Hansard -- Monday, April 19, 2004 a.m. -- Vol. 23, No. 6 (HTML)

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY


CONTENTS

	Routine Proceedings
		Page

Point of Privilege		10113
	R. Stewart

Private Members' Statements		10113
	Crime and punishment
	K. Stewart
	Hon. R. Coleman
	A survivor story
	D. MacKay
	B. Bennett
	Community safety
	P. Sahota
	Hon. R. Coleman
	Diking and dredging in the Fraser delta
	V. Roddick
	Hon. J. van Dongen

Motions on Notice		10121
	Cruise industry (Motion 73)
	J. Bray
	M. Hunter
	S. Orr
	K. Whittred
	V. Roddick
	G. Trumper
	B. Belsey
	Working land base (Motion 46)
	B. Suffredine

R. Stewart: Mr. Speaker, this being the first appropriate time, I want to reserve my right to raise two further matters of privilege.

K. Stewart: Today I'm going to take my time to talk about crime and punishment, my general perceptions of what's going on and the current crime issues. I would also like to touch on organized crime for a while. Then I would like to talk about crime in my community and the perception of the public with regards to what crime is doing and some of the realities from my perception and statistically. I would at that time listen to a response from the Solicitor General before my concluding remarks.

I would just like to start off by discussing my experiences in the criminal justice field to give some background on my perspective as to some of the comments and observations I had. Shortly after getting out of high school, I worked for the B.C. corrections branch for ten years. I started out working in adult corrections with adults in an Outward Bound type of program — that's a highly intensive outdoors program using the outdoor landscape as a bit of a training tool — plus there was a large work component with regards to this.

After working there for about a year and a half, I was transferred due to closure of the facility to a place called Oakalla Prison, and there I had the experience for a short period of time to actually work on death row. At that point in time they were not still hanging people, but capital punishment had not yet been fully abolished. It was an interesting insight into working on a daily basis for a number of weeks with people who at that point in time weren't certain whether they would or would not be going to the gallows.

After that, I worked a number of juvenile programs, both attendance-type programs plus institutional youth programs. I worked at the youth detention centre for five years, where we had the opportunity to work with the member from White Rock. It was an interesting experience to see those people that are fairly newly involved in the criminal aspects of their lives.

My last position with the B.C. corrections branch was to set up the Vancouver Pretrial Services Centre, which was a remand facility. Remand is for people who are charged, maybe not yet convicted, or awaiting their sentence after they have been convicted. I use this as a background to express that not only did I work with youth, but I worked with adults in the most extreme cases and youth in attendance programs in probably the earliest intervention in their touching of criminal matters.

After that I worked for five years…. I was headhunted out of the government to work with a new company when a lot of the programs were being moved out of the government and set up not just provincially but nationally — a number of youth attendance programs, plus a number of programs for those in trouble with the law. We worked from programs inside the Arctic Circle to Ontario to Alberta and through British Columbia, so I got a broad spectrum of what was going on across the country.

Further to that, I also have some educational background in criminology. I got a bachelor's degree in general studies where many criminology courses were included; plus I've got a number of certificates from the Justice Institute. I say that just as a background to my general perception of people in crime.

My general perception is that 95 percent of the people you'll meet in your life are generally good, so with most of the people, you can be assured they're generally good people. This is from my experience. There are about 3 percent that are pretty self-centred and uncaring. Then about 2 percent of the people you're going to meet in your life are just plain mean. A lot of the criminal element — especially the harsher, violent criminals — would certainly fall under that.

Then there is a very, very small aspect of our society, which I would say would be about 1/10 of 1 percent, and I can use nothing else to describe them other than the fact that I believe they're evil — any terminology you want to use for that term evil. They're just people that do things beyond any comprehension of what would be considered normal.

The other thing I found, especially dealing with youth crime, is that many youth involved in crime just grow out of it. Basically, they're getting involved with a peer group that is on that negative peer element, and they are getting involved in criminal activities. Sometimes they just get into it a little heavier than they planned. Other times they realize that they have a bit of a free ride under the juvenile system, and they realize that when they become adults, they're going to stop doing this. A lot of kids that are involved with crime grow out of it.

Of course, there is another group that goes on. Having worked in the adult correctional facility and worked with many adults, I don't know too many

adults involved in crime that weren't involved with crime as youth. You don't see too many adults jumping into crime for their first time at a later stage in their life.

The current criminal issues that seem to be outstanding are car thefts, break and enters, home invasions, fraud, credit card and identity theft, and violence. Grow operations are certainly huge. Gangs are a big issue. Probably the most prolific area of crime these days is organized crime.

With regards to car thefts, we have seen some horrific car crashes with many youths killed. Interestingly enough, of the 175,000 cars a year that are stolen in Canada, in British Columbia the average car thief — if you can call it an average — would be a person who is 31 years old, an addict and has drug-related charges. It's not the youth out for the joyride that is actually stealing the majority of the cars.

With break and enters and home invasions, a lot of these are drug-related — and also grow ops for people that try and get drug moneys. Fraud — there's over $200 million a year in credit card fraud in Canada. Violence — the shootings and stabbings seem to be increasing. They're gang-related over turf wars. Grow operations — there is discussion of over 400 in our local area. Then there are the other gang issues. They are a lot of times ethnically based, but they often work together. That touches on the area of organized crime.

Just a few words with regards to organized crime. We had Mr. Douglas from the Organized Crime Agency come before a committee that I'm chair of. He had this to say: "It's safe to say that organized crime is the fastest-growing industry in the world — low investment, huge profits, little deterrence and unquenchable thirst out there in the general public for contraband."

I would like to go on to talk further about the issues of organized crime, but at this point I will leave the floor to the Solicitor General to hear his comments on what he is doing in crime.

Hon. R. Coleman: Thank you to the member. He has covered a great number of subjects in a very short period of time, so I'm going to try and deal with just a few of them.

One thing the member mentioned was car thefts, where young people or other people are stealing cars and actually engaging the law enforcement community in high-speed chases or in dangerous actions. One of the challenges with that is that we actually had to push back on car theft within our communities. As the member mentioned, a lot of this is related back into the drug trade, addictions and multiple barriers for people.

On the lower mainland of British Columbia we recently announced that we were going to expand our bait car program to 16 communities in the lower mainland, covering everywhere from basically Chilliwack to Squamish. The reason for that is that when we put the bait car program into Vancouver and tested it, we actually saw a 6 percent decrease in auto thefts in that particular community. However, at the same time we also saw a 7 percent spike in auto thefts in other communities, so what it tells you is that as we push back on crime in one area, it will pop up somewhere else unless we have a more global approach on integrated relationships to fighting crime. We've expanded the bait car program to deal with that.

There are issues in and around fraud, break and enters and those sorts of things within our communities. Although the member talked earlier or has intimated that there might be a reduction in youth crime, I'm not sure there's necessarily such a reduction of youth crime or if it's the way we actually keep our statistics with regards to it. One of the issues I see constantly is the repeat offender who, under the Youth Justice Act, comes into our custody and is out of our custody quicker than they get in, it seems, and is back on the street involved in crime again. I think we actually have to look at how we can break the mold a little bit here.

One of the things we know in our criminal justice system, particularly in the corrections side, is that the largest portion of our population that is in our criminal justice system, as far as incarceration is concerned, doesn't have a grade 12 education. It would be nice if we could look at our youth justice side and say that instead of actually giving them a two- or three-month stay in a youth justice facility or youth corrections facility, we'd tie it to education so that when you graduate from high school, you can leave our custody, or put some sort of disciplines with regards to an educational achievement when they're in our custody so they can learn the discipline of learning at a younger age so that maybe it will change their directions.

Over this last weekend there's been an unfortunate pattern of what seems to be a violent sort of crime spree taking place in our province, but they're not all interrelated. We have them in rural communities, we have them in the interior of British Columbia, and we have them on the lower mainland. My concern about that is how it's interrelated to some of the issues with regards to gang violence, where we actually have people involved in organized crime who are now basically fighting for some territory. That has led to other issues as far as people that are dealt with in one community versus another.

I think this House has heard me talk about grow ops many, many times. I know one of the members from Burnaby is going to be speaking later this morning, and I'll probably get into that a little bit more.

You know, the challenge is that we have to give an infrastructure to our law enforcement community so that they can actually get a charge approval in an expeditious manner so that they can deal with the minor crime the member describes without having such an onerous administrative thing put on them that they can't efficiently do their jobs. That's why we're going to have things like PRIME, where we can actually have people put in a report at the roadside to expedite the ability to lay a charge. That's why we actually believe that for summary conviction offences, we should give law enforcement back some powers with regards to

charge approval. Some of the stats that are going down are as a result of the fact that it takes too long for a law enforcement officer to do certain types of charges in our community. When it takes up to eight hours for one impaired driving charge, it is too long. We need to increase our efficiency so that our law enforcement community can move quickly, lay the charges that are necessary and move forward on behalf of our communities.

K. Stewart: I would like to thank the Solicitor General for his comments. I know, in talking to police forces out there, that they're very confident in his ability and the efforts he's put forward to try and make British Columbia a safer place.

In saying that, I'd just like to talk about crime and punishment again. The deterrent to crime, I have always believed, is to make the punishment for the crime as severe as the crime and the benefits a person is going to gain from that. As the Solicitor General mentioned, one of the deterrents to crime may be more non-criminal opportunities for people. Education and job opportunities certainly do enhance the opportunities that people have and would help sway them away from crime.

As I mentioned earlier, my experience shows that many people do get into criminal activities when they're younger, and it does continue on over to when they become adults. In saying that, I would like to encourage the types of youth justice programs and youth advocacy programs that we're seeing in our communities and to strongly support the encouragement of those. I know that under the new Youth Justice Act — the federal act and the provincial application of that — there is more room for intervention from the police with the youths, and they're actually required by law to do this. Now, I certainly see this as a beneficial tool as long as the resources are there for the RCMP and the local police to refer the youth to, so I'm strongly advocating that we enhance those programs.

One of the other realities of crime…. We do have statistical data, but as the Solicitor General indicated, sometimes that may not tell the true picture. The fact is that youth crime has decreased 50 percent since 1991 per capita and continues to decline, and the number of youth in custody has also declined. Why is it, then, that we have a public perception that crime is increasing and that the courts are too soft? I think part of that is because of the violent nature of the crimes and, too, how the whole gang issue, the whole drug issue or the grow op issue is now starting to invade all aspects of our community. The money that's involved with it…. A lot of rental homes are being utilized for grow ops, and it's so lucrative that the gangs and organizations are actually buying homes — relatively new homes at very high prices — and putting grow ops into them.

What comes back in as a result of the money gained by this is hand guns, trading for harder drugs. Crystal meth is a huge issue that, given the fact that we have 15 minutes to talk about crime and justice this morning…. I'm sure we could go on for hours, but I'd just like to say how much I think it's important that we do get involved with the juveniles in our community in a positive way and that when they do start straying towards that negative peer subculture that's out there, we do everything we can to help intervene and get them back on the straight and narrow.

D. MacKay: I have a very short time period to tell this chamber, and people around the province who are watching, a true story. It's a survivor story. It's a story about travel. It's a story about tragedy, adventure, international intrigue and survival — survival from being bush-wise, knowing a little bit about first aid, the desire to live and the importance of communications in our daily lives.

This is a story about a young man named Clay Lancaster, whose family lives in Smithers. He lives in the Chetwynd area and is a guide-outfitter. He left Canada on February 24 and arrived in Moscow on February 25. They left Moscow the following day and travelled to Kyrgyzstan to do some hunting.

They travelled in old army vehicles with 22 others. The intent was to go hunting, and they did that. They hunted for 12 days. Following the 12 days, it was expected that they would drive out. However, Mother Nature took over, and it had snowed so heavily that they were unable to get out of the hunting camp. They were snowbound for two and a half days before he finally called his father on a satellite phone from Kyrgyzstan.

He called his father in Smithers and said: "We've been snowbound for two and a half days. Can you do something to help us?" His father, after he got the GPS coordinates from his son in Russia, made arrangements for a helicopter, which arrived on day three after they had been snowbound.

The camp they were at was at an 11,000-foot elevation above sea level. The helicopter arrived with seven people on board. They picked up 17 more people from this hunting camp, so now there are 24 people on this helicopter, along with all the gear and the fuel required to fly this helicopter. The machine took off with 24 people on board.

Because of the elevation the helicopter flew for about five minutes and just fell back to earth, killing two people and severely injuring seven other people. Broken bones, bruises and other blunt-force traumas were some of the injuries they had to deal with. The pilot of the helicopter was killed. Clay received a broken or bruised sternum, bruises, a broken nose and a chip in his wrist, and he had extensive damage to his right eye.

He and several others who were not too badly damaged administered first aid and spent the first night at the crash site trying to keep warm and looking after the injured people. It was extremely cold, with blizzards.

Once again, the technology came into play. He called his brother in Smithers and said, "The helicopter

has crashed," and gave him the coordinates of where the helicopter had crashed. Once again, the motion was put in play to try to help these people off the mountain.

After spending a night on the mountain, Clay and another young man who had not been injured too badly decided, in concert with the co-pilot who survived the crash…. The pilot was killed. The co-pilot gave them some coordinates so they could walk out and get some help at a border checkpoint.

They left and started walking down the mountain. On their way down they encountered three snowmobiles that were traversing the mountain. To get their attention, they fired shots so that the shots hit the snow and found the snowmobilers. They finally got together. The three people on the snowmobile were instructed to proceed to the crash site, where they administered first aid. They were Americans actually out looking for these people because of the phone call that had been made the night before.

They continued to walk down to the checkpoint, and they got to the checkpoint. When they got to the checkpoint, things still got worse. They had a language problem. His satellite phone had gone dead, and he plugged in his satellite phone to recharge the batteries. While he was in there and because he was in a foreign country, he had to produce his passport, his wallet and his money. Everything was left inside, and he went outside to make a phone call to once again let his family know he was okay. After he had made the phone call, he came back inside, and you know what happened? His passport, his wallet and his money were stolen from this little border checkpoint. He eventually did get it back, and then he was able to contact his family once again.

Later on that day, after the other injured parties had been brought down from the mountain, they travelled by vehicle to a place called Naryn. They were checked over at a hospital, and they were there until 9 o'clock the following morning.

They left Naryn that morning with some U.S. embassy people and stopped to eat. They had not eaten for a couple of days, so they decided to stop to eat. In stopping to eat, I suspect it probably saved their lives, because shortly after they got back on the road and continued down the road, an avalanche had come down and covered the road and backed up a river that was flowing through that canyon. So they had to return to Naryn.

The avalanche created a huge lake and blocked the river. Some people tried to walk around the avalanche to get to the other side so they could get out of Naryn. However, one person fell in and drowned, so the authorities stopped anybody else from trying to walk around. So they were now stuck in Naryn.

There was an airport at Naryn, and they tried to clear the runway so they could get an aircraft in to help them out, and they hired people with shovels to try to clean the runway. These people shovelled for two days, and they also used some old equipment to try to clear the runway, which would allow them air access out of Naryn. However, this also did not work.

Two days later the river broke through the avalanche that had come down and made them captive at Naryn, and vehicles were being pulled through the road that had been blocked. They gave up on trying to fly out of Naryn and eventually travelled by road from Naryn, where they again received medical attention.

At this moment, and noticing the time allotted to me, I would like to yield the floor to the member for East Kootenay for his comments.

B. Bennett: I thank the member for Bulkley Valley–Stikine for asking me to respond. I think he asked me to do that partly because he knows I have some personal experience with these kinds of stories — nothing quite as dramatic as this particular story, although I've gone through the ice a couple of times with snowmobiles and had a few other interesting experiences in my 21 years in northern Canada before settling down.

I was also associated, in my past life, with the tourism industry and with the guide-outfitting industry, and these fellows who were over there — and were the heroes, really, of this story — were guide-outfitters from British Columbia. In fact, the Lancaster family is located in my riding of East Kootenay. It's another reason why I'm very interested in this story.

The guide-outfitters in B.C., as illustrated by my friend from Bulkley Valley–Stikine, are a tough lot. They're a very innovative bunch because they have lived most of their lives in the back country of this province, in the mountains, and have had to make do lots of times with insufficient technology and insufficient resources to get by. If this sort of a challenging tale was going to be told about anyone, some guide-outfitters from British Columbia were probably some of the very few people in the world who could have survived such an ordeal.

I wanted to use my time this morning to talk just a little bit about the guide-outfitters in British Columbia. I only have a couple of minutes, but there is some important information that I would like to share here in the House this morning. There are 233 guide-outfitters in British Columbia. That was as of 2002. They generate direct, indirect and other revenues of $116 million a year — that was, again, in 2002 — so it's a substantial industry. It's important to our economy here in British Columbia. The guide-outfitters in B.C. pay $19.5 million in tax revenues, which includes almost $10 million to the provincial government, so we're happy to have their activity.

One of the important parts of the industry and the contributions they make to B.C. is that the revenues they bring in through their industry are new moneys. It is, in a sense, an export business because all the dollars that are spent here are spent by people from outside of British Columbia. Interestingly, this $116 million that is generated by the guide-outfitting industry in B.C. is generated by only 878 full-time-equivalent employees, so it's a high-end business.

There are many other ways that the industry benefits B.C., such as the investments made in travel to and from the various camps across, up and down the province. There is local employment, particularly at times of

the year when we need local employment in our communities — in those shoulder seasons in the fall and then again in the spring. One of the things that I am particularly proud of, and I think the guides are proud of, is that amongst the 233 guide-outfitters in B.C., they donate over $1 million a year to conservation projects in the province, which I think is quite noteworthy.

Guides are the government's ears and eyes in the back country. They're the people that are out there. They will tell the wildlife biologists what's happening with a particular species. They'll report fires before other people. They all have these satellite telephones now. They're a very valuable resource for the government to have in terms of information in a part of the province where government employees, frankly, don't have the time or the resources to go. That information comes to us as government, at no cost to government, so they're a valuable bunch.

In closing, I just want to say that I've known a lot of guide-outfitters across the country in my lifetime, a lot of fishing guides and hunting guides and people that have spent most of their lives in the back country. I've known a lot of trappers and a lot of lodge operators, and they are some of the toughest, most courageous and innovative people that you'll ever meet. They're completely optimistic. They get up every morning knowing they're going to have a bunch of problems they're going to have to resolve.

I can just imagine that when these young men were over in Asia and ran into all of these trials and tribulations, the experience they had growing up in the back country of B.C. and doing business in the mountains of B.C. was what helped them survive.

D. MacKay: I'd like to thank the member for East Kootenay for his obvious knowledge and insight into the guide-outfitters and the toughness of this type of people growing up in the bush. Before I elaborate on that, I would just like to finish the story. When I left and turned the floor over to the member for East Kootenay, I indicated that they had left Naryn and were now being pulled through the roadblock that had been created by the avalanche. They did leave Naryn and travelled by road to Bishkek, where they were flown by a medical American jet to China where they received further treatment. From there, Clay travelled on to Hong Kong and flew back to Vancouver.

Just touching on, once again, what the member for East Kootenay said, the guide-outfitters in British Columbia are in fact a hardy group of individuals. They're bush-wise, and I suspect that the bush tricks that he had learned growing up and as a young man — and continues to use today — are probably one of the major factors that helped him survive on that mountaintop. The fact that they're trained in first aid and survival is another good example of the hardy nature of these individuals, and the fact that they were able to provide first-aid treatment to those others who were injured on the mountain speaks very highly of the skills that these people have.

I have to say that being a parent myself, I can just imagine the anxiety that the Lancaster family must have been going through in Canada as they received those two phone calls — the first one saying that they were snowbound and could you come and help us, and the second one, after they received the call, to say that the helicopter that had picked them up had now crashed in the mountains and two people had been killed. The anxiety of the Lancaster family in Smithers waiting for further word from their son must have been pretty tremendous.

Due to the fact that this is a true story and it happened about six weeks ago, I felt compelled to relay that story just to touch on what a great job the guide-outfitters in the province do and what a hardy bunch they are. I'm glad to report that he's home, he's safe, and he is recovering from his injuries. I understand from talking to him last week that his eyesight is in fact returning — slowly, but it is returning.

I would like to thank you, Mr. Speaker, for this opportunity to relay this story of a survivor — a true story.

P. Sahota: For the last few months the issue of community safety and crime has been at the forefront in my constituency. I have met with many residents who are concerned, and they're looking to all levels of government — be they local, provincial or federal — to combat this very serious problem.

Last week I also met with the Community Policing Advisory Committee, who are again frustrated. It seems to be related, a lot of it, to the drug problem which generates break and enters. I'm also told by the local police that prostitution is generated by drugs in the Burnaby-Edmonds area. Other issues that were brought up were leniency, sentencing and the marijuana grow-op issue. Be it stealing cars, home invasions, break and enters or drug dealing, all this makes some of the residents of Burnaby-Edmonds feel very concerned for their safety. I would say there aren't too many issues that provoke emotional personal reactions like crime and safety in my community, especially in the Kingsway-Edmonds corridor and parts of the South Slope area in Edmonds.

Last week the Solicitor General met with some of these residents and was able to hear firsthand some of these issues that provoke such strong personal reactions. The Solicitor General heard how crackdowns on the sex trade in Surrey, Vancouver and New West are having an impact on my area and on the city of Burnaby, the end result being that it gets pushed or driven into the Burnaby-Edmonds area.

I would say there are more and more people out there who feel unsafe when it comes to their neighbourhoods, and their faith in the system has been shaken. I know we as a government are trying to restore that faith, that accountability that we are all looking to. Along with the residents, the police and all of

us…. I know the police can't tackle these issues alone. I also want to point out that the city of Burnaby understands this, and they, too, are working with the local police along with all of us and the public and are trying to make a difference in Burnaby-Edmonds.

At the provincial level, I am also pleased to report that we are trying to provide the police with the tools they need to make our communities safer. The provincial response has been on different fronts. The government is in the process of equipping B.C.'s police services with a powerful crime-fighting tool called PRIME. PRIME provides police in every community instant access to information about suspects and criminal investigations in real time. When I met with the Community Policing Advisory Committee last week along with the RCMP liaison officer in our area…. I know they are very happy that this tool is now available for the police force in Burnaby.

Then there is the highly successful bait car program, which was launched last month, I believe, in Surrey by the Solicitor General and which is also coming to Burnaby. I'm happy to report that the superintendent in Burnaby is also very much looking forward to having this program implemented in Edmonds. Programs like this can do the work of many police officers, and because the cars are electronically disabled with the thieves locked inside, it eliminates the chance of dangerous street pursuits.

We know that auto crime is increasing all across B.C., so ICBC has partnered with several private businesses to fund a six-month trial of a new dedicated bike patrol program to help fight auto crime in Burnaby and Coquitlam.

I'm also happy to note we are working on legislation that will allow us to tackle another pair of serious problems like organized crime, as the member for Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows spoke about earlier today, and the marijuana grow-op industry. The new proceeds-of-crime legislation would give police the ability to seize homes linked to criminal activities. I also want to let the Legislature know that the southeast community policing advisory committee has recommended that when homes are seized, they would like to have some of the resulting funds from situations like this reinvested in police and crime prevention initiatives. We will be asking the Solicitor General to look at this possibility.

We're also introducing a provincewide AMBER alert system to raise public awareness when a child is believed to have been abducted or endangered. This program has been enormously successful in the U.S., resulting in the safe recovery of over 30 children from suspected abductors.

Having said all this and knowing what our provincial response has been and that we are working on many different approaches and hearing from the residents on a continuous basis, I feel that they're still looking for more — more from us, more from the local level, more from the federal government. I am looking forward to hearing the response from the Solicitor General and to hearing from him what other initiatives the ministry is working on.

Hon. R. Coleman: Thanks to the member for giving me the opportunity to meet with a number of community groups in her community last week. As I look back on this and I was actually preparing some notes for this morning, one thing occurred to me. We have done more in two and a half years for law enforcement in British Columbia than the socialists did in ten. They didn't care about policing. They didn't care about public safety. They didn't give any of the tools to law enforcement that were needed for them to build a strong infrastructure for policing.

When I actually had the opportunity over the last week to be in a number of communities to talk to law enforcement, victims groups, police officers on the street and groups in communities that had concerns about crime, one thing became pretty clear to me. It is that the things we have done have started to change dramatically the focus of policing in British Columbia. When I was up in Vernon the day before yesterday with the victims assistance group and sitting down with the officer in charge up there, it was pretty clear that integration and the relationship of actually moving your personnel over across borders to make sure that policing and crime fighting can be improved is something they're very, very high on. When I met with police officers in Burnaby, they told me that PRIME is one of the greatest tools they've seen, and it's early stages for them. They're just getting it now.

I look at all the things we've done and what we continue to do. The member mentioned that we're going to do things with regards to proceeds-of-crime legislation later this year — how we're going to give additional tools in and around liquor tickets to law enforcement. But let's look at the rest of it. We've taken outdated infrastructures of management and policing, and we've restructured them. We've regionalized policing and put together an integrated homicide unit, for instance, in the lower mainland, which has one of the best solve rates of any homicide unit of its kind in North America. We actually are taking down barriers as far as trying to deal with organized crime. We put together a new organized crime unit that's putting an additional $4 million into fighting organized crime in British Columbia next year.

We're tackling auto theft with the bait car program, a program we've actually gone global with across the lower mainland so we can take down the borders with regards to that type of crime. We're looking at a safe streets act so we can deal with that. In street racing we went right after it and seized the vehicles at the side of the road and gave suspensions to those people who want to put lives at risk with regards to street racing. We went after the graduated licence program so we could actually put some disciplines in place so people would have no tolerance for alcohol for the first two years of a novice stage in a driver's licence, and they'd have to actually learn to drive before they would get their driver's licence and have some personal responsibility to other people on the road.

All of these things we've done are issues that we've looked at on behalf of law enforcement in communities

because we actually, as a government, have a level of communication with law enforcement that didn't exist under the socialists. The socialists' only attitude was: "We don't like you. We don't want to talk to you. We don't want to work with you. We don't want to build an infrastructure for policing." They're a group of people that didn't care about communities, and we do.

We believe that the front line in communities to stop crime is law enforcement, community policing — the better issues in and around crime prevention. We're doing that in British Columbia when the other guys didn't, and we're doing it in cooperation with the very people that know how it works.

I am really proud, after last week — spending a few minutes with a number of police officers in different communities across the province — to know that the relationship, the message, the direction and the future of policing in their mind have changed dramatically in two and a half years. They tell me it's never been better. They tell me they see the future is bright. They also tell me that they believe for the first time in years that governments, in British Columbia in particular, actually stand behind policing as they try and build an infrastructure to fight crime in the province.

P. Sahota: I want to thank the Solicitor General for his very passionate comments this morning. He is right. When I speak to the local police officers in my area — I met with the superintendent last week — they do tell me that it's working and that the tools we have given them are working. I'm very proud to say that we have been part of that as our government is moving to make sure the police do have the tools they need to do their job.

I also want to say that the residents, the constituents, can also do more too. When it comes to Block Watch programs, they can get involved. I know many communities in many parts of my riding do not have Block Watch programs, and I'm encouraging the constituents or residents in those areas to make sure that they do get involved and create those kinds of programs.

On that note, I'm also pleased to let the House know that on May 8 in my area, from 10 a.m. to noon, the Edmonds Town Centre and the local RCMP are going to have Operation Brush-Off, which means cleaning up the community, removing graffiti, picking up garbage in the area and generally making sure that people get to know each other — know your neighbours. I think that's very important — to get involved. I'm going to encourage everyone in my area to make sure that they do get involved and get to know their neighbours.

V. Roddick: Dikes and ditches are a vital part of the agricultural drainage and irrigation system. They safeguard from flooding some of the province's most productive and valuable agricultural and commercial land, as well as significant urban areas. The dikes and ditches were built by farmers to protect farmland and urban areas that lie below sea level. In the lower Fraser Valley region alone this includes parts of Delta, Surrey, Richmond, Coquitlam, Langley, Abbotsford, Mission, Chilliwack and Hope. Think about it — hundreds of thousands of people and their livelihood are affected.

According to the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection, there are 360 flood protection dikes in B.C., which total approximately 1,100 kilometres in length, and which protect about 395,000 acres of land and over 100,000 buildings in 58 municipalities and 11 regional districts. The dikes and ditches are monitored by four levels of government: federal, provincial, municipal, first nations. Historically, these governments recognized the benefits of what the early farm pioneers were doing, launched a major diking scheme, and worked in concert to ensure that the dikes and ditches were maintained and kept in perfect operating order.

Each year on a rotational basis the ditches, dikes and the Fraser River were cleaned of silt and gravel, maintaining their holding capacity to protect flow rates. The work was programmed on a ten-year schedule and implemented by local engineering departments and authorities. Unfortunately, times have changed and, with them, the vision and original intention of these waterways. In the last ten to 15 years this schedule has ceased to exist largely due to environmental priorities placed on man-made ditches. Maintenance today requires special permission from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. This lack of ditch maintenance and river dredging is dangerous and potentially disastrous for both the farming and the urban communities because it will ultimately cause flooding that could lead to billions of dollars of damage.

We do not want a repeat of the Fraser River flood of 1948, which cut off Vancouver's prime source of transportation in those days — rail access — for three complete weeks, forced the evacuation of thousands of people and saw thousands of acres of land flooded. As a result, in 1968 the Fraser River flood control program began. The B.C. Environmental Network has determined that since the flood-control diking program began, hundreds of thousands of people have settled on the floodplain and billions of dollars worth of roads, homes, farms, factories and businesses have all been built on the land protected by dikes. BCEN goes on to stress that railroad lines, highways, telephone lines, pipelines and power lines could all be severed as they were in '48.

A great number of jobs in B.C. — over 60,000 — and thousands more across Canada depend directly on exports which pass through the port of Vancouver and could be jeopardized if exports were cut off by a major flood. Thousands more could be prevented from getting to work. The economic impact on our province would be catastrophic.

After the great flood of the Red River in 1950, Winnipeg city engineers determined that a ditch could be

dug around to prevent the city from further catastrophes. In 1962 construction of Duff's Ditch, or the greater Winnipeg floodway, was begun. In 1969 Duff's Ditch was put to the test when the Red River overflowed as it had in 1950. This time Winnipeg stayed dry, and it has stayed dry countless times since then. It is estimated that the floodway has saved billions of dollars in flood damage.

We already have a working system here that requires a very little cost in comparison to the construction of Duff's Ditch. However, the drainage system itself will soon require a major and expensive overhaul if the status quo is allowed to continue. We must return to organized and regular ditch and river maintenance programs. We cannot operate under the current restrictions. Diked areas must be considered as a special zone when regulations are developed. Any watercourse involved in an above–sea level water source would be one division. Watercourses below sea level or behind a diking system should be a distinct division.

Environmental concerns can be incorporated in any future programs, but farmers and local governments must be allowed to operate a healthy flowing ditch, diking and dredging system to protect agricultural lands and communities from flood damage. The federal, provincial and local governments must come up with a realistic, workable approach to the drainage problems that plague diked areas in British Columbia.

I look forward to the Minister of Agriculture's comments on this troubling issue.

Hon. J. van Dongen: I want to commend the member for Delta South for raising an issue that I think is too often taken for granted and is overlooked because there is not an immediate problem. The whole issue of flood protection should concern all of us, particularly the people in the floodplain areas. I think it is not a question of if but of when we will have another significant flood event. Certainly, the management decisions that have been made over the last ten to 15 years, as the member has said, clearly leave us in a position where we are ill-prepared to deal with this kind of flood event.

I want to cite a couple of personal experiences. My family farms in Delta. I grew up in Delta from 1963 onward, and I recall one occasion in the late sixties in the Mud Bay area when the Pacific Ocean was basically coming over the dike. At that time it was a private dike. We had a particularly high tide and a heavy wind, and the whole dike was white with water. It is a very sobering experience to see, over the course of five or six hours, the whole farming area fill up with water from the ocean coming over the dike. That's one experience I will certainly remember.

I want to point out, as the member has done, that there are very, very significant asset values — homes, businesses — behind these dikes. I think the notion some people in government have is that if there is a significant flood event, we can simply let the water flow and spread out, as they do with the Mississippi River, but I don't think it is a valid one in the lower mainland. We're simply not geared up for that. We have not, as various levels of government, maintained the infrastructure. We have not done the kind of capital spending on dikes that we should be doing. What little money has been spent has been on a very ad hoc and short-term basis without any sort of ongoing plan and without any sort of long-term planning to get good value for the money spent. It has been done on an emergency basis.

I cite, for example, the situation in 1997. I live along the Fraser River today and watched the river as it came up during that period of time. That particular runoff, I think, was 1997. We were actually in a situation where the river started to run quite late, but when it started, it continued to run at a very high level for a long period of time. It was awesome to see the amount of water coming down as long as it did, and the thought that the water could have come down quicker — with high temperatures all of a sudden and then rain following that, as what happened in 1948 — really drove home to me the point of the kind of dangerous game that we as senior governments, federal and provincial, are playing.

The member mentioned the Fraser River flood control program, which was discontinued sometime in the early 1990s. This was a federal-provincial locally funded program that was discontinued. The senior levels of government, both provincial and federal, need to revisit this program and put in place a program to help fund infrastructure on a routine basis. The local governments cannot carry that burden themselves. The member also talked about the need to return to an organized and ongoing maintenance program, and I couldn't agree more. Again, the only way we're going to mitigate risk is to maintain the infrastructure on an ongoing basis — do it economically, do it properly. There are issues that we are working on today as a government with the federal government, with the federal agencies, that have major impacts on flood potential. I'm talking about gravel removal from the Fraser River.

We haven't got into talking about silt removal on lower parts of the river. Again, previously, the federal government funded dredging to remove silt from the river, and this is the kind of thing that needs to be reinstated. This is a big issue. I think it is something that governments need to look at and reinstate some of the previous programs.

V. Roddick: Thank you for the minister's comments. I know that with his solid, dependable help, we will be able to make a difference with DFO. As we struggle to come to grips with the technological revolution, our world is becoming smaller and smaller. Borders, while still in existence, do not contain or restrain business as they did in the past. We truly do operate in a global economy, a global environment. A worldwide outlook or approach is absolutely required if we're going to have sustainability.

Canada was built by people who looked well beyond their borders. We have a proud history of people

of every stripe investing their all to make our country number one. Recently we've ignored our pioneer background. We have pitted province against province, sector against sector, government against government. It's time to mend the nets. Canadians have the same basic values and goals from one end of the country to the other.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans has the ability and resources to help our country, our province, regain its former glory. Work with our licensed biologists and engineers to draw up necessary plans. Engage urban, industrial and agricultural expertise. Work to develop sustainable drainage plans based on science, yes, but with a large dose of common sense.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to remind this House, just in case it slipped anybody's mind: we still have to eat to live.

Hon. members, the unanimous consent of the House is required to proceed with Motion 73 without disturbing the priorities of motions preceding it on the order paper.

Tomorrow, April 20, at approximately 8 a.m. the cruise ship Amsterdam will dock in Victoria Harbour at Ogden Point. This marks the first visit for the 2004 cruise ship season, and the Amsterdam itself brings along a potential of 1,380 passengers.

In fact, Victoria is headed for another record cruise ship season. Last year Victoria had 118 visits with approximately 185,978 passengers. This year the Greater Victoria Harbour Authority is forecasting 139 cruise ship visits with approximately 250,000 passengers.

Why is this important? According to the Greater Victoria Harbour Authority's 2003 annual report: "The cruise season has the potential to boost $50 million into the local Victoria economy, and with our numbers increasing, so will the injection of these funds into our community."

The cruise ship sector represents jobs for Victoria families and not just the ones we might expect in tourism. I have spoken in this House before about the dry dock we have here in the capital region. It's the largest dry dock on the west coast. In 2002 one major cruise ship was sent to that dock for a refit, which is over $1 million worth of work by our highly trained, highly skilled marine workers here in the dockyards. When Portland closed its facility, we went in 2003 to four major cruise ship refits, quadrupling the amount of work that these families could participate in with these highly skilled, highly paid jobs being involved. These are family-supporting jobs that are directly related to Victoria becoming a cruise ship centre. This is critical for our families here in the capital region. It's critical for our shipyards to continue to grow in this area. As B.C. looks to expand this sector and create a made-in-B.C. cruise industry, this means more jobs for working families in Victoria and coastal communities right up and down the west coast of British Columbia.

The cruise ship industry is not just the large ships that we have gotten used to seeing — the Love Boat and these types of things. There are many aspects to cruise ships that have great potential here in British Columbia. One of the things that this government is working on is a made-in-B.C. cruise industry — in other words, not relying on the cruise ship industry that goes up the coast to Alaska and back down, but actually recognizing that British Columbia has some of the greatest scenery in the world on its coast and that we, in fact, could develop a cruise industry that starts in British Columbia, visits only British Columbia and ends in British Columbia.

There are several opportunities in the pocket cruise industry to explore some of that. One example might be a cruise that a family takes from Port Hardy, goes up to Bella Bella, Bella Coola and all the way up to Prince Rupert. Then they can rent a car and drive down through Hazelton, through Prince George or all the way over to the Rockies and down through the Kootenays and back into Vancouver. They can do a great cruise on the west coast and then see some of our great landscapes in the interior of British Columbia. The potential is absolutely staggering.

Seeing that just to Victoria this is worth potentially $50 million this upcoming year, seeing that Victoria is a major tourist city and that tourism is our major growing industry here, I thought I might take a minute and go and look at the NDP website and see what their position is on cruise ships. Certainly, in Victoria we've heard from some individuals — researchers at UVic and others — who have suggested they're not big fans of the cruise ship industry, and that's fine. But I certainly thought the NDP would have a strong position on this growing sector in tourism.

Well, guess what. Just like health care, just like education, just like the economy, just like almost anything else, I saw not one reference as to where the NDP or Carole James stands on this important tourism sector. Given that the leader of the NDP wants to be the MLA for Victoria, I would think she would have a strong position either supporting or not supporting a major growth industry in tourism here and on whether or not the NDP supports working families in tourism, supports working families in our shipyards.

You know, one of the issues is that for many of our students who go to Camosun or Royal Roads or the University of Victoria, the summer tourism season provides that great employment in between their

classes to allow them to pay for their living costs and pay for their tuition. Certainly, supporting an industry that is growing and that has such a major impact I think is critical, and I hope every member in this House will support this motion. I especially look forward to hearing from the Leader of the Opposition, the member for Vancouver-Hastings. We don't hear from Carole James on this, but maybe the two NDP members in this House will rise and speak on this important motion.

Let me be very clear, as well, that our ability to create a made-in-B.C. industry, to create pocket cruises and to be able to build on this means great things for Victoria, Campbell River and Port Alberni as well as Vancouver. Then you get to Bella Bella and Bella Coola. You get up to Prince Rupert. It means jobs. It means jobs in the dockyards; it means jobs on the wharves. It means jobs for the tour operators who connect up with the cruise ship industries. It means jobs for the suppliers. It means jobs for the truckers who move the supplies to the ships. It means jobs for the airlines who connect people to various cruises. The spinoffs from a strong cruise sector are almost unimaginable, and we need to make sure we're supporting this industry and we're supporting this sector.

Now, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be strong environmental regulations. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be strong coordination in our dockyards to make sure that our businesses get the best advantage of cruise ship visitors. It means we want to tell the world that this is a great place to come and invest if you want to start a cruise industry. We want to tell the world that this is a great and exciting place for tourists to come and see the wild and by and large untamed coast of British Columbia. We want to make sure we create the kind of competitive environment that doesn't see Seattle continuing to grow at the expense of Vancouver. We want to see an industry that has sustainable growth over the long term to support working families right across British Columbia, either indirectly through supports to the industry or directly in the tourism industry and in the shipping industry.

I look forward to hearing from many members in this House. Tomorrow morning at 8 a.m. I am going be at Ogden Point to see the first ship of the 2004 cruise ship season dock here in Victoria, to welcome those passengers, to encourage the volunteers who meet and greet our tourists as they land in Victoria and to continue to work with this sector to ensure that we get full advantage for Victoria and Victoria working families.

M. Hunter: I want to thank the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill, first of all, for putting this motion, "Be it resolved that this House support the expansion and promotion of the B.C. cruise industry," on the order paper and, second, to congratulate him for his usual fine promotional skills for the city of Victoria.

I wanted to stand this morning to speak to this motion because it is an important opportunity, a chance to talk about how our tourism industry here in B.C. can be improved. The member for Victoria–Beacon Hill will be interested to know how its benefits can be spread. While this week does see the opening of the 2004 cruise season in Victoria, it also sees the opening of the cruise season in Nanaimo. We have been able in Nanaimo to attract some smaller pocket cruise vessels over the last few years. These are the kind of vessels which are providing domestic cruises through the waters of British Columbia, and their first pocket cruise of 2004 will be arriving in Nanaimo on Wednesday of this week. I know, like the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill, there will be lots of people on hand to meet and greet our newest visitors.

I think we all understand that the cruise industry is changing. While it is growing, it is changing in nature. There are more ships like the Queen Mary 2, and I believe Cunard has another one on the drawing boards that's even bigger. More importantly, there are more cruise options — more smaller ships, more ships catering to the kind of market we have here in British Columbia above and beyond the traditional, if you like, cruises to Alaska out of Vancouver and Victoria.

You know, here in British Columbia we have a coast which boasts what is amongst the world's best scenery. I know some people like to say it's the best. I think it is amongst the best, because I've been other places that are quite spectacular too.

We're in a competition. This is what tourism promotion is about. It's competing to get people to come and visit our communities and our coastline. Not only do we have attractive coastal waters, but they're safe. The environment from which these cruise ships leave Canadian ports is safe. I think they are three very important assets we have for the cruise industry here in British Columbia.

As I've said, as the cruise industry changes and matures, more opportunities exist outside of Vancouver, as Victoria itself has shown in the past few years. I can tell you, and I can tell the members of this House, that the port of Nanaimo does not intend to get left behind as cities like Prince Rupert strut their stuff.

Nanaimo Port Authority has plans to build significant new infrastructure that will allow cruise lines to add Nanaimo as a port of call, as the industry changes, as I said. I do expect that the government of Canada will cooperate with the port of Nanaimo, as it has done in Campbell River and Prince Rupert.

We are already able to handle medium-size vessels in Nanaimo. We have the onshore infrastructure. We have lots for people to see and do. It's going to take will. It's going to take some vision to improve those facilities and make sure that my community is able to participate in and help the growth of the industry and, indeed, help the industry grow.

Why are we doing this? One interesting statistic is that a 2,000-passenger cruise ship is estimated to deliver over $200,000 worth of expenditures by those passengers at the cash registers of every community that vessel visits per day. That's a significant influx of new dollars into a community like mine and, indeed, even into Victoria. We need to work together in this province — the various ports that are competing — so that

We can foresee continued growth in Alaska cruises. We know that citizens of the United States are tending to stay home, and Canada, with its safe environment, is considered a bit of a foreign venture but not too far away. We do have that great Inside Passage protected-waters cruise to Alaska. That means opportunities for my community in Nanaimo, as well as a prime choice for the required Canadian port of call.

We are an active participant, in my community, in the Cruise B.C. initiative. We are an active participant, through the port authority, in trying to help the entire cruise ship sector in British Columbia grow, to promote the Inside Passage as a premier cruise destination around the world and to develop and grow our domestic cruise industry, which may not even go outside Canadian waters.

I will say this: whichever port this year's ships visit, I think all of us in this House want to make sure we all — all British Columbians — give every ship that visits a warm B.C. welcome in 2004.

S. Orr: I also want to thank the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill for putting this motion forward — such an apt motion and such a well-thought-out motion, especially for our region.

I was in the travel industry for many, many years — maybe too many. One thing I did a lot of was send people on cruises. Cruises are amazing things. They have grown over the years. You've seen the size of the cruise ships; you've seen the size of the business.

When people go on cruises, they go because it's safe. Given the state of safety today and the way things are happening in the world, cruises are just getting bigger and bigger. Cruise ships are getting bigger. More and more people want to cruise because when they go, they feel secure and they feel safe.

The fact that we're getting more and more cruise ships into Victoria is just music to my ears. What happens is that a cruise ship will come into port — and I'm just telling you this from my experience in the business for years — and that's what they've been looking forward to. They've been looking forward to arriving. They land, most people leave the cruise ship — I would say 80 percent of the passengers leave the cruise ship — and go into the local towns or go sightseeing.

For Victoria this is absolutely wonderful, because we have everything to offer. We are a tourist mecca. People will come here, and they will spend their money, which we like even more. The other thing about cruising, though, that is important to the rest of the province is the land tours, the prepackaged land tours, prior to a cruise. Somebody will come and spend two or three days travelling our province before they actually get on the cruise ship, or they will do that once they depart the cruise ship. So although it is wonderful for our cities, there is also a lot of spinoff that happens for the rest of the province.

The other thing that really works in cruises is…. There are destination cruises, but there are also specialty cruises. You will get a cruise ship that will house, say, doctors. They're going on a doctors medical cruise. What happens is that they will come to Victoria, they will get off the cruise ship, they will walk around Victoria, and they will say: "Wow. Not only do we want to come back for another vacation, but maybe this is where we should live." So take the different types of cruise ships…. You get businesses and large corporations that will take over a whole cruise ship. Imagine a large corporation getting off a boat in Victoria — these are all business people — and walking through our city. I bet the spinoff from the business side of it is phenomenal. We don't have the numbers, but I think it would be absolutely incredible.

Eight hundred thousand passengers cruise through British Columbia in the season — 800,000. Think about that. That's less than a quarter of our population — all of those people flowing through our cities. It's absolutely amazing, and the fact that we're getting more cruises into Victoria is just the best thing. Not only do we have a lot to offer, but it really does offer a tremendous amount to our community and our tourism.

I just wanted to totally support my colleague and say that this motion is very well presented. I support it fully. I certainly know our community and our tourism industry are thrilled with what's happening in the cruise industry. They have our support, they have my support, and so does the member.

K. Whittred: It is my pleasure, as well as my colleague's, to join in supporting this motion this morning of expanding the cruise industry in B.C. I think the points have been made very well that we want to establish British Columbia and British Columbia's communities not only as a stopping point for cruises but also, certainly, as a destination. We want to ensure that our products are featured. We want to be sure that we showcase our province and attractions in all parts of our great province.

I have risen in this House many times and spoken of how my riding of North Vancouver–Lonsdale is like a window on the province. I can sit at the foot of Lonsdale and watch a panorama of activity. I can watch the lumber ships come in carrying lumber to Lynnterm; I can watch the coal coming to Neptune Terminals; I can watch the tug boats, at least on most occasions; and I can, of course, watch the cruise ships across the water going into Vancouver harbour.

But North Vancouver wants to be more than just a viewer of this activity; we want to be a participant. We want to ensure that as part of this great industry of cruises, visitors have the means and the businesses are there to encourage visitors to come across the water and enjoy the features in North Van. We, of course, have many wonderful features — the Lonsdale Quay, Capilano Suspension Bridge, Lynn Canyon. Part of this whole cruise industry is not just about having places for cruise ships to dock; it's about looking at the indus-

try in its broadest perspective and looking at the number of spinoff jobs that it can create.

One of the very exciting things that's happening in my community is the building of a dock at the foot of Lonsdale. This will enable small cruises. I am not so sure that these even fall into the category of what is called a pocket cruise. They might be more of an inside pocket cruise. They are cruises that basically go around Vancouver harbour. Perhaps they go a little bit up Howe Sound, perhaps into the area of the Fraser River, but they are more day cruises. Many of them tend to be focused on particular activities. One, of course, that is very famous is the carol cruise at Christmastime. Carol ships cruise the harbour, and choirs are on board. That is one of the long-lasting features that makes me think of the harbour.

How does this relate to the larger cruise industry? Well, of course it relates, because we want to be sure that the infrastructure is there so that the people who are coming into Vancouver as a destination cruise are offered these as shore excursions and as side trips. I can think of nothing more enticing than to be offered a small cruise up Indian Arm, for example. At the head of Indian Arm there is a very attractive lodge. In fact, I had the pleasure one time of staying there — Wigwam Inn, I believe it's called. It's a very attractive feature that I'm sure many visitors would enjoy.

The kind of thing I'm thinking of here perhaps equates to some of the cruises I have read about that take place on rivers, such as the Mississippi River cruises. It was my pleasure a few months ago to be in Mississippi, actually, and to witness some of these. Some of them aren't big, elaborate cruises that we think of, such as cruise the Caribbean or to Alaska, but they do attract a lot of tourists and are very much a part of the industry.

Speaking to the larger concept of pocket cruises, we in North Vancouver are looking, as I've spoken of before, at a very exciting marine development at the foot of Lonsdale. This is a very intense urban development that will include apartments and homes and shops. It will also include a maritime museum. We know that the whole history of North Vancouver is built around the water and around the marine industry. This will hopefully be a destination and a dock for some of the pocket cruises that we know are going to come out of the Cruise B.C. initiative. I look forward to the day when a pocket cruise docks at the foot of Lonsdale, where the guests get off and tour our new marine museum and have a look at the rich history of shipbuilding in my community and perhaps take a walk up Waterfront Park and then perhaps get on a tourist train to go to Whistler.

This is another exciting concept that could be built into this proposal. One of the suggestions that has come out of the conversation around what to do with the B.C. Rail station is to build a station on the south side of the current B.C. Rail head office building which would act as a hub, making lower Lonsdale into a real tourist hub. We would have, when this is all completed, not only a dock for pocket cruises but a hub for the tourist train which would then move on up Howe Sound to Whistler or beyond.

This has amazing tourist potential. We know from looking at the larger cruises that many cruise companies and tourist organizations like to plan trips that are sort of round-trip or circular in nature. Many people, for example, cruise to Alaska, and then they drive back, take a train back or take a coach back. We want to incorporate that possibility into our pocket cruise industry.

That is where I think the north side of Burrard Inlet can play a very major role. I think the large cruise ships will probably continue to dock at Canada Place. I do, however, think there is amazing potential along the North Vancouver waterfront for accommodating the pocket cruise industry and the inner harbour cruise industry. I hope the companies out there and the people that are looking at the cruise industry take a very, very close look at the proposals that have come forward around the possibility of a train station adjacent to Waterfront Park in North Vancouver, which would enable this kind of round-trip activity to take place.

I will conclude, Mr. Speaker, by thanking my colleague the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill for bringing forward this motion. It's been my pleasure to support it.

V. Roddick: I, too, rise today in support of Motion 73. The expansion and promotion of the B.C. cruise industry benefits virtually every single aspect of our provincial economy. This is what our communities and our families need — economic growth and extra cash to help them with their harried lives of today.

Our coastal communities are not the only ones who benefit. It is our inland areas as well, because we still have to eat to live. As a result, it's not surprising that one of our basic natural resources contributes substantially to the supply chain of the cruise industry: agriculture. A thriving fresh herb business in Cloverdale quadrupled over the past few years and won a business entrepreneur of the year award. The B.C. supplies from the Vegetable Marketing Commission in Delta are particularly coveted, along with the superb chicken and pork from the Fraser Valley. More recently, my colleague from Chilliwack-Kent is presently front and centre organizing B.C. VQA wines to be available on cruise ships plying our waters. Opportunities abound, and every successful opportunity contributes to new jobs and the rebuilding of our community and their families.

I remark upon my colleague from North Vancouver–Lonsdale and her inside pocket cruises. Ladner has been a perfect spot for exactly that. With some of the issues with curtailed fishing licences and fishing times plus a downturn in the actual stocks, a lot of our local fishermen have turned to these inside pocket cruises and take all sorts of tourists out to sometimes catch and release but mostly to cruise around the Gulf Islands and just see in general from the water what an incredible lower mainland and province we've got. We must

nurture, encourage and enhance their growth and thereby the growth and development of our incredible province.

G. Trumper: I'm pleased to rise to support this very important motion, particularly for the area that I come from. The Alberni Valley, which is on the west coast of Vancouver Island and has a deep-sea port, last year was the host to one of the newest megaships that was touring, cruising up and down the coast of British Columbia and actually, because we have a deep-sea port, was able to dock beside the facilities we have.

A group of people went down to Miami to be part of the west coast pavilion and were part of the advertising that took place for British Columbia for cruise ships.

Now, many people in this House this morning have talked about the pocket cruises. We are on the west coast, and certainly we are not likely to get the Inside Passage cruise ships that go up and down, but we have the ability to host those mega-sized cruise ships that are now being built, which are available now. Also, they are modern. They have tremendous facilities for making sure that they are not polluting the ocean as they travel. We in the valley see it as a great opportunity as we diversify our economy, as times change.

But we all do need, as communities on the west coast of British Columbia, to work together. With the port authority, we in the Alberni Valley need to work with Nanaimo, which is now developing a cruise ship vision. We need to make sure we have the ability to serve these huge ships that are coming in and that have a huge number of passengers — to provide them with first-class facilities, whether it be a fishing trip that they've come for or whether they want to take part in ecotourism.

These people on these ships spend money. It is a huge amount of money that comes into the communities. Obviously, we have developed our waterfront. We now have a maritime museum; we have a market there. We have developed a large amount of the waterfront on the harbour side of the Alberni Valley. We also have a heritage site, a national heritage site, which is the McLean Mill.

Last year when we hosted these very many people off the ships, we had many, many volunteers who came forward to help — to make sure that they were able to participate and see the valley at its best. But you know, you cannot always rely on volunteers all the time. We have to make sure that the business community buys into this and that they have a vision of where we're going with cruise ships.

Also, I might add that within my riding, which is Alberni-Qualicum, the opportunity for cruise ships to take part in the environment in Nanaimo will also have a benefit for the east side of the Island. I have many golf courses in my riding on the east side of Vancouver Island. They will be able to benefit from cruise ships going into Nanaimo — the cruise ships that are coming into port. It is not very far for them to travel to be able to see some of the beauty that we have on Vancouver Island.

I am excited about it, and I know the group in the Alberni Valley that has been working hard on this vision they have for cruise ships coming in knows the benefits it will have. It has to be well planned, as so many people have said. We have to make sure that we are open for them, that we will be welcoming them, that our communities will be great hosts to them and that at the same time it will be a benefit to our economy.

I am looking forward as the cruise ship industry expands. I know, as we are able to deal with the very large ships that are now being built and coming into the valley — coming up the inlet and able to cope with the weather on the west coast of Vancouver Island — that we can see great opportunities. I am very pleased to be able to support this motion put forward by the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill.

B. Belsey: It is indeed a pleasure to rise in the House today to speak in support of the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill and Motion 73, because cruise ship traffic — the cruise ship industry — is something that is not unique but supports communities all up and down the coast of British Columbia.

When I moved to the north coast and to my riding and the community I live in — Prince Rupert — it was about 25 years ago, and there were a large number of cruise ships we used to see in the harbour at that time. The Love Boat was one that used to come in and out of that harbour on a weekly basis. That started to drop off over time. Through the nineties we saw a real decrease in cruise ship traffic, but this government has a strong support for the cruise ship industry. We have seen the turnaround in that industry and building of new facilities in the Prince Rupert area.

Today we as a province have committed to assist with the funding to put a brand-new cruise ship dock into Prince Rupert. At 340 metres long, that dock will be able to handle vessels up to 300 metres long and 100,000 tonnes. We anticipate May 2 will be the visit of the first cruise ship vessel into the Prince Rupert harbour.

Over the course of this summer, and this summer alone, we will see somewhere between 60,000 and 65,000 passengers and crew come into Prince Rupert and take part in the many festivities and the many community museums we can provide of interest to cruise ship passengers. We have scheduled into Prince Rupert this year 36 visits from cruise ships large and small. This is a huge advantage to a community. It's a shift from some of the forestry issues that we've been struggling with — and now into tourism, which is going to provide great opportunity for the people of Prince Rupert and some of the industries.

You know, the indirect effects of a cruise ship industry are tremendous. When you take a look at the advertising that is done around the world by the cruise ship industry, that is a huge benefit to some of the tour-

ist sites that we have in our community. The North Pacific cannery is an old cannery that has been totally rebuilt and has become a huge attraction for tourism. Now, with 60,000 to 70,000 visitors coming to our communities, they are going to get an opportunity to visit that cannery.

What that does — the increase in the traffic through the cannery — is provide them with funding for expansion, with the ability to build, to refurbish and rebuild some of the buildings, some of the docks and some of the boats that they have. Visitors will be given the opportunity to go grizzly bear viewing. Prince Rupert museum…. They'll be given opportunities to go fishing. The capital to expand some of the services provided will only come once we are able to bring more tourists to our communities. The province realizes how important it is to expand the tourism industry.

Another thing that tourism does is increase the independent tourist traffic. They are visitors that may have come into Prince Rupert by ship and only been able to spend six or maybe ten or 12 hours in the community, and that ship leaves. You know, they go home, and next year when they're planning their vacation, they say: "That was a great time we had in that community. We'd like to go back." They pile into their mobile home, their RV, and head back into this area and spend additional time. These are indirect benefits to communities and a great opportunity for that region of the province.

But it's not just about the big 2,000-passenger cruise ships. There are a lot of smaller cruise ships that are going to be able to visit our region and tie up to the new docking facilities. These smaller cruise ships are very unique in that they require kind of different facilities than the bigger ones. I mean, it's a huge boost to the airport in Prince Rupert, because these small pocket cruisers tend to change crews and change passengers. Instead of 2,000 people coming in, in one of the larger vessels and spending their four, six, eight, ten or 12 hours or whatever the case may be, we have the smaller pocket cruise ships that come in. They may actually fly in 20 or 30 passengers, and they may fly in five, ten, 15 or 20 of their crew, so it's a benefit to the airport.

It is a benefit in that these smaller ships are able to go to smaller communities with the smaller facilities. That means you can have a community like Kitkatla or Hartley Bay or Masset on the Queen Charlotte Islands, Haida Gwaii, that can attract these smaller cruise ships. The smaller cruise ships have a greater ability to show off some of the arts and crafts that can be produced.

If you were living in Bella Bella and could not dock a 2,000-passenger, 100,000-tonne cruise ship, you could attract the smaller cruise lines and be able to display the arts and crafts in your area. I know they are able to paddle a war canoe when they visit the community of Bella Bella. There are tours, so the passengers can get off that vessel and go get in a war canoe, and they'll take them around the harbour and some of the outlying areas. There are greater opportunities to do whale watching, and some of them even provide diving charters.

So convinced is this government of the benefits of cruise ships and the benefits to small business and economic development that they have committed to other tourism-type projects that will attract and will be there to display to the passengers. It is very important for these passengers, when they come into an area, that there are facilities for them to enjoy, facilities for them possibly to eat at — whether it is a restaurant or whether it is maybe going out and pulling crab traps in the harbour in Prince Rupert.

I am very pleased at the chance to stand and support this motion. I'm a firm believer that cruise ships on our coast are a huge benefit, especially in the northern part of this province that I represent. We have the sheltered, well-protected waters as you come up the Inside Passage, and you can enjoy the viewscapes — we have many mountains that are just covered with trees — and enjoy the waterfalls, the fjords, and watch the whales going by. There are certain parts of this coast where there is a really good opportunity, a good chance you might witness or see one of the Kermode bears that inhabit our coast.

It is a golden opportunity. It's an opportunity that people around the world are taking advantage of, and I think this motion speaks well to something that all coastal British Columbia supports. I congratulate the member for Victoria–Beacon Hill in bringing this motion forward, and I thank you for the opportunity to stand and support it.

Deputy Speaker: Hon. members, pursuant to the practice of this House of not calling division during private members' times, the division call will occur half an hour before adjournment today.

Deputy Speaker: Hon. members, unanimous consent of the House is required to proceed with Motion 46 without disturbing the priorities of motions preceding it on the order paper.

B. Suffredine: It is a pleasure to move Motion 46 standing on the order paper in my name.

Last fall we passed amendments to the Land Act. Those amendments were designed to ensure that the working land base is protected, just as we protect our

park land base. In the Kootenays where I'm from, just like in the rest of rural B.C., we depend on the land base for our incomes. Without it, we could not survive. Just as we protect parks, we need to protect and use the working portion of the land base.

I spent last Friday in a number of meetings about the importance of caribou in the Kootenays. Caribou are a notably endangered species. We have some small herds in our area. There are those who argue that we should protect the caribou by totally closing certain areas of our region to logging. The more I learn about it, the more I see of those that are doing the research…. There are very few caribou left in the two herds in my region — anywhere from 20 to 35 in each of the two herds. But the evidence is that although we're losing numbers, they don't appear to be starving, and the argument against logging seems to be based entirely on the fact that the caribou eat lichen in the winter to survive. That's something that grows on high alpine spruce and balsam. The lichen are eaten off the trees in the wintertime.

The fact is the caribou that are dying out don't appear to be dying for lack of food. It seems to me that if we're going to protect those caribou — and I believe we should; I strongly support that — we should look to find out what the problem is. Why are the caribou dying? What's killing them? Let's address the problem rather than try solutions that seem bound to fail.

On the counter side, proposals to close all logging within fairly substantial areas would essentially translate to about 150 to 200 people from the Creston area and the Wynndel area potentially losing their jobs. Those are from two sawmills in the area that have operated for about 90 years as local family businesses and that really are the sustaining part of the Creston-Wynndel communities.

I also learned, as I was going through this, that some other biologists that are quite credible people in their field have suggested — because of the small herd sizes in the caribou that exist — that those herds may not be sustainable by themselves no matter what we do. We may need to consider the possibility of either consolidating the two together or those into larger herds to build them up until we've got enough animals so that they will be a viable herd.

Now, I don't know what the answer is. I don't pretend to be a biologist. I support the efforts to protect those species, but what I don't support is substituting us as the endangered species in their place with a strategy that won't work. That's what I see us doing if we were to close the area without first finding out what the strategy should be.

There are many issues around endangered species like the caribou, grizzly bears and many other species. All too often the strategies that are employed, or at least that are called for, call for a simple return to a complete natural environment to allow the recovery. Those that call for that often ignore reality that wildlife like deer, elk, moose and caribou often thrive on farmed lands. For example, the elk in the Creston Valley are often out there eating farmers' fields in the summertime. It's a great source of food and very easy for them. If it was a natural environment and they had to compete with other ungulates like white-tailed deer for food up in the forested lands, they would have a much tougher time surviving. A strategy to improve the food supply might be the first thing we would like to focus on for each of the animals.

The other side of it is predators. There are often predators that are not as popular as hunting opportunities for people that go out hunting in the fall. We tend to hunt elk and deer for sources of food, but we don't actually tend to hunt the animals that kill them, and we as a population tend to be competing with the predators. We need to ensure that strategies are employed that will protect the species that are endangered while at the same time ensuring our own survival as people and as industries.

The former government systematically worked at destroying our mining industry. It made it nearly impossible for exploration companies to turn significant ore findings into actual mines. As a result, mining companies generally took their business to other provinces and other countries, and those countries benefited with jobs.

Our economy needs a balance between industry and sound environmental management in order to carry on. A lot of people don't realize it, but mining is really what opened up the Kootenays. As a recreational prospector, I know that many of the trails that allow us access to places like the Kokanee Park were opened up by mining. That was exactly why they began. Those trails today serve many back-country tourism opportunities, guide-outfitters — all kinds of things. I also know that mining as an activity impacts a very small area on the surface of the land. It impacts that land for a fairly small time frame in most cases, because usually it's mining a deposit of something we can use for a limited window.

Those who oppose mining often fail to consider that they need the products that result from mining in their daily lives. I just want to give you a few examples: to use a computer, use a telephone, wear a watch, drive a car, turn on a lightbulb, watch television and even have a glass of water, eat off a plate or use a knife or fork — simple activities that we all do every day. We wouldn't think of the glass of water as something that comes from mining, but it does. It comes from the gravel that glass is made from.

Now, there is a mine in our region named Crystal Graphite Corp. that mines a graphite product. They actually crush up a stone. It's about 5 or 6 percent of the stones that they mine. When we think of graphite, we think of things like a lead pencil, but in fact what they're making out of graphite in Crystal Graphite is a new technology. It's a battery that's used in hydrogen-powered cars and buses. We've all heard about the new development of those batteries. That's employing a new technology that is actually done so we can be more environmentally friendly and we can use those new power sources that won't depend on fossil fuels.

The next area is logging. There are many throughout my region and throughout the province who appear to be anti-logging. I know many, many loggers, and some of them are the best environmentalists I know, because they recognize that whether they'll have trees to cut in future depends on how they leave the forest when they're done each time. That same thing can be said about tourism operators. Tourism back-country operators, in particular, require a balance between development and environmental protection. Those back-country opportunities need to be sustainable, just as forestry does.

Now, we all depend on something to make our living, but few of us stop to think about whether our job would exist if there were no primary industries like mining, logging or tourism. We depend on the land base for tourism and recreation. Hunting, fishing, hiking, photography, snowmobile trips, mountain bike tours, Nordic cross-country skiing — those are just some examples.

If we want to preserve those opportunities — and we do want to do that — we also want to protect the wildlife at the same time. Many people don't think this either, but I know many hunters, and I consider them great conservationists. They know that whether they get to go hunting next year and enjoy that recreation depends on how well they manage the population. I have heard criticism of people who say that hunters who don't eat the game they shoot — that are, as they call it, trophy hunting — aren't good environmentalists, and I say the same is true of them. Whether they enjoy it because they eat the meat or whether they enjoy it for the sport of the hunt doesn't mean they don't care about whether they get to go next year. It doesn't mean they don't want it to continue indefinitely. All of that means that of necessity, we need a balance between the variety of species including the species that are not as popular for hunting. Sometimes one species will harm another. Sometimes they simply compete for the same food supply.

Human activities can potentially harm wildlife, and sometimes they can enhance it. The game need trails for access too. They don't need a dense forest in all circumstances. They need to get to food or water. Logging can create that access, and people can create that access. The fact is that many animals depend on open areas for a food supply, and they don't survive particularly well in an overgrown forest.

The balanced approach to land management is essential to the survival of our industries, and we can't survive without it. Without the primary industries that I've spoken of, most of us couldn't make a living in our communities and they would shrink. I don't know anyone who wants to set aside areas solely as playgrounds for the rich, and I regularly receive correspondence from people who object to that.

I want to close today, Mr. Speaker, and at the end of it, I will want to move the adjournment of debate today. In closing, I want to summarize all the foregoing with one comment. We need to take a balanced approach, and in taking that balanced approach, we need to take care that the choices we make, make the most of the land base and create good incomes for us and our children while protecting values and respecting the environment.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak today in support of Motion 46, Mr. Speaker. Noting the time, I move adjournment of debate.

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