Hansard -- Tuesday, May 13, 2003 p.m. -- Vol. 15, No. 11 (HTML)



CONTENTS

	Routine Proceedings
		Page

Introductions by Members		6725

Introduction and First Reading of Bills		6726
	Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2003 (Bill 42) Hon. B. Barisoff Integrated Pest Management Act (Bill 53) Hon. J. Murray Water, Land and Air Protection Statutes Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 55) Hon. J. Murray Flood Hazard Statutes Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 56) Hon. J. Murray Environmental Management Act (Bill 57) Hon. J. Murray Health Professions Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 62) Hon. S. Hawkins

Statements (Standing Order 25b)		6728
	Revelstoke Community Forest Corporation W. McMahon Youth in Action awards I. Chong Family caregivers G. Trumper

Oral Questions		6429
	Softwood lumber border tax T. Bhullar Hon. M. de Jong Children and Family Development ministry reorganization J. Kwan Hon. G. Hogg J. MacPhail Hon. G. Collins Employment standards in agriculture industry K. Stewart Hon. J. van Dongen

Reports from Committees		6732
	Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations, first report K. Stewart

Committee of the Whole House		6732
	Industry Training Authority Act (Bill 34) (continued) J. Kwan Hon. S. Bond

Reporting of Bills		6752
	Industry Training Authority Act (Bill 34)

	Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply		6752
	Estimates: Ministry of Health Planning (continued) R. Hawes Hon. S. Hawkins P. Nettleton G. Trumper L. Mayencourt B. Suffredine Estimates: Ministry of Health Services (continued) Hon. G. Cheema R. Masi B. Locke

Hon. G. Cheema: I would like to welcome someone who is a passionate advocate for mental health in our province. She's a dedicated and hard-working patron of British Columbia's health system, and we are very lucky to have her as a part of our team.

Irene Clarkson, the executive director of mental health and addictions for the Ministry of Health Services, has joined us in the House today. I would ask that all members please make her feel extremely welcome.

S. Orr: Today I have the pleasure of having three very special friends of mine in the House, who are not only great supporters politically and personally but great friends to our entire community here in the capital region.

Firstly, we have Mr. Benj O'Connor, who is absolutely no stranger to this House. He's past chair of the Hospital Foundation, and he's now chair of the capital campaign Together We Care. Their goal is $17 million, and under Benj's incredible commitment, they're already at $12 million.

Secondly, with Benj we have Eric Charman. Eric is the recipient not only of the Order of B.C. but also of the Order of Canada. Eric has fundraised in this community for nearly 50 years — he's only 51 — and he's fundraised in the arts, education and health care. They've never determined how much money he's actually raised for this community, but we know that it's in the tens and tens of millions of dollars.

Lastly, we have with them their guest, Bob Bardagy. Bob is very special to us, because he's moved here from Chicago. Bob made his money in the high-tech industry, and he is an entrepreneur, as is his wife, Pauline. Bob is actually in the high-tech industry; his wife, Pauline, is an entrepreneur in her own right. The wonderful thing about Bob and Pauline is that they have huge contacts in the U.S. market, and they bring these very, very wealthy, influential business people to stay with them at the weekend in their fabulous home on Beach Drive. They're doing more for U.S.–Canada trade than most of us realize.

They are philanthropists — unlike Minister Bruce — in our community, and we are blessed to have people like these in our community. They not only give of their volunteer time, but they give tons of their own money. Would the House please make them all very welcome.

Hon. G. Bruce: I've been called by popular demand before. Well, kidding or not, we're here, and I'm getting notes already.

You know, there's the Masters, there's the Grey Cup, there's the Stanley Cup, and there's Wimbledon. And then there is that classic tennis match between the press and the members of this august body here. It is about to be rescheduled again for later in June of this year.

Today in the House are a number of people responsible for putting that together. They've had lunch with the Speaker and the Clerk — the Clerk being, of course, the coach of our team. Just in case anybody forgot, and particularly the press, they have never won this tournament — at least, not legitimately.

This tournament is being sponsored by Hayes logging. Hayes logging has been around the Cowichan Valley as long as or perhaps longer than the Bruce family. In the House today the principal of Hayes Forest Services, Jeff Hayes, is here. We certainly appreciate Jeff and the Hayes family sponsoring this tennis match.

Incidentally, any of you who can play any calibre of tennis should let the Clerk know. You'll have to demonstrate that probably through a very gruelling exercise at the Clerk's house.

Along with Jeff Hayes is Rick Jeffery, vice-president of corporate relations for Hayes Forest Services, and Allan Case, who is the president of the South Cowichan Lawn Tennis Club. It is the second-longest housed lawn tennis court in the world.

Finally…. This is very important. I'm getting to a question shortly. [Laughter.]

The Providence Farm Hoedown is a great facility for the mentally handicapped and a number of other people that come in our community. Joining us here today is Jack Hutton, the director of Providence Farm, and also Chuck Johnstone, who is the tournament coordinator and director. With that, ladies and gentlemen, would you please make them all very, very welcome.

R. Hawes: I notice in the gallery today a longtime community advocate from my riding — from Mission — Kathleen Mcdonald, who has recently moved to Victoria. I'm sure she's looking to get involved in this community. So would the House please make her welcome.

G. Trumper: I certainly would like to recognize Eric Charman, who I know is a very good fundraiser for finances, and I would also like to recognize Jeff Hayes. They have come into the Alberni Valley as one of our largest employers in the forest industry.

With us today we have, from Alberni District Secondary School, 27 students visiting with their teacher,

Brian Lavery. They have Ms. Croteau with them and also Matt Lucas. Would the House please make them welcome.

Hon. S. Hawkins: Sitting in the precincts today is the province's chief nurse executive, Anne Sutherland Boal. I think it's very appropriate to recognize her today and all the accomplishments we've made with her help over the last year and a half with respect to nurses in this province, as it is Nursing Week. I'm sure all the members will join with me in conveying to all the nurses across this province how much we appreciate their commitment, their dedication and the work they do on behalf of patients across this province.

L. Mayencourt: I'll just take one moment to introduce a very good friend of mine, Ms. Martine Donahue, who is visiting the city here on a bike tour. Martine is someone that has worked in my constituency as a volunteer and worked on my campaign. Would the House please make her very welcome.

Hon. S. Hawkins: I can remember over the last few years how I would sit here and be castigated by the member for Kamloops–North Thompson over the Blazers, the hockey organization in his town. Then last year I think I took abuse from the member for East Kootenay over Kootenay ICE. I have to say how proud I am of the Kelowna Rockets ice hockey organization — Bruce Hamilton, the GM. Our Kelowna Rockets are the WHL champions, and they're off to the Memorial Cup. It's on Saturday, if anybody has some spare time. I know I'm going to be watching and cheering very loudly. As you know, or you may not know, Kelowna is hosting the Memorial Cup next year. I hope they come back as winners so we can defend it in Kelowna next year. Congratulations to the Rockets.

Hon. B. Barisoff presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Provincial Revenue Statutes Amendment Act (No. 2), 2003.

Hon. B. Barisoff: Bill 42 proposes a number of amendments to the Motor Fuel Tax Act and the Social Service Tax Act, which are administered by the Ministry of Provincial Revenue. These amendments result from ongoing consultations with business. They are made to ensure fairness and equity for taxpayers, to reduce the administrative burden for business and to provide efficiencies in tax administration and collection processes. I will elaborate on the nature of these amendments during second reading of this bill.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 42 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon. J. Murray presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Integrated Pest Management Act.

Hon. J. Murray: This bill repeals the Pesticide Control Act and replaces it with the Integrated Pest Management Act to accomplish three important goals. First, the new act will promote the use of integrated pest management to ensure that pesticides are only used once all options have been considered. The goal of requiring integrated pest management is to reduce our reliance on such substances and, over time, reduce their use. Second, it will focus ministry activity on monitoring and enforcing environmental standards and provide significantly higher fines for those who do not comply. Finally, it will focus provincial resources on activities and substances that pose the greatest risks to public health and environmental protection.

Our goal with the legislation and with the requirement of integrated pest management is a reduction in the amount of pesticides we use as a province. These changes will modernize the way pesticides are controlled in British Columbia. They will encourage responsible pest control and provide for enhanced public safety in a protected environment.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 53 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon. J. Murray presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Water, Land and Air Protection Statutes Amendment Act, 2003.

Hon. J. Murray: This bill amends a number of statutes administered by the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection. The amendments include changes to update, streamline and clarify certain provisions of the Park Act and the Wildlife Act and to update the schedules to the Protected Areas of British Columbia Act.

This bill also furthers this government's deregulation initiative by providing for the repeal of a number of statutes because they are outdated and no longer needed. These acts are the Commercial River Rafting Safety Act, the Drainage and Dyking Adjustment and Repeal Act, the Park (Regional) Act, the Weather Modification Act and the West Coast National Park Act.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 55 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon. J. Murray presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Flood Hazard Statutes Amendment Act, 2003.

Hon. J. Murray: This bill amends a number of statutes governing flood hazard management in order to facilitate a comprehensive shift in the provincial approach to flood hazard management in British Columbia.

Its fundamental purpose is to establish more efficient, cost-effective and locally responsive means for ensuring flood protection. It will reduce regulatory burden and protect public safety while achieving the strategic shifts presented in the service plan of the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection.

The amendments will enable the following changes. They will make possible increased local government control and accountability over land use decisions associated with floodplain development. They will provide communities and developers with increased flexibility in meeting flood hazard standards and will enable the provincial government to focus its efforts in areas of the greatest interest to public safety and the environment.

In addition, the changes will facilitate — through the provision of appropriate tools for developers, local government and professionals — a cooperative approach to flood hazard management in British Columbia.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 56 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon. J. Murray presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Environmental Management Act.

Hon. J. Murray: This bill repeals the Waste Management Act and the Environment Management Act, replacing them with the new Environmental Management Act.

This new act will accomplish several goals. It will consolidate and better organize our environmental legislation. It will establish clear environmental standards and tough penalties for violators. It will allow ministry staff to spend more time in the field ensuring compliance with the environmental laws of the province, focusing on activities that pose the greatest environmental risk.

It will enable the use of groundbreaking and innovative regulatory tools for waste management, including economic instruments, administrative monetary penalties and area-based planning. These tools will encourage compliance while making it easier to punish polluters.

The act will harmonize our approach to special waste with that of other jurisdictions, eliminating duplication and confusion. The current contaminated-sites regime will be modified to begin implementation of the expert panel's recommendations and speed the rejuvenation of these areas.

Finally, the new act will improve ministry consistency and accountability by making sure decisions are applied evenly across the province. These changes represent the first comprehensive review of this legislation in over 20 years. These changes are overdue, and they will significantly improve this government's ability to achieve its goals: a safe and healthy environment and a robust economy.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 57 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon. S. Hawkins presented a message from His Honour the Administrator: a bill intituled Health Professions Amendment Act, 2003.

Hon. S. Hawkins: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Hon. S. Hawkins: These amendments aim to improve public accountability, protect patient safety and provide a consistent framework for the regulation of health care professions by including all health professions under one statute.

These amendments will repeal six stand-alone statutes that regulate chiropractors, dentists, physicians, optometrists, podiatrists and registered nurses, meaning a reduction of overlap and duplication as well as a net reduction of over 800 regulations.

The amendments contained in this act stem from recommendations of the former Health Professions Council in its 2001 report Safe Choices: A New Model for Regulating Health Professions in British Columbia. Since last summer we have been working to develop these amendments in consultation with the colleges that regulate health professions in B.C.

These amendments aim to increase public confidence in health care professionals and to ensure that professional colleges have direct responsibility for ensuring patient safety. For example, the public will have greater access to complaints about individual health care practitioners, health care professionals will be required to report to their professional college a health professional who poses a public safety risk, and the colleges will be required to implement quality assurance programs to improve health services for patients.

In addition, these amendments enable the designation of a new health professional, the nurse practitioner, by the Registered Nurses Association of B.C. The nurse practitioner designation aims to expand the role of nurses in our health care system in order to better serve our patients and citizens as we renew primary care.

I move that the bill be placed on the orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 62 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

W. McMahon: I rise today to acknowledge the Revelstoke Community Forest Corporation. On Saturday, May 3, the corporation celebrated its tenth anniversary with the community. I was there to join in the celebrations and had the pleasure of being handed a chainsaw to cut the cake as the rain poured down.

Looking back on the past ten years, it is important to recognize that in 1986 the community was in a severe economic slump. Megaproject construction had ended, mills were shut down, and unemployment was over 30 percent. The community developed an economic recovery plan with four main goals, the fourth one being to strengthen the local forest industry.

From 1986 until 1993, when the Minister of Forests signed the transfer of TFL 56 to the newly formed Revelstoke Community Forest Corporation, the city lobbied strongly for more processing of local timber, and many would say they aggressively pursued their fourth goal.

The corporation shareholders are the citizens of Revelstoke, represented by city council. In addition to profit motive, the company must support community objectives and values. According to the TFL, they are not allowed to own or operate a timber manufacturing plant. Fifty percent of the timber must be sold by open competitive bid to the highest bidder, and the other 50 percent goes to the three industry partners at cost. They must process an equivalent volume in the community.

While there were many, many individuals involved in the formation and successful operation of the community forest, I would like to acknowledge Geoff Battersby for his unfailing leadership. Today Revelstoke Community Forest Corp is a success story. It has developed into a stable and profitable company in the highly volatile and competitive forest sector while contributing to the city of Revelstoke's vision of achieving a sustainable community by balancing environmental, social and economic values.

Congratulations, Revelstoke. Your foresight and determination are paying off. Your success is an example of what can be accomplished in British Columbia's forest industry.

I. Chong: It is my pleasure today to speak about an important program in Victoria, the Youth in Action Awards. This program was started in 1990 by the Greater Victoria Chamber of Commerce with the goal of celebrating the positive contributions that young people make to their communities.

It recognizes youth in six categories: perseverance, practical arts, performing or visual arts, community service, athletics and academics. Students are nominated for the awards by their teachers, and the presentations are made at a gala banquet in the springtime of every year.

I was fortunate to have attended this dinner last Thursday at which 18 outstanding young people were recognized for their achievements. This banquet represents the culmination of the active efforts of the late Dr.

David Poole, who in 1994 convinced the chamber board to include an awards dinner as part of their program. One of the original sponsors, CIBC Wood Gundy, continues to be involved to the extent that they have enabled the awarding of not only plaques but also cash awards to the very deserving recipients each year.

These awards are jointly sponsored by the Greater Victoria, Saanich Peninsula and West Shore Chambers of Commerce and include students from school districts 61, 62 and 63. In addition to the winner of each category, two honourable mentions are also awarded. The youth, although nominated in specific categories, are incredibly well-rounded. As each award recipient was introduced, we were provided with insight into their very many accomplishments in their young lives.

I applaud the chambers for their initiative of this program, and it is important we recognize our youth for their positive contributions to our society. Programs such as the Youth in Action Awards help to inspire young people to have a positive role in their communities and to set their goals high.

I wish to also say how proud I am that in my riding of Oak Bay–Gordon Head, nine of the 18 recipients hail from those schools. Congratulations to this year's award recipients: Jennifer Abel, Dean Pucsek, Katie Lochhead, Jason Rogers, Sara White, Brent Hodge, Steve Fallows, Graham Roebuck, Emily Heayn, Claire Jutras, Nikki Hodgkinson, Lindsay De Leeuw, Stephanie Connolly, Colin Lundeen, Erin Little, Jennifer Ruskey, Yichuan Wang and Xiangning Fan. These high achievers represent our leaders of tomorrow, and I wish them all the best in the future.

G. Trumper: I rise today in recognition of Family Caregiver Week, May 11 to 17. This week family caregivers across British Columbia will be recognized for their enormous and selfless volunteer efforts that provide high-quality care for adult family members or friends who may be chronically ill or disabled.

A family caregiver is a family friend, a friend or even a neighbour who provides support to those who are physically or mentally challenged, chronically ill, frail and elderly, either at home or in a care facility. Family caregivers provide care to all age groups regardless of the care receiver's disease, disorder or palliative situation. They come from all walks of life regardless of age or income. They can be spouses, partners, adult children, in-laws, siblings, young children and other extended family members.

These individuals are distinguished from volunteers through their own personal bond or connection to the care recipient. Accordingly, many family caregivers feel that providing a better quality of life for loved ones is their most important responsibility in life. For those of us in the House who have been family caregivers, we know how stressful it can be at times.

The prevalence of family caregiving in this century is unprecedented in history, due to the fact that we can expect to have third, fourth and even fifth generations still alive. Daughters and sons in this century can expect their parents to live well beyond the age of 70. Add to this a declining birth rate, and it is apparent what the future trends will be.

Currently, in British Columbia there are approximately 152,000 caregivers. Over one-half of these volunteer caregivers are in the paid workforce, and 73 percent are women. As we know, many of B.C. caregivers have either reduced their work time or left the workforce to provide full-time care, so the negative impact on their financial status when retirement age sets in will be tremendous.

On this note, devotion given by British Columbia's family caregivers needs to be recognized and honoured. If families across Canada are not carrying out their responsibilities for ailing loved ones at home, the health care system, as we know, could not function for even half a day.

T. Bhullar: My question is directed to the Minister of Forests. Can the minister please impart to this House precisely how the border tax that has been proposed to solve the softwood dispute would function and whether this border tax is an interim measure pending the final ruling of the WTO?

Hon. M. de Jong: Thanks to the member for a timely question. He may know — and if he doesn't, I will tell him now — that this week we are exploring with our federal partners whether there is some basis for the resumption of more formal negotiations with the Americans, and that is tied to whether or not we think there has been sufficient common ground achieved to lead us to conclude there is some prospect for succeeding.

His specific question relates to a temporary or interim border tax that might replace the existing tariff. In large measure, that is what the negotiation will be about — the structure, the amount, what items are captured by it. It is one of two key issues that remain unresolved and stands between us and an interim agreement — the second, of course, being the $1.2 billion question, which is what happens to the significant moneys that have been left on deposit with the Americans.

J. Kwan: Last week when we asked the Minister of Children and Family Development about the mess he has created for child protection, he said everything was under control. This week we learned how untrue that was. A private management resource team — rescue

team, I should say — has been called in to save the minister's political skin.

Will the Minister of Children and Family Development acknowledge that hiring a consulting firm to meet his budget targets is an admission that his plan to reorganize child protection has been a costly waste of money?

Hon. G. Hogg: I want to reinforce that the first priority of this government is the health and safety of children in this province. I also want to reinforce that…

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. We will have order during question period, or we'll end question period right here.

Hon. G. Hogg: …when this government was formed and looked at this ministry, we realized that changes needed to be made — not just reorganizations that had taken place in the past, but that we had to transform this ministry to provide services. We were told that by international experts, we were told that by experience, we were told that by service providers, and we were told that by our staff. We are doing that, and we're doing that in a focused way.

We have brought in all the supports that we can have to look at and to manage this process. We are looking at contractors in terms of being able to provide us better data and better information so that we can make the best decisions possible for the most vulnerable children of this province.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a supplementary question.

J. Kwan: The best decision possible for this minister is to make sure that his budget is fully met so that there will be no cuts in the funding for child protection.

The government is spending some $25 million on the botched transition to a new model of child protection — $25 million that should go to programs for kids at risk. Now they're spending hundreds of thousands more dollars because the Minister of Children and Family Development has blown it.

When will the Minister of Children and Family Development admit that people on the front lines for child protection are telling him that his budget cuts threaten the child protection system, and with that, the system will collapse? When will he do the right thing and resign?

Hon. G. Hogg: There has been a lot of talk about $25 million, and that's been a budget that has been out there. About $11 million of that was expended last year. None of it has been expended beyond that. That $11 million was expended to engage our communities in looking at service provision.

We've had over 14,000 people attending meetings and looking at a better service provision model for the people of this province. That involvement of those people is going to make a difference in terms of how we deliver services and how we move forward.

Again, the people out there are talking about the change and the change being the right transformation. Every international expert that has looked at us, including people who were here last week, has said this transformation is the right transformation to ensure the health and safety of children and vulnerable adults in this province. That will always be the number one priority of this ministry, and we will ensure that we focus our resources to make sure that does happen.

Mr. Speaker: Member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant has a further supplementary.

J. Kwan: The best way for the minister, once again, to ensure children are protected is to ensure that the programs are funded. Maybe the minister hasn't actually had a look at the risk registry. Citizens of B.C. already spend millions of dollars on the minister and a senior executive team to run B.C.'s child protection system. They have failed — miserably, I might add. The grand design is falling apart and is costing millions of dollars in wasted resources.

Why should the Minister of Children and Family Development continue to earn one more penny in salary as a member of cabinet when the government has hired a private rescue team to do his job for him?

Hon. G. Hogg: I want to reinforce that we have the largest bureaucratic service delivery for children and families in Canada. It's inefficient, and it's ineffective. We have to go to a new model for doing that and providing that service, and that's exactly what we're doing. We have been saying, in our service plan, since day one that we had a plan in place and that we have a process in place to ensure that we protect and provide those services. We are still on that plan. We recognize there are some challenges in the year '04-05, and we're wanting to make sure that we deal with those in a responsible, effective way.

I know other governments have looked at risk needs and have looked at risk analysis and have looked at processes to ensure that they do make good decisions. We are doing everything we can to gather the information necessary to make the most positive and responsible decisions possible to ensure that we do make the right decisions for the people of this province.

J. MacPhail: While this minister is incompetent and every day proves that, the real tragedy, of course, is not his incompetence. The real tragedy is that the services to protect vulnerable kids are being affected because of not only his incompetence but the incompetence of this government.

As opposition leader, the now Premier told British Columbians he would spend more on child protection

services, not less. He said the government would spend whatever it took to protect kids. As it turns out, that's not true. Rather than throw good money after bad on a scheme that is completely out of control, why won't the Minister of Children and Family Development step aside and allow someone new to take over, who can fight for the resources they need for protecting kids — for doing the job that's needed and that's not being done now?

Hon. G. Collins: In fact, the minister responsible for children and family has been doing exactly that. The minister knows these are the priorities of government. When the Premier was in this House and Leader of the Opposition, he did say we would do what we needed, as opposition, to try and help and make sure that the transitions happened, make sure that the services were there for children when they needed them — a much different response than what we've seen from the Leader of the Opposition currently, I might add.

The reality is that we have identified challenges in '04-05 to the financial plan for that ministry. We want to make sure…. While last year they came in on budget and on target and this year they will come in on budget and on target, we're concerned there may be risks in 2004-05. We're dealing with that now, eight months in advance — unlike what we saw with the previous government, who didn't know until halfway through the fiscal year that they had challenges and problems in the ministry. We're getting ahead of it. We have brought in some outside consultants to help us improve the data collection for the ministry. So when we make a decision, we're making it with good information.

The minister responsible is doing exactly the thing he should be doing. The money that's being spent on the transition is money that's used to consult with those very people the member says have issues. We want to get out there and talk to the people. The minister was in Penticton yesterday dealing with them. That's what the funds are for, and we'll continue to focus those dollars appropriately.

J. MacPhail: Boy, an incompetent children and families minister being rescued by the most incompetent Finance minister, who's run the three largest deficits in the history of British Columbia. What's wrong with that picture? Why is the story changing on a daily basis?

Not only is there a raft of quotes from the then opposition leader, now Premier, completely going against what the Minister of Finance is now saying, but what the Finance minister is saying is completely different from what this minister of children and families said just a few short weeks ago.

Over and over again the now Premier said, while he was in opposition, that the cost didn't matter — children were worth the money. Did he mean something different when this incompetent Finance minister put in a three-year budget — cutting, cutting, cutting? What's changed? And he said — the Leader of the Opposition then, now Premier — he would work with government and those outside to spend whatever it took to protect kids.

Here's a good quote. He said: "Big changes to child protection cost money." After two years on the job we've got a lame-duck minister, an incompetent Finance minister, a child protection system in danger of collapse and hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent on a private management system…

Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order, please. Would the member now please put her question.

J. MacPhail: If the minister refuses to step aside, will he at least put his reorganization on hold, live up to the promise made by the Premier, begin to involve the public and the child protection community in an open and transparent review of child protection to ensure that vulnerable kids are not at risk, just like the Premier claimed he would do seven years ago?

Hon. G. Collins: The seven years is interesting, because of those seven years, this government's been in power for less than two. Her government was in power…

Hon. G. Collins: …for five of those years, and it's indicative of the challenges that remain in that ministry, because they weren't dealt with five or seven years ago.

Hon. G. Collins: In the last couple of weeks I've taken the time to go back and read every one of the comments of the now Premier when he was Leader of the Opposition in this House as it relates to this issue. What he said was that the resources that were required need to be available, and he offered to help in order to make that happen. He also said he would be willing to help the government of the day look elsewhere in government to find those resources.

I've read all of the comments of the now Premier with regard to this issue, and the policy and the priorities remain. The first priority is to make sure that vulnerable adults and vulnerable children receive the pro-

But as the minister has said over and over again, we inherited the most bureaucratic, expensive delivery model in Canada. The system has to change. It has to be improved….

J. MacPhail: Independent officers, children and youth advocates — all of which you voted for — you've now dismantled.

Hon. G. Collins: Those issues need to be pursued. The system does need to change. We need to get more of those services directly to the front lines. The minister has been engaged for almost two years in open consultation — transparent consultation — with literally tens of thousands of British Columbians from one end to the other — service providers and families as well. We're going to put the resources required there in the most efficient way possible to make sure that those goals are maintained.

K. Stewart: My question today is to the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries. In my riding of Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows the agriculture industry, specifically the blueberry and cranberry industry, plays an important role in the local economy. However, each year in British Columbia and across Canada there have been problems with workers' agreements and the payment of casual labour. Can the Minister of Agriculture, Food and Fisheries tell me what the government is doing to improve working conditions on farms and to attract more workers into this industry?

Hon. J. van Dongen: Every year as we approach the harvest season, we certainly have concerns about employment standards and, in particular, unpaid wages, which we regard as a core issue. We have worked closely in the past year with the farming industry and the Ministry of Labour to address these issues.

The Minister of Labour last year passed some clear employment standards rules with stiffer penalties to ensure that employers comply. We do have agreement of the industry this year to include site inspections as part of the enforcement regime, and we will also have a liaison officer with the Ministry of Labour to work with the farming industry on education and compliance issues.

To sum up, we want to be sure that workers get paid and that we have working conditions that meet the standards. We want to have an industry that is competitive across Canada in terms of the rules, and we want to have an industry that has the capacity to harvest its crops in a timely manner.

Hon. G. Collins: In Committee A, I call Committee of Supply. For the information of members, we'll be discussing the estimates of the Ministry of Health Planning as well as the Ministry of Health Services as it pertains to the Minister of State for Mental Health and the Minister of State for Intermediate, Long Term and Home Care.

In this chamber I call committee stage debate of Bill 34, the Industry Training Authority Act.

Mr. Speaker: Just before we go to that, we have a report to be tabled by the member for Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows.

K. Stewart: I have the honour to present the first report of the Select Standing Committee on Crown Corporations.

K. Stewart: I ask leave of the House to permit the moving of a motion to adopt the report.

The House in Committee of the Whole (Section B) on Bill 34; J. Weisbeck in the chair.

J. Kwan: We were dealing with the definitions section under the bill, Bill 34. Could the minister please advise how a person will know what training to take for a defined trade?

Hon. S. Bond: They will learn that procedure the same way they do now. Currently, a trade has a particular set of criteria and requirements. It will be the same process. The good news, though, is that, over

time, students and learners will have the opportunity of choosing where they may take a particular course that leads to the certification. We hope to also look at things like on-line learning — so in essence, the same way.

We will have a website. It will list a trade. The criteria will be listed there as well.

J. Kwan: Will there be a system in place to obtain industry trends, to keep track of the relevant training and to make sure that they're current?

Hon. S. Bond: One of the most significant goals of the new Industry Training Authority is precisely that. It's to look at how industry changes — what the requirements are.

We want the system to be more responsive to that, so one of the tasks of the Industry Training Authority is to work with trainers and industry to determine new courses that are required and to better match how we train people to the needs of industry.

One of the recent things that we've done in our ministry is that our curriculum is now on-line. It allows trainers to work with educators and industry to actually develop and update that curriculum on a regular basis.

J. Kwan: In the definition of "trainee" it states in the act that it means "an individual registered as a trainee or apprentice under section 9." Will the employer still have responsibility for indenturement of an apprentice?

Hon. S. Bond: Yes, there is a requirement in the legislation that requires all apprentices — and we're now including trainees — to register.

J. Kwan: How will legal issues — i.e., WCB, liability, etc., — be handled if the employer does not have…? How would it be handled?

Hon. S. Bond: Nothing will change in that respect. In fact, employers will continue to be responsible for their workers' safety, and standards will continue to be in place as they are now.

J. Kwan: Do the private trainers of apprentices in the province fall under the definition of "training institution" in part 1, or are they recognized as institutions under the College and Institute Act?

Hon. S. Bond: Private trainers are defined as trainers. Training institutions are the public colleges, university colleges and institutes.

J. Kwan: The private trainers with private institutions — then they fall under the College and Institute Act?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, private institutions would fall under the definition of trainer.

J. Kwan: The definition of trainer, according to the act, means "a person designated as a trainer by the authority under section 8 (1) (m)." Then when you go to (m), it goes on to say: "The authority may do one or more of the following: (m) designate persons as trainers and define their duties."

Private trainers, then, can just be made up and be sanctioned to do that work from the authority. Who will govern them? Who will provide the oversight of the private trainers to ensure that they're doing a proper job and to ensure that there's protection for the students?

Hon. S. Bond: The Industry Training Authority will have a relationship with private trainers similar to the one they have with public institutions in the province.

J. Kwan: But the public institutions fall under the College and Institute Act, so there is a governing body that will oversee problems and make sure there is a standard that's being met. Is it the case, then, that the authority is going to be doing that? If there is a problem with a private trainer, which would be a private institution, who would deal with those problems? Is it the authority? What is the process following that?

Hon. S. Bond: Private trainers will be governed. Some of them will be societies; some of them will be corporations. Obviously, those would be governed by the Society Act or the Company Act. They would also currently be registered with the Private Post-Secondary Education Commission. That will obviously have a successor pending the passage of current legislation.

J. Kwan: What is the recourse available for students who are receiving training from a private company or private institution when that private institution goes belly up? What recourse is available for the students to recover their tuition fees, amongst other things?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, currently 15 out of the 17 private trainers are actually joint union-employer boards, so apprentices or workers that are in that particular situation are obviously protected by their unions. In addition to that, if they are registered currently with PPSEC, there is a bonding provision in place which takes care of students in that particular circumstance. In the legislation that is before the House now, there will be a student protection fund as well.

J. Kwan: I want to canvass this a little bit because the concern, of course, is that some of the students in other areas, where they have engaged in private institutions for training in whatever area, have actually run into problems because the institution that they are receiving the training from has gone into bankruptcy. In some cases they've simply taken away the equipment and the resources in the classroom and reduced the standards in the classroom for the students. In those

Is the minister saying that the students would be protected? Will they get a full refund, then, if they run into a problem in that instance?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, and I'm sure we're looking forward to the discussion about the broader principles about this under the other piece of legislation, because it really is a broader issue of student protection with private training institutions and trainers.

In fact, there will be the creation, under the new legislation, of a student tuition protection fund which would ensure that students have two options. One would be the opportunity to train out with another institution, should there be a problem, and the other would be a tuition refund.

Hon. S. Bond: Dependent on the circumstances, but, again, that is an issue that will be covered under the legislation, under the new private career training authority act.

J. Kwan: The relevance, of course, to this act is that the private institutions could provide training, and then the trainers under the private institution are designated by the authority under this act. Therefore, the protection for the students and the trainees needs to be made clear under this act, which is why I'm pursuing this line of questioning here. Yes, there's a broader context and other programming, but we're talking specifically here about the industrial training components.

How will the determination be made whether or not a person gets a full refund? The minister advises that it would depend on the situation. What does she mean by that? Is it institution by institution, and it depends on their own policy in terms of how they go about doing that? Or is there a provision within the governmental guidelines that would apply to stipulate that after so many days of training a person has received, if there should be problems after that, then a person gets a portion of the refund? How would that work?

Hon. S. Bond: Every training institution would have to have refund policies, and the provisions and guidelines around that policy would be outlined in the bill that we're not debating now.

J. Kwan: But generally speaking, is the minister suggesting that it is up to the private institutions themselves to set up whatever policy they will bring forward?

Hon. S. Bond: That will be the bill that will lay out — and has already been tabled in this House — at least the procedure and the criteria for the student tuition protection fund.

J. Kwan: Relevant to this area here, could the minister advise what those rules will be?

Hon. S. Bond: Actually, I'm going to offer to bring that information when we address the other piece of legislation, because there are changes to the student tuition protection fund. I'd like to be able to bring back the accurate information about that. This is actually two bills that are crossing over here, in terms of student protection.

J. Kwan: They do cross over, which is why I'm canvassing these questions, as it is relevant to this sector. I'm not talking about the other sectors.

As long as I'm able to ask these questions, with the other bill and with the assurance from the minister, I'm prepared to table these questions until we deal with that bill. Could I just get that on the record from the minister?

Hon. S. Bond: I'd be happy to address those issues when that bill does come to the floor, and it will give us a chance to be more specific about the changes that are being made.

J. Kwan: Perhaps related to that…. I want to make sure also, in terms of the training costs associated for this sector…. Is there a grid or a set of guidelines that would apply in terms of the training costs? What I'm trying to get after is, of course, the apprentices…. Is it anticipated that the costs for them to obtain the training would increase under this new act?

Hon. S. Bond: As of September 2002, apprentices in the province of British Columbia did pay a tuition fee. That will continue. We do not set the tuition fees, as we do not set tuition fees across academic public institutions either. I should just point out that currently the percentage of a course fee attributed to tuition is 15 percent.

Hon. S. Bond: That is a decision that is in the hands of institutions, as we have looked at tuition completely in the sector. Tuition for apprentices is handled in the same way.

J. Kwan: In other words, there is nothing that will control the tuition fee costs that trainees may be faced with. It's completely deregulated, and therefore there could be a substantive increase in the cost for someone to obtain the training. This is problematic, in my view, because part of the issue here is to increase the number of trainees. With the skill shortage that exists in British Columbia, one would have thought that the government would bring in legislation that would ensure and maximize the number of trainees across the province.

Having said that, I'm ready to go to section 2. Just for the information of the House, the opposition caucus

has tremendous problems with Bill 34. Instead of voting against each section individually, to save time we'll be voting against the bill in a collective effort. So we won't be spending time on each section's vote.

J. Kwan: Section 2 deals with the Industry Training Authority, and then within that there's the component about the Industry Training Authority and how it is established. Section 2(1) states: "The Industry Training Authority is established as a corporation consisting of a board of directors appointed under section 3."

Could the minister please advise how the ITA will manage all sectors without an ITAC-like body between the ITA and industry?

Hon. S. Bond: We are moving away from the formal trades advisory committee mechanism. As the member knows, there were 65-plus of those. Having said that, this legislation does not constrain the Industry Training Authority in terms of how they consult with a variety of sectors. They could choose to set up regional advisory committees. There's just a multitude of opportunities for the Industry Training Authority as they consult within the sectors.

J. Kwan: Could the minister please advise: how will small businesses have a voice on such a small ITA?

Hon. S. Bond: The Industry Training Authority, as I mentioned in our earlier discussion this morning, will not represent particular groups. What we will be doing is appointing nine people in British Columbia who are experts and who have a vision for skills and trades training in the province. But it's important that the Industry Training Authority understand and fully appreciate the role of small business and the challenges they face, and we've certainly heard a lot about that with the current training model. I know that as the advisory system is set up for the Industry Training Authority, the concerns and considerations of small business interests will be taken into account.

J. Kwan: Well, then I go back to the problem that exists with this act, because it doesn't actually ensure that there's broad representation accordingly. I did mention this earlier this morning. Small business, as the minister knows, is a key component in this industry. One would assume that there would be some way to ensure that their voice is at the table, but it appears that there isn't. It's just going to be some nine appointments made up by the minister — and then end of story.

The minister consistently says that everything will be fine, but there's nothing in legislation to ensure there's protection and broad representation to that end. So the minister is just asking people to take her word for it. As I mentioned, quite frankly, it's not good enough. It's not good enough. I don't trust much of what this government does, and so simply saying it doesn't need to be in legislation and everything will just be fine, I think, is problematic.

Now I want to ask the minister about budgets for the authority. Is there a budget established for the authority? If so, what is the amount?

K. Stewart: Today we have visiting, from the beautiful riding of Maple Ridge–Pitt Meadows, a group from Fairview Elementary, and they are here with their teacher, Ms. Labelle. They've been touring the facilities for the day, and they just came in here to see how we conduct our business in the House. So would the House please make them all very welcome.

Hon. S. Bond: Well, certainly I do want to comment on the appointment process for the Industry Training Authority. We have in government a principle of appointing boards, authorities and commissions on a principle of merit. I am delighted to have received dozens of names from across British Columbia of outstanding individuals who I know will lead and guide this process with a visionary and aggressive approach that will meet the needs of learners in this province. We will be using the process set up by the board resourcing and development office and the principles that are used there, so I am certain we are going to have an authority that is outstanding and will do an excellent job.

In terms of the budget allocation for the Industry Training Authority, in section 16 of the bill it clearly outlines the fact that there is $78.438 million set aside for the authority.

I just want to go back and comment. I know the minister talks about the merit-based appointment, and I do want to point out that to decide on a merit-based appointment does not mean you cannot achieve the other goal of broad representation. Those two things are not exclusive. They can actually come together, and you can achieve both goals.

That's the point that the minister consistently fails to understand. Those things can actually come together, and you can actually have the cake and eat it too, in this instance — have merit as well as broad representation. That could be in legislation to ensure that those goals are achieved.

I've already gone on about how I don't trust the minister's and this government's approach to appointments, because the history has actually shown that the government, instead of basing it on merit, is actually basing it on partisanship. We've already seen that in the communications branch and in other areas as well. I won't belabour that and go into it again, but I do just want to point that out. One thing is not exclusive of the other, and that seems to be the point the minister is missing.

Perhaps I'll ask the other question related to the budget. Or I can ask it now. I'll seek the advice from the minister relating to the budget: how does that compare to the ITAC budget formerly?

Hon. S. Bond: In terms of looking at the budget, I want to compare apples to apples. As you know, there's been major transition in the Industry Training and Apprenticeship Commission, including offices, etc. But one of the most relevant features is the program budget, which is the actual training dollars. The 2002-03 dollar amount, in terms of ITAC, was $71.250 million, and in 2003-04 the program budget will be $73.781 million.

J. Kwan: So then there's a substantive decrease in the amount in terms of the budget for this authority versus ITAC. No matter how you slice it, it's a substantive decrease — almost by half. Is that not correct?

Hon. S. Bond: The reduction in dollars was simply in things like overhead. The numbers I quoted…. Let me give them to you one more time. Program dollars in 2002-03 were $71.250 million, and this year, in '03-04, it is $73.781 million. So in the program area alone, we're looking at a significant increase of several million dollars.

J. Kwan: The $70 million — is that for programming, or is that just for administration?

Mr. Chair, I can ask those questions under section 16 — whatever the minister prefers.

J. Kwan: The total budget is $78 million approximately, and the program budget is $73 million. So is the administration the difference between — that is, about $5 million…?

Hon. S. Bond: Yes, there is $4 million in addition to the money we mentioned in terms of program budgets. I should point out, too, that our pilot projects are included in the program budget of $73 million-plus. So the costs out of the $4 million that exist in addition are the industry training centre in Burnaby, which will provide resources and support to apprentices and trainees, and also the industry training branch of my ministry.

J. Kwan: Could the minister please refresh my memory in terms of the closure of the ITAC offices? Where were they, and how many were closed?

Hon. S. Bond: There were 16 offices located around the province. There was one in Vancouver, Burnaby, Coquitlam, Surrey, Abbotsford, Victoria, Nanaimo, Courtenay, Kamloops, Kelowna, Nelson, Cranbrook, Prince George, Terrace, Dawson Creek and Williams Lake — 16 in total.

J. Kwan: There were 16 ITAC offices that were closed around the province. There will be one replacement in Burnaby in its place under this new model, under this piece of legislation. Given that the other locations are now being shut down, there's only really one centralized location. How will people access the information they were formerly able to access when there were the 16 locations available?

Hon. S. Bond: We didn't simply close the offices around the province without thinking about how we might provide services to students and learners in this province. In fact, we thought there might be a better way of doing that and with existing infrastructure. What we did is look at, for example, where a student could write an exam, for which they would have had to travel to one of those 16 locations in the province. We managed to work out an arrangement, an agreement, in the interim with the government agents offices around the province. As I understand it, there are 58 government agents offices where we are now going to provide the opportunity for students to write exams and do a variety of things, for which they probably would have had to travel before to do.

In addition to that, there are 15 colleges that we are working with who currently have counsellors, people who work with industry training all of the time. One of the things that's been extremely encouraging, as we've developed the model, is the role that colleges have taken as they've stepped up to the plate. They are offering more apprenticeship opportunities than we have ever had, as a matter of fact, in terms of options for students in locations all around the province.

While on one hand we did close the 16 offices around the province, we are providing a new network of support to students using existing infrastructure.

J. Kwan: Of the colleges that the minister advises will be available to provide support to trainees — counsellors, etc. — could the minister please advise which colleges have signed on to do this work?

Hon. S. Bond: My staff is currently working with a consortium of all 15 colleges as they put together a service model and look at how they can provide services to trainees and apprentices. I can think of one in particular — North Island College, for example — that is offering full apprentices in a number of areas where previously they were not able to do that. In fact, they

were limited to doing entry-level trades training. Now, with the new system, they are saying: "We want to offer full apprenticeship opportunities at North Island College."

I should also say there's a consortium on Vancouver Island that's working together. My staff is working with all 15 colleges as a consortium. In terms of who is sort of leaping to the forefront of this at the moment, we have great, exciting initiatives happening across the sector, but in particular at BCIT, Camosun, Capilano, Vancouver Community College, University College of the Cariboo, Fraser Valley, Kwantlen, Malaspina and Okanagan. We have some excellent work being done at College of the Rockies, New Caledonia, North Island, Northern Lights, Northwest and Selkirk.

J. Kwan: Are these colleges given additional resources to do this work or not?

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, we did provide all the institutions that were offering trades training with additional dollars. We called it restructuring funding. Each one of those institutions that I mentioned did receive additional dollars in this fiscal to assist them in the restructuring process.

Hon. S. Bond: To clarify that, Mr. Chairperson, I want to make sure I get it accurate.

We provided a total of $2 million out of last fiscal — so that would be out of '02-03 — across that number of institutions. I can certainly give the member the breakdown should she wish that.

J. Kwan: Yes. If the minister could do that, that would be great. I am assuming that those dollars are dedicated dollars only for this program specifically.

Hon. S. Bond: They were. It was called industry training restructuring funding. While we did supplement them with additional funds, which they had more discretion to use in terms of some dollars that we had available, this money was designated as industry training restructuring.

J. Kwan: Will there be consultation with respect to the appointment of the board of directors for the authority?

Hon. S. Bond: The process we'll be using is the board resourcing and development office procedure. Names have been given to us, as I said. We have dozens of names. Those will be vetted through board resourcing and development, and the recommendations will be presented to the minister.

Hon. S. Bond: There will not be a formal consultation process. I can assure you that the individuals that have been recommended — and I have looked at lists of names — are all highly qualified, outstanding individuals. Board resourcing and development will be continuing to work on that. The names will be presented to me, and those appointments will be recommended to me as minister.

J. Kwan: The concerns, then, that would be raised from the public relating to this area…. Would it be the authority's responsibility to deal with and address those concerns, or would it be the ministry and therefore the minister who would be dealing with those concerns?

Hon. S. Bond: If the member could just clarify the question around the area of concern that people would be expressing, that would be helpful to us.

J. Kwan: There is no specific area. I suppose I could make up one. I'm just asking generally in terms of the process where concerns or issues are raised. I'm not talking about complaints, because we dealt with that earlier.

Would those matters be brought to the authority for the authority to deal with, or would they be brought to the ministry and therefore for the minister to deal with? What would the process be?

Hon. S. Bond: In the general course of operations, if individuals or people have concerns, obviously the place that they would take those concerns would be to the Industry Training Authority — to the chair of the board and ultimately to the chief executive officer. That's not unusual or unlike public post-secondary institutions, for example.

Having said that, if there are issues concerning the legislative framework or large policy issues, those might be brought to my attention by either the authority itself or by individuals.

J. Kwan: Maybe I will be specific. There are a number of issues that the public has raised, and I wonder, in terms of these issues: would it be dealt with through the authority, or would it be dealt with by the minister?

Some of it actually relates to the changes of this act. Take, as an example, the mandate of the ITAC legislation. I'm going to quote these recommendations from the public specifically for the minister to respond to.

Under ITAC. "The mandate of the ITAC legislation be extended for at least one year, and remaining experienced staff — the system's brain trust — be maintained to ensure a measure of stability to trades training. The ITAC structures should be reinstated and spe-

That's one suggestion that's being put forward by CUPE, the B.C. division. In that instance, when those suggestions are being brought forward, would it be brought to the authority, or should it be brought to the minister for consideration?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, my ministry and I did receive a formal request to reinstate ITAC. In fact, that decision isn't one that would go to the Industry Training Authority, because I have made the decision.

The legislation on the floor of the House today represents a new model in the province. We will be moving forward on the successful passing of this legislation with a new model. At this point it is not contemplated to reinstate ITAC.

J. Kwan: What about the suggestion of governance? The recommendation from CUPE B.C. is: "Any new governance model must include equal representation from the four major stakeholder groups, including employers, labour, government and public educators. These representatives should be chosen to reflect an active involvement in and commitment to skills training and apprenticeship."

I know earlier the minister said she's received some 60 names and that it was going to be on a merit basis, but the recommendation here from the public is for there to be representation from four different sectors. Will the minister be re-contemplating that? Will the authority have the opportunity to review that matter and then, therefore, make recommendations to the minister for her consideration?

Hon. S. Bond: No, I do not intend to tie the appointment process to particular groups within the province. I have said that consistently and clearly. I want to find nine people who are visionary, who are experts and who have an incredible desire to see an improved training system in this province. We will be looking at their expertise. We will be looking at their leadership capability as we move forward with this model.

I certainly am confident that the Industry Training Authority that is appointed will work with a variety of groups across the province. As I've pointed out, they will have lots of flexibility and opportunity in determining how and who they consult with over the course of the next number of years.

J. Kwan: On the issue around public safety: "The proposed modularization of training and certification of less than fully qualified trades must be rejected. More trades must be made compulsory. There should be no reduction to the levels of qualification such as those suggested in the proposed new Safety Standards Act, as such changes will be detrimental to public safety."

Could the minister please advise how she will incorporate this act and work with the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services, who has responsibility for the public safety component, the new Safety Standards Act? How will she blend the two and address the issue that has been raised in this recommendation from CUPE?

Hon. S. Bond: Just a comment. I know it's not the main theme of the question, but in terms of modularization, that is not unique to British Columbia. It's not something we're inventing — or even reinventing, for that matter. The process is in place and working extremely effectively in a number of jurisdictions around the globe, in fact. We think we will be able to put an incredible B.C. spin on it, and it will be even better than the current systems in other countries.

Having said that, the new Safety Standards Act, which my colleague the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services recently brought through the House, will require employers to have qualified workers to do restricted work in 75 trades and occupations. The Industry Training Authority which we're debating here today will train to those standards.

There has been a great deal of collaborative work done by my staff and my colleague's staff, the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services. We intend for that to continue ministry to ministry, but we also expect that the Safety Standards Authority and the Industry Training Authority will work very closely together as we look at the issue of safety standards in the province.

J. Kwan: The other issue that CUPE has raised also include mobility, which we covered a little bit earlier today. Just for the record, I'd like to put their statement on the record. Their recommendation is for the government to "retain a training model that will allow every potential tradesperson the opportunity to secure the national Red Seal certification and that the provincial government must work with federal representatives and other provinces to increase the potential for national standards and mobility of skilled workers, rather than pursuing the current proposals, which will reduce the overall skill level and restrict mobility." I know we canvassed the issue on mobility a little bit earlier, but I do want to put their concern on the record. If the minister wants to respond to that, I will look forward to it.

I also want to put a couple of other items in terms of recommendations and whether or not these recommendations would be dealt with by the minister or dealt with through the authority.

On the issue around qualification, the recommendation is that once indentured, apprentices must be supported both by employers and by government through provision of adequate training and necessary advisory services so that they can complete their full apprenticeship training and meet the total qualifications within the specified time frame.

On the issue around the role of government, which is financing, the recommendation is that the government must continue to play a critical role in the coordination and provision of skills training. Tax-derived funding must not be turned over to the business sector, thus becoming a subsidy. The government must be accountable to the public for the long-range provision of training, based on broad public policy interest — not the narrow, shortsighted demands of employers.

On the issue around tuition costs, there must be no tuition fees or further cost increases to apprentices who have chosen to pursue a skilled trade qualification. Such increases will further discourage the needed increase in trades enrolment and be a detriment to training programs as a whole. Indeed, funding reductions for post-secondary initiatives are already negatively impacting access to ELT programs, and funding should be increased.

Finally, on the concern around equity initiatives, the government must continue initiatives put in place by ITAC to ease and promote the entry of women and minorities into non-traditional trades training, as well as provide specific assistance to first nations people wishing to enter skills training and apprenticeship programs.

Could the minister please advise on all of these items? Should they be directed to the new authority to be reviewed and looked into, or is that a policy decision that rests with the minister?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, those are certainly views that I am fully aware of, because we had consultation across the province. We received numerous responses to our website and to our discussion paper. Those are views and concerns that were taken into consideration both with the development of this legislation and with the model that is represented by the legislation on the floor today.

I am confident and very optimistic about the new model. I know that it will begin to much more reflect the needs that we have in this province and be able to respond more quickly to the changes that are necessary. I do want to point out that we have a number of pilot projects underway around the province, which will address some of the concerns that have been expressed in the issues that the member read into the record. We also have a number of pilot projects that we will be awarding in the next number of weeks, which talk about things like transition and competency-based training.

I do want to point out that as the model evolves, operational issues — issues that deal with the day-to-day operation of the new model — will absolutely be directed to the Industry Training Authority and not to the minister.

J. Kwan: Will the authority be required to set up a consultation process with the various stakeholders to ensure that there is consultation in matters and maybe, therefore, be in the position to make suggestions or recommendations to the minister for her consideration?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, I guess we're going to take a different approach to this as we move forward. I simply am not prepared to have legislation compel people to do those kinds of things. I don't think that statute compels people to consult; I think common sense does.

I think that this Industry Training Authority, composed of leaders who understand the needs of industry and who understand the needs of leaders, will consult as they see appropriate. They will design the system for consultation, and they will have their needs met through the system that they choose to use.

J. Kwan: The problem here is this: one would assume that common sense would compel people to consult. The reality is, though, that this Liberal government — this minister included — campaigned on openness and consultation and transparency, but so far the government has actually not delivered on those promises.

On the issue around the authority, in terms of the role of the authority and how consultation will be met, the minister is basically saying…. You know what? She's not putting any stipulation around consultation, and it will just be up to the authority to deal with it.

Even for this piece of legislation, consultation was lacking. It was only at the last minute that various stakeholders were actually invited to the table, and their recommendations and suggestions for the minister seem to have fallen on deaf ears. The consultation process that this minister had embarked on for this piece of legislation has fallen short.

The authority is not required to do consultation. They can do consultation if they see fit. How will the authority and therefore the minister and the ministry attempt to deal with input from the public?

Perhaps I can ask the minister this question as well. Is the minister aware that in April of 1997 an industry-sponsored survey of some 300 building contractors, the majority of whom are non-union, found that some 73 percent of building contractors think apprentices should be required to learn all facets of the trade before being granted journeyperson status?

Hon. S. Bond: Let's talk about the issue of consultation first. I want, first of all, to thank my staff for doing an extraordinary job of consulting around the province. I heard nothing but great things about how they managed during some very challenging discussions where, unfortunately, some people at those meetings were not able to express their views because they certainly weren't given that opportunity. But my staff did an extraordinary job under challenging circumstances.

To begin with, we held eight regional forums around British Columbia, and when concern was expressed that some members of the sector were not be able to actually be accommodated, we accommodated not only them but more than 700 people in eight regional forums. I would suggest that is consultation.

In addition to that, we had 165 written submissions, all of which were read and analyzed. At the end of the

day I'm fully aware of the report that the member references. My staff did an excellent job over the last year and a half of not just analyzing that report but looking at current trends and looking at opportunities.

The fact of the matter is that there has been limited growth in apprenticeship. The numbers have been static, in fact, over the last number of years. It is simply time for us to make the changes that we have represented and reflected in legislation today. We would concur that we need high-quality, absolutely excellently trained workers in British Columbia. We certainly will see the apprenticeship program continue in this province, where it's appropriate, but the responsible thing to do is look at a system and how to enhance it, and ensure we have the quality and quantity of workers that this province needs now and in the future.

J. Kwan: Maybe I can just add some other information that the minister has omitted in the process here. The consultation process that the minister has proudly said her ministry has engaged in. One of the things she's forgotten is this. At every meeting that was held, yes, there was overflowing capacity, but at every meeting some 90 percent of the participants were against the proposed changes.

It is a farce to label that process consultative. The minister, quite frankly, just didn't listen to the critiques that were made, didn't answer a single point that was made regarding the concerns that people have.

Yes, you can say you've gone out and had regional meetings. You can say you've done that process and say you've consulted. But the reality is that when people participate in that consultation process and the majority have problems with the direction that the government is going, then one would argue that the consultation process is just an empty process. It's not listening to people and addressing their concerns. I just want to make sure that is, in fact, on the record here.

I'd like to ask the minister the question around the survey I had mentioned. She seemed to not have answered the question of whether or not she's aware of that survey. I'd like the minister to comment on that, please.

Hon. S. Bond: First of all, I did clearly say that I was aware of the report. That report informed the creation of the Industry Training and Apprenticeship Commission. When we became government, one of the things we said very clearly was that we were going to look at existing structures and services and see if they were actually meeting the mandate they had been created for. In fact, as I pointed out, despite the Industry Training and Apprenticeship Commission, the number of apprentices in the province was virtually static over that period of time. Simply put, the system that was created as a result, partly, of the survey the member refers to was not reaching and fulfilling the targets and the expectations it was created for. So, yes, we're aware of it, and we are looking to a model that will see an increase not only in the number of trainees in this province but also IN the quality of those trainees.

I feel absolutely compelled to respond to the fact that 90 percent of people at the forums were not in favour. I want to point out that I received numerous e-mails and contacts. I met personally with groups of apprentices. Many people said they simply didn't even have the opportunity to express their views because there was a particular opinion expressed repeatedly by a number of people at every single forum.

I do want to point out that through the 165 written submissions we have received as a ministry, there are the following industry sectors — not individuals but sectors in this province — that have expressed positive support for the new model as outlined: the aerospace industry, the automotive and recreational vehicle retail and services industry, the heavy industry in the province, horticulture and nursery, hospitality and tourism, manufacturing, motion picture and television, power line contractors. In addition, the residential construction and independent construction components of the construction sector are in support of the new model. We have support in terms of public institutions and private trainers.

I want to make it clear, on the record, that we have significant support for a new direction for a look at how we train in this province in order to ensure we have the quality and quantity of workers we need now and in the future.

J. Kwan: The minister cites the people she says are supportive, but on the flip side of it, there are a significant number of people who are not supportive of that piece of legislation.

Is the minister aware that there's a group of 88 electrical contractors who recently signed a petition voicing their concerns with this new model?

J. Kwan: Who else has the minister received information from, who has raised concerns and objected to this new model?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, certainly it's been clear that this discussion, legislation and change always bring debate and discussion. I think that's healthy, and I think it's important.

I think it's fair to say that organized labour has been generally opposed to this change and most changes related to skills and trades training in the province. I can also say that concerns have been expressed to me by the commercial construction sector.

J. Kwan: Are those the only groups that are opposed to the legislation that the minister is aware of?

Hon. S. Bond: I think it's fair to say that these are certainly the two largest groups in terms of how I

might describe the people who have expressed concerns to me. I have met with both of those groups and sections of them on a number of occasions.

In addition, anytime you change a system, anytime you look at a new way of doing things that changes the status quo, people express concerns. So, in fact, there may well be individuals across a number of organizations and sectors that are concerned about this bill, but I can assure you of this: the significant majority of people involved in trades training as we move forward have expressed the concern that we must create a system that is flexible and responsive to the needs of industry and the needs of learners in this province.

In fact, we have support, and we are going to move forward. This is going to be an exciting opportunity for us to look at a new way of enhancing training here in British Columbia.

J. Kwan: The minister keeps saying how exciting this is and that anytime there is change, there are bound to be people who are opposed to it. The issue is this: it's not about opposing change for opposition's sake but rather raising legitimate concerns that need to be addressed. Of course, the concern people raise is to ensure that when there are changes being made, you actually do it right. Do it right so that the development is, therefore, really in the best interests of all British Columbians, and I think that's the intent here for everyone.

I hope the minister is not of the view that the people who raise the concerns are somehow just opposing it because they oppose change, because that's not the sense I have at all.

I'd like to ask the minister this question, because changes do take place from time to time. In fact, in the Bill Bennett era back in the 1980s, there was another similar experiment that was embarked on. It was called the trades access program known as TRAC, which was supposed to enable apprentices to direct their own studies at their own pace. It was a system that ended up in chaos and failure. After two years, some $35 million was wasted in spending, and TRAC was then withdrawn. I'd like to ask the minister: has she learned anything from this experience of the Bill Bennett era? I'd like to have the minister's comments on that.

Hon. S. Bond: I think it is important we learn from things that have happened in the past. Certainly, while there were challenges with TRAC, I think we should note for the record that part of what TRAC spawned was entry-level trades training, which is a significant component of the training system that exists today in the province.

One of the challenges with TRAC is that it was a classroom-based program. We're saying there needs to be a work-based component to any sort of training, and that is an important lesson that was learned. So while TRAC had some challenges, from our perspective, one of the components of the system that exists today came as a result of the TRAC system. In excess of $50 million, in fact, currently is in a system that was created through that particular initiative.

In addition to that, with regard to the comments about being willing to listen and wanting to make sure we get it right, I can absolutely agree with the member. We want to get this right. Really, one of the most discouraging parts of this discussion has been the fact that some people are simply saying: "It won't work. We don't want change. We're simply not prepared to work with you." That is very unfortunate. In fact, I continue to hope people will come and sit down and work with us as we ensure that the new model is rolled out effectively and appropriately in this province.

We are creating pilot projects around the province which will see new ways of training — opportunities for the young people of this province. You know, I am concerned when the average age of an apprentice in this province is 28 years old. We need to look at ways of encouraging and attracting young people to skills and trades training in this province. The most important thing is that the cornerstone of training in this province, the basic parameters, will continue to exist where that's appropriate.

What's been unfortunate is that often the information that has been shared simply does not line up with the information that has been presented by this government. Red Seal will continue in this province. Over and over and over again, I heard people saying that Red Seal will be discontinued in the province. That is simply not factual. It's unfortunate when that kind of rhetoric is involved in this kind of a debate.

So you're right: it is absolutely appropriate that we get this system right. That is what we're going to do. The legislation today will allow for more flexibility and choice for training in the province.

J. Kwan: Well, of the people who contacted the opposition caucus, none, in my view, have expressed an approach that would preclude them from participating and working with the ministry. The problem rests with this: the government is simply not listening to the concerns that have been raised. The government is simply putting blinders on and then rejecting those concerns, because the government is of the view that somehow, when those concerns are raised, they're opposing the new model.

When people raise concerns with respect to the new model, then there are issues with the new model. It is hoped, of course, that the government and therefore the minister would open her perspective to receive these concerns and then address them accordingly, and not just to reject the concerns outright, saying that somehow they are not intending to work with the government and have no goodwill to work with the government.

Could the minister please advise: will a trainee or apprentice be able to complete their apprenticeship in less time than it takes today? In other words, can an electrical apprentice complete in three years instead of four using the new method of testing or evaluating?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, there will be the possibility, we hope, in the future that apprentices will be able

to complete their training in lesser periods of time. I want to make it very clear that neither the standards nor the criteria will change, but potentially some of the delivery models will. For example, British Columbia, unlike many provinces in Canada, currently does not use an on-line component in any sort of training model. That's simply a technique and tool that is used across this country.

What we want to do is not look at changing the standards or the criteria, but there is the potential — and I hope it will happen — that we can shorten the amount of time. We certainly will not lessen the competency or qualifications that are required, but as technology changes, as we look at new delivery models, that potential will exist.

B. Locke: On behalf of the Minister of State for Mental Health, who is currently in the little House, I would like to introduce to the House a group of students from Princess Margaret Secondary School. They are in the chamber, and I ask that the House please make them very welcome.

J. Kwan: The minister advises that the period of time for the training may be shortened, but the competence issue would not be compromised. Is that the view of the employers? In other words, have the employers been asked if they will then hire people as competent journeypersons?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, certainly there will be variables as we look at it across trades. Some trades will be able to make that adjustment, and some won't. We recognize that. Some employers will be in favour of that and some not.

I want to point out another case example of where it's being done and how it works. In Ontario, for example, seven trades complete and write the Red Seal examination after two years. We simply cannot do that in British Columbia. That's a disadvantage both to competent workers and to employers in the province.

J. Kwan: Well, the issue around the consultation with the employers is key, because at the end of the day they are the people who will be hiring these trainees. With the authority, who's been charged with this responsibility to bring forward and enact the intentions of the model…. Could the minister please advise: is the authority required to consult with employers to ensure they agree with the plan that would be devised under this model? How will they ensure that the employers actually buy into this concept and therefore hire the trainees that would arrive as a result of Bill 34?

Hon. S. Bond: I would agree with the member that employers are absolutely key to this process. The creation of the Industry Training Authority allows employers in this province to relate directly to those people who will create the programs that are necessary to train workers. One of the things we've heard consistently is that there has tended to be a disconnect in the training models and the needs of workers and employers in the province. What we know the Industry Training Authority will do is bring employers into a key relationship with the Industry Training Authority to design training programs that meet their needs.

J. Kwan: Could the minister please advise: what is the term of the appointment, under this section, for the directors?

Hon. S. Bond: Current policy is that board members will be appointed for a term of one year and will be eligible for reappointment for two further terms of two years and three years respectively. We would hope to have those appointments staggered to ensure consistency.

J. Kwan: "In accordance with general directives of the Treasury Board" — under section 3 — "directors may be paid remuneration and must be reimbursed for all reasonable travelling and out of pocket expenses necessarily incurred in carrying out their duties." What will their salaries be?

Under 5(2): "The Public Service Act and the Public Service Labour Relations Act do not apply to the authority, its officers or its employees…."

Why do the Public Service Act and the Public Service Labour Relations Act not apply to this legislation?

Hon. S. Bond: The Public Service Act and the Public Service Labour Relations Act do not apply because this authority will be arm's length from government, and employees will not necessarily be public servants.

In addition, to the issue of compensation, I want to make it clear that the board will simply be compensated as per government policy in terms of per diem and expenses. They do not receive a salary.

J. Kwan: Arising from the minister's answer, she says the authority is at arm's length from the government, and therefore the Public Service Act and the Public Service Labour Relations Act do not apply. Yet under section 2, the authority is an agent of the government. It is stipulated under section 2(3) that the authority is an agent of the government.

How could it be that it is an agent of government, but at the same time it is not part of government?

Hon. S. Bond: The authority will be an agent of government. It is not a ministry; it is not directly related to government on a day-to-day basis — hence arm's length. It is important also that we ensure we can

meet our obligations as a government to other provinces, particularly the labour mobility chapter of the agreement on internal trade, and that relates directly to the Red Seal trades.

J. Kwan: The minister advised, and per the legislation, that the remuneration will be in accordance with the existing practice. Could the minister advise: what is that rate of per diem right now?

Hon. S. Bond: It is current Treasury Board guidelines. I don't have the specific number, but I'd be happy to get that and get it to you.

J. Kwan: Is there a differential between the chair versus the other directors?

Hon. S. Bond: Yes, in the guidelines there is a differentiation for the chair from the other members.

J. Kwan: Will there be a limitation as to how many meetings could be held and, therefore, how much of the administrative portion of the budget would be utilized towards remuneration and expenses such as travelling, etc.?

Hon. S. Bond: There are no maximum or minimum numbers of meetings, but I think we can anticipate that at the beginning of this process there will be more meetings than there will as the process unfolds. So it will be up to the Industry Training Authority to determine the needs that they have as they begin the startup of the new program and as the board begins to work together.

J. Kwan: Section 6 deals with the financial administration component of this act, and section 6 states: "At least once in every year, the accounts of the authority must be audited and reported on by an auditor appointed by the Minister of Finance." Then it goes on with the various sections, and then subsection (5) reads: "At the times specified by the minister, the authority must submit to the minister for review and approval a multi-year business plan that includes all of the following…." Then it lists four things under subsection (5).

Could the minister please advise: how will labour and industry be able to comment on the business plan?

Hon. S. Bond: We would expect that the authority would make its business plan public, as we have across government, and we would assume that as they consult, as they see fit, that would also be a public process. So we would expect them to make that plan public.

J. Kwan: Is the minister saying that the plan would be made public — would that be the draft plan that would be made public — and then it becomes finalized?

Hon. S. Bond: We'll allow the Industry Training Authority to determine how the input is garnered as they put the business plan together. The end result is that they will be expected to make the business plan public.

J. Kwan: Section 7 deals with the borrowing and deficit for the authority. It stipulates that the authority must not borrow money without the prior approval of the minister and the Minister of Finance and that the authority must not run a deficit without the prior approval of the minister and the Minister of Finance.

J. Kwan: Yes. That may be the hope and anticipation of the minister, but the question is: what if it does happen? What will happen?

Hon. S. Bond: It's not a matter of hope; it's a matter of expectation. The Industry Training Authority will be expected to present a three-year plan that represents a balanced budget. That's certainly the practice of this government, and the Industry Training Authority would be expected to use the same practice and principle.

J. Kwan: Well, even governments have instituted a mechanism to ensure that ministries do not exceed their budget, and that is a penalty that would apply to the minister responsible. Even for government there's a mechanism that is in place for ministers. So is there no mechanism in place for the authority?

Maybe I can give a further example. Maybe the CEO of the authority would be penalized with his salary or her salary if there should be a deficit. I don't know. I'm just asking the question because that's the mechanism the government has put in place for ministers.

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, I will repeat it one more time. The expectation will be that this Industry Training Authority will balance their budget. They will have a three-year plan in place as they work through those years.

The other thing is that the section we just passed, section 6, says clearly that they're not allowed to bor-

row any money. In fact, they will need to work with the dollars that they have been given, and they will be expected to present a balanced budget.

J. Kwan: It will be interesting to see what happens because, as we know, the Ministry of Children and Family Development has run into problems with its budget. In fact, they've run into problems with respect to putting children at risk, given the directive of the Minister of Finance and the Treasury Board for their ministry. As such, the ministry has to have an outside consultant come in to assist that minister in achieving their budget parameters.

It's interesting to note that you have expectations. It is the expectation of the minister for the authority to meet their budget and therefore not run into a deficit situation, but the reality is that problems do arise. As well, there may be a situation…. I may anticipate that there are insufficient dollars to meet all of the goals that the ministry has set out, and that is to increase the trainees by 10 percent, more particularly, and to increase the skilled labour force for British Columbia.

In that situation, where you don't have enough resources to do the job that needs to be done, where will the authority go? It appears that the authority has no mechanism to deal with that, because they're not allowed to run a deficit.

J. Kwan: Section 8 deals with the industry training apprenticeship, and the heading under 8 is "Powers of authority respecting training programs." Section 8(1) states: "The authority may do one or more of the following: (a) designate a training program, including a training program for a trade or an occupation, as a recognized program."

We canvassed this a little bit under the definitions section. Could the minister please advise how industry will have input in the new programs or the designations?

Hon. S. Bond: Industry will be able to come directly to the Industry Training Authority with any proposals they may have in terms of their training needs. They will also be able to present needs to the Industry Training Authority. In addition, I fully expect that the Industry Training Authority itself will engage industry on a regular basis in terms of the training programs necessary in their sectors.

J. Kwan: Subsection (b) of section 8 states: "Recommend to the minister that a training program, including a training program for a trade or an occupation, be designated as an accredited program." Could the minister please advise on whose recommendation it is based? Is it industry? Is it business? The ITA?

Hon. S. Bond: The recommendation to the minister will come from the Industry Training Authority. That will come after consultation, after analysis and after all of the excellent work that the Industry Training Authority will do. But the recommendation comes directly from the Industry Training Authority to the minister.

J. Kwan: Has there been any consideration for how this will affect the existing training system?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, our hopes and our expectations of the new model are that the system will be more responsive, more flexible, and will create more opportunities for choice for individuals. In the existing system — the Red Seal trades — as you know, the 45 will be protected under the accredited designation, and the 150-plus trades that were designated by ITAC will continue to be known as recognized trades.

J. Kwan: Is the minister anticipating that…? You know, the minister actually said there are partnerships that are being entered into with colleges and other institutions. Following in that vein, will these partnerships be tripartite agreements between the post-secondary institution, the government and the new authority?

Hon. S. Bond: The authority will establish its own partnerships. They will be partnerships between either a private trainer and the authority or public institutions and the authority. Government will not be involved in that.

J. Kwan: Are there rules and guidelines with respect to what kind of partnerships the authority could enter into, or is it just entirely up to the authority to decide?

Hon. S. Bond: The Industry Training Authority will be responsible for creating all of the regulations and criteria and presenting them to me for my approval initially. In fact, we look forward to the work that they're going to do, and they will be presenting those to the minister.

J. Kwan: So the agreements have to be approved by the minister. Now, the minister says initially the agreements have to be approved by the minister. Does that mean to say the first couple of agreements would have to be approved by the minister and then, thereafter, the authority has the power to enter into any agreement that the authority deems fit to do so?

Hon. S. Bond: I probably caused some confusion there. The criteria and standards would be recommended to the minister. Certainly, the agreements that are agreed to by the Industry Training Authority partnerships — how training models will be and relationships that will be designated — will be between the Industry Training Authority and either the trainer or the institution.

It will be criteria and standards or designation of a trade that are recommended. Those will be recommended to the minister. I apologize for the confusion.

J. Kwan: Will there be a central registration process? How will someone register to be an apprentice?

Hon. S. Bond: We are currently piloting an on-line registration program for apprentices and employers. That's a partnership, actually, between the independent contractors and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. We expect to be able to use that universally in the very near future. That is being piloted as we speak. There will be an on-line system for registering the agreements with the Industry Training Authority.

Also, I just want to bring the answer to the member concerning remuneration for board members as set out in Treasury Board directives. The amount is $350 for the chair and $250 for members.

J. Kwan: First on the amounts — $300 and $250 respectively: is that per meeting, per day?

J. Kwan: For clarification, is that $300 per day? So if you have a meeting that lasts for five days, that's $1,500?

Hon. S. Bond: It is per diem or per day. It is unlikely that the meetings would last for five days, considering some of the people that we're asking to do this task. To clarify for the member, it is per diem.

J. Kwan: There are no limitations to how many days one could meet. The costs could actually add up.

Getting back to the central registration process question. The minister advises that there's an on-line system that the government is piloting with respect to that. Is that the only registration system?

Hon. S. Bond: No. In fact, you can register through the industry training centre in Burnaby. We assume that as we move forward, you'll be able to register with the paper method with the Industry Training Authority directly as well. We think that the enhancement of being able to register on line will be a progressive step in the sector and in being able to register on line.

J. Kwan: The on-line system that's being set up. I think the minister advised that it is the independent contractors who are doing this work along with the…. I forget the other group, actually. There was another group that the minister had advised would be doing this work. Are they being paid to do this work — to set up the central pilot registration process? And if so, how much are they being paid?

Hon. S. Bond: No, the work is being done on a voluntary basis; they are not being paid. I want to repeat for the record, because I want to make sure I get the right title, that the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers is the partner with the independent contractors.

J. Kwan: Thank you for that clarification. I thought the minister meant the independent contractors association is doing this work, but that's not the case.

Okay. Now, given that there were 16 ITAC offices across the province before, which provided access to people who need support — who need to register, as an example, in the various locations — and now it's being reduced to one in Burnaby…. I appreciate that there's an on-line pilot program that has been set, but not everyone is able to access the computer system to do that work. With the reduction of the number of offices available in terms of access for people across the province, could the minister explain how one office will be able to service the entire ministry? Is the ministry anticipating there would be contracting out of other services formerly performed by these offices?

Hon. S. Bond: All right. It seems to be my afternoon for clarification. Maybe it's the hour; I'm not certain.

I do want to get this right for the record. There is a partnership piloting the on-line registration program, and the member was correct. It is the Independent Contractors and Businesses Association with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. The partnership is between those two groups. I want that clear for the record. And it is voluntary.

The reason we actually are partnering with those organizations is because the independent contractors have 400 apprentices and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers have 700. Between them, they have over 1,000 of our apprentices in the province.

In terms of the Burnaby centre, at this point in time it's the transition office. We are expecting that the Industry Training Authority will look at a combination of mechanisms for providing support to apprentices and trainees around the province. It may include on-line assistance, but it also is going to look at the use of colleges. As I pointed out earlier, we're working with a consortium of colleges. We're using the facilities available through government agents offices to provide some services. So the Burnaby centre is a transition office. We fully expect the Industry Training Authority to look at how to provide resources throughout the province as they begin their work.

J. Kwan: Is it anticipated that the colleges would also provide a point for registration?

Hon. S. Bond: It's very likely that will be a possibility, because I need to remind people that for the first time we will not simply be registering apprentices. We will also be registering trainees in the province. Many

of those trainees take their training at colleges around the province. So we believe it's very likely that colleges will be points of registration. That information would then be forwarded on to the Industry Training Authority.

J. Kwan: The pilot project on the on-line registration. The minister advises that right now nobody's being paid for that work. It is just being done on a voluntary basis. When does the minister anticipate that the pilot will be completed and therefore become a permanent program? And when it does become a permanent program, will these two organizations be paid and, if so, how much?

Hon. S. Bond: We hope to have the process up and ready to run across the province and throughout industry by the end of June.

I should point out that it's actually my staff that's done a terrific job of developing the program, creating the possibility for on-line registration. These two organizations are simply trying it out, in essence — so piloting the mechanism. They are not being paid; it is voluntary. They're using the process because of the significant number of apprentices they have, but it is actually the staff in my ministry that are trying to make this much more streamlined and effective for trainees and apprentices.

J. Kwan: Actually, that makes a difference. So it is being done in-house, then, and I would assume that once the program becomes permanent, it would still continue to be done in-house.

Hon. S. Bond: The transition would be from my staff to the Industry Training Authority, so in essence, it would move from us to the new authority.

J. Kwan: Is the authority empowered to contract out that work — or other work, for that matter?

Hon. S. Bond: It is expected that the Industry Training Authority will have contractual arrangements with all sorts of trainers. That certainly was the practice with ITAC. Other than that, there are no constraints on the authority. But certainly, as ITAC existed, with the Industry Training Authority there will be a significant number of contractual arrangements as they set up training models.

J. Kwan: In other words, they'll be free to contract out services under the ITA.

Hon. S. Bond: The Industry Training Authority will have the powers of a natural person, which means they are a corporation and will have the ability to enter into a number of contractual arrangements.

J. Kwan: The staff that were with ITAC — will they be moving on to be part of the ITA?

Hon. S. Bond: We did maintain 20 of the ITAC staff, and those staff members are working in the Burnaby centre at this point in time. We have recently extended their work period as we move through the transition with the Industry Training Authority. Each of those people has the opportunity to be placed in another government position. Having said that, it will be up to the Industry Training Authority to choose those people who will best serve their needs.

Hon. S. Bond: ITAC had a complement about a year and a half ago of 115 employees. At the end of fiscal year end this year it was 50, and we currently have 20.

J. Kwan: That's a reduction of some 95 people. For the new authority to ensure that the tasks assigned to them under sections 8 and 9 respectively under this act…. How many people does the minister anticipate the authority would hire?

Hon. S. Bond: I can't speculate, actually, in terms of the number of employees that the Industry Training Authority would require. Obviously, we're looking at doing some things very differently, including on-line registration and a number of other services in a number of different ways. So I can't speculate as to the number of employees they would require.

J. Kwan: Of course, the other component in terms of doing things differently would be the authority for the ITA to contract out the work. Therefore, perhaps much of the work would not be done in-house.

Hon. S. Bond: May I ask the member to give me some more specifics around that particular question and some detail about exactly what that question means?

J. Kwan: Under section 8, the "Powers of authority respecting training programs, (1) The authority may do one or more of the following: (a) designate a training program, including a training program for a trade or an occupation, as a recognized program; (b) recommend to the minister that a training program, including a training program for a trade or an occupation, be designated as an accredited program."

This entire section deals with training programs and the like. Will there be some parameters that would be established in terms of how training programs would be set up, how they would be accredited, how the authority would recommend to the minister that they would be accredited and be recognized, and so on?

Hon. S. Bond: The Industry Training Authority will recommend programs to the minister that they think should be accredited. They will build on existing programs. They will look at standards and criteria that are already in place, and curriculum in particular. As I pointed out earlier, that curriculum is currently on line. They will be asked to bring to the minister standards and criteria and models that are outcome-focused, and they will need to develop those within the framework of the legislation.

I would also anticipate that the Industry Training Authority would look at programs that affect a number of employers, so we want to make sure they're looking at programs of size and scope and not focusing on a particular business. We want them to look at programs of size and scope as well.

J. Kwan: Would the existing standards that are now in place be the baseline?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, at this point that is absolutely the case. We have moved the 45 Red Seal trades over to the accredited status, and we have moved all of the trades that were identified by ITAC into the recognized programs. Our hope is, actually, that we will see those trades added to.

J. Kwan: How will the authority develop and determine candidate eligibility for participation in industry training programs?

Hon. S. Bond: Currently, those standards for eligibility exist in all training programs, and we want to ensure that new trainees are successful. There are existing standards for eligibility, and those are in place, and we don't expect those to change.

J. Kwan: Will the eligibility be added to or deleted from the existing system by the new authority?

Hon. S. Bond: Two things about that. Certainly, we would expect the Industry Training Authority to evaluate candidate eligibility if they think that has been a barrier or a hindrance to success. We would expect them to evaluate the existing eligibility requirements. The only other way that would see a significant change in eligibility would be the competency process, where we would determine a set of measurements and standards. If a learner could meet those standards, they would be eligible to move to a particular level in a program. That doesn't exist in the system today.

J. Kwan: Are there going to be minimum standards for examinations, assessments and services?

Hon. S. Bond: Absolutely. We do not intend to water down or dilute the standards. We want to ensure that we continue to have a highly qualified and trained workforce.

Hon. S. Bond: It will be the responsibility of the Industry Training Authority to demonstrate to the minister that the standards remain high and that we ensure there are absolutely high-quality standards in place in the province.

J. Kwan: That doesn't really answer the question. Maybe I'll ask the question in a different way. Will the minister have to approve all new training standards?

J. Kwan: Is the objective of this new model to modularize the entire system?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly not to modularize the whole system. We want to take advantage of new techniques and new models across the system. Where it works, that's where we intend to do that.

We also want to look at laddering. We want to look at credentials. We want to allow the learners of this province to build on their successes and add to their skill sets in order to give them pathways to certification.

J. Kwan: Under what circumstances will the new trainee agency suspend or cancel an industry training credential?

Hon. S. Bond: If credentials were obtained in a fraudulent way, if they misrepresented information — those kinds of things — the authority would have the ability to take back that credential.

J. Kwan: What about the reassessment? Would there be some instances where an individual will have to be reassessed to determine whether or not the person actually has the skill level to be credentialed?

Hon. S. Bond: I believe that is a possibility. The Industry Training Authority will be developing, obviously, regulation and operational practice around that. But for example, the safety authority may require a requalification at some point, so there may indeed be times when a worker or a trainee needs to be reassessed.

Hon. S. Bond: They would enter into an agreement with the Industry Training Authority that would be based on recommendations and needs of industry and learners. A proposal would come forward, and the Industry Training Authority would enter into an agreement with a particular trainer or public institution.

J. Kwan: The minister said the proposals would come forward. If a private company wants to put forward a proposal for consideration by the ITA, they would simply forward a proposal. Or a college or institution — likewise, they would just follow that process. There won't be a call for proposals, but rather there are just one-off proposals that will come forward. Will the ITA just take them as they come in for consideration?

Hon. S. Bond: That's a good question. We expect the Industry Training Authority to operate in a very businesslike manner. They may choose to use a particular time frame for a request for proposals, or it may be ongoing intake. Certainly, at the beginning they have to set up those processes and do it in the most efficient way possible. That's a good question. We do intend for people to be able to come to the Industry Training Authority with their ideas, with their partnerships, with their needs and for the Industry Training Authority to determine how to effectively meet those training needs. The actual operational details will be worked out by the Industry Training Authority, but it will include dialogue on a regular basis and the opportunity for trainers and institutions to present ideas to the authority.

J. Kwan: Is there an optimal number of trainers that the ITA will be looking at?

Hon. S. Bond: No, there isn't, and that would be very difficult to predict. At this point, certainly, the answer to that would be no.

J. Kwan: What mechanisms would be in place to ensure that this new model would not lead to deskilling of the workforce?

Hon. S. Bond: There are a number of mechanisms we've already alluded to in this discussion: the existence and continuing presence of the current model, the apprenticeship system as it exists today, the protection of the Red Seal trades which will be accredited in this province. We will look at high standards being set by the Industry Training Authority. We do not intend to dilute or minimize the standards in any way. In fact, any new trades that are suggested for accreditation will have to have ministerial approval and will have to demonstrate a high standard. Certainly, the qualifications that exist in this province are of a high standard, and we intend to continue that.

Hon. S. Bond: The process will be developed by the Industry Training Authority working in close collaboration with industry, with learners and certainly with educators and trainers in the province.

J. Kwan: Under subsection 8(1)(c), which reads, "develop programs of training and apprenticeship and program standards for the purposes of paragraphs (a) and (b)," could the minister please advise how journeypersons, apprentices and industry will give input towards these standards?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, we have two systems in place already that work well, and we intend to use those and enhance them. Every college must have a program advisory board. That is made up of a number of people who provide advice to those colleges.

Then, of course, there are joint boards, which are partnerships between employers and journeypeople — in fact, tradespeople. They will still be able to provide advice through those two particular groups and then have access through the process to the Industry Training Authority.

J. Kwan: Sub-subsection (d), as well, allows for the determination and development of those who would be deemed to be qualified candidates that would be eligible for participation in industry training programs funded by the authority. Could the minister please advise who will develop the processes and how the eligibility will be determined? I know that in this act it says the authority would do that, but what are the specifics that would apply in determining this process?

Hon. S. Bond: I guess the best way to address that is sort of as a group. All of these processes will be processes that will require the Industry Training Authority to develop them, so I can't speculate as to what that process will look like.

As I did point out, there are candidate eligibility requirements in place for all programs today. Those will continue. As the Industry Training Authority develops its practices and operational procedures, that is one of the things it will be developing.

J. Kwan: What safeguards are in place to prevent educational institutions from controlling the training needs of employers?

Hon. S. Bond: There will not be a monopoly on training in this province. We believe that the best programs, the best providers and the best trainers will be the ones selected to provide for both industry's needs and learners in the province.

I do want to point out that our public institutions have an excellent reputation, but there are excellent private trainers as well. We fully believe that the program that is the highest quality and meets the needs of both industry and learners will be the successful trainer in the province.

J. Kwan: The minister keeps on saying there are a variety of institutions that would be excellent trainers. It appears so far, though, in all of the questions I've posed to the minister, that she has not put forward anything specific to speak to how to ensure that level of standards is being met and what the procedures would be, other than to just have a big leap of faith that somehow the authority will achieve these goals.

I have a lot of concerns around that, because from this piece of legislation and from the answers from the minister, it isn't clear. And there really aren't a lot of assurances, other than the minister saying: "Don't worry. These things will be dealt with in due course by the authority." And I have no comfort from that.

In a similar vein but on a different aspect of the training, if satisfied that an individual has completed training or apprenticeship in another program or jurisdiction that is equivalent to completed training in an industry training program, authorize a training institution or trainer to award an industry training recognition credential…. What criteria are in place to determine how and what standards to use to award equivalency? Will testing be part of the procedure? How will employers participate?

Hon. S. Bond: I want to go back just briefly to the comments about looking at who's going to train and how and why we are not sort of laying that out. I think we have a fundamental difference in approach — that wouldn't be surprising — but we actually believe that our legislation should empower the authority. It should allow them to make choices and decisions about how to offer training in this province without being told who or how that should happen. We think experts in the field are the best people to make those determinations. We do believe, though, that they should be held accountable and achieve results, which is why we have the three-year business plan and the expectation that they would deliver results.

In terms of the question of recognizing skill sets and competency, what we hope for, actually, is to look at what happens in the Red Seal, which means that if you are designated and earn a Red Seal in one province, we accept that in British Columbia. In other words, if you receive a certification or an accreditation for a particular skill set in another province, we accept that as part of the Red Seal program in British Columbia. We'd like to see that other trades have the same opportunity so that if you receive particular training or qualification in another province, we would like to have that recognized in B.C.

J. Kwan: Red Seal is one measure, and that's a national standard that would apply. For other measures that don't provide for a national standard, the question is: will testing be part of the procedure in establishing equivalency?

Hon. S. Bond: Well, there has been discussion across provinces for years about how to recognize skill sets. The Red Seal is certainly the template, as I pointed out. What we want to be able to do is fairly simple. We want to be able to recognize competency. We simply believe that in some cases examinations may be required. The other aspect of this is that if a province has a particular trade designation that is very similar to the one in British Columbia, and accreditation is received in that province, we want to have the discussion about whether or not we can recognize that skill set in British Columbia. We need those workers. We know that they're skilled and trained in another province. We simply want to be able to look at recognizing that certification.

J. Kwan: Yes, we would want to be able to do that. The question is: what is the process that would be in place to do that? The minister said that, yes, testing will be a component for some of it. Testing will be a component for which trades, for example? I'd just like to seek some clarity on that.

Hon. S. Bond: Testing and measurement of skill sets are certainly a part of all trades, and this would be no different. We simply want to be able to recognize the competency, and I know the member has already suggested she understands that.

In terms of the actual specific processes, it's new, and we are expecting the Industry Training Authority to develop the processes as the model evolves. We're simply saying that the principle behind it — the public policy thinking behind it — is that competency and recognizing it are important. It's a way to increase the number of trained workers we have in this province without simply focusing on a time-based model.

J. Kwan: I guess the issue that I have is how to ensure that competency is actually met. How do you measure competency? I suppose the minister is going to rise and say that it will be up to the authority to determine what that procedure is — and hence the problem here. A lot of the questions I'm asking of the minister…. The minister is simply advising that the authority will provide that information in due course. We are actually dealing with a piece of legislation that gives passage to these big changes, yet we don't know what the ramifications might be with this piece of legislation. Therefore, it's problematic in that regard.

The minister also stated that she fundamentally believed in a different approach, and that is to say the authority should be empowered with the authority to act under a variety of different areas. The minister, at the same time, also mentioned and consistently recognized her staff — her excellent staff, as she puts it — in terms of the work that they have done. Surely, the staff that are being recognized…. I have no doubt that they do good work. Perhaps the work and the powers that are being given to the authority, which are now being taken away from the staff of the ministry, really beg the question: if they were actually excellent — and they are — why don't we just give them the authority to do the

Anyway, it is a fundamental difference in terms of approaches, but it is interesting to see and note the contradictions from the minister herself.

Will the current law that requires a journeyman to train apprentices be changed?

Hon. S. Bond: No, it will not. As a matter of fact, I would assume and expect that apprentices would be mentored by journeypeople as they are now.

I want to give an example of the competency-based training and how exams might work in the process. It's easy to talk about theory, but I want to make sure that people understand that it's actually a very simple, practical thought about how you measure a person's competency.

One of the pilots projects we have currently in place in Kamloops is a cook's training program. Typically it would take four years; we're hoping to look at new methods of shortening the time to three. But let me give you an example of a competency-based exam. These apprentices will be expected to plan and prepare a full meal. That's probably pretty sensible, considering they're going to be working in places where that's exactly what they're going to do. They will do that. They will be examined by a panel of chefs.

In previous years it has taken people years to be able to be licensed. We know that using this system and the model that's being tested in Kamloops would allow that to occur much more quickly. It will be a competency-based exam and one that I think is extremely practical and very reasonable.

J. Kwan: Well, that's one example. But in the minister's response in terms of setting standards that I was asking about earlier, she mentioned that examinations would be used only in some cases. Therefore, when examinations are used, there would be a baseline that has to be met. In cases where it isn't, that's when I think you run into problems. The minister is not able to actually identify which trades would be required to undergo an examination process and which trades would not.

Again, there are a lot of questions. It's okay to draw one example and say: "Well, gee, that is working really well." But the reality is that there are many different trades that would fall under this act, and we have no clarity on the application of setting the standards under this act for the different trades and different people.

Section 8(1) states: "The authority may do one or more of the following…." Sub (o) says: "…enter into industry training agreements with trainees." Could the minister please advise: are employers responsible for apprentices, in their own employ, in terms of liability issues?

Hon. S. Bond: The employee-employer relationship remains in place, and nothing will change in that process.

J. Kwan: This is a broader question, and that is…. The Ministry of Advanced Education has given away its authority to maintain training standards that are now under the new Safety Standards Act. Could the minister please advise why they did that? It would seem to me that it makes sense to retain all of that under the same umbrella.

Hon. S. Bond: In fact, we haven't given over our authority over training standards. The Industry Training Authority will continue to maintain authority over training standards. The Safety Standards Authority will have authority over safety standards. That makes incredibly good sense. In addition to that, the Industry Training Authority will then ensure that training is done to the safety standards set by the Safety Standards Authority.

J. Kwan: The minister didn't answer the question, though. Anyway, I'm just going to set it aside. I suppose I could keep on asking, and the answers wouldn't be forthcoming.

Could the minister please advise how the costs are going to be allocated after the pilot projects are done?

Hon. S. Bond: Sorry, we're a bit puzzled. Can you clarify what costs you're referring to?

J. Kwan: I was just going to do that. I'm sorry. I am jumping. Actually, this question that staff has sent in just came from the public. Often it's the case, when people watch the debate, that they actually phone in to our office with questions to be asked of the minister.

The minister was referring to the Kamloops situation as a pilot project. The related question is: how are costs going to be allocated after the pilot projects are completed?

Hon. S. Bond: We set aside $750,000 for the 16 pilot projects that are looking at competency-based assessment. The Kamloops project is one of those. There were 16 of them in that budget allocation, and each proposal had to bring with it, obviously, the costs.

Should those proposals be deemed as something we can replicate across the province and use as part of the new model, the Industry Training Authority would make decisions about how and where to offer that program. The dollars would then be allocated out of the Industry Training Authority budget if the process and the project would be expanded for use around the province.

J. Kwan: The pilot projects that were put in place. Was there a proposal call for these pilots?

J. Kwan: Is it anticipated that once these pilot projects are completed, then proposal calls would also be

put out by the new authority — the ITA — to solicit groups, companies, institutions or whatever to bid on the proposal to continue on the tasks?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, we anticipate that may be one of the mechanisms that they use. It would certainly be a process where people have the opportunity to respond or make representation of their interest to the Industry Training Authority. I just don't want to limit it to a specific proposal call, for example, of a certain number of weeks. It may be a longer intake period, but yes, we would anticipate the authority would request and look at opportunities for people to participate.

J. Kwan: Would it be the case that the people who are currently doing the pilots would automatically assume the contract, or would it be opened for tendering?

Hon. S. Bond: There would be no assumption of that nature, because what we're trying to do is, you know, as people suggest we're moving forward without giving it thought…. What we wanted to do was test some principles, test some projects in practice. Should this be a model that we think would be effective across the system, we would then look at how that could be replicated.

This would simply be a proposal that would be used as a template for training. There wouldn't be an assumption that that particular project would just be continued on in that particular place.

J. Kwan: The requirement for tendering. Would the application of guidelines that are now governing government for the tendering process be applied to the ITA?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, this is a government that supports open tendering, and we would expect the Industry Training Authority to reflect that practice as well.

J. Kwan: The base amount — or minimum amount, I should say — for the requirement of tendering would therefore be the same as what is being applied for government?

Hon. S. Bond: We would certainly expect that it would, but I'll get clarification just so we can give you some certainty around that.

J. Kwan: Yes. I would expect the answer to be yes. If the minister could advise accordingly and also give us the baseline amount so that we know what it is.

J. Kwan: Under section 9 it deals with the duties of authority respecting trainees. Section 9(1) reads: "In respect of trainees, the authority must do all of the following: (a) maintain a registry of trainees, industry training agreements and training records for trainees according to their category of training."

Hon. S. Bond: We expect that information to come from institutions and trainers, and the Industry Training Authority will be the coordinator of that information.

J. Kwan: Does the trainee have an appeal process if they're withdrawn from the program?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, we think that the trainee would have the opportunity through the public institution or the trainer — because there are obviously procedures in place there — and also may have recourse through the Industry Training Authority as well.

J. Kwan: Section 10 deals with the appeal board. Will the minister ensure that the appeal board represents labour, education and business sectors?

Hon. S. Bond: No. What I will ensure is that the appeal board is set up using people of expertise and the best people for the job.

J. Kwan: In a similar vein, the arguments I've put forward around the appointments to the authority…. Once again, one would assume that you would be able to have broad representation from all the different sectors while ensuring that the people are skilled to do that job. One is not mutually exclusive of the other. It's unfortunate that the minister would not ensure that there's broad representation in that regard.

Mr. Chair, we canvassed section 11 broadly and extensively earlier, under the definitions section. I'm ready to go to section 12.

J. Kwan: Section 12 deals with the power to make regulations. "The minister may make regulations referred to in section 41 of the Interpretation Act." Will employers have input on the development of new regulations? What process will be in place for the development of regulations?

Hon. S. Bond: Certainly, in any regulations I would intend to make, I would seek out a variety of opinions

and views and perspectives. That's responsible, and I certainly would intend to do that.

J. Kwan: "Without limiting subsection (1), the minister may make regulations as follows." Subsection (2) reads: "(a) defining a word or phrase used but not defined in this Act; (b) designating a program as an accredited program." Will the existing accreditation rules have to be satisfied by a program before the designation is given?

Hon. S. Bond: The existing accredited programs consist of the 45 Red Seal trades. They will be accredited — there was no further requirement there — and any new programs that are recommended for accreditation will be presented to the minister by the Industry Training Authority.

J. Kwan: Sub-subsection (e) reads: "recognizing a credential awarded for a specified training or apprenticeship program in another province or other jurisdiction as equivalent to an industry training credential." We talked about equivalency earlier, and we talked about Red Seal programs and so on. I guess I just want to make sure that on the flip side, while we recognize other jurisdictions' credentials in terms of the process the minister had laid out…. Do we have any assurances from other jurisdictions that they'll be recognizing British Columbia's programs and that therefore it is reciprocal? That is to say, when we recognize their programming, will they do the same for us?

Hon. S. Bond: It is an ongoing process of dialogue, and certainly other provinces work with us as we look at equivalency both to and from British Columbia. It is a priority of my ministry, because labour mobility is important. We do continue to have regular dialogue about mobility, and we recognize and look at consistency and comparability between trades with a number of provinces.

J. Kwan: Section 13 simply reads: "Section 5 of the Offence Act does not apply to this Act." Could the minister please clarify for me?

Hon. S. Bond: This is standard practice to include this, and it is no change from the previous Industry Training and Apprenticeship Act.

J. Kwan: Section 24 simply repeals the Industry Training and Apprenticeship Act in its entirety. A couple of quick questions for the minister — or perhaps not so quick, depending on her response.

Is there any part of this legislation that's worth keeping? Are there any gaps in this legislation — that is, Bill 34 — that the minister could see?

Hon. S. Bond: There are parts of the Industry Training and Apprenticeship Act that will need to be retained during the transition period, but once we move through transition, this act will supersede the other one in its entirety.

Hon. S. Bond: I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment.

Committee of Supply A, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Bill 34, Industry Training Authority Act, reported complete without amendment, to be considered at the next sitting of the House after today.

R. Hawes: I have a couple of questions for my colleague from Surrey–Green Timbers, who couldn't be here. She's in another meeting. I'll start with those.

Can the minister explain the comparisons between infection rates for hep C and HIV in the South Fraser and other health regions? I'm not sure if you have that kind of comparison.

Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm not sure that we have that detailed comparison for you right here, but I will commit to getting it for the member.

R. Hawes: Another question my colleague from Surrey–Green Timbers wants to ask is: does the minister know why rates are so high in the South Fraser? They're very, very high there, and they are growing at a very rapid rate. Is there any specific reason she's aware of for this growth in infection rates in South Fraser?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I have the provincial health officer, Dr. Kendall, giving me some information here that the member might be looking for. The constituency, the Frasers, does have the second-highest HIV rate — 20 percent of the infections in that region and Vancouver has 60 percent — when we compare it across the province. They are the second highest.

I don't know what other information the member was looking for. Oh, sorry; I remember. It was why they are so high. The provincial health officer tells me there is a large degree of injection drug use in that area.

R. Hawes: I'm going to paraphrase one of my colleague's questions. I know it surrounded funding that's being put forward by the health regions to address the problem. I think she's under the understanding that other health regions have devoted some specific funding towards both the hep C and the HIV problems. Perhaps the same funding commitment has not come from South Fraser. I'm not sure if that's so, but could the minister comment on that?

Hon. S. Hawkins: Obviously, this is a concern. I know the provincial health officer is working on a report on HIV/AIDS in B.C., and he's working on giving us advice on strategic directions to take. My understanding is that the report is going to be released in the next few weeks — in the next month or so. We'll certainly be looking at the recommendations and the advice of the provincial health officer around that.

I also understand the needle exchange program in the Fraser is not as up to snuff, I guess, as it could be. The regions are looking at that. The regional health authorities are working to address that. I can tell you I don't have the exact dollar figures for what resources are spent in the different regions around that. Perhaps that could be addressed to the Minister of Health Services in his estimates. They might have that information at a later time for you.

The provincial health officer is very aware of this issue and is working on a report. We look forward to getting the advice and recommendations.

R. Hawes: I'm assuming that report would also deal with hep C as well as HIV and AIDS.

R. Hawes: Mr. Chair, just to clarify, that wasn't a question; it was a statement. I wasn't quite sure that it did.

The last question the member for Surrey–Green Timbers asked me to ask on behalf of her constituents — I'm sure it's because she's very concerned that in her riding, she knows there's a problem with the spread of both hep C and HIV — is: what are the best practices in reducing infection rates or the spread of these diseases? She can pass that on to her constituents; I'm sure that's why she wants the question asked.

Hon. S. Hawkins: Certainly, the best practices are at least fourfold. They include education, harm reduction, prevention and treatment: education in making the public aware of risk factors and how to prevent getting the disease; with harm reduction for those that have the disease, how they can prevent themselves from exposing others or getting into more trouble themselves. It certainly includes treatment for those people who are exposed.

With all of these, certainly, law enforcement is important as well. We need to have good law enforcement for areas where there is illicit drug use. We have to make sure that's in place, as well, to support some of these other approaches.

R. Hawes: I have a couple of questions of my own, and they surround scope of practice. I know that's something the minister is looking at. The first one really has to do with optometrists versus opticians. I'm sure the minister is quite familiar with the push and pull that's going on there around eye testing by opticians. I'm not looking for the answer. I'm just curious if that's going to be included in the scope-of-practice discussions — a solution to the problem as to whether opticians should be able to give eye tests. Would that be something that would be considered here?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I think the member knows we have been doing consultations around scope of practice and around the sight-testing issue he is raising. We had a draft regulation that went out to all the colleges, and we got input back from it last fall, I believe. The ministry is looking at that draft regulation, and I am working on the advice of my staff to see how we move to resolve this issue. I know there's some tension between

the two professions dealing with this, and hopefully, in the next few weeks or few months — I hate to put a time line on it — we can resolve that and come up with a decision that is in the patients' best interests.

R. Hawes: I had one other question surrounding optometrists. I guess the best way to explain it would be…. Perhaps the minister could tell me if I'm correct in my assumptions. The way I've been told is that, for example, if I go to my GP for a checkup and he takes a cursory look in my eyes and notices something, he'll give me a referral, likely, to an optometrist. When I go to that optometrist, that's when it becomes a bit strange. He may find something, and he will suggest a prescription to solve whatever the problem is, but he'll send me back to my GP to write the prescription because I gather that in this province, the optometrists can't write prescriptions. I think we're one of the only provinces in the country that doesn't allow optometrists to write prescriptions.

This may be in the scope-of-practice discussions you're having, but it just seems strange to me. It seems like such a no-brainer that if everywhere else they can write prescriptions, it would save considerable time and money and inconvenience for patients. I'm wondering if consideration is being given now to giving optometrists the right to write prescriptions for some of these eye problems.

Hon. S. Hawkins: Yes, that will be in the scope-of-practice review. As you know, we introduced legislation earlier today that brings amendments to the Health Professions Act and implements a new reserved actions model of defining scopes of practice. The ability to prescribe certain therapeutics by optometrists will certainly be in those consultations later this year when we look at who gets different reserved actions.

P. Nettleton: Looking over the estimates in the service plan — that is, the interim service plan — it is clear why this ministry, the ministry before us, is referred to as the Ministry of Health Planning. It's because there's a whole lot of planning going on.

I'll devote my time today, if I may, to going through a few of the planning items that the ministry oversees with an aim to fleshing out some of the detail. I thank you in advance for your time in allowing me to do just that. I do recall the member, now minister, some years ago having assisted me on a number of occasions with respect to health care issues and having been of great assistance to me. I'll keep that in mind, as well, in terms of the tone and tenor of my questions and comments.

The service plan talks about developing a number of things including quality standards, access standards, prevention and performance measures, a human resources plan or strategy, a hospital facility plan, an intermediate and long term care facilities plan, a medical machinery and equipment plan, an information technology plan, a rural and remote health initiative, an electronic health record, an accountability and performance management strategy, and so on. These might all be very important and necessary things to work on and plan for, but my question is: since the ministry was created in 2001, how is it that we're still making a list of things to study, especially when it comes to things like selecting priority services?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I want to make sure you've got the service plan that we tabled yesterday, because the interim service plan was tabled with the budget February 18 and was pending the federal funding. The federal funding did come through. We tabled supplementary estimates and then two new service plans for the Ministries of Health Planning and Health Services. If you need a copy, I'd be happy to provide you with one.

P. Nettleton: Thank you. I do not, but in any event, that would be most helpful.

Let's start with articulating quality standards. What might be some examples of quality standards? Are there presently quality standards in place that need to be replaced?

Hon. S. Hawkins: Certainly, our health authorities in their performance agreements…. We have standards for them to start developing. Some of the quality standards we're working on right now are with respect to emergency rooms. We're doing an emergency room review, and we're asking the health authorities to develop standards around best practices for emergencies.

We're also working around a surgical wait-list review. I know the interior health authority has already announced they're doing that. They're looking at what kinds of resources are available — in so far as equipment, capital, providers — how surgical wait-lists are measured, who's waiting and how long. They are doing that complete survey right now. They announced it, and I believe Johnson and Johnson is the company that's doing that consulting for the interior health authority. Each of the health authorities, including the provincial health services authority, is going to be doing that as well.

We're also working to develop best practices around mental health. I know the Minister of State for Mental Health has been doing a lot of work around addictions. Certainly, the UBC group MHECCU has been quite involved with the minister of state around that as well.

P. Nettleton: That's helpful. With respect to these quality standards, then, will they be applied evenly across the province, or will there in fact be regional variations of these standards?

Hon. S. Hawkins: The member is absolutely right to ask that question, because when we're setting stan-

dards, that's what we're looking for. We're looking for consistency. If you recall, we did announce access standards for emergency, for acute care and for hospital services. That was last year. That was to make sure the health authorities were all working from the same page as far as providing access to those services in their regions.

I'm sure the member appreciates that when you are trying to apply standards and make them consistent, it does take some time, especially when you're trying to apply standards for clinical practice, because patterns of practice are different. This is exactly what we're trying to do — make sure there is consistency across the regions when we are applying these quality standards.

P. Nettleton: I think it's clear, then, that in fact those standards will apply across the province and, indeed, that there will not be regional variations.

The ministry is also involved in developing access standards. Do access standards presently exist? What might some of these standards be?

Hon. S. Hawkins: These were the standards I had mentioned to the member that we announced last January, I believe it was. Those were the access standards that we asked the health authorities, I believe it was last April, to apply when they were doing their regional review of acute care services. We actually set these. For emergency service, we said the access will be provided to emergency services on a 24-7-52 basis within a one-hour travel time for 98 percent of residents within the region. The standard for health service delivery areas is 95 percent right now.

For acute in-patient services we said that the access to basic in-patient hospital services will be available within two hours' travel time for 98 percent of residents within the region and 95 percent of the population for each health service delivery area. For specialty services, patients would have to be able to access core specialty services within four hours' travel time for 98 percent of residents in the region and 95 percent of the population of each health service delivery area.

These are all on the Web. They were posted and they were announced, and as the health authorities are doing their redesign, these standards must be met.

G. Trumper: I have one question. Many times I am asked the question as to what the correlation is between what you're doing in the Ministry of Health Planning…. What is the relationship between that and the health authorities when they're dealing with their budgets and we're putting in place more nurses for training, more doctors, physicians, etc.? Can you outline to me the relationship between what you're doing and the health authorities?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I think that is a very good question. What this ministry does is set the policy and direction. With the health authorities we help by looking at the needs they identify and by helping them meet their needs.

Right now we know that many of the health authorities have identified the need for more nurses, more physicians, more techs and perhaps certain kinds of equipment or resources. What we try to do is work with them to look over the long term, assess what those needs will be and start filling in some of those spaces. We work with them very closely.

I know that the ministry's health planners are working very closely. We have a health planner identified in each of the regions. They do meet. They work together. We look at planning for the long term to make sure that resources and dollars are appropriately used so that we're getting the best bang for the dollar that is in the health authority's budget. We're also making sure we're planning for the long term and not just the short term.

P. Nettleton: With respect to the access standards, which I now know had been announced last January…. They're on the Web, so now I'm current. With respect to those standards, just a question. I think I know the answer.

In any event, are there regional variations with respect to those standards that are posted, or not? I expect there are not, but I wanted to confirm that.

Hon. S. Hawkins: Every one of those communities meets the standards we've set. Those were the standards that were posted on the Web. As they're doing their redesign, the standards have to be met, and there are guidelines that have to be met. Some of the communities in some of the regions are actually exceeding those standards.

P. Nettleton: The Ministry of Health Planning is also working on crafting an information technology plan. In brief, what might this plan look like once it is complete?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I wanted to make sure I clarified something. I think I said "every community." I meant that every health authority is meeting those standards, and some are exceeding them.

Hon. S. Hawkins: Certainly, the major initiatives as far as the IT plan, the long-term plan, are highlighted in the service plan. Some of the major initiatives and projects that make up our IT plan looking forward in the next ten, 15, 20 years include strategic and tactical information management–information technology planning.

We're working with the health authorities through the Health CIOs Council. That's a council of CIOs from all the health authorities. They are establishing and im-

plementing a unified information management–information technology vision, a set of strategies and collaborative mechanisms to advance e-health objectives.

Certainly, this will support the delivery of health care and the sustainability of the health care system. We're working on an electronic health record. We're working on network harmonization. The member is probably aware, because he's got several different kinds of communities with clinics and hospitals and everything, that you just know there are legacy systems out there. Not everyone is on the same computer system, so there is all that kind of work being prepared to try and bring all of that together.

The electronic medical summary is a program that is sponsored by the Health CIOs Council, and it is funded by the primary health care transition fund. The project will provide key patient information to authorize primary care providers to assist with shared care of patients, another thing that is very important as we move ahead in our primary care renewal.

We are working on a unique client identification project as well. That is a key building block for the electronic health record client registry services to enable accurate, consistent and unique identification of clients. We're also working on a provider registry, and we've got a few of those already on the Web. Again, physicians and health care providers find those very, very helpful.

We also have a health information standards project, and B.C. has been recognized as a leader in establishing standards for health information–sharing and systems interoperability. Some of the B.C. standards have been adopted by other jurisdictions. We have a common authentication project as well, where the health ministries, the health authorities and other publicly funded agencies share a need to electronically deliver information to health care providers. This project will identify critical requirements among the stakeholders. It will review options, seek industry comments and offer a solution through public tender that will serve the health sector's need for strong multifactor authentication credentials.

I think the member is aware that this ministry is working on chronic disease management strategies, and that is very much part of our information technology plan over the ten, 15, 20 years as well.

P. Nettleton: One final question from me with respect to the information technology plan. Is this information technology plan something that, down the road, may involve outsourcing?

Hon. S. Hawkins: Through the federal government and our partnership with Canada Infoway we do partner with the private sector, and we will have to partner with the private sector to help deliver some of these services. Currently, we also have private sector partners who help us deliver these services.

P. Nettleton: That wasn't really what I was thinking. I'm going to move, shortly, into private sector involvement. I'm thinking in terms of existing services, the outsourcing of services that are currently provided within the ministry being moved to the private sector. That's more what I'm wondering.

Hon. S. Hawkins: For the member's information, our IT supports from the ministry have moved to the Ministry of Management Services. They provide the ministry with that support.

If the member's asking about health benefits operations and whether those might be outsourced, I know there is a review currently being undertaken by the Minister of Health Services, and it might be more appropriate to ask him specifically about where that's at. I know it's not completed yet, but we are looking at alternative ways to improve services.

With respect to private sector involvement, it's my understanding that the Ministry of Health Services intends to devise a regulatory framework to support private sector involvement in capital financing in selected areas of service delivery. I'm just wondering what factors will be considered in crafting such a regulatory framework.

Hon. S. Hawkins: We do have a policy framework that we developed. It is on the website. It's the patient service delivery policy framework. It was delivered to all the health authorities last October.

When the member says he's asking for what criteria we use when we're looking at involvement of the private sector in health care service delivery, we are certainly looking at…. The objectives are to improve patient access to necessary care and to enhance choice within the health authority on where services may be received. We want to make sure that we realize the benefits of competition in the public system to improve efficiency and contain costs. We want to make sure we're maintaining a sustainable public health care system through improved access to innovation and efficiency.

Certainly, when the health authorities are looking to involve the private sector, we want to make sure, first of all, that they're abiding by the Canada Health Act. We're committed to the principles under the Canada Health Act. We want to make sure there is a good business case. We want to make sure we're getting value for the dollar that's being spent. We want to make sure there's incremental value coming out of that relationship. That is all addressed in the policy framework, and it is on the Web, if the member's interested in having a look.

P. Nettleton: With respect to this regulatory framework, how does this framework relate to the existing Vancouver General Hospital ambulatory care centre and the Abbotsford Hospital and Cancer Centre? I'm assuming — perhaps rightly, perhaps wrongly; I'm sure the minister will correct me if I'm wrong…. Is

it acceptable that these projects in both Vancouver and Abbotsford were given the green light by government before the regulatory framework for private sector involvement was worked out?

Hon. S. Hawkins: If the member recalls, I think it was in February 2002, we passed Bill 29. Bill 29 certainly gave authority to the health authorities to look at P3 options. The regulatory framework I was referring to was a patient services delivery model for alternatives to delivering patient services. That was in October of the same year, so that came later. The regulatory framework for the P3 projects the member is talking about came out of Bill 29, which was passed in February 2002. Those projects were announced after that.

P. Nettleton: That makes sense. Would the minister be able to give any idea with respect to similar P3 projects that now may be in the works, such as the private hospital in Abbotsford?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I do have some examples, and I think the member probably knows most of them, because they've been announced. Some are in the planning stages, and I'm not able to mention them because they may or may not be announced. The ones the member is aware of, certainly, are MSA Hospital in Abbotsford and the academic ambulatory care facility at VGH — I just want to make sure. They're not private hospitals; they're P3s; they're public-private partnerships. The asset is owned by the private sector, but they're publicly funded. It's very important to make sure. The services within that facility will be publicly funded.

The assisted-living residential care projects around the province that the health authorities are getting involved in, again, are P3s. They might be through non-profits; they might be through other partners. I'm reminded that many of the residential care facilities that are funded around the province and have always been around are P3 projects.

P. Nettleton: Moving along, if I may, to another topic, B.C. has a provincial health officer, which I expect might be a busy position now with all of the efforts in and around SARS. I see that this person's budget is as large as it is for all of Health Planning. It is my understanding that the provincial health officer, under the Health Act and according to the service plan, can do, in part, a number of things — identify a need for legislation, a need for a change in policy, a need for a change in practices, or develop major provincial strategies. I'm just wondering if the Ministry of Health Planning does in fact work in tandem on these items with the provincial health officer.

Hon. S. Hawkins: The provincial health officer is an independent officer and a very valuable resource for this government, for this province. He has a huge responsibility in monitoring and reporting on the health status of our population. Certainly, my thanks go to him and all of our other public health officials and the BCCDC for the incredible job they did in containing and monitoring the SARS health risk that the member just mentioned.

It is an incredibly important job. He certainly chooses to do certain reports every year. Last year you saw a very important report that he put out on aboriginal health. We are working through the recommendations he's making, and we work closely with him in implementing them so that we can improve the status of the aboriginal population.

This year his report is going to be an update on the general health of the population. Certainly, with the threat of West Nile virus perhaps coming into the province, I know he's working very closely with municipalities, with the BCCDC, with the health authorities and with the government and advising us on that. There are a lot of issues this office deals with, and we are very fortunate to have the advice of Dr. Perry Kendall and his office.

P. Nettleton: I think the minister has actually answered my next question, which was: what are some of the key projects that are presently in the works? I think the minister has identified at least a couple of those.

One of two further questions with respect to the office of the provincial health officer. Is there, in the view of the minister, overlap and redundancy in the planning role of both the Ministry of Health Services and the provincial health officer?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I would characterize it as complementary. The health authorities identify their health needs, and they collect information on the status of their population. Working with the provincial health officer we are able then to plan for health needs across the province. I think the relationship is very complementary.

P. Nettleton: Now I'm going to move into another area. Stop me at any time, if you wish. It may be, in fact, that the questions I have with respect to what I've described as mystery planning are no longer mysteries. They may be identified in the service plan that's sitting beside my microphone. In any event, there are two examples I noticed in the service plan.

Looking at page 15 of the interim service plan, a performance measure target for years 3 and 4 says that the annual report for this year will include a topic of study that is yet to be determined. Likewise, on the same page, page 15, a performance measure target for years 4 and 5 also includes a topic for study that is yet to be determined. My question is this: is it common for governments to slot in things to plan for when they don't know what the planning will be for?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I just want clarification from the member. Was that with respect to the provincial health officer? You're looking at a service plan that was…. If

you're looking at the old service plan, the only thing I can remember for a performance measure on a topic to be determined was with respect to the provincial health officer. That's because he determines what he is going to report on that year. He has independence, and if there's an emerging issue or something that has been identified or that he decides is important to report on, he chooses that topic and will report on it. That is the only thing I can remember from the old service plan that was stated that way.

Hon. S. Hawkins: It was with respect to the provincial health officer, and the target was an annual report, topic to be determined. Again, because he's independent, he gets to decide. He thinks, right now, he may be reporting on air quality. That may change, so I'm not going to hold him to that. He gets to decide, and he will put out the report and his advice to us.

P. Nettleton: I know the Ministry of Health Planning does a lot of planning. I have one further question with respect to planning. Will there come a time, as you gaze into your crystal ball, when the ministry has served its purpose with respect to planning? The estimates for planning in this ministry are forecast to go down in the years ahead. Planning, perhaps, could be done by health authorities within the various regions of the province, knowing as they do the needs with respect to planning from region to region.

Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm not going to say one way or another what a Premier might decide or a future government might decide as far as having a Ministry of Health Planning. I do know — and the member is very well aware, because we sat together in the House for the last six-odd years through opposition and, certainly, in earlier observations — that for decades there was no planning. I think we've seen the results of that today.

I think the work being done by the ministry and the health planners in the ministry and the work they do with the health authorities is essential in making sure we do have good information, good evidence and a good basis for making decisions for the planning that is essential to running a good public health care system. The work we do is going to continue, and I think it is essential that we are focused on planning for health care.

What happens in the future is not up to me to decide, but I can tell you I'm pretty proud of the people that are working to do the planning right now, because we are seeing good results from the two years the ministry has been in place.

P. Nettleton: On a completely different topic, I have a series of questions. I had every intention of alerting the minister to the fact that I had wanted to pursue a series of questions with respect to naturopathy, and I didn't do that. I'm hoping that isn't problematic, in terms of pursuing questions.

P. Nettleton: Okay. In any event, I will pursue a number of questions, if I may, with respect to naturopathy. The Health Professions Council issued its naturopathic physicians scope of practice in the post-hearing update, which has major discrepancies from the preliminary report from the perspective of those involved in the naturopathic field. The government is prepared to use this document, apparently, as the template for the future of naturopathic physicians. It's their view that if implemented, it would destroy the practice of naturopathic medicine in this province and leave no valid science-based alternatives to patients seeking complementary medical care from licensed doctors trained in non-allopathic therapies.

A question, then, with respect to those comments: will the minister assure folks out there that the scope of practice for naturopathic physicians will not be reduced and that British Columbians will continue to receive naturopathic care as they have for over 70 years?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm going to probably give the same answer I did this morning. This was canvassed at length this morning by the Leader of the Opposition. Certainly other members from our side of the House have raised these questions.

I think what's really important to understand that we brought in amendments — we actually just introduced them in the House today — to the Health Professions Act, and what those amendments do is introduce a new way to implement scope of practice. The amendments came as a result of ten years of work done by the Health Professions Council — which was implemented, I believe, in 1991 by the Socred government — who did extensive consultations with all the colleges and with the public. They had research done, and they looked at scope of practice for each of the designated health professions. In a culmination of ten years work, they prepared a report that was delivered to government in March 2001. For the last two years we've been working on that report and working on amendments to the act and then looking at how we would modernize and work on scope of practice.

The first step was the amendments to the Health Professions Act to implement the new model of reserved actions. That's what we introduced today. Right now there is absolutely no change to scope of practice for naturopaths; that remains.

The next step is the review of scope of practice. I expect the beginning of that to happen sometime this fall. We will be doing consultations with all of the professions, and we will be conducting those consultations and making those decisions for those regulations on an evidence-based basis.

We've had very good discussions with the College of Naturopathic Physicians of B.C. The officials have

met with them, and we're continuing those discussions. They will be very involved in the regulations.

For the member's information, our regulations for scope of practice — some of them are from the 1920s; some of them are earlier; some of them are later. What we're trying to do is modernize. As the member probably knows, health care has changed a lot in the last 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 years, and we want to make sure — and I'm sure the member wants to make sure — that patient safety is paramount, that what health professionals are doing is based on good evidence and is grounded in patient safety. That's our interest. The public interest is our interest, as I'm sure it is yours.

I want to assure the member that, yes, we are using that report called Safe Choices. It's a 1,400-page report. If the member wants a copy, I'll make sure he gets one. It's good bedtime reading if he's not getting any sleep. We are using that as a basis, and certainly in that report, if the member goes and looks at the section for, what the council is recommending in places are enhancements, as well, to scope of practice. We're looking at those as well as recommendations on what could be potentially harmful procedures that perhaps shouldn't be in scope of practices.

Again, that work is going to start this fall. I'm sure it's going to go on for a period of months and months, perhaps for a couple of years. I don't know. I'm not going to judge it. I want to make sure we get it right before we change it. As I said, the draft regulations go out for consultation to all the colleges, and the naturopaths will be very involved in the process.

P. Nettleton: Great, so no change to scope of practice with respect to amendments introduced today. I'm sure the minister will forgive me if I'm not as familiar with those amendments as I'm sure she is, not having had an opportunity to read those amendments, given they were introduced in the House an hour or two ago, roughly.

In any event, I certainly will do that. I'm sure that I will be following, then, with interest the review with respect to the scope of practice for naturopathic physicians.

Further questions, then, with respect to this whole area of naturopathic practice. It's my understanding that naturopathic physicians are denied access to provincial medical labs. These labs are privately owned and, apparently, publicly funded. These physicians, of course, are licensed doctors trained as general practitioners in complementary medicine. As primary health care providers they do a full range of diagnostic tests. It makes no sense that they should have to send patients' blood work to labs outside the province.

I'm wondering if the minister wants to address this issue with respect to naturopathic physicians and access to provincial labs.

Hon. S. Hawkins: For the member's information, yes, the bill was introduced this afternoon, but the draft legislation has been on the Web. It's been through three iterations. We released a White Paper last July.

In working with the colleges, they raised some very legitimate concerns. We extended the period of consultation. The drafts have been shared with the colleges, and they're on the Web. If he wanted to make himself more familiar with it, it was all there. We tried to be as open as we could with the consultations.

You're absolutely right about some of the concerns the naturopaths have about accessing labs. Again, that kind of expanded scope will be within the purview of the consultations we are going to start sometime this fall with scope-of-practice regulation review.

The Health Professions Council did recommend — that's what I was saying earlier — some places that perhaps the scope should be narrowed. They did recommend that in other places, perhaps, it should be enhanced. One of the recommendations they made is that naturopathic physicians be granted a limited range of lab testing and that any barriers that prevent referrals to medical specialists be reviewed.

We are going to look at that as we go ahead with the scope of practice review. Certainly, with the scope of practice review that will be conducted with respect to naturopaths we are going to look at the training they get. I know that some of the work's been done already. We're going to go to the colleges where they train and see what kinds of procedures they are trained to do. We want to make sure that we're basing our decisions on evidence. We're going to go through the literature. We're going to go through consultations with the naturopathic physicians. Certainly, the National Institutes of Health in the U.S. have extensive information on this as well.

We're going to try to get as much information as we can when we look at what the scope should be. Again, patient safety is paramount. I think the member would agree with me that when we are regulating professions, we want to make sure they do procedures that are safe for patients. That is my interest: making sure that patient safety is ensured as we're redoing and modernizing the scopes and designating them to different professions.

P. Nettleton: Not to belabour the point with respect to scope of practice, but there are a couple of further issues I would like to bring to the minister's attention within this area. Naturopathic physicians have traditionally and currently use anaesthetic. The reserved act removes the ability to use anaesthetic, even though naturopathic physicians are appropriately trained to use anaesthetic and have used anaesthetic for decades.

Hundreds of thousands of patients from our province rely on naturopathic physicians for therapies which employ anaesthetic. It is incongruent to disallow anaesthetic while allowing procedures such as venipuncture, removal of foreign bodies or even first aid without allowing anaesthetic. Will the minister, then, ensure that naturopathic physicians and their patients will, in fact, be granted this longstanding reserved act with the express right to use anaesthetic?

Hon. S. Hawkins: Just to clarify for the member, this is, again, a scope-of-practice issue. Right now the amendments I introduced this afternoon do not affect the practice of naturopaths at all. What they do is bring in a provision that implements a new model of reserved actions. When we look at designating the different reserved actions to the different professions under the new regulations we will be proposing for scopes of practice — because we want to modernize those regulations — then we will be looking at each of these issues.

I can't prejudge what those regulations are going to look like right now. What we're going to do, under the Health Professions Act…. When we do the draft regulations, they go to all the colleges, and all the colleges are consulted on all the scopes for every one of the health professions. There are extensive consultations done in tandem with all the colleges. I'm sure a lot of these issues will come up then. The final decision will be made. The regulations come back to cabinet and are approved at cabinet.

I am not even going to minimize how big a job this is going to be. I'm sure the member is aware that there's probably friction between different professionals — doctors and naturopaths and optometrists and…. There's all kinds of friction there. We want to make sure we reduce that by making sure that the new model of reserved actions will be able to designate more than one's reserved actions in scope-of-practice regulations for different professions. I think these kinds of discussions will come up at that time.

P. Nettleton: One further point, then, with respect to scope of practice. Now that I have the minister's ear, I would like to raise this point in closing, and then I will yield the floor to other members that have questions with respect to this ministry.

Manipulation is a traditional therapy and, again, is used in naturopathic medical practices. It has been a major part of naturopathic physicians' scope, apparently, since 1921. As the minister points out, in fact, this has been the practice for some time. The record of safety with respect to manipulation for naturopathic physicians exceeds that of many of the other groups that use manipulation. They're trained and educated and have the expertise to provide patients with manipulation therapies. Again, I would ask that the minister comment with respect to naturopathic physicians' scope of practice as it relates to the whole question of manipulation.

Hon. S. Hawkins: I want to reinforce that this is an issue that will be discussed in the scope-of-practice review that will start later in the fall. I would like to assure the member that this government wants to make sure there is choice for patients. We want to make sure that patients have the choice of health care providers and that those choices are safe practitioners.

As we conduct this scope of practice review, it will be done with all the colleges, and we'll make sure that patient safety is paramount. We're going to be looking at the best evidence not only in Canada but around the world to make sure, when we're assigning these scopes of practice to the different health practitioners, that it is done on an evidence-based basis and that it is actually something that we can satisfy ourselves is safe to do — that it is safe to put those reserved actions under the different scope-of-practice regulations for the different professions.

I would assume the majority of the things that naturopaths do will remain unchanged. The Health Professions Council identified a few things where they had concerns, and I think it would be irresponsible of me as minister if we didn't look at those. As we conduct the scope-of-practice review, I think a lot of these kinds of discussions are going to happen, and issues will get fleshed out. At the end of the day, we will come up with regulations that hopefully will make sure we've got patient safety, patient interest and public interest right at the forefront as we're making those decisions.

L. Mayencourt: I'll begin by thanking the member for Prince George–Omineca and the minister for so effectively canvassing the issue of naturopathic practitioners and how that is affected by the bill introduced this morning by the minister. A friend of mine, Dr. Aaron Hoo, came to visit me a little while ago. He's a naturopath who practises in my riding. He wanted me to make sure I asked the same questions you just asked. If Aaron is listening, consider that done.

I want to bring forward Aaron's concerns very quickly — that is, that the flexibility or the choice is available to patients to choose the kind of care they want from the type of person they want, provided that it is safe and scientifically based. That's where the naturopaths of British Columbia would like us to be. I'm encouraged by the minister's comments as to what criteria she's going to be using to establish scope of practice for naturopaths and for all of the various disciplines.

I want to just take a few minutes to look at an area of health planning that I find very, very important, particularly because of the community I reside in and the people who live there and also because of my own background in it. That has to do with the issue of HIV/AIDS.

HIV/AIDS has a distinction of being incurable and 100 percent preventable. It is an illness that has really touched my life and the lives of many of the people in my community. I would ask that the minister please give me some sense of the kinds of planning she's doing around an HIV/AIDS strategy for British Columbia and also if she could share with this chamber who is involved or who is advising her on these matters.

Hon. S. Hawkins: We are working, and I work, with the provincial health officer, Dr. Kendall, who you know, and the director general of population health and wellness, Mr. Andy Hazlewood. Ministry staff are very involved in this and advise me. Certainly, we

work with public health officials around the health authorities. We work closely with them to get a feel for what's happening out in the regions. We work with our federal colleagues.

As the member is very well aware, we're working on a HIV/AIDS strategy. I think, again, the member is very well versed in this subject. There is a great need to work on a strategy and set a direction, because the HIV/AIDS epidemic has changed very dramatically. What was once one epidemic is now several very different epidemics, each affecting a different community of people and each requiring different public health responses.

The epidemic has gained ground primarily through a shift to younger and more marginalized populations of injection drug users, aboriginal people, women and young gay men. These are people who often live at the margins of society, and they're hard to reach. They challenge the current techniques for monitoring and preventing the spread of this epidemic. We are working with several different groups to develop the strategy.

We have set goals and targets in four areas for this strategy. They are prevention; care, treatment and support; coordination and collaboration; and capacity. On the progress to date, there was a draft that was approved by the deputy and by both myself and the Minister of Health Services in January 2003. The ministry held workshops from March 28 to April 17, 2003 — so this year — to present and review the document and to seek detailed feedback and comment from the health authorities, from our community partners and from stakeholders.

A workshop was held in each health authority, including the provincial health services authority, and the document is currently being revised to incorporate the feedback from the health authority and the stakeholder input. The final version will be ready sometime later this year, in the next few months.

Just so the member knows, there is a lot of work being done with this. It is a priority, and it is an area of great concern. We are working very diligently at this.

L. Mayencourt: I'm pretty concerned about this because of the incidence of HIV transmission in British Columbia relative to the rest of Canada. I think it's almost two and a half to three times what the national average is. I would expect that when you look at that, there must be something that's happening in British Columbia. I know it's not the water. I wonder if, in the course of the consultation with community groups, with the provincial health officer and others — Mr. Hazlewood, for example…. What is it that's driving our numbers up so high, and what is it that we are contemplating being able to do to try and bring that lower? We'd like to be number ten on this one in terms of the numbers in Canada. I wonder if the minister could speak to that issue for just a little bit, please.

Hon. S. Hawkins: Again, I know the member has a lot of knowledge in this area. B.C. has approximately 20 percent of the new HIV infections in Canada, so that is an area of concern. He was asking why we are seeing the increase here. Several reasons. We have a big aboriginal population that's very mobile. They move from reserve to urban areas and back and forth.

That was a concern documented in the report the provincial health officer released in October, talking about aboriginal. The incidence of HIV in that population was high, and it was a concern. We need to address that.

We have a high IV drug user population in the province. We have a large gay community. I'm sure the member knows this as well. The concern the provincial health officer has identified there is that it's the young gay men who, again, are the population of concern. It's the risky behaviour in that population that accounts for the infection rate being driven up in that population.

AIDS has been responsible for the deaths of over 2,300 British Columbians since 1987. We really do believe it is a priority for us, and that's why we're moving on a strategy that we hope will be ready in the next few months, and we'll work with the health authorities to implement that.

L. Mayencourt: I was just listening to the minister's answer. I've become kind of numb to the 2,300, the number of people…. Well, no, I haven't. I've become used to it. The member for Peace River South, sitting beside me, went: "Wow. That's pretty terrible."

I was just reminded that this weekend or next weekend we have our AIDS candlelight vigil in which we read the names of all the people who have died in the last little while. It just struck me that it's a big number.

There's an even larger number I am concerned with, and that's the number of individuals that are living with HIV and have not yet progressed on to AIDS. I'm not exactly sure what that number is. There's a lot of discussion in all sorts of different quarters about what that number really is. I know we're trying to take a look at the incidence of HIV/AIDS throughout the province, and one of the ways we feel we're going to be able to get a better handle on this is the issue of HIV becoming a reportable illness. I'm not sure if that's been actually implemented as yet. I am curious.

Let's say we have 15,000 people in British Columbia living with HIV/AIDS — or some number. What are we anticipating we will have after HIV becomes a more reportable disease? I understand that one in three individuals just don't know they have it. What's that number going to be? Have we noticed any increase in that number since we made it a reportable illness? Have we started that process just yet?

Hon. S. Hawkins: The provincial health officer makes a very good point. If we're successful in identifying new cases, the number obviously could go up. If we did make HIV reportable, I understand it'll be implemented May 1, so all the work and the regulation to get us there has been ongoing. We made it reportable

so that it would shorten the time between infection and diagnosis and treatment can occur more quickly. Certainly, the B.C. Centre for Disease Control will be better able to track the course of the HIV epidemic with this information. That was the impetus of moving HIV reportability forward.

It is a matter of numbers. If we identify them and track them, the numbers could go up, yeah.

L. Mayencourt: Is there a guesstimate at this stage of the game as to where that number might be?

Hon. S. Hawkins: Again, it's numbers. We have 441 cases a year. That's what we see. Health Canada guesstimates that up to a third of people out there with the disease don't know they have it. We might expect maybe another 200 if those are the numbers that we're using.

L. Mayencourt: I noted when I read through many of these reports that there's been a bit of a decline over the past several years in terms of HIV transmission in and amongst men having sex with men — in other words, the gay community. But at the same time, there's been an increase in the number of women contracting the disease or being infected with the virus.

In particular, I note that first nations women are hard hit by that, which speaks to the issue of: what is it that we're not doing in terms of meeting that population somewhere and providing education and prevention services that will prevent the spread of that disease? Could the minister speak to the issue of women becoming more prevalent in terms of our HIV cases and then specifically to how that's translating in terms of first nations women?

Hon. S. Hawkins: The member is correct in saying that heterosexual transmission is on the increase for women generally. Aboriginal women are disproportionately represented in that group. It is higher. Certainly there are several factors for that — IV drug use and poverty, certainly in the downtown east side. The provincial health officer informs me that it's a higher number of aboriginal women affected because of these two factors. The at-risk lifestyle that these women are involved in, the sex trade being one of them….

Other heterosexual women don't always know they're at risk. Their partners don't fess up. There's a challenge in knowing whether you're at risk or not. So certainly prevention, prevention, prevention, if they are going to engage in risky behaviour.

One other thing. The member mentioned that gay, man-to-man transmission was going down, but the provincial health officer does inform me that for young gay men it is on the increase. Again, it's risky lifestyle. It's taking the risks, again, that we know there are preventative measures to prevent against.

L. Mayencourt: No doubt one of the things that's been a great help in terms of identifying women who are carrying the virus is that a fairly high percentage of women having a baby, who are pregnant, are tested for the HIV virus. I'm sure that's very helpful in terms of letting those individuals know about that. What's our record on transmission from mother to child? Are we doing well on that score, and could we do better?

Hon. S. Hawkins: We have about a 90 percent capture rate of pregnant women who are HIV-positive. We're able to get about 90 percent of them, and that is apparently a good percentage, a fairly high rate of identifying women who are pregnant and have HIV. I'm informed by the provincial health officer that we haven't had a mom-to-baby transmission in quite a long time — at least six years, maybe up to ten years. It's been quite a while since we've had a transmission.

Dr. Ballem, our deputy, informs me that we use anti-retrovirals in pregnancy and then immediately after in postpartum, and they are safe. The Oak Tree Clinic in Children's and Women's has been a huge resource in PHSA, the provincial health services authority, in making sure these women are tracked and treated.

L. Mayencourt: The issue of prevention has got to be a really important part of any plan you put forward. Are you involved in setting those targets, if you will? When we look at funding an organization, say, like Positive Women's Network or AIDS Vancouver or B.C. Persons with AIDS Society or Red Road or any of the other groups, are you involved in creating a target of, say, a percentage of those dollars we provide to them that would be directed towards prevention strategies for populations that have not yet been infected with HIV?

Hon. S. Hawkins: First of all, the money for those contracts is with the health authorities. We used to have it in our ministry, but we devolved that down to the health authorities, so they have the money for all those contracts.

We set the directional plan, and that was the strategy that I was mentioning earlier to the member. That's a strategy that's been worked on for the last year and a half and hopefully will be released in the next month or two, as soon as it's finalized. We're getting the final feedback from the health authorities and the stakeholders, and that will be the directional plan for the health authorities to follow.

Certainly, as far as monitoring and looking at the numbers, the provincial health officer is going to be following that very closely. What he told me right now is that we expect the numbers to bump up because we do have the new HIV reportability requirements. We had the discussion earlier of how we think there's a

certain amount, about 30 percent, of people walking around with HIV who don't know they have it. We expect the numbers to go up and then come down. The provincial health officer is very aware of that. He's going to be tracking that. We'll certainly be working with the health authority, and he will, as well, be making recommendations and advising on those kinds of situations.

Prevention is very important. I think the health authorities understand that. Certainly, when we get the strategy out, it is a key piece in the strategy. We'll be working with the health authorities on how we're going to implement that.

L. Mayencourt: The prevention piece of it is obviously…. I feel quite passionate that it's an area where we need to direct a fair bit of creativity and passion and effort.

I was reading that if we were able to reduce…. This is from the draft report, but if we were able to prevent a total of 660 new HIV infections by 2007 — this is a five-year plan — we would avert between $118 million and $148 million in future direct health care expenditures. That's a very compelling reason. Other than the fact, of course, that we're talking about people's lives, this is a very compelling reason to put some resources towards prevention and education services.

Let's say it's only $150 million in health care costs, but what about the costs to society for lost productivity and all those sorts of things? I wonder if you've contemplated what is the real cost beyond the health care costs? What's the real cost of somebody contracting HIV? What's the cost to society?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm informed that the indirect costs could be twice the direct costs of health care. That is concerning. By cutting the annual number of new infections in half over the next five years our province could prevent a total of 660 new HIV infections and avoid approximately $133.6 million in health care expenditures over the long term. Those are pretty significant numbers, so I agree with you that prevention is a key piece. It is certainly something we're going to continue working at.

L. Mayencourt: I'd like to move for a few minutes to treatment issues. There are a number of individuals who receive treatment for HIV or AIDS through the Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS in my riding at St. Paul's Hospital. I'm really proud of the people who do all the great work there. They have a budget of around $35 million or $36 million annually, and they manage the care for, I think, 2,500 individuals. Plus they have a number of others that are eligible for treatment through the centre for excellence, but they're on what's called a scheduled treatment interruption.

I'm told by the centre for excellence that they're receiving about nine new clients a month. That's putting some cost pressures on them in terms of the drug costs they have. Has there been some contemplation by the ministry…? Okay, we're going to have a little bit of a bump in the number of people that are HIV-positive simply because of the reportability, plus we have a slight incline in the young gay male population. We have a fairly sharp incline that's happening around first nations women injection drug users.

My concern is that I think they do a pretty good job of managing $36 million, but where are we going to be, say, next year, with the centre for excellence? Are we contemplating increases in their budget even in this fiscal year?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I think we're now encroaching into the Health Services operational. I think those questions are better answered by the minister responsible for the health authorities, who holds the budgets.

L. Mayencourt: The other question relates to the centre for excellence, but I understand that the budget dollars and all of that is probably out of line. I will reserve that for the Minister of Health Services.

One of the things I'm noticing in my community is that people are…. We had a real miracle in about 1995; anti-retrovirals came in. All of a sudden, through combination therapies we had, I think in 1994, on average one person die a day at St. Paul's from AIDS. That was a pretty big number to deal with. Then, through the centre for excellence, they got some really good stuff going in terms of developing a cocktail, some pretty aggressive treatment regimens, and all of a sudden we got the mortality rate down. The mortality rate was quite far down.

Now I'm seeing people who got in on that program and were really starting to thrive and succeed…. I'm seeing those same people, these many years later — seven years later — starting to weaken. I'm seeing some changes in their bodies. I'm seeing some changes in their abilities to absorb their medications.

Gosh, I guess this question is actually going to have to go back to the Minister of Health Services. I apologize, Mr. Chair. I'm going to reserve that one for a little bit later.

There was a discussion around how we can do a better job with community groups that are delivering front-line services to people living with HIV/AIDS. I'm wondering, in the discussion of this particular strategy you've been developing, to what extent those community groups have come together and what they are saying about this draft, or have they seen it yet?

Hon. S. Hawkins: We certainly involve the community groups in the planning of our directional plan for HIV/AIDS. I think the member would agree that government really isn't the place to decide how the community groups should be involved. That's the health authorities. That's why we devolved the money and the authority to the health authorities: so they could look at how they interact with community groups to provide those services in the best possible way for the group that's in need. I think it's for the

health authorities and the community groups to decide how best to work together to make sure that the people who need the services are receiving them.

L. Mayencourt: If I could just put forward that — and this is just for information; it's not really a question — those community groups, like B.C. Persons with AIDS Society and AIDS Vancouver and Positive Women's Network and Red Roads and all of those really are on the front line, and they're wanting very much to interact and develop strategies with government, perhaps through the health authorities. I'm not sure how many of them fall under the provincial health authority and how many fall under a regional health authority, but I would just like to really stress that it's always been my experience in this field that those are important partners who need to be included as much as possible in a dialogue around prevention strategies, treatment. They're terrific advocates for a whole range of things.

I'd like to just switch for a second to the issue of hepatitis C, partly because a large number of people living with HIV are co-infected with hepatitis C. I've been talking with the centre for excellence about the best way of managing that disease for those people who are co-infected, but there also seems to be an awful lot of British Columbians that are mono-infected with hepatitis C.

Has there been some discussion about the medical cost for someone living with hepatitis C over the course of their life, much the same as we've just done with the HIV?

Hon. S. Hawkins: We don't have a good handle on the costs, but as you can imagine…. I'm sure direct and indirect costs are probably high as well, in the range of the HIV costs. This is an area we are working on. When we work on our chronic disease management strategies…. Right now we're not looking at this one specifically, but we are looking generally at how our health care system manages people with chronic diseases and if they're getting the most appropriate care at the right time by the most appropriate provider. Those are the kinds of questions we are looking at answering as we work on our chronic disease management strategies.

B.C. has Canada's only integrated hepatitis C prevention and care strategy. B.C. provides both insured medically necessary services and non-insured services for people with hep C. Hepatitis services are available to all people with hepatitis C. That includes people infected through the Canadian blood system prior to 1986 and those infected since 1986. We are doing things to address the health concerns of those who are infected.

I hope that answers some of the questions. I'm sorry I don't have the specific answer. This province spends over $200 million a year on hepatitis services, and $100 million of this is for hep C.

L. Mayencourt: Thank you to the minister. That's a pretty big number — $100 million. I understand we're somewhere in the range of 30,000 individuals within the province. Not unlike HIV, we lead the country in hepatitis C. When we go about this business of looking at chronic disease management, which this would certainly fall under, I know I speak not only for myself and my community but also for probably 30,000 British Columbians living with hep C that we really do want to see a coordinated approach to dealing with this illness.

I'm going to lobby right here, hoping that Pharmacare is listening to me. There are four genotypes for hepatitis C. There's a bad one, a worse one and then a couple that are sort of in the middle somewhere. We have been using interferon as a way of treating that. I know there have been some great developments in the area of pegylated interferon, which is longer lasting and has had a greater success rate at not just reducing the problems associated with hep C but actually curing it. Not everybody can take this, but there is a good argument, I think, for moving forward with some testing to see if it actually could be beneficial and if pegylated interferon as a class of drug could be in there.

I know the minister probably would not be able to answer that particular question, but I'm just going to lobby Pharmacare on air right now to take a very good look at that.

Specifically, when it comes to HIV and hepatitis C, those individuals who are co-infected, I would also…. I've had some conversations with the centre for excellence. I have had some conversations with the Centre for Disease Control. There is a great desire to see co-infected individuals living with these illnesses managed through the centre for excellence. I sure hope we can see that actually come to pass in the next little while.

Even if we were to bring hepatitis C and HIV co-infected individuals and treat it through the Centre for Excellence in HIV/AIDS, we'd be costing about $610,000 a year. It's not bad, when you think about the fact that you're actually curing someone, and when you cure them, they don't need a liver transplant.

The second part of it is through the Centre for Disease Control. They feel they would be able to treat about 600 individuals annually with pegylated interferon, whether it's one manufacturer or another. When you do the math, it's a fairly hefty bill. But if we can make people better and we can get them productive again and back to work, they'll be able to pay taxes to help us deliver an even better health care system.

That's my pitch for that right now; it's not really a question. I do want to thank the Minister of Health Planning for the time she's taken to do that. I look forward to your comments.

Hon. S. Hawkins: I'm informed that we're on top of the pegylated interferon and that Health Services is working on that. You can certainly question the minister further when he is back with his estimates.

We have a very comprehensive integrated strategy for hep C in this province. We certainly have the B.C.

Centre for Disease Control; they established a hepatitis services division in 2000. They receive advice on hepatitis services from a provincial hepatitis committee. That committee helps the ministry to develop and update best practices for hepatitis and develops clinical guidelines. It also trains nurses and physicians in hep C diagnosis and treatment as well as developing several other initiatives related to hep C.

The BCCDC also has developed a pilot clinical care database which tracks cure rates for hep C and is involved with lab testing to identify and track hep C cases. New test methods are increasing diagnostic accuracy and helping to guide treatment duration and to measure the cure.

We have pilot projects set up in each of the province's five health regions to improve local access to hepatitis services. The pilots are certainly intended to develop integrated prevention and care programs in each health region.

As part of our prevention efforts, all B.C. infants are being vaccinated against hepatitis B, and hepatitis A and B vaccinations are provided at no cost to people infected with hepatitis C. There is no vaccine for hep C.

We already have a comprehensive strategy for hepatitis C. I'm not sure we would integrate it with HIV. I would have to get advice on that, but I certainly appreciate all of the member's questions and comments. If there is more that you have, you can feel free to raise them with me anytime out of estimates as well to see where our progress is.

B. Suffredine: Just a couple of matters; I think I'm batting cleanup today. Some of the things that were touched on earlier and I think might be of use for the general public…. Those people who come forward with ideas for improved health services that want to provide something, maybe some of the examples of the Heart Smart program…. The examples of people who want to lobby to bring forward something…. We heard about naturopaths wanting to deal with their scope of practice, etc., midwives wanting to expand their practice.

When those groups want to come forward to the Ministry of Health Planning and make their pitch for why they are providing a useful health service that should be considered either for authorization or for funding under MSP, could the minister outline the ways in which they might do that in an effective way so that they don't spent their time lobbying individual MLAs to no effect — in other words, some guidance for those groups so that they get the job done.

Hon. S. Hawkins: I don't think we'll ever stop getting lobbied. I think you can rest assured that you'll still get members of the public coming through your door. Anything I tell you is not going to stop that, but that's our job: to meet those people and hear their ideas and feed them through.

Specifically for the ministries and how we go through our processes for the colleges, if they're looking for changes in their scopes, if there are new and emerging procedures they want to do, we meet with them regularly. I intend to do that with the colleges. We have discussions with ministry staff and the colleges to review the kind of information they have and make decisions based on good evidence that they provide, so there will be an avenue to do that.

Within the ministry we have a process, and we will be putting a process in place. We used to have the Health Professions Council that would review professions that wanted to be designated under the Health Professions Act. We know there are several in play right now that are hoping to get the designation, and we will be looking at that. Certainly, Mr. Alan Moyes and Mary Falconer in the ministry's legislative branch are very up on that.

As far as new fee items, there is a process through the Medical Services Commission, and the doctors follow that. For other allied disciplines there are panels in MSC that also would review the requests and make a decision. The new act — there are amendments to the act that we introduced today — will help streamline the process for existing colleges, but again, we will be setting up a process in the ministry to review applications from other health professionals that want to be designated. That work will be ongoing, I'm sure.

I don't think that will stop you from getting people coming through your door to lobby you anyway, so I'm sure you'll keep expecting those visits.

B. Suffredine: I'll just order a copy of that so I can hand it to the people when they come through my door from here on.

The nursing strategy was raised this morning, and the topic of nurse practitioners. Essentially, the question on this is fairly direct and to the point. Basically, how soon do you expect that status of person to be available on a job site? Can you give some guidance? I would have expected that small communities would find nurse practitioners the most interesting, so could you elaborate on why they might be of value to small communities that are having trouble attracting and retaining physicians?

Hon. S. Hawkins: I think one of the most exciting things we did during this Nursing Week was announce that we're going to have a new category of health practitioner — that is, the nurse practitioner — which will be an expanded role for nurses. It will be an independent role for nurses. We announced today that we'll be putting 30 seats in place for educating nurse practitioners, 15 at the University of Victoria, 15 at UBC.

I think it's really important to make sure we are providing our citizens with the most appropriate care provider in areas that are perhaps underserved and could use this kind of health practitioner when we're looking at renewing primary care. I think it's exciting for the rural areas, and I think it's exciting for nurses as they look at ways they can expand their role in providing patient care.

We are working with RNABC, which is the Registered Nurses Association of B.C. They set the standards

and the competencies. I expect there will be nurses existing in practice that will be able to meet those standards and competencies, so there might be some grandmothering or grandfathering so that they would be able to slip right into that role. Again, we are also adding seats. It will be a master's level education program called the nurse practitioner program at UVic and UBC.

B. Suffredine: The last area I want to cover…. I want to note in passing that the best health strategy is a fitness program, as I understand it. I notice that Dr. Kendall has been engaged in that all day. I'm going to help him with his fitness strategy. My last part is on the West Nile virus.

When we had the SARS issue over the last few weeks, there was a tendency to turn that into an epidemic instead of a serious disease. There was a public tendency to overreact to something that, although very serious, wasn't necessarily of epidemic proportions.

West Nile virus is anticipated to arrive in British Columbia this year, and very likely it will. I'm from an area where there are migrating geese coming from the south. There are some fears expressed in places like the Creston Valley, where there are 17,000 acres of wetlands and mosquitoes galore. As a matter of fact, I think I'm the only lawyer in British Columbia who's ever brought an action to save the life of a mosquito, years ago. There was a tax issue, let's say.

B. Suffredine: I don't think we'll do that today. I think my friend to my left wants me to get on with this.

Could we first put a face on this in terms of how seriously the chief medical officer views West Nile virus in terms of the seriousness of the illness and the scale in terms of whether he'd describe it as a potential epidemic or otherwise?

Hon. S. Hawkins: You're absolutely right. There is no known case of West Nile in the province to date. There is an expectation that we can expect it this year, as there was one dead bird found south of us in Washington State. We are working very hard right now on being vigilant and getting our surveillance network in place. In 2002 there were over 3,900 confirmed human cases — of those, 254 deaths — identified in the United States and over 100 confirmed cases and two deaths identified in the eastern part of Canada, in Ontario and Quebec. Hundreds of reptiles and thousands of birds, mostly members of the corvid family…. I think that includes crows, blue jays, hawks and ravens; those are your corvids. You got your biology lesson there. Horses also died in 2002 in North America.

I am informed by the provincial health officer that the risk is very low, but that doesn't mean we just sit on our petard. It means we actually get out there and work and make sure the risk remains low. We do have a strategy that includes seven components. They are testing dead crows. We want to identify any positive results, because that will be the first indication that the virus is present in an area. We are trapping and testing adult mosquitoes in all regions of the province. We're posting up-to-date summaries of crow and mosquito test results on the BCCDC — that's the B.C. Centre for Disease Control — website.

We will be providing West Nile testing for patients through the B.C. Centre for Disease Control and making West Nile a reportable disease. That's been done already; it is reportable. Physicians would be required to report if they had identified patients.

Public education is key here. We're emphasizing prevention of mosquito bites and breeding grounds in yards. If you have bird baths or any kind of stagnant water around your property that puts it at risk of being a mosquito infestation ground, we are asking the public to be very aware of that.

We're working with the health authorities and the municipalities to make sure they're getting that public education and awareness out. We're also working with the health authorities and the municipalities in mosquito control programs. Most communities that have had mosquito problems have a mosquito control program, but we're asking them to be extra vigilant in their planning, as well, this year because of the threat of this new health risk.

We're also working with Canadian Blood Services and the B.C. Transplant Society to identify West Nile infections in blood donors and in organ and tissue transplants. Obviously, once we identify a person as having the virus, we want to make sure it's contained and not spread in blood, fluid and organs to someone else.

There is a seven-pronged strategy that's in play right now. I think we can probably expect West Nile sometime this year, but we're going to make darn sure that we're going to do everything we can to reduce that risk.

B. Suffredine: Just for the record, I think sitting on my petard might be potentially a health risk as well as uncomfortable.

Thank you, minister, for the elaborations. You saved me a couple of questions with that answer. There's one thing I was concerned with. I'm not sure the public is aware that the costs of mosquito prevention or mosquito control are actually with the municipalities.

The other one issue arose in terms of controlling areas like the Creston Valley Wildlife Centre. It's not within a municipality; it's 17,000 acres of mosquito-breeding ground. Is the Ministry of Health Planning looking at ways that we can deal with issues like that, where we have large areas of standing water not within municipalities that would create potential hazards for mosquito breeding?

Hon. S. Hawkins: We have a cross-ministry strategy, obviously, when we are looking at this. It does affect other ministries, so we're working with the Min-

ister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services, because he's responsible for municipalities. We're working with the Minister of Water, Land and Air Protection and with Health Planning and Health Services. We're working with the health authorities as well.

As far as reducing the risk in those wetlands, the provincial health officer tells me it very much depends on the human risk. If five people are affected over a 17,000-acre piece of land, we think public awareness, education and prevention are very important. We would be asking those people to make sure they were using prevention measures, such as using insect spray that had DEET, which is the effective ingredient; making sure they wore light-coloured clothes and covered most of their skin if they were out in those areas; and that kind of stuff.

There are smaller communities. Most of the communities that have a mosquito problem have mosquito control programs. Our information, in working with the Ministry of Water, Land and Air Protection; the municipalities; and BCCDC, is that we're identifying those communities. Some of them have already beefed up their mosquito control programs.

For the communities that don't have them but are identifying that risk and perhaps don't have the funding, I understand that the Minister of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services is going to work with those communities on a bridging program to perhaps help with funding. But that is a public health care concern in their communities. It is a municipal responsibility, and we're working very closely with municipalities and health authorities and the BCCDC and our provincial health officer to address those communities that have a risk and perhaps don't have the programs in place in trying to address that with them.

The Chair: The committee will have a short recess, and we'll start up with the Minister of State for Mental Health.

Hon. G. Cheema: I just want to take this opportunity to briefly outline some of the achievements we have been able to achieve for the about the last 21 months.

Before I do that, I want to say thank you to staff and especially to our deputy minister. Most of the staff have left because it takes a lot of patience to stay for a whole day. That was very good. I was almost going to be intoxicated with water because I was waiting for 2½ hours, so I continued to drink water. I think I'm in good shape.

I wanted to make sure that I say thank you especially to Irene Clarkson because she has done an exceptionally good job with a staff of five or six. She has been the driving force of mental health. I just want to thank you. Also, our deputy minister. She's only one deputy minister, and she has to deal with four of us. You can imagine, by the end of the week, how her mental health is. I just always pray for her. She has done a great job.

When I was given the responsibility on June 5, 2001, by the Premier to be the first Minister of State for Mental Health in the Commonwealth, I was truly touched. I think it's a huge opportunity for us. It was a big challenge. My job has been very rewarding but at times has been very frustrating because mental health has been ignored in the past.

The way we started working, myself and a staff of basically 1½, was that we wanted to deal with mental health one person at a time. I think that was our philosophy. We worked across the province, and that one person at a time really multiplied. We worked under the water. We were swimming under the water. I think that worked very well for us. I want to say thank you again to the staff who were great in achieving all those goals.

Our job has been easy because we have been able to work with all the provincial mental health organizations. That's a very significant statement because all of these organizations were not part of the previous government's health care agenda. They're all working with us, and they have truly made mental health a non-political issue. That is, again, an achievement.

If you look at all the health organizations in this province…. I'll name some of them: Anxiety Disorders Association, the Association for Awareness and Networking around Disordered Eating, the British Columbia Schizophrenia Society, the Canadian Mental Health Association, Kaiser Foundation, Mood Disorder Association of British Columbia and the Mental Health Evaluation and Community Consultation Unit at UBC. They have been truly great partners for us. I want to say thank you to them because without their help, I would never have been able to achieve all those goals given by the Premier.

One in five of us in this room will be touched by mental illness in our lifetime — one out of five. This statistic tells us that nobody is immune. It tells us that tomorrow a mental illness could affect us, our parents, our friends, our spouses, our children. All members of the community could be affected. In fact, figures now show it may soon be one out of four.

We recognize that this is a very important statistic, and our government is working hard to address this by

revitalizing the mental health care system in our province. We are taking significant steps to do this. I would like to outline our plan to strengthen community mental health services, to create networks of care, to build modern facilities and to implement best practices. I will just outline some of the best practices we are implementing in this province — for example, guidelines for elderly mental health care planning for best practices for health authorities, electroconvulsive therapy guidelines for health authorities in British Columbia, supporting families with parental mental illness, peer support resource manual, early psychosis care guide, best practices guidelines relating to reproductive mental health.

Our government acknowledges that the most effective way to provide mental health services is in the communities rather than in hospitals or institutions. When we came into office we found a community system that was fragmented. We found that the level of care varied across the 52 health regions in this province. We found that the community contracts were not effectively managed, and the accountability standards were lacking. Funding often went to organizations that shouted the loudest rather than to those that could provide the most effective services. In fact, good services were good despite the setup of the health care system.

I would like to say, however, that professionals that work in the mental health system are extremely dedicated. We are lucky to have them. We have given the health authorities the tools to ensure that community services are strengthened. They can now challenge the status quo and ensure that the community services are evidence-based and effective. Those are the services that have been tested and proven to work.

Our government believes that patients with mental illnesses can recover, and mental illness services must contribute to patients' wellness and recovery.

Another way we have strengthened our community services is by bringing mental health and addictions services together. Just like mental illness, addiction is an illness. Addiction is not a character flaw. It is an illness of the brain that needs to be treated.

When we formed the government, it was clear that we had two separate systems working independently of each other: an addiction system that operated in isolation from the health system and a mental health system that operated independently of the addictions system. People with mental illnesses were often excluded from treatment because of their addictions, and people with addictions were often excluded from treatment because of their mental illnesses. The two systems worked independently of each other, and they worked against the needs of the patient.

We did our homework and found that about 70 percent of the patients in the addictions system were also patients of the mental health system. We made the decision to challenge the status quo. Last April, for the first time in British Columbia our government brought addiction care directly into the health care delivery system. We merged mental health and addictions to meet the needs of the patients. This is something that should have happened a long time ago.

In addition to strengthening our community services, we are creating networks of care across the province. Riverview Hospital plays a central role in our efforts to create a mental health network across the province. The facilities at Riverview Hospital are outdated and institutional. Despite the excellent caregiving efforts of the staff at Riverview, the best health outcomes cannot be achieved in this setting for all patients.

At Riverview Hospital not only do patients need to recover from illness, many have to recover from years of institutionalization. This hospital is a shadow of an era in which the mentally ill were warehoused instead of treated, hidden away as though a mental illness was something to be ashamed of. Patients all over British Columbia were sent to this institution instead of being treated in their home communities.

In the past, attempts were made to downsize Riverview Hospital, but patients were not provided with the appropriate housing to ensure the success of their transition out of the institutional care. We are doing it differently. We have dedicated $138 million to create smaller, regional care facilities throughout the province, to provide an alternative to the outdated institutional facilities at Riverview Hospital. These new facilities are modern, homelike and, as such, offer an environment that promotes mental wellness and recovery.

With our capital funding plan we are creating these care settings for patients. These new homes include Iris House in Prince George, which opened last year, and Seven Oaks in Victoria, which opened in October of last year. More recently we opened two new homelike facilities in Kamloops and expanded Iris House in order to double the number of patients it can accommodate. We are choosing a site for the facility in the central Vancouver Island area, and we expect construction on this new facility to begin within the next few months.

The Fraser health authority and Vancouver coastal health authority are presently working on creating a placement for over a hundred Riverview patients. Together with the health authorities, we are moving to a system that provides a non–institutional care environment for people with a mental illness, and we are doing it differently. We are doing it without losing bed capacity. In fact, we are increasing capacity in the province.

This effort has been a long time in the making. Previous governments have spoken many words on this issue but have provided little in the way of action. During the past year we have opened several residential mental health facilities in communities around the province, and more will follow. We are very proud of this work.

Our government is implementing the best practices for mental health and addictions. We have developed provincial strategies to deal with depression and anxi-

ety disorders. Already these reports have gained support from experts in the field and even international interest. Depression and anxiety disorders are two of the most common forms of mental illness. They take an enormous economic and social toll on the communities, workplace and families. These strategies are helpful as planning tools and educational resources for the health authorities.

Now we are looking to see how we can prevent depression and anxiety disorders. We are developing best practices guidelines for various areas of mental health treatment and support. Prevention is the core part of our public health programs. We are also working on best practices guidelines for treatment of addictions. These guidelines will provide essential leadership and education to help authorities and mental health professionals across the province.

For individuals, we are developing a mental health toolkit and self-management tools for depression and anxiety disorders. Raising awareness is an essential part of our planning. These efforts will revitalize the way we deal with mental health in British Columbia and ensure that people receive the care they need in a respectful and supportive way. I would encourage all the members and people who care to read Hansard to look on our website at all the work we have been doing to improve the knowledge and the care standard in this province.

These are some of the highlights we have achieved for the last 21 months. There are a number of other projects that are underway. Mr. Chair, I will just prepare for questions from my colleagues, and then we can discuss those.

I want to end by saying that when I was given this job by the Premier, there were three key projects. One was to implement a mental health plan. We made a commitment on page 23 of the New Era document; we have done that.

Second, my role was to become an advocate for mental health across the government. I have worked with the Ministry of Human Resources, the Ministry of Children and Family Development, the Ministry of Solicitor General, and many more. As part of our work we have been able to develop the first comprehensive child and youth mental health plan in this country.

My third role was to establish a public information campaign. This campaign was launched last week by the excellent work done by our executive director and our Deputy Minister of Health. This plan is the most innovative, most effective and most cost-effective plan. All the health organizations are part of this plan, and we are not spending an additional single cent on this plan. They are all working with us. I think that's truly an achievement.

These were my three goals, and I have met all of my goals. I would say again that my goals have been met because of the help I received from many organizations, especially from my staff and the people in this province. You can't imagine…. I go and see them in their basements. They are very happy. They were never given the due respect they deserve. We have given them the respect and the care, and also we have given mental health equal status. We need to do more, but I think we have made a huge difference. Thank you.

R. Masi: First of all, I would just like to say that I've been very impressed with the performance of this ministry. You should be complimented and your staff should be complimented on putting mental illness forward in such a prominent place in our health programs. I think for a long time it has been sort of shoved off and not very well understood. Bringing about the interaction between addictions and mental illness and eating disorders…. These things are talked about and somewhat commonly referred to, but I think the position now that has been given by this government, by the minister and by the minister's staff and the good work…. You really deserve a compliment for the programs that have been developed in such a short time, and it is a relatively short time.

Today I just want to ask a few questions about the methadone situation in the province. I would like to ask the minister, first of all: what is the provincial role in the establishment of methadone treatment centres? What is the actual responsibility there?

Hon. G. Cheema: First of all, I would like to thank my colleague for those compliments. I think this is important, because as I said, it's a very difficult job to be Minister of State for Mental Health. It's not easy, but we want to do it well. It requires a lot of patience, but we have a lot of goodwill, and hard work has paid off.

To answer your specific questions now, the Ministry of Health Services considered first of all that addiction is an illness and is a health issue. A methadone maintenance program is now considered to be the most effective treatment for heroin addiction. The Ministry of Health Services is proud to report that the methadone maintenance program is now available across the province. More than 8,000 clients are enrolled in this program — approximately one-half of the number of injection drug abusers who might ultimately benefit from this health service.

The provincial methadone maintenance program received two international awards for excellence from the American Methadone Treatment Association Conference. Most methadone required for treating opium addiction is prescribed by the community physician and dispensed by the community pharmacist. These health care professionals require business licences from the local municipalities but they operate as independent bodies.

The College of Physicians and the College of Pharmacists are responsible for giving a licence to a particular physician or pharmacist, and they can prescribe methadone as a part of their treatment.

What we have done is we are working with the municipality of Surrey, and we are working with the municipality of Delta. They have some issues, but our deputy minister met with them in Surrey about four

weeks ago, and I think we're in the process of resolving some of their concerns.

Our main objective is patient care and to ensure that if the patient requires methadone treatment, it should be available. The patient's confidentiality must be respected, and that is part of our core issue. I know we'll be able to achieve those.

Ultimately, the responsibility for the business licence is with the municipality. We are responsible for delivering a uniform, evidence-based practice across the province, and methadone is one part of the treatment. It's not the whole treatment.

R. Masi: In reference to methadone, then, I'd like to know: is methadone simply sort of a maintenance treatment, or is it a cure type of treatment? The general public asks a lot of questions on this area, and if you could help me with that I'd appreciate it.

Hon. G. Cheema: Methadone maintenance treatment is considered to be the most effective maintenance treatment for heroin addiction. It's not the ultimate treatment; it's the maintenance treatment. Some of the patients may need this treatment for life.

R. Masi: So does the provincial government have, does the ministry…? I understand it has the responsibility to bring about these treatments, but does it have the right, in fact, to establish treatment centres anywhere in the province?

Hon. G. Cheema: At present there are about 560 physicians and 209 pharmacists across the province who are authorized to prescribe and dispense methadone. Any pharmacist or any physician can apply through their colleges to have a licence to prescribe this medication. It can be done in any part of the province.

R. Masi: It's been pointed out in some controversial situations, I guess, in the municipality of Delta and the city of Surrey, that some of these pharmacies really are making an awful lot of money and really are not providing a full service to all their customers that come in. I think that's the criticism we hear from our constituents.

Hon. G. Cheema: Some of the pharmacies are providing full service; some are not providing full service. It's our intention to make sure we have a balance. We are working with the municipality of Surrey, and our deputy or some of the other staff there will be meeting with the Delta municipal council on May 22 to ensure that we convey the message.

Our objective is to provide the service and make sure we have the same policy across the province. You can't have 56 policies or 30 or any number of policies across the province. We encourage them to have the full service.

Some of the concerns raised by Surrey may or may not be correct. I think that if they have an issue with a special pharmacy, they should go and complain against them with the College of Pharmacists. We are encouraging them to look at all the options and see how we can resolve this issue.

You know, some of those issues are just…. Those stories may or may not be correct. I don't want any pharmacy to be isolated and saying that so-and-so pharmacy is not doing a good job. If they are not doing a good job, then the College of Pharmacists will go and shut them down.

R. Masi: It seems to me that the responsibilities begin with the physicians who recommend or prescribe the methadone and then over to the pharmacies to dispense this, so there's no…. I guess what I'm looking for here is: is there a control on this, or is this wide open to Safeway pharmacies or anything like that? What happens is that municipal politicians have an aversion to establishing these pharmacies in their municipalities.

The Chair: We will have to wrap this up fairly soon, because we have to check out with the House.

Hon. G. Cheema: We are trying to provide a balance across the province. We are reviewing their data through the Pharmacare program, and that way we can guide the College of Pharmacists to ensure that we have a fair distribution of pharmacies across the province. The ultimate responsibility for a licence lies with the colleges.

R. Masi: Just one final question, then, in terms of my riding, Delta North. Are there discussions going on between the ministry and the Delta officials?

Hon. G. Cheema: I wrote to the mayor of Delta North, and I met with her very briefly. I didn't have the full time to discuss all the issues about methadone with her. Dr. Anderson is going to be meeting with their staff on May 22, and we are hoping to help them resolve the issue. Again, the responsibility is with the colleges. We can only monitor the situation.

B. Locke: The member for Delta North did canvass some of the questions I had on methadone, but I did want to thank the minister and the deputy minister very much for the work they have done in Surrey. Certainly your calm, considerate and knowledgable voice put some sanity into our own discussion there, and it was important to do that.

I wanted to ask the minister, with regard to private treatment centres, if they are required to dispense methadone in private centres, or can they opt out of the program?

Hon. G. Cheema: Any organization that is receiving public funding has no option. They have to be part of the programs.

B. Locke: Can the minister tell me what the priorities are for the Fraser health authority with regard to addiction services?

Hon. G. Cheema: Some of the issues we are working on with the Fraser health authority in addictions are that they are focusing on improving access to treatment for persons with both mental illness and addictions. They are developing withdrawal management services delivery to improve access to withdrawal services, treatment and recovery services. They are also working to improve data collection to support better planning and evaluation of services. They are building linkages with other providers — for example, the Ministry of Children and Family Development, Ministry of Human Resources and the police. They are reviewing the standards of addiction services contracts. They are also establishing an integrated service model that will ensure equitable access to services across the authority.

The Chair: Member, this should be the one last question before we have to check out with the big House.

B. Locke: Can the minister tell us how the Fraser health authority's addiction services priorities will be meeting the needs in my community of Surrey directly?

Hon. G. Cheema: That is an easy answer. Our objective is to improve the access to mental health addiction services across the province, and Surrey is no different than any other part of the province. Our objectives are to ensure we provide care which is compassionate and evidence-based and also to integrate the addiction and mental health services at the community level. That will help patients at all levels of care.

In addition to providing transcripts on the Internet, Hansard Services publishes transcripts in print and broadcasts Chamber debates on television.

Official Report of

DEBATES OF THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY