[ Page 7637 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Residential Tenancy Amendment Act, 1989 (Bill 47). Hon. L. Hanson

Introduction and first reading –– 7637

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Regional Development and

Ministry of State for Mainland-Southwest estimates. (Hon. Mr. Veitch)

On vote 48: minister's office –– 7637

Hon. Mr. Veitch

Mrs. Boone

Mr. Kempf

The House met at 10:06 a.m.

Prayers.

Introduction of Bills

RESIDENTIAL TENANCY
AMENDMENT ACT, 1989

Hon. L. Hanson presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Residential Tenancy Amendment Act, 1989.

HON. L. HANSON: Mr. Speaker, this bill addresses two very important issues. The first issue is better protection for the persons whose permanent residence is in a rooming-house or lower-cost hotel. Effective now, this group of persons will be recognized as hotel tenants with certain protections and may apply to the residential tenancy branch to help resolve difficulties.

Secondly, upon proclamation of this legislation, all monetary claims of $5,000 or less, including security deposits, will be handled by the residential tenancy branch rather than small claims court. This change will make it easier for both tenants and landlords to settle monetary and non-monetary claims through arbitration with a minimum of cost and lost time.

Arbitrators have the authority to make binding decisions on matters brought before them, and any orders they make are enforceable through the courts.

Bill 47 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Orders of the Day

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Pelton in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF REGIONAL
DEVELOPMENT AND MINISTRY OF STATE
FOR MAINLAND-SOUTHWEST

On vote 48: minister's office, $341,470.

HON. MR. VEITCH: It's my distinct pleasure to stand in the committee today to tell the members about a success story that's taking place in the province of British Columbia.

Firstly, I want to thank the two parliamentary secretaries who work with me in the ministry-of-state position, the second member for Langley (Mr. Peterson) and the second member for Central Fraser Valley (Mr. De Jong). I also want to thank the staff who work in the Ministry of Regional Development and in the minister of state's office. They are the brightest of the best, and without them British Columbia would be a lot worse off.

There's always exciting news coming from this ministry, and today I have the opportunity of reviewing very important initiatives we are undertaking thanks to the budget that will be provided to this Legislature.

Since this government came into power in October 1986, the economy of British Columbia has experienced a period of unprecedented growth. This government, a government that believes strongly in the free market, has encouraged economic growth and economic diversification that will ensure that our province is economically strong for decades to come. Over the last 12 months economic growth has been most significant. This growth is occurring throughout each and every development region of the province: Kootenay, Thompson-Okanagan, Mainland-Southwest, Vancouver Island-Coast, Northeast, Nechako, North Coast and Cariboo.

The primary reason why sustainable economic growth and diversification are occurring throughout British Columbia is because 21 short months ago this government had the courage and vision to adopt a strategy of regional development. Under the regional development strategy we are encouraging development that is both economically and environmentally sound in every region of the province. We have a task force on the environment and the economy, which issued its first report yesterday, which will point out new directions for us to pursue towards sustainable economic development.

Whether it's our commitment to increase silviculture, the construction of the natural gas pipeline to Vancouver Island or the proposal by China Steel to build a state-of-the-art steel mill, this government is taking measures to ensure that sustainable development is indeed a reality.

Sustainable development is the way of the future. Regional development throughout Canada and the world is the way of the future. All members of this assembly know that the world is in the midst of one of the most profound economic changes since the development of our modern industrial economy. The revolution in technology has redefined the world's economy and altered the way we live and work. For example, countries of the Pacific Rim which 40 years ago were economically underdeveloped have emerged as world economic powers.

However, technology and geography are only two of the components of the peaceful economic revolution that has taken place over the past 40 years. A third and growing component of this economic revolution is the worldwide movement to regionalize economic decision-making. This is a change that affects both the public and private sectors. It's a change that will have far-reaching implications for decades to come. The world economy and its machinery have become so complex that central decisionmaking no longer works, and even the national leader of the NDP realizes that in certain statements that he's made in British Columbia. A regionalized structure allows for maneuverability and adaptability which are essential if one is to successfully compete in today's world economy.

[ Page 7638 ]

The rationale for regionalizing operations is quite simple. It makes for more informed decisions which reflect the needs and priorities of people in any area. Two leading academics in the field of regional development, Benjamin Higgins and Donald Savoie, have stated: "Regions are an integral part of the structure of the national economy, and national economic systems cannot be understood, nor effective policies formulated, nor plans made, without understanding the regional structure" — of any jurisdiction.

[10:15]

Moreover, as we are moving from an industrial age to an information age, the resulting emphasis on rapid two-way communication makes regional development a vital part of this transformation. In British Columbia, regional development is playing an ever-increasing role. Under our regional development strategy, local executives, local managers, local community leaders and politicians are a vital part of the provincial decision-making process.

In September 1987, speaking in Chilliwack, the Leader of the Opposition said that regionally based economic strategies would help to revitalize the economy of British Columbia. For a change, the Leader of the Opposition was indeed correct. The regional development strategy has played a key role in revitalizing the economy of British Columbia Local decision-making, which is at the heart of regional development, simply makes for more informed and more timely decisions.

People in the eight economic regions of the province are defining the role they want the provincial government to play, as well as their role in developing the local economy and infrastructure. They are volunteering thousands of hours of their valuable time to sit on committees and task forces, and we are getting better government as a result of those committees and as a result of that endeavour.

Regional development is a concept that is being utilized not just in British Columbia, but in Australia, Japan, Washington, California and in industry as well as in government. Let us keep in mind that the provincial economy is but the sum of the regional economies. Therein lies the strength of the regionalization policy, because it allows each region to build on its own strengths.

Mr. Chairman, if the opposition would have their little dialogue outside of the building where they can.... Maybe they don't talk to each other in their own caucus room. I am unsure of that.

Interjections.

HON. MR. VEITCH: I see. I don't understand you, hon. member, but I can't quite make out what you are saying. We ought not to ever have two fools speaking at the same time, you see.

We have built on these strengths, and as a result, the province as a whole has become far more diversified and, in turn, we are able to compete better in the international marketplace. Throughout the province, regionalization is making a difference. We now have business information centres in 80 locations through-out the province, and we will be establishing 20 more this year. These business information centres provide small business people with basic information and provide a first point of access to assist services available from government agencies. As well, through the British Columbia business network — a network of business databases — we are giving all regions of the province access to available business opportunities nationally and internationally. We're expanding strategically located government agents' offices to create full-access centres in each of the development regions. This will ensure that British Columbians, particularly those in the rural areas, have quick, easy access to key government services such as employment standards, consumer taxation services, vital stats, driver licensing, and so on.

Moving vital statistics and driver licensing to the government agents has been a popular move, and it has allowed British Columbians to see firsthand the tangible results accruing from regional development. As well, government agents are working closely with local members of the Legislative Assembly and the ministers of state to get quick responses on important community concerns.

As well, we have many business assistance programs tailored to help small and medium-sized businesses around the province. For example, the small business venture capital program encourages investment in British Columbia. Under this program the private sector is provided with an incentive to invest in British Columbia businesses through a tax credit equal to 30 percent of the amount invested. The program has been a great success, with over a hundred VCCs registered, and small businesses have received a total of over $35 million in total investments under this program.

Another initiative is the small business incentive program. It is designed to help small- and medium sized businesses to establish, to modernize or to expand. And the small business program is one of the programs under the federal-provincial economic and regional development agreement. It's a simplified and streamlined version of three previous programs. This streamlining is an example of the improvement in the quality of service that small business people are receiving from our government through the regionalized process throughout British Columbia.

Another positive initiative that the Ministry of Regional Development and the ministers of state and MLAs are closely involved with is the provincial transportation planning program entitled "Freedom to Move," being implemented by my colleague the Minister of Transportation and Highways (Hon. Mr. Vant). Each region of the province now has a transportation committee. These committees have met and are meeting with community groups to determine and assess local transportation needs. As Minister of Regional Development, I know firsthand that transportation provides the infrastructure for economic development. As such, transportation issues are vital for the Ministry of Regional Development; they're vital for economics in the province of British Columbia.

[ Page 7639 ]

The way we're developing our transportation plan demonstrates the regional development approach. Our transportation plan is being developed from the bottom up, through consultation with the users. As such, local MLAs, locally elected officials, local people from the transportation fields, as well as business and labour leaders, are participating. By emphasizing local participation, Mr. Chairman, we will ensure that changes to transportation are in the best interests of the local communities.

I can tell you without hesitation that the regional development strategy has been met with tremendous enthusiasm by local officials throughout all regions of the province of British Columbia. Mayors from Chetwynd to Surrey to Grand Forks have spoken favourably about regionalization.

Bob Bose is the mayor of Surrey. Some say he's an NDP mayor. I don't care, really, what his politics are. This is what he had to say after the Cabinet Committee on Regional Development — which is putting the spirit of regional development into action — traveled to Surrey to talk with civic officials on their own turf. The mayor of Surrey said:

"I'd like to thank you on behalf of the council and our administration for the opportunity to meet with you and the Premier and your cabinet colleagues. We were greatly encouraged by the interest and enthusiasm expressed by the Cabinet Committee on Regional Development on the ideas we presented, and look forward to continuing participation with you in their realization."

That's signed by Dr. Bob Bose, the mayor of Surrey,

MR. ROSE: Very courteous.

HON. MR. VEITCH: A very courteous man and a very perceptive man as well, hon. member. He realizes that working for the best interests of Surrey doesn't necessarily mean adopting the ideological, political line of any particular political party given at that point in time. Local officials of all political stripes favour the regional approach, because it ensures that the priorities of the communities are heard and given quick and prompt consideration regardless of the politics.

In a nutshell, what we're saying to the people of British Columbia is that regionalization is presenting you with new opportunities. From an economic perspective, what the regional development initiative does is open doors to business incentive programs, to international market opportunities, to suppliers and customers, and to investors and entrepreneurs.

The statistics bear this out. For example, over the last year in the province of British Columbia — take your pencil out, critic, please — retail sales are up 8 percent; new car sales are up 9.6 percent; manufacturing shipments are up by 5.8 percent; exports are up by 9.6 percent; restaurants, caterers and tavern receipts are up by 6.4 percent. Employment is up: 72,000 more British Columbians were working in May 1989 than in May 1988. The only thing that is down in the province of British Columbia is bankruptcies.

MR. LOVICK: The only other thing is your standing in the polls.

HON. MR. VEITCH: We'll work that one out, hon. member. It takes a little time. There's lots of time. Don't worry. You don't want to get too defeated too soon. You haven't got your feet warm here yet.

Employment growth is taking place in all regions of this province, and I'm confident that growth will continue in the future. My ministry and my colleagues the ministers of state and the MLAs around the province have worked together to get many new projects underway — including Prince George North, the FMC hydrogen peroxide plant in Prince George, which will employ 50 to 60 people in an operation with 400 to 500 jobs during the construction phase. It's vital, because it's also a source of bleaching which, once it's adopted, will eliminate much of the dioxin problems we have in the province of British Columbia. The ferrochromium plant in Nanaimo will employ 75 people during the two-year construction phase and upwards of 200 when in full operation. A pulp mill in Chetwynd will create jobs for about 300 people in the northeast.

MR. WILLIAMS: How much are you going to throw at that?

HON. MR. VEITCH: Not quite as much as Panco Poultry, hon. member.

The Mitsubishi chopstick plant in Fort Nelson will create an additional 200 jobs, and the MacDonald Dettwiler expansion in Richmond will create 200 jobs in the advanced technology field.

Our economic resurgence has been led by an innovative and dynamic private sector. We have companies that are world leaders setting trends for others to follow, right here in the province of British Columbia. All of us on this side of the House know governments do not create wealth. Governments can only create a climate that is conducive to economic growth, Through initiatives such as regional development strategy, we have enhanced the economic infrastructure and encouraged investment and diversifications in each and every region in the province.

There is some positive news every day in this ministry, positive news for British Columbians as well as for the government. There are many announcements we are making. There is so much good news from this ministry that it's hard to keep up with the issues. Over the next few years and the next few weeks, we'll be making many more positive announcements. For example, under our very successful community organization for economic development program, my colleagues will be announcing over $136,000 worth of funding available to local communities. The funding provided by COED gives financial assistance to local community organizations, which in turn provide local leadership and initiative in economic growth for the communities in which they serve. This funding is a direct result of the initiative and hard work of the Members of the

[ Page 7640 ]

Legislative Assembly and ministers of state who work throughout the province.

As well, we will be announcing the names of more than 30 successful small businesses that have received funding through the small business incentive program. These loans represent investments in the future of British Columbia of over $1.5 million worth of federal-provincial funding going to small business throughout the province in communities such as Bamfield, Surrey, Castlegar, Grand Forks, Williams Lake, Delta and Nanaimo — communities in each and every region of the province of British Columbia.

Interjection.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Yes, some in the Okanagan too, hon. member.

Companies that will be receiving loans include aquaculture farms, woodworking companies, chemical producers and sportswear manufacturers; companies that are helping British Columbia to expand and to diversify its economy, and that create new jobs for the people of our province.

As well, Mr. Chairman, through our government's industrial incentive fund, we are providing financial assistance to industrial manufacturers. Over the next two months, we will be making major funding announcements regarding British Columbia manufacturing industries. A total of $30 million in loans will be provided to companies that specialize in....

Interjection.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Would you vote against them, hon. member? You don't want any diversification? Is that what you're saying? There's not much happening in Vancouver East; I don't know why.

A total of $30 million in loans will be provided to companies that specialize in advanced technology, value-added wood products, forestry equipment and other manufactured products that are sought worldwide. These loans will lead to the creation of more than 500 jobs and at least $160 million in new private-sector investment.

[10:30]

Mr. Chairman, I mentioned that the Pacific Rim is the engine that drives the world economy, and let me tell you that British Columbia is a vital part of that engine. This government is laying the foundations to ensure that our province is a strong and vital competitor in the global economy.

In the throne speech and in the budget we made commitments that will assure that we will be making many more positive announcements for the people of British Columbia. The budget allocated $3.9 million in new funding for the expansion of community based initiatives, such as the COED program which assists local economic development. As well, the regional seed capital program will be increased. Up to $48 million in loan guarantees will be provided in the coming year to small British Columbia businesses. We will also provide $1.5 million for the new employee equity program that we introduced in the House last week. This innovative and dynamic initiative will provide incentives for employees to invest in their firms or in work-sponsored venture capital funds. This bill was wholly supported by the opposition, and I want to thank them for that.

A Vancouver chartered accountant, Doug Eakins, said in the Vancouver Sun a short time ago: "This program will help employees feel more involved in business, and employers will have a greater respect for the employees if they share ownership." This is one more example of government's commitment to policies that encourage job creation and job enhancement in each and every region in the province of British Columbia.

In addition, together with the Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources, the Ministry of Regional Development will establish a $5 million loan program for the building of roads to access mineral resources in the province of British Columbia. The list goes on. British Columbia is on the move, whether the opposition likes it or not. Through our regionalized approach, we will ensure that the momentum is maintained.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I believe that the regional development approach....

MR. WILLIAMS: More, more.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Oh, yes, you want more, you'll hear more.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I believe that the regional development approach to economic development and diversification is the only answer in today's highly competitive world economy. Through the regional development strategy, we have brought government closer to all British Columbians. All regions have experienced growth, particularly those outside the population centres of Vancouver and Victoria. Our regional development strategy has been a major factor facilitating this growth and this diversification. The last 12 months have been a period of strong economic growth for our province.

MR. WILLIAMS: This is a joke.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Look at the numbers, hon. member.

I am confident that by working together with local communities — that's our style; not against them — we will continue to see further job growth, further economic expansion and a stronger and more diversified provincial economy. Thank you.

Before I respond to the questions that members might have, again I'd like to introduce to you some members of my staff: first of all, the Deputy Minister of Regional Development, Bob Plecas. We have a dynamic team back here. We have Chris Nelson, ADM, Steve Hollett, ADM, and Kathleen Mayoh, ADM. And I'd be pleased to answer each and every question.

MRS. BOONE: Mr. Chairman, I think the minister has missed his vocation. Stand-up comedy is obvi-

[ Page 7641 ]

ously your vocation, and I urge you to practise this a little more, because it's obvious you'll be doing this in a very short time.

I can't help but wonder. This government claims success for everything. Economic growth, you say, has to do with the regional development. Well, I tell you, Mr. Minister, the economic growth that has taken place in this province has nothing to do with the regional development plan that you guys put in; it has to do with a strong and vital forest sector, a pulp industry and a timber industry that is vital right now despite everything you do. It has absolutely nothing to do with your actions. You've done very little to diversify this economy.

If the forest industry went down the tube tomorrow, I can tell you that my community and the community of Mackenzie and many other communities would be in just as bad straits as they were in the early eighties, because we haven't got the diversification that has been promised from you.

Interjection.

MRS. BOONE: You have not diversified whatsoever. If you were talking about diversification, there is one area that you have totally ignored. This government should have been the leading edge of technology to change our environment around. We have missed something absolutely vital there. We should have been one of the forerunners there, developing technology to clean up our environment. Instead, what have you done? You have literally dragged this government into acknowledging that the environment is a concern, acknowledging that people are suddenly concerned about a sustainable development program. It is absolutely a joke to the people. Look at what has taken place in many parts of this province. Fly over any of it or go for a boat ride with the member for North Island (Mr. Gabelmann), and he will show you some sections of this province that have been devastated, with no thought to the environment and no thought to diversification and certainly no thought to sustainable development. Your whole question there is an absolute joke, Mr. Minister.

You talk about decentralization; you've redefined this word. You've taken a word that we used to talk about in our policies, and we promoted it all the time. And now when you talk decentralization, people look at you with a smirk on their face, because they think about the ministers of state, this extra level of bureaucracy that has been instituted.

[Mr. Rogers in the chair.]

A keynote speaker in the Kootenays defined this the best when he said that decentralization to him has now become Howard Dirks — oh, excuse me, I'm not allowed to say that, am I? — the minister running around with a briefcase full of cheques. And that was what was said by a keynote speaker. I think that was fairly appropriate, because that is what the people of British Columbia see: announcements three or four times daily from the ministers of state, announcing $2,000 for this, $2,000 for that; everything from sewage systems to grants for non-alcoholic grads. They have absolutely nothing to do with regional development, Mr. Minister, and absolutely everything to do with the existing line ministries. And yet the ministers of state are claiming every single, solitary expenditure in this province as being something that has come from their initiative. Sewage systems, Mr. Minister, are general things that we take for granted as coming through the Ministry of Municipal Affairs, and suddenly it becomes the interest of the minister of state and nobody else.

We also believe that local decision-making does make for better decision-making, and that is something that you certainly won't get any disagreement on from there. But we don't believe that you need to have a whole slew of extra people in there to give those local people the right to make the decisions. We have locally elected people, Mr. Minister, people who have been elected within their own areas to make decisions on the basis of the municipality, for school boards, regional districts. All of those people ought to have the opportunity to make their own decisions. They don't need subcommittees running around. They don't need extra people in there. They don't need to have to go through their minister of state or back to you in order to get things done. Right now that is what is happening.

[Mr. Clark in the chair.]

If you talk to the people in the field, Mr. Minister, you'll find that they don't know who to go to. They don't know whether they should go to the line minister; they don't know whether they should go to the minister of state. So the individuals out there are going to both. They're duplicating their workload; they're covering all bases because they don't know who to go to anymore. It is very confusing to the people out there, because nobody realizes where to go. They have ministers of state. You have line ministers. You have people at the regions who are working at things. And nobody understands where they are supposed to go. If you really believe in decentralization, if you really believe in putting power into the hands of the people and giving people a say at the regional level, then put that power into their hands. Give the regionally elected people the ability to make decisions on their own.

That includes, Mr. Minister, the lower mainland mayors who had to come to you on bended knees and threaten you about the pipeline. You did not listen to those lower mainland mayors until they absolutely had to go to the papers. You didn't listen to them. Where were you, Mr. Minister, over that whole issue? You weren't listening to them; that's where you weren't. You weren't listening to them at all.

Interjections.

MRS. BOONE: You were not ahead of them.

[ Page 7642 ]

You talk about the government agent's office, Mr. Minister. You say with glee how much the government agent's offices are doing. And they are doing a lot, and they're doing it very well. They should be doing a lot. However, you are putting a load on these offices — an extensive load — without giving them the staff and the resources to cope with those things.

I think it's rather ridiculous when you are telling government agents that they receive a course on how to inspect toilets because they are to do the job of the former regional Ministry of Tourism, because you haven't filled that job. You don't fill that job, so you tell your government agents: "It's going to be your responsibility to go out and check the motels and hotels for tourist accommodations." And government agents are told: "This is how you inspect toilets. This is how you inspect bathrooms. And perhaps you should get one of those little dentist's mirrors so you can go under the edge and make sure that the toilets are clean."

Yes, Mr. Minister. That was told to your government agents. That was not a lower-level staff. Those are the government agents of this province who are being told to inspect the toilets in our tourist accommodations where they don't have a tourist accommodation person.

If you want to, sure, put the information in the hands of the government agents. I think the people appreciate knowing they can go to the government agent and get as much information as they can. I think they appreciate all the things that the government agent is now able to give to them. But for goodness' sake, give them the ability, give them the personnel to help them make that a workable office You can't keep loading up offices with more and more things.

I'd like to talk to you a little bit, because I have some real concerns about what's not taking place. I have some concerns that the fact that the regional development office and the regional states that exist have no coordination. There really doesn't seem to be anything that says: "This is what you should be doing." There are some things that are taking place, and you mentioned the transportation thing. But each and every one of them.... I've tried, in my short term as a critic for this area, to find out how each and every one of the states is functioning. I've found that each and every one of them is functioning totally differently, that there is little coordination there and that there is little coordination coming from the regional minister here.

Part of the mandate within the estimates book states that as an economic development, this minister is responsible for coordination of regional plans. I would like to ask the minister, as there appears to be no standard way of operating in each state, what role this minister has played in developing regional plans What role have you done to coordinate those plans — which is in the mandate statement here? What coordination is currently taking place? I'll ask you that right now, sir.

[10:45]

MR. CHAIRMAN: On vote 48, the Minister of Regional Development.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I must say you've lost weight.

MR. WILLIAMS: You're not getting very many votes that way.

HON. MR. VEITCH: No, no, this guy; I don't think I'll get many votes in Vancouver East anyway.

MR. LOVICK: It's about the weightiest thing you've said.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Just hang on, hon. member. Even you can learn something. I realize there are people in this world who have more knowledge than, even in your own conception, yourself. But just hang on.

We're talking about government agents, and I must go through some of these areas that the hon. member spoke of. I appreciated her opening salvo. It was well done, I want to commend her for the way she delivered it.

We asked at the outset, when we brought in the program of regionalization, for each and every Member of the Legislative Assembly on both sides of the House to become part of the solution and to work with the program.

The leaders of the NDP, primarily at the national level.... I turned on the television during the last federal campaign and here was Mr. Broadbent, in either Vernon or Prince George or maybe both, talking about the joys and the wonders and even the upcoming salvation that would accrue with an NDP government if they would just adopt a plan of regionalization. He talked about establishing committees that would report to certain ministers and would have a more direct access back to government. I listened to him, and I could never quite bring myself to vote for Mr. Broadbent, but he was making a great deal of sense. I must commend him. The Leader of the Opposition has also made speeches that have come right up to the line supporting regional development, saying: "It's a good idea, but we'd do it differently. We wouldn't do it quite that way."

The hon. member talked about government agents: it was a good idea to get government agents doing more things but we weren't giving them enough help. I'll tell you, if you'd just check the blue book you would see, hon. member, that the government agents have received a 15 percent increase in budget and a 10 percent increase in staff. They've gone from 268 to 338, an increase of 71 throughout the province, so they are receiving the increase in staff. It's true they are doing more things and are more involved in the community than they ever were before. I have attended meetings. I've talked with almost every one of the government agents individually. These are fine, wonderful people doing a great job on behalf of the province, and they are asking to be given more and more responsibilities.

[ Page 7643 ]

Hon. member, if you would become involved in the system.... You can do what you wish: you can opt out or you can opt in. You can either be part of the solution or part of the problem. You've opted to be part of the problem and not to become involved in the regional program. When you get people like the mayor of Surrey agreeing with regionalization, I would say that the mayor of Surrey is putting the principles of his people and their goodwill before partisan politics in his area. The program is working, and it will work better if everybody is involved in it. It is the wave of the future, not only here but throughout Canada.

I've just received some submissions from the government of Manitoba wanting to come up here to look at the program. I had a meeting this morning with some representatives from the government of Canada who want to regionalize some of their programs along the lines that we have regionalized the programs here in British Columbia.

As far as coordination is concerned, we meet at least twice weekly in a coordinating effort privately and then in a committee with the directors and associate directors. Those ministers of state meet continually with the committees and with the locally elected people throughout the province. We have a continuous, positive network working on behalf of the people of British Columbia in each and every region. It's working very well. You need to step back and take a look at it — with great respect, hon member — objectively; take off the political blinders.

MRS. BOONE: It's interesting; you twist the words of the mayor of Surrey around a little bit there. Yes, he thanked you for coming and talking to him, and I don't blame him; I'd thank you for coming too. I thanked you when you came up to Prince George. I mean, we so seldom see you, of course we're glad to see you there. We're glad to see anybody from the government come and pay some attention, not because we accept what you are doing on the regional basis but because we can't get through to you any other time, and nobody else can get through to you either. Of course he's glad to see you, and I expect any mayor would say: "Welcome, and we're glad to see you here. Please come again and listen to us a little more, Mr. Minister."

I'd like to ask you some questions. It was originally stated that 10,000 civil servants were going to be spread out throughout the province.

Interjection.

MRS. BOONE: Well, you didn't say it; you weren't the minister at that time. But 10,000 civil servants. Fear went through the city of Victoria, but the rest of the province were sort of saying yes, that might be a good idea.

How many civil servants have actually been moved out of Victoria? How many positions for civil servants have been created in the regions?

HON. MR. VEITCH: The process is not to move people willy-nilly anywhere in the province. That's not what it's all about. It's to maximize the work that those people throughout the province are able to do on behalf of the people of their particular region. We've already pointed out that government agents have received a 15 percent increase in budget and a 10 percent increase in staff. In each and every region there is a small coordinating group — very small in most cases — that has a regional development liaison officer and generally one member of staff working with those government agents, working with the MLAs to make things happen. There's been very little movement of people from Victoria. I don't think anybody on this side of the House ever said it was going to happen to any large extent, but there was some fear mongering done by other people. We weren't guilty of it, so if the hon. member expects me to repeat the rhetoric from that side of the House, I won't be doing that.

I can tell you that regionalization is being accepted, and it's being accepted as we can work it in on a proper basis throughout government. It makes sense not only here; it makes sense in Australia, California, Japan and all around the world. Even in the Soviet Union, regionalization and decentralization is taking place. It's a worldwide movement. If the NDP would run from the back of the crowd and get up front once in a while and see where the leadership is, they might find that it would work for them as well. Your national leader realizes that. When your leader here starts to realize it, maybe you'll be on the right track.

MRS. BOONE: You don't seem to listen, Mr. Minister. We've always said we believe in decentralization, we have accepted decentralization, but you — your government — has redefined decentralization. Your government has taken decentralization to mean it's the minister of state; it's not the people in the local region who are making the decisions. What we're saying is that we don't need extra people; we don't need ministers of state coming in. I'm sure the member for Omineca (Mr. Kempf), who will get up very shortly, will tell you just how much he needs a minister of state coming into his area and telling him those things.

The structure is there, Mr. Minister. You have regional teams, municipalities, school boards. You even have regional health boards. Except, Mr. Minister, that you won't give them the power to do things. You expect them to come to the minister of state. Sometimes, Mr. Minister, there are even committees working outside of those bodies that deal with them. I can give an example for the Nechako region, where a committee for education was instructed originally not to report to the school board but to the line ministry. Surely by bypassing the existing school board you are not regionalizing; you are centralizing.

That's the big difference: when you have ministers of state in Victoria who have control of everything, you are not regionalizing whatsoever. You are centralizing the control. That's the difference between

[ Page 7644 ]

what we think we should be doing and what you believe. We're not against decentralization, as you said. You've taken this word and turned it around so that we can't even use it anymore. We can't use the words regionalization, decentralization and consultation anymore. When you say consultation, everybody laughs, because the Premier ran around talking about consultation at the beginning of the election, and we know how much your government has consulted with people. In this province you have taken those three words out of our language and given them a whole new meaning.

I'd like to ask you this. Your Premier has said at different times that an example of decentralization is the Lottery Corporation, which was moved to Kamloops and provided that community with a boost it needed. That is being used as a prime example of decentralization. Speaking after, there were always things as to: what about B.C. Rail? Is it possible to move that corporation someplace else, like Prince George? Those have been suggestions by people on your side, Mr. Minister, by your own Premier, who uses this as an example. Can you tell me what Crown corporations, or even what other offices, have been moved out of this capital city or the Vancouver area into some other region of this province? What areas have been regionalized, Mr. Minister?

HON. MR. VEITCH: The NDP, Mr. Chairman — and I'm glad you will agree with me on this; I know you will — always believe that all wealth is generated somehow or other by government, and if you don't move government agencies around and create more government agencies, you don't have more wealth. A heck of a lot more wealth is being generated by the private sector, thank goodness, than by government agencies.

And right, this government, way back when, practised decentralization when it established the Lottery Corporation in Kamloops, and it did great things for that city. We have other initiatives underway. We're negotiating with several large firms. Hold on to your hat; there's going to be lots more development in the area of Kamloops as a result of our regionalization policy. You watch it; it's occurring. I am not going to get into the details with you and tell you what they are at this time, because we are still in negotiations. But I will as soon as they are announced. I will personally send you a copy of the press release, or you can even be at the announcement, hon. member, if you wish.

Policies are not static. They are not like the NDP. They are not locked back into the industrial revolution. We are a forward-moving government always. People around the province and mayors from almost every community in this province.... I have what is tantamount to testimonials from them saying: "Yes, this is a good process. Yes, I didn't think too much of it at the start, but doggone it, it is working." More and more of that is happening in Vancouver, Surrey, Trail and Dawson Creek. It is happening all over the province of British Columbia.

We are cooperating. We are working directly with those mayors through their MLAs, wherever the MLAs want to work with them. We can't force them to come to the water. We'd love to have you cooperate, and we'd love to be working with you, but we realize that you've adopted a philosophical stance that won't allow you to do it, because you vote as a block. I guess you think as a block; you think blockish.

Hon. member, one day you'll see the light, as the hon. member for North Island (Mr. Gabelmann) did when he showed his newfound salvation and his new, profound love for free enterprise. One day you will also be on the road to Damascus, and you will arrive. I have faith in you as well.

[11:00]

MR. KEMPF: Mr. Chairman, I don't wish to spend too much time on this debate, but given some of the things that have been alluded to by the minister of everything down there in the corner, I wish to talk a bit about MLA involvement, about the so-called democratization of the province of British Columbia and what the people I talk to think about what is really happening with respect to regionalization and decentralization.

I heard the minister speak very highly of MLA participation. As the minister knows, I was the only member outside of the government benches who agreed to opt into the system.

HON. MR. VEITCH: There was one more.

MR. KEMPF: Perhaps there was another; I am not aware. I opted into the system, and it's probably the biggest mistake I've ever made, Mr. Minister, because I have never had so many frustrations in my political life — going on 14 years here — as I have had since I opted in to the ministry of state system.

I can't speak for how the other seven areas — in this case, the other four ministers — operate, but I am sure waiting for the estimates of the Minister of State for Nechako and Northeast (Hon. Mr. Weisgerber). I can tell you firsthand how that system works.

I can bring you up to date, as a matter of fact, on how it works and how this member, as a member of the forestry committee of that state, was left out of a meeting three weeks ago and not even told that the meeting was going to be held, I would suspect it was because of a deal made between the Minister of Forests (Hon. Mr. Parker) and the economic development liaison officer for that state of Nechako, who was the previous campaign manager for that Minister of Forests. I can see why. Not only that, but he is now on the executive of the Skeena Social Credit Constituency Association.

HON. MR. VEITCH: You used to be on that executive yourself.

MR. KEMPF: No, not of Skeena. Mr. Minister, I wouldn't make fun of this; I'd listen to it pretty seriously, because it's going to be what costs you the

[ Page 7645 ]

election, whenever it is called down the road. I would listen very intently, because if you don't learn now, it's going to be too late.

Not only was I left off the agenda for that meeting, but a meeting of that state of Nechako was held in Atlin this last weekend of which I knew absolutely nothing. If you really want to talk about how that's going down out there, then phone the mayor of Vanderhoof and get his views on it; because I have.

Interjection.

MR. KEMPF: Yes, I know you talk to him. Every time you do, I find out.

HON. MR. VEITCH: I say nice things about you.

MR. KEMPF: Unbeknownst to you, he's my supporter.

I'll tell you how it works in the state of Nechako: committeeing people to death, spending three-quarters of a million dollars for a political office in Smithers.

MR. WILLIAMS: Seven hundred and fifty thousand?

MR. KEMPF: To be exact, $710,942. For what? I remember the campaign of 1975, and I remember during that campaign giving the then government an awfully bad time for having one such office in Prince George for the minister of northern affairs, Mr. Nunweiler. We used to call him the half-million dollar man, because he had a half-million dollar office in Prince George. You've merely expanded it.

My constituents out there — those whom the Minister of State for Nechako and Northeast thinks he represents now, through his political hack, Mr. Carter.... I can tell you what they think. Three-quarters of a million dollars for a politically oriented office, multiplied by eight throughout this province For what?

I'm going to ask that minister in his estimates what Mr. Carter does, what he accomplishes and what the staff in that office accomplish for $710,000 of the taxpayers' money.

Interjection.

MR. KEMPF: And I'm asking you the same thing. What does your politically oriented office, with politically appointed people, accomplish for the people of British Columbia?

You talk about sustained development. I need only pick up this morning's Province to see the Bond Brothers mill calling it quits — a mill in Vanderhoof closing its doors because it can't get timber. You've not only killed the little three-, four- and five-man mills; now you're killing a mill with 60 employee.s What kind of sustained development is that?

Things are rosy in the states of British Columbia, are they? I'll tell you, Mr. Minister, they're not rosy. I don't know who you're talking to, but I talk to my constituents on a daily basis; not just those who support me, but all of my constituents. That's not the story I'm getting out of them. If you think they like a democratized situation, where political hacks are running around behind the backs of duly elected representatives, then you're wrong, Mr. Minister, you're absolutely incorrect. They don't like it, and they're going to tell you so. And you won't find out — because you're not learning very fast — until it's too late. You'll find out the day after election day. Mark my words!

I may not be around after that day - as you've seen fit to throw across the floor in other estimates — but neither will you, Mr. Minister. If you don't believe that, ask some of your colleagues. They've talked to their constituents; they'll tell you. Don't listen to me; listen to them. Listen to your back bench, who hear it from their constituents every weekend they go into the constituency. If you think the people of British Columbia like a situation where all power has been taken unto a handful of people, away from duly elected representatives, you've got another thought coming. I know you're very slow at learning, but you'd better learn that lesson pretty soon, because you'll leave the blueprint.

You talk a lot about socialists. My constituents are asking me which socialist is which. It's very easy to throw that connotation across this floor. I used to fall into that trap too. I used to be brainwashed too, but I'll tell you, being able to sit here between the two groups has allowed me to mature in politics, and I'm happy for it.

You know, just because it all comes from the government doesn't say it's all good, and just because it comes from the opposition doesn't say it's all bad. It's about time politicians, not just in this jurisdiction, started taking the best of both worlds for all the taxpayers, because the taxpayers are fed up with what's going on. They're fed up to the teeth.

If you think regionalization is a great success, you've got another thought coming. Sixty-man mills shutting down in my constituency — sustained development indeed! A 30 percent occupancy rate in rental accommodation in my own hometown. Where the hell have you been, Mr. Minister? Who have you been talking to? You haven't been talking to my constituents, that's for sure. You haven't been talking to northerners, that's for sure. If you have, then you've selectively talked to northerners; you've talked to the ones you want to hear.

Mr. Minister, you'll get your opportunity. I'm going to ask you right down to the serial number of that Bronco that's running around out there....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please, Mr. Member. The member addresses the questions through the Chair to the minister.

MR. KEMPF: I want to talk about the transportation planning committee.

Interjections.

[ Page 7646 ]

MR. KEMPF: Mr. Chairman, would you keep order in this House so that I can be heard?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member makes a good point, members. Only one person is to speak at one time, and the member has the floor.

MR. KEMPF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to talk for a moment about the transportation planning committee of which that minister spoke so highly a few minutes ago. Tell me, Mr. Minister — through you, Mr. Chairman — how do you get on that transportation planning committee?

HON. MR. VEITCH: You show up.

MR. KEMPF: No, no, no. I could go into my office and get a file of letters that I've written to the Minister of State for Nechako and Northeast pleading with him for a place on the transportation planning committee. I've only been the member for that area for 14 years; I know a little about the wishes of my constituents with respect to transportation, with respect to the freedom to move. But try as I might, Mr. Minister of everything, I have been unable to get on that committee. Then you talk about MLA participation.

Democracy indeed! There is no more democracy in the province of British Columbia; it has gone out with this administration. The only thing we can look forward to is that the democratization will leave with this administration as well. Whenever you call it, that's going to happen. The rural people of British Columbia have already made up their minds as to the results of the next election.

Interjection.

MR. KEMPF: You bet they have, and it's not the way you see it, Mr. Minister from urban Vancouver — not the way you see at all, I can tell you that.

Talk about MLA participation. The only one who wanted to opt into the system, and what does he get? It would be unparliamentary to say what happens to that minister. Cut right out of meetings. Why, Mr. Chairman? Successful indeed! Sustained development indeed! Regionalization and decentralization — I've never seen such a centralization of power in all my born days.

[11:15]

The minister stands up in this House and speaks highly of a system that the people of British Columbia don't want, as the member for Prince George North (Mrs. Boone) has said. She's put it very well as to the views of northerners. The views of northerners cross political lines, and rightly so. I'll tell you, the northern two-thirds of this province has absolutely no use...

MR. CHAIRMAN: I regret to inform the member that his time has expired.

MR. KEMPF: ...for your system.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just before I recognize the member for Prince George, I recognize the second member for Central Fraser Valley to make an introduction, if leave is granted.

Leave granted.

MR. DE JONG: It's a pleasure for me, on behalf of the member for Cowichan-Malahat (Mr. Bruce), to introduce a group of schoolchildren who are with us in the premises today from Mill Bay Complex School of Cobble Hill. They are here with their teacher, Mr. Steele. I would like to ask the House to give them a cordial welcome.

MRS. BOONE: The member for Omineca was making such wonderful statements and such good points on behalf of the northerners of this province that I would like him to continue.

MR. KEMPF: I could go on for hours and hours, but I just want to ask some specific questions. I talked about the Bond Brothers mill in Vanderhoof. I'm sure that the Minister of State for Nechako and Northeast (Hon. Mr. Weisgerber) is quite aware of this situation.

Because your colleague the minister of everything down there in the corner spoke so highly of sustained development, I want to ask him a question: what are you going to do about this situation? This group of people is represented by a union that I'm sure many of the members on that side are very familiar with — the Christian Labour Association. What are they going to do about the loss of those jobs in Vanderhoof? What are they going to do about the fact that the mill doesn't have enough wood to continue? It has only 18 percent of its needs. What would they do if MacMillan Bloedel had only 18 percent of its cutting needs? What would they do if that mill were in Burnaby and 60 jobs were being lost there? What are you going to do about the Bond Brothers sawmill in Vanderhoof and the wish of those employees to continue that operation?

Put your money where your mouth is, Mr. Minister. Call that association today and say: "I want to help you." Do it through your Minister of State for Nechako and Northeast. Perhaps he'll call a meeting. I'm not sure he'll tell you where or when it is, but perhaps he'll call a meeting. Then I don't know who he'll have there. I guess his political friends are the only ones he seems to want to tell about these meetings.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Will you attend?

MR. KEMPF: Certainly I would.

HON. MR. VEITCH: What will you say? Will you say you're all wrong?

MR. KEMPF: Mr. Chairman, would you call the minister to order? If he wants to talk, let him get on his feet. Right now I have the floor, which is the way it is in this House.

[ Page 7647 ]

What are you going to do about the Bond Brothers situation? What are you going to do about the 30 percent occupancy rate, which directly relates to the economy of the Bulkley Valley in the community of Houston? You talk about a rosy economy. Where? In greater Vancouver, because of the influx of the Hong Kong dollars? That's the only reason you've got a great economy on the lower mainland.

MR. WILLIAMS: You've got that right.

HON. MR. VEITCH: He hasn't got it right.

MR. KEMPF: Oh, he hasn't? Well, what are you going to tell the people of Vanderhoof? When are you going to phone the mayor of Vanderhoof and tell him what you're going to do? You haven't done that yet. That I know. What are you going to tell your colleague, when he doesn't share your philosophy with respect to MLA participation in the state system?

HON. MR. VEITCH: Of course he does.

MR. KEMPF: Are you going to tell the Minister of State for Nechako and Northeast, your colleague in cabinet, that the next time he has a meeting he should notify the member for Omineca, who democratically represents the area concerned? Is that what you're going to do? Get up and let's hear what you're going to do. First I want to know what you're going to do for the people of Vanderhoof and the people of the Bond Brothers mill. Then I want to know what you're going to do to get me on the transportation planning committee, so that I can represent my constituents on that committee. What are you going to do about the minister not informing me about meetings such as the one in Atlin last weekend which I knew absolutely nothing about?

I don't want to ask you what that minister is spending his $710,000 on, which is not the only $710,000 he's got. He's got another $710,000 for the northeast. He's got two political offices. What is he spending those two times $710,000 of the taxpayers' money on? He's spending it on having Mr. Carter go down to get on the executive of the Skeena Social Credit Constituency Association. Is that what he's spending it on?

MR. WILLIAMS: He's signing on members.

MR. KEMPF: I know. You don't see anything wrong with that, Mr. Minister; that's your problem I'll tell you, the people of British Columbia do. Here we have an economic development liaison officer sitting in Smithers making decisions with respect to taxpayers' money and economic development, and he's on the executive of the Skeena Social Credit Constituency Association. That's not a conflict of interest? You don't see that?

Interjections.

MR. KEMPF: Neither does the member for Yale Lillooet (Mr. Rabbitt). He doesn't see that either. I don't doubt it for a moment, Mr. Chairman, that they don't understand that. It's beyond their comprehension. Talk about conflict of interest!

MR. WILLIAMS: It's part of the job requirement.

MR. KEMPF: Yes, well, I tried to get the job requirements, as the member will remember, in question period a year ago. How did he get the job?

MR. WILLIAMS: Maybe he had a master's degree.

MR. KEMPF: No, he had a Social Credit card. That's what he had. That made him eligible for the job. That's what makes all of these political hacks eligible, Mr. Chairman.

[Mr. Pelton in the chair.]

Interjections.

MR. KEMPF: Oh, we've hit a nerve. The Minister for International Business and Immigration (Hon. J. Jansen) chatters away. He's just home from a booze cruise, and he chatters away. They know all about these things that are happening in British Columbia.

MR. WILLIAMS: You've hit a nerve.

MR. KEMPF: Well, they've got a lot of it, Mr. Member.

Mr. Chairman, I've asked several questions, and I'll sit down and wait for the answers from the minister.

HON. MR. VEITCH: I thoroughly enjoyed my old friend for Omineca. He was in full flight. He's almost harking back to the days in 1976 when I moved the first Address in Reply to the Speech from the Throne for the new Social Credit government and he seconded it. It was almost as good a speech but not quite.

MR. KEMPF: In those days it was Social Credit.

HON. MR. VEITCH: You know, Mr. Chairman, I never take umbrage at anything that member says, because he's essentially a good fellow. But when I have a slow learner telling me I'm a slow learner, then I fall right out of the buggy; I'm sorry.

Power under this system has been given to the people, and this hon. member doesn't seem to understand it. It's been given to the people out there. Decision-making is now from the bottom up rather than the top down.

I realize that the hon. member has lived so far and so long away from his constituency — on the rock here in Victoria — that he's forgotten what Bums Lake is all about. But there are many people in Burns Lake who would tell you that you're incorrect in your assumption.

[ Page 7648 ]

He talks about problems. Everybody in the north — and I spent most of the weekend before last touring up in the north — understands problems, but northerners know how to turn problems into opportunities. They know how to work with governments and they know how to work with their MLAs to make things happen.

What are we doing for Omineca? Either the hon. member for Omineca doesn't know or he doesn't want to admit he doesn't know about the Gregory Forest Products situation, or it's just not convenient for him politically. We worked with the mill operation and the mill operator to help get his mill into operation at Fort St. James. It was a $4 million project, and the ministry worked hard with the Royal Bank, the FBDB and the federal government on his side to ensure that the mill did not fail. We kept it going. We kept it working and it was kept working through the efforts of that great minister of state from that area over there. I can tell you that right now.

He kept asking me about $700,000 or something. I suggest, when you get around to that minister and his proper estimates, you might ask him those questions. But you also asked me what we're doing in our area. I can tell you, my friend, that we work out of the government agent's office in New Westminster — a beautiful downtown New Westminster office in an opposition riding — and we've had literally thousands of inquiries flow through that office — people looking for help in everything, but mostly on economic development issues. We have a very small staff there, and they are continually going out to all regions of the province, holding meetings and inviting MLAs to attend those meetings as well. Also, there are information meetings for people as to how to access government programs, how to work with the western diversification fund, and how to start, work and expand as a small business. They are being attended. I haven't got the list right here in front of me. I'll get it for you after lunch. We have had literally hundreds of people attend those particular meetings.

What are we going to do with Bond Brothers? Well, I'm sure that the minister of state for that area will be looking at that, now that you've communicated it in this House. I don't know if you ever picked up the phone and told him about your problems. You'd rather be political in here. That's unlike you, sir; I can't quite understand why you're being political.

I tell you, we're doing things all over the province Projects have been initiated in the past year in the Prince George area. They've been assisted by my ministry's programs. FMC is a $65 million project Prince George Wood is a $5 million project. Woodland Windows is a $4 million project. Then we talk about the Gregory Forest project in Fort St. James, which is a $4 million project. It's happening all over northern British Columbia. British Columbia, by and large, from an economic point of view, is on the ascendancy; there is no question about that. There are some areas that have resisted that trend. We are working through the ministers of state and the MLAs — wherever they'll work with us — in each and every one of those regions to bring in investment from other areas.

It's interesting that the hon. member wanted to know how he could get on the transportation committee. He went through two red lights here, and almost got hit in the process, telling us that the darn thing was no good at all. Yet he says: "I want to get on the committee." Well, you can't have it both ways, hon. member.

MR. JONES: You just want yes-men.

HON. MR. VEITCH: The best way is to talk to the hon. minister of state. I'm sure that he would be pleased to have you participate. All MLAs — if they wish to be — are ex officio members of any committee of state. We have even had a couple of NDP members show up at some of our meetings, but most of them don't do it. The two who have — I won't embarrass them in front of their colleagues in the House, but I can tell you....

[11:30]

AN HON. MEMBER: No names.

HON. MR. VEITCH: No, no names. The two who have....

MR. LOVICK: Name names. We can take it.

AN HON. MEMBER: Don't embarrass them.

HON. MR. VEITCH: I won't embarrass them. I thank the two who have attended for their participation and I thank them for coming there and working within the system to help support their people. You may not like the system. I didn't like the system that was in place from 1972 to 1975. I abhorred it. But wherever I could, I tried to work within that system to try and help people. You might do the same thing and take a lesson from that.

I'll tell you that the mayors and the people, especially in the north, are extremely receptive to this initiative. As W.A.C. Bennett used to say: "It's 3,000 miles one way to Ottawa and 30,000 miles the other way." It's just as far from Burns Lake to Victoria, hon. friend. This is a way of bringing information, a way of ' bringing help closer to the people in a particular area.

It's a new system. It needs some fine-tuning. I would suggest, with the greatest of deference, that the best way to help these things is to get on board and be part of the process, not part of the problem, and work with things to make them work. If you don't believe that decentralizing and taking decisionmaking out to the people is a good thing, then you and I believe in two very different philosophies. I always have. I have always believed that in a democracy the government really is the people.

[Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.1

[ Page 7649 ]

This regionalization initiative is the essence of democracy. It is new. It's starting to work here. It's being copied all over the world. You watch. It will be here for years and years to come in this province and throughout the world, hon. member.

MR. KEMPF: The minister talks about W.A.C. Bennett. Really, Mr. Chairman, I hope against hope that he doesn't put either himself or the present administration in the same category as W.A.C. Bennett. Mr. W.A.C. Bennett would turn twice in his grave if he saw what this so-called Social Credit government is doing to British Columbia today.

Social Credit was once a proud party — a progressive party in British Columbia. It's no longer that today, thanks to the present administration, and that hurts me, because I have been a member of that party for some 30 years.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Are you still a member?

MR. KEMPF: Yes, I am. I'm a life member because I believe in the party — not in this administration, but in the party.

Mr. Chairman, I want to talk for a moment.... We talk lots about economic development. I want to ask the minister how it is that a government really concerned about economic development allowed the Aluminum Co. of Canada to proceed with the hydroelectric project at Kemano prior to living up to their promise, their commitment, to the people of north central British Columbia, and in particular Vanderhoof, to proceed with a pulp mill there. How is it that they allowed the Aluminum Co. of Canada to go ahead with a project which will only result in the export of hydroelectricity? That's the object, you know. They never intended to build a pulp mill. They're now drilling the tunnel to produce more electricity, of which they now have an abundance. For what reason?

The promise to the people of north-central B.C. was to build a pulp mill so that at least a portion of that hydroelectricity would be utilized for industry to create jobs in British Columbia. If this government is so interested, so concerned about economic development, how is it that they allowed that international corporation to proceed with only part of their promised development? Nothing is being done with respect to building a pulp mill in Vanderhoof; and I would suggest, nothing will be done now that they're building their hydroelectric project, now that they will do what they wanted to do in the first place: provide hydroelectricity for sale rather than the utilization of that hydroelectricity, as was their first intent with Kemano 1. Why was it that this government allowed them to do that? Why did they allow them to go ahead with the hydroelectric project prior to laying a foundation for a promised pulp mill in Vanderhoof?

While you are at it, Mr. Minister, will you find out what they are going to do with that hydroelectricity when they start producing it? Besides the people I represent, the people of the entire province of British Columbia will be interested in that response.

You can be as cute as you like. You can stand up for 20 minutes and say nothing, as you usually do. But you've got to answer to the people of north-central British Columbia, about whom you seem so concerned when you talk about sustained development. Why did this government allow the Aluminum Co. of Canada to go ahead to produce hydroelectricity to export, Mr. Minister?

HON. MR. VEITCH: It's my understanding that Alcan has a proposal call out at the present time looking for a venture partner for a pulp mill at Vanderhoof. We will — and I'm glad that you brought this to our attention — get the information to you and get you up to date just as much as we can. We have that information in our shop, and we will be able to get back to you on it.

It's interesting. We have all heard estimates as to how much hydro power we will have in the province of British Columbia and how many years — hundreds of years, whatever — will be there by way of reserves. There is so much interest in British Columbia right now in terms of major projects. Major projects are projects that are either on the drawing boards in a reasonable sort of way — not something envisaged but something on the drawing-boards — or actually being started. There are $24 billion worth of projects either on the drawing-boards or in progress...

HON. MR. MICHAEL: How much?

HON. MR. VEITCH: Twenty-four billion.

...in the province of British Columbia at the present time. I will get the list for you, if you like, and we can make that available to you afterwards. I can tell you that there is going to be a tremendous demand for electricity in this province in the years to come. Alcan may very well provide some of that electricity and fill some of that demand. They're like any other experienced corporation. They don't do things if they feel they can't sell the product that they're going to turn out as a result of spending millions of dollars.

There's going to be a tremendous demand for electricity in British Columbia. We're going to have to address that demand very quickly, because the eyes of the world are looking at British Columbia as a jurisdiction with tremendous opportunities. We are located very close to the American border; we're situated on the Pacific Rim. We are geographically well situated, and they see the stable government that has been in this province for 34 out of 37 years. That's one of their prime concerns. There is tremendous interest in British Columbia, and there are going to be more and more demands put on us to provide electrical power in the future.

As far as the proposed pulp mills go, I've said, hon. member, that Alcan — as you're probably well aware — has put out a proposal call. We'll find out where that is and get the information back to you. I

[ Page 7650 ]

can tell you that hardly a day goes by when we don't have someone wanting to establish a pulp mill in British Columbia. We're working on several major projects, but on projects that don't make us only — while we welcome pulp mill projects — hewers of wood and drawers of water. We're diversifying all over the province in many ways.

Interjection.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Hold your hat, hon. member. It's happening to you; it's happening in your area as well.

MR. KEMPF: We've heard from Alcan for some three or four years now about the venture-partner situation. We heard a lot about it prior to their beginning to construct the hydroelectric side of Kemano 2. But what I find most amazing is that the minister just asked this House to believe.... I see the Minister of Energy (Hon. Mr. Davis) in the House, and I'll be asking these same questions in his estimates. But because this minister of economic development and everything in the province talked about sustained development, I thought it only right, on behalf of the people whom I represent, to canvass it in these estimates as well.

Is the minister expecting this House to believe that there was no agreement between the Aluminum Co of Canada and B.C. Hydro with respect to the sale of the power they're going to develop in the project now underway, before they started the project, before they spent the multimillions of dollars that it's going to cost to double the hydroelectric output of Kemano? Is the minister saying to this House that the government had no knowledge — that in fact Hydro had no agreement to purchase that electricity, seeing that the Aluminum Co. of Canada is hooked into the B.C. Hydro grid provincewide? Is the minister telling me there's no agreement? Is the minister telling me that the government did not know of an agreement and therefore allowed the Aluminum Co. of Canada to renege on their promise to the people of Vanderhoof — and not just to Vanderhoof but Fort St. James and Fraser Lake as well — to build a pulp mill in order to at least partially utilize that hydroelectricity, which they themselves have no use for because they're overdeveloped now as far as their needs for hydroelectricity are concerned?

MR. PETERSON: Is that question in order?

MR. KEMPF: Yes, most definitely it's in order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would ask the hon. member to address the Chair, please.

MR. KEMPF: Mr. Chairman, the government Whip asks whether that question is in order. Most definitely it's in order. Is that not economic development? Is the construction of a hydroelectric project at Kemano...?

MR. PETERSON: Point of order. I would ask if those questions are in order. It would appear to me that it would be more suitable to ask them during the estimates of the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources.

[11:45]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the member for Omineca please continue.

MR. KEMPF: I didn't create the ministries of state in British Columbia; that administration did. They're the ones who talk about economic development, and I would suggest it's in order to talk about economic development in every one of those ministers' estimates. If not there, where? I'll talk about them in the estimates of the Minister of Energy; you bet I will. In fact, I'm giving the Minister of Energy a chance to get the answers before his estimates come before the House. What more can I do to help him?

Is that why the government allowed the Aluminum Co. of Canada to proceed with the hydroelectric side of Kemano 2 before living up to their promise to the people of north-central British Columbia that they were going to build a pulp mill prior to creating that hydroelectricity, in order that they would utilize some of it themselves? That's all I'm asking. It's a very simple question. Phone B.C. Hydro. Phone Mr. Bell and say: "Is there any agreement between B.C. Hydro and the Aluminum Co. of Canada with respect to the sale and purchase of hydroelectricity?" If there isn't, I don't know what the Aluminum Co. of Canada is going to do with that electricity when the hydro project is completed and they double the output of Kemano. What are they going to do with it?

HON. MR. VEITCH: They're going to use it in British Columbia.

MR. KEMPF: How, Mr. Minister? I accept that. All I want to know is how. How is that going to be done? Where are they going to use it? They're well underway in building the tunnel which will provide the hydroelectricity, but they haven't laid one ounce of concrete in Vanderhoof for the pulp mill that they promised. So I think it's incumbent upon the minister of state for everything to lean back to his colleague the Minister of Energy and say: "What agreement does Hydro have with the Aluminum Co. of Canada for the sale of that hydroelectric power that is not needed?" I'm not saying it's not going to be needed ten, 15 or 20 years in the future, but it is not needed now.

What is the agreement? Hydro has too much hydroelectricity now, at times, to supply British Columbia, and they export it. What is going to happen with that power? I have no problem with the hydroelectric project going ahead. I just want to see the government phone Mr. Rich. Pick up your phone. I've got the number in my office if you wish it, Mr. Minister. Phone Mr. Rich and say: "Why haven't you lived up to your commitment to the people of north-central British Columbia prior to starting the

[ Page 7651 ]

hydroelectric project?" That's all I ask. It's very simple — a mere phone call.

Perhaps the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources can save you the trouble. Perhaps he can tell you. That's all I'm asking. What's the deal between the Aluminum Co. of Canada and B.C. Hydro with respect to that power that will be produced at Kemano?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The second member for Dewdney requests leave to make an introduction. Shall leave be granted?

Leave granted.

MR. JACOBSEN: This morning we have 22 grades 4 and 5 students from Fairview Elementary School in Maple Ridge visiting the Legislature, along with their teacher, Miss Briscoe, and several adult escorts. They've had a rousing example of the Legislature in action. On behalf of the first member for Dewdney (Mr. Pelton) and myself, I'd like the House to give them a warm welcome.

HON. MR. VEITCH: I know the hon. member for Omineca has had his whole research staff working on this issue for quite a long time.

MR. LOVICK: Which you generously provide him with.

HON. MR. VEITCH: Which the Legislature and the people of British Columbia generously provide him with. People pay for everything that happens around here.

I will get back to the hon. member — as I said I would before — with respect to the proposal call that Alcan has put out for a joint venture for a pulp mill at Vanderhoof. I can tell you what my information is, and you'll want to pursue this further and in more detail with the Minister of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources when he comes up for his estimates. How will we deliver the power? I don't want to be facetious about this, but it will be through transmission lines, of course.

MRS. BOONE: No. That's too cute.

HON. MR. VEITCH: All right. It's up to the private sector, hon. member, to consume this electricity, and there is a tremendous need within British Columbia. It's my information that this power will not be exported; it will be consumed in British Columbia. They have done their research at Alcan, they have done their research at Hydro, we've done our research at our level, and the demand is going to be there. It's going to exceed even the demand for power that will come from Kemano 2. And when they build this wonderful power-generating entity, it will mean that the people of British Columbia, through Hydro, won't have to go out and borrow and build another facility as quickly as they might have had to if this was not in place.

I think the development is good for the people of British Columbia. I know it's good for your area; I think you would agree with that. It's good news for British Columbia. On the issue of the pulp mill: we'll find out about it. We'll get you development in that area. Whether it be pulp mills, or pulp mills and something else, it will come. Just work with the people, with the government, hon. member. Whether you work with it or don't work with it, it's going to happen anyway. We promise you there's going to be development in that area.

We'll find out specifically about this pulp mill. I have staff checking on it at the present time.

MR. KEMPF: The minister makes fun of research. I've done my research on this one, and if he wants to hear of the benefits or the non-benefits of Kemano 2 to my constituents, we can spend all summer here talking about just that.

Mr. Chairman, the minister didn't answer my question. And again, the Minister of Energy is right behind him. Is the minister telling this House that there is no deal between the Aluminum Co. of Canada and B.C. Hydro with regard to the sale and purchase of that new hydroelectricity?

MR. WILLIAMS: There was a press release.

MR. KEMPF: No, Mr. Member, there was no press release. That's the very curious thing. This government makes such a big thing of all economic development in British Columbia, however small. Why was there no great publicity with respect to the construction of this hydroelectric generating facility? Why were there not numerous press releases, as there are in other such cases? Did the government not really want the people of British Columbia to fully understand what's going on at Kemano? Did the government want to be very quiet with respect to that particular development and not wish to highlight the downside of that development? I can assure the minister there is a great downside of that development to the people I represent. Did they not want to once again put a stick into that hornets' nest to alert the people of the Nechako Valley that their river would be reduced to less than half its present flow and to alert the people living along Ootsa Lake that when that reservoir — they don't call it a lake anymore; they call it a reservoir — is drawn down, areas of their once beautiful and proud valley will look like a moonscape? Is that why the government kept it very quiet?

I don't want to keep it quiet. I think the people I represent have a right to know what is going on. The Aluminum Co. of Canada made a great mistake when they promised that pulp mill in the central interior as an offset to the problems they would create. There are not only no advantages to the people I represent

[ Page 7652 ]

from Kemano 2; there isn't even an advantage with regard to the construction of the project, when it comes to my constituents. If you don't know that, you simply don't understand — nor central British Columbia, because that entire problem will lie squarely within the boundaries of my constituency. If the Aluminum Co. of Canada thinks it's going to get away with simply building a hydroelectric project from which they can sell power, rather than create any advantages or jobs for the people I represent, it has another thought coming.

There will be a day of reckoning, and in order that the minister completely rethinks his answer, I move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

The House resumed; Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.

The committee, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. Mr. Veitch moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 11:58 a.m.