1994 Legislative Session: 3rd Session, 35th Parliament
HANSARD
The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.
(Hansard)
FRIDAY, APRIL 15, 1994
Morning Sitting
Volume 14, Number 6
[ Page 10019 ]
The House met at 10:07 a.m.
Clerk of the House: Pursuant to standing orders, the House is advised of the unavoidable absence of the Speaker.
[D. Lovick in the chair.]
Prayers.
R. Kasper: Visiting with us in the gallery today are Helga and Pearcy Koethe from the Sooke community, where I reside. They are here as my guests. I'd like to House to make them welcome.
A. Warnke: In the gallery today is a very good friend of mine from Tsawwassen, Mr. Don Manson. He is obviously observing what is going on in these precincts. Will you please make him welcome.
PROMOTING BIODIVERSITY IN BRITISH COLUMBIA
L. Krog: April 10 to 16 is Wildlife Week, so this topic seems entirely appropriate for a private member's statement today.
When I was articled to a law firm many years ago, one thing I was taught very early on was: if you had a question, don't go and ask the senior lawyer in the firm; go and look at the statutes first. Following along with that, I took the opportunity yesterday to go to the library and look up "biodiversity" just to see what definition had been given to it. I had a good idea what it meant. It's not in the dictionary. The Oxford English dictionary, 1989, second edition -- probably the best dictionary in the world -- has all sorts of bio-whatnots, but it doesn't have biodiversity yet. I had to resort to looking up "bio," which basically refers to organic life or meaning of life, or a course or way of living. Then I had to look up "diversity," which was the condition or quality of being diverse, different or varied.
What does that tell us about biodiversity and about promoting biodiversity in British Columbia? It tells us that the attitude of all of us toward the environment in which we live and the species we share the planet with is changing very rapidly. Nowhere in this country has biodiversity been better recognized or appreciated than in British Columbia. The Minister of Environment, Lands and Parks, the Hon. Moe Sihota, announced the theme earlier this week for National Wildlife Week. He said: "Biodiversity works for wildlife; you can too." I suppose what the minister is issuing is a clarion call to all British Columbians to take part in protecting biodiversity and support projects, people and organizations who promote biodiversity, because if there's anything that's clear, we share in this province most of the major ecosystems in this country. British Columbia is unique within Canada in that sense. We're more than the bare rocks and small trees of Newfoundland. We have those too, and we have our own prairies in the Cariboo; we have significant mountain ranges; we have incredible wildlife on the coast and in my constituency as well.
During Wildlife Week, some 15,000 educational kits were produced and sent out by the Canadian Wildlife Federation to elementary schools throughout the province. What I know -- and I suspect most members know from speaking to school groups in their constituencies -- is that the children of this province are way ahead of us. They probably know instinctively what biodiversity means and know more about it than I do. That's because they are taking care of and are concerned about the environment in which they live. They know it's their future, and they know it's important.
British Columbia is the most biologically diverse area in Canada. It has some 143 mammal species, 454 bird species and 450 fish species. In addition, it's home to three-quarters of the stone sheep, one-quarter of the world's grizzlies and two-thirds of all mountain goats and California bighorn sheep. That means we have been given a special benefit in this province; that also means we have been given a special responsibility.
I believe this government has been strong in meeting that responsibility on behalf of the people of British Columbia. A week ago today I had the pleasure and privilege of unveiling a plaque in my constituency with Moe Sihota, the hon. Minister of Environment. The plaque marks the creation of the Parksville-Qualicum Beach wildlife management area. It recognizes, as its jewel, the Parksville Flats that I worked so hard for, and recognizes the value of the brant geese that use that as a stop-off place every year, as they have done for thousands of years. What we also recognize by the unveiling of that cairn was the hard and dedicated work of many groups within the community: Ken and Dawn Ryan, Maureen Ipsen, the Society for the Preservation of the Englishman River Estuary, the Friends of the Parksville Flats, Ducks Unlimited, Parks Canada and B.C. Parks. All those groups and people worked so hard to protect a little biodiversity in their own back yard.
I'm very pleased to say that over 70 municipalities in this province, not just Parksville, have proclaimed National Wildlife Week. These communities are recognizing their responsibilities. The provincial government has played a key role this year by increasing fees for angling licences, which politically may be a little hard for some to swallow. We will raise an additional $2 million a year for conservation projects to improve fish and wildlife habitat. That's good government; it's leadership. I can tell you that the fish and game organizations in my constituency very much appreciate that leadership.
In Masset, in the Queen Charlottes, we're restoring critical bird habitat with $168,000 of the habitat conservation fund -- and there is another $200,000 in services. There is support for the Brant Festival, which brings thousands of people to Parksville for that glorious weekend in the year when we celebrate not only the cultural and artistic life of those communities, be it in carving or painting, but also the value of the wildlife that is the theme and source of most of the art there.
In the Kitlope, we have banned grizzly bear hunting because of concern about this province's bear population. The government is taking steps to assess the grizzly bear population and trying to create a strategy to ensure their survival. I guess that if we're learning anything about biodiversity and wildlife, it is that we have to respect those we share the planet with. The minute we start to discriminate in terms of the value of life.... Whether it be the tiniest insect in the forest floor -- which, we are now coming to appreciate, plays a vital role in forest renewal -- or the people who go into the woods to harvest the trees, everybody is important in that great scheme.
[10:15]
If we as a government fund projects ensuring that people understand and appreciate, that's good for all of us. It will help create an environment that is sustainable. It will help
[ Page 10020 ]
create and maintain biodiversity within the province. This year alone the government is providing $530,000 to complete fisheries educational exhibits in Duncan, in the riding of the member for Malahat-Juan de Fuca. That centre will open this fall. It's projected to attract 47,000 visitors a year, who will have an opportunity to enhance their knowledge of wildlife and the fishery.
The Forest Practices Code will be another vehicle for this government to ensure that diversity in the forest is recognized.
I see my time is up, hon. Speaker. I'll take my seat and wait for the response.
L. Reid: I too would recognize the comments of the hon. member. It is a very significant subject for discussion today in order that the population not just in British Columbia, not just in Canada, but the world over have some understanding of biodiversity, because only with understanding will come some respect and appreciation.
My comments this morning will focus specifically on the need for some understanding of biotechnology, because I believe the application of new biotechnologies will enable us to enhance our understanding of biodiversity and allow us to maintain the environment as we know it. There is certainly tremendous work underway in the areas of biotechnology and envirotechnology. Those areas complement specifically what the hon. member has said. They also allow us to create working opportunities and enhance research and development in this province. But it cannot just be provincial. I am very proud of the initiatives currently underway in British Columbia, and I have spent a great deal of time saying: why not British Columbia as a world leader in envirotechnology and biotechnology? However, the base must be broader; we must look beyond British Columbia. We must look to what the rest of Canada is doing and what is happening in different parts of the world.
There are a number of examples. The B.C. Biotechnology Alliance puts out a facts update, talking about new developments in the field. There are some very fine examples of new technology coming to bear positively on our understanding of the environment and our ability to ask the environment to generate more foodstuffs and more working opportunities for us. I will make particular reference to one example: a research and development firm taking a look at improving the ability of barley to regenerate much more quickly in terms of the grain industry. Certainly that has a tremendous bearing on Canada's prairie provinces. What they discovered was that the method yielded more than 500 healthy, genetically engineered plants. They were able to overcome some issues about the sturdiness of the stock and the ability of that plant to regenerate. They were able to put something back into the system, to improve it, to create more jobs as a result, and certainly to provide more food as a result.
That is their goal, and has to be the goal of an expanded view of biodiversity. We have to go beyond just looking at and valuing what we have. We have to go to the next plane, which is to preserve, protect and enhance what we have. We must be incredibly committed to that stage.
All of this comes back to respect, and the hon. member talked about respect for the environment. The next logical step is respect for intellectual property. We can enhance and encourage people working in the field of biotechnology and as parliamentarians not stand in their way. We will do all we can to encourage research and development in order to ensure that some of the obstacles are taken away so that we can look at new breakthroughs in medicine and environmental technology, which ties in very tightly to the hon. member's statement. I don't believe that you can have biodiversity without biotechnology. There has to be some mechanism in place to protect what we value as part of the environment.
L. Krog: I want to assure the member for Richmond East that the provincial government is looking beyond its borders. Representatives from the provinces and the federal government are drafting a biodiversity strategy which recommends action to meet the United Nations biodiversity convention. B.C. will then follow up with its own strategy. A report has recently been received entitled "Biodiversity in British Columbia," and I want to assure the member that this government pays heed to her call this morning.
What does give me concern are the remarks made last year in this Legislature by the hon. member for North Vancouver-Seymour on June 23, 1993, and I quote from Hansard: "In the Liberal Party, we actually believe that you can mine in parks in a responsible manner." Those kinds of comments from the opposition give me great concern as a British Columbian. If we are going to talk about using our parks for anything other than their recreational value and for values other than preserving biodiversity, then we have very different views of the importance of parks.
I can't be too harsh with the opposition this morning, and I think I should take a second or two to reflect upon this Legislature and how we represent incredible biodiversity. Within this Legislature we have the government, the New Democratic Party, and the Liberal opposition. Then we have not only the old Socreds and the new Socreds -- or what I refer to as the orthodox Socreds, who still say Grace before their meals -- but we also have the reformed Socreds, who still wear good and finely pressed suits, and the Progressive Democratic Alliance. And to wrap it all up, we have a caucus of one, which can meet very quickly, in the hon. member for West Vancouver-Garibaldi. So I want to assure British Columbians that biodiversity is not only alive and well outside the Legislature, it is alive and well inside the Legislature.
VOLUNTEERS -- THE HEART OF THE COMMUNITY
V. Anderson: April 17 to 23 is set as Volunteer Recognition Week, yet volunteers need to be recognized every day and every week, because they provide the social resource for our community vitality. Their number is legion, and needs to be taken into account and recognized on a regular basis. Volunteers provide services to others and maintain all of our community services without any financial return. All of us depend on volunteers in our everyday life, often without recognizing our own dependence. Today I'd like to thank these volunteers -- past, present and future -- for without them our lives, individually and collectively, would be much less than they are now. Volunteers support people in living and growing in their interpersonal relationships. Volunteers are people who care.
There are millions of examples, but let me share some from my own personal life. There was Miss Millership, who, when I was five years old in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, loved us in the mission band of our United Church, shared her belief in us and even let us play with her talking parrot. There was Rusty Govenlook, who coached our hockey team in Nipawin, Saskatchewan. He spent hours upon hours patiently working with a bunch of carefree kids, out of whom he was to make a credible team and some internationally famed players. There was a store owner and
[ Page 10021 ]
manager, George Botterill, who before work every morning met us on the running track to help us become runners in the race of life. Morning after morning, rain or shine, he was there to share his love for us with his skills and abilities. There were Jean and Vic Sangwine, who shared their home with the youth group, and who even trusted us enough to go out and leave us in charge of the home without them around. There were Reta Grajczyk, Gerald Baldwin and Mike Zbeetnoff, teachers in our high school who volunteered their time after working hours to help us become helpful, caring and capable adults. There was George Kraeling, who was prepared to help a young lad learn to play the cornet, even though that lad -- me -- had no ear for music. It wasn't just music he was concerned about; he was concerned about the persons with whom he could spend some helpful time. There were hundreds of persons who volunteered, and by so doing benefited my own personal life. I can never repay them -- nor do they want repayment. I can say thanks, though: thank you.
I can also do what they did: I can volunteer. Indeed, everyone can volunteer, for we all have gifts that we can share with other people. The volunteers with whom I work in the Vancouver Food Bank unpacked and repacked the grocery parcels that were brought in -- day after day and week after week, unknown and unsung -- in order that children might have food on the table, seniors might not go hungry and the undernourished might find new strength and encouragement. Many seniors are like Pam Hall in Vancouver, who for 25 years has delivered Meals on Wheels to shut-ins, providing them with the only good, warm, nutritious meal they may get in a day. And not only that; they take the time to visit with them, to meet their more personal needs and, if needed on occasion, to call in assistance for them, because they are probably the only person who drops in on them at any time during the week.
As a minister in my regular life, I was fortunate to be part of a fellowship that was totally made up of volunteers: men and women who served their larger community through the friendship, fellowship and faith of their religious community. The men called their group AOTS, As One That Serves. That's what a volunteer is: one that serves without expectation of reward. Yet a great deal of personal inner reward comes to these persons. I remember one Sunday school teacher who, when she was asked how the kids were doing in her class, responded: "I'm not sure what they're learning, but I'm certainly learning a great deal, and I'm a better person because of it."
Volunteers deserve our thanks. We want to credit them on this day and invite others to join them in what is not a vocation but an avocation. It is time that we celebrated their gifts.
G. Brewin: What a pleasure it is for me to rise today to talk a bit about volunteers from a perspective that I have some familiarity with. I want to thank the hon. member for Vancouver-Langara for his comments in introducing the topic of Volunteer Week, which is upcoming. I heartily agree with his point that while we celebrate, acknowledge and honour volunteers during Volunteer Week, it is only a small token of the appreciation we feel for the work volunteers do year-round. That's one very important thing that we need to remember. Volunteers are important, because they, as part of a household, form partnerships in their community. They put back into their community a small part of what the community provides for them and for us.
[10:30]
I can also speak personally about the experiences I had growing up in a volunteering household. My parents volunteered in a very political party way, and my mother was also part of the YWCA in my community. I grew up with a sense of what it was to be a volunteer in the YWCA and to look for no particular recognition, other than knowing that we got a lot back from that in a personal way. I did a lot of adult leadership training through the YWCA, which, again, is an organization in many of our communities that has been in the forefront of working with volunteers.
In my community just this very day I had an opportunity to participate in a couple of things that bring this back home. Downtown business and community people are getting together to clean up Victoria and have a day when we say that how our community looks is very important to us. One of the key elements of how it looks to us today was.... As we approach the Commonwealth Games, with 127 days to go, we hung the first banners for the Games in Victoria. The hon. Minister for Government Services, the Victoria Chamber of Commerce, other volunteers and I were there to celebrate this very important moment.
It is important not just because it's a big event for us, as Victoria gets to host for all of Canada a very special international event, but there will be at least 13,000 volunteers participating in the Commonwealth Games in the greater Victoria area. That is something extraordinary for all of us. We are very proud of the work that they and the Games have done and of the work that all those volunteers will be doing: everything from highfalutin protocol -- greeting major dignitaries from around the world -- to making coffee and making sure that the volunteers, in fact, are having a good experience in the work that they are doing. We are going to see volunteers from this once-in-a-lifetime experience coming into the volunteer community in Victoria with incredible training and experience. For instance, some 5,000 of them will now have CPR training. Having that body of experience within our community is significant and really important.
As we think about volunteers and about our own contribution in that role, we look to others. One of the things we learn about is the benefit to our community and ourselves as we participate as volunteers. Think of all the things that could be done that would be impossible to achieve without the strength of someone coming forward and saying: "Gee, I've got some talent. I'd like to help you do that; I'd like to help serve my community." In so many ways, I think of my own community in James Bay and the volunteers in the community police stations. I think of the community neighbourhood association and the good and important work that those folks have taken on over the years -- not just in the sense of helping others but in the sense of helping their broader community, for many volunteers work on an issue basis. They have a real passion for an issue. I'd like to say thank you to many people in the environmental movement, who, as volunteers, have in a very significant way told the whole community what it means to us to lose some of our environment and how important it is that we as political groups and as communities respond.
As I close, I want to say thank you to the volunteers in my community and to those who will also volunteer in the future. If anyone is interested in volunteering, the volunteer bureau is there to help us all.
V. Anderson: I would also like to thank the member for Victoria-Beacon Hill for her passion and enthusiasm about volunteers.
I've had many opportunities to counsel couples preparing to get married. One of the things I've always said to them is that they are where they are today because so
[ Page 10022 ]
many people in the community have helped them through the years. As they were beginning to form a new family unit, it was one of their responsibilities to find the opportunity to return to the community and become volunteers themselves. So all of us must find an opportunity to volunteer in the community. Whether it's helping the person next door, becoming part of a non-profit society, or working with young people in Cubs, Scouts or recreational groups, there are many opportunities to volunteer.
The hon. member also mentioned the volunteer bureau. One of the things we're able to do in the rural communities, because we know each other so well, is volunteer without a great deal of structure in many cases. It's been the custom in the Prairies, from which I come, that if a person is unfortunate enough to have their barn burn down, and they perhaps end up in the hospital, the community will go out and rebuild that barn. It will provide the labour and materials and everything so it's available when they come home again. In the city it's not so easy to do that because we're strangers to each other. But the volunteer bureau provides an opportunity to let people know that we have a task to be done and, on the other hand, that we are willing to share in it.
As a government, we must be reminded that we need to support the volunteer groups, helping them to have the resources and basic core finances to enable them to operate. They cannot be replaced by any other system, but they can be supported, and they can be enabled to do their job in a much more effective way. We must give thanks to them. As a government, we must remember that all of our planning should not replace or downgrade the volunteers. It should provide them with the resources and opportunities to undertake the programs that can be done collectively, that we'll never be able to do individually or through professionals who are trying to do this as a means of livelihood. I acknowledge that most professionals, as well as doing their professional task, are also out volunteering in their free time in other aspects within the community. Some are using their professional skills, while others are using their volunteer skills, using them as a trade-off, one with the other.
So I would simply like to commend to everybody in the community and to members of the Legislature the importance of each of us taking the opportunity to give thanks by volunteering.
LIFELONG LEARNING: IN THEIR OWN WORDS
J. Beattie: We know that numbers don't always tell the whole story. As overwhelming and important as these facts are -- that low literacy skills cost Canada $10 billion annually; that 650,000 British Columbians may not be able to read their telephone bill; that industrial accidents resulting from poor reading skills are estimated to cost Canadians $1.6 billion annually -- the more significant reality of the world of low literacy skills is in the quaking voice coming from a woman's tear-streaked face as she recounts the anguish and humiliation she has felt all her life. It is in the opportunities and growth that escape a person, disappearing with every cruel gesture and word that her learning disabilities have evoked. It is in the obvious frustration of a young man who yearns to be a productive working member of the community, but, despite his competency at doing janitorial work, is unable to complete his accreditation and hence remains jobless.
Last weekend, staff at Okanagan College afforded me an illuminating experience. Nancy Noble-Hearle and Beth Weick brought together 75 or so individuals from up and down the Okanagan Valley with low literacy skills. Initially, I and other members of the community had been invited to speak to these people about what government and communities do for people with low literacy skills. But in the last week they decided to turn that around: we would sit and hear their voices speak about the life of a person who is unable to speak and read in the same way that the average British Columbian does. Today I'm proud to speak to those people's lives, hopes and concerns.
We shouldn't underestimate the fact that these individuals were able to get up and speak to their community leaders -- community leaders who are, generally speaking, much more confident and skilled and able to play a part in society that these individuals have never been able to do. So I commend them for their willingness to stand up and talk to us.
We mustn't forget that they've had low self-esteem all of their lives. They've been driven to the sidelines. Acknowledging their lack of reading and writing skills at their late age is a first step that requires a great deal of courage, as does standing in front of us to talk about how, over the course of their lives, they were driven to the periphery of the community through no fault of their own.
It starts very early, they told us. It starts with learning problems in elementary school -- kindergarten and grades 1 and 2. Many of these people dropped out of school in grade 5. Their learning problems, some of which were fairly significant, weren't identified, and there was a general lack of sensitivity to their needs. As a result, their self-worth was destroyed. Combined with that was the fact that they were left with no technical skills: they couldn't read and they couldn't write. Because of the terrible experiences many of them had in school, they became marginalized -- hangers-on at the periphery of the social milieu, afraid of losing their jobs and reticent to capitalize on opportunity. Fear of failure haunted them at every step. Even with hands-on ability they were unable to achieve full employment, because they couldn't perform on tests. Despite that, 75 people, most over the age of 40, sat in a room with community leaders, the flower of their need blossoming late in their lives, yearning to come forward to learn to speak and read and be active participants in the community.
I'll never forget one woman who stood up and said that at the age of 45, she left a husband who had berated her during their entire marriage. She left her older, more independent children and, taking her younger son, moved to another community and enrolled in a literacy program that is available in this province. Now she is blossoming into a person with a deep sense of having something to say to her life and to the life of her community.
[10:45]
In the brief minute or so that I have left, I want to say that there is real hope for attitudinal changes, and that is essential. More refined programs are important so all people can have access. We will continue to do that. But there are some very important initiatives that I think are the key message.
The first thing I wish to say is that the primary stages in a person's education, kindergarten to grade 5, are essentially there not only to give them skills but to help build self-worth and social skills and to help a person feel part of a community. I believe that the initiatives of the education system in that direction are essential in order to address the needs of literacy in our province.
[ Page 10023 ]
Secondly, we must acknowledge that work is of value, regardless of what kind of work it is. We should not be laying on individuals the fear that they will be perceived as being less than the professionals in our communities. I believe that the programs in the high schools in our province, where we're going toward more cooperative learning, work-and-learn and things like that, will benefit.
Finally, by moving toward apprenticeships in post-secondary and in the work world, we will salve the injustice that has been perpetrated on people in our province who have low literacy skills.
L. Reid: This issue is of tremendous significance. The hon. member for Okanagan-Penticton has been awarded an incredible opportunity to listen firsthand to individuals who have often had dire experiences in the school system, in terms of bringing to the fore their understanding and sense of optimism and their right to be actively engaged in a learning situation. I stand today as a teacher, and I know that we have not always done the best job in terms of engaging young learners, enhancing their curiosity and applauding their sense of spirit. As I was a teacher of special education in this province for a number of years, I can assure the hon. member that there was an attitude that allowed a lot of what you speak of to go on. There was a sense that these young people were disabled. They weren't disabled, but they definitely learned in a different way. Because we were not in the best position to teach them was not reason enough for us to label an entire segment of the population. I think that issue must be resolved before we can go forward.
At the end of the day, it is about ensuring that people believe in themselves and that they have some energy, passion, hope and optimism in terms of what might come next in their lives. All of us will face adversity, but nothing could be more heartwrenching than to look at someone who is not able to grasp written text, to make sense of their world and to make decisions based on information they can receive in an independent fashion. That is the crux of the issue for me. The member spoke about 650,000 British Columbians. I would suggest that that is the tip of the iceberg. I would suggest that people the world over have been trampled by systems in society and have not been allowed to seek their natural and rightful place.
I very much want to speak about potential. I think that by not recognizing the needs of a lot of these young people, the school system has, in a lot of ways, trampled their self-worth. The self-esteem question that the member speaks of is very significant. All British Columbians -- all people -- have obligations they must meet: mortgages and families. When you add the extra layer of not being able to make sense of written text, it creates tremendous anguish. That is the issue we must respond to in terms of unemployment issues, in terms of training and retraining. The first experience all of us have with written text and the spoken word frames our outlook for all time. That is an issue the school system has not always come to grips with.
Certainly where I was teaching, I said that I wanted the children I taught to be informed decision-makers, to see both sides of a question and to possess tremendous humanity. I fundamentally believed that. As legislators, as parliamentarians, we must go forward and ensure that those kinds of opportunities are in place for all British Columbians.
This is not a party issue or something of which we can simply say there's a four-year plan between elections. This has to be a long-term plan for this province, because it has to be a long-term plan for people. They have to believe that everything will be done to ensure everyone has equal opportunities. It's time for all of us -- not just legislators, but everyone in this province -- to walk the talk and to fundamentally deliver on what we suggest we believe. For me, that is the issue for today.
Nothing is more basic in a civilized society than literacy. We must ensure that everyone can participate in decision-making and in their futures as equally as all other British Columbians. That is not something we've necessarily done a good job of.
I applaud the fact that the hon. member brought these comments to the floor. I again recognize what a rare opportunity he has had. I encourage every single member to spend some time with literacy agencies and organizations across this province. They have by far the most significant task and enormous obligation: to somehow ensure that everyone feels there is some hope and optimism and that they will have some opportunities for the future. I thank the hon. member and look forward to ongoing debate on this topic.
J. Beattie: I'd like to thank the hon. member of the opposition, who obviously shares my concern about the individuals who often are relegated to less than perfect positions in our communities but indeed have the same needs, desires, flesh and blood that we all do. They need caring. They need to be recognized as people, not part of some disadvantaged mass, but individuals who bear children, bring children up and help make our communities better places.
Unfortunately, by denying them equality of opportunity, we burden our society in many other ways. We burden our education community by imposing on teachers the results of poor caring; we take away from their ability to teach. We force the young people to do remedial work when they shouldn't be forced to do that. They shouldn't be forced into a position of having to be separated from their classmates. These things can be avoided.
Our society also has to recognize that equality recognizes ability. When we talk about giving people equal opportunity and equal access, we must take into consideration their potential to participate in a way which they may not always have been able to utilize. In our country and province, that's an important part of the discussion about equal opportunity for people who have learning disabilities -- or who learn differently, as the hon. member states -- or for ethnic groups, women or whatever group has been marginalized in our community.
We have some excellent programs. We have tuition-free literacy programs, cost-shared literacy programs with the federal government and community partners, plain language initiatives that are going on, and the public profile of illiteracy or low literacy skills in our communities. These are very important. We must always place at the forefront the need to be flexible, to make the client the raison d'�XC43,1�tre for our activities. It's not enough to have programs which look good on paper; it is important that we reach those people. I urge every MLA in this House, in his or her community work, to speak to those constituents who have difficulty speaking for themselves.
A CRISIS IN THE MAKING: CHALLENGES AND CHOICES
FACING THE CONTEMPORARY UNIVERSITY
A. Warnke: I want to thank the members for Okanagan-Penticton and Richmond East, because I think
[ Page 10024 ]
their comments tie in with what I would like to discuss, and we can only discuss this briefly.
I reflect that 30 years ago a series of events took place at the University of California at Berkeley which are seen as ushering in an era representing the age of the baby-boom generation -- as it has been called -- coming into adulthood. It is believed that this revolution did not stop, but continued globally until the student protests at Tiananmen Square a few years ago in China.
The history of the university in the twentieth century still needs to be written, but I believe the student revolt was a symptom of a more widespread problem in an emerging global society, and certainly a symptom of a problem exhibited in American society. We had our own kind of university crisis at Simon Fraser University -- which I am intimately familiar with -- and at Sir George Williams in the 1960s. I cannot think of many campuses throughout North America and western Europe that were not affected at one time or another by so-called student rebellion and revolution. I think there were problems that existed then that eventually contributed to something called the Berkeley revolution.
As I reflect on it, 30 years ago Canadians responded to particular problems and challenges, unlike Americans. That was the one thing that distinguished Americans from Canadians. Upon reflection, I know that Canadians were euphoric in 1967. Indeed, many Canadians call 1967 the year of euphoria. But I believe that that too was a symptom and that it coincided with a confidence that we had because our elders had responded to the challenges of the time, perhaps in sharp contrast to Americans. In particular, with regard to the universities, the presidents of the time -- John B. Macdonald of the University of British Columbia, who fostered and promoted the idea of Simon Fraser University; Dr. Kenneth Hare, president at the University of British Columbia; Claude Bissell at the University of Toronto, and many others -- responded in such a way that the universities met the challenges.
I think there are symptoms again, as we are now in the process of teaching a new generation. Professors, politicians, the public and students have to face a myriad of new questions. We have to meet the challenges as that generation did 30 years ago in this country. I am confident that they can, because I've met with a few of the university presidents. But we cannot lose sight of some of the challenges before us, otherwise we will lose the public confidence in the university. The university still has a place. The college has a place. The school has a place. As the two previous speakers pointed out, there are many different ways in which learning and teaching takes place. But most important, teaching never stops, as the hon. member pointed out, and that is the way to develop a whole new generation. As soon as we lock out of our minds what teaching is all about, we do face a serious crisis.
[11:00]
In the United States, the symptoms are quite evident. Indeed, a former professor of mine, I'm proud to say -- the late Allan Bloom of the University of Chicago -- wrote just a few years ago:
"The problem of the university now is that it does not offer any distinctive vision to the young person. The person finds the democracy of the disciplines an anarchy. There is no vision; nor is there a set of competing visions of what an educated human being is."
It's pretty symptomatic of a very serious problem. Another professor, Martin Anderson, describes a contemporary American university this way: "Today many of these academic intellectuals have betrayed their profession. They have scorn for their students, and they disdain teaching." I could go on. It's a symptom of something seriously wrong with the American higher education system.
I'll have a few more comments, but I think we're on the right track when our generation brings into being the University of Northern British Columbia. It reminds me of when Simon Fraser University was established in 1965. It is a university that has potential, and one thing that we have to do -- I'll say others -- is get behind this university. I'm pleased that the officials came down to the lower mainland. I think it's extremely important that this province binds itself together. There are problems, and it's a challenge. But B.C. can bind itself together once we begin to recognize that we can meet the challenges by making the correct choices.
I wait to hear whoever responds, and we will see what my comments later will entail.
L. Boone: It must have been deja vu that the member mentioned UNBC -- the newest, most contemporary university in this province, and the one that I'm extremely proud of.
This university is coming into northern British Columbia. It will be opened in August. It has come about because of the people there, who for years were tired of being ignored, of having to pay transportation costs and accommodation, and of having to uproot themselves to come down to the lower mainland to obtain an education, which people in the lower mainland take for granted. We all know, when we see the increasing costs of education, increasing tuition fees.... Well, those from outside the lower mainland -- whether they be in the Kootenays, in the Kamloops region or in my region of Prince George -- have had to pay transportation and accommodation costs on top of all those things. Not only that, but we're also faced with the whole challenge of uprooting somebody, taking them away from their support base, from their families, and putting them into a sometimes totally foreign area, where they really can't relate whatsoever. It's not unusual for students from Burns Lake, for example, to come back to their community, having found that they just can't cope with the social aspect of university life down in the lower mainland.
For the first time, northern residents have a choice -- and that is really something -- as to where they go to university. They may, in fact, choose to go to UVic or to UNBC, but those choices have never been available to them before. It's really a challenging experience for us. Southerners will also have that choice. Southern students, those in Victoria, will be able to come north. You know, the road actually does travel both ways! People will be able to come north to university in Prince George. When people do that, sometimes they find that in fact the north is a great place to live -- as I did. I went there in 1969 thinking that I would spend a year, and I'm still there. That is not an unusual experience, because people who come to a community outside the lower mainland often find that they like the lifestyle.
Our university cannot be simply a duplication of the universities in the southern half of the province. I have stated that right along. I appreciate the comment of my colleague for Richmond-Steveston that we would fail if we tried to duplicate UBC, SFU or UVic. UNBC must be and will be a unique university that meets the challenges of northern life, and not just from the perspective of being situated in Prince George. It cannot and it will not be a Prince George university only; it must be a university that reaches out to all communities.
My colleague the hon. member for Prince George North and I have been working long and hard with the
[ Page 10025 ]
administration and the college board to make sure that the structures work with the colleges. That type of partnership doesn't normally exist, because universities tend to think of themselves in isolation. They don't reach out to the colleges and open the lines of communication to make sure that their courses don't overlap.
It hasn't been an easy challenge, but UNBC has reached out. They are working with the various colleges and school boards in the regions to make sure that they are providing services and courses. We can't have everything offered throughout all of the regions. But there are some opportunities for people to attend university courses in Dawson Creek and Fort St. John. It's an exciting prospect that will really open up and renew the north.
This government has met the challenges that are facing northern residents, and I'm really proud of the way all northern communities have accepted that challenge, making sure that educational opportunities are available to all. I urge students throughout the lower mainland who can't get into a college or who can't find their courses to come to UNBC.
Hon. Speaker, the interesting thing is that when we were first promoting this, we were in opposition, and you and I both know that we had a lot of discussions. We were told that people wouldn't come. Well, they have come. We have a 1,500-student limit, and we already have 1,000 applications.
A. Warnke: This is one of the few times that I actually didn't mind the hon. member going on way past the red light: it's darned good advertising for the University of Northern British Columbia.
I appreciate the remarks of the member. There are still some challenges, but there are choices before us as well. One challenge is how we are going to govern the new universities. I just want to caution, when we begin to make choices, that we do not necessarily get caught up in the concept of entrepreneurialism. The new entrepreneurialism doesn't necessarily apply to each and every situation. In the last analysis, that's very dangerous. Universities can and should learn from that experience, but we cannot impose that model on the university.
Secondly, we face the problem of values. One interesting thing in America is this concern about the decomposition of the university. Right now there is little agreement about what we should study. No serious intellectual life is without some great divisions of spirit and of values, and this is needed. This is why, as Prof. Lewis Feuer pointed out, the conflict of the generations sometimes stimulates the most profound and best thoughts of our society. We need to address that; we need to understand the role of teaching more than ever before. I refer to one comment that was mentioned in the American context: "No public career these days -- no doctor, no lawyer, no politician, no journalist, no businessman or entertainer -- has much to do with humane learning." To me, that is an admission that there is a problem with teaching. We have to inject encouragement into our system. We are developing a new generation and we want to be genuine teachers. As well, we want to inculcate the best to a new, succeeding generation.
Finally -- and most appropriate to us -- is the relationship between government and the university. The university has a new role; it has changed tremendously in the twentieth century. I happen to believe that it is going to undergo a profound change in the next decade. I think we have a potential crisis in the making. I want to urge the politicians, businessmen, educators and everyone involved to be aware of the crisis and the challenges. Let us hope and pray, and let us dedicate ourselves to responding to those challenges.
Deputy Speaker: Thank you, member. I want to thank all the members for the sincerity, passion and thoughtfulness of their comments. I think we've been well served this morning. That ends private members' statements.
Hon J. MacPhail: Committee of Supply, hon. Speaker.
The House in Committee of Supply B; G. Brewin in the chair.
ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ATTORNEY GENERAL
(continued)
On vote 16: minister's office, $424,063 (continued).
A. Warnke: I recognize that the purpose of estimates and the estimates debate is to review the programs and policies of the government, but sometimes it is to review the conduct of the ministries as well. Therefore my opening comment is in that context.
Yesterday the Liberal critic for the Attorney General advised that the Liberal caucus was reviewing the affidavit submitted by the Attorney General. The caucus also consulted on the matter with independent legal counsel. As a result of that review and consultation, it is really more than just an impulsive reaction. As a result of deserved, careful consideration, the Attorney General critic and the B.C. Liberal leader, the member for Vancouver-Quilchena, have called for the resignation of the Attorney General, with the special prosecutor investigating the swearing of false information on an affidavit last year. It is our view that by the false affidavit, the Attorney General -- whether intentionally or not -- clearly misled the courts, and that the Attorney General's first responsibility is not to the government but to the courts and the people of British Columbia.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Ordinarily I wouldn't respond to this statement, but I think I should. It's generally my style to not let things go unanswered, if I can possibly do that.
I understand what the member has said, which is a different response from the earlier response of his caucus. That's fair enough; they've had a change of mind.
I just want to say to members, as I've said before, that if from the swearing of information by a private citizen, which is not processed by the justice of the peace and which then has an automatic consequence of a special prosecutor being appointed -- clearly independent of me -- there is somehow a logic that the person in question should resign, we would be in a situation before very much time has elapsed where every Attorney General who only one person wants to get will always be having to resign, and so will all members.
The former Minister of Health was in a similar situation last year with respect to health issues raised by the same individual. In my view, there was -- and I think this was generally agreed upon -- no reason for her to resign during the investigation that automatically followed.
The same applies in my case. I gave some very serious consideration to whether I should step aside from my ministerial responsibilities. I've said that before -- not because I felt that I had done anything wrong, because I have done absolutely nothing wrong. The mistake I made was to forget that I had jotted a couple of comments and listed the names of people in attendance at a meeting. I'd forgotten I
[ Page 10026 ]
did that, and I swore an honest affidavit in August. I swore what I knew to be true at the time, and I so attested. On Monday of this week I discovered that I had been in error. I immediately set about to correct that error so the court would have the correct information. So there was no wrongdoing whatsoever.
I give this assurance to all members: if in my mind there had been even the slightest possibility -- a less than 1 percent chance -- that there was something wrong with what I had done, I would have been out of here -- absolutely.
[11:15]
The reason I gave it serious consideration and the reason I took as long as I did revolved around the perception issue. I decided, on the balance that one concludes with as a result of going through these decisions, that more harm would be done to our system by me resigning in those circumstances than by staying on. I've done absolutely nothing wrong. There is a routine procedure followed, as is required by the Crown Counsel Act. It's an appropriate and independent procedure which will run its course without any direction of any kind from me or from people who work for me.
It's an awkward situation; I don't mind saying that to members. On balance, at the conclusion of my careful consideration of this issue, I simply say that I honestly believed that more harm would be done to public officials in the long term by my resigning under those circumstances and setting that kind of precedent than would be done by continuing. It wasn't the key factor, but I was also very much aware of some very serious public policy issues -- which we've debated in these estimates yesterday and throughout the last few days -- that I had a very direct responsibility to deal with and an obligation to be held accountable for. I felt that to run away from those responsibilities in the face of what is fairly intense pressure around those issues would not be in the public interest in any way at this point. I felt that the public interest was served by me being here on my feet, available and accountable for matters that had transpired within my area of responsibility.
I'm not sure I can say anything new, except, in conclusion, simply that I respect the decision that several opposition members took immediately on Monday to suggest that I should not hold the office. I respect the fact that other members of the opposition took a different position at the time. No one should ever have to stick forever with a position that they took originally, so a change of heart at this time, in face of the Vancouver Sun and Rafe Mair, is understandable. I won't take any political points from that. Having said all of that, I don't intend to say anything more about that matter in the House. That's it, and any further comments I have will be restricted to the other process that is continuing.
A. Warnke: I just want to make a final response. What I suppose one can agree with is that any call for an investigation by any member of the public -- in this case, Mr. Watson.... We understand that process; in fact, we recognize the difficulty of that process and the implications that it could have. The reason why the official opposition took some caution on this was because -- and I agree with the Attorney General -- we did not want to react impulsively to whatever is out there. However, with the affidavit, there is the question of what is contained in the notes. As a result, we've taken the position, with the Attorney General's admission that he provided false information to the courts, that the Attorney General, the chief lawmaker of this province, has seemingly committed perjury. As a consequence of that, it is our view -- not because of the investigation but because of the question of what was contained in the notes -- that the Attorney General cannot continue to hold the current position.
The Chair: Excuse me, hon. member. It has been suggested that some of the language you have used is inappropriate. Perhaps you might want to reconsider the phrasing.
K. Jones: It's just a quotation of what was already said.
The Chair: I'm not going to argue at this stage, but I would like to advise you to give some thought to the words you have used.
A. Warnke: Thank you, hon. Chair. If there is anything that impugns the member, I will certainly withdraw any offensive remarks. It is still our view that he cannot continue to hold the position of chief law enforcement officer of the province under the present circumstances. Therefore, in that context, we would advise that the Attorney General must immediately resign.
K. Jones: The line of questioning we'd like to take today with regard to the estimates has to do with the continuation of a serious look into the corrections area. For a starter, I'd like to ask the Attorney General to explain the classification process. Who does it, and what are the records procedures involved?
Hon. P. Priddy: I ask leave to make an introduction, hon. Chair.
Leave granted.
Hon. P. Priddy: With us in the gallery today are members from the Business and Professional Women's Clubs of B.C. and the Yukon. They are women who work in communities across this province in the areas of stopping violence against women, economic equality and women's health, and in a variety of other areas that make a tremendous difference in women's lives. The representatives who are here are Gail Jones, Elizabeth Marshall, Bev Wilson, Jill Worobec and Marjorie Flentge. I would ask the House to please make them welcome.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: In his question the member for Surrey-Cloverdale did not distinguish between the youth and adult systems. Different procedures apply in each. In the adult system, classification officers make the decisions about placement based on a wide variety of considerations and obviously looking at many issues. In the youth system, the judge who sentences the convicted offender makes a recommendation about the level of security required.
K. Jones: In the case of the adult classification, could the Attorney General please explain the process, who it is done by and at what stage during the intake of the prisoner, so that the public can understand the purpose and procedures for that classification?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Again, in the adult system, following sentence, in the normal course of events an offender would be taken to the nearest appropriate facility, at which point the person would be interviewed by a classification officer. The classification officer would also have at his or her disposal all of the information pertaining to
[ Page 10027 ]
that particular individual. Then a decision would be made by that classification officer as to the appropriate placement.
K. Jones: Is that classification officer a corrections officer -- a person in the line -- or a higher-level person?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I understand there are two classifications in the corrections branch that do this work: one is a principal officer and the other is a senior correctional officer. Those are the two classifications attached to the people who do the classifications.
K. Jones: Could the minister explain the duties of each?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Their duties are to classify convicted offenders.
K. Jones: I don't find that answer at all adequate. There are two different classification officers, as the Attorney General has indicated, yet he doesn't define why there are two. He just said: "They do classification." That's pretty evident. Could you explain why there are two and what their separate duties are?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Senior correctional officers work in larger institutions than principal officers do. They both do the classifications. That's their job description.
K. Jones: Could the Attorney General tell us which types of facilities, as examples, these two different people are in?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Senior correctional officers would work at places like the Fraser Regional Correctional Centre or Surrey Pretrial. Principal officers would work at a smaller camp or camp-style facility -- not Lakeview, which is a youth centre; the member is talking about the adult system. Chilliwack forest camp is an example of the smaller centre where a principal officer would be doing the classification.
K. Jones: Could the Attorney General explain the philosophy or purpose of this classification process?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The classification officer's job is to determine the level of security that would be required for a particular individual and to determine how that person could best be rehabilitated within the system during the course of their custody -- in other words, to try to develop the right response to make sure that, when the person is released, the person would not be likely to reoffend.
[11:30]
K. Jones: Would the Attorney General's statement be that this was primarily intended to look at the prisoner's rehabilitative capabilities? Is that the reason for the process?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: It's fair to say that the classification officers would look at issues of rehabilitation. They would also look at public safety. That concern -- the need to ensure that the public is secure both during the time of custody and after -- is a primary responsibility.
K. Jones: With the two provisos of public safety and rehabilitation, which does the classification officer use in making the decision?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I thought my comment a minute ago was that the public's security and safety is a primary -- I used the word "primary," I'm sure -- and, if you want, overriding consideration.
One needs to understand that they are linked. An effective rehabilitation program obviously provides a great deal of public security because if it has been effective, the person will not reoffend. If it's effective, the person is not likely to try to escape during their time. So they are linked. Clearly, the obligation of the classification officers is to ensure that the public has its needs well served. They do that in a variety of ways.
K. Jones: The classification officers' duties appear to be fairly important to the entire process. Do they operate independently in making their judgments and in putting that direction on the person's future incarceration or is that done by consultation with others in the corrections system?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The classification officers make the decision; that decision is therefore made. If in making the decision they feel a need to consult or to get further advice, then that advice and consultation is available to them by talking to their superiors in the branch. Any concern that might exist following the placement would then invoke further consideration by more senior members of the branch. The answer to the question is that the classification officers make the decision, and then the decision is implemented.
K. Jones: Could the Attorney General explain to us what the process is whereby a senior officer would review the classification decisions made by a classification officer?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I think it's fair to say that it's a normal kind of management practice that the classification officer's superiors will always be responsible for the work the classification officers do. They will talk to the people who work for them about what they are doing and about decisions. They will be in the institution, and if there are some questions that they encounter or some evidence that there should be further discussion about the classification, then the more senior members of the institution would look at the decision made by the classification officer, and either continue it or vary it.
K. Jones: What process is used for this monitoring? Who is the next person in line above the classification officer, what is their routine to review the decisions made by the classification officer, and in what time period is that done?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: We're still talking about the adult system. In larger facilities the immediately more senior person is the deputy director; in the smaller facilities I believe the title is the district director. The term "local director" has been used historically, but it has now been replaced by the term "district director." There is no routine practice of a formal review of each classification decision, but routine management responsibility is taken. In the course of exercising that management responsibility, it would happen in a routine manner if further discussion concerning a classification is required.
K. Jones: Just to go back over this: a classification officer takes a person in, they make a decision, do a report about the classification of that person, and some time later the deputy director will routinely review all of the classifications, or just special ones. On what basis are they alerted to look at these special ones?
[ Page 10028 ]
Hon. C. Gabelmann: In the normal course of events the deputy or the district directors would be responsible for pursuing any concerns that may exist -- either in the minds of a classification officer or other employees within the facility, or in their own mind -- but they don't sign off as a matter of routine. In other words, they don't formally sit down and review the file as a matter of course and make another decision with respect to the offender. It is not a practice that two staff people make the decision; the decision is made by the classification officer. If they feel there is some cause to review that decision, the deputy director or the district director will review it. It may be in another facility by this point, because the initial classification officer may be in one facility and the person in custody may be sent to another centre as a result of the decision. So, just by being there, the director in the facility where the person is in custody will, in the normal course of events, have an opportunity to make some decisions about whether that seems to be an appropriate classification. If it doesn't seem appropriate, or if there seems to be something wrong with that decision, then it would be reviewed by the deputy director.
K. Jones: So in the chain of command in the classification process, there is no one between the classification officer and the district director. Is that what you've said?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I trust that I will get this right. In each regional correctional centre, the case manager/coordinator is between the classification officer and the deputy director. That's in each region, as I understand it. I'm having an organizational chart drawn for me, which may help us both.
K. Jones: This is really very important as we try to understand the corrections process. I think the public confidence in the corrections process hinges quite heavily upon the perception of this classification process. It is a vital factor in the disposition of a person in custody. I understand that there are many uses for this classification process. Could the Attorney General tell us all the areas that this classification impacts on?
[11:45]
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I was anticipating the next question and getting the answer, and the next question didn't come. I think another question came, which I didn't hear.
K. Jones: My apologies to the Attorney General for not following his anticipation, but I'm afraid I'm not able to read his mind. I can only try to carry out questioning that will bring forward the information required for the public's interest.
The question basically asked the minister how the classification process is used throughout the corrections system. What decisions are affected by the information that this classification officer determines?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The first time I didn't hear the question; the second time I didn't really understand it. It sounds very much like the first question the member asked me. What happens is that the classification officers encounter someone who has just been sentenced, and they -- again, in the adult system -- make a decision about where that sentence should be carried out. So that's what they do. There are 10,500 of those decisions made in the course of a year.
K. Jones: What we're trying to find out is if this is used as a person moves through the system. Is it used on a daily basis? Whose decisions are made on the basis of this information?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: If the member is asking me if this first decision is the permanent decision or, alternatively, if there is an opportunity to subsequently make additional and different decisions, the answer is the latter: reclassification. Classification occurs on entry; reclassification can occur during the course of the sentence.
K. Jones: That isn't exactly what I was trying to get at. I was actually trying to find out whether, in the day-to-day decisions by the various people in the corrections process, the particular information that's determined for that person is utilized by other people in dealing with that person. Which people use it and for what purposes?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The answer is yes. The information is used by other people who work in the institution in order to help determine what kind of eye they should keep on the individual and what kind of monitoring should occur. So people who work in the institution have available to them the information provided by the classification officer.
K. Jones: This classification information, being as vital as it is, is used on a day-to-day basis. What types of words are used in the classification documentation? How do they use this material, and what is the material that's provided under classification?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: If the member is asking me what the reports contain and how long they are -- I think I heard that as the question -- the reports can be any length. They're commonly more than several pages long, and they talk about things that need to be monitored by members of staff and about issues that may be of concern about a particular individual. Those reports will vary. There is a report that deals with the security-related issues, and there is also information available on the rehabilitation side of the equation. If that doesn't answer the member's question, he may want to try again.
K. Jones: Is the Attorney General saying that there's a description of this person regarding their rehabilitation program and their risk potential -- whether they are a risk to the population within the prison, whether they are at risk themselves from the population and also whether they are a risk to the general public? Is that also included?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: There are a wide variety of characterizations. People might be at risk from other members of the inmate population; they may be a person who creates a risk internally; they may be a risk publicly; there may be a risk of suicide. A whole variety of potential issues are included, where appropriate, in these classification and rehabilitation reports.
K. Jones: With these items in the reports, are there other records that are generated from this classification record? If so, could the minister describe what other records are generated and how they're used?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Each inmate in each institution has a log -- this is generally a paper record -- with information on it regarding classification. The classification would include background on the inmate and the record and issues of that kind. There would be issues relating to security on the
[ Page 10029 ]
log as well. We've talked about the kinds of security issues that might exist. There is the log. It's in the institution; it's available to staff who work in the institution. It is updated periodically whenever there is a need to bring the information up to date.
K. Jones: In addition to the personal log kept for each person in custody, are other documents also generated -- either in a paper form or electronically? Could you describe each of those?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Let me back up a little and try to explain more broadly what there is with respect to records. The log is kept in the living unit in which the prisoner is housed. That log is updated -- earlier I said regularly. Entries are made in the log virtually every day as to what's occurring. In addition to that, there are other files in the institution. There is a medical record, so that there is information in respect of the inmate's medical history and problems, if they exist. There is another record, the legal record, which would include information around their criminal record. Then there is a computer record that includes the criminal record, security alerts and other important information -- medical information, in particular -- which is drawn from the other paper records, but obviously in a briefer form and available on the computer system for quick and ready access.
K. Jones: Does the adult or youth classification record give a description of the person's past criminal record?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: In the adult system, the adult criminal record is on the computer. I want to come back to the member later on the question of whether an adult's computer record in the institution includes a history of any activity that may have occurred under the YOA. I don't know the answer to that, but I'm going to find out. I hope to be able to get back to the member shortly.
K. Jones: Could the minister tell us what the record process is with regard to the youth classification?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The same system that I described for the adult system applies in youth facilities. The only difference is that we haven't had enough money to computerize, so there's not much available on computer records in the youth system; it's a paper-based record, more than it is in the adult system. But it's the same process, the same procedure and the same kind of information retention.
K. Jones: There is a similar process, then, for both of them. You indicated that in the youth process the classification was actually done by the judge. Is no custodial classification work done? Are changes made to the process on an ongoing basis, and under what process? Are those referred back to the courts before they're made?
[12:00]
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The judge will make the decision about whether the custody is to be secure or open. Then the classification officials within the youth system will make the decision about which particular facility will be utilized. That's obviously to try to deal with overcrowding in some and maybe underutilization in others -- to find the best way of managing the caseload, given the limited resources.
I'm sorry, it's case managers; let's just get precise. Case managers in the youth system would make the decision about placement, within the context of the judge's decision.
During the course of the confinement, if the corrections branch feels that a different level of security should be required -- either way, up or down, from secure to open or from open to secure -- the corrections branch has the opportunity to go back to the court and make an application to have the security level changed.
K. Jones: Generally speaking, in the youth process the records of the person in custody are not made public. Could you tell us where there might be exceptions to that? Have there been any in the past year?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: To the best of my knowledge and ability to answer the question at the moment, in the last year one court order in British Columbia gave to the police the right to publicize the record. It was a two-day, limited ability to make public the fact that there was a youth offence. That was the case we discussed at some length in the House yesterday.
K. Jones: Would it be broaching any confidences to name the case, since it and the record are in the public media?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: That two-day period elapsed some time ago. I'm not able, under the law, to make that kind of disclosure.
K. Jones: I'd find this rather amusing, if it weren't so serious. The material is already in the public's hands, yet the Attorney General says that he cannot talk about the case or about that person's record because of some legal technicality. How can that be?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: It's not a question of a legal technicality; either there's a law or there isn't. When the Parliament of Canada passes an act, it becomes the law; it doesn't become a technicality. I, of all people in this province, have a responsibility to obey the laws of Canada, and I try my very best to do that -- although I must say that on occasion there's a temptation to do something I must not. Nonetheless, I'm sworn to uphold the law, and I will do my very best to avoid slipping.
K. Jones: In his comments yesterday responding to the Danny Perrault case, the Attorney General indicated his concern that all aspects of Corrections be open. He feels frustrated that information is going to the opposition and to people in the media but is not coming freely to him. He sent the people in Corrections an invitation to bring their concerns directly to the Attorney General, yet I have been apprised that over the last four or five months at least three letters from corrections staff have been sent directly to the Attorney General without a reply. Is the Attorney General aware that these are in his ministry?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I want to make sure that I understand the question precisely. Did the member say that three letters from employees of the corrections branch have been sent directly to me and have not been replied to? Is that the member's question?
K. Jones: Yes, that information has come to me, and it is very current. This happened over the last four to five months.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I'm not aware of that, but I will ask my staff, who are listening in my office, to check and see if
[ Page 10030 ]
that's the case. Given the volume of mail we get, my normal turnover for letters is in the several-month range. Unfortunately, it's impossible to be speedier than that. I will check and get an answer on that question for the member.
Earlier I undertook to get an answer on another question, which I'll try to provide now. The member was asking if our electronic or computerized records contain references to offences committed while a currently adult inmate was covered by the YOA. The provincial case file -- which is the electronic system we're talking about -- does contain the history of both youth and adult sentences which were carried out, by the classifications report. So this does make reference to any relevant youth infractions. That information is available to the classification officers.
K. Jones: Thank you for that clarification. So we're dealing just with that last point, that all persons in the corrections process dealing with these people know exactly the true nature of all the past history, criminal-wise and violent-wise, of the person they are dealing with?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: They would have the criminal record available to them on the screen, yes.
L. Fox: I appreciate the member for Surrey-Cloverdale giving me the opportunity to step in.
I would like to canvass a number of issues within this ministry. I am dismayed and concerned that the Attorney General would continue in his estimates, given the events that have come to light in the last couple of days. The office of Attorney General demands integrity and the confidence of British Columbians. In order to protect the integrity of the office of Attorney General, does the minister not believe that the first action he should take would be to suspend these estimates, and secondly, to step aside until the air is cleared? We must have confidence in this Legislature and throughout British Columbia that the answers we are getting are indeed coming from the high office of the AG, with no question about integrity.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I answered the second question at 11:15 this morning, and when I did so I indicated that I would have nothing further to say on the matter.
With respect to the first question, if members of the opposition feel that it would be appropriate for these estimates to await the current events, I would have no difficulty in having that discussion with the House Leader. I sure wouldn't want members to think that I was trying to avoid my responsibilities in dealing with some very important issues that are before the public at the present time. It was for that reason that I felt I had an obligation to stand up here. As members know, our estimates were called in the normal course of events, and more than a week ago they were notified that they would be on this week. But if members feel that it would be more appropriate to delay them, I'm quite happy to talk to the House Leader about that. My concern is my obligation to the public to be accountable, and I'm prepared to cooperate with members in determining how best to achieve that.
[12:15]
L. Fox: I respect the minister's last statement. I am extremely disappointed -- as I think most British Columbians are -- that he chose not to step aside while this investigation is taking place. But in light of his answer, at this point I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Motion approved.
The House resumed; D. Lovick in the chair.
Committee of Supply B, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I move that the House do now adjourn.
G. Farrell-Collins: On a point of order, I understand that a motion was just passed in this chamber that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again. My understanding is that the debate that took place beforehand was one of whether or not this House was comfortable debating the Attorney General's estimates, given the cloud that hangs over the ministry. I would suggest....
Deputy Speaker: I'm sorry, member, I don't see the point of order, unless there's a particular standing order you care to refer to.
Hon. C. Gablemann moved adjournment of the House.
Motion approved.
The House adjourned at 12:20 p.m.
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