1993 Legislative Session: 2nd Session, 35th Parliament HANSARD
The following electronic version is for informational purposes only. The printed version remains the official version.
(Hansard)
TUESDAY, MAY 18, 1993
Morning Sitting
Volume 10, Number 4
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The House met at 10:03 a.m.
Prayers.
Hon. M. Sihota: Hon. Speaker, I wasn't here yesterday to welcome you back. It's a pleasure to see you back.
I call Committee of Supply. I should advise hon. members that the estimates of the Ministry of Attorney General will be in the Douglas Fir Room under Committee A, and Section B will be meeting in this chamber, of course, dealing with the estimates of the Ministry of Economic Development, Small Business and Trade.
The House in Committee of Supply B; E. Barnes in the chair.
ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, SMALL BUSINESS AND TRADE
On vote 23: minister's office, $347,800.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to begin with some brief introductions on the ministry's activities and the provincial outlook for economic development in the province at the provincial and community levels.
I'd like to introduce the officials who are coming in: Ian McKinnon, the deputy minister; Bob Adams, assistant deputy minister; and Dawn Jones from our finance and administration section. They will be with me throughout part of the day.
British Columbia's economy is the strongest in Canada, and it's getting stronger. The TD Bank's latest report on provincial economies of May 12 says that British Columbia's economy is continuing to set the pace for nationwide economic recovery. B.C. has largely escaped the recession and is expected to lead the country with 3.5 percent economic growth in 1993, compared to 3 percent nationally. I know we predicted in our budget a more conservative figure of 3.2 percent, but there are estimates ranging upwards of 4.4 percent. We prefer to be on the cautious and realistic side -- we hope. If it improves beyond that, as many people think it will, then I think we will be fortunate. The 1994 prediction of 4 percent growth in B.C. is expected to be greater than in all of the provinces but Ontario.
The most recent StatsCan figures for B.C. are also extremely positive. Manufacturing shipments for January were up 6.1 percent from 1992, and in February up 9.5 percent. Retail sales were up 9.6 percent in January from 1992 levels and up 12.3 percent in February. Businesses and corporations were up 5.4 percent through the first three months of 1993 compared to '92, including up 18.5 percent in March, and that 1992 level was the highest in three years. Business bankruptcies were down 33.8 percent in January and February from the previous year, and the 1992 level was the lowest in seven years.
Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation last week issued revised predictions for Canadian housing starts in 1993. They predict an 8.3 percent increase in B.C. housing starts this year compared to 2.3 percent for Canada as a whole. That's approximately four times greater growth in British Columbia. Only Manitoba and Saskatchewan are expecting a larger increase. Housing starts are expected to decline in Ontario, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and Alberta.
Peat Marwick Thorne recently released a study of inbound investment in B.C., surveying 164 known B.C. companies. Of the companies surveyed, 50 percent showed profitability at or above expected levels compared to 45 percent last year. Respondents intend to increase their investment in B.C. this year by 6 percent, from $447 million to $477 million. One-quarter, 24 percent, of these companies plan to hire new staff this year, and 29 percent plan to introduce new products. When asked about issues of concern, less than a third, about 30 percent, identified provincial or local taxes as a concern, while nearly half, 48 percent, expressed concern about the federal corporate tax system. Labour concerns dropped from 35 percent of all concerns expressed in last year's survey to 29 percent this year. Only three of 160 responding companies expressed concern about the quality of B.C. labour.
One of the most important principles in our approach to economic development is the recognition that a strategy imposed from Victoria will not work. That is why a restructuring of the ministry was required. I have travelled all over the province speaking with community leaders about restructuring, discussing how we can consult and plan together for the economic future of British Columbia and its regions.
The most visible change in the ministry has been a tripling of our regional economic field staff, which was accomplished while actually reducing overall costs. We did this by cutting the size of the bureaucracy in Victoria, by moving $1.3 million of resources out of Victoria and into the regions, and we saved the ministry half a million dollars in staff costs in the process. We shifted the focus of the ministry away from Victoria to where we could build practical strategies and plans responding to different regional needs in different communities, wherever possible. This puts more people in our regional offices to work with communities around the province.
These regional economic development officers -- who are the main fieldworkers -- will work closely with community, business, aboriginal, equity and other groups to identify development needs. They will work with agencies and levels of government to rationalize the delivery of services in the regions. They will assist with community adjustment and community planning. They will ensure that the regions continue to have a say in the development of programs and policies delivered in their area and help them to remain competitive in the global economy. This work has already started. For example, the REDOs have provided hands-on assistance to the Mowachaht band in Gold River developing and preparing a business plan for their
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tourism project on Nootka Island. This work took place right in their own community. These people have provided assistance to the North Island Woodlot Association in developing a proposal for the formation of a corporation to manage private and public forest lands in the Comox Valley area.
Our efforts are targeted at two fundamental challenges: dealing with the short-term effects of the recession, and helping transform the economy for the next century, while recognizing that these challenges are especially difficult outside the lower mainland. Our primary concern is to help British Columbia recover from the current recession by building a base of quality jobs to carry us into the next century. Some activities we have already undertaken, which I will be discussing in detail, are as follows: community adjustment projects, venture capital programs, job preservation through the Job Protection Commission, home-based business workshops, businesswomen's programs and assistance to young entrepreneurs.
The community and regional development division of the ministry is working with many communities around the province to help them become economically and socially sustainable. The division works with community leaders, organizations, interest groups, businesses and other government agencies to help each community plan for and achieve a diversified economy to reduce exposure to the boom-and-bust cycles associated with dependency on a single resource or industry; to provide industrial expansion to add value to natural resources extracted nearby; to access job training and educational opportunities; to provide infrastructures, such as adequate hospitals, schools and roads; to support economic activity and healthy living; and to have meaningful involvement of local residents in decisions that affect them.
The division is moving decision-making from Victoria to the regions by relocating staff and giving them enough clout to make a real difference, especially in program design and delivery that will take place at the local level. Appropriate decision-making and spending authority have been transferred to the regions. Regional staff are working with communities on local problems. For example, they are working with the Peace River agricultural steering committee to develop a long-term agricultural plan for the Peace River area and participating in discussions with Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources in Fort Nelson regarding the maintenance of the nearby Sierra-Desan road -- and other projects, such as the proposal to build the new pulp and paper mill near Vanderhoof and proposed construction of a cogeneration plant in Houston to produce electricity from wood waste.
The community economic development activities underway include the administration of the $25 million natural resource community fund. We budgeted to spend approximately $3 million this year. This is a fund that helps communities facing crises as a result of resource industry downsizing. Approximately 20 communities have requested information on the program.
The development and implementation of community economic development services includes adjustment assistance to communities in the Elk Valley and the district of Stewart, which were hard hit by recent mine closures -- for example, over 13 agreements have been signed in the Elk Valley which will provide working capital for businesses and save 77 jobs; innovative approaches to sustainable community development issues, such as pilot initiatives underway in Kimberley and Creston; a collaborative development project between eight Gold Country communities and four government agencies to assist with economic and social revitalization in Ashcroft, Cache Creek, Clinton, Lytton, Logan Lake, Savona, Spences Bridge and Lillooet; partnerships with communities in strategic planning processes, such as the Imagine Nanaimo project, which involves large-scale community participation; an innovative community development pilot project in Merritt in partnership with the Social Planning and Research Council of B.C., the University of Victoria and the city of Merritt to design and implement an economic plan that integrates social and environmental interests; capacity building pilot projects, such as the Mayors' Institute; organizing regional initiatives such as the northern ministers' conference, which is coming up in Smithers later this year, and public consultation meetings and summits such as the Kootenay symposium, which will be held in Castlegar in June to deal with the issues around the Columbia basin. The ministry continues to encourage community economic development by contributing $1.4 million toward cost-sharing agreements with more than 70 economic development commissions all over the province and ongoing consultations through the regional advisory committees and councils. We have developed a guidebook entitled A Place to Start that is intended to help communities deal with the effects of adjustment. It's now in its final review stage with partner ministries.
[10:15]
The aboriginal economic development activities that we've been involved in include community adjustment work with the Gitanyow and Gitksan, trying to help those communities adjust to the Kitwanga mill closure. We're working on the Wet'suwet'en community healing project in conjunction with five other ministries. The work looks at the social and economic development concerns of the Wet'suwet'en nation. We're working with the Tahltan development corporation and with the Aboriginal Affairs ministry, the Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources ministry and the Transportation and Highways ministry in an effort to reduce the possible effects of the Golden Bear mine closure. The job protection commissioner is now involved in reviewing the situation. We're working with the Shuswap Nation Tribal Council on initiatives in areas such as training, leadership capacity building and business plan development. We're complying with the joint stewardship memorandum of understanding with the Xaxli'p nation. Under the agreement, a feasibility study with respect to value-added use of wood waste is underway. And we're working with the Haisla and Tsimshian nations on the Orenda socioeconomic review.
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The community and regional division also provides access to approximately 40 different programs and services on behalf of 18 ministries through government agent offices located in 60 communities across the province. Government agents have been the point of contact for people seeking access to provincial government services in communities not large enough to warrant branch offices of other ministries. In doing so, many communities view government agents as the human face of government in their communities. Government agents have been serving the public for over 100 years. They have received a quality service award and continue to be ranked very good or excellent in service by 85 percent of their clients. Just yesterday I was visiting the government agent's office in Penticton, and it was difficult to talk to the staff because they were trying to serve the public before they would take time to have a coffee and talk to the minister. I think that shows dedication.
Interjection.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Oh, quite the contrary. They enjoy it when they get a chance to sit down. I think it's quite remarkable, actually. You would expect people to drop everything and speak with the minister, but they made sure that they served the public first.
I think those of us who have had dealings with a government agent's office can say that they serve the public well. I actually don't recall a letter complaining about the service provided in a government agent's office. I think that's a tribute to a longstanding tradition of service -- one which is unique in British Columbia, incidentally. Our challenge is to maintain the cost-effectiveness of that program in the face of other ministries wanting to achieve their own....
L. Fox: Free enterprise: serve the customer first.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Serve the customer first -- that has to be part of the corporate culture of the public service.
Recently the government agents have improved access to vital statistics services in the regions through a new vital statistics computer system in their offices. They streamlined the delivery of government services by establishing one-stop access centres housing several government services in one location.
Among the many programs and services provided in agents' offices are training for the courts of revision, issuance of hunting and fishing licences, property tax explanation and payment, Medical Services Plan information and payment, voter registration, mining claim and lease information and tags, assistance in landlord-tenant disputes, taking affidavits, providing assistance to the public trustee and specialized services in remote communities, such as banking services in Atlin on behalf of the Bank of Montreal. The government agents play a significant role in the collection of revenues for the province. Last year they collected $843 million on behalf of ministries. The collection grew by $58 million, approximately 7.3 percent, over the previous year.
The ministry encourages private industry to capitalize on the favourable investment climate in B.C. by offering a number of programs and services to promote growth. We are building on the strengths of traditional industries, helping to advance awareness of the province as an investment location, facilitating the availability of equity capital and facilitating worthy investment opportunities. This has been accomplished by producing high-quality publications such as "Competitive Advantage" and "Small Business Taxes," comparing B.C to Washington State. Both won awards from the American Economic Development Council. "Competitive Advantage" also won the Economic Development Association of Canada award.
We've set up the B.C. Investment Office, the BCIO, to identify key private sector investment projects, facilitate their location in B.C. and thus help the private sector create more jobs. The office has fielded more than 80 inquiries, domestic and offshore, since opening October 28, 1992. We helped to establish the Working Opportunity Fund, which is a multipurpose employee venture capital corporation that has raised more than $20 million for investment in B.C. from British Columbians in all regions. Its first investment has been made in a regional, environmentally friendly company based in Kelowna.
We are encouraging investment and job creation through the employee investment program, the employee share ownership program and the equity capital program. The equity capital program encourages B.C. residents and corporations to make equity capital investments in B.C.'s small businesses. In 1992 the program registered 35 new venture capital corporations, raised an additional $27 million for investment in B.C. companies and jobs and invested $20 million in 32 small businesses. Approximately 25 percent of the investments from the equity capital program have been in companies based in the regions of the province. The equity share ownership program encourages B.C. employees to make equity investments in their employer company. This stimulates common economic interest between employers and employees, leading to greater productivity and innovation. As of November 1992, the employee investment program had raised $15.7 million in capital for investment from approximately 4,300 British Columbians, which helped to save firms and jobs by extending the work of the Job Protection Commission. Since April 1992 the JPC has handled 121 inquiries, and developed 13 economic and mediation plans which saved over 1,400 jobs. The JPC has been vital in assisting communities around the province adjust to major industry downsizing -- in Kimberley and Elk Valley, for example -- by helping bring about the following private sector investments in British Columbia: Mitsui Home Co, Ltd., an $11 million processing plant in Langley, 25 jobs; CIPA Lumber Co. Ltd., a $15 million expenditure to reopen the Delta plywood plant, 50 jobs; a new value-added specialty sawmill in Courtenay, 25 jobs; Wellfund Audio-Visual Limited, $14 million television manufacturing plant in Vancouver, 200 jobs; and C&C Wood Products, construction of a $1 million value-added plant in Quesnel, 12 to 16 jobs.
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With respect to small business activities, the Ministry of Economic Development, Small Business and Trade has been working with the Government Services ministry to set up the B.C. Buy Smart program in order to help small businesses create jobs. B.C. Buy Smart is a joint project with the B.C. Purchasing Commission to make it easier for B.C. companies to sell to the government and get paid faster. Improved access and quick payment will help small businesses through improved cash flow and will expand business opportunities. In addition to benefiting B.C. businesses, the improved processing will help in cost savings to government through reduced paperwork and better prices from suppliers. The ministry helps businesses in the regions to use the program by making the computerized system available in government agents' offices and business information centres around the province.
More than three-quarters of all new businesses start from owners' homes. The ministry supports this very important job creation sector through the home-based business program. The home-based business program conducted 63 workshops in all areas of the province during 1992, providing greatly needed information and networks for home-based business operators. Over 1,200 people attended the workshops. These workshops provided essential follow-up information for home-based businesses that would otherwise be unavailable in the regions. The program establishes networks among operators, hosts three large trade shows during the year that result in significant new sales and sales leads for businesses -- approximately 2.5 million in 1992 -- and helps home-based businesses expand.
The office of the businesswomen's advocate, in cooperation with the Ministry of Women's Equality and other agencies, provided assistance in delivering information, resources, referrals, counselling, mentoring programs, and business skill development workshops and seminars. Its 1992-93 activities included distributing about 8,000 resource referral information packages for women starting new businesses; holding 20 workshops around the province, with 800 participants; holding 6 conferences, with over 1,000 participants in total; and working with industry to find ways of removing barriers facing women in business.
The ministry assists young entrepreneurs by holding the B.C. Entrepreneurs Conference around the province. There were 12 held in 1992-93. They drew 15,000 students, introduced them to the basics of starting and running businesses and encouraged those students to consider self-employment as an alternative to finding a summer job. They helped begin development of entrepreneurial skills at an early age so British Columbians can remain competitive in the face of global changes.
We have held high-tech workshops in association with the Northern Interior Science, Technology and Innovation Council. The ministry delivered a one-day conference in Prince George to introduce local small business to information technology systems. The conference provides regional businesses with information on using high technology to keep competitive and to retain or expand their local workforce.
The ministry supports a network of business information centres, which are small business libraries housed in chambers of commerce around the province. There were approximately 150,000 inquiries to the Vancouver BIC, and in Victoria a total of 25,000 inquiries. BICs are a valuable link to current business information that regional businesses rely on to remain competitive. The ministry contributed $667,000 to support business information centres during 1992-93.
VentureNet is a catalogue listing of small to medium-sized businesses in B.C. seeking private investment capital. The catalogue is available to potential investors in B.C. and internationally through our offices abroad. The program has introduced over 1,200 entrepreneurs to potential investors.
The ministry provides advice and guidance to decision-makers. There are specialized research and advisory services to help government and businesses make decisions. The policy and sector specialists provide research, planning, assessment and policy advice in a number of key areas. For example, ministry staff participate in the development of various sectoral strategies; assess the impact of regulations on industry and provide policy advice and direction on regulatory issues; participate in land use, waste management and other strategies that affect industrial development; participate in the development of policy related to infrastructure development in the province; review tax competitiveness; and identify, evaluate, and promote investment opportunities in designated areas such as the Cominco smelter modernization, Vanderhoof Pulp and Paper, the Fort Nelson oriented strand board project, the Mount Polley mine, Noranda Forest Products, and a copper smelter.
The telecommunications and communications industries branch has played a key role in representing the province's interests with federal telecommunications regulators. Over the past year the branch has negotiated with the federal government on proposed new telecommunications privacy legislation; worked with regulators in the industry to ensure services to rural and remote communities, protecting them in the face of increasing competition; actively participated in regulatory proceedings affecting the broadcast sector, encouraging the growth of the industry in the province and supporting higher-quality regional productions; and played a significant role in two major industry development initiatives: the MacDonald Dettwiler land resource management information sharing system, and the relocation of a Radarsat International consortium to Richmond from Ottawa -- it's a secondary processing industry estimated to be worth $400 million in investment over the next ten years.
The trade policy branch of the ministry provides trade policy advice and analysis on trade negotiations and trade dispute issues. Some branch activities include: the development of the province's negotiating position for the NAFTA and GATT negotiations; the development of policy statements and publications on international trade and economic issues, such as the provincial export profile; the preparation and distribution of material on trade trends, development statistics, market opportunities and export performance, for use
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by industry, senior government officials, Crown corporations and the B.C. Trade Development Corporation; and the response to trade-related inquiries from the general public.
[10:30]
The trade advisory branch reviews government legislation, regulations and policy proposals for consistency with existing international trade agreements and defends the interests of the province when disputes arise. Some recent examples would include: developing a new policy regime for water, including exports; providing advice and assistance to the province in the softwood lumber countervail case; and assisting the B.C. Trade Development Corporation in interpreting current international agreements so they can help B.C. firms avoid trade pitfalls.
The policy development branch provides coordinated economic policy development; policy framework and methodology for socioeconomic impact analyses; economic policy input into policy initiatives of other ministries, such as the federal procurement policy, working with Government Services and Finance and Corporate Relations; aboriginal economic development strategy; water policy; environmental assessment legislation; forest sector strategy; labour market development policy; and the Employment Standards Act review.
The policy development branch has also financed and released reports, such as the Celgar chip transportation study, assessing transportation alternatives to trucking wood chips on Highways 6 and 23 to the Celgar pulp mill in Castlegar; co-administered a major project review process with the Ministry of Environment, Lands and Parks; undertaken, as a condition of Orenda's approval in principle, a first nations socioeconomic impact study, which is now nearing completion -- Orenda Forest Products received approval in principle under the MPRP to construct a $400 million pulp and paper mill between Kitimat and Terrace; developed a comprehensive database for potential private sector investments; completed impact assessments of the effect of grazing and other fees on the agricultural community, the 1993 budget fee and licence proposals, contaminated sites legislation, electricity export policy, with the B.C. Energy Council, and community impact assessments -- in the case of Grand Forks, for example. The branch will be undertaking socioeconomic impact studies in support of CORE activities, the protected-areas strategy and other land use processes.
The ministry is looking forward to the future. We have been actively talking to regional leaders about long-term development priorities. This happens on an ongoing basis through the field offices, community-based projects in the community and regional division, sectoral development activities in the industry and investment division, and other activities. We have been planning a symposium this spring in the Kootenays, within the context of a broader comprehensive regional initiative. We are developing it in consultation with other key ministries, such as Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, and the Crown corporations secretariat, which is responsible for the regional development activities of B.C. Hydro, and with the Association of Kootenay and Boundary Municipalities and representatives from the Kinbasket Tribal Council. This is in response to long-held historical grievances in and around mitigation for the impact of the Columbia River Treaty. For the first time in history, the government of British Columbia is sitting down with the stakeholders in the region and discussing the future and the past, with a view to looking at the development potential that might surround the Columbia River Treaty and other development efforts by the province in the region.
We've been working with governments and communities around the Georgia basin to identify and deal with the unique challenges and opportunities that this area faces; participating in the development of a forest sector strategy in consultation with industry, labour, aboriginal and other stakeholders; and working to reduce uncertainty about land use issues by assisting with the CORE processes, land claims and the protected-areas strategy.
There's much more to be done. Our strategy must continue to evolve with changing circumstances. In tight economic times we must work together smarter in government as well as in the private sector. We intend to take a businesslike approach to our involvement in investment projects. We are working on better approaches to project assessment, and we are pursuing innovative new projects such as community-based financing, skills development and community adjustment. We are taking a well-grounded approach to community economic development by including national experts, our universities, community economic development agencies such as SPARC and economic development practitioners in adjustment pilots.
In conclusion, while it has been said that it's always easier to criticize than to actually bring about positive change, this is particularly true in the field of economic development. Promoting sustainable economic development in communities all over the province is a challenge that hasn't always been pursued effectively. This government isn't looking for quick fixes, or for solutions made in Victoria or downtown Vancouver. That approach was tried, but it left us with a changing economy and few ways of helping our communities to adjust.
This government has pursued a more responsible and difficult route: honestly assessing the challenges and then beginning to build from within communities. It's a slow process, one that doesn't come with gimmicks, pat answers or instant solutions. But it's a process that allows individual people and individual communities to come together to find their own answers. The true message of our success is the list of communities receiving meaningful assistance and the list of people being put to work.
The ministry is working in virtually every community in B.C., and these short comments have touched on what we're doing in more than 30 of these communities: from Atlin in the northwest to Fernie in the southeast, and from Fort Nelson in the northeast to Richmond in the southwest. I want to acknowledge the hard work of just over 600 dedicated public servants in
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this ministry. They have undertaken a major transformation of the ministry over the past year and have emerged in a better position than ever before to assist communities all over the province in working towards community stability.
In the face of a challenging national and world economy, British Columbia has been putting people to work as no other province in Canada has. Our economy is expected to create 35,000 new jobs this year, and thousands of people are coming to our province -- for good reason. They're coming here because they see British Columbia as the best place in Canada to live. They see how we're working through tough decisions to balance environmental protection and enhancement with economic health and stability. They see how we're working to balance the maintenance of vital social services with responsible management of government finances. They see how all this is happening in a province that's also addressing long standing concerns of aboriginal people, of women and people who are disadvantaged. Maybe most important, they see British Columbia as a province of opportunity. We have the fastest-growing economy in Canada and the best record for job creation.
We aren't resting on our laurels. This ministry has done some good work over the past year, but we feel there is more to come. I look forward to discussing our plans in more detail through the rest of the estimates debate.
L. Stephens: I'd like to thank the minister for his opening remarks, for shedding a little more light on the ministry and what it's planning to do in the year ahead. I would also like to thank the staff who are here to help us through this process.
I too would like to make some comments about the competitiveness of British Columbia. As the minister is likely aware, there was a study commissioned by the Business Council of British Columbia. It was conducted by Price Waterhouse, and the results were made available in December 1992. The research framework was developed by Dr. Michael Porter of the Harvard Business School. He divided the issue of competitiveness into four areas: factor conditions, which are labour rates and availability of natural resources; demand conditions, such as market size and consumer preferences; related and supporting industries, such as quality of suppliers and sharing of technology -- something that is perhaps not talked about very often but is extremely important; and the fourth area, firm strategy, structure and rivalry, referring to domestic competitors and incentive systems.
The relative importance of these factors differed for each sector of the economy, but there are some common themes that did emerge. The research was conducted with 50 British Columbia companies, and 35 of them were organizations that employ over 11,500 people in B.C. and have sales revenues of over $3 billion in B.C. operations. They focused on those businesses that either operate in B.C. and in the U.S. or have considered that possibility. They were asked to compare British Columbia to the U.S. Pacific Northwest, particularly to the states of Washington and Oregon. As I said, the individual companies sometimes varied within a given sector. However, many common themes did emerge. I won't give you the survey's whole results section by section, but I will give you the conclusion: it is that British Columbia is perceived as not being as competitive with the Pacific Northwest as many people would like to believe. Many companies, such as those in value-added forest products manufacturing, electronics manufacturing and food processing have either considered moving, have moved or are moving some of their manufacturing operations south of the border. That is particularly true for the businesses that serve the U.S. market.
We've also just seen a recent study by the B.C. Central Credit Union saying that the B.C. economy managed real growth of just 2.2 percent in 1992 and that consumers and businesses are showing a reluctance to spend. It also predicts a 3 percent economic growth in the province this year and a growth rate of about 3.5 percent for 1994. The recovery we would have liked to have seen has been slowed by weak consumer confidence. Real per capita retail sales fell 1.9 percent. They're expected to fall a further 0.4 percent this year. Businesses have taken much the same cautious approach as consumers have. Real capital spending is expected to increase by just 2.7 percent in 1993 and 4.5 percent in 1994. So while we do recognize and we do want to encourage business and economic development in the province, we also have to be realistic about what we have to face and what we have to do to make that happen.
I know, with economic development and small business, that the ministry is familiar with some of the issues of taxation. These are some of the areas that we want to talk about a little as we go on. Corporate capital tax is, of course, one that I'm sure the minister is aware of as a huge problem, as are GST-PST harmonization, the parking tax, property tax, new fees and permits and so on. Government spending is also a huge concern to business in the province. Labour standards and the new labour code are a concern. Probably more important from the business point of view is the flexibility of unions. In the Price Waterhouse study on competitiveness with the U.S., the flexibility of our unions was one of the areas that was cited as being something that gave the U.S. much more of an edge. Government regulation is another area that business is, of course, concerned about, and the reduction of paperwork and regulations needs to be addressed.
One of the biggest areas, I think, is an industrial growth policy. We have to recharge our knowledge base, the basic science and technology that is the foundation of an advanced industrial society. I would like to see some of these things, and I talked a little bit about this in the throne speech debate. We really do need a policy direction that's aimed at improving overall economic performance. One of those components is removal of interprovincial trade barriers, and we'll be talking a little bit about that later on as well. Remove the impediments to being competitive in world markets and examine opportunities that come through our inherent strengths and our resources, industrial innovation and technology; encourage diversification in
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our economy and encourage entrepreneurs; fund job training and retraining with the help of industry and academia and government; maximize the benefits to British Columbia of the NAFTA; and improve the overall focus of opportunities in the Pacific Rim. All of those things have to come together under a coordinated industrial growth policy.
[10:45]
Research and development is another area that business in British Columbia and all over Canada is particularly interested in. We have maybe one head office, perhaps two. Ontario has 52 percent, Quebec has 32 percent and Alberta has 12 percent of the head offices. These usually are the major firms that have the most stable, high-paying jobs, and they're also typically the ones that invest in research and development activities.
Education is another area that's important to business, as I'm sure you know. Business needs entry-level workers to be computer-literate, numerically literate and able to communicate verbally and in written form. One of the things that I particularly would like to see the ministry consider is encouraging and formulating apprenticeship programs, perhaps along the same very successful lines as Germany has developed them over the years. Here in Canada we've relied on European tradesmen and craftsmen over the years to allow us the manufacturing and trades expertise that we have; but I think it's time we started to develop those skills in our own people. I would like to see more BCIT-type institutions and certainly technologists and technology training supported a little bit more, and I think the ministry could go a long way toward encouraging those kinds of policies and initiatives.
An Hon. Member: Spend more money?
L. Stephens: Just do your job.
The other area is the resolution of environment and land use issues; that's something that I know the ministry is concerned about, and business certainly is. It's getting to the point where it's causing some curtailment of activities because of the uncertainty over resolution of environment, land use and native land claims issues. Many businesses are reluctant to make any serious capital expenditures or expansions until they know what they have to deal with.
Taxation and creation of a positive climate in British Columbia compared to neighbouring jurisdictions has been an ongoing debate. The different studies that have come forward have shown many times that that is a concern of British Columbians. I'd like to know whether or not the tax zones in Washington State are something being considered for British Columbia.
Employment, the dilemma of the one-industry towns, the job protection commissioner -- we want to talk about those a little bit later on, too; access to venture capital and equity financing, and the labour law and employment standards as well.
So what we will do is really go through this in a workmanlike way, and we'll start with ministry operations. However, the critic for the Social Credit caucus would like to make some opening statements as well.
L. Fox: I'm pleased that that member is awake and was listening with great intent to the last speaker.
First of all, hon. Chair, let me say how disappointed I am in this minister and the actions of this ministry over the last year and a half. In my view, the minister of small business and industry should be an advocate for that sector of the economy and should represent their issues and their concerns within cabinet. But when we look at the actions of this government and its assault on small business in British Columbia through its taxation policies and its litany of increases to all the licensing costs, through the expansion of permits and fees that has been required by this government and through the expansion of the red tape that has been before small business, then obviously we do not have a minister that is an advocate for small business in this cabinet.
The minister had an excellent speech, and I commend him on it. The problem is that many of these initiatives are not possible as long as our taxation policies are taking away from the encouragement of investment. They're limiting the opportunity for small business to make a profit. I've been in small business most of my life, and I know there's one factor that causes an individual to put up his home, his life savings and every other object that he can into an investment and into a small business, and that motivation is to get a return on his investment. Well, the taxation policies of this government have limited that opportunity substantially. I could go on -- and I will through the estimates -- and talk about each one of them to some extent, because I don't believe that this minister understands the negative feeling from the business community.
Let's just review some of the reasons why I've called this minister, periodically across the floor, the minister of no development. There were not many items talked about in that speech. In fact, he had to talk about three or four initiatives two or three times in order to make it appear that something's happening. He talked about an initiative in Fort Nelson twice. He talked about Vanderhoof Pulp and Paper three times. He talked about cogeneration twice. We should just review these issues. Let's look at what happened to cogeneration in British Columbia and the opportunities for cogeneration in British Columbia. The first thing this government did, through B.C. Hydro, was limit the purchase of private energy and take away the initiative of these entrepreneurs and these corporations to develop those cogeneration plants. Yet on the other side we've seen the Minister of Environment and the Minister of Agriculture promote a burning policy that asks the farmers in the northern part of the province to use that particular waste as hog fuel. That's the problem with this government. There's no kind of correlation between the two arms of government to make something function and make it work.
It seems to me, in all my involvement in business and my involvement in local politics, that there's one consistent factor in economic development: number one on the agenda should be to protect the jobs that you
[ Page 6362 ]
have; look at what is causing you to lose the jobs that you presently have. This minister has not done that. We have lost jobs to Alberta. We've seen food producers move to Alberta and distribute the food to our grocery stores from Edmonton that was previously distributed from British Columbia. We've seen other businesses move to Washington because of a more favourable climate. Yet we haven't had any change in policy that would stop that leakage of jobs from British Columbia to other jurisdictions -- not one change in policy. What we've seen instead is more taxation, more limitations on the ability to do business in British Columbia. And then they stand up in the Legislature and speak about the fact that British Columbia has the fastest-growing economy in Canada.
That is a fact, but why is it? Let's examine why. It's a fact because we had taxation policies in British Columbia, prior to this government coming into power, that encouraged growth in B.C., and this government is still living on that wave. Let's look as well at some of the limiting factors to business and some of the things that are going to come back to confound the opportunities for business in this province.
We see spending. The government, even though it increased its taxation by almost $1 billion in this fiscal year, is still spending $3 billion over and above what it collects. That has caused the situation in British Columbia to compound. In the last two years we've seen our budget increase by $400 million, from $600 million to now $1 billion annually, paid out of our operating budget just to service our debt. And who does this government expect will pay that? The small business sector. It's obvious, because that's the sector that has been targeted.
The minister talked in his speech about new opportunities in small business for women. In the last ten years that sector of our public has been leading the small business development in British Columbia, and it has done an excellent job.
We also looked at several other aspects throughout the speech, and one of them was Vanderhoof Pulp and Paper. We've had some discussions, the minister and I, and I don't intend to get into this in any detail, because it's my understanding that the Vanderhoof Pulp and Paper proponents have now asked for a meeting with the Premier to see if they can't get this thing up and going.
But the first thing that we -- and the minister -- should be examining in economic development is what the limitations are to developing small business in British Columbia. If he were an advocate for small business, I am sure that if he went out and honestly looked at that, he would find out that the taxation policies, the labour policies -- Bill 84 and its encouragement of small business employees to unionize -- and the corporation capital tax are all issues limiting the opportunity to invest.
We hear the minister talk a lot about the environment in his speech. It's true that we, as a government, have to recognize that with whatever development we have, there's the up side and there's the down side. And we've obviously got to balance those issues out. It concerns me when the Minister of Small Business is standing up and protecting the environment rather than being an advocate for small business. We have a Minister of Environment. We have a large ministry there, charged with those responsibilities, and they should be the determining factor as to whether or not the down side is in fact looked after.
Interjection.
L. Fox: The member says I'm narrow-minded. Well, I don't believe so. I believe that when you are charged with the responsibility of a ministry over a sector of this province you have a duty to be an advocate of that particular sector, and I think that this minister has failed in that responsibility.
I look forward to the course of these estimates and letting this minister tell me and the people of British Columbia specifically how our economic development program has been set up, and how we're going to do away with the limiting factors that are stopping development. For instance, let's look at the mining sector. In 1992 one particular company spent over $60 million on exploration in this province.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Tax write-off.
[11:00]
L. Fox: The understanding of that minister suggests that that's a tax write-off. I'm disappointed. There are obviously some advantages to reinvesting in the resource sector. But they moved that investment to Chile, and this minister, along with the Premier, waved goodbye to it, and said: "Gee, we wish them well. Our jobs and that investment are leaving the province. Hey, that's great stuff." Last year that same corporation spent $5 million.... This year that whole small business opportunity.... That $60 million was spent in exploration communities such as Smithers, Rupert, Terrace and Prince George, and the East Kootenays; that $60 million went into small businesses in those regions of the province. Yet this minister says it was a write-off. That's the total of his understanding. I can understand that, because not too long ago in this House, in response to a question about the jobs being lost in the automotive sector because of this government's taxing policies in that particular sector, this minister suggested that those are aggressive employees and that they could find jobs elsewhere.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: How many have lost jobs?
L. Fox: We'll get into those specifics during the course of the estimates, and there is going to be a sufficient number if these taxation policies do not change. You cannot sustain a highly paid and trained workforce without the volume of sales that they are accustomed to in order to finance those particular employees. This minister should have fought the Finance minister on that issue. He should have had an understanding that that was going to cripple that segment of our economy and jeopardize many jobs in British Columbia. This minister should be playing that role, and he has not done it over the course of the past
[ Page 6363 ]
18 months. That's why I call this minister the minister of no development.
Hon. Chair, I thank you for the opportunity to make my opening comments, and I look forward to the estimates in order to get down to the specifics of some of my concerns.
C. Serwa: Dare I ask leave to make an introduction?
Leave granted.
C. Serwa: Joining us in the precinct in the public gallery this morning are 28 grade 7 students from the Kelowna Christian School. They are accompanied by five adults and Ms. Linda Riopel, their teacher. This is an independent school in Kelowna which emphasizes quality education, an excellent value system and a strong family unit. Would the House please make them welcome.
L. Stephens: I would like to talk about the ministry operations for a while. There has been a reduction in proposed expenditures in ministry operations of about $10 million.
We'll start with administration and support services and we'll just kind of work through the estimates in an orderly fashion. I will start with the FTEs in that particular division and also ask if there has been any use of contract people. I know the ministry does a lot of policy and planning and perhaps uses contracting-out from time to time, and I'd like to know whether or not that was the case in administration and support services.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: I'll try to pull together the information specifically. The FTEs are down 11 in this particular unit. We have tried very hard to achieve administrative efficiencies. Unlike a lot of ministries, we lump all of our administrative support services together rather that attach them to each program. Some of these people support some of the regional operations, but it's down 11.
On the question of contracts, just give me a minute.
L. Stephens: While we're waiting, perhaps you could talk a little about employment equity and the women's programs in the ministry. What do they consist of, and what is the cost, if there is an added cost, for employment equity and any women's programs that have been added?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: On employment equity, we have a person working in that field, but we don't have a cost figure attached to it. We're trying to make it part of all the management. We're looking at opportunities for women to be employed. Just some basic information: before the restructuring, 6.8 percent of senior management positions were held by women, and after restructuring it went to 20.6 percent, and from 3 percent to 7 percent.... So we're making some progress in that area.
To answer your question about professional services, the total in this particular unit is down 18.67 percent; we're down a total of $332,000 on the professional services side.
L. Stephens: Then $332,000 was spent on professional services...?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: The professional services component of administration and support services in 1992-93 was $1,781,394. In 1993-94 it's down to $1,448,894, a difference of $332,000. There's a reduction this year of 18 percent in professional services.
L. Stephens: On employment equity, if I understand it, the ministry has simply increased the number of senior management positions that are held by women. Has there been a corresponding move in the pay levels of the women in those positions? Are they the same as the men's? Is there a pay equity initiative as well?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: The pay equity program is government-wide. There has been a lifting on a lot of junior personnel, and I would be happy to get some of the details if you wanted to know how many. The senior positions are all paid government-wide salaries; there's absolutely no distinction and no bias. The more women there are in management positions, the more there are in the higher-paid positions. There's no difference for the work done. Women and men are paid equally.
L. Stephens: In the employment equity in the women's programs, is there a plan to have, as an example, 50 percent women in senior management as well as middle management areas, or a combination thereof?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Yes, we have, by regularizing some of the contract employees, many of whom were women.... In the restructuring process, where the jobs were open to competition, we allowed contractors to compete, partly to redress this imbalance. But no, we have not set quotas. We are generally aware that we ought to try to get more equality in the numbers of positions, so we look for every opportunity we can, other things being equal, to select women for positions.
L. Stephens: I'm encouraged to hear that the Ministry of Economic Development is doing what it can to support and encourage women to occupy these senior management posts.
What specifically are the women's programs you talk about? Are they programs to enable women to take advantage of the opportunities within the ministry in areas where women have not traditionally been assertive? Are there specific programs to encourage and help women become qualified and more confident when applying for some of those positions?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Most of the programs are government-wide. We make use of the Centre for Executive and Management Development and try to encourage women to attend to get the upgrading skills. I have to say early on, though, that it's very difficult. In
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fact, we've slowed down some of the processes of restructuring the ministry and advertising in order to get sufficient candidates -- to shake the bushes, as it were -- and encourage people. It always takes a little more time, because if you don't have an equal number of people coming in the bottom end, it's hard to get an equal number coming out the top. But we try to do that; quite a bit of management energy is expended on that.
The businesswomen's advocate, of course, works with businesses. That's a special position that we have. But we don't have programs, other than the person who works on those issues as a single person raising managers' consciousness. The most cost-effective way is to have managers take on, as a normal part of doing business, the question of trying to achieve more equality.
L. Stephens: I don't know whether this would fall under administration and support services or not, but I'd like to ask whether the ministry is receptive to value-for-money audits for all ministries having regulatory power pertaining to business activities. Would the ministry support value-for-money audits?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: We're accepting of and excited about value-for-money audits. It's the intent that we do a number of these internally; some of them are done externally. Sometimes we especially look at external agencies that we're funding. If we identify a problem area that we can't handle internally, we're prepared to go outside, but we are developing the capacity to do these internally in our corporate planning section. Since it's a new section -- it's only really been in existence since January -- we haven't conducted any, but we are positioning ourselves to do that. The intent is clear: as a part of the policy planning and normal budgeting for the ministry, we will look at the cost-effectiveness of programs, because clearly, if we can achieve cost savings in one area, we can either expand the program or start a new one. Cost savings is the easiest source of additional funding within government.
L. Stephens: The provincial auditor general made some recommendations concerning the value-for-money audits. Would the ministry be supportive in the implementation and monitoring of those recommendations for fiscal management reporting and accountability for all ministries?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: We have cooperated with the office of the comptroller general, and he has been discussing this with ministries. We're anxious to be able to prove that we're as efficient as we can be. So we have looked at his recommendations, and are working with him on improving the process within this ministry.
[11:15]
L. Stephens: I'd like to move on to the administration costs of B.C. House in Ottawa and the salaries and benefits for the agents general in Tokyo and in B.C. House, London, as to whether or not there have been any major differences, extraordinary expenditures, or anything of the like. Are they up or down?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: I'll be getting some of the figures. But as you know, B.C. Trade manages the external offices now. But the agents general whom you speak about, of which there are two, remain our responsibility, because by legislation they are ours. You want to know whether there has been an increase or a decrease. There's an 0.8 percent increase in the Ottawa office costs. The answer on those two is that it's an inflow and outflow from B.C. Trade. For us, it's a paper transaction. We will get you that information.
L. Stephens: We were talking a bit earlier about value-for-money audits. I wonder if the ministry might be contemplating doing an audit on B.C. House in Ottawa and the agent general in Tokyo.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: If there's to be any assessment of the cost-effectiveness of those offices, being that they are the responsibility of B.C. Trade, they would do them. These are questions that should come up during the Premier's estimates.
L. Stephens: So this ministry is responsible only for the administrative paying in and paying out of salaries and expenses. Is that pretty much what your ministry does in relation to these two areas?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Yes. Again, because of the statutes, it's just the salaries of the agents general, because they are under legislation attached to this ministry. So that's the reason. For us, it's an inflow and outflow, and it's really a bookkeeping function that we provide.
L. Stephens: How does the payment of travel expenses outside Canada relate to your ministry? Again, is that simply a bookkeeping operation? If it is, whose travel expenses do you keep track of?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: The reason we take care of expenses is that we have historically been the department that knows about what's acceptable with regard to travel costs, and we guide people generally involved in helping people plan their trips. It's only ministers' travel outside Canada that is in our budget. The approvals generally come through the Premier's office for travel outside, we're basically presented with the bill, and our people check to make sure the expenditures are in line. So ministers' total out-of-country travel costs for '92-93 were $84,275. I believe that's down considerably over the blue book. We were very careful about the amount of travel we did internationally.
L. Stephens: Does this include the allowances to members of the executive council, parliamentary secretaries and related staff?
[ Page 6365 ]
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Yes, all members of the executive council staff and ministers' staff and ministers. So it's the ministers' offices, any of the personnel in ministers' offices and the executive council staff. If there's somebody from intergovernmental relations, for example, or somebody on the Premier's staff, that would be covered under this budget.
L. Stephens: It doesn't cover the Premier and his office travel?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: A clarification on that. It includes the Premier and his direct personal staff. I'm informed it does not include the intergovernmental relations shot. It doesn't include all of the people working on the executive council staff, just the immediate staff of the minister -- the Premier in this case.
L. Stephens: It just includes the executive council, the parliamentary secretaries, the Premier's office and yours?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: It has to include the parliamentary secretaries, yes.
L. Stephens: Included in this section as well are grants and contributions provided to organizations to support special projects that encourage new investment market development. I know that last year we talked a bit about some of those areas, such as value-added technology, biotechnology, telecommunications, value-added wood products and specialized electronics. Are they the grants and contributions that you're talking about here, or is there another area that receives grants and contributions?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: May I just ask for a clarification. You're looking under which vote in this one particular...? You were on the administration section. Oh, you're still there.
One of the big amounts here is the capital funding for the Pavilion Corporation. That's where this shows up.
Interjection.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: The Pavilion Corporation? It has a capital funding grant of $1.42 million, and an operating grant of $3.29 million, for a total $4.7 million. That comes under this STOB 80, under grants.
L. Stephens: So it's the B.C. Pavilion Corporation that is the only recipient of grants or contributions under this division here? I see the minister nod yes, that's true.
Let's talk about the B.C. Pavilion Corporation for a little while. It was, I believe, $8.4 million that the corporation received last year. What is the total compensation that the B.C. Pavilion Corporation got for its losses this year?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: As the member may know, we have arranged for the Pavilion Corporation people to be here Thursday morning, if we want to get into some detail. I can answer in a general way if you wish, or we can delay. We didn't want the corporation people standing by for three days, so we arranged to have them here on Thursday morning. We were told that those arrangements had been made. Is it agreeable to wait? We are happy to try to give you the answers, but we didn't want them tied up for three days when they could be out there trying to earn money for the province.
L. Stephens: Yes, that will be fine.
We can go on to recoveries for cost-shared programs. Can the minister tell us a little bit more about that? What recoveries for cost-shared programs were received from the Crown corporations?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: Are you working through the blue book? Just so that we can follow....
Interjection.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: You're looking at the estimates -- the blue book.
The recoveries in that line come from the government agents recovery measure system -- GARMS. We recover funds from those agencies that we expend on their behalf through that system.
L. Stephens: Could you explain that system for me, please -- GARMS.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: GARMS is the government agents revenue management system. The government agents collect the $800 million on behalf of other ministries, and where necessary, we recover from them. I'll get some details on that.
L. Stephens: Would this be for the services that they provide in government agents offices on behalf of other ministries' programs?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: That is correct.
L. Stephens: Since we're talking about government agents, could the minister tell me a little bit more about the government agents' offices and how they have been restructured under the new reorganization? I imagine the programs are relatively the same, but are there any differences from what has been done in the past?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: The basic structure is intact. We removed the assistant government agents' offices in 17 cases and put that personnel into the new regional management units. Administrative and financial officers are working with our regional directors. We have taken some of the administrative function from the individual government agents' offices and placed them
[ Page 6366 ]
in the regional management units. There is no difference in the management in a government agent's office, with the exception that the manager really reports to a regional director in the regional management unit -- Kamloops, Prince George, etc. -- instead of reporting to a director down here in Victoria. So that's really the only change. In practice, there shouldn't be any significant difference in the way they are managed.
L. Stephens: Under community development we'll talk a bit more about the reorganization of those regional offices and so on, so we can wait until we get there.
The B.C. Investment Office was formed, I believe, last October or November in response to the Premier's Summit on Trade and Economic Opportunity. There has been some controversy over whether it's effective and whether it may be redundant because of B.C. Trade and your ministry. Could you tell us what this particular office does that yours and the B.C. Trade Corporation do not?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: The B.C. Investment Office is a focal point for investors, primarily overseas investors, who want to come to British Columbia and get first-line advice from the government through a single window. There are five people in that office, who were assigned from the industry and investment division. It was created as a fairly lean operation that could facilitate a number of key projects -- for example, in the regions. If a project needs some special handholding -- if there's a new investor from overseas who doesn't have a working relationship with people here in B.C. and needs some facilitation of contacts with other private sector or government people -- they can provide that.
The Investment Office is not there for every project; it's there to field projects. Some of them can be handled on a fairly routine basis by the investment division, where there are more personnel. But the Investment Office is really a focal point, because quite often there's misunderstanding of our rules and regulations and why they are there. Sometimes investors from overseas take offence at not being able to get through the provincial, municipal and federal maze that faces them.
[11:30]
In terms of effectiveness, it's my opinion that when set to work on projects, they are really effective. They have troubleshot in a number of cases where a government policy doesn't appear to meet the needs or appears to be in the way. They have gone in and tried to remove the impediments. These are very experienced people who have worked in the investment field for quite some time. As you know, it is headed by an experienced assistant deputy minister with both government and private sector experience. There is regular reporting to the Premier in the sense that we keep very clear lines of communication. If an external investor raises a matter with the Premier's office, we can get very quick action in trying to facilitate the project development.
B.C. Trade is primarily focused on export opportunities. If in the course of their work overseas they identify investors, they of course bring them here. Once they are here, the investors are handled by our ministry. So it's just a split function. We deal with investment, and they deal with the promotion of exports, in the most general sense. Of course, we can't have people always passing the buck; it has to be done in an effective way. So an investor who is identified overseas will be passed on to us by B.C. Trade. Alternatively, if we find investors who want to export and need export assistance, we turn them toward B.C. Trade and ask them to try to find export markets, export training or, in some cases, export loan guarantees that will assist them in assuring their market.
D. Streifel: Hon. Chair, I request leave to make an introduction.
Leave granted.
D. Streifel: It's my pleasure today to introduce two groups in the gallery who are visiting me. First of all, we have 27 grades 5 and 6 students from Valley Christian School, accompanied by Mr. J. Cann. In the opposite gallery is a group from Mission: 47 senior citizens, an old age pensioners group who have come to put their MLA on the spot today. I bid the House make them welcome.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: I'd like to add a little bit to what I said about the B.C. Investment Office. We have an advisory committee of private sector and senior government people attached to the B.C. Investment Office. B.C. Trade, for example, is represented on that investment board. They look at some of the people who have come to the government for assistance or facilitation and generally say: "This is a good project. We think the government should give it attention" Or they say: "This is a problem." It's a kind of reference group for the Investment Office, where there are people who have a responsibility to look at investment as a whole and at what some of the impediments to investment are. They have identified a number of projects that they want us to work on. B.C. Trade is there in the process. If there's a major export component, then we have B.C. Trade plugged right in. That's one place where it coordinates fairly effectively.
L. Stephens: I believe that one of the booklets describes the BCIO in terms of identification and support of key private sector projects. Perhaps the minister could tell us if this advisory board is part of the determination of those key private sector projects. If that's so, what would some of those projects be that have been ongoing and that this office has helped to identify and bring forward? I'll stop there. I have a few more....
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: I'll give you some examples. When the Investment Office advisory council meets, the basic information is presented to these people, some of it on a confidential basis because it's commercially confidential. There are projects that we have on our
[ Page 6367 ]
major project list. Most of them are regularly published, actually, by the Ministry of Finance. There are some that are not known publicly, that the investors request we keep confidential, but we try to disclose as much as we can.
To give an example of what might happen, a company might ask for government assistance, a loan guarantee, and the investment advisory board would look at it and give the government advice. In one case there was a project that was identified as not needing government assistance. The company and the proponents were new in developing large projects for export markets. They said that the private sector, because of the capital markets at this present time for that product, should be able to raise the money privately without any government assistance. In that case the company did go to the private sector for financing and was encouraged. But the partnering with investors and the comfort about the investment environment and some of the regulations and environmental controls in B.C. were facilitated in this case by the Premier on his trip to Asia, along with the B.C. Investment Office. He provided a service to the companies in getting the capital investor together with the project proponent.
Another example we can give you was the Gwaii trust. We assisted the Queen Charlotte Islanders in realizing some of the benefits of the South Moresby agreement, whereby $38 million was set aside. We helped negotiate an interim trust agreement so the federal government would flow $5 million in this last fiscal year. We were setting up a development corporation there and knowledge was required that wasn't resident in the islands. The B.C. Investment Office had the experience and therefore facilitated this, because it was a major pool of capital available to one of the regions. So that was one project.
The Cominco smelter is a very big project, in a very difficult world trading environment, with difficult commodity prices and countervail problems with any form of assistance that's offered on a subsidized basis. We have to find a commercial arrangement that's within the international trade laws. Again, the B.C. Investment Office is working on the negotiations with Cominco in trying to establish a clear future for Trail.
The Tod Mountain ski resort was facilitated, and an agreement was achieved on land arrangements for the master development plan. The Nippon Cable Co. is going to invest some $50 million or more. That, again, was facilitated between the Japanese investors and the government. There was some policy facilitation there.
Another project that they're working on is the electronics technology park. This project is the result of a feasibility study that our industry division did. They identified the need, did the feasibility study and then shopped it around. That's for the lower mainland area. Presently they're looking for potential investors in B.C. and Asia. Those projects would have cleared the advisory board. There are others I could give. At any given time there are half a dozen projects that need facilitation, and the office provides it.
L. Stephens: I gather, then, that the office is both passive and proactive. They help facilitate inquiries that come to them, and they also go out looking for investment in the province. It sounds like they don't have a specific focus but do all kinds of investment; they don't have a particular area.
Going back to what we were talking about, at the Premier's summit a lot of focus was put on the developing technologies: biotechnologies, telecommunications, high-tech and specialized electronics. It was my understanding that this office would concentrate primarily on those areas to bring investment into the province to help facilitate the establishment and growth of these higher-technology industries. Is that true, or is there another area of your ministry that does this work for high-technology industry?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: The B.C. Investment Office has a key word, and that's strategic. Strategic projects can be essential projects to a sector or a region. In other words, we try to find a project that's critical to the developing economy of a particular region. So we try to have a regional distribution. I mentioned the one in the Queen Charlottes; they're working on projects in the Nechako area; they're working on projects in the northeast and the southeast. The regions are very important. Sometimes these projects, because of the commodity prices, aren't the easiest ones to get up and running.
You referred to the advanced technologies -- for example, biotechnology. There are no biotechnology projects on the lists at the present time that I think are cleared for top priority. The industry and investment division of the ministry itself handles the major sectors for which no other government agency is responsible. For example, the information technologies and the knowledge-based industries are to a large extent handled through our ministry, although that one is in conjunction with Advanced Education. They're not trying to be all things to all people, but if, for example, there was a project in biotechnology that looked like it was right for B.C., or if B.C. needed it as a complement to other activities in that area, then they would concentrate on that.
Our assistance to projects really focuses on major projects. They're generally pretty large, because smaller projects can be facilitated much more easily.
L. Stephens: In relation to that, is there a set of criteria? Does the industry have to create X number of jobs? I'm sure that's one of the criteria that would be used. You mentioned regionalization. Is it the intention to place industries in regions? Is there some kind of an overall theme or plan there for jobs, regionalization, economic diversification and particular industries that we want to promote in British Columbia?
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: One of the reasons that we have an advisory council is to know what projects are probable as well as desirable, and necessary in some cases. The economic strategy of the province, as I said in my opening, is something for which there's no one book you can point to and say: "Look, here are the criteria and the exact targets." We have to be flexible, because as we go through the restructuring, sometimes things
[ Page 6368 ]
change. For example, world markets are changing in the case of some types of wood products. What becomes a strategic project in any one region may change through time. If we said that we're going to emphasize pulp and paper, or something like that, two or three years from now we could find that that's not a strategic project in a particular region; some other value-added wood product might be important.
[11:45]
In terms of tight criteria, first of all, they have to be commercially viable. That's obvious. We are trying to nudge projects in the direction of the regions if we can. But you can't redirect projects for which there's no natural competitive advantage in a region. We are trying to use the thrust of paying attention to the regions. We're trying to reflect that in everything any government operation does, and the B.C. Investment Office is the same. That's why, in the literature we describe it in, we have stated that they are strategic in that they may be important to some sectors or to certain regions. I think all regions have a project that they're actively working on at the top level, and there are one, two or three behind each of those whose time hasn't come yet simply because they're not ready. But we're trying to be realistic in terms of what they can do.
Just to identify some things that are top priorities and that do reflect.... A steel mill proposal is being examined, and there is a possibility that it could be located in the Kootenays. The advisory committee suggested we do a feasibility study, because the industry itself, the potential investors, are really committed to tidewater. The problem with a lot of advanced manufacturing is that they want to be on tidewater. So we asked: "What would it take to get you to relocate?" They said, of course, that if we gave them some major incentive they'd like that. But that would be an ongoing subsidy, and it wouldn't be desirable. But they said, "If you conduct the feasibility or share in the feasibility cost to look at a regional site, we will consider that site," so we got them to consider the Kootenays as a site for this particular project. That's the kind of work they do.
We are looking at value-added in all the mineral areas. If we go upscale in our production, that is obviously important to the economy of B.C. You can easily describe the area in which they're working. Those are the areas that have potential growth or those areas where we need some stabilization. I will use the example of Cominco. They want to stabilize through getting appropriate technology that can maintain that community, so it's a strategic regional project. Each region has certain activities that need attention.
L. Stephens: I was interested to hear you raise Cominco and that this office is involved in there too. Could you tell us a little bit about what they're doing in Trail at the Cominco facility, how they are going to initiate more development -- I know the job protection commissioner is involved at Cominco -- and whether or not there has been any resolution or movement there? Perhaps you could tell us what the Investment Office is doing.
Hon. D. Zirnhelt: The hour is late, and I would just like to respond quickly to the member.
In the case of Cominco, you know there was a special job protection commissioner who went in and recommended a number of contributions from the various parties involved: suppliers, provincial and local governments and the company. The job protection commissioner is continuing to try to negotiate an economic plan where all parties agree. The B.C. Investment Office is playing a role partly because the person handling that was involved in the issue beforehand and has expertise in that area. It was also identified as a strategic project. Rather than hand it over to somebody else who might have been able to do it, when we set up the office we said that we would continue to work on any projects that the personnel were working on. It turns out that those were strategic projects, in any event.
The government and B.C. Hydro together are negotiating with Cominco to purchase power 20 years or so down the road and pay a present value for that power so that Cominco can inject it into their operations. We're negotiating a way to pay a negotiated price on a commercial basis. As you can appreciate, there isn't a lot of market setting the price for power, especially 20 years out, so we have to negotiate what that present value is. That then becomes a contribution that the provincial government makes to the development of an economic plan. If a deal can be cut on the surplus power that Cominco has, then Cominco is in a better financial position to operate.
With that, Mr. Chair, I'd like to move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Motion approved.
The House resumed; the Speaker in the chair.
Committee of Supply B, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.
Committee of Supply A, having reported resolutions, was granted leave to sit again.
Hon. D. Marzari: By agreement, the summary debate for the Attorney General will be after question period, hon. Speaker.
Hon. D. Marzari moved adjournment of the House.
Motion approved.
The House adjourned at 11:51 a.m
[ Page 6369 ]
The House in Committee of Supply A; D. Streifel in the chair.
The Committee met at 10:12 a.m.
ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF ATTORNEY GENERAL
(continued)
On vote 19: minister's office, $419,486 (continued).
C. Serwa: I have a series of questions on a number of different issues, so it will be a little bit random and spread all over the map. Hopefully, we'll be able to wind up the Attorney General's estimates sometime today, perhaps this morning. That brings a smile to the Attorney General, which is nice on a bright day.
Last year the Attorney General introduced the Infants Act. It has raised quite a storm of controversy. I recognize it relates more to the Ministry of Health; nevertheless the Attorney General introduced the Infants Act through his miscellaneous statutes act. At the time that act was introduced, the Attorney General indicated that we were treating two classes of infants in different ways and that that wouldn't stand the test of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. As a direct result of that, the Infants Act was brought in so that we treated all infants in a similar manner, as under the British common law system, where in law, unless something is specifically prohibited, then it is in fact allowed -- by default, I suppose.
I think that I'm correct in my statements so far. The question I want to ask the Attorney General is this: is his concern with respect to treating different classes of infants as consistent today as it was when he introduced the Infants Act?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I don't know the answer to that question. I'll wait for the second question and see what the setup is before I get into that one.
In respect of the Infants Act, I'm sure members know that it's the responsibility of the Ministry of Health. I only shepherded the legislation through as part of the miscellaneous statutes bill. If the member has a more direct question in terms of some other issue that is in my responsibility, I'd be quite happy to try to answer.
C. Serwa: The question relates to the way the Infants Act amendment was introduced, and the statement that we were treating two classes of infants in different manners, which was inappropriate. Does the Attorney General still consider it inappropriate to treat infants in two separate manners under legislation?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Yes, I do think it's inappropriate.
C. Serwa: On that basis, then, we'll leave the Infants Act and go on to the Young Offenders Act. Here we were treating infants under criminal law in two different ways. If we had trouble justifying, under the statutes of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, that differential for medical health purposes, why then do we have what appears to be a dual standard with the Young Offenders Act? This is another area of substantial and significant concern. I recognize that it's a federal issue, nevertheless the Attorney General is the chief lawmaker in the province, and I would like him to respond to that question.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I've got two answers to that question. The first is that the member should run in the federal election this fall and ask Mr. Blais -- if he is returned as Justice minister -- why the federal Parliament has chosen ages 12 to 17 inclusive.
Secondly, the Charter allows for -- I can't pull the precise wording out of my head -- reasonable.... Let me back up and do it in my own language. The Charter essentially doesn't allow for discrimination based on age, unless there is a reasonable cause for making that kind of limitation. The argument on the Young Offenders Act would be that it is reasonable to pick the age 12 as a starting point for inclusion under that legislation. That is presumably the way the Charter would apply in that case.
C. Serwa: For me as a layperson, it always seems difficult when we can pick and choose areas of concern and differential. It would appear to me that in the tack taken under the Infants Act, which raised this storm of controversy out there in spite of its intentions, some form of consistency should be applied so that we treat all infants similarly under legislation throughout Canada and the province of British Columbia. That was one of the areas I wasn't too happy with or confident that we were being consistent in the legislative process.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Let me take a moment philosophically on this point. In respect of medical treatment provided for minors, the rule in place now is essentially that if the minor, together with the health professional, is able to make an informed decision, then the procedure can go ahead. The decision is clearly going to be, in almost all instances, better informed at ages 16, 17 and 18, than it is at age three, four and five -- to pick some ages. The rights that accrue to the minor increase with age as the minor moves towards adulthood and an ability to make a reasoned and informed judgment in concert. So that's how the regime of rights applies under that legislation.
As far as the Young Offenders Act is concerned, because we're dealing with a very different kind of issue -- with violations of the Criminal Code -- there was an arbitrary decision to pick age 12. Parliament made that choice, and within the Charter of Rights that is an allowable option for parliament. It can be challenged, and theoretically it could be overthrown. My suspicion is that the courts would say that it's reasonable to pick an arbitrary age. I'm just thinking out loud here, but if a 14-year-old didn't know whether or
[ Page 6370 ]
not they were covered by the Young Offenders Act, it would be problematic. At least in a doctor's office you can have a discussion and it's a very different situation than if you are committing a criminal offence and you don't know whether you are covered by the legislation or not. Clearly you have to have an arbitrary age in respect of criminal law. I may not have expressed that very well, but I think it's an obvious point.
C. Serwa: Thank you very much for the explanation. I won't continue on that tack. It seems to me that if we consider the infants capable of accepting objective information and making an informed, competent decision, then they should also be responsible for their actions. At the present time it appears that they are not, and I don't think that the public is happy about that.
I'd like to switch to another topic: the issue of tree-spiking. We have legislation on the books with respect to that. The Attorney General does not seem to have taken a firm stand on what the effect of tree-spiking will be. He has not come out with a public pronouncement with respect to that. The concern that I have is the area of civil disobedience and whether we actually prosecute someone for encouraging the spiking of trees or we ask them cease and desist. If one individual spikes trees, and we happen to apprehend him, what do we do? And what if 50 or 100 individuals go out and symbolically hammer spikes into trees? What will the Attorney General's position be with respect to the civil disobedience act and the fact that it is now a statute in British Columbia law? What type of action will the Attorney General take?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: First of all, in respect of alleged or perceived criminal wrongdoing, the police, as the member knows, will take whatever action is required. They will present their information to the criminal justice branch, and the normal course of action in respect of alleged criminal wrongdoing will follow -- whether it's tree-spiking or any other alleged criminal activity.
We also have the provisions of the Forest Act, which were enacted a few years ago. Similarly, the process will be in place. The system we have through the police and the Crown will make determinations about charges.
In respect of civil disobedience, we canvassed that last week. Again, our policy is to move carefully in a measured way, recognizing that illegal activities cannot be countenanced. It is often the case that moving within minutes of a blockade may not be as wise as moving after some discussion to get a peaceful resolution to the issue and following an opportunity to spend some time considering whether there are any other remedies to the perceived problem. So the general response of both the RCMP and the other police forces in this province is to take a measured response and clearly to act in the public interests in order to ensure that the law is being obeyed.
I have said this clearly in the past: we will not allow communities to be isolated. We will not allow workers not be able to go to work as a result of civil disobedience. In some instances, because of the particular nature of the situation, it may be that the remedy won't be found within minutes, or even within hours in some cases, and there may be cases where it takes a few days. That's a decision that I don't make politically; the decision is made by the police force who have the authority to deal with the situation.
C. Serwa: It certainly is a very serious issue in the province at the present time. I understand too that the enforcement section works to a degree under the direction of the Attorney General, with instructions. I wonder if the Attorney General would confirm that whether it's one individual apprehended, or 50 or 100 individuals, the rule of law and order in fact will be followed. I appreciate the concern with the sensitivity of the issue, but I also appreciate the fact that we cannot have the differential in the treatment dependent on the number of individuals involved in this most serious event that could take the life of a millworker, for example, or a faller working in the forest.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The first point to make is that if there is an obvious and direct violation of the Criminal Code by an individual or a group of individuals, the police will move quickly and will go through their normal process very quickly. If there is what is characterized as civil disobedience -- people standing on a road, not doing damage to property, not creating damage to individuals, no assault or that kind of issue, then the process may move a little more slowly. That's the kind of situation where a measured response would occur.
I think it's important to know that our policy requires that each event will be investigated separately, and will be assessed for appropriate action by the police and Crown counsel. Crown counsel has specially trained prosecutors in place available to conduct criminal contempt proceedings. We also, because of the nature of these cases, generally have the decisions reviewed by the executive Crown counsel within the criminal justice branch. So it's raised to a fairly high level for decision-making.
C. Serwa: I would like to move to another topic involving firearms and the federal bill that restricts the number of cartridges in a clip. I talked to the Attorney General on this matter some time ago. The matter was brought to me, I guess, by the International Practical Shooters Confederation, which is governed in competition by international regulation. There was an early scheduled date, apparently, for the incorporation of the federal legislation. Then there was a delay, apparently -- I think until the end of July, perhaps, or July 1 -- with respect to some sort of an interprovincial jurisdiction coming up with some legislation or regulations consistent throughout Canada.
This form of competition involving semi-automatic handguns is popular and organized all over the world. If they are not allowed to use the clips -- and I'm not certain what the capacity of these clips is, whether they're 20 rounds or something -- then they will not be able to participate on an equitable basis in international competition. Perhaps the minister could advise me on the status of that.
[ Page 6371 ]
Hon. C. Gabelmann: July 1 still appears to be the date, at least publicly, that the regulations are to be enacted. The member is correct; it was delayed from January 1. There are continuing discussions between provinces and the federal government about this provision. I understand there are indications now that the date may be delayed yet again. The ministers' meeting next week in Quebec City will have this issue up for discussion. I know there's a concern on the part of some that the rules and regulations should be uniform across the country, so that people competing in one province know what the rules are when they're going to another province for competition.
The more I think about this issue, my own view is that the federal Parliament made a mistake when it devolved the power to the provinces. I think they have control of the issue and in fact should be making that decision.
[10:30]
C. Serwa: That covers that issue, and I think the Attorney General has addressed it quite well.
I didn't have an opportunity the other day when one of my colleagues, the member for Abbotsford, brought up the matter of wide loads -- the double-wide trailers and I think the 16-foot widths. It appears to me, with the improvement in the standard of roads, that certain roads could be designated for the transport of these wide trailers at specified times of the year. It may be when we're away from peak traffic flow and from hazardous conditions; it may be in the springtime or the fall. The Yellowhead Highway, for example, has wide shoulders. We have other roads which are four-lane roads which could carry the 16-foot-wide units at times when we don't have peak traffic flows. It appears to me that when we're looking for the opportunity for affordable housing, we're going to have to turn more and more to manufactured homes. There is considerable pressure for the move towards 16-foot-wide models.
In the discussion that took place earlier here in the Attorney General estimates, there was certainly a lack of support; but it seems to me that it is somewhat unrealistic. Given the improvement in the lane and road widths, we should be able to specify designated routes at certain times of the year that would facilitate the movement of these particular units.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Last week I indicated a willingness to have the superintendent of motor vehicles meet with MLAs who were concerned about this issue. I gather that process has already started, and I'm prepared to have that continue with whichever MLAs want to pursue it with the superintendent. It has been and still is our position that we will not designate the 16-foot-wide, but as indicated last week -- and I'll just repeat now -- I'm prepared to have further discussions continue on the subject.
C. Serwa: I welcome that opportunity and will certainly take the advantage of it. I appreciate that gesture of goodwill and openness.
The next topic I would like to go to deals with overweight permits. Overweight permits with respect to rubber-tired construction equipment. In this specific instance it's a 966D cat front-end loader. The constituent has had some activity at a mobile weigh scale, and he has been given a citation for being overweight with a 966D loader.
I've operated these machines, and I am fairly knowledgeable about the construction industry. The reality is the concern with overweight has to do a great deal with the type of load on the road surface and the deterioration of our highway system, and that's why there is the regulation for overweight. The reality also is that the ground pressure of a 966D is really very insignificant because of its six-foot-diameter tire, its relatively low pressure, its tread is about 30 inches wide and its footprint is actually on the ground. So when you're talking about overweight, there is a tremendous difference between overweight on a truck with high-pressure tires, even on a tandem bogie and the 966D loader. If we are really concerned about overweight, we cannot be concerned about a rubber-tired loader. Why is this being incorporated? Apparently it has always been in the legislation, and it is only now actively being pursued by some representatives of the Attorney General.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Well, hon. Chair, we've only had a year and a half to fix all the sins of the previous government. I must say this has been on the priority list, but it hasn't quite been high enough to have been resolved. I don't know the specific issue in any detail at all. It makes sense that what matters in respect of loads is the weight per square inch on the road as opposed to the weight of the vehicle, and so what matters obviously is the size of the tires and all of that. I think that the best thing we can do with that issue, given that it is so specific, is ask the member, on behalf of his constituent or constituents, to talk directly to the superintendent to see if there is a resolution to the issue. And if that's not satisfactory, then raise it with me again at another opportunity.
C. Serwa: It was certainly nice to have a break in the estimates. It's a rather warm solid reception that we're having this morning, and we're making good positive gains. I really appreciate that type of consideration, because it doesn't make any rational sense and perhaps that's why it wasn't enforced. Obviously there was some intent and somehow it was captured, perhaps by regulation -- why or how, I really don't know. I appreciate that the AG has only had one and a half years to rectify a number if ills, as he said. I do know that it wasn't enforced until very recently. I suspect that because of the pressures of finding revenue sources, someone perhaps became a little overzealous and missed the point of the whole exercise.
Another issue within the purview of the office of the Attorney General is orders-in-council by cabinet -- the executive branch of government. Apparently the auditor general's report found 49 instances of improper filing of orders-in-council with respect to 389 government appointments. What steps does the minister
[ Page 6372 ]
intend to take to improve scrutiny of orders-in-council, so that they comply?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I was just having a look at the annual report of the auditor general. The member is correct: the auditor general suggested that some of the orders were not complete in that respect. I think I could say, in general terms, that I agree. We have already begun the process. On receipt of the report, the process for dealing with orders-in-council began to change. On page 65 the auditor general suggests that for 49 of the 389 appointments, the legislative requirements for authorization of remuneration were not met. That's a clear problem. Subsequent to this report, I think we have met that requirement with all of the orders that have been processed. It's our intention to ensure that we do that in the future.
A. Warnke: One question that I want to pose this morning is actually a follow-up to a question that was posed to the Attorney General last week. I suppose that is either an advantage or a disadvantage for either or both of us when estimates go over various days. If I understood the answer given by the Attorney General -- when I inquired about the establishment of an AirCare facility in Burnaby next to Royal Oak College -- he said that there was an environmental study that was embarked on. It illustrated that the environmental impact in terms of air quality -- on students not only studying at Royal Oak College but residing there as well, in the student dormitories -- generally was not really out of proportion to air quality that we see in other parts of Burnaby or the greater Vancouver area.
Maybe the Attorney General has received a press release; there was a press release by Royal Oak College on May 17 which said:
"That preliminary environmental review" -- and I believe this is what the Attorney General is referring to -- "was challenged by the Royal Oak College's environmental expert, after which the provincial government put operation of the inspection centre on hold and appointed Concorde Environmental to review the findings of both experts."
Hon. Chair, Concord Environmental put forward three conclusions:
"(1) the predicted deterioration in air quality at the college from the proposed Burnaby inspection centre operation was understated by the developer's expert; (2) the developer's expert did not use the worst-case conditions that might occur at the site; and (3) the air emissions from the Burnaby AirCare centre alone could be sufficient to exceed the Environment Canada maximum acceptable ambient objective, and when the existing ambient carbon monoxide concentrations are also considered in exceedence of the Environment Canada air quality objective is more likely.
Given those conclusions by Concord Environmental, it impresses me that what the Attorney General had put forward last week was maybe based on the view of the developer and their conduct of environmental standard as opposed to some of the conclusions by Concord Environmental.
I wonder if the Attorney General has had a chance to take into account some of the conclusions by Concord Environmental, and if he could summarize his perspective as to the impact of this particular set of conclusions.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Let me read from Concord's report to us. I'll read one sentence in the conclusion: "Based on available information, air quality in the general area would remain in the very-good-to-good ranges with very little change caused by the facility." That's in the summary document entitled "Overall Conclusion."
The other report is by Sierra, and it reaches similar conclusions. They say that the simple procedure -- I'm paraphrasing here -- of motorists shutting off their engines while they are waiting, if there are more than three or four vehicles, would cut emissions by more than 50 percent. That would then "eliminate any concern about the inspection centre causing exposure to levels exceeding the maximum desirable air quality objectives."
We've got two reports, both of which say that there is no problem with the air quality in and around that testing station. The approvals were given by the municipality. We see no reason to change course.
A. Warnke: Also, since we started estimates, the college has expressed its interpretation of why the ministry has sort of contravened its own guidelines, suggesting that the AirCare station was placed very close -- within ten metres or something like that -- of a college. The college essentially is arguing that the quibble about whether it's elementary or secondary is neither here nor there, given that students reside there -- and I'm not exactly sure what the breakdown of the students is. Their claim, at any rate, is that they fall in the category of contravening their own guidelines. Just to clear the record, because obviously the Attorney General knows there is some concern publicly expressed by the college, perhaps the Attorney General could once again respond to that kind of accusation.
[10:45]
Hon. C. Gabelmann: There were guidelines in respect of traffic, public schools and communities. There was a desire not to have increased traffic flow around schools if it could be avoided -- they're simply guidelines -- so that children crossing on the way to school or home wouldn't be impacted negatively because of traffic flows by an AirCare station beside the school. That objective and those guidelines have been met, I think, in all instances where centres are located. That's not at issue here.
The issue here is around air quality in a facility adjacent to a dormitory. When that concern was first expressed I took it seriously. Clearly, if there are air-quality levels in and around a dormitory that are excessive, inappropriate, unwarranted or beyond reasonable levels, then that's something we should try to avoid. The suggestions were made that this was a problem. We took it seriously. We asked for independent advice on the question, and reports have come back that there's no problem.
[ Page 6373 ]
A. Warnke: Now perhaps to explore the downside of what happens when estimates are spread over and we're distracted by other things, I believe the hon. member for Langley had raised several issues with regard to the family maintenance enforcement program. Since our exploration here in the estimates, I've also received some input as to the effect of the family maintenance enforcement programs. Perhaps I'll express it this way: the argument has been put forward that $100 million has been spent on legal aid services while only $6.5 million was spent on the family maintenance enforcement program, and therefore there's some concern as to the discrepancies, and that sort of thing. I'm not sure of the accuracy.
For the record, I have some very short questions that might solve some of the problems that some of the people are expressing. I'll keep them very short, and maybe we can deal with any problems this way. They're very straightforward technical kinds of questions. But at least we will have dealt with them, and I think that might help all the way around.
The first question I have is: how much is the Ministry of Attorney General proposing to spend to run the family maintenance enforcement program this year? If the Attorney General has answered that question -- I haven't had a chance to review the Blues in detail; I've just had a quick look -- I apologize if in fact one or some of these five have been answered before. If he could reply on that first question, then I'll just run through some of the others seriatim.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: It's $7.37 million, which is an increase of 12 percent.
A. Warnke: The argument is that 62 percent of single-parent families in B.C. receive social assistance, and therefore what I would like to ask of the Attorney General is how much the B.C. government is spending on social assistance payments to these families? I hope the minister can respond to that; if not, I understand. If it falls within the purview of another ministry, I understand that.
Also, how can the government rationalize the expenditure -- so little, some have suggested -- on non-custodial parents supporting their children? How would the Attorney General respond to that?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I'm not entirely clear from the member's question what the drift is. If the member is suggesting that we should be spending more money on trying to ensure that payments to their families are made -- by fathers, generally -- and that FMEP should be beefed up to make sure that those collections are made, I agree. We are in the process -- as I think I indicated earlier in these estimates -- of evaluating FMEP and how it works and seeing whether there are other ways in which we could make it more effective. It is more effective than it used to be. It has more budget being allocated to it this year -- as I indicated a minute ago -- and the results are improving. If the member's point is that we could do better, I agree. We are looking at ways of improving that program.
A. Warnke: Another one, sort of a bullet, is: how much support money is owing to welfare recipients enrolled in the family maintenance enforcement program?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I don't have that information at hand. I will endeavour to get the information to the member by way of correspondence as soon as I can.
A. Warnke: I understand completely, and I want to thank the Attorney General for offering that. I look forward to it.
Just another couple of quick questions. This is going to be awkward. Essentially, how much allocation of moneys is saved -- this may be difficult -- by enforcing support orders of welfare recipients, assuming that spending money on enforcement is cost-effective?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: This is an area on which, again, I don't have information at hand. A lot of it would be information we would have to coordinate with Social Services to come up with an answer. To the best of our ability to do that, we will communicate that information in writing to the member.
A. Warnke: Thank you once again, minister. Lastly, how much is the government proposing to spend on legal aid services? I should know that as well, because it's just...
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The total amount budgeted this year for legal aid is $85 million, and it's in the estimates. I should say in response to an earlier reference that the member made about family law versus criminal law in legal aid that the number of criminal cases in this past fiscal year was about 44,500 and the number of family cases was about 21,500. The interesting statistic is the increase in the last six years. I'm going to do it this way: since 1986-87, through until this past fiscal year, the increase in family cases has been 107 percent, and the increase in criminal cases has been 55 percent. So the trend is toward more legal aid for family -- a trend which I very definitely encourage.
K. Jones: I'd like to explore further the area with regard to the family maintenance enforcement program. It's an area that has come to my attention through constituents' inquiries and concerns.
I wonder if the Attorney General could indicate whether he has any indication of the number of persons who might be falling into this category. I'd like to describe a situation where a spouse withholds the cashing of the cheques in order to claim that they didn't receive the cheques from the other spouse, and therefore they are attempting to force the other person to go onto the family maintenance program.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I'm sure I don't even have to look around to know that I wouldn't be able to answer that question in that form. If there is a suggestion that has happened in a particular case, I'd welcome the member dropping me a note about it.
[ Page 6374 ]
That's not an issue that has been drawn to my attention before.
K. Jones: The case went to a court situation where the enforcement order was cancelled. It was proven to be not valid because the person was able to prove that the cheques had been issued to the spouse. Therefore this person holds an order of the court that states that the person is making their payments on a regular basis.
This January, once again there was a withholding of cheques, and the spouse requested that the other person be placed on the maintenance program -- or else they were automatically placed on the program -- and the person doesn't understand why. There seems to be an attempt to force the person onto this maintenance program for some unjustified reason. Is there some benefit to spouses to have those persons on the maintenance program when they're making regular payments?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: One of the things that I can't do productively and wouldn't do in this forum is to try and get into the issues in and around a particular case. First of all, in being fair to the member, I don't have all the facts. I have a version that the member has given me, and one of the things I've learned in 18 years of doing this job is that one never gets all the facts until one has heard from all sides. To reach early conclusions about an issue, without knowing exactly what all the facts are, is not very wise. So I'm not going to get into the details of that particular issue.
I encourage the member to talk to the director of the family maintenance program and see if there's a policy issue that does arise that's worth pursuing out of his discussions with the director. If there is a policy decision that seems to be needed and is not in place, then I'll be prepared to look at it at that point.
[11:00]
K. Jones: This seems to be the impression that I got from several people who have approached us -- that there is some feminist agenda in the enforcement program that wants to bring prosecution against males in a dispute over custody, and that a process seems to be in place to get people on this just to have some means of putting a hammer over their heads, even when they are complying and have a good payment process in place. It is just another lever that's being used in the unfortunate situation where couples -- maybe even ministry persons -- put their own agendas into the enforcement of a program that has not been set up with that intention. They're utilizing it for their own agendas. Could the minister give us some indication as to whether he is monitoring that aspect of it?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The FME program is designed to ensure that people who do not pay maintenance do in fact, pay. That is where the time and effort is spent, and I can assure the member that no ministry people would be embarked on any other purpose. Aside from that, I don't know what more I can say.
K. Jones: I would like to explore another area. Could the minister tell us what the Metrotown Expressway is?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I think that is the fast licensing program of the motor vehicle branch.
K. Jones: I understand it is advertised in its program as the fastest way to get your licence renewed. I understand there is also one in Coquitlam. Is that correct?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I haven't seen the advertisements. If the member says it is, then no doubt it is.
K. Jones: I'm just wondering if the minister is aware that it is such a fast program that no eye tests are done in the program. I have an example of a young person who was in for renewal and was told to sign on the form. The person said: "Where is the pen?" They were told it was right there beside the person. The person then took it and signed, and then the person was asked to stand on the footprints for the photo. This person turned around and asked where the footprints were. They couldn't see the footprints, and the person was guided to where the footprints were. They went over and got their picture taken. The licensing process continued, and the licence was renewed. That is one example.
There was a case of an elderly couple being pulled over by the RCMP in the White Rock area because the car was seen to be weaving. It was an interesting situation. The husband, who was the driver, was licensed, but they found out to their surprise that he was legally blind. The spouse was not licensed but was providing the directions -- speed up, slow down, turn right, turn left. It was good teamwork -- a real couple together. But I think it's a very dangerous situation that is not being monitored within your licensing process, and it certainly scares the daylights out of all of us who are travelling on the roads in these circumstances.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: If the member didn't report these incidents to the superintendent of motor vehicles when he first learned of them, he was being irresponsible. If any citizen in this province is aware of an individual who is driving, apparently in a situation where that person should not be driving, then that citizen, wherever he or she lives, should be reporting that fact to the superintendent of motor vehicles. I think the member is irresponsible for not having done that and for perhaps allowing those drivers to have stayed on the road a day or two or maybe even longer -- I don't know how long he's had this information -- than they should otherwise have been on the road. That's my first comment, and I mean that seriously.
Secondly, in respect of the eye test, all first-time drivers go through an eye test -- all of them. Those of us who renew our licences don't necessarily, unless there is a reason to do so. So if this person who the member describes in the first instance was given a driver's licence for the first time without an eye test,
[ Page 6375 ]
that too should have been drawn to the attention of the superintendent. If the member feels it's beneath him to go to the superintendent, he should draw my attention to it and I will relay it to the superintendent.
K. Jones: I'm very concerned that the Attorney General is trying to cast aspersions upon the person who's bringing forward a concern in this House as to the minister's inability to maintain his own operation, and trying to put the blame on a member of this House who is just asking a question about procedures that were documented. I shared that the minister would be having some liaison between the RCMP and his motor vehicle people, because the elderly couple I was describing were pulled over by the RCMP. Surely you would have taken action in making sure this didn't continue. But that isn't the point.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Did it?
K. Jones: I don't know. I haven't....
The Chair: Through the Chair, hon. members, please.
K. Jones: It's not my job to monitor the relationships among the RCMP, the motor vehicle branch and the Attorney General's ministry. That is the minister's responsibility, and the minister should do his job in that regard. I think it's interesting to see, in the case of something like this, that there doesn't seem to be good control over the issuing of licences. When a person is declared legally blind, and there is a process for being declared legally blind, why isn't the licence taken at that very time? The minister has no process for that. Why is it, under this renewal process, that a person who has a class 4 licence -- a licence to operate up to, I believe, a 24-passenger bus, taxis, perhaps even ambulances -- is allowed to retest without eye testing? That's a very serious problem.
I think the minister has to take some responsibility for seeing that he has better monitoring and control over the issuance of licences. That's the real point. Don't try and divert the responsibility onto myself, hon. minister. You're the one who's responsible for this; I'm not responsible for running your ministry.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Every citizen in this province is responsible for ensuring that our streets are safe, including the member. The second point I would make is that the member raises instances but doesn't know the full details. He doesn't know, for example, what the RCMP did with the information he brought to this committee, in respect of a couple, one of whom was allegedly blind. Does the member know that the RCMP did not raise that with the superintendent of motor vehicles? If he did, I'd want to know, because I doubt it very much indeed.
All members -- and the member, if he's here long enough, will learn this -- have a responsibility when bringing matters before this committee or in front of the House to make sure that the facts they bring are facts and not allegations, suggestions, or ill-informed, incomplete information, which this member has a habit of doing all too often.
K. Jones: Objection.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: It's the first time in these estimates that I felt a need to lecture somebody and felt an anger about the way an issue is being dealt with. We have a system in place in the motor vehicle branch that deals with testing. All new driver's license applications require an eye test. Renewals do not, but doctors, optometrists and eye specialists are required by law to notify the superintendent of motor vehicles if patients have vision problems that may impair their driving ability. The RCMP, when they determine those situations, also notify the motor vehicle branch through the superintendent. Every citizen in this province will do likewise if that citizen is responsible.
K. Jones: First of all, I'd like to ask the minister to withdraw his accusation against myself. I thought the Chair would have properly admonished him for the statement he made. I think at this point I would like to ask for your....
The Chair: Order, hon. member, are you raising a point of order?
K. Jones: Yes, I am.
The Chair: State your point of order, please.
K. Jones: The minister has made criticism of my personal conduct, and I wish to have him withdraw that.
The Chair: I am sure if the hon. minister had intended any personal attack he would be pleased to reconsider and withdraw any comment that may have offended the hon. member.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: My attack was only against those citizens who may not exercise their responsibilities properly. No imputation of any member was meant by that, I hope.
A. Warnke: First of all, before I ask my next question, I just want to make a quick comment. I think the member for Surrey-Cloverdale was pointing out some anomalies within the system and drawing these to the attention of the minister and ministry. I think, in that sense, it is a contribution.
K. Jones: It seemed to touch too close to home.
A. Warnke: I want to turn my attention to another question that was raised as a result of a statement made during these estimates by the Minister of Health. It's just one question, but the Minister of Health did state
[ Page 6376 ]
that there is a close correlation between those who are incarcerated in prisons and those who suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome, suggesting that perhaps the latter is a causal variable of the former. That is, those who have fetal alcohol syndrome have a greater propensity to engage in certain kinds of criminal behavior in our society or, more accurately, compared to the population as a whole, there is a higher proportion of people imprisoned who suffer from fetal alcohol syndrome. I'm wondering if the Attorney General is also aware of that kind of correlation and whether there are any expenditures going in this direction?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I don't have any statistics at all on that particular issue. I think all of us, whether we're in the Ministry of Health, this ministry or anywhere else in public life are concerned about the long-term impacts of FAS. Whether the jail population has a disproportionate number and that's in some way connected, I don't know, but it's the kind of thing that seems to make some sense.
I wonder if I might take an opportunity to answer a question that the member asked me last week, since I now have the answer to it. The member asked about a $32,000 chandelier. I have forgotten the phrase, but I was asked if this was a normal practice of the liquor distribution branch. In fact, the liquor distribution branch was not involved in any way in purchasing chandeliers. The store in question was a turnkey operation. The landlord, the owner of the building, installed his own chandeliers, which interestingly are just glass rods and low-level PowerSmart light bulbs. There was a total cost, apparently, to the landlord of $4,000 for three of them. These are pretty cheap chandeliers. We didn't have to incur any cost.
[11:15]
A. Warnke: I want to express my appreciation for the Attorney General getting back so quickly on that. I was rather curious myself when I heard my version of it.
Interjection.
A. Warnke: That's right. The opposition must ferret out the anomalies. I'm glad we can contribute to resolve some of the discrepancies.
I just have one more question. I believe at the outset, in the introductory remarks by the Attorney General, he did mention that if there were any questions with regard to privacy or information that he'd be willing to entertain those now. I'm not quite sure. It does appear in a separate vote. Perhaps with the indulgence of the Chair, the Attorney General could confirm whether we can discuss this briefly. I have one question with regard to the Freedom of Information Act.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I think what I indicated was that if there were any questions with respect to our ministry to do with freedom of information or protection of privacy, I would try to answer the questions. If they are to do with the overall government initiative -- aside from the legislation which I have responsibility for -- if they are to do with the branch that's doing cross-government work, that's within Government Services.
A. Warnke: I think the Attorney General has clarified that.
I want to pursue one point that has been raised with me. There are just a very few firms involved, but nonetheless I gather that all of them, despite their competitiveness in the marketplace, have expressed some unanimity in this direction. It's with regard to new forms that have been put forward by the ministry in order to obtain driver's licence abstracts. Essentially the members of this industry feel that when one applies for credit, one may sign a form that gives authorization for a company, such as American Express, to acquire the necessary information in order to examine whether that person should obtain credit. Therefore there should be an ability to acquire all the necessary information built into an application. Despite the fact that an individual may sign such a form authorizing a company to acquire driver's licence records or whatever, there is in fact a separate form. The argument that has been put forward by the industry is that when an insurance business is involved in the processing of claims and so forth, a separate new form is actually getting in the way and obscuring the neat processing of an application. I'm wondering if the Attorney General has also heard from the industry and whether there is any attempt to streamline the process. The fear is that a person may apply for insurance and, with the delay as a result of some of the redundant procedures and so forth, an application will be jeopardized.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Let me quickly do the overview, and if there is a continuing specific issue, the member can come back. Under the new procedures and policies that come out of the Freedom of Information and Protection of Privacy Act, information that is collected can be used only for the purpose for which it is collected, unless a consent is signed.
I'm not sure if the member is concerned about the nature of the forms for consent or the timing of the consent -- whether it's to do with driver's licences or other forms -- or just what the member's concern is. If the member could be more specific, it might help me to better understand how to answer that question.
A. Warnke: I'll try to be more clear. Let's just start from what my sense of the problem is. There is a new form in order to obtain a driver's licence abstract, and insurance companies assure me that the problems here are immense -- in terms of acquiring the necessary signed authorization. Presumably if an applicant signs an authorization form to accompany that, they may go ahead and retrieve information, including driving records and that sort of thing. Yet the companies have found that this is not the case. They have to try to attempt to get a new form put out by the ministry and the individual has to sign that as well. Has this been
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brought to the attention of the Attorney General? What, if anything, is being done about it?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Yes, it has been brought to my attention by ministry staff -- and a minute ago it was brought to my attention personally. The issue of the form has been referred to the motor vehicle branch for further discussion with the concerned parties. It's a yellow form, I understand, that they are so concerned about. That discussion is continuing.
C. Serwa: I have two topics. One is electronic monitoring. Apparently there have been some problems with individuals removing the device -- and I'm sure the minister is aware of this. What steps is the ministry taking to review, improve or expand this particular program?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: I'm not as well-versed on this as I would like to be, but it is my understanding that the staff of the corrections branch monitor this. If a bracelet is cut, then that becomes evident to the monitor and steps are taken to deal with the individual who has done that. I don't think there have been any problems in respect to people cutting and running away. We've had none of that.
C. Serwa: I won't expand that topic any further. It was expressed to me as a particular concern. We think that it is a good program, but if it is subject to abuse, then there are concerns. That obviously was one of the aspects addressed to me.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Let me just say that electronic monitoring is a good alternative to jail, in appropriate situations. We support increased use of electronic monitoring, where appropriate. It's cheaper and more effective; it's better for families, in many situations. If there are problems with it, then we will deal with those problems as they occur. We have not to date had any serious problems develop, but we're certainly keeping a very close eye on it.
C. Serwa: My last question was, I think, addressed yesterday to the Minister of Environment, where we were talking about aboriginal peoples and about negotiations government to government. The reason I bring that up is that it is clear we need some sort of a concrete definition. The Attorney General had referred -- a month ago, perhaps -- to a situation with respect to aboriginal gaming issues, negotiating on a nation-to-nation basis. There was some concern with the actual definition of "nation" or "government to government" -- whether it's conferred or inferred. Has the minister established, or is he working on the establishment of, clear definitions so that the public at large can really understand what constitutes a nation? Is it a family group? Is it a band? Is it a tribal council? Or is it a larger umbrella-type organization? Is government to government identical to a municipal government talking to the provincial government? Clearly some sort of guidelines have to be established in that area.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The first thing I should do is acknowledge that in question period that day I did refer to nation to nation, but clearly that was a mistake; Government to government is what I meant to say. We're not a nation; we're just a government, and a little one at that.
The definition of what are aboriginal governments is one that continues to evolve. It flows from discussions that are ongoing through various forums, particularly under the mandate of the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs. We're not in the position of writing a definition as to what a government is or what a first nations government is. Obviously there are governmental -- using a small "g" here -- structures among first nations which include tribal councils, band councils and other organizations, and how we deal with them is an evolving matter. We treat them all with the kind of respect that they deserve and the kind of status that they expect, which is understood to be this government-to-government relationship.
K. Jones: I would like to go back to the area of electronic custody. I want to ask the Attorney General if a U.S. firm is still providing some of the equipment and monitoring in British Columbia.
Hon. C. Gabelmann: It's a Canadian firm.
K. Jones: Thank you. Is there just one Canadian firm now providing the entire province? I believe they just entered into a new contract for the remainder of the province -- outside of Vancouver Island -- which they had previously. Is that correct?
Hon. C. Gabelmann: The member is correct.
K. Jones: I will just give an assurance to the Attorney General and to the member for Okanagan West with regard to his question. Since that firm happens to be located in my riding, I have had the pleasure of being taken through their facilities. They have both an alarm indication when there is an attempt to even partially cut into the bracelet, and there is also a thermal measure on the unit that determines whether there is body temperature adjoining the unit. If that's not there, then it's also a separate alarm.
There is also a series of other methods -- which are all alarmed -- that prevent the partial opening of the device. The device has a lot of fail-safe conditions, and it provides an excellent means of allowing people to continue at work or at their community organizations such as AA or other help organizations. They can be monitored just by driving by the front of the building, or where they are supposed to be, and scanning for the numbers that are supposed to be on that site. So the system seems to work very well. I am very proud to say that this outfit, which has now been given the entire provincial contract for it -- beating out a Denver, Colorado company -- has been recognized for having
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the most advanced electronic custody equipment and surveillance procedure anywhere in North America.
Vote 19 approved.
Vote 20: ministry operations, $777,111,823 -- approved.
Vote 21: judiciary, $31,434,461 -- approved.
Vote 22: emergency assistance, $803,500 -- approved.
[11:30]
Hon. C. Gabelmann: Hon. Chair, I move the committee rise, report resolutions and ask leave to sit again.
Motion approved.
The Committee rose at 11:31 a.m.
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