[ Page 10177 ]

The House met at 10:06 a.m.

Prayers.

Introduction of Bills

MISCELLANEOUS STATUTES AMENDMENT ACT (No. 3), 1998

Hon. U. Dosanjh: I move that the bill be introduced and read a first time now.

Motion approved.

Hon. U. Dosanjh: I'm pleased to introduce Bill 50. This bill amends a number of statutes. They are the Human Tissue Gift Act, the Land Act, the Liquor Control and Licensing Act, the Lottery Act, the Ministry of Lands, Parks and Housing Act, the Municipal Act, the Municipalities Enabling and Validating Act (No. 2), the Pension (Public Service) Act, the Pension Statutes Amendment Act, 1997, the Perpetuity Act, the Public Education Labour Relations Act, the Public Service Labour Relations Act, the Social Service Tax Act, the Utilities Commission Act, and the Vancouver Charter.

I will elaborate on the nature of these amendments during second reading of the bill. I'm sure they'll be elaborated much before then. Hon. Speaker, I move that the bill be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Bill 50 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Orders of the Day

Private Members' Statements

CELEBRATIONS B.C.

In the South Cariboo this year, they celebrate the Jack Gawthorn Memorial Dog Sled Races, the Little Britches Rodeo, the Great Cariboo Ride and the 100 Mile Fall Fair. In the Peace River and Alaska Highway area they celebrate the Children's Festival; this festival is celebrated in Mackenzie. In Dawson Creek there's the Mile Zero Celebrations, and in Fort Nelson it's the Canadian Open Sled Dog Races. Winterfest and Oktoberfest in Kimberley fill the community with the joy and laughter that so many of the communities live for. Beach, Bash and Boogie in Invermere, Marysville Daze in Marysville, Sam Steele Days in Cranbrook, Coal Miner Days in Sparwood -- what celebrations! In B.C.'s interior high country, the Merritt Mountain Music Festival plays host to over 80,000 people. This is four days of people that gather from all over, from as far away as New Zealand, Oregon, Montana, Alberta and Seattle. At this music festival, they celebrate their passion for country music.

Other celebrations include Douglas Lake, with their Bluegrass Festival, the Shuswap and Savona Beach festivals. At Kamloops, their flamboyant powwow. . . . Their celebrations come alive with flamboyant dancers and performers that come from as far away as New Mexico. Lytton celebrates its heritage in November, with the Remembrance Day Powwow. Almost every community in the high country hosts and celebrates a rodeo. For the wannabe cowboy, this is where you'd come to learn from the real McCoy, and this is where you would celebrate after a long, rugged, hard and challenging day on a cattle drive.

The Okanagan-Similkameen region celebrates many festivals. Beckoning you to join in their celebrations in Kelowna is the Kelowna Fringe Festival. This is a ten-day festival and a celebration of theatre, performance and community. The Peach Festival in Penticton, the Princeton Racing Days and the Vernon Winter Carnival are filled with so many outdoor activities and spectacular fireworks that are enjoyed by whole families and by relatives and friends.

I wonder: how many members here have been in an ice cream-eating contest? And this in early January. How many have played snow-pitch? The fall Okanagan Wine Festival celebrates the autumn, the harvest of grapes and award-winning wines, and I know that my colleague across the way will probably expound on the fall Okanagan Wine Festival.

Whether you're celebrating Seafest in Prince Rupert or Silver City Days in Trail, or tapping your toes at the Old Time Accordion Championship in Kimberley, it's a celebration. Cumberland this year is also celebrating its 100th year of incorporation, as they are celebrating coalminers and mining in Cumberland. Through the whole Comox Valley, they are celebrating many 100-year celebrations this year. The Vancouver International Dragon Boat Festival, Squamish Days Loggers Sports, mountaintop symphonies, pioneer days, the Victoria JazzFest International and National Ski Week at Mount Washington all tie us together as we celebrate.

[10:15]

In my own constituency of Kootenay, this year we are celebrating hundredth anniversaries all over the place. The Crowsnest railway's divisional headquarters were placed in Cranbrook, and it's probably very fortunate that it was placed in Cranbrook, because without it, Cranbrook probably wouldn't be in existence today. Also celebrating their hun-

[ Page 10178 ]

The Fernie Free Press was founded by G. G. Henderson, a newspaper man. Henderson saw great opportunity in Fernie, a small community at that time, and he made it his home. Today that press is still part of Fernie. The Free Press has been witness to many events, many tragic and many happy, and today it celebrates its 100th birthday. Christ Anglican Church in Fernie and Cranbrook also take part in celebrating their hundredth anniversary in the Kootenays.

"A proud history, a challenging future" -- that's this year's theme for the RCMP, who are celebrating their 125-year history. This weekend in Fort Steele we will be celebrating this anniversary by hosting the world-famous RCMP Musical Ride.

The Speaker: The hon. member will notice that the red light is on. Your time is completed.

E. Walsh: Hon. Speaker, I'll continue my remarks in my closing.

R. Thorpe: I'd like to thank the member for her words on celebrating British Columbia. Of course, tomorrow is a day that we'll all want to celebrate in British Columbia; it is the third annual celebration of the anniversary of British Columbia joining Canada in 1871. As all British Columbians know -- and as the Speaker mentioned in this House only yesterday -- the Lieutenant-Governor welcomes British Columbians to an open house to celebrate our province together.

You know, when we talk about celebrations, all too often we look inward and look at anniversaries or birthdays with our families and our close friends. But really, we should all look at the broader sense of celebration: celebration of our communities, celebration of ethnic and cultural histories, celebration of all religious backgrounds. Celebrations are so successful in our life in British Columbia because of the volunteers at work from the north to the south to the east and to the west of our great province, and the thousands and thousands of volunteers that are members of various service clubs.

You know, at the risk of repeating some of the celebrations that my colleague from Cranbrook mentioned, I would like to mention that there are some excellent upcoming celebrations in the province -- namely, the World Croquet Championship in Parksville, coming up in August. On August 29 we have the Seniors Games in Port Alberni. Those are the people that have helped build our great country and great province, and we wish them well in that. Although Nanaimo is not known as a grape-growing area in British Columbia, they will be having a wine-tasting in October.

Interjection.

R. Thorpe: Careful over there.

Abbotsford, one of the great communities of British Columbia, will be having, from July 31 to August 3, its Agrifair. Then, of course, we have the Indy. We are blessed in British Columbia with having one of the major automobile racing events in the world in Vancouver; that will be taking place in September. I'm going to leave the great area of Thompson-Okanagan till the end, as they will be having some events. But when we go up to Williams Lake, from August 22 to 23 there'll be the Cariboo Fall Fair and Rodeo, a great event. Then in Taylor, from August 1 to 2, there'll be the World Invitational Gold-Panning Championships.

Why I'm mentioning some of these events, festivals and activities is because, unfortunately, our dollar is taking a battering against the currency to the south, so perhaps what people and families in British Columbia should be doing is taking the opportunity to stay home and travel throughout British Columbia in the balance of this summer and into the fall, and visit some of these great events. I would just like to tell people that Tourism B.C. has a great calendar of events. I'm sure if people would like to contact Tourism B.C., they'd be pleased to provide information on these activities.

In Kitimat, in September, there'll be the thirteenth annual Fish Derby. Then when we go over to Comox, the Comox Valley Fall Home Show '98 will take place between October 2 and 4. Then -- we all know, hon. Speaker -- the great Canadian Terry Fox Run will be September 13 in the Comox Valley. You know, there are just hundreds and thousands of activities, events and celebrations that we can enjoy here in British Columbia. But the key to me is the bringing together of communities and of volunteers in these events.

Of course, I would be very remiss if I didn't say that the great area of the South Okanagan -- the riding of Okanagan-Penticton -- which is known for its warm hospitality, kindness and generosity, will be having some events. On August 5 to 9, we'll be having the Peach Festival, and we'll have our jazz festival in the first week of September. We'll have the Penticton ironman competition on the last weekend in August, and that's a tremendous event for which we have 5,000 volunteers participating. As I close, the great event is the eighteenth annual Okanagan Wine Festival, which has grown into an international event. We, of course, welcome everyone in British Columbia and in the area to visit and celebrate these great celebrations with all British Columbians.

E. Walsh: I thank my colleague across the way for his remarks and also for his tour through this great province of ours. I'm glad that he was able to finish on that note with the wine festival in the Okanagan.

I just want to talk a little bit more about the Kootenays. This weekend in Fort Steele, I'm really pleased that joining me in the celebrations with the RCMP Musical Ride will be our Minister of Small Business, Tourism and Culture and also the MLA for Columbia River-Revelstoke. I think that joining together in these celebrations shows the coming together of our communities and the people in British Columbia. The RCMP is a symbol of how we have grown as a nation and another thread in that fabric.

I don't want to forget, either, about the celebrations we celebrate this year in this very building, with the hundredth anniversary of the parliament buildings in Victoria. And there is Canada Day, which we just celebrated not only throughout British Columbia but throughout Canada. What a celebration!

Celebrations are an acknowledgment of our past, and they are our hope for our future. Every person and every community -- everyone throughout British Columbia -- has a story to tell. What pride we feel when we tell our story to other people and share those stories of our living history with our children, our communities, our friends and the visitors that come to British Columbia. These books of life that we collectively create throughout the province are the celebrations of who we are, what we are and who we are proud to be. We're proud of our culture; we're proud of our heritage; we're

[ Page 10179 ]

NINETIES DRIFTS ON CULTURAL SHIFTS

Most, if not all, parents have struggled at one time or another with how they would interest or reinterest their child in the things they do not find interesting: the four-year-old who ignores the 83 toys spread on his bedroom floor and says that he's bored and there's nothing to do; the 15-year-old who steals a car and comes into an institution -- and the most common response when asked why they did it is: "I was bored. There was nothing to do." What happens between the ages of three and 15 that they're giving the same type of response?

A parent's role, I believe, must be to develop the sense of fascination, to show the four-year-old new ways to play and, hopefully, to rekindle their interest. The lessons must have immediacy if they are to last. Since the 1960s, our society has been subject to at least three factors which seem to have stripped many families of their motivation for learning.

Firstly, television and the advent of computers and video games have substituted the quality of human interaction with a bombardment of impersonal stimulation. They have reduced the time for and quality of integration which helps children to learn familial and societal values. Our children are bombarded with information and with stimuli from a very early age: radio, television, music, video games, movies -- all powerful formers and shapers of the adolescent psyche. There is greater and greater competition for learning, and entertainment is very often the mode. The process of play and of learning intrinsically rewarding activities has slipped further away, as our children's locus of control and interest moves further away from them and their internally developing value systems. That extrinsically controlled abyss of pop culture, of mass media and all that it entails seems to take over. We are now seeing many more 15-year-olds -- adolescents -- bored with life, because the early lessons, the lessons that need to be taught in the ages one through five, are often not being taught. We seem to now foster many youths who require an intrinsic sense of motivation in order to become engaged in an activity.

Secondly, hon. Speaker, toys have changed dramatically. The objects of play have become very complex. There is no longer the need for imagination, one of the primary sources of learning, a process which helps the individual to become an active participant in the process of play -- the process by which the individual finds his spontaneous sense of joy. Today, toys are so realistic that we don't need to conceptualize. We see toy guns which are now able to be used in robberies because they appear to be so real. We see dolls which are so anatomically correct that they do many things that humans do. That representational realism these toys present doesn't allow for that sense of play, imagination and conceptualization which is so important in developing a sense of joy and learning.

Thirdly, we've seen many families with two parents both working or with single parents having to work, families who cannot often afford to have a parent in the home to teach those early lessons, who can get on the floor with their three-year-old and their toys, show them how to deal with their boredom and show them through immediacy that dolls can fly and that trucks can do different things, so they can create interest and kindle their imagination, to inject into their personality and perception a changing view of the world. If we don't do that, then I believe the child who has grown up watching programs such as "Sesame Street" on TV -- good programs. . . . When they start grade 1, in school their teacher not only has to be an educator but an entertainer, just to get their interest, because it's so much more fun and so much easier to learn the alphabet from Big Bird than it ever would be from a teacher.

As we push our children to do what we think is correct and important, and when we push them to take the piano lessons, I believe that we push at least until our sense is that the pushing is doing more damage than creating rewards which would be gleaned from perseverance. We now often see children who are bored at a circus, when in the past we so often saw children fascinated by a grain of sand. The spontaneous sense of joy which was once prevalent in our youth seems to have waned. We have to rekindle it through the process of play, a process which has been eroded in the past due in part to our society's heavy reliance on many extrinsic, impersonal activities which occur in early childhood and, in part, are a result of cultural shifts in parenting styles, television and toys.

[10:30]

I was born way back in 1943, 54 years ago -- I guess almost three generations ago. In my case, my mother was always at home looking after the ten of us; I guess she had to be. There was no television in our home; we entertained ourselves. We grew up in a more innocent society -- maybe in some cases too innocent a society, possibly. Most families in those days -- as the hon. member across the floor mentioned -- had two parents. Most often in those days one parent was working very hard at home, of course, to assist in bringing up those children into a better world, if possible. A lot of activities that I had as a youth were not about money. They were about outdoors activity: playing in the field, enjoying nature, walking around, playing ball, running and playing hide-and-seek. Money wasn't that important in those days.

In my case, I walked to school, and I'd see many things as I walked to school -- and, of course, I had a bit of exercise doing that. One reason I walked to school was because there weren't any buses in those days. I'm really making myself seem very old here.

Today, in the 1990s, our youth are growing up in a tougher world. There is less innocence; it's a more wicked world. It's tougher for our youth to grow up today than it was for many of us here in this House today. There are many single parents today, or both parents are working. Many of our children don't have -- as I and many in this House had -- a parent to answer the door when they come home from school. Many children are going home to empty homes.

The entertainment when they do get home, in many cases, is that television in the corner. I feel that this is not good

[ Page 10180 ]

I feel that we in this House, as parents and in some cases grandparents, have a great responsibility to our children and our youth. We adults, as I said, grew up in an easier world. I feel that we have the responsibility to communicate with our youth. Let's go for walks with our youth; tell them about nature; make them realize that the entertainment that we sometimes provide for them as parents is not the most important thing. There are many outdoor things for youth to enjoy. Let's remember that our youth are tomorrow's leaders, tomorrow's MLAs, tomorrow's government, so that what we do with them will assist them to make their life easier when they grow up.

A little love goes a long way. Time, not dollars, is very important to spend with our children and our grandchildren. Let us give our youth a hand up. We have a responsibility to do that. Let's work together as families. I had a lot of help as a child from my parents. I feel that we have that responsibility too, as parents, to assist our youth in the tougher world that they are growing up in, with more temptation. We have that responsibility to assist them to become better adults.

G. Hogg: I thank the member for Columbia River-Revelstoke for his personal reflections on growing up and for relating those to the culture and society of the day and the comparisons which they draw today. I certainly support his comments.

The factors which he and I spoke of, factors such as television, toys and new parenting styles. . . . I think that, if we we're not careful, they may influence many changes in the near future -- changes which may result in the personally and societally destructive tendencies which can come from an approach which is dictated more by personal interest than by public interest. I think that approach -- an approach based on personal interest -- forces us and those who function in that model to look only in the short term and to look through a very parsimonious, non-integrated thought process. It could take away our ability to put together the ideas necessary to form a caring and evolving society -- skills which are crucial to this House.

Perhaps the first steps toward change involve awareness, thoughtful examination, and, most importantly -- as the member for Columbia River-Revelstoke highlighted -- dialogue and discussion. I hope that we will continue to increase our dialogue and that we will engage in these activities in our homes, our schools and our public institutions across this province in an effort to highlight some of the shifts that have taken place. They can so often occur without awareness, as they happen so slowly. I believe it's time we step back and, in those venues, look at the changes that have been taking place and the impacts they're having on us.

ELECTRONIC HOME INVASION

To have a healthy society, people have a special need: the need for privacy. We need to have the right to determine when, how and to what extent information about ourselves is being communicated to others. The classic and chilling novel 1984 disturbed us with images of Big Brother -- an all-seeing government watching the lives of every citizen. In truth, it is not government threatening our privacy, as George Orwell predicted. In British Columbia we are proud to have the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, which fairly balances the right of access to information held by public bodies with strong personal privacy protection of that information. Big Brother is not watching you; business is.

Here is just one alarming example. PhotoInfo Digital Photography is a Calgary-based company that is creating a computerized database of all real estate properties, including residential, industrial and commercial properties. Their goal is to maintain a database of all real estate in North America. To do this, the company has a photographer from the area go street by street and photograph every property. That photograph is added to an electronic database on the Internet. With the click of a computer mouse and the stroke of a few keys, that database can be accessed, and there on the screen is your house -- or anybody else's -- complete with address, a rating of its condition, its marketability, the neighbourhood, value range and description.

So far, this company has completed its database for Calgary and Saskatoon and is now completing the lower mainland and the lower Island. They have about 1.5 million pictures so far. They try to take 6,000 pictures a day, seven days a week. This database is also available for sale on CD-ROM.

All this is perfectly legal, but it raises some serious questions about privacy. PhotoInfo's owners say that they will photograph only what is visible from the street. They say that they will not trespass, nor will they include people in their photos or include names. Can homeowners depend on this with only the company's word for it? I think that's a question we all have to consider as we take our responsibility as representatives for the public. Who has access to this database? Can we trust that personal information about our homes will be in reliable hands?

PhotoInfo's owners say that they service a select group of clients, such as real estate boards, bank mortgage appraisers and insurance companies. Even if one agrees that this is a reasonable group to have custody of such personal information -- and many would think not -- this is contradicted by the company itself. On their web site they say that they take digital photographs on demand for real estate classified ads, employee databases and business people who need to see almost anything quickly. They brag: "A client can see anything, anywhere, instantly, through the computer screen." A national client can order hundreds of photos around the world through a single-source PhotoInfo.

Brad Stinson, one of the co-owners of the company, was asked by a reporter whether, if he wanted a picture of a politician's house, he would be given access. His answer was: "Sure, that would probably be an okay use." Information and privacy commissioner David Flaherty said that even though personal names are not included with the photos, it's child's play to get that information. You can use a reverse directory or stay on your computer and check the assessment roll. From there, an electronic phone book lets you look up phone numbers.

PhotoInfo says that anybody who does not want their home on the database may contact them and have it removed. There are three things wrong with that. Firstly, you may not be aware that your photo is there in the first place. These pictures are taken in the daytime, when no people are in the shot. It

[ Page 10181 ]

The Attorney General has called this absolutely ludicrous. It's important for all of us, not only in this House but the general public, to be aware of this information. Uncontrolled private information like this can be used in some very ominous ways. Thieves can use it to case out a neighbourhood, abusive ex-spouses to find someone, and con artists could find this a great tool to target likely victims. Even if the information is used legally, the householder could be plagued with unwanted solicitations. The marketing uses of a database like this are monumental.

It's perfectly legal. Companies such as PhotoInfo demonstrate the great need for the protection of our privacy from the business sector. Personal information in the hands of the public body is protected by statute, both federally and provincially.

The Speaker: Hon. member, your time is up for this portion of your remarks.

J. Smallwood: Thank you, hon. Speaker. I look forward to the response.

[10:45]

Planning departments in cities and towns today use this information, and they use it exactly for the purpose of planning existing neighbourhoods and redoing neighbourhoods.

Though I do not in any way support the commercialization of that type of data, I must also say that this fact of partial use by official authorities has, I think, given these commercial operators a sense not of endorsement but of having a level of comfort. The system is not exclusively used for the purpose that the member stated in her address. It is not just the realtors -- that seems to be a bad word -- or the insurance companies that use it, and it is not used just to identify bad elements in a neighbourhood.

I'd like to caution the member that when we identify a problem, as she just has -- and I agree that there's a problem from an invasiveness perspective -- we don't try to tar segments of our business society in the process. I believe that what's happening today with the digitization of information and its availability on CD-ROM is a sign, in a sense, of the fast-tracking of the whole electronic development. It was only 100 years ago that we truly began to see aspects of the electronic ability to enter into a life, and we have had many great and positive experiences because of opportunities created by electronic development. Education has been enriched, and we are able to communicate with far regions that otherwise would not be communicating with larger populated areas.

I'd like to say that maybe this particular problem is something we have to deal with quickly but that it is almost a consequence of the fast-tracking of the use of the electronic media in our society. I stated earlier on that I was going to be very careful of how I would phrase my words, because I really understand what the member is trying to share with us as a point of fear. But I hope it will not be translated into something that means that everything having to do with opportunities created by the electronic media has to be seen as evil. With that, I look forward to a quick response to my words.

J. Smallwood: I think the respondent touches on the key question. Because of the new technology, society in general is trying to catch up with the implications, and it's important that we do wrestle with that fundamental question with respect to privacy. It's also important that we all understand that personal information in the hands of public bodies is protected by statute, both federally and provincially. In this area, our Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act is exemplary, but there is no equal legislation for the business sector.

Standards are voluntary, and this is not right. Our information and privacy commissioner has long advocated legislation to regulate the collection of personal information by the private sector. Our Attorney General agrees that this is an important area, but British Columbia cannot go it alone. We need the cooperation of the federal government. Businesses that use Internet can be located anywhere, and many, such as banks and telecommunications companies, are federally regulated. With the exception of Quebec, businesses in Canada are almost completely unregulated, except by market force, in relation to the use and reuse of personal information.

I've discussed this situation with the Attorney General. I'm glad to say that he shares my concerns about companies such as PhotoInfo and that his ministry is examining this issue. Our privacy is important. Our government has done an excellent job in protecting privacy in the public sector, but the private sector is the new frontier.

BOGS ARE BEAUTIFUL

A bog is a special kind of wetland. It is a strangely beautiful wilderness where plants have adapted to extremes. Only dwarf pines, insect-eating plants, acid-producing mosses and hardy northern shrubs survive. A lodgepole pine, for example, grows naturally bonsaied in Burns Bog. A 70-year-old tree might stand only one metre tall. This special community of bog plants is adapted to wet, acidic and nutrient-poor conditions. These plants cannot compete with vegetation in richer soils, and other vegetation cannot compete in the bog. All these factors make bogs unique and fascinating environments.

[ Page 10182 ]

A trip to Burns Bog with binoculars will show that this gem is important to our habitat as part of this living planet. There are over 150 species of birds that make their home in the bog. Among them is the threatened greater sandhill crane and the lower mainland's largest population of bald eagles. Thousands of waterfowl, including the trumpeter swan and other migratory birds, use the ponds in the bog as feeding grounds. Burns Bog also provides a habitat for 28 species of mammals, including black bear, black-tailed deer, red fox, bobcat, coyote and beaver. Burns Bog is indeed a unique area of the lower mainland, an area that we can all appreciate and an area that we must protect for our children and future generations.

The evolution of a bog is a fascinating process. Twelve thousand years ago, glaciers covered the lower mainland. As the ice began to melt 7,000 years ago, the Burns Bog area became tidal flats. Deposits travelled down the Fraser River, eventually building the Fraser Delta and creating a lake where Burns Bog is now. At this point, 5,000 years ago, rushes, cattails and sedges started to grow along the shores of the lake. Over 1,500 years, the growth, decay and regrowth of vegetation produced a rotting organic material. This turned into peat, which started to fill in the lake. We have layers of vegetation that continue to grow and die on top of each successive layer, into what could be seen today.

Over the last 100 years, however, human activities such as clearing, burning, diking, draining and filling have altered the bog ecosystem. Unfortunately, Burns Bog is adjacent to the Vancouver landfill, which is not helpful in maintaining the bog ecosystem. The future of the bog really depends on all of us. David Suzuki, a noted biologist, stated: "Burns Bog is one of a vanishing kind. It should be left completely alone." David Bellamy, a world-renowned botanist, has stated: "Burns Bog could become the showpiece of a nation that really cares."

This is a job that we must accept. Burns Bog must become a showpiece not only for the citizens of Delta but for the citizens of the province and the country. I would like to urge at this time that the government of this province -- perhaps the Minister of Environment and the Minister of Tourism -- should act by providing guidance, as well as financial aid, in order to save this ecological wonder.

J. Sawicki: I really want to thank the hon. member for what I think is one of the more excellent descriptions of a bog and bog formations that I have heard. I too am a great fan of Burns Bog. I've had quite a bit of personal experience there, as well, speaking at some of the conferences that have been organized to highlight the awareness of the uniqueness of Burns Bog that we have here in British Columbia. I also, in my former life as a land use consultant, did some work around the edges, where it has been peat-mined.

I have also been very humbled by the magic, mystery and surprises that that bog can hold. I wasn't concentrating one day on where I was walking -- I was looking at my air photograph -- and very quickly found myself up to my armpits in a ditch. There are a lot of ditches that are covered in with all sorts of vegetation. It is a very fascinating place to walk and to experience a tremendous diversity of plants, wildlife and insects. In fact, some of the plants in Burns Bog are some of the rarest plants in the world. Many people do not realize that we have this just outside our back door.

The hon. member is also correct in highlighting some of the other really important aspects of the bog, and that is the functional role it plays in maintaining the quality of life in a very rapidly growing part of North America. Burns Bog is a huge carbon sink. It traps greenhouse gases, which contribute to global warming. I think it's fascinating that by just being there, Burns Bog is estimated to hold over 21.6 million tonnes of carbon dioxide. That's equivalent to the annual emission of 5.4 million cars. That bog does all of that work for us, as well as acts as a filter -- the kidneys of the water system -- and a thermostat for the waterways in that part of the lower mainland. It does all of those natural things for free. All we as human beings have to do is protect it, in order to ensure that it can continue to evolve and continue to do its good work and, quite frankly, continue to provide for us a very unique experience.

[11:00]

With that, without anticipating too directly what my hon. colleague across the way would be ending with, I want to thank him for raising this issue and to congratulate all of the people in Delta who continue to work to protect this bog.

R. Masi: I appreciate the remarks of the member for Burnaby-Willingdon, and I realize that we have a strong supporter there in relation to Burns Bog.

I'd just like to end by saying that there were a number of celebrations announced earlier in the program today, but a very important celebration that's coming up seemed to be overlooked. International Bog Day is on Sunday, July 26. It

[ Page 10183 ]

We hope that the members here would be aware of this, and I'll extend an open invitation to all members to attend. I might add that for anyone who's coming by transit -- and I hope you do -- a shuttle bus will run throughout the day from the Scott Road SkyTrain station directly to the forum. There will be interesting things, like guided nature walks through the Delta Nature Reserve at 9 o'clock, and the opening ceremony begins at 11 o'clock. You know, there will be a ride in a hot-air balloon, and there will be helicopters and a bus tour of the watershed park. This is a fine ecological day that I hope all the people will get involved in. The numbers are going up each year. We've gone from hundreds to thousands that have come. That's an open invitation.

I would like to close by again urging the provincial government, especially the Ministry of Environment and the Ministry of Tourism, to look at this carefully and to realize what a gem we have in Burns Bog. Also, again, I'd like to acknowledge the contribution of the member for Burnaby-Willingdon -- her hard work; I hope she continues.

Hon. D. Streifel: I call Committee of Supply. For the information of the members, we'll be examining the estimates of the Ministry of Health and Ministry Responsible for Seniors.

The House in Committee of Supply; E. Walsh in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF HEALTH AND MINISTRY RESPONSIBLE FOR SENIORS
(continued)

S. Hawkins: Just for clarification purposes, yesterday we were talking about savings that the ministry was going to achieve with respect to regionalization. Yesterday, to refresh the minister's memory, she told me that there were going to be 200 positions eliminated at a cost savings of $13-$14 million and that $24 million was going to be the total saving between 1997 and the year 2000. So over three years, the ministry was going to achieve a $24 million saving -- another $10 million over the 200 positions eliminated.

But you know, the very frustrating part is that we find that last year the then Minister of Health put out a press release. This is how the numbers keep changing, and we have to keep asking the ministry where they're getting their numbers from. On December 2, 1996, the then Minister of Health, who's now the Finance minister. . . . It kind of concerns me that the numbers keep changing, and she's now in charge of finances for the whole province. She said that 323 positions will be eliminated before the end of the current fiscal year, resulting in a cost saving of $21 million -- so that would be fiscal year 1997 -- and a further $7 million in administration by cutting spending on items such as travel and office expenses. She said then that $28 million would be saved each year as a result of these reductions, and that's in addition to $24 million in savings expected next year from regional health bureaucracy reductions. She said that in all of the savings, we are achieving some $52 million.

Now, that doesn't seem to fit with what the minister said yesterday -- 200 positions at $13-$14 million and then another $10 million over the next three years. The former minister said $24 million in a year and 323 positions at a cost saving of $21 million and then $28 million a year, for a total of $52 million in savings. So can the minister please tell us: who's right? What exactly has been achieved? Have they decreased the savings that they're going to realize? Have they decreased their estimate now because they have better numbers? Or was this minister just making up numbers? Yesterday the minister couldn't give us any hard and fast numbers. Who was right? I guess what I'm asking is: were they right a year ago, in December 1996, for the fiscal year 1997? Or have we rearranged the numbers now because we know some new information, and 223 positions weren't eliminated -- only 200 were eliminated? Can the minister give us some idea of how they rearranged the numbers now to make it fit with what she said yesterday?

Hon. P. Priddy: I think there are two kinds of savings we are talking about here. Last year, I believe, people spoke of $28 million on an annual basis from the Ministry of Health, not from the regions. That was 323 positions for an annual saving of $21 million, plus $7 million in administrative savings, which make a total of $28 million annually from the Ministry of Health if you look at it from a central office perspective. On top of that are the 200 positions and the $13-$14 million from the regions. So we are consistent in the numbers.

S. Hawkins: Can the minister tell us, then, where the 323 positions were eliminated from in the ministry and what 200 positions on top of that were eliminated from the regions?

Hon. P. Priddy: The 323 positions. . . . If people will recall, when regionalization began, there were 3,000 ministry positions that went out to the regions. As a result of that, there were significantly fewer administrative positions required for the central office, or Victoria operations. Those would include positions in finance, human resources and other areas. The 200 positions in the regions are made up, for example, by combining five human resources directors. If you combine five human resources departments, you only need one director of human resources. It's the bringing together integratively of those programs that allows those kinds of position savings in the regions.

S. Hawkins: Has the ministry done any audits to track this? Unless the minister will commit to putting it on paper so that we can see where the minister is saying we're realizing these savings. . . . Perhaps if the ministry has done some audits over the last couple of years to show that there are actually positions that have been eliminated and there have been savings realized, the Legislature can actually see that this is what's been done. We have trouble keeping track of what the ministry is doing. We have numbers and a press release a year ago, and the minister stood up yesterday and gave us other numbers over a three-year period. This minister told us the numbers were over a one-year period. What has the ministry done to actually track these savings? Has the ministry done audits to track the savings so the Legislature can see that the ministry is actually achieving what it set out to achieve?

[11:15]

S. Hawkins: Will the ministry commit to making that public?

[ Page 10184 ]

S. Hawkins: Could the minister tell us when we can get that? Is the ministry in the process of doing audits, or are there audits considered, or are there audits already done that track the savings in the millions which the minister talked about a year ago and this minister talked about yesterday?

Hon. P. Priddy: Two things. One of them is that we have not done a specific audit on those 200 positions, but each and every one of those regions does have audited reports, audited information, about its entire budget. That is reviewed by the ministry when it comes in. Secondly, I think I did commit to the report card at the end of this calendar year, which would include that information.

S. Hawkins: Just one question, finally, around that: when can we expect that report?

Hon. P. Priddy: Sorry?

S. Hawkins: The review that the minister is talking about, of the 200 positions -- when will she make that public?

Hon. P. Priddy: We are just updating that because, as the member recalls from yesterday, some of those positions were eliminated mid-year. I would say that the member can have it within about two weeks.

S. Hawkins: I'll be following that up with the minister.

Another concern that actually came out of regional health board spending last year was the $1,000-a-day Cull contract. I'm sure the minister will recall that Elizabeth Cull contract with the capital health region; I'm sure the minister will recall the uproar and furore around that in the last year. This government committed to bringing in guidelines to prevent regional health boards from offering the kind of $1,000-a-day contracts to NDP hacks. This government promised to set up guidelines and said it would review the kind of spending that the regional health boards did.

In fact, the Premier was quoted last year as saying: "I'm quite concerned about the proliferation of these kinds of contracts. I've been concerned about the high cost of administration and large bureaucracies. We need to get more money down to service delivery." Last year the Premier would not reveal what form the guidelines might take or when they would be drafted.

The B.C. Nurses Union president, Ms. Ivory Warner, said that guidelines are long overdue to prevent huge payoffs to consultants and managers not working directly for government. Certainly the nurses held a rally outside one of the hospitals last year in Victoria to protest the disparity between those working for hospitals and those working for government, getting rich contracts. Now I'm wondering if the ministry has prepared the guidelines and if the ministry is prepared to make those guidelines public.

Hon. P. Priddy: I will rely historically on the people who have been there during that time. My understanding is that the Premier, in the comments he made that the member referred to, was talking about CEO contracts -- particularly about the contracts and components of contracts for CEOs in the health regions. Certainly HEABC has those guidelines around the contracts and is ensuring that those are in force.

My staff does not recall a particular commitment being given for guidelines around the kind of contract that the member just referenced. But I do know that the minister, subsequent to that particular contract, met with all of the health authorities to suggest and say to them that those kinds of contracts would be unacceptable.

S. Hawkins: The article I'm reading from was January 28, 1997. It very clearly says: "The B.C. government will bring in guidelines to prevent regional health boards from offering the kind of $1,000-a-day contract given to former Finance minister Elizabeth Cull, [the Premier] said Monday." That's what the Premier said. The article goes on to quote him as saying he's very concerned about those kinds of contracts. He's quoted here as saying: "A health care board should not be spending $1,000 a day on consultants. I don't think it's anything specific to Ms. Cull. . .I think the question is why are health care boards spending this kind of money on communication consultants? I don't understand it. I don't accept it." He was quoted on radio and TV as saying that, and I remember that.

We brought that up in the House last session, and we asked about guidelines. At that time, the minister told us there was a review. We were wondering: why, when the government has had over a year to consider this, aren't there any guidelines in place for boards to consider when they're hiring consultants like this?

Hon. P. Priddy: I think the member is correct, as the Premier was, that those kinds of contracts are unacceptable. I'm just having someone check this, but my understanding is that there was written communication -- I would want to reconfirm, so that I'm being accurate -- with the health authorities. Aside from the minister meeting with them, there was written communication with the health authorities indicating that they would only be expected to pay fair market value for contracts, and that was apparently quite strongly stated. But people are checking for that letter.

In terms of the article that the member quoted, I would have to go back to whatever dialogue there was between the Premier and the minister at the time. But we will find the letter and bring that forward.

S. Hawkins: We hope there is a letter, and we hope there are clear guidelines -- a clear statement to the health authorities -- for that kind of spending. We've heard this minister and the former minister, and we've certainly heard the critic, say that health care dollars are few and far between, and the last thing we need is patients to know that their dollars are being pilfered by contracts like this. That is not the kind of spending that patients expect a responsible government to be doing in times when we hear that health care dollars are scarce, waiting lists are out of control and people have to search across the border for health care because they're not getting it in a timely manner in this province. So we hope that this government did take some leadership in the last year and provide the health authorities with guidelines with respect to this. I did hear the minister say that she'll bring it forward and make that letter public.

With respect to CEO spending, we talked about boards yesterday, and we talked about boards being remunerated for expenses. What guidelines are in place for CEOs to be remunerated for expenses, and are there guidelines for their spending?

[ Page 10185 ]

S. Hawkins: Yes, I would appreciate the document. We FOI'd the spending of one CEO, and that CEO was Inge Schamborzki. Hon. Chair, when I look at the kind of expenses that this CEO incurred in her reign on the North Shore, I find it shocking, to say the least. I could go through a whole list: Yohachi Sushi restaurant, the Ginger Jar for office expenses. . . . The expenses are listed in the hundreds and thousands here. I'm wondering what kind of spending, then, is the ministry saying is okay for a CEO to incur. What is reasonable when we're cutting back on hospital beds, we're cutting back in the regions and we're limiting the number of procedures that hospitals can do? The CEOs are all responsible for those kinds of cutbacks, and then they go around spending like a drunken fool. I look at this, and I find it incredible that the province, the ministry and the health authorities can approve spending like this.

I'm wondering if the minister is aware of those guidelines and if she can tell us that those guidelines she is saying are in place for CEOs also applied to this CEO. In the last year, this CEO. . . . The minister knows that this CEO was ultimately fired, and now the health authority is paying for continuation of her contract while she's looking for a position. On top of paying for all these expenses, I understand that the patients on the North Shore are also still paying for her salary. I'm wondering if the kinds of expenses this CEO incurred are within the guidelines that the minister says are set out for CEOs and if the minister thinks that's an appropriate kind of spending.

Hon. P. Priddy: There is an HEABC policy around CEO spending guidelines. I can't speak to this particular one, but it's certainly up to the board to ensure that any money spent is within those guidelines. It's up to the auditor -- and I don't know if this is entirely audited -- to ensure and in her or his professional judgment, which puts their reputation on the line, to therefore sign off that those expenses either were appropriate or fit within the guidelines. I don't know about these particular ones, but if they've been audited, then an auditor has matched those to the guidelines and has said they're acceptable.

S. Hawkins: I think it's up to the minister to decide if these are acceptable. An auditor can say whether these go with the guidelines, but I think that ultimately the minister, given the tight resources she has within the health care budget -- which she says she tries to spread across the province to make it fair for all the patients. . . . I don't think patients on the North Shore have been treated fairly in the last year. They've paid out severance pay twice, for two CEOs -- one for a hospital and one being this CEO -- and then they're paying expenses for this CEO on top of that.

We see this CEO going to Renaissance Orlando Resort in Florida. We see this CEO off to San Francisco and flying around all over the place when patients can't even get an ambulance to the hospital in their communities and are being asked to go from Burnaby over to the North Shore and then are booted back to Burnaby. They can't even get an ambulance to a hospital, and we see a CEO spending like this. I wonder if the minister would acknowledge that it is her responsibility to make sure that the boards know what kind of spending is acceptable.

[11:30]

I don't think patients are well served in this province under this minister or certainly under the last minister, when we see spending abuse like this. That's what it looks like to me. I think that it ultimately does rest on the shoulders of the minister. Will the minister commit to looking at those guidelines and giving the health authorities some kind of framework that's acceptable for CEO spending? In the last year, obviously, whatever guidelines are in place, this is the kind of spending that happened. Will the minister agree to look at those guidelines and talk to the health authorities about what kind of CEO spending is acceptable and then get back to the House to let us know she's done that?

Hon. P. Priddy: Yes, I will.

A. Sanders: I rise to enter the debate on regionalization of health care in British Columbia. For those who may not have all of the history of regionalization, we started the regionalization experiment in 1991, under the title of Closer to Home. In the community that I lived in at that time, it quickly became a change from Closer to Home to "closure at home," and that was indicative of the two years' change in the number of beds at the hospital where I worked -- going from a 100-bed hospital that was actually funded for around 78 to being a hospital that had 48 beds, with a psychiatry patient next to a maternity patient next to a long term care patient next to a child, and so on and so forth.

At that time, we had the assistant deputy ministers going around the province, with meetings about regionalization. Often there were terse comments from the assistant deputy ministers, such as one I heard in Penticton, where the deputy said: "Why should women deliver babies in Vanderhoof? Regionalization will have them delivered in Prince George; after all, Vanderhoof does not do that many deliveries a year, and really, should we be offering them the opportunity to deliver in Vanderhoof?" This was very much the opposite of the Closer to Home philosophy when regionalization was actually put into practice.

We then moved on, several years later, to find in smaller centres such as Merritt the actuality of no longer having first babes born in those communities but sent out of the communities. The then minister's comments at that time were that we would be having midwives come in and take over that responsibility. We won't even go into the midwife question at this point. Look at the unnecessary deaths that have occurred in this province -- one of them in my own community.

We basically had a Closer to Home that was "closure at home." We had a health accord that started to bankrupt the health care system, and we moved in 1993 into the community health council concept -- the next step in the regionalization. At that point, we had the politicization of the appointed boards with party faithful and sham appointments of the citizenry and communities that were the so-called applicants to go on to the community health council.

I know that from firsthand knowledge, because I was actually on the board of the steering committee for the com-

[ Page 10186 ]

In 1996 we then had the admission that regionalization was an abysmal failure and an attempt by this government to reorganize again. At that time, one of the ideal and optimal situations we could have had with the regionalization concept would have been to take it to the Select Standing Committee on Health. That select standing committee, composed of members from all sides of the House, from all parties, could have been given the mandate to go out in the province and look at what was going wrong with regionalization and why the care of individuals was deteriorating in every community that could be named.

It was suggested by this side of the House and by the member for Okanagan West, who at that time was the Health critic, that a select standing committee be sent out across the province to look at the problem. Instead of allowing that to happen, and instead of having volunteers from this side of the House, who cumulatively had thousands of hours of experience in acute care, community health councils, urban and rural medicine, acute nursing and administration of nursing -- in many aspects of care -- that was denied.

The government sent out a regional assessment team to look at the problems from a very narrow scope, through a very dull lens. It came back with a list of recommendations that were made to the government in 1991, '92 and so on, all the way through to 1996. None of the changes they came back with were particularly perceptive. They were the things that those in the know had been saying all the way through.

Now we're back to 1998, and we're here at a time when government is trying to abrogate the responsibility it has during its tenure for wait-lists and the northern health care crisis. I refer to this as a crisis for women and children in the north, as they represent almost 90 percent or more of the patients we are talking about when we talk about those affected by a northern health care crisis. We're talking about abrogation of critical care, emergency care, home care, intermediate care -- all of which are fraying at the seams, falling apart and in crisis. We now have a time when government is trying to blur the mismanagement of health care resources by putting its energy into such things as class war with different parts of the health care societies. I think that is certainly a wrong step. It is a backward step and is certainly something that I do not wish to see my government dealing with as the first issue in looking at the crisis in health care.

Hon. Chair, what have we got in British Columbia in 1998 in terms of our heath care system? Well, first of all, we have one of our biggest hospitals, Vancouver General Hospital, open fewer days for elective surgery than the average elementary school is open. We have one of our biggest hospitals taking one day a month for what they call health accord days. Those are the leftover hours that would have to be paid extra in order to staff. We have hospitals off for spring break, we have hospitals slow down, if not close, for three weeks at Christmas, and we have hospital closures or slowdowns during the entire summer. Now we have our largest hospital, Vancouver General, with not only all that but also one RAD day per month also, where the hospital basically takes a corporate day in order to try to keep within the budget that they've been given to operate with. That's one of our big hospitals. That's the kind of service we get from Vancouver General Hospital and the way that they have tried to creatively live within the budget they've been given to live within by this minister and this Ministry of Health.

We also have Children's Hospital, St. Paul's, Women's Health Centre, all with RAD days -- no outpatient department on that day, no lab other than the weekend-style basic blood test, no elective surgery -- emergency surgery only. We have the same thing at Lions Gate and Peace Arch. We have one of the hospitals in Victoria which is closed to elective surgery 40 days of the year, that does not include holidays. We have ORs that do exist around the province but are regularly closed down. They exist in Burnaby, Lions Gate, VGH, Eagle Ridge, Surrey Memorial, Royal Inland, Ladysmith, Vernon, Jubilee, Prince George, Terrace and Nelson. The surgery is not done there despite the fact the ORs exist, because the OR is not funded.

When we look at the waiting lists and people wonder how the waiting lists got that way and the minister makes the comment that it's because the physicians have backed up the waiting list, we can readily recognize that if those ORs were open, what kind of surgery could be done and what kind of bite could be taken out of the waiting lists that we have in this province.

In Kelowna we have a colposcopy clinic, a clinic that diagnoses cancer of the cervix, which ran out of money in January of this year and did not do any colposcopies in February and March. There was a four-month wait list for colposcopy. The clinic just basically went broke, and the service was no longer offered.

We have swing beds at one of Victoria's hospitals that include a broom closet on the ward. We have three- and four-hour waits in the emergency room in Victoria. One thing I thought I would never see. . . . We have patients in a Victoria hospital, in the capital city, with oxygen in the waiting room because they are usually so sick by the time people get to see them that they required oxygen long ago. That may be the only thing that really helps them while they're sitting there, waiting their turn for an acute service.

We have nurses in the Vernon emergency department, who on June 24 wrote me a letter saying: "We cannot cope with the workload here. We have unsafe work conditions. Our emergency is in crisis."

We have, in the last two years, a government that has not added a single penny to utilization -- that part of the health care budget that is used for the care of the aging population and the growing population. For the number of people who have aged in this province and the number of people who have come to this province, we've had a $75 million underfunding from utilization alone in '97 and an $88 million underfunding in 1998. Incidentally, we also have the oldest population in the entire country, and therefore in B.C. we look after people with more health care problems, because in our society the increased incidence of health care problems occurs with increasing age.

We also have the misconceptions that this minister has put forward during her tenure -- that we have the highest health care spending in Canada. We've seen that in glossy full-page ads in both the Province and Sun newspapers. I've looked at those statistics, and again, statistics are always something everyone can manipulate. However, from other looks at those statistics, we are in fact third in per-capita

[ Page 10187 ]

We have a minister who blames hospitals and physicians for problems with increasing health care costs, despite the fact that in 1991 hospitals received revenue of 18 percent from the B.C. government and in 1996-97 received 15 percent, a decrease in the overall general amount. The concomitant figure for physicians was 9 percent in '91 and 7.6 percent in 1996-97.

We have a number of very serious problems in health care. A lot of these problems, I feel, can be put right back to 1991 and the inception of Closer to Home. The concept of regionalization has gone wrong because it has been politicized; it has gone wrong because the government has encouraged competition as opposed to cooperation between health care workers. I consider that to be absolutely the wrong direction. We have a government that has forgotten about patients. We have forgotten in this province that the service we're supposed to provide is to people. I have, and every member of this entire House has, probably hundreds of letters and phone calls that have come in in the last year about serious problems that people have had in the health care system in their own town, their own city, and when they have gone to try and get services around the province for cancer, joint replacement or cardiac surgery.

[11:45]

S. Hawkins: I want to get back to Inge Schamborzki for a moment, because it's just come to my attention, and perhaps the minister can confirm it for me. . . . I understand, and the minister can tell me if it's true, that this CEO still has property of the North Shore health board. She has a personal computer and fax at home till the end of her severance package. Can the minister confirm that?

Hon. P. Priddy: I can't confirm that currently. I will check that out. It is not an unusual. . . . In general, in other businesses, when someone has been severed, they have access to a fax and so on in terms of job search, which is not uncommon in other businesses. But I've no idea in this case. I'll check.

S. Hawkins: What I would ask the minister, then, is to confirm that. Can she tell me when she'll get that information back to the House? I would like to ask her how much it's costing the North Shore board for her to keep that for at least another year -- because we know she was severed about six months ago. The question I asked previously, about the minister getting back to the health boards and giving them acceptable guidelines on top of the guidelines that they already have for CEO spending. . . . Can she tell us what she is going to tell the health boards or what she told the health boards after the fact, and when she will bring that to the House -- when she will tell us that she has done that?

Hon. P. Priddy: The information on reviewing the HEABC guidelines, which is what the member suggested or requested, and ensuring that the information, if it has not been clear about those guidelines to health authorities -- although I think it may have been -- when we would do that. . . . While I am meeting with all of the health authorities in the fall, I will make a commitment to review those guidelines and get something in writing to all of the health authorities before that time.

I think the other question the member asked was about when we can get back to the House about the computer and fax equipment, whether that individual has it and whether there's any cost to that. We can do that by Monday. I would not be surprised if it's correct, but I don't know that.

G. Abbott: I'd like to return to some of the details around regionalization that we were discussing when the House adjourned last night.

I'll begin today by asking the minister a couple of questions with respect to what might be termed cost-shared arrangements between local authorities -- i.e., regional hospital districts and/or regional health boards -- and the province. The cost-sharing arrangement that's currently in place between the province and local authorities is 60-40, unless it's been changed since the last estimates, and I think it probably has not been. That major capital would involve extended-care facilities, I guess, major hospital renovations and improvements, and that sort of thing. I want to explore this a little bit, because I think that, particularly as the baby-boomer generation gets a little older, we are going to see increasing pressure for more extended-care facilities and so on. I'll leave it for others to explore this point, but I suspect we're already very heavily subscribed, if not oversubscribed, in our existing extended-care facilities. This is an important issue, so I want to get a better understanding of it. There was just a little bit of flexibility with respect to this issue put forward by the minister last year.

When we're talking about major projects, the government. If they're offering their 60 percent share of the capital for a major project, presumably the regional hospital districts continue to make a determination of their willingness to provide a 40 percent local share. How do the regional health boards fit into this equation? This is the question where the minister said she would, to use her words, I think, "take some of these issues into consideration in the future." When the province takes their capital budget for those kinds of facilities and distributes it around the province, to what level will the regional health boards have some control and accountability over where that is spent? In other words, let's say, for example, that the North Okanagan-Columbia-Shuswap regional health board decides that a new extended-care facility is needed in Salmon Arm. What would be the process of that moving ahead? How would the regional health boards be involved? How would the province be involved? How would the regional hospital districts be involved?

Hon. P. Priddy: Just to use the example the member has provided, your district, which might want a long-term care facility or extended-care facility. . . . What would happen is that each year, we put out a call for interest in capital projects.

[ Page 10188 ]

In this case, beginning this year -- and I think it's probably very sound -- Treasury Board also has a responsibility for capital projects, the intent of that being to try and coordinate capital spending across government, as opposed to every ministry doing their own. Our list of projects that have met our criteria and so on will go to the Treasury Board staff who are involved in capital. They have people from each ministry who are now over in that ministry. They review those and send out to the regional hospital district a list of projects that we see as meeting the criteria, and ask the regional hospital district if they're prepared to fund them.

G. Abbott: Just to ensure that I have captured this in essence, as I would understand it, the ministry, to start off the process -- presumably as part of the budget preparation process -- will be submitting a figure for capital projects of this sort to Treasury Board. This would be in the initial phase, even before the call for proposals. Presumably there is some discussion between the ministry and Treasury Board about the acceptability of a certain figure within their budget for capital projects.

Once the ministry has that agreement with Treasury Board and it's incorporated in the budget, there is a call for submissions with respect to capital projects that would be distributed to both the regional hospital districts and the regional health boards. If they, in their wisdom, agree -- and perhaps we can explore that agreement element a little bit more here too -- that, yes, a new facility is needed at Salmon Arm or wherever it may happen to be, they would send a proposal back to the ministry. The ministry would review that proposal in terms of its criteria -- the level of need, etc. -- and then the final stage in this would be Treasury Board approval of the project specifically, as opposed to Treasury Board's initial approval of a global amount for this purpose. Is this correct?

Hon. P. Priddy: Yes, that is correct. If we use the Salmon Arm one, when it goes to Treasury Board, it goes along with a whole lot. You don't go to Treasury Board with every single one; you go with your list. You ask Treasury Board to approve your list. You don't go back and say, "This extended-care," and then go back the next week and say: "This one and this one." You develop your list based on what has been sent forward, and then -- yes, that's correct -- it goes to Treasury Board for approval project by project.

G. Abbott: Just in terms of clarifying the roles of RHD and the RHB, to use those abbreviations. . . . I presume from the government's and the province's perspective that, before a major capital project is approved in Salmon Arm or anywhere else in British Columbia, the expectation of the province would be that there would be a common agreement and presumably a common resolution that would come forth from both of those boards, which would reflect support for that project. Presumably, in the absence of that -- demands on provincial resources always being greater than what can be fulfilled -- a project simply wouldn't proceed. Is that a fair assumption?

Hon. P. Priddy: The agreement between the regional hospital district and the health authority would have been made before those proposals were submitted. So that's when the agreement about which proposals are important would have been made. The only other remaining piece, then, is to go, after the health authority and the regional health district have said, "Yes, these are our priorities -- Salmon Arm, and Shuswap needs a community health clinic. . . ." Do you need a community health clinic?

Interjection.

Hon. P. Priddy:I thought maybe you'd like a community health clinic.

That agreement is done initially, before it would ever get to the ministry. So by the time it gets to the ministry, those proposals have support from both the hospital district and the health authority. The only sort of contingent part then becomes. . . . Once Treasury Board has approved the list, based on agreement from the regions, then the only other place for agreement is for the regional health district to agree that they can indeed fund their 40 percent share of it. I'm not sure if I've answered your question or not; I tried.

[12:00]

Hon. P. Priddy: There are two pieces to this because I think there are two parts to the member's question that I want to respond to. One is around minor capital, and one is around equipment, and they're actually handled differently. If it is around minor capital. . . . You're renovating, you're building a garage for the ambulance service or whatever -- that would be minor capital. That would be handled in exactly the same way as the major capital we've just discussed.

When it comes to equipment, that is done on a somewhat less formal basis. So you're replacing an X-ray machine or. . . . In point of fact, there have been a number of calls. . . . I just noticed, as I signed them off, that a number of patient call systems have been replaced at hospitals recently. That's the sort of thing we would approve. They would indicate that they want it. We would approve our 60 percent, and then it's up to the health authority. They might get it from the regional health district; they might get it from their own. . . . Most hospitals have a foundation; they might get it out of the foundation. They might take it from another place in their budget. So that's a bit less formal. But minor capital in terms of building and renovations is handled the same as major capital.

[ Page 10189 ]

". . .I am publicly committed. . .to this, to a community process for appointment in the next round of appointments. I'm already receiving very interesting, creative, innovative and unique ideas for a community process for reappointment or new appointments to begin in the fiscal year of 1999-2000. I also don't expect that the community process for nomination will be the same across the province. I really do hope that I can get input from every area of the province on how that community nomination process should occur, beginning on April 1 of '99."

Hon. P. Priddy: May I ask leave to make an introduction?

Leave granted.

Hon. P. Priddy: I notice in the gallery Gerry Della Mattia, who I have known for a very long time. I assume he is here on college business. His daughter Marie worked with me for the first three and a half years of my time in Women's Equality. I know he's very glad to welcome them home from Dubai, along with his beautiful granddaughter Emily. I would ask the House to make him welcome.

In response to the member's question, we did talk a bit about the appointment process yesterday afternoon or evening. Just let me ask for some clarification. If the member is asking whether we have acted on suggestions people have made about how the appointment process should be made. . . . Do I have the question correct? That's what I thought. I've checked with staff. I'm not aware of particular submissions, although there may be, or that we went out and recruited around the how-to. . . . But when we sent the eligibility criteria and guidelines out to the health authorities, they made a number of comments to us about the way they thought they could go about it to reach the greatest number of people. In some of the comments we've heard about how you can be more creative in your community about getting people involved, people have talked about the more traditional things, like advertising in your local paper. As I said yesterday, that may reach some people, but a lot of people may not read their local paper. People have also talked about using cable television and radio stations that are listened to by people with a particular first language -- Punjabi or Chinese radio stations. That's going the extra step beyond just the ad in the local paper.

I know that some health authorities have made community presentations on. . . . As they've been doing their focus groups, they've made community presentations about what it's like to be a health authority member and encouraged people to actually think about whether they'd like to do so. I think the primary message that health authorities have been sending and are acting on is that you can't just take this one step of putting an ad in the paper that says: "And members, please come forward." You have to actually do active outreach, so that we have this range of abilities and skills.

Some have talked to, for instance, chartered accountant associations to ask: are there people in this community who have a CA background, who'd be interested in being on the health authority. . . ? It's really about a much more active outreach.

G. Abbott: I was able to listen to most of the discussion last night around this issue, and I just want to complement that discussion that's already taken place. My concern here is that I think that to date there has been -- I want to use a fair term here -- quite a lot of ad hockery in the way we have pursued the appointment process. I'm not saying that to diminish the talents of the people who have been appointed -- I think that in many cases they have been excellent -- but I think there has been a lot of ad hockery in the way it's been done.

The concern I have had in the past -- not so much now, because the composition of the board has changed to a certain extent in my particular area. . . . There were large geographic regions that were either unrepresented or underrepresented, and that was a particular concern to me. I think that pointed to some of the ad hoc way in which the appointment process was being done. That is why I asked the question about whether the ministry was looking at a more defined, more methodical or somewhat formalized way of ensuring that representation on this important board reflected the composition of the region.

Hon. P. Priddy: By the way, I know that the member is correct. That was previously a very specific and legitimate concern in your health region.

My expectation -- and we will be saying that -- is that when you go to recruit. . . . I mean, sometimes you just might not be able to get X, but my expectation is that if you cover a large geographical region, the health authority has the responsibility to do that outreach in each of those communities in the region -- not just the largest one. I don't know if you go to all the communities in the region, but you don't just do the largest one. You go to the smaller communities. You make sure that the ads are in all of those small community newspapers, as well, even if they only come out once every two weeks, or whatever that is, and there's also responsibility to cover the geographic areas.

There will still be a bit of. . . . I'm not sure it's ad hockery; I'm not sure it's not, either. They may do it a bit differently. If you don't have a weekly newspaper, people might choose to use cable. If you don't receive cable, you might put up posters in libraries or the general store -- places that you think people might frequent more. In that respect, each region will do it a bit differently, based on the needs in that region; but I think it is more defined in terms of the expectations.

Some boards have done that all along. My board has always put ads in the newspaper, they've had a screening committee, and I think they've always managed quite successfully. But I also appreciate that I'm in an urban area where it's easier to do that. I think the expectations about how health authorities are to go about that is more defined. It doesn't say you must do this, this and this, but they must explain to me the steps that they have taken in order to do that recruitment, and I must be satisfied that those steps are broad enough to have reached people.

G. Abbott: I know from previous discussions on this matter that the province, in the new permutation of regionalization, is reluctant to go to boards that are comprised of

[ Page 10190 ]

The one question I still have in my mind is: if, for whatever reason, Sicamous or Sorrento or Armstrong decided that the best way to select their representative or the best way to select a representative from their area was to do it by some sort of electoral process -- a public meeting where someone was elected, a straw poll or, if they chose, a ballot in conjunction with a municipal election -- would that be an alternative that would be outright rejected by the ministry, or would it be studied for its merits?

Hon. P. Priddy: If in Armstrong or Enderby someone chose, as in your first scenario, to do that through a town hall meeting, then that name would come forward. That's fine. That name would come forward, however, in the same way that all other names come forward, and they would then need to be measured against the template to ensure that the skills and criteria which we spoke of yesterday are also in place. Their name would come forward in the same kind of way that any other name would come forward. People could put it forward that way.

[12:15]

I am, though, interested in the question of whether the process of appointment will be a satisfactory one in the long term, for the evolution of these boards. I understand that there is some difficulty, at least in the experience of the boards that I know, in finding suitable people, persuading them to take on a board position and in fact staying on as board members. It's a significant challenge to find the people to do that under the current system. I don't know whether that would be different in an elected system or not, but I think perhaps it would be. My sense is that when people are elected to a board, they have a clear sense of who they're accountable to. As a consequence of that, I think that while the accountability may not always be a comfortable process -- in fact, at times it can be a downright uncomfortable process -- it still gives them a clear sense of who they're responsible to, and that, presumably, is their electors.

We've got two sides to this thing. One is the method of engagement -- whether it's elected or appointed or boards comprised of some mix. The other side of the coin is the accountability question. When people are appointed, I'm sure that as they serve they have some doubts about to whom they are accountable: are they accountable to the province that appointed them, or are they accountable to the communities which they came from? I'll be interested in what the minister's response is. Who are they responsible to? Perhaps they're responsible to both. I would think that would make it difficult to function in that sense, because one would never really have a clear sense of who one is accountable to. Even under the old hospital board system, people tended to. . . . On the Shuswap Lake hospital board, there would be a representative from Sicamous. They'd be elected at a public meeting, and they'd be clearly responsible for the interests of Sicamous, Salmon Arm, Sorrento, and so on, would be the same. I'm wondering -- in the longer term, as this evolves -- whether that accountability issue is also going to be a difficulty in maintaining continuity and enthusiasm on those boards.

Hon. P. Priddy: It is an interesting discussion. I think the points the member raises are good questions and good points for discussion. In terms of who the health authorities are accountable to, they're certainly accountable to their communities. There's no question about that. At least, if I use my own health authority as an example, every single one of those health authority members gets calls at home from the public, who are very clear about who they can call when they have an issue or something that needs to be addressed. As well, they are accountable to the Minister of Health. That's correct. I've thought back and forth significantly about the issue of. . . . You know, you don't want to take this much further, this sort of elected versus appointed. . . .

When I heard the quite legitimate comments from the opposition critic last night, as well as some of the things the auditor general mentioned -- that you need people on this board who have some legal experience, some accounting experience, etc. -- the list that people have recommended. . . . With the greatest respect to all of us who managed to be elected for whatever reasons from our communities -- school board, municipally or provincially -- when you do that, then there is no way of ensuring that you have any kind of balance of skills. You're in a very different kind of arena and, I would suggest, get elected sometimes for very different reasons. It's a trade-off or a balancing act in some ways, but I do believe that people see themselves as responsible to the community. From my experience, the community calls them a lot, so they certainly see them as being accountable to them.

G. Abbott: Let me cite one example of where the existing processes have tended to create frustrations. There is an unincorporated community in the West Shuswap called Sorrento. It's a substantial size in terms of population -- probably about 5,000 if one takes in that area. I don't believe that to date they have had a representative on the regional health board. In any event, there is a very active group there that is promoting the idea of a community clinic. They've had some frustration in terms of feeling that their voices are being heard on the board. In fact, I think the board is now trying to respond. I spoke to the CEO recently, and they are taking responsible steps to try to respond to their request from there.

I don't want to talk about that specifically. I want to raise it as an example of where the non-geographic basis for appointments tends to create problems in terms of good, productive and efficient communication between the boards and community groups and people in communities -- I hate to use the term "ad hockery" again -- because of the way the geographic distribution on the boards is. Sometimes there may be areas that don't have the representation that they feel -- and they undoubtedly really do -- they need. I'll cite that as an example, and again ask the minister: is there some better way that we can ensure that across a region -- and it may be fairly broad -- those kinds of situations don't occur?

Hon. P. Priddy: Geographic representation is indeed one of the criteria that health authorities are to look at in terms of

[ Page 10191 ]

What I've seen health authorities do, and what I think they probably should do, is then set up some kind of subcommittee or representational committee in the same way we do, to make sure that the voices of people with disabilities are at the table -- or the voices of whoever may not actually be at the table -- whose advice people need. They would set up some kind of formal vehicle to ensure that people who didn't actually have a person on the board nevertheless had a formal liaison with the board.

G. Abbott: Does the minister have any suggestions as to what form that might take? Using the Sorrento example again, if they want to have some sense that their voices can be heard on the board despite not having a board member there directly, what kind of form might that take -- a community advisory group? What kind of thing would the minister have in mind?

Hon. P. Priddy: I think two things, hon. member. I said a subcommittee, but some people call them community advisory committees. It's one of the ways, because it formalizes that. It's not just: "Gosh, come and see us if you think you've got a problem." It becomes a formal mechanism that therefore must be used. The other way it has been done by some health authorities is to move their meetings around to be able to hear from particular communities, and I realize that in really, really large and remote regions this is not always possible.

G. Abbott: My final question, for now at least. I know that there has been some frustration where I come from in terms of finding aboriginal representation to sit on the regional health board. Has that been the case with other regional health boards? I think when we pursued this in the past, the policy was going to be to include at least one first nations representative, and they might be the fifteenth or sixteenth member of a board. Have there been those sorts of frustrations elsewhere in the province with respect to securing ongoing first nations representation on health boards?

Hon. P. Priddy: There have been in some places, and in some places there have not, in the same way there have been struggles with other folks that you might want to have there. There are two reasons for that, hon. member -- and I think that that is improving. I think one reason is that historically we don't have a long history of making sure that aboriginal people have a voice at the table, so in some ways it's about the health authority being able to build that sense of trust that that will be a voice that's heard at the table and not just someone who's there so we can say: "Gosh, they're there."

Secondly, at least around negotiations, there have certainly been some issues for some aboriginal people about whether that's a table they actually want to be at. So some areas of the province have had that frustration, and some have been able to have ongoing aboriginal representation without any difficulty at all.

S. Hawkins: What I've been hearing in the last little while is that there's accountability that flows both ways: to the ministry and to the community. Perhaps it's more helpful to talk about what the boards are accountable for rather than to. I want to know from the minister. . . . I know they've developed the accountability framework, which she says the boards have in draft form now or are in the process of reviewing. Can the minister tell us what the health authorities are accountable to their communities for? And is that in the draft that's going to them?

Hon. P. Priddy: I'm just finding another piece to read from.

Health authorities have a responsibility to their communities to ensure that they have gone out into their communities -- I'll give you an example in a moment -- in order to hear from the community what they see the health needs as being. The example I would use is in my own community. I know that my health authority has done focus groups in the community with elders, aboriginal people, people with disabilities, gay and lesbian people, youth and particular geographic communities that have particular needs within our larger health authority. They have a responsibility to go out and talk to people about what they see the specific needs as being -- not to determine that sitting at a health authority table. That's part of the accountability they have to their community.

"They have an accountability to the community to establish a plan for health services," as I guess I said, "based on identified needs." They have to be able to say to me how they've identified those needs, what they've done to get that kind of information. They have a responsibility to the community to develop policies and standards that are consistent with the ministry's, so that the community knows that they may not be getting exactly the same services, but that they're getting the same quality, with the same policies and standards of care attached to it, that are consistent with what we expect in the province.

"They have a responsibility to the community to allocate funding for health programs that deliver very specific health services." Some may deliver services, for instance, for hospice societies; they have a responsibility for very specific services. The health authority has a responsibility to the community to demonstrate that they are a vigorous, knowledgable and accountable employer -- I guess that's the best way to describe that -- for all of those amalgamated agencies and staff that are now in the regions.

I'll just do one more and then perhaps stop. "They are accountable to the community to ensure that all of the services that are identified are then delivered, either through contract-for-service or through work with non-profit organizations in the community and to make sure that those services are delivered where people need them."

S. Hawkins: In that accountability framework -- I think the minister is reading from some of that -- is there a model for how the accountability flows to the community and how the health authorities are accountable for those kinds of services that the minister described? Is there a model -- a flow chart, if you will -- that the minister has in that draft that we can have a look at?

[12:30]

[E. Gillespie in the chair.]

Hon. P. Priddy: It is not in the accountability document, but there is indeed a flow chart in the health services plan that

[ Page 10192 ]

S. Hawkins: Is that part of the document that the minister is going to make public in the House?

Hon. P. Priddy: It's actually part of a different document called "Health Services Planning Guidelines," which won't be ready until fall. But certainly the flow chart part is ready, and you can have that.

S. Hawkins: Thank you. We will expect that, hopefully, next week.

We heard the minister tell us how in her community the health authorities have gone about trying to touch people in the community and identify health care needs -- or what the community feels are health care needs -- through focus groups, and certainly we heard from other communities how they do it through community advisory groups. Is there a model that the ministry is helping the health authorities with, or are they developing these on their own? Who is reviewing these and deciding that these are the ways that the health authorities should go about identifying health needs in the community?

Hon. P. Priddy: I don't think there's a model that says that every community has to do it the same way. Doing focus groups, if you're in Bulkley Valley-Stikine, may not be what's possible. You might have to do surveys or phone. . . . It has to happen in different ways. There's nothing that says you must do X. All of the ways in which health authorities are working to do that are collected through HABC, the Health Authorities of British Columbia. They are making sure that that information is distributed back to all health authorities, so that people don't have to rediscover what someone else has already discovered is a workable process.

S. Hawkins: If I could just raise a bit of a technical problem. . . . I'm having trouble hearing the minister, and it may be because she is sort of straddling two desks. I don't know which mike is on and which one she's speaking into. I don't mind if we go face to face across the way, either, if that's. . . . I checked with my colleague here, and I think I'm not the only one having a problem hearing the minister today. I don't know if Hansard can turn on both mikes or whatever -- no? -- or if we just make it so that we can get answers from the minister that we can hear.

I'm going to leave that area for a minute. We were talking about computers yesterday, and I have quite a concern with Y2K compliance, with respect to computerization. We were talking about computers, and I wanted to know what the ministry has done to prepare for the year 2000. We know that, gosh, health care and hospitals rely heavily on computerization these days. Is there a committee or organization responsible for or looking into the millennium bug, as it's known -- or Y2K compliance -- and looking into its impact on health care equipment and facilities in B.C.?

Hon. P. Priddy: I was reminded differently than yesterday that I have to sit in my own seat, which makes it difficult for gathering staff around. If this helps. . . .

I do have staff coming in, but let me begin anyway. In terms of the year 2000. . . . Changeover is such a small term for such a large issue. There are a number of things that have happened, and I can provide you with more specifics. We have contacted all of the manufacturers of equipment that is used by hospitals and health care facilities -- pacemakers, radiology machines, MRI machines, whatever else there might be -- to ask them: "Will their equipment have to be worked on in order to make that transformation?" Some of the new equipment, in point of fact, will be fine and doesn't need that kind of transformation.

I was going to try and do this on my own, but this is probably clearer for you. We initiated the year 2000 project in June of '96 and implemented its plan at that time to deal with the year 2000 problem by July of '97 -- which meant the plan was in place. The critical computer systems and business applications have all been identified. The critical systems internal to us will all be compliant by September of '98.

We've been working with the British Columbia Health Association, the British Columbia Health Care Risk Management Society and health authority staff with responsibility for the year 2000 to establish an information, coordination and sharing service in order to permit health authorities to ensure that their organizations are year 2000-compliant.

The deputy minister has recently written to all the CEOs of the health authorities to both update them on our activity and advise them of our requirements of them regarding this issue. The health authorities are to develop a plan, quite a specific plan, to deal with the year 2000. They must undertake an inventory compliance assessment and advise the ministry of the outcome by this summer. The ministry is also coordinating the provincial and national clearinghouse of year 2000 information for the health care sector.

S. Hawkins: What problems have been identified so far?

Hon. P. Priddy: The biggest challenge we have identified is ensuring that all the suppliers of equipment, particularly around critical medical chips, are letting their customers or buyers, which are the hospitals and health care facilities, know the exact state of their equipment and know what has to be done before the year 2000. We knew that was going to be a challenge unless it was taken on in a more systemic way. For instance, we've brought all those suppliers together. General Electric was in a week or two ago, talking with all our health authorities about all their equipment. I think the biggest challenge, really, is the coordinating of all that information to ensure that everybody is working with the same information at the same time and not having to one-off it.

S. Hawkins: I heard the minister say there was a group that had been struck to look at this within the ministry and that the information, which was going to be collected from all the health authorities, had to be in this summer. For the information that's been collected already within the ministry -- because it sounds like that review has been done -- can the minister tell us what the cost is to date that they've assessed for replacing equipment or chips? Do they have any idea of what the cost overall will be to all the health care system, with respect to the superbug?

Hon. P. Priddy: With respect to the health authority systems, we don't have that cost estimation yet. We're waiting for some more information to come in. In terms of ensuring that our own systems -- the Ministry of Health data management that we're responsible for -- are year 2000-compliant, it is about $10.8 million in total over four years.

S. Hawkins: This is a very, very serious problem, and I understand that the problem goes beyond computers, where

[ Page 10193 ]

Hon. P. Priddy: That is the reason for asking the health authorities to do that assessment of what equipment they already have. That is the only way we will be able to make that estimation. We know that there will be some equipment that is hard-coded that might need to be replaced. I think there has been a fair bit of discussion that it will all need to be replaced; I think that is an assessment we will make as we go along. It's certainly the position of the suppliers that it all needs to be replaced. There certainly is some equipment, like heart defibrillators, that may be hard-coded, where the whole piece needs to be replaced. Until we have that assessment in and know what each health authority has, we're not able to estimate the cost.

S. Hawkins: Can the minister tell us who will be responsible for the costs?

Hon. P. Priddy: In the final analysis, all of the costs in the health care system are borne by the Ministry of Health budget.

S. Hawkins: At the same time the minister is doing this, have there been any studies on risk assessment for equipment in hospitals? I know that she says the health authorities are doing that. I'm concerned, because we are a year and a half away from the year 2000. I'm not that computer-literate, but when I read the stories in the paper about people who are starting now, it seems to me that we're starting to look into this a little late.

If it were just fax machines that were affected, that would be a huge concern to me. But when we're looking at pediatric monitors, ventilators in ICUs, defibrillators and monitors of those kind, I think we have to be very cognizant of the fact that we are trying to ensure patient safety once we hit the stroke of midnight in the year 2000. We're already starting to hear people saying they're not going to make New Year's Eve plans to fly, because they're very concerned about air traffic equipment and computer equipment in planes going down. The same thing, I think, applies in the hospital and health care sector. It's a huge concern.

I'm wondering what risk assessment studies have been performed. What are the deadlines for the health authorities to report back, so that we're right on time and are making sure that patient care and safety are at the top of our concern when we hit that stroke of midnight in the year 2000?

[12:45]

S. Hawkins: They've sent it out. What's come back? What do we know from the information that has been gathered so far?

Hon. P. Priddy: I think, as I mentioned earlier, that not all the information is received yet from the health authorities. What they are doing is using those risk management models or protocols sent out by the risk management society. They've now received that twice -- once from the risk management society and once with the letter from the deputy minister, saying: "We need your plan." I will not be able to tell you all of the risks that they have identified until all of those are in.

S. Hawkins: Will the minister commit to keeping this member updated on what's happening? I get concerns about this from different groups that are wondering whether this government or this ministry is actually on top of the year 2000 bug. Will the minister commit to doing that?

Hon. P. Priddy: Yes, I will.

S. Hawkins: The minister says they've been talking to manufacturers, but I don't know if that's enough. I wonder if the ministry has looked at third-party testing and whether the ministry has tested equipment themselves by setting the clock forward and measuring the effects. Is there any of that kind of testing going on within the ministry?

Hon. P. Priddy: The Ministry of Health itself is not doing that kind of testing; we don't have the technology or the skills to do that. The equipment is being tested in partnership. The vendors or the suppliers of the equipment are testing it in concert with the biomedical people who are in those health care facilities.

S. Hawkins: Just to compound the problem, apparently the year 2000 is also a leap year. I understand that will cause problems apart from the year 2000-compliancy problems. Is the ministry in the process of assessing that?

Hon. P. Priddy: Because we are going from a two-digit system to a four-digit system, we don't expect that the leap year will create any additional difficulties. We've had lots of leap years, and they have not been an issue for us. I think the real issue is going from the two-digit to the four-digit numbers.

S. Hawkins: I wonder what the minister bases her assessment of that on, because I understand that there could be a problem with it being a leap year. Has the minister gotten advice on that, or is that just something the ministry thinks won't be a problem?

Hon. P. Priddy: If the member has information that it creates a problem, I or my staff would be grateful to hear that. The technical advice that we have at this stage is that the leap year will not create a problem.

S. Hawkins: I take the opportunity to read a lot of magazines when I'm flying around, doing my commutes, and I noticed that in one of the computer magazines I read. If I can find it on my flight home, I will share that article with you. The leap year was one thing that they had flagged. We would hope that that advice was available to the ministry as well.

[ Page 10194 ]

Motion approved.

The House resumed; E. Walsh in the chair.

Committee of Supply, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. P. Priddy moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 12:54 p.m.

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