise."

[1150]

This is one area where the different jurisdictions have a different view of what that constitutes. I'm wondering whether the minister prefers Alberta or New Brunswick.

Hon. C. Oakes: I think the member opposite was just testing us, because, of course, Alberta and New Brunswick don't have this particular…. We've looked at the Ontario model, and we've looked at how we can improve upon that.

A. Dix: You like the Ontario model. That's good. The members opposite try and be obscure about which federal party they're supporting. I was actually trying to figure that out for the minister. But that's okay.

Just to deal with a couple of the minor questions before lunch. The provision in section 5(11)…. Can the minister just describe the intent of saying that the act doesn't apply in cases where the sole subject of the franchise agreement is the designation of a particular location or area for the franchise?

Hon. C. Oakes: Section 5(11). We want to ensure that we don't trigger disclosure…. Obviously, when we talk about the disclosure documents, we're talking about a large set of information that can, as we have discussed, be included. In addition to that, there are ancillary documents, and those could be confidentiality agreements. It could be location agreements. One of the things we want to ensure in this section is that we don't want to create the ability to trigger the rescission remedy under this act.

The Chair: Member, noting the hour.

A. Dix: Hon. Chair, noting the hour…. The Speaker gives me a hard time about this all the time. I always like to ensure the highest level of productivity, usually at five to seven on a Wednesday night. But given that thoughtful request from the Chair, I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The committee rose at 11:55 a.m.

The House resumed; Madame Speaker in the chair.

Committee of the Whole (Section B), having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. T. Lake moved adjournment of the House.

Madame Speaker: This House, at its rising, stands adjourned until 1:30 this afternoon.

The House adjourned at 11:56 a.m.

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