Hansard -- Tuesday, March 11, 2003 a.m. -- Vol. 12, No. 10 (HTML)



CONTENTS

	Routine Proceedings
		Page

Second Reading of Bills		5389
	Police Amendment Act, 2003 (Bill 12) (continued) Hon. R. Coleman S. Orr Hon. J. Murray J. Bray R. Hawes J. Nuraney E. Brenzinger I. Chong L. Mayencourt K. Johnston T. Christensen B. Penner R. Sultan

	Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply		5404
	Estimates: Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services Hon. G. Abbott J. MacPhail B. Penner B. Suffredine

J. MacPhail: I am absolutely thrilled that it's the worst-kept secret in the world, but my colleague from Vancouver–Mount Pleasant gave birth to a baby girl this morning.

Member colleague, if you're watching, we all wish you the best with your new baby girl. The birth was at 1:30 this morning. I had a voice mail left at 2:30 this morning by the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant. I'm actually going to tape the voice mail for posterity, because it is unbelievable, after almost 21 hours of labour, how she sounded. A baby girl about 2.7 kilograms….

J. MacPhail: Okay, just under six pounds, about 49 centimetres long — almost 18 or 19 inches long. The father and mother are doing extremely well. Dan Small and the member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant are doing extremely well. The baby is a black-haired, raven beauty with curly hair.

Jenny — oh, sorry, member for Vancouver–Mount Pleasant — we love you, and we wish you and the family well.

In section A, I call estimates debate for the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services.

Hon. R. Coleman: When I left this discussion on Thursday of last week with regard to PRIME, I was explaining to the House that PRIME actually works and how it works and the fact that we tested it in Vancouver, Port Moody and Richmond. I didn't have an opportunity at that point in time to give you an example of how it worked, because we ran out of time. We're now continuing the debate on second reading.

An example of this is that in the interior of British Columbia, some time ago a police patrol unit stopped a suspicious vehicle at 4 o'clock in the morning. The police officer questioned the driver and received information that he was known to be a person who would break and enter into premises. However, there were no warrants or conditions on which he could be held. The vehicle was filled with a collection of tools and toolboxes, all in plain view of the officers. The driver advised that they were his. One officer noticed a name written on one of the toolboxes in felt pen and queried the name in PRIME. The name was the same as that of a complainant of a residential break and enter the night before. The officers were able to bring up the B and E report on their notebook computer in the car, obtain the complainant's home telephone number and call him and get him to describe his missing tools. This resulted in the driver being arrested for possession of stolen property. Over $4,000 worth of tools were returned to the rightful owner within 12 hours of the offence being reported.

In the past, from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, that information would not have been in the hands of the police officer at the roadside. It is an actual fact that the information that's available at the roadside and the suspicious information that's observed at the roadside are what break many major cases in policing, in law enforcement. Prior to PRIME, this information and immediate access to the reports were not possible. What took the officers minutes to accomplish on the scene with PRIME in their cars would have taken hours of searching through reports at headquarters or trying to get information from neighbouring detachments or police departments. In the meantime, the suspect would have disappeared, that arrest would never have occurred, and the property in all likelihood would never have been returned to its owner.

In another example, police have used PRIME to make a positive identification of suspicious persons in violation of bail conditions because PRIME contained a link through the licence plate number of the person's car through CPIC. Yet another example shows how mug shots available through PRIME to police on patrol were able to identify a person who would not give his real name but for whom there were outstanding warrants.

PRIME has also been used to alert police ahead of time that they were responding to a situation where a person was emotionally disturbed or violent towards police, so they could take the necessary precautions in dealing with an incident. Previously police would have learned of the person's condition after arriving at the scene. Now the information is on hand for when they actually stop the vehicle or prior to arriving at the scene.

Our pilot project allowed us to test PRIME in the three locations. Once it is fully implemented, it can be used to enforce the law — just as effectively as these three examples indicate — across all municipal boundaries and across the entire province. Yet it is not intended that all information will be shared without regard to the event, the agencies involved or the sensitivity of the information. What is required is that key information be available at critical decision points. We

have the protections to protect the information within the system so that the public interest can be protected.

The amendments to the Police Act provide two core elements in support of PRIME. These are, first, the function of evaluating compliance respecting the information management systems given to the director of the police services division and, second, the requirement of law enforcement services to use and pay for the information management system.

One of the issues out there today is how much it will cost on an annual basis for police officers to actually have PRIME in their communities. We have other systems in the community today, information management systems in different police forces that cost about $300 per officer. PRIME will cost about $300 per officer and replace those systems. It's basically a wash for the municipalities, but the efficiency in policing and the fight against crime will benefit the communities exponentially beyond the $300 a year it will be for a police officer.

Along with creating the infrastructure, there's a requirement for the appropriate governance. Only the province is in the position to compel police agencies to use and pay for the system and establish the requisite standards for use. We will do that because it is the right thing to do. In the absence of the province establishing the governance framework, there would always be a risk that police agencies and local governments could opt out of the system, set differing standards or establish competing systems. That's not acceptable to us under any circumstances, because we don't want those borders and silos in policing that are created because somebody thinks they've got a better mousetrap. We want this to be consistent, we want it to be built on, and we want it to be the future of policing in British Columbia.

Apart from providing a legislative framework, the province is also leading this initiative by contributing the funding for the capital and developmental costs. In February 2002, $4.5 million was approved for the capital and development cost of PRIME, and in 2002-03 further millions were approved for 2003-04.

Police agencies will be required to pay fees for the operation and maintenance of the system, as I described a minute ago. Until now each agency has fully funded its own independent system, in some cases costing more per officer than this system will cost. The shared-resource model will split the cost among a large number of users, potentially resulting in the further benefit of cost-efficiencies for users. The amount of the fee will be based on the number of police officers and system users. The other nice thing about it, as I said last week and I will reiterate, is that this system doesn't need new equipment. It can actually operate on the existing platforms within the cars today.

Our police services division has worked closely with our justice partners, including the criminal justice branch, the court services branch — both in the Ministry of Attorney General — the corrections branch in my ministry and the joint information technology services division of the two ministries to coordinate the development and implementation of PRIME-BC and JUSTIN with the integrated justice project.

All police agencies in B.C., both RCMP and independent municipal departments, are represented on PRIME's steering committee and on the working groups. The B.C. Association of Chiefs of Police and the B.C. Association of Police Boards have been involved in a discussion on the benefits of PRIME and are looking forward to its implementation. With PRIME we are ready for the future. We are ready to link our information system with those of other police forces in Canada and even internationally.

As we move forward, different discussions will take place with regard to policing in this House. In Alberta we will read about the fact that the Solicitor General wants to institute something called AMBER alert and will make a great deal of the fact that the information has to be broadcast on AMBER alert through a relationship with media and what have you, when a young person goes missing. We will do that, but in addition to that, can you imagine the effect of having that information on the computer in real time for every police officer in the province of British Columbia? That is beyond what AMBER alert accomplishes.

To have it integrated into the information to deal with the sex offender registry in every car in the province versus a system that has to be checked up at a headquarters is a good move for this system. This system allows us to build on things in the future technology-wise as they come forward, because the platform is able to do that.

As Solicitor General I'm responsible to ensure adequate and effective policing, and I'm pretty pleased that the implementation of PRIME will enhance the capability of police forces of British Columbia to deliver this mandate. I think it's pretty special to find that one jurisdiction, with the leadership of our Premier and the leadership of our caucus and cabinet, has stepped up to the plate and said: "We are going to have one and only one records information management environment for all police officers in the province of British Columbia."

We will take the electronic data that is presently in all those jurisdictions and load it into PRIME. We will have the information at the roadside so that people will have the information they need to do their jobs and do police work better. It will assist us in meeting all types of commitments to our community, but it will be the breakthrough, in my opinion, that will break down the borders of policing forever.

We will deal with the other interjurisdictional issues as we move forward in policing. That's including integration, where it is not on and communities think they don't need to integrate their specialized operations like homicide, forensic guide and sex offender teams and those sort of things.

They must understand that the future of policing is community policing at a local level, on a visual level, with the police officer in each community and the overarching support integrated completely in all inves-

tigations with regard to crime. That integration program and strategy will move forward. There will be people that will have some bumps along the road as we move forward, but they must understand that this is the right thing to do, and when you do the right thing, the people that benefit are the citizens you're wanting to protect.

PRIME is a huge integration of information management. It is a huge integration of real-time information for police officers who within two years will have this in their cars at the roadside. But the trickle-up effect from a suspicious check on the side of a road that leads to a break in a homicide investigation for an integrated homicide team; the trickle-up effect of a suspicious person on the side of a road being checked and being arrested because they actually have an order that says they are not supposed to be in that community because it's protecting a spouse who's been abused; the trickle-up effect of a sex offender being caught before they can offend because they've breached their parole or their probation, because we had that information in real time in the car; the trickle-up effect of letting people know we are serious about the management of information in the fight against crime — that is what PRIME brings.

As that trickle-up effect takes place, there had better be an infrastructure above it that's integrated, which works across borders in every jurisdiction so that we don't have any silos in policing. I know that as we move forward, there is going to be some heated discussions on integration, but I know I have the support of this Legislature, my caucus, the cabinet and the Premier to make sure that integration in policing is effectively accomplished.

We cannot have information that is not available or not being investigated cross-jurisdictionally on serious crime, because somebody thinks their little territory is one that needs to be protected or that it's different than anybody else's. Criminals do not care about whether the border between two communities is a particular street. They don't care. They'll move across this province and across our municipalities and break the law. We need to be able to be flexible in order to respond to that type of activity, and we will be.

As we move forward, we're going to see a whole new era in policing in British Columbia. These amendments to the Police Act and the implementation of PRIME will greatly assist in meeting the new-era commitment of ensuring that all laws are equally applied and enforced in British Columbia and ensuring our strategic objective of safer streets and safer schools in every community.

We're going to have the information. We're going to have the integration. We're going to have, in some cases, the regionalization or even amalgamation. We are going to make sure we make the right decisions for policing, and it starts with this one. This one sends the message. This province is serious about having a provincially responsible policing operation of integrated information and sharing for investigative purposes to protect our citizens.

That's what PRIME is all about. PRIME sets the standard, and we move forward from here to build a strong, viable, professional, twenty-first-century police operation in the province. I am proud to be part of the government that had the temerity and that had the vision to move forward with a step like this for British Columbia.

S. Orr: I stand here today very, very proud of supporting this bill. This has shown wonderful leadership. What it has also shown is a minister that has a true understanding of policing issues not only in my riding but provincially, somebody that genuinely understands what it means to be out there, what it is to be a policeman or policewoman. What has been brought forward is something that I think is going to have a huge impact on the province but also a huge impact on the people out there called criminals, who will soon learn there are no boundaries.

I represent two of the biggest parts of this region, the city of Victoria and the municipality of Saanich. Both have their own large police forces. In the words of one of my mayors, Mayor Frank Leonard, when I asked him what he thought of PRIME, he said, "This is the best thing since sliced bread," and I think that is very true. I also live in a region with 13 boundaries. We have 13 regions, so we have police forces and we have RCMP.

Again, I have to thank the minister for enabling the police forces of Esquimalt and Victoria to amalgamate. That was a great start in having our police forces work together. Just imagine living in an area where there are 13 boundaries, and just imagine this area if we weren't introducing PRIME. You get to a boundary, like Oak Bay, and another police force takes over. There's no integration, and we're just talking about this region.

I am very, very pleased about this. I have a son-in-law who is a police sergeant. I have a daughter who is a 911 operator and a husband who, amongst other things, is a criminal lawyer. We talk a lot about crime and criminals, and how dangerous it is. Criminals are just bad people. There's no such thing as a good criminal. Criminals do not know boundaries, and they don't care about boundaries. In fact, the way it's been until now has been great for them, because they could go and commit a crime in, say, Saanich and end up in Sooke, which is only a matter of 20 miles away, and there still would be no integration. Imagine that — in this small area. Imagine the impact on the entire province.

PRIME, police records information management environment — that's a great name for it. We're finally going to manage information in the environment of crime and the police. This is a good name. This is a really good thing.

I also quite regularly go out with the Victoria police, Police Chief Battershill, who — I think it's about every three months — takes the time to go and do

overnights with his force for…. I think he does about three nights in a row. This enables him to stay very much in touch with what's happening on the streets. Every time I've been out with him I'm amazed at how fast and how efficient these people have to be. I was fortunate — or unfortunate, as you might think — last year to go out with them on Halloween. It was quite wild, actually. You realize just how dangerous it is. I was made to sit in the police car when the situations got dangerous, and that's happened quite often. A couple of times I've jumped out because I'm strong-willed and realized that it is a very dangerous situation out there.

But the great thing about PRIME is this: it's not just about the cross-boundaries. It's also a protection for the police. This, as I said, is important because I have a son-in-law who is a policeman. A policeman can now pull somebody over, he can go to his computer, and he can punch in and find out a whole bunch of stuff about this person. Now he can tell immediately if that person is dangerous. We heard, in the past, of police that have been shot when they've gone to get a driver's licence or of some terrible criminal activity that's taken the life of a policeperson. Now our police force are armed with a tool so they can see immediately that they personally are in danger and can deal with it appropriately. That also is incredibly important. It makes the situation much better for the policeman or the policewoman. There are now no surprises. We don't want surprises in this business. We want to make sure that we know who these people are, what they're doing and how dangerous they are.

The association of police chiefs actually requested this in 1996. Technology, as we all know, is moving at a rapid rate, and even then, they knew they needed something like this. It was just an incredible thing for our police chiefs when they knew that this was finally going to become a reality. This happened because of this minister, because he knew that this had to be done quickly and efficiently not only for the safety of our police force, for the safety of our citizens and for the safety of the province, but because he understands it is time to come to grips with criminals. Criminals are bad people, and we can never have enough tools to put them away.

I just feel that with what has been introduced, with PRIME and with everything that's going to…. I really believe that this is just the best thing, as the mayor of Saanich said, since sliced bread. Finally the public will be safer, and finally we'll be able to put the criminals where they absolutely deserve to be, and that is locked up. As you can tell, I'm very effusive about this. This is nothing but a good-news story and something that this Solicitor General has brought forward fast and efficiently, and he has my 100 percent support.

Hon. J. Murray: I'm very pleased to have the chance to address the House on Bill 12, the Solicitor General's crime prevention project. For too long now, our municipal police departments and RCMP detachments have had difficulty exchanging information. Criminals sometimes escaped punishment by crossing a regional boundary into a jurisdiction where police had little or no information about the suspect or their crime. The Police Amendment Act, 2003, will give police the information management system they need to make sure that criminals don't get away just because they flee the region. As my colleagues have already noted, PRIME-BC will connect every municipal police department and RCMP detachment in B.C. and will significantly modernize the way police officers apprehend criminals.

People living in New Westminster are proud of our community and proud of our strong police force, but New Westminster residents are concerned about the level of street races, car thefts, illegal drug use and crime on our streets and in our parks. One New Westminster resident recently felt compelled to fight back against crime in his community — without much regard to his own safety, actually. When he found a man going through the trunk of a co-worker's car, he gave chase, he cornered the man, and he refused to back off until the suspect pulled out a screwdriver and threatened to stab him. Even as the suspect ran, this concerned citizen called 911 on his cell phone, and New Westminster police were able to nab the culprit. It turns out that the Surrey RCMP had a warrant out for his arrest for breach of probation. This is just a quick example of how our communities and police forces are cooperating to make our streets safer. We can't say for sure if this criminal would have been picked up sooner if PRIME-BC was already up and running, but it would have provided an additional tool.

Right now police departments and detachments use different computer systems and databases and often collect information in a way that proves difficult to share. Bill 12 will bring consistency and a strong system of cooperation amongst police throughout the province. The provincial government, along with communities and police throughout B.C., is moving towards one goal: improving people's lives now and in the future.

This government is keeping its promise to British Columbians. We're committed to pursuing better ways of preventing and combatting crime and of making our streets and our communities safer for people. This new technology will help us do that. I would like to congratulate the Solicitor General, his staff and police forces across B.C. on this innovative and significant crime-fighting system.

J. Bray: I rise with great pleasure to support Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003, and to support both the concept of PRIME as well as the actual software itself and what it's going to mean to policing in the province and certainly in my community of Victoria.

As the member for Victoria-Hillside pointed out, I come from Victoria, where we have 13 municipalities in the capital region. However, criminals don't recognize those borders. Criminals don't say: "Oops, this is actually going into Saanich. Maybe I'll stop here."

Criminals don't respect those borders whatsoever. We have phenomenal police officers throughout the capital region in all the various detachments and forces, but the reality is that they have limits — under current technology and current ways — in which information is shared. What this bill does, and what PRIME will do, is break down those borders. It provides the tools for police officers at the street level to deal effectively as they interact with individuals in our community.

I want to spend just a moment and talk about the Victoria police, because quite often in our society the only time police ever get any mention is if something negative happens or there's some criticism. Day in and day out the police officers in our communities across this province, and certainly in Victoria, work 12-hour shifts dealing with difficult, dangerous and complex situations every hour they're on the job. They don't do it because they want to make lots of money. Police officers, although they're paid well, are certainly not the highest-paid people in our society. Police officers do it because they have a personal commitment to our community. They have a personal commitment to the streets, to the people, to the children and to the seniors that live in our community. That's why they do that job, just as firefighters do. Police officers are committed to our community.

It's incumbent on us as legislators to recognize that commitment among our police officers. They are among the unsung heroes of our community. They're out there every day and every night on our behalf, and they keep our streets safe. They deal with the people who are the most difficult in our society. We as legislators should recognize that, and we should honour our police officers every single day. What I'm so pleased about with Bill 12, and with PRIME, is that it recognizes that there are times when leadership can provide the tools to the front-line officers so they can do exactly what they want to do, which is to provide safety and protection for our communities.

The Victoria police have had a long and distinguished history here in British Columbia as being one of the stellar police forces and one of the first police forces in the province. They have an unbridled commitment to our community. They have been innovative and creative all the way along, way back to the Hudson's Bay days. But recently a very significant issue occurred in the capital region that I think has made policing that much more effective here in the capital region.

I'm speaking of the amalgamation of the Victoria police force with the Esquimalt police force to help break down those barriers and to provide better coordination on issues such as forensic science, homicide investigations and other special task forces, and in recognition that our officers deserve the best training available. They deserve the best opportunities and the best supports available, and this amalgamation has allowed the capital region to have a dynamic, modern, progressive police force patrolling our streets both in Victoria and in Esquimalt.

There are winners in this, and there are losers in this. The winners are the members of the community. The losers are the criminals, because now they're dealing with a more coordinated police force, a more communicative police force, better trained officers and better use of our resources. What PRIME will do is further enhance that. It will ensure that when a crime is committed in Prince George and that criminal, that suspect, makes their way down to Victoria and is on our streets — potentially evading prosecution, perhaps planning more crime — if our police officers on the ground do a roadside stop or do some other sort of investigation and find that individual and look on PRIME, they will know immediately that this is a person who has a warrant up in Prince George, that this person is potentially dangerous and potentially violent, and that person will be off the streets.

That wouldn't happen without PRIME. The police may do a check, a roadside check, and let that person go. Two or three days later they get the paper information from the fax machine that that person just committed or was a suspect in a violent crime in Prince George. By then it's too late, and they may, in fact, have committed another crime. PRIME allows police officers to have that tool of information in real time in their patrol car. The difference that that will make for public safety cannot be underestimated. The difference that that will make for our police officers to be able to do their job as effectively as they want to cannot be underestimated.

The other thing that's really critical with this particular issue is that the province is taking the lead not just in legislation, not just in mandating this and saying, "Go forth, police forces, and deal with this," but we have provided the leadership in the technical delivery of this system, in the testing and the funding of this system. For police forces, all that's going to be required is to provide the service in their patrol car. In some cases it will be less expensive than the current systems they're operating.

We have actually shown the leadership not just in modern policing and not just the legislative framework, but we have put our money where our mouths are to ensure that police forces can actually operate with this and have enhanced service because they're not having to deal with a huge amount of cost. They can use the same equipment that they have in order to operate PRIME. That's the kind of technological study that's important. That's the kind of innovation and work that the civil service in the Ministry of Solicitor General did to ensure that this works for everybody.

The last thing I want to speak about, Mr. Speaker — because I know there are other members who wish to speak — is that this is showing the kind of leadership we talked about in our New Era document. I heard the Solicitor General, as he started off debate, talk about one of our commitments, which is improved safety and improved communities, safe communities and safe schools. Well, the police want that as well. They've always wanted that, but sometimes, if they're not given

PRIME is a tool that will allow them to make our streets safer, our schools safer, our communities safer right now — not five, six, seven, eight years out, but right now. That impact will make all of us feel safer. In Victoria, which is a growing urban centre, this kind of tool will make a visible difference for us, for our tourists that come here and for our schools. I for one welcome it, and I know that we have one of the best police forces in Canada under Chief Paul Battershill. They've been part of this, they've tested this, and they have shown that it works. I'm just so pleased we're providing this tool to the rest of the province, because it will make a big difference.

R. Hawes: Like my colleagues, I rise to speak in support of this bill which, as my colleagues previously have mentioned, is really good news in this province — bad news for criminals, but good news for the people of the province, good news for lowering crime rates in this province.

I want to come at this from a slightly different perspective than my colleagues have to date. I want to talk for a minute about what happens about every August in every city hall across this province. That's when the city councils begin its deliberations for the next year's budget. Every city council that governs a city over 5,000 people pays for its local police. The larger communities pay 90 percent of the cost of the police. Every year there's a struggle between the local city council and the police department, whether it be RCMP or a private police force, about hiring new policemen. They're very expensive.

As everyone knows, in every level of government and in every household generally, there is a budget struggle over various issues on a fairly frequent basis. At city halls there are all kinds of competing needs for money, and the police are but one of those competing needs. So what happens every year is that the police put forward their case for new policemen, and the city council tries to find a compromise that's going to provide some more police protection but not everything the police have asked for, because they don't have the money to do it.

This is a tool that increases the efficiency, potentially, of police on the ground as they work. Anything that can increase the efficiency of police helps in that debate over how many policemen you should have. This is not a reason to have fewer policemen, but it is a means of making those policemen that you have on the ground much, much more effective. They're not spending time particularly on paper files, and there's still a lot of cities in this province that run on paper files. PRIME eliminates paper files. This is a huge step forward.

I want to just mention that I went on a ride-around some years ago — before there were on-board computers in the city I live in, in Mission — as the mayor of Mission. I went on a ride-around in a police car, and as calls came in from the dispatch centre for emergency dispatching, the officer would pull over to the side of the road, get out his little piece of paper and write down some file numbers and other things. I asked him: "Gee, you know, this sounds like a real emergency. Why aren't we rushing to get there?" And he said, "Well, I have to get this stuff down first. I have to write down the time and the file number." All of these details really were delaying him in where he was going.

One of the calls we attended was a domestic dispute. There was no information about the people that were involved. As he explained to me as we went there, one of the most dangerous things for a police officer is to go to domestic disputes, because you never know what you're going to get into. Quite often you don't know the full history of the people that are involved in the domestic dispute. They're very, very dangerous. PRIME provides the kind of information, or should be providing the kind of information, that a police officer needs when he goes into that kind of situation. From a public safety or a police safety perspective, this is certainly a great improvement.

I can tell you that some years ago, there was a psychiatric release from a forensic psychiatric institution into my community. The police were not notified properly. There were conditions on this person, who was quite dangerous, and he went missing. He didn't report in where he was supposed to report in. The police were dispatched to go and basically pick him up. They didn't know anything about this person's history — nothing. They didn't know he was in the community, and they didn't know how dangerous he potentially was when they went to knock on his door. That's the kind of thing that puts not just the police but the community at large in danger. I would hope we would be able to get that kind of information on PRIME, and I'm quite sure that it will be.

I think back to a previous life when I was the manager of a bank. I recall a situation where somebody came in and cashed Olympic coins, if you remember those — $100 Olympic coins, he had. It was a very unusual situation, and he wasn't exactly a wholesome-looking person trying to cash these coins in. He was delayed at the counter while the staff made phone calls to the police to ask about these coins: "Were there any reported thefts of Olympic coins?" The answer came back: "No, there were no thefts." So this fellow was given $100 for each of the coins.

Within a couple of hours the police showed up wanting to take possession of the coins because, indeed, they were stolen. The information had taken a long time to travel between police departments. In fact, the bank was out the money. This is an example where PRIME would have that out immediately. Likely the perpetrator would have been apprehended right there at the bank. The bank would not have been out the money. The person who lost the coins originally got the coins back ultimately through the police, I think, but the perpetrator got away. That's the kind of thing that PRIME would help stop.

I think about a situation in Mission a couple of years ago. There was a covert police operation going on where police from another city were following somebody. They had information he was going to do a break-in with a partner on some business. They didn't know where, so they had him under surveillance. They were from a different community, and they were unable to communicate or didn't communicate with the Mission RCMP to tell them they had followed him into Mission and were observing what he was doing.

He, in fact, broke into a business within the district of Mission. As the police from another city closed in to make an arrest, he got in his car and rammed theirs and escaped. As he escaped, he drove past a routine patrol car from the district of Mission's RCMP detachment, and they took up chase. They didn't know he had been part of a break-in. They didn't know anything about the history, and there was no way for these two police vehicles that were involved to communicate with each other. So they chased him because he was speeding. They chased him across the bridge into the Abbotsford area. He was going too fast. They dropped off in the chase, but the perpetrator ultimately rammed an innocent person driving in a car which was pulling out of a service station. A young fellow was killed. An innocent victim was killed.

That's the kind of thing that probably could have been averted. With communication between these police forces, it's very likely that the Mission police would have been providing some kind of backup to this covert operation, watching this fellow break into a business in Mission. It's not possible under today's communication, because there is just no coordinated communication vehicle or records management system in this province.

PRIME does provide that. I have talked to the police in my own community and in other communities about this. It's strange, you know, that many police seem to think the platform they're operating on is the best one and that everyone should adopt theirs. The problem is that they're all somewhat different, and they don't communicate with each other. What it has taken is some leadership to just say: "Look, this is it. This is the system that is going to be adopted in this province." It has some great innovative things to it. It provides many, many features that other communications or records management systems in police forces don't provide. The biggest thing — and it's been mentioned here today — is real-time communication. Having ridden around with the police and not being a policeman but being impressed with the kinds of things they do, I can tell you I can understand how that's such an important addition to the tools in the police toolbox.

On the ride-around that I was on with the police, a call came in dispatching the police to arrest a fellow that had beaten up his girlfriend, and he was 6 foot 8 and 250 pounds. That's the only description they had — and blonde hair. We went to the address — I can tell you the police were pretty nervous about it; I certainly was — and he wasn't there. As it turned out, he was at a local beer parlour. The police went to the beer parlour. Now, they're looking for a 6-foot-8, 250-pound fellow. He's probably not very difficult to spot, but there were no pictures of him available. They could only go by the fact that he was 6 foot 8. That's what distinguished him from the rest of the crowd.

PRIME would have put a picture of this fellow right in the police car. They would have known exactly who they were looking for. In fact, what they wound up having to do was wait outside the bar for a huge guy to come out, and try to make an arrest there. They probably would have done it differently had they known what this fellow looked like as he was sitting in the bar. There probably would have been a better and safer way to make this arrest.

Ultimately, the arrest was made, and nobody got hurt, but I can tell you I know how nervous those policemen were. I know how many policemen came to provide each other with backup, because when you get somebody that sounds that large and, as it turned out, is a fairly angry person, there is some danger.

PRIME puts a big tool in the hands of police, but it also safeguards innocent victims like the bank when it's cashing a $100 coin or somebody who might be the victim of a car chase as it crosses municipal boundaries from one community to another. There may be more ability for the police in the next community to avert or to stop the fleeing person.

The other thing, and the last thing, is the potential improvement in efficiencies of the police as they work. That makes a huge difference, as I said, as the manpower in each police department is debated each year by local city councils. At the very least, as we put the policemen that we do on the street at great expense to municipalities, if we can make them more efficient, if we can help them clear more files so they're carrying in their own personal portfolio fewer open police files and help them close those files quicker, it not only improves statistics…. I know the Progress Board has reported that we are tenth out of ten provinces in crime rates in this country. If this assists us to break some of those cases, to close files, to improve our statistical performance, that assists us in proving that this is a safe and a great place to live. We all know it is, but those statistics are very troublesome. PRIME is going to help a lot with those stats.

Everything about this is right, so I'd like to commend the Solicitor General for having the foresight and the courage to stand up to those who would not want to see a unified information management system and to put this through across the whole province. As the Solicitor General said, this is it. There's going to be one records information system. I commend him for it, and I know this is going to unroll very smoothly.

J. Nuraney: I also rise in support of this bill, as my other colleagues have. It is once again an example of where this government is going. The government took upon itself a mandate to bring in all the new techno-

logical tools that were available out there to make sure we use these tools and technology for the maximum benefit of British Columbians. I would like to read to you the vision this ministry has set upon itself.

The vision says: "To make people feel safe at home and in their communities and have confidence in the efficiency, effectiveness, responsiveness and integrity of corrections programs and policing." This brings forth the effectiveness and responsiveness that the Solicitor General has in mind. PRIME is a technology that will help to integrate all the different police forces in this province.

I've had the opportunity to chair the police complaints commission review process, and while we were conducting this process, we received several submissions where people were complaining about the way our policing was taking place. One of the things that was also very strong in the message we got was the difficulties the police themselves were having in doing their job efficiently. PRIME, I think, will help bring about the sense of efficiency and sense of effectiveness that our police forces really need.

More importantly, it is a question of integration. The Solicitor General, in the final analysis, has this vision that at some point in time, he would like to make sure that all policing in our province comes under an umbrella of integrated services. Having said that, it is very important that any tool we can give the police forces to make their work easier and more efficient is something to be commended.

We in Burnaby have several SkyTrain stations. One of our problems that is a reason for this facility, which is indeed a facility for our people living in Burnaby, is the element of crime.

As you know, criminals have also established for themselves a sense of sophistication in how they commit these crimes and also the speed with which they do this. This technology that the Solicitor General is bringing about in Bill 12 is something that is going to help deter these kinds of criminal activities that are taking place in and around the SkyTrain stations. The efficiency of being able to exchange information, the availability of records at your fingertips as and when you need them, and the ability to identify the people who are recurrently engaged in these kinds of activities are indeed great things that are going to happen for us once this system is introduced.

As you also know, we have seen the increase over time of criminal activities that are taking place in greater Vancouver and indeed in British Columbia. One of the reasons why it is also taking place, I think, is the sense of not being caught that exists among criminals. That is also because of the lack of technology, of information and of coordination among police forces that is there right now.

I believe that PRIME, which is state-of-the-art in technology of this kind, will certainly bring about a sense of security for the people who live in our riding, in our community and in British Columbia. I think this bill will indeed enhance the sense of security and safety our people will feel. I fully support this bill.

E. Brenzinger: It gives me great pleasure to rise to speak to Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003. A key component of the bill deals with a new computer system for the police called the police records information management environment, or PRIME. Up to now, B.C.'s police departments have used a variety of different computers and data systems, and this made it difficult for different detachments and departments to share information.

Criminals don't care about municipal borders. They don't care about operating according to police jurisdiction boundaries. This is why moving to a more modern integrated system is necessary if we are going to make our streets safer.

PRIME will integrate existing police information systems to assist in breaking down the silo effect of fighting crime. It will connect every municipal police department and RCMP detachment across British Columbia, giving them shared access to information about criminals and crimes within minutes. This is good news for the residents of Surrey-Whalley. In Surrey we have an RCMP detachment, while Vancouver has its own municipal task force. PRIME will make it easier for the Surrey RCMP and the Vancouver police department to work together to solve crimes and catch criminals.

Car theft is a good example of how the system will assist police across B.C. to gather and track the necessary information to crack down on thieves. We currently know that there are approximately 4,000 auto thefts a year in Surrey. PRIME will make it possible for information that is input at the side of the road about an auto theft in Surrey to be available within minutes to an officer on the road in Langley, who may happen to see the stolen vehicle and can take appropriate action. It is my hope that by moving to this fully integrated system, we will see those numbers start to drop.

PRIME will also save officers valuable time, as information previously input does not need to be re-entered. Under this system, when a driver's licence is swiped, the information will be put in appropriate boxes automatically. This means officers will be able to spend more time catching criminals instead of being tied up with paperwork.

Our new-era vision is to create safer communities throughout B.C. This bill is an important part of seeing that vision through. Another step towards building safer communities was announced in the throne speech. I am speaking of the dialogue on crime, which will bring together community leaders, MLAs, law enforcement experts and others in pursuit of better ways to prevent and combat crime in our schools and on our streets.

In Surrey-Whalley we are also taking an active stance to make our community safer. Recently I hosted a community seniors safety and information meeting in response to a series of home invasions in which innocent residents were attacked. The majority of the victims were elderly. At this meeting it was determined that we must be vigilant in spotting suspicious activity,

recording important details and offering accurate reports to the police. Presenters also provided tips on personal safety and how to secure our homes. They showed us that we all have an important role to play in preventing these acts of violence in our community.

Bill 12 is an important step forward in solving and preventing crimes. In fact, we will become possibly the first jurisdiction in North America where actual real-time police information and investigational tools are in every area of our province on the exact same system. PRIME will truly transform the way police work is done. It is an excellent example of how, by giving our police the tools, we can make our streets, our schools and our communities a safer place.

The residents of Surrey-Whalley will certainly be pleased that this government is following through on making our streets safer by taking this step in providing our police with the latest technology, and it is welcomed by all. It is especially welcomed by my constituents of Surrey-Whalley, who will no doubt see an impact on crime in our riding.

I. Chong: I, too, rise in support of Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003. From the outset I also want to say that I offer my wholehearted support. I think it is time that the Police Act was reviewed. It is time that amendments were made to it to bring us into the twenty-first century.

This amendment to the Police Act is particularly important in this day and age, when technology is moving so very quickly. Criminals have the most sophisticated tools and machinery — if that's what you would like to call it — to use in their productivity, to use for their betterment. We have to allow our law enforcement officials the opportunity to have the most sophisticated tools in their hands, to be able to battle with the criminals.

This legislation is about expanding the police records and information management environment in this province. It is about fighting crime. It is about enhancing public safety. It is about improving law enforcement. Who here in this chamber would not agree that that is very, very necessary in this day and age?

About three years ago — I think it was in the year 2000 — I had the opportunity to do a number of police ride-alongs. It's been some time since I have done that. I represent a riding that encompasses two municipalities, Oak Bay–Gordon Head, one of which is in the larger municipality of Saanich. Back in the year 2000, I contacted those municipalities as well as the Victoria police department, because I know a number of my constituents have their businesses downtown. I felt all three departments deserved my attention at that time. So I went on these police ride-alongs. I was out there about four or eight hours — I think six hours, at the most, in one ride-along — so it was quite a long shift that I was there with them.

I can tell you that each municipality was very distinct in its own way. In Oak Bay we're mostly residential, and we spent our time driving around the parks and the homes and the communities to see what kind of activity was around. Because it's a small municipality, we probably circled it about 20 times that evening. We'd come into the station, have a small break, and we'd go back out again. I saw what the police officers were dealing with.

At that time they introduced me to another information management tool they had, which was CPIC. I know that the member for Bulkley Valley–Stikine spoke last week and spoke more broadly of CPIC. He has more knowledge, more firsthand knowledge of that. I can tell you that the police officer, who shared that information with me, explained that while it was a great tool, it really was very outdated. Sometimes while they were logging in and pulling up information, it would crash or would be ineffective for a number of hours — perhaps because it's a Canadian system, and it's not locally administered here. They had to depend on another locality to input that information for them to be able to have up-to-date information. In fact, it wasn't even that up to date.

So I heard about the CPIC. I heard him talking about the necessary tools they need and the day they could look ahead, when we would have something that was more real, on-line and real-time, to be able to fight the elements of crime. He said: "You know, I've heard about this. People have talked about it. I just hope it's around by the time I retire." Unfortunately, that officer I rode with retired about a year and a half later. He is not now seeing the benefits of this amendment to the Police Act, which will provide for this very important tool.

When I rode along with the municipality of Saanich police officials, it was quite different as well. It's a much larger municipality — in fact, one of the largest in terms of land base, particularly here in greater Victoria. We went through all the residential neighbourhoods. There are also some business areas and business districts in Saanich, and we rode through those areas as well. The police officers would point out to me: "Well, we know what activity takes place in that house. We know who lives in this place. The fact that this car is home in that driveway is a good sign." I would ask why. He would say: "Well, that means he's here and not out there committing a crime."

They would know that there were some households — in fact, there would be those who resided there, whether they owned the property or rented — that have come up on their records time and time again. It would always depend on what records they had. They may not always know what that particular individual had done in another municipality. Again, those officers spoke to me and advised me that it would be nice to know what's happening across the border, even though it's only moments away.

When I rode in the police car with the officers from the city of Victoria — quite another perspective that I had to look at, because that, in fact, did contain the business district, many of the businesses which were under siege from the elements in the wee hours of the

morning…. Because I rode around with this particular officer, we only had a certain area. Being a larger city, one where there are so many facets, officers are divided up into areas, and they have to constantly patrol that.

We were in a particular area which did include the downtown, and I saw all the people on the streets that were there. I saw just people walking. In my mind I just thought they were people leaving one place, heading home, going to work or whatever, but the police officers knew. They knew who these people were, and they said: "Well, we'll just drive along this road. We'll make a circle around, and we'll come back and just see where they go. If they duck into an alley, we'll send somebody around to look." These people are known to them. Again I thought, what if they left here and went to another jurisdiction? How would we know? That's why it is so important that we have this integration. That is why it is so important to be able to interact with other police officers even in a small area here in greater Victoria.

I can go into one area of greater Victoria and be through three municipalities in less than 15 minutes. If I start in Saanich South — say in the Broadmead area — and drive through Mount Doug park to Shelbourne Street, which is Gordon Head, the area I represent, and then turn right along Hillside Avenue, I'd be into the Victoria municipality. I can do that all within 15 minutes. If I want to circle back, I would be in Oak Bay in another five or seven minutes. So in a matter of 20 minutes, I will have gone through three municipalities. Four electoral areas are represented by that. These three municipalities each have police departments: Saanich, Oak Bay and Victoria.

It's very important that we know that as easy as I as an individual or any taxpayer or citizen can move out throughout their municipality, so, too, can those who commit crimes, and they do this. They do this on an hourly basis. They do this on a daily basis. Whatever means we can have to track them, to find out what they're up to, is going to be a day where we can enforce the law in a much better way and where our citizens can feel safer.

It is important for us to be able to use the benefits of this new sophisticated tool. As the Solicitor General indicated when he introduced this act, it's revolutionary. I absolutely agree; it is revolutionary. It's important and it's necessary. I know — as members rise after me and speak, and as those before me have said — that each and every one of us who cares about our community and who cares about public safety will rise up in support of this. I can't imagine anyone who would not support this, except the criminals, and that's just too bad.

Another incident occurred not too long ago in my area. That had to do with a dangerous sex offender who had been released. It was in the paper, so I know it's public knowledge. He had been released, actually, in the Victoria area, but he made his way into Oak Bay. In fact, he alarmed many of my constituents. I was alarmed for them as well, because immediately they felt their safety was jeopardized. The way they went about doing their business every day was compromised. They did not even feel safe to walk out of their homes into their front yards or to go to the grocery store, knowing that there could be someone out there and wondering if the police have the tools to watch and monitor what is happening.

I believe this is the step that is going to allow us to provide that extra measure of comfort, of feeling safe, to our citizens. This new information management system will break down those barriers that previously were not allowing departments to communicate with each other. I know that in my area, in Oak Bay, people will be very, very pleased about that.

Home invasions are also an ever-increasing crime that occurs. Because I represent a residential area with many seniors, I know it's very, very important for them to know that we are looking at home invasions and will ensure that they will be kept under control and that enforcement will be very, very strong in this area. With this new information management system, I think — again, as other speakers have said — the information will be posted that much more quickly and will allow that much more opportunity for our law enforcement officials to ensure home invasions that occur, perhaps a few minutes away, will be able to be stopped before they occur in another area. We know that when people burglarize or there are home invasions, sometimes they occur within a matter of an hour; three or four houses are struck. When cars are vandalized, sometimes a whole string of them are vandalized en route from one place to another. If they cross a boundary, if they cross a border, will that officer know? In the past, perhaps not, but now they will.

I just wanted to be able to rise this morning to offer my comments on Bill 12, because I think it's very important. I think all members are going to appreciate the value that this is going to bring to their communities — the public safety value that none of us will ever, ever be able to measure. I applaud the Solicitor General for bringing this initiative forward. I applaud all the municipal police departments and RCMP detachments across British Columbia who have worked with him, who have shared with him their frustrations and the solutions, because only in working together are we going to be able to find solutions so that we can all move forward together in this twenty-first century.

L. Mayencourt: It's a pleasure to stand in support of Bill 12. I believe that this is a revolutionary document, a revolutionary bill in the history of British Columbia. This is absolutely leading edge, and it is the most significant advancement in police services in our country's history and certainly in our province. The introduction of PRIME gives police officers the tools to coordinate their efforts to fight crime. My community is one of those that has been part of the pilot process for this particular crime-fighting tool. We're very satisfied that this is an excellent addition to the police force's set of tools to fight crime and make our streets safer.

Today we're unleashing a very powerful tool that will help us fight crime in every community and make our streets safer. Included in this bill are provisions for the orderly implementation of this new database. It requires the various police forces to manage their ongoing maintenance in a coordinated fashion, and it requires them to employ good governance on all issues of the maintenance of that particular program.

My question, as I think about this bill, is: how many lives are really affected by crime? In British Columbia, so many of us, as members of this Legislature, have spoken to families of people that were victims of crime, and we feel a deep sense of compassion for those individuals. I also want to know just how many lives might be affected by this and how many lives might be saved.

I grew up in the municipality of Surrey, and for the last 25 years I've lived in the city of Vancouver. In my teens, I grew up in an era of great fear. We had a series of abductions of young children in our community, which later resulted in the charges against Clifford Olson. In Vancouver we have had for the last several years an ongoing issue of missing women from the downtown east side. These are women that are typically working in the sex trade or are affected by the drug culture in that community. Many of those people were disenfranchised and did not have family supports that could help the police link all of their particular stories together to help them uncover the mystery of why they were disappearing.

People in our community really want to know that they're safe. They want to know there's an effort being made by community police services to ensure that their streets and their communities are safe. They have an absolute right to that. They want to know that we are going to work together.

When I reflect on the case of the missing women in the downtown east side and I reflect on the case of the missing children in Surrey in the late seventies, I know that the only way we were able to finally solve those cases was when police forces from different jurisdictions were able to share information in as quick a way as possible and coordinate their efforts to find the perpetrators. That's an important thing, and PRIME allows us to do that.

I'm very supportive of this particular bill. I also want to join with the member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head to say that it's very important that we applaud the efforts of the police services across this province — their agreement to select one system that will coordinate their efforts and that will help them to fight crime in communities throughout British Columbia.

I know there are many speakers that wish to talk to this issue, so I don't want to take too much time. I just wanted to make sure the people of my community know that this is an important tool that will help our community be safer, that it will be maintained properly, that it will be subject to good governance and that this will, in effect, provide a safer community not only in Vancouver-Burrard but throughout the province.

K. Johnston: I'm happy to rise today and speak to Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003. I think it's really clear from the list of speakers that have put down their names to talk today how important it is for this bill to be put forward. This is basically an information technology bill, and I've never seen one like this create such interest.

I was taken by the comments of the member for Bulkley Valley–Stikine last week when he talked about his experience as a young police officer in British Columbia. He talked about call boxes and flashing blue lights and the lack of communication and the very, very hard things he had to face when he was trying to do his job. It struck me that we've come an awful long way, but really not far enough.

When I was a young fellow growing up in Vancouver-Fraserview, like everybody else and like society at that time, doors were wide open and people were welcomed into your home. If you had a screen door lock, that was a big event. Of course, over the last lot of years, society has changed, the world has changed, and now when you walk around urban areas like the area of Vancouver-Fraserview, you see a lot of bars, a lot of barricaded homes. That is strictly because the whole attitude, the whole situation towards crime, has changed. There's now a tremendous, tremendous fear of crime, breaking and enterings, home invasions and, recently, absolutely disgusting cowardly attacks on seniors in their own residences.

You know, in Vancouver, according to statistics put forward, 81 percent of all crimes are property crimes. That is pretty telling stuff, I think, when you're talking about the fear and the B and Es and the situation in homes. It wasn't too long ago that if a police car was chasing somebody down Knight Street, for example, in Vancouver and they crossed a bridge going into another municipality like Richmond, there was absolutely no way of communicating other than maybe a phone call to each detachment, back and forth to each police organization to try to track. That wasn't that long ago. I think we're making great strides. Certainly, the PRIME initiative will in fact do that in the future.

In my experience in the civic arena, I was once given the opportunity to go to a police station after a great rash of breaking and enterings in an area. There was a task force put forward in that police station in terms of trying to track down the criminals. The most surprising thing, and the thing that struck me the most, was…. I remember being taken into a room, and there was this massive 8-by-10 or 8-by-12 wall, and on that wall were Polaroid pictures of everybody involved in B and Es that had been identified by the police. Under the names of the various pictures — and it covered the whole wall — they had the locations where the people had come from. It had every municipality in the lower mainland: New Westminster, Burnaby, Surrey, Richmond, Vancouver. It had them all there. So the police knew where these folks were coming from. They were coming in, basically in flying squads, to do B and Es and then leaving that municipality immediately, be-

cause the criminals knew there was no communication between the police. There was no communication, so they could have that stuff fenced in another municipality well before any communications took place.

Well, I believe Mr. Criminal should be told that those days are, in fact, over. I think the initiative with PRIME is going to put a big dent in the criminals' attitude in terms of being able to get away scot-free from municipality to municipality. We had a demonstration of a particular PRIME, and it was very amazing to see how they eventually will be able to take pictures and pass them on screens from police car to police car. That will go a long way in determining who these criminals are and in communications.

One part that really struck me about this whole thing…. If you've ever had a personal experience — and I have — with regard to somebody who's gone missing, there was a great lack of coordination in terms of pictures or letting other police departments know that somebody was in fact missing. It really was a paper trail of faxes and information and phone calls and stuff like that. It's very, very scary for families when somebody goes missing and they know that the police don't have the ability to communicate or show the picture or really bring attention to that particular individual. I believe PRIME will be a great thing for that particular missing-person experience in terms of tracking them down and speeding up the process of trying to find these folks when they go missing.

The Oppal commission in 1994, the inquiry into policing in British Columbia, indicated that information-sharing was a very, very key recommendation of that inquiry. I think this initiative by the Solicitor General is, in fact, addressing that.

I'd like to, if I might, quote the Vancouver city council, who have been involved in the PRIME project since 1998, I believe. I just want to read what a report from council says: "Council has been a strong supporter of the PRIME-BC project. Mobile reporting means that officers can remain deployable in the community for longer periods. The sharing of information means that more criminals will be identified and that solve rates will improve, positively affecting public safety." That's from the experience of people who have actually done the trial on this system.

For me the bottom line in all of this is, in fact, that the police officer will have more time to actually do what he was trained to do, and that is being a professional police officer on the street as opposed to standing around filling out forms. That will be a great community thing for us. Speaking of community, I do believe — I have to put a plug in — that at the end of the day the community has to help in taking back the streets. Through community initiatives and community involvements and community policing initiatives, that will also assist greatly in dealing with criminals in our society.

I just want to speak quickly of an organization in Vancouver-Fraserview called the Bobolink Park Patrol, which is a group of citizens that decided to take back an area around a park called Bobolink Park because of nighttime parties and street racing and all kinds of illicit activities. This group went out and, as citizens, did what good citizens should do. They made it difficult for the criminal element to operate. So I want to take my hat off to them.

The bottom line, again, with this PRIME…. PRIME is a giant step in the right direction of taking back the streets from the bad guys. It is just one step of a puzzle that we have to do in order to reduce crime in our communities. I am fully supportive of this initiative, and I thank the Solicitor General for taking the lead in Canada in this particular initiative.

T. Christensen: It's indeed my pleasure to stand and enthusiastically endorse Bill 12, the Police Amendment Act, 2003. I think the Solicitor General has really come forward with a small piece of legislation that will have a very big effect on reducing crime and on our communities' ability to catch criminals throughout the province.

This is forward-thinking and long-overdue legislation. It really came as a bit of a surprise to me when the legislation was first introduced — and we found out what it was about and how this new PRIME information system was going to work — that, in fact, it didn't already exist. I think most citizens around the province and most members of our communities would probably assume that at this point in time, police in Vernon are quite able to share information closely with the police in Kelowna or with the police in the lower mainland or, for that matter, with police right across the province or right across the country. Unfortunately, that's simply not true. They're able to pick up the phone and use the fax machine and some technology to transfer information, but until now there hasn't been something that really provides access to information around the province in real time.

As we all know, if we think about it, good information is the foundation of all strong police work. Without information, really, we're handcuffing our law enforcement officials in terms of their ability to assist in protecting our communities. There's no question that whether it's the RCMP or it's one of the municipal forces around the province, there is some very good police work being done throughout British Columbia. I think what this new PRIME information-sharing system is going to do is allow the good police work that's perhaps being done by the RCMP in my community to be shared with the RCMP in other parts of the province, as well as the municipal forces in other parts of the province and vice versa. It doesn't matter where the foundation work is being done or the background investigative work is being done on particular activities, that information can now be better shared around the province so that we will be much more successful in catching criminals in a timely manner.

I think — and a number of previous speakers have commented on this — that all of us in our own communities have a great deal of effort being made to watch out for crime, to watch out for criminal activity,

to ensure that our police have the tools they need to track down criminals and bring them to justice. In my own community, certainly, there's been a great deal of effort over the last number of years by volunteer groups to assist the local RCMP — whether that's Citizens on Patrol that are out in the evening in different parts of the community driving around and just really keeping their eyes open for suspicious activity that may be going on in the community or whether that's the community policing office, which I'm very fortunate to have about two doors away from my constituency office.

The community policing office has a great roster of volunteers who are there to provide information to other community members about different programs the police are operating in the community. That office provides a very important outreach role in terms of ensuring the community is aware of the services available and is aware of preventative measures that we can take as individual members of the community to try and ensure that we aren't victimized, whether that's a crime of violence or that's a property crime against our homes.

What this new PRIME system does, as I've said, is provide for the integration of all the available information so that it can be used in a comprehensive fashion to better track down criminals who are guilty of various activities , so that we can then get them moving through the system and ensure that they're brought to justice. I think, perhaps, one of the things we tend to overlook sometimes is that we're a very mobile society these days. A number of the speakers have commented about the need to integrate local police forces — for example, in the lower mainland or Victoria — where you have a number of forces that really are serving the same urban area and the boundaries between the jurisdiction of those forces are really artificial boundaries. They may follow municipal boundaries, but the reality is that if you weren't from the community and you were just driving around, you wouldn't recognize that you were moving from one community to the next.

The reality in this day and age is that criminal activity can move from the lower mainland out into the Fraser Valley, right up into the Okanagan and beyond very quickly. We certainly know that it really doesn't matter where, perhaps, a crime has taken place. The offender may be 25 kilometres or 500 kilometres away very quickly. We need to ensure that we're able to pass information between forces so that we can keep our eyes open and our local police forces can keep their eyes open for those suspects.

One thing that hasn't been commented on a lot by the speakers this morning is another important issue that I think this new information system will help address, and that's one of officer safety. I have, I think, a particular sensitivity to officer safety because I have a brother who is a municipal police officer here in British Columbia. I remember when, a little over ten years ago, my brother was a young fellow 20 or 21 years old and had been accepted by the municipal police force. He goes for his first day on the job, and he picks up his uniform. He picks up the telephone and phones my mother, and the first thing he says to my mother is: "I just picked up my bulletproof vest." Now, a tip to those new recruits: don't let that be the first thing you say to your mother, who is concerned about you becoming a police officer in the first place.

It really brought home to me that we take for granted that we have these officers in our communities who are out doing their jobs on a day-to-day basis. We see them drive by in their car, we see them out walking the streets and talking to somebody, but we don't remember, on a day-to-day basis, the inherent danger in that job. Make no mistake about it: while, thankfully, most officers aren't going to come in contact with a true situation that endangers their life on a daily basis, the potential is always there. I know, in speaking with my own brother, of numerous events where he and a partner or on his own had stopped a vehicle and found a weapon in the vehicle. There's always that potential for danger.

I'm very pleased that this new PRIME system, while it addresses issues of tracking criminals throughout the province, also has that ability to provide real-time, immediate information to officers who may have pulled somebody over or stopped somebody on the side of the road, to ensure that the officer knows as much about that person as possible when they have to deal with them so that the potential for danger to the officer can be minimized as best as possible.

Certainly, there's the issue of improved safety to our communities. I don't think there's any doubt that this legislation and the introduction of the PRIME information system are going to go a long way in addressing community safety as well as that second and equally important — if not more important — issue of addressing officers' safety.

I know that in my own community, like the member for Oak Bay–Gordon Head, we recently had a situation where there was a sex offender who had done his time and had refused to participate in treatment, who was released and chose — unfortunately — to make Vernon his home. That raises the tension in the community incredibly. Thankfully, in the case of a sex offender, there's an opportunity for the police to release information that the individual is in the community so that the community can be a little more vigilant about the fact that they have an untreated offender in their midst. They can be a little more aware of that fact and be on guard.

It also allows the police to better monitor what that individual is doing in the community. Thankfully, in my own community, in this particular case, this offender chose to move on, but certainly it does raise the heat in the community, and all of us have to be concerned. As I see it, this PRIME system actually has the potential to broaden the public awareness that may be attracted in a sex offender case to other situations, so at least local officers are more aware of who is potentially in the community's midst and can be keeping their eyes on those folks.

Mr. Speaker, all around, as I've said, this is long-overdue legislation. It's something that should really have been done when the technology first became available, which I suspect was a number of years ago. My hat is off to the Solicitor General for moving so quickly on this and to the police forces and municipalities around the province, which I know have worked with the Solicitor General over the last number of months to ensure that this would be a provincewide system.

Really, unless it's provincewide, the true benefit isn't there. I can only hope, on behalf of citizens in other provinces across this country, that as we move forward and once we show that this really works in British Columbia, we'll see it expand beyond our own provincial borders to ensure that, in fact, we have a system where we can track criminal activity right across the country.

B. Penner: I, too, rise today to add my support to the growing list of members in this Legislature that seem very enthusiastic about this clearly much-needed initiative on the part of the Solicitor General. As indicated by other speakers, this multimillion-dollar project will speed up communication between police forces and help them share information in a more timely fashion.

It will come as a surprise to some citizens, I'm sure, that much police cooperation currently happens on an almost informal basis with telephone calls between detachments, comparing notes and that type of thing. This will allow for a much more systematic approach to solving crime by sharing information.

I have personal experience dealing with people at the Chilliwack courthouse who, from time to time, ended up in the cells at the back of that facility. They would originate in Vancouver and come on a bit of a crime spree into the eastern Fraser Valley. That's not to say we don't have our own homegrown problems, but they would frequently make an outing for the weekend, end up in the lockup for the weekend and arrive in court Monday morning, where I would have an opportunity to ask them how it was that they ended up in our fine city. It became evident to me that what we needed were better linkages between the police detachments at the western end of the Fraser Valley and those in the eastern Fraser Valley.

I believe Bill 12 represents a step in the right direction in terms of greater integration overall with our police forces and how they manage themselves. Clearly, crooks don't respect municipal boundaries. We need, therefore, to think of ways of working across those boundaries when it comes to policing. I know that the Solicitor General, in my discussions with him, has indicated his belief in and support for the overall effort of better integration between the police forces in the province.

There are just far too many boundaries we've thrown up that, frankly, help the criminal get away. This new computerized system, I'm advised, will help the police detect patterns of crime more quickly. Again, because so many crimes take place across multiple municipal boundaries, the various patterns of crime that can help point a finger toward who is the culprit often go unnoticed for far too long. I heard the member for Vancouver-Burrard reference a couple of cases, and I can think of others. He mentioned the Clifford Olson case and, of course, the terrible tragedy and ongoing trauma around the missing women's case in Vancouver. Of course, back in Ontario there are the horrific crimes committed by Paul Bernardo and his wife.

Because of some difficulties sharing information among police forces, some of those early hints — those clues — were not detected at the time, and that allowed the criminals to carry on their ruthless ways longer than they should have been able to. That could have been prevented much sooner. Again, by allowing police detachments to share information on a more regular basis, I'm confident we will be able to detect patterns of crime more quickly.

Other members, including the member for Bulkley Valley–Stikine, made reference to CPIC, the Canadian Police Information Centre. That, of course, was revolutionary in its day, but that system is not without its faults. As a lawyer who did some prosecution work prior to getting elected here in 1996, I can tell you that there were times I would go in to make a submission on sentencing, and I would be frustrated to know that certain convictions I had had a hand in securing, because I had dealt with the case — I was the prosecutor in the case — were not reflected on the accused's criminal record as provided by CPIC.

When I would make inquiries, I would be told that in certain situations either the data just never got entered in Ottawa for whatever reason — a backlog and delay — or alternatively, if the crime did not constitute an indictable offence and the person wasn't required to go for fingerprinting, then the criminal record was not entered in the CPIC database. This represented a serious error, because in many cases, due to the volume, the court pressure, the harried pace so often found in court — especially during remand days, when people may just be entering guilty pleas and getting on with sentencing — the Crown prosecutors rely on that CPIC printout. If there are convictions that aren't listed there, then the judge is not receiving the full benefit of the information about that person's background. Therefore, the sentence may not truly fit the crime and that criminal's criminal record.

I'm confident and hopeful that this new system, the PRIME system that is supported by Bill 12, will further facilitate accurate and timely information not just to police but also to prosecutors, whose job it is to provide up-to-date information to the judge upon sentencing, so the judge can levy the appropriate sentence. I'll be one of the first people to say that all too often it appears, from the public's perspective, that the sentences being imposed aren't appropriate.

One possible explanation may be that, in some cases, complete information about a criminal's real

background is not brought to the attention of the adjudicating judge. Again, CPIC — great in its day — has certain limitations, and it's a system that's aging. I'm really pleased that British Columbia is taking the lead in Canada by developing this provincewide network called PRIME.

I also know, from talking to the Solicitor General, that his budget has been under pressure — as has been the case for all ministries — because our government is committed to balancing the budget and living within its means. Nevertheless, and I think this is very important to stress, the Solicitor General has been able to make a commitment to fully fund the capital infrastructure costs of setting up this new system. That needs to be mentioned. That is a very significant commitment. I'm told it could cost anywhere between $14 million and $20 million — this in an era of belts being tightened — a very significant indicator that our government, the B.C. Liberal government, is committed to public safety and has made this a key priority. For that I again salute the Solicitor General for finding the resources within his stretched budget to do what really is in the public interest here, and that's move forward with the system.

So much for the kudos. Now for some criticism from me, but it's not directed towards the provincial government. It is, however, directed towards the federal government, and that relates to the DNA database. Members will know that I've had an interest in this topic for quite a few years — since about the mid-1990s — and I'm continually frustrated at how slow our federal government has been in moving forward with an up-to-date DNA database that can be effective in catching criminals quicker, before they go on to commit further crimes.

Let me give you a comparison of how things could be in Canada if our federal government was a bit more bold, a bit more creative, in moving forward with its DNA database. In England they have a DNA database that was set up in the early 1990s. Virtually every criminal, no matter what the offence, has to have his or her DNA entered in that system. As a result, they have more than 1.7 million identified samples in their DNA database. As a result of that, police in England report that, every single week, they are matching 900 offences with 900 convicted criminals. In other words, they're solving a whole lot of cases.

What are the comparable numbers for Canada? We have a total of 30,000 convicted criminals entered in our DNA database. Since the year 2000, a grand total of 400 cases across the country have been solved as a result of the DNA database. Let's just review those numbers again: 900 per week in England; in Canada, a grand total of 400 in over two years. We can do much better. We need to.

I have supported and spoken with our Attorney General and our Solicitor General prior to their meetings with Canada's justice ministers, provincial and federal. I know they have taken a message forward on behalf of British Columbians to the federal government, saying: "Let's get on with it. Let's take the next step." What is that next step? In my view — and I believe I speak for the government on this — the DNA database in Canada needs to include samples from everyone convicted of an indictable offence. At present there's a schedule of offences that will require your DNA to be entered in the database. That list is not entirely comprehensive. There are many exemptions, many types of offences, which are not included. Even certain indictable offences are not compulsory in terms of supplying your DNA upon your conviction.

I know there are civil libertarians who get very concerned over the whole issue of the DNA database, and I like to liken it to the fingerprint system we've had for many, many decades in Canada. That system requires a fingerprint to be given even before you're convicted. It's at the charge approval stage where you're required to go and give your fingerprints, before you've been proven guilty in a court of law. In contrast, the DNA legislation in Canada…. All we're asking for is that after you've gone through the court process and been found guilty, you would be required to give a sample of your DNA for storage in the database for future comparison against crime scenes, where DNA can be collected even when they don't yet have a suspect in mind. Obviously, when you can link a sample from a crime scene to a known offender that's already in your database, you can provide a link, and you can help solve the crime.

There is more work to be done, and it is at the federal level. I'm confident, however, that our Solicitor General and Attorney General will continue to advocate on behalf of British Columbians so we can make our communities and streets safer. The PRIME system that's been introduced here is a prime example of how that can be done. I've been waiting to use that phrase. The DNA database nationally, however, will also yield incredible results for clearing the backlog and ultimately protecting Canadians, if we can just take another step forward in getting more samples into that database. Like any bank, the DNA databank works best when it has more deposits.

With that and noting the hour, I'd like to conclude by saying that I certainly look forward to supporting this bill. I note that there is one other speaker who may wish to take the floor just before we rise and adjourn for the lunch break.

R. Sultan: Given the hour, I'm going to have to reduce my two-hour crime and punishment speech down to five minutes, but I did want to have the opportunity to rise and add my support to the Solicitor General for an extremely important bill.

As others have noted before me, the issue of public safety is rising in public concern. We have problems of street racing on the North Shore. We have problems of smash-and-grab thieves on the North Shore. We have constituents very concerned about property crime on the North Shore. Any tools we can put into the hands of our law enforcement officers are welcomed, I think, by our constituents on the North Shore.

I took the trouble to interview the superintendent for the RCMP in North Vancouver, Gord Tomlinson, and also Grant Churchill, our chief of police. Gord, incidentally, served as a constable with our Solicitor General in Brooks, Alberta, 20 years ago and knows him well. Both of these leaders of our police organizations on the North Shore support the PRIME bill fully.

I went so far as to interview some of the people on the beat, as it were, in those organizations. Here are some of the comments I received. "PRIME is an astonishing system. Yes, it stops at the British Columbia border, but like politics, most crime is local." Another comment was: "PRIME will be a significant leap forward. The concept is fabulous." For me perhaps the most astonishing comment was this: "PRIME will give us access to the city of Vancouver suspect list. Previously, neither the city of Vancouver nor the city of Victoria shared data. Don't ask me why these two police forces would not share data. It was weird." I was startled, I was shocked, and I was dismayed to find out that's how, in fact, our two largest metropolitan police forces in this province have been operating. I think this is very dismaying, and clearly the Solicitor General, who is much more familiar with these circumstances than we are, is taking steps to remedy the situation.

The other piece of information which popped up on my Internet screen as I was browsing some of the local newspapers over the weekend was a story from the Times Colonist by Louise Dickson headlined: "B.C. Police Boss Quits Merger Talks." Official is fed up after $100,000 spent on studies that go round in circles. The story went on to say that B.C.'s top police official in the Solicitor General's ministry, namely Kevin Begg, says he's "fed up with the lack of action by local police forces and has washed his hands of their efforts to integrate."

"In a letter to five greater Victoria mayors dated February 28, Kevin Begg, director of police services, says his division will no longer participate in the steering or working committees set up in December 2000 to examine the integration of specialized police services of five municipal forces in the region. 'Over two years later these committees have accomplished very little.'"

Again, this is revealing a pattern that I think is very troubling. These are public servants, and we expect them to cooperate with one another rather than to set up their private little fiefdoms. I think it's dismaying when it's suggested that they aren't doing their very best to share such a basic thing as information on crooks and possible crooks, so it's another very strong argument in favour of what the Solicitor General is doing.

Of course, the mayors — and I can't resist quoting this one — did not agree with Mr. Begg's assessment. One of them says: "I think it's the sort of memo he faxed out late on a Friday afternoon when he should have thought about it longer." I will not identify the mayor. "There's a lot of culture in this community of many municipalities. You don't snap your fingers overnight and end up with good results." Well, two years and $100,000 is more than overnight in my opinion.

He finally says, this not-to-be-mentioned-by-name mayor, that he's learned that patience and perseverance pay off. "It took a lot of perseverance to bring in blue boxes and to create a 911 system." I love this one: "Sometimes you have to keep digging through the stall to find the pony."

If this is typical of the insularity of our law enforcement organizations across the province…. I might say that the constituents I represent are policed both by the RCMP, a national police organization, and by our own West Vancouver police force, a superb organization, so I see both spectrums. These two organizations, to their credit, have cooperated fully on the exchange of data.

If it takes law to force these large metropolitan police forces to integrate information of the crooks they're chasing so they don't wash their hands of them as soon as they step across the municipal boundary in the twenty-first century, then so be it. I think the Solicitor General's approach is to be commended and deserves all our support.

Committee of Supply A, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. G. Abbott: It is my pleasure to present the estimates for the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal

and Women's Services for 2003-04. I am blessed to have many capable staff in my ministry. They work very hard and do just excellent and, I think, frequently remarkable work on behalf of the ministry. I do want to introduce some of them who are here today. Of course, there are many others who are in supporting roles as well.

First, right here is Bob de Faye, my deputy minister; Lori Wanamaker, assistant deputy minister, corporate; Brian Dolsen, assistant deputy minister for the 2010 bid, Vancouver agreement; Kaye Melliship, assistant deputy minister for housing and women's services; Elise Wickson, director of women's policy; Gail Greenwood, director of corporate planning and policy; Shauna Brouwer, director of finance; Paul Kerr, senior policy analyst; and Deborah Eddie, Provincial Capital Commission staff. They will be assisting me today and, of course, assisting my two hard-working and very pleasant colleagues who are here with me today as well: the Minister of State for Women's Equality and the minister of state responsible for the community charter and the 2010 bid.

I'm delighted to continue to have the responsibility of leading the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services. It is, as you know, a very large and diverse ministry where social needs and fiscal challenges intersect. We are able, in a whole range of areas which I'll briefly outline, to undertake programs and sometimes capital spending to improve people's day-to-day lives and build a stronger and more just and fair society here in British Columbia. That's achievable with the past year's strategic shifts and the 2003-04 service plan goals.

One of the key areas in the ministry is housing. A lot of our housing programs are delivered, of course, through B.C. Housing. Note that in the coming fiscal year we will be spending a record amount on housing in British Columbia, primarily through B.C. Housing but not exclusively so. B.C. Housing will be receiving about $11 million more than in fiscal 2002-03, moving from $128 million to $139 million.

We are, as I know you're well aware, Mr. Chair, enjoying very strong housing construction numbers in British Columbia today, and housing sales numbers as well — reflective, I think, of the renewed confidence that British Columbians are enjoying. Residential building permits are up 37.4 percent. Nationally, they're up 32.1 percent, so we're actually exceeding the national numbers in respect of residential building permits. Housing starts are up 25 percent, exceeding forecasts in that regard.

We are also undertaking in the coming weeks an updating of the safety legislation in the province as part of the safety system transformation project aimed at promoting and enhancing public safety. We'll be balancing certainly our responsibility for duty of care for the province with an innovative and accountable public safety system for all British Columbians. We'll be moving on new safety legislation during the spring session.

We continue to work very closely with local governments, particularly with the Union of B.C. Municipalities. I've been very pleased with the relationship I have built and continue to enjoy with the Union of B.C. Municipalities. They've been excellent partners in a range of initiatives. I know that the Minister of State for Community Charter has also worked very intensively with, principally, the executive of the UBCM as he moves towards a finalization of the charter. I know members will be posing a number of questions for the minister in the hours and days ahead.

As well, the Minister of State for Women's Equality has undertaken important work in the area of child care and women's services. I know she's looking forward to being able to respond to questions and outline many of the important programs we've undertaken in that area.

We also have been very busy in the areas of aboriginal, immigration, multiculturalism and the Vancouver agreement. To begin with immigration, we've got the provincial nominee program up and running very effectively. The staff there have done a very, very commendable job of ensuring that the PNP is operating just as efficiently and effectively as it possibly can. We're now well over 200 in terms of people who have accessed and successfully moved through that program. I think that's a great achievement, and we look forward to even larger numbers of people using the provincial nominee program as a basis to quickly become part of the British Columbia economy, contributing their important skills and professions to a province that certainly needs those skills and professions today. With our demographics they are certainly even more needed in coming months and years.

We have also been very active with respect to aboriginal services. I look forward to hearing inquiries about that from members in the hours ahead as well. For example, we have concluded now, I think, three or four aboriginal employment partnership initiative agreements. The first of these we signed with the Vancouver Island health authority and the Métis Provincial Council in conjunction with the Snuneymuxw band a few months ago. Since then we've done agreements with Royal Roads and the city of Dawson Creek, and we expect to be concluding others in this area in the weeks ahead.

The aboriginal employment partnership initiative allows us to play a role in bridging between the training dollars which flow from the federal government, ensuring that both the public sector — the health authority would be a good example — and the private sector make clear the opportunities that are going to be existing for aboriginal people in the years ahead, so that we're clear the training funds are used most effectively and ensure that when their training is completed, job opportunities exist.

We have also in the past year piloted for the first year the Aboriginal Youth FIRST program. That's aboriginal youth futures in recreation and sport training. We piloted it up in the northwest of the province. This

is a program that is similar in some respects to what we try to do in the Night Hoops program, which is to try to ensure that we develop in young people, particularly, a lifelong love of sport which will be an appropriate and very constructive intervention in sometimes troubled lives.

What we've done up in the northwest in the past year, because I'm very proud of this program, is provided young aboriginal people on and off reserves in communities in the northwest of British Columbia with an opportunity to get training in lifeguarding, aquatics — scuba training, for example — back-country recreation and guiding, recreation and sport programming management. These are all important skills that these young people can take back to their communities and, hopefully, they'll be able to use those skills very effectively in improving situations in their communities.

We've also, as you know, been doing some exciting work in the area of sports and the Olympics. The minister responsible for the 2010 bid will, I'm sure, be able to add a good deal more about that, but I do want to say we had, I think, a spectacular week last week with the visit of the IOC evaluation committee. Things, in my estimation, couldn't have gone better, and certainly the minister is owed a lot of thanks for his part in ensuring that that went very well.

The Olympics are an exciting example of what we can do in sport in British Columbia, but of course, they are not the only example. We have a family of games in British Columbia — B.C. Winter Games, B.C. Summer Games, the Seniors Games, disability games, B.C. northern games, and so on — that provide for both participation and the development of excellence in the area of sport.

We do want to continue to work on both sides of the equation — that is, the excellence side, sport development — so that our young athletes are excited about the possibility of potentially someday moving from the playground to the podium, moving from participation sport to actually becoming competitive athletes, competing in things like the B.C. Summer and Winter Games, the Canada Summer Games and Canada Winter Games and, of course, the ultimate in amateur sport competition, the Olympics.

Those are exciting. Sports has a lot of different aspects to it: economic development, tourism, health, education. These are all important elements in the area of sport. Certainly, we're working on a number of initiatives to ensure that B.C. is a healthier, more active province in the years ahead, although I must say we're doing rather well in that regard at this point. B.C.'s numbers consistently are the best across the nation in terms of kids being involved in sport, adults being involved in sport, and so on. But we can always do better, and we're certainly going to be working across government to try to ensure that that goal is achieved.

With those few comments, I will take my place. I do want to say that in all of these areas — assisted by, as I've noted earlier, a remarkably capable, energetic, hardworking, professional staff — I think we are making a difference in British Columbia and in a whole range of very vital areas in terms of community development. I look forward to hearing the questions, concerns and suggestions of members of this House in moving forward.

J. MacPhail: Just for the benefit of members, I'll try to outline the order of my questions: the Vancouver agreement, aboriginal and then I thought I'd do housing. That's the grouping, I think, for the minister.

Then Women's Equality, the community charter and the Olympics are the same minister, as I understand it. Is that correct?

J. MacPhail: I'll just start on the Vancouver agreement. For the benefit of the House, the Vancouver agreement was an agreement signed on March 9, 2000. The third anniversary has just passed. It was representatives of the federal and provincial governments and the city that signed the Vancouver agreement.

We've just passed the third anniversary. Can the minister update us on the provincial budget for the Vancouver agreement? What has occurred in the last year? What are the future projects planned under the Vancouver agreement?

Hon. G. Abbott: The question invites a relatively complex answer, but I'll keep it at a manageable level here. The member can explore further some of the elements that are of particular interest to her.

The regular budget for the Vancouver agreement moves from $2.030 million to $2.040 million for the coming fiscal year. As the member probably knows, we have been working for some months now to try to achieve federal matching for some additional funds which are related to the 2010 bid and which would be focused on the downtown east side, and in particular, on vulnerable women and children in the downtown east side. That would potentially be both capital funds and programmatic funds. Again, we haven't officially secured the agreement of the federal government with respect to matching those funds, but we remain confident that it will be achieved prior to March 31.

In terms of the activity related to the Vancouver agreement, I'll note first that there has been a change in respect to the management-level appointee from the city of Vancouver. Of course, incoming Mayor Larry Campbell is now on the management committee of the Vancouver agreement. Stephen Owen remains the federal designate for that agreement.

As well, we've been involved in partnering, because as the member knows very well, the essence of the Vancouver agreement is the currently unique partnership among the federal and provincial governments and the city of Vancouver to undertake a range of pro-

grammatic and capital projects which will better the economic and social situation on the downtown east side.

For example, the Neighbours First program has been undertaken. We've seen the opening of the Millennium Gate in Chinatown. Recently we funded a new increment in the Night Hoops program — again, a kind of unique program aimed at using sport as an intervention in the lives of some troubled young people particularly. We've funded the Sunrise Dental Clinic. The Bladerunners program continues. We hope, actually, with the success of the 2010 bid on July 2 that we will see a huge expansion in the Bladerunners program. Those are some of the areas that there has certainly been activity in.

We've also been moving ahead in terms of the integrated enforcement on the downtown east side, trying to address, obviously, some of the issues around dismantling the open drug scene. That continues to be very much an important priority action for the Vancouver agreement. Revitalizing the Hastings corridor — there have been some changes there. Turning problem hotels into contributory hotels — that's important, particularly on the women's side. Making the community safer for the women and kids in that part of Vancouver remains a very important goal of the Vancouver agreement.

J. MacPhail: So in the budget year ending '03, $2.03 million and in a new budget year ending '04, $2.04 million…. Can some of the initiatives the minister just described have actually been ongoing since 2001? What were the new initiatives of this past year? What were they, and how much money was allocated to them?

Hon. G. Abbott: I guess everything is new money in terms of year over year. In terms of the member's questions about what is entirely new, this is one I didn't mention previously — the urban aboriginal employment program in the downtown east side. There was $150,000 from the treaty negotiations office to start a two-year pilot program through the Vancouver agreement to assist long-term unemployed urban aboriginal people. Obviously, the aim of the program is to move them to sustainable employment.

The Night Hoops is new as well. The program is not new, but it's new in that area. We've undertaken that with a $45,000 grant. In terms of other things, it's a relatively small figure, but we supported the Gastown bicycle race with a $5,000 grant. The initiatives are not always big-dollar things. The integrated enforcement area is an important one, although big dollars are not attached to it.

J. MacPhail: That was for last year, ending '03. What are the projects planned for this upcoming year, '03-04, to spend the $2.04 million?

Hon. G. Abbott: In terms of the rollout of new programs beyond the ones we've discussed, we'll announce them when programmatically they're ready to be announced. I will, however, advise the member that we have a strategic plan we've developed in conjunction with the city and the federal government that sets out our goals, the outcomes we're looking for and the strategies and priority actions that flow from them. Again, the strategic goal we will be looking at, particularly in the year ahead, is the revitalization of the Hastings corridor. The member knows the area very well. Many of the problems are most evident in that few blocks of Hastings from the Woodwards Building up to Main. We'll be looking at opportunities to revitalize the Hastings corridor. There is nothing I can say to the member today in terms of, you know, this is exactly what we're going to do, but we'll obviously be letting the member know as we roll out those projects.

Dismantling the open drug scene remains an ongoing challenge for policing in Vancouver. Turning problem hotels into contributory hotels, again, for all of the parties remains a priority action in terms of making the community safer and healthier for the most vulnerable, particularly women and kids. As we finalize the programming between the three levels of government, those will be rolled out and announced.

J. MacPhail: Could the minister point out to me the line in the supplement to the estimates where the funding for the Vancouver agreement is, please?

Hon. G. Abbott: I'll refer the member to page 26, community initiatives and Vancouver agreement. It's the third line from the bottom.

J. MacPhail: On the issue of the funding that is expected from the federal government, what is the request? Is it for '03-04, or is it a multi-year request?

Hon. G. Abbott: It is a one-time request. We're hoping the request will be approved prior to our respective year-ends in our respective jurisdictions. The proposal is for $10 million matching.

Hon. G. Abbott: It comes from the ministry budget of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services — the current year budget.

J. MacPhail: Did I miss it in the overall budget? Is it coming out of contingencies? Where is it coming from?

Hon. G. Abbott: It's fiscal 2002-03 money. It is money that is a product of careful management. It's part of the surplus in the ministry. It does not come from contingencies.

J. MacPhail: Okay, so what it is, is that the ministry has, for the year ending '03, set aside from within its own budget $10 million. Perhaps the minister will explain where there has been reduced spending in other

areas. I'd actually like the minister, then, throughout our estimates to make note of where there has been underspending that would allow for the contribution to the Vancouver agreement of $10 million, just as we go through estimates — okay?

The discussions around the one-time allocation from the federal government…. I had very brief discussions about this yesterday — very brief — with the Member of Parliament who serves that area, but we didn't touch on that by any stretch of the imagination. Is it the federal member for Vancouver-Quadra that will be making the allocation of money, the $10 million? That's Stephen Owen.

Hon. G. Abbott: The member poses an interesting question. Certainly, I think our expectation would be that the announcement would come through the member for Vancouver-Quadra, who is the minister responsible for the Vancouver agreement. Of course, we don't determine who does what in the federal government, but that would be our expectation.

J. MacPhail: If the federal government does not come up with the $10 million, will the minister still be allocating the provincial $10 million to the Vancouver agreement?

Hon. G. Abbott: We don't like to think about that eventuality. I'm sure we will be hearing positive results from the federal government one day soon. That's our fond hope. Should the situation occur that they did not match the funding, we would have to return to Treasury Board for further discussion.

We don't think that's going to be necessary. We have received some positive signals from the federal government, and we look forward to their confirmation of their matching.

B. Penner: I just have two quick questions. The first one for the minister concerns an update on the status of the devolution initiative as it relates to heritage sites. The minister will know from my previous correspondence and discussions with him that the electoral district of Chilliwack-Kent has the Kilby General Store Museum located near Agassiz, British Columbia. That's a very popular destination. I first went there as a student in elementary school, and I know it continues to be a destination for a number of school groups on annual outings. Can the minister provide my constituents with an update as to the status of devolution as it relates to the Kilby store and museum?

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for his question. The former Kilby property, which is, of course, now a heritage site in British Columbia, remains obviously a very important part of the system of heritage sites that we have in the province.

What we're attempting to do through the devolution process is to build on the successes in terms of non-profit and private management of some of the heritage sites we've enjoyed in the past. For example, for quite a number of years the Emily Carr House in Victoria has had the benefit of some very capable private sector management. We want to build on that experience in our other heritage sites as well.

The Kilby is one of those that is currently in that process. The process basically is this. It's been handled, obviously, by the heritage branch of the ministry. The first stage is a request for expressions of interest. That's been completed in respect of Kilby. A request for qualifications has also been completed. The final stage is a request for proposals. That will be occurring for the Kilby heritage site later in the month of March.

Kilby is actually in the second group that is going through this process. We are very satisfied and very confident at this point with the submissions we've had in terms of requests for expressions of interest and requests for qualifications. We have very good viable proposals for the Kilby heritage property. We're very confident that we'll be moving forward with a very strong package in the future.

Hon. G. Abbott: The request for proposals will go out in just a very few days. Then those will be evaluated over approximately a two-month period.

B. Penner: Thank you for that update, minister. My next question pertains to Cultus Lake and the governance structure for what is referred to as the Cultus Lake Park board. The minister will certainly know that it's a bit of an anomaly in terms of its governance structure. I believe a separate act of the Legislature was passed more than 70 years ago, creating the Cultus Lake Park board. In fact, I've checked the Revised Statutes of British Columbia, and that act is not even consolidated in the Revised Statutes of British Columbia, because, I suppose, it is such a unique creature. Unique is one way to describe it. It certainly poses some challenges.

I know there is now an initiative, proposed in part by the city of Chilliwack, to reform the governance structure for Cultus Lake. Back in January of this year there was a meeting at the Cultus Lake Elementary School that I had the opportunity to attend. I know that the minister sent one of his representatives — Gary Paget, I believe, from his ministry — to attend that meeting.

It's my sense that there is fairly broad community support in the Cultus Lake area for moving to village status, which is a recognized form of municipal government in British Columbia. It's an existing form of government. It would be certainly something the ministry should be more comfortable with rather than the stand-alone creature known as the Cultus Lake Park board.

My question to the minister is: could he provide me with an update on where his ministry is at and, looking at this question, what kind of hurdles he might anticipate? What are some of the guidelines the ministry

follows in assessing a request from a community to enter into something like village status?

Hon. G. Abbott: Staff for this area is just joining me now, so I'll briefly give a high-level view, and then the member may want to follow up with more specific questions that the professional advisers I have next to me can assist with.

The member is right. The Cultus Lake Park board is a kind of unique governance structure for the area. It is perhaps, I guess, arguably in need of some revisiting. Have I as minister been officially requested to look at this? No. I certainly have been visited by the hon. member and one other party in respect to this matter, but the ministry has not been in receipt of any specific proposal or request for study funds or anything of that character. We certainly would be amenable to looking at that, were a request to be received.

I think the member is right that there are probably two or three different directions Cultus Lake could take for the future. I do know there are some infrastructure difficulties and other things which I think are emerging in that area and will need resolution at some point. I wouldn't speculate on what that direction should be. We do try to look at, among other things, the views and aspirations of the people who live in the area in moving ahead. That will presumably unfold in some process of public consultation in the future.

For example, one of the possibilities would be village status. We would consider that. Again, in undertaking village status there is a whole range of responsibilities that flow with that. Whether Cultus Lake has the population, the assessment base and all of those requirements to become a village is not at all clear at this point and would take some very careful study and consideration by the residents there.

Alternatively, a boundary extension by the city of Chilliwack might be considered. Again, I have no reason to think they would undertake that. I think they commissioned a study by Urban Systems to look at that possibility. Beyond that, we haven't received, as a ministry, any request from Chilliwack to undertake any processes related to boundary extension. Were they to undertake such a thing, they would be guided, as indeed all municipalities in the province are guided, by the boundary extension criteria that we've developed over the past year and a half, which is posted on our website and which is made clear to any proponent municipality that wishes to undertake a boundary extension.

A third alternative is either the status quo or some reversion of governance into the regional district structure in that area.

B. Suffredine: Following on the last question, in my riding of Nelson-Creston there are a number of communities that are considering boundary extension applications. I know that Nelson has one right now that is active, and Nakusp is also considering an application.

The rules are in the process of changing or have just changed. Could the minister describe, for the benefit of those who wish to consider expanding, the process and what is involved?

Hon. G. Abbott: The best source for any jurisdiction which is considering the possibility of a boundary extension, as I noted in respect to a previous question, is the municipal boundary extension criteria. That goes through in great detail the kinds of elements which should enter into any consideration of a boundary extension by a jurisdiction and, notably, the proponent municipality.

The key elements, though, in terms of how these things unfold…. We do expect that the municipality will work with the regional district. Typically, that's an electoral area district that's under consideration for boundary extension. We expect the proponent municipality to work with the regional district in terms of resolving any outstanding matters related to assessment or programmatic responsibilities and other issues that flow from boundary extensions. Again, this is the simple version.

We also require the proponent municipality to undertake consultative processes with the area that is under consideration for boundary extension. Often this will be achieved through public meetings, which would invite the local people to state their views, concerns or support — whatever it may happen to be. Based on that, while in neither case — in the regional district discussion or the public discussion — is there a veto conferred, these are important elements in determining whether a particular proposal should proceed.

Those are the key elements. Often what prompts a boundary extension is something as simple as people wanting to get on to a municipal water or sewer system. Frequently the proposals are consensual. It's when they're not that it becomes a rather more intriguing process for the ministry to evaluate the proposals.

B. Suffredine: Could the minister outline the normal advantages and disadvantages to seeking a boundary extension that a community might want to consider, including things like the costs they could anticipate and whether or not the ministry is considering, at this point, the disadvantage in rural areas, like rural roads? That's usually been the stumbling block, in my experience, to expansion applications: the cost considerations of taking on road networks that are decaying.

Hon. G. Abbott: The member's question is a very good one. I had the good fortune to sit on two incorporation processes in my hometown of Sicamous: one in the late seventies, early eighties and one in the mid- to late eighties. The latter was successful; the former was not.

The member is correct. The process of incorporation for small communities is probably the most important

question they'll ever consider. Basically, the incorporation package is a business arrangement between the province and the new municipality in return for access to the tax base, which they did not previously have. The municipality undertakes some of the costs which had previously been assigned to the province as well. In almost every circumstance the cost of roads is the principal cost which the municipality undertakes. That's why, as part of our role in municipal government, we provide generous grants to areas. Again, they're communities that are part of electoral areas in almost every circumstance.

If they want to look at incorporation, as Sicamous did back in the seventies and eighties, we provide them with an incorporation study grant, which provides them — typically, through consultants — with professional services that give them a very clear idea of the costs and benefits of undertaking incorporation. They do look very closely at things like what boundaries are going to work and whether the municipality has sufficient size, infrastructure and assessment base to manage the costs that become part of the municipal costs through the process of incorporation.

J. MacPhail: I just want to note for the minister that perhaps the $10 million that's about to come from the federal government…. I will have further questions on that. They may deal with the Olympics, so just note that.

The downtown east side economic capacity study is going to be completed this spring, so could the minister please outline what the preliminary findings are from those interviews that have been conducted.

Hon. G. Abbott: We don't have that information here today, but we will get back to the member with what information we can provide on a preliminary basis.

J. MacPhail: Are we still on track for the study to be completed this spring?

Hon. G. Abbott: We understand that to be the case, and we will further confirm that with the member.

J. MacPhail: One of the projects that's being proposed is the downtown east side target area and empowerment zone. Is there a time line to proceed with this project?

Hon. G. Abbott: The member appears to be proceeding from a document which our staff doesn't have possession of. I wonder if she could share it with us. Then we'd be, perhaps, in a position to better answer her questions later this morning or whenever the opportunity arises.

J. MacPhail: Actually, it's my questions in big print; that's all it is. It's not a document I'm reading from. This has been discussed in the public domain. I thought it was referred to at the provincial congress yesterday as well. Sorry. It's, like, common knowledge, so I just assumed the minister would know.

Hon. G. Abbott: I've discussed the matter with staff. It may be that what the member is referring to is an initiative on the part of the city of Vancouver, but it's not something that has enjoyed discussion at the management level for the Vancouver agreement.

J. MacPhail: We'll leave it now, and I'll provide more details to the minister on this. Perhaps it may be one issue that we have to go back to, out of order — okay?

J. MacPhail: We've already talked about the drug problem. The minister has talked about cleaning up the Hastings corridor. Yesterday there was a very interesting discussion at the provincial congress raised around the issue of safe injection sites as it relates to the Vancouver agreement. Of course, it's my view that safe injection sites have dominated the discussion around the Vancouver agreement. It's only one of the four pillars, the other pillars being education, enforcement, harm reduction and treatment. Harm reduction is the safe injection sites.

It was very interesting that the Canadian Alliance member — I have to use his name; I guess it's okay to use federal members' names in this House — John Cummins raised the issue about what the provincial government's commitment is to safe injection sites. It is a major, strategic initiative under the Vancouver agreement. Could the minister please update us on the provincial commitment to this one pillar of the four pillars approach?

Hon. G. Abbott: I thank the member for her question. I did hear that comment with interest yesterday, as well, although I'm not sure which MP it was that stated it. I guess it was John Duncan.

In terms of whether we've been clear or not, certainly, every time I've been asked the question in the area of the Vancouver agreement or when the Minister of Health Services has been asked the question in the context of this health area, I think we've been very clear about it. What we need on the downtown east side is a continuum of addiction services so that people who, sadly, are trying to deal with their addictions will have the opportunity to access services that are going to help them overcome those addictions.

We've always said that certainly in principle, we support safe injection sites as part of that continuum but as only one part of that continuum. It's just one little piece. I know it has attracted an inordinate and not always constructive amount of attention in terms of the continuum, but it's just one piece in the continuum

I thank the member and her colleague, actually, for studiously avoiding kind of ratcheting up the debate around this particular area. I do think, as perhaps some of the comments yesterday indicated, that this can very quickly become a very emotional issue, when really what we should be addressing is the health issue here and the opportunity for people, when they want to shed their addictions, to overcome them.

We do support in principle the notion of having safe injection sites as part of the continuum, but again, it's part of a strategy for overcoming addictions. It has to be part of an integrated national strategy to ensure that we don't see any unfortunate side effects from moving ahead with that sort of initiative. As the member knows, I think, there is a proposal now that has gone to Health Canada, which is going to be considered over the next 60 days.

We'll be guided by that, and we'll be looking to work with both the federal and city levels of government to ensure that this is done in an effective, strategic, coordinated and integrated way. Again, it's one piece in the puzzle, and it has got to be part of a broader initiative, including the other pillars, to make this successful.

J. MacPhail: I appreciate that update, and I agree entirely. I think the minister and I are saying exactly the same things on the approach to the burgeoning drug misuse in Vancouver.

Now, I think the minister is aware that there is also a burgeoning drug problem here in Victoria, and I note that the civic level of government has taken an aggressive stand on this matter. Are there plans to proceed with a similar urban development agreement here in Victoria in partnership with municipal and federal governments?

Hon. G. Abbott: The member is correct. There certainly are current and emerging issues around drugs in the city of Victoria, as one of the larger metropolitan areas in British Columbia. At the staff level we have met with officials from the city of Victoria to discuss where they might benefit from the experience of the Vancouver agreement. We're looking at opportunities for the city of Victoria to gain from that experience and also, perhaps, to build a model that would be comparable or parallel to the Vancouver agreement, but we are very early in those kinds of discussions.

Of course, in any discussion where there are at least three partners, we have to be cognizant of the fact that the other partners need to come along and embrace it. In short, we are still some distance from having a parallel Victoria agreement, for example, but those preliminary discussions at least are underway. We've had a few opportunities to review what the city of Victoria needs to move ahead.

J. MacPhail: I also had the pleasure of speaking to the mayor of Penticton about drug issues of a similar nature — and also Surrey. I didn't speak with the Surrey city about this, but certainly they are in the media about an aggressive drug reduction strategy. What tables does the province sit at, preliminary or otherwise, around drug reduction strategies?

Hon. G. Abbott: My answer is in no way meant to deprecate the challenge that the city of Penticton, the city of Surrey and other cities in the province have in trying to meet drug enforcement and drug management issues in their jurisdictions. The only place that has requested an opportunity to learn directly from the experience of Vancouver through the Vancouver agreement is Victoria.

There haven't been similar discussions with Surrey or Penticton or, indeed, any other community in British Columbia. Broadly, the issue of addictions is one that falls under the Ministry of Health — the Minister of State for Mental Health, the Minister of Health Planning and the Minister of Health. Again, this is not an attempt to try to push off the discussion to them, but I think that once we move beyond the Vancouver agreement, the ambit of my authority to respond to your questions is probably strained at best.

J. MacPhail: My last area of questioning is probably a revisit of the Vancouver agreement. It's just this issue of federal-provincial new initiatives, and I flag that maybe this has to deal with the Olympics. There was a recently released community assessment report on the opportunities and impacts of the 2010 games on Vancouver's inner-city neighbourhoods, the same area covered by the Vancouver agreement, so perhaps the minister could highlight the primary assessment in that area.

The reason why I refer back to the $10 million — or the ten-plus-ten — is that I think there was also, as I recall, information released just prior to the Vancouver 2010 Olympic bid plebiscite that $10 million would be allocated from the province to the downtown east side. I could be wrong, but I'm just asking for clarification on that. Was it in response to the recently released community assessment report?

Hon. G. Abbott: The staff are out digging the community assessment report now.

Just to note, though, there was no announcement from the province in respect to that. There was a public comment, I believe, made by the mayor of the city of Vancouver with respect to the $10 million, but there has never been any provincial announcement with respect to that. We would, I think, feel it unfair to press or jeopardize our agreement, hopefully, with the federal government by announcing something pre-emptively to put them in a more difficult position in their consideration of our request.

J. MacPhail: I'll just ask this question while we're waiting for the staff to look up the report. So, indeed, is

any commitment, either from the province or the federal government to fiscal year-end, $10 million plus $10 million, still to be announced? There's nothing out there in the public domain that would allow us to say the commitment has been made — related to the Olympics or not.

Hon. G. Abbott: Yes. I don't want to get into the remarkably sensitive realm of relationships between federal ministers. There were some comments made, I think, by Minister Rock on his visit to British Columbia which appeared to relate to the $10 million, but as near as we can tell, that was not an official statement on behalf of the federal government. We don't manage the relationship among federal ministers. Our sense is that Minister Stephen Owen will be the likely person to make official the commitment of the federal government, although their $10 million may come from a combination of two or three different federal ministries. We await with interest how they do their rollout.

B. Suffredine: If I might just return here for a minute in the thought pattern to the boundary extension matters. Once a community has consulted and those consultations have indicated the support for an extension application, how long, typically, does it take for the ministry to complete its side of it? What types of considerations would the ministry go through in deciding whether or not to approve boundary extension applications?

Hon. G. Abbott: The staff for the municipal area is not here at the moment, but I think I can probably take a pretty good stab at answering the member's question. Sometimes the issues are very straightforward and non-controversial. That is, in the case of consensual agreement between a municipality that has water, sewer and fire services which attract neighbourhoods outside of its jurisdiction, people will typically want to become part of that municipality in order to access those services which they might not otherwise be able to access. As I noted in my previous comment, the consideration by the municipal affairs section of my ministry becomes much more intensive when there is a difference of opinion in the candidate community on the borders of the municipality about whether or not they want to become a part of the municipality.

I had a remarkably difficult decision to make in that regard in terms of the Courtenay boundary extension into the Sandwick area. It was, I think, one of the tougher decisions I've ever had to make. We looked at the balance of public opinion in that area. Likely, actually, the balance of public opinion was against inclusion in the city of Courtenay. Notwithstanding that, we had a very compelling submission from the Vancouver Island health authority in respect of current and emerging septic disposal issues in the Sandwick area. Based on that submission from the Vancouver Island health authority, it was clear the problem was going to grow more acute in the Sandwick area unless that area had an opportunity to be connected to the sewer system of Courtenay. As well, there were some important transportation issues which I had to consider. It was actually a very tough call. I hope I don't have any that difficult again during my tenure as minister.

It can be difficult, because people are not always unanimous in their views about whether or not they want to be a part of the municipality. When they are unanimous, it makes it very easy for me. Again, depending on the nature of the division of public opinion and the other important elements that may come into discussion, it can be a very difficult decision.

While I have the floor, I do want to respond to the question the hon. member for Vancouver-Hastings posed in terms of the community assessment. Again, this is preliminary, and the member will appreciate that, as the management committee looks at this, there may be some fine-tuning of it.

The report identifies potential opportunities and impacts in relation to the Winter Games. In particular, it looks at the issue of business development, how to increase levels of economic activity — particularly in the inner-city neighbourhoods of the downtown east side — in relation to the Olympics. We want to identify business opportunities that will flow, particularly to that neighbourhood, out of the games. We want to look at employment and training.

Again, it is preliminary, but I'll share it with the member. We really believe that, with the volume of construction jobs that will be part of the games through programs like Bladerunners, which I think has had a lot of interest from some of the people who might be interested in doing construction work in that area…. Bladerunners would be an opportunity to give aboriginal youth, for example, some training in the area of construction and hopefully fit them well for future careers in the construction area. That is just one of them. We do need to look in a very careful and systematic way at employment and training and how we can use the Olympic opportunity to leverage that.

Housing is an important element in the community assessment. As you know, the city of Vancouver has some issues around that. If the member wants to get into them later when we get to the housing area, I am happy to do that as well. We want to ensure that there is an adequate number of hotels to meet the demand and that we don't see additional problems in terms of affordable housing prompted by conversions. We'll look generally at the increase in demand for housing prior to the games, and look at some issues, the legal and regulatory protections, that might be a part of ensuring there is adequate housing and adequate hotels in that area when the games arrive.

Another area is affordable recreation and community sport. That's a big issue, and I guess Night Hoops is an example of what me might do to address some of that.

We want to promote economic development, employment and training, housing and affordable recreation and community sport opportunities. Those are

Hon. G. Abbott: There has been, as I think the member knows, an inner-city working group, which has been working in this area to date. They'll continue to work on this and will finalize it, hopefully, later in the spring for its release to the public. They are working with the bid corporation and the organizing committee. The objective of all of those, obviously, is to see that the inner-city advantages of the games coming to British Columbia and to Canada will be realized.

J. MacPhail: That's it for me on the Vancouver agreement. I'm going to move on to aboriginal issues. I'm wondering if the minister can explain the status of the first citizens forum that was supposed to provide aboriginal citizens living on and off reserves with a direct means to communicate with government about their priorities.

It was interesting yesterday to note in the report of the chair of the Treaty Commission, Miles Richardson — which I found a very hopeful report — not much on off-reserve issues. Fair enough. It's not his jurisdiction.

Hon. G. Abbott: The inaugural first citizens forum was, of course, held last October at the Wosk Centre in Vancouver. We had excellent representation, both at the leadership and at the community level, from all around British Columbia. It was a very, very successful gathering. I'm not sure whether the member was there or not, but it was a very successful gathering. We had excellent discussions around education. It was reinforced again yesterday in our discussions that education is one of the very critical determinants in terms of future success, both for aboriginal and non-aboriginal youth.

What we did at the first citizens forum was look at the experience of a couple of areas that have enjoyed success in terms of raising aboriginal graduation rates. For example, the North Okanagan–Shuswap school district No. 83, where I'm from, has graduation rates close to 70 percent, as opposed to graduation rates around 40 percent elsewhere in the province.

We looked at why there has been success in some areas in terms of improving education outcomes for young aboriginal people. That was important. We looked at health issues and health outcomes for aboriginal people, and we spent a good deal of time and energy on economic development and what role the province could play in terms of constructively advancing some of the economic development opportunities for aboriginal communities and for aboriginal young people in British Columbia.

Certainly, everything I saw about the inaugural event last October was very, very positive. There's absolutely no question in my mind that we will be hosting a second first citizens forum, likely again at the Wosk Centre in Vancouver. I got a lot of inspiration and a lot of great ideas from that gathering. There's no question that we'll be getting more of the same when we host the second one.

J. MacPhail: Is the first citizens forum a method by which the minister is directed how to spend the First Citizens Fund?

Hon. G. Abbott: No, not in any direct sense. The first citizens forum is important for a couple of reasons. It does give us an opportunity to hear from aboriginal people all around the province about the kinds of goals and programs that we ought to be looking at in important areas like health, education and economic development.

There may be some ideas that flow from the first citizens forum that might prompt us to think about different or additional expenditures from the First Citizens Fund, but there's certainly not a direct relationship there. I think the purpose of the forum is much broader than that.

J. MacPhail: I was just curious, because at the same time as the first citizens forum occurred, there was also a meeting occurring through the Ministry of Children and Family Development around — basically, I think you could say — delegation of responsibility for child welfare issues. It was occurring at about the same time, so what's the link?

The work that is being undertaken in the Ministry of Children and Family Development is very complementary to the work that we're undertaking in Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services. The devolution that is proceeding in Children and Family Development — which will see, I think very appropriately, the responsibility and authority for child protection and child welfare issues moving, in fact, to aboriginal communities — is a key goal. I think it's very complementary to what we're attempting to do at the First Citizens Fund, the first citizens forum and a range of program initiatives that we have at Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services.

There's a study — I'm not an expert on it — that's loosely called the Harvard study, which says that communities that have control over their own destiny are healthier, stronger communities, particularly in the aboriginal context. I think that's precisely what the Minister of Children and Family Development is trying to do — see the devolution of that authority to a level where people feel, again, in control of their destiny. I think that's very much what we want to do broadly across government. It certainly is in Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services, where we want to strengthen those communities in a number of areas and allow them the opportunity to build safe, secure communities that are stronger and have all the opportunities that other British Columbians enjoy.

J. MacPhail: Where will the first citizens forum go in its next step? What happens in between the two meetings? Where do we go next?

Hon. G. Abbott: What we do at the first citizens forum is hear from aboriginal citizens, aboriginal leaders and aboriginal communities their ideas about how we can move ahead in a number of areas. The second first citizens forum will be an opportunity for us to look back and say: "Here's what we've achieved in this area. Here's where we've perhaps fallen short." There will be some benchmarking opportunities, I think, as we move forward into the future. It will be an opportunity each and every year to build on what we've done, to hear where we're getting off track, if we are, and where we can add programs or initiatives they see as beneficial in terms of advancing better health, education and economic development outcomes for aboriginal communities. It's that kind of relationship that I think we will enjoy.

We may well find — and for this we'll look for guidance to the participants from last year — that in future first citizens forums we focus on particular issue areas. If, for example, we were to hear from last year's participants that we need to devote more attention in this year's forum to education, then certainly we would try to accommodate that.

J. MacPhail: Yesterday we heard from the chair of the Treaty Commission about the concept of incremental treaty-making. Would anything such as proposals for incremental treaty-making arise out of the first citizens forum?

Hon. G. Abbott: I can't presuppose what might come out of a future first citizens forum in relation to the ideas that might emerge there. It's certainly entirely theoretically possible that one of the participants might, for example, point to forestry as an area of particular concern or significance to their band from an economic development perspective. You know, that's quite possible.

However, again, the aim of the first citizens forum is not to engage…. They're not excluded, but it's not to engage the leaders in the aboriginal organizations in issues which they might bring up more appropriately at a treaty table or in discussions with the Minister Responsible for Treaty Negotiations. It could come up, but it's not the kind of place where I think those kinds of things would play out. I think those are more detailed, technical, substantive areas that would require a more intensive discussion, but as ideas, certainly, they might emerge there.

J. MacPhail: I'm switching here to the First Citizens Fund. The funding was $33 million in the year ending '03, and it will be increased to $39 million this year to meet the government's commitment to spend $72 million. That's $72 million over two years. Perhaps the minister could outline what the First Citizens Fund money was spent on in the year ending '03 and what the plans are for the year '04.

Hon. G. Abbott: Just so we're clear…. Again, this is not news. This has been the basis of the First Citizens Fund since its inception, I think, actually back in W.A.C. Bennett's time — a long time ago, in any event. The interest is expended from that fund. The principal is not expended from that fund. The commitment which we made as a government was to see the doubling of the First Citizens Fund from $36 million to $72 million over a four-year period. We're expanding that by $9 million a year until we get to the $72 million. What's expended programmatically out of that is the interest. I think that's $3.9 million for the coming year. I think that's what the member was referencing.

In terms of what we're able to do through the funds, there are, I think, a number of very important activities that are supported by the fund. Friendship centres around the province enjoy support through the First Citizens Fund. The business loan program is funded through the fund. The student bursary program is funded through the First Citizens Fund. There's an elder transportation program that is funded through the First Citizens Fund. We have business advisory services.

Very importantly, as a program that I think all British Columbians should be very proud of, we are supporting the preservation and promotion of indigenous aboriginal languages through the fund as well. We're guided in that, of course, by the First Peoples Heritage, Language and Culture Council, who have initiated and brought on the FirstVoices.com program, which is remarkably innovative. I think it is going to be a remarkably successful program in preserving the rich heritage of the aboriginal languages that we have in the province.

J. MacPhail: Do I take it that the…? Sorry, I misread the document, the estimates. Yes, it is an expansion of the principal of which the interest is spent. So, last year there would be — I misread it; my apologies — $3.4 million spent, and this year there will $3.962 million spent. Is it just that there will be additional funding for the same programs under the First Citizens Fund?

Hon. G. Abbott: In response to the member's question, we're certainly guided in terms of the appropriate expenditure out of the First Citizens Fund by a group called the Native Economic Development Advisory Board. They give us the benefit of their advice and direction with respect to how we ought to spend the interest yielded by the account.

In terms of what's new and what's not new…. In terms of continuing activities by the fund, the business loan program is continuing and the friendship centre funding, the student bursary funding and the elders transportation funding are continuing. The business advisory piece is new, and the indigenous language

preservation again is new as well — not new this year, but new as of the last fiscal year.

J. MacPhail: We have time for, I think, one more question in this area, and if we can answer it, I'll move on to other things at the next stage in estimates.

Other than the First Citizens Fund, what is the commitment of the government to other funding or other programs out of his ministry that are targeted toward urban aboriginal populations?

Hon. G. Abbott: I think the member's question is a very important one. What we have been seeing, increasingly, in British Columbia and — I understand from my colleagues — in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and, indeed, across Canada is a shift of young aboriginal people, particularly, from reserve to urban settings. This is particularly the case in, for example, Manitoba and the concentration of aboriginal people in and around Winnipeg.

This is something that is happening among aboriginal people. It is also happening among non-aboriginal young people for that matter, because cities tend to be where the opportunities are and frequently where the excitement is in terms of their futures.

Now what happens, of course, when young aboriginal or any aboriginal people move off reserve is that the responsibility of the federal government, as the member knows — in terms of health, education, economic development and so on — becomes rather cloudy. I guess at times from the federal perspective, their responsibility shifts to the province.

We're certainly undertaking discussions with the federal government to try to bring some reason and order to this, because I think it's now about 70 percent of aboriginal people in British Columbia live off reserve and often in the large urban settings of Vancouver and big-city British Columbia. This is, generally speaking, an area where I think we're going to have to do a lot of discussion with the federal government in the future to ensure that we have a fair and balanced allocation of responsibility in terms of off-reserve aboriginal people.

In terms of what we're doing specifically…. I'm glad the member asked the question, because it gives me an opportunity to note a program in which, to their credit, the federal government has been very interested in partnering with us in the downtown east side. I mentioned earlier the Aboriginal Youth FIRST program, which we've been piloting in the northwest of British Columbia. There is a parallel program which we're undertaking in the downtown east side or the east side of Vancouver, which will involve again sports, recreation and other opportunities as an intervention in people's lives. This parallel program will involve urban aboriginal women and girls and many of the same kinds of opportunities that we've piloted in the northwest of the province in the program up there.

Hon. G. Abbott: Prad Khare is the assistant deputy minister broadly responsible for aboriginal immigration and multiculturalism. Lisa Nye is the executive director for the aboriginal directorate.

J. MacPhail: Actually, Mr. Chair, this will be my last question in this area, so I'll just ask it. What is the budget for the aboriginal directorate?

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