[ Page 7055 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Solicitor-General estimates. (Hon. Mr. Ree)

On vote 67: minister's office –– 7055

Mr. Guno

Mr. Rose

Mr. G. Hanson

Mr. Lovick

Mr. G. Janssen

The House met at 10:06 a.m.

Prayers.

MR. KEMPF: It's my great pleasure to introduce to the House a lady who's with us this morning in the gallery, Maxine Douglas from Telkwa. Maxine is a very energetic northerner. She's here to attempt to make some sense out of the new Provincial Tourism Advisory Council. I think she's learned a lot about what happens in Victoria, and hopefully, will go back to Omineca and tell them just exactly how she saw it. Mr. Speaker, I would ask the whole House to make her welcome.

MR. CHALMERS: On behalf of my colleague the first member for Okanagan South (Mr. Serwa) and myself, I'd like to introduce to you some 47 grade 7 students from the Lakeview Heights school band, from the great constituency of Okanagan South. They are accompanied by their instructor, Mr. Robin Jarman. I would ask that everybody make them welcome, please.

Orders of the Day

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I call Committee of Supply.

The House in committee of Supply; Mr. Pelton in the chair,

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF

SOLICITOR-GENERAL

On vote 67: minister's office, $248,681 (continued).

HON. MR. REE: Yesterday afternoon, Mr. Chairman, in answering a question from the hon. member for Coquitlam-Moody (Mr. Rose), I indicated that there would be three additional personnel assigned for policing at Belcarra this year. I wish to correct that at this point and indicate that there will be two regular-force RCMP — not three auxiliaries — policing, commencing June 1 through to, I think, the end of September. It's an upgrading in qualifications of police; it is not an increase in personnel over what it was last year.

MR. GUNO: I hope the Solicitor-General is rested and has had his last smoke.

What we from this side of the House want to do this morning is move from PEP. The minister may feel we've spent an inordinate amount of time on this subject, but given the importance of the program and the seeming lack of appreciation on the part of the Solicitor-General as to the state of things in that particular area, we felt it was important enough to keep emphasizing the need to look at the whole situation again and maybe give it a higher priority.

I want to move to the whole idea of the justice system behind the walls and especially how it affects the native people. I think the minister himself acknowledged in his opening remarks that this is one of the areas that needs more scrutiny, and we certainly will do that this morning.

As a native person, I know painfully well that our people are disproportionately represented in provincial jails. It's ironic that in the fifties and sixties, or even earlier, it was the Indian residential school. In fact, I served four years in one of those institutions — and "served" is the right term, although my only offence was being an Indian. Today's equivalent is the provincial jail. We have the phenomenon throughout western Canada.... In Saskatchewan, almost the majority of the prison population are native people. Here in B.C. it's a little less dramatic, but in terms of the simplest measure of justice it's still a very bad situation: something like 16 percent of a group of people who only represent something like 3 to 5 percent of the population. I happen to think that this number is rather conservative. The definition of an Indian is really quite different when it comes to the authorities trying to get a handle on the number of native people in prisons.

There is report which, I guess, was commissioned by the Canadian Bar Association. It's entitled "Locking Up Natives in Canada: A Report of the Committee of the Canadian Bar Association on Imprisonment and Release." It was done by Prof. Michael Jackson, an old professor of mine in the University of British Columbia law school, and was published in June 1988. He has some very interesting things to say about the whole phenomenon of overrepresentation of native people in prisons. I'm just wondering if the Solicitor-General has had a chance to look at it. If he has, I would be interested to know if he has any comments or if he is planning to act on some of the recommendations in that report.

The phenomenon of overrepresentation of indigenous people is not unique to Canada. In fact, in Professor Jackson's report he cites the Australian Law Reform Commission report entitled "The Recognition of Aboriginal Customary Laws, " which was published in 1965. In Australia, and especially Western Australia — this is 1965; that was some years ago, and I don't think the situation has changed too much — the aborigines constituted 2.5 percent of the state's population. But in terms of the conviction rate, it was something like 11 percent of the offences and 25 percent of the prison population. This overrepresentation, according to this report, is not only the result of different patterns of criminality but of differences in arrest, prosecution, and sentencing practices.

[10:15]

I listened to the former Attorney-General lamenting yesterday the fact that the Solicitor-General's and the Attorney-General's functions were being separated, but that there are some issues that are inextricably linked. I agree with him as far as that's concerned, especially on this issue, because the over-

[ Page 7056 ]

representation is really the product of arrests. I think that falls into your bailiwick.

Let's face it: I think I spent one session at Simon Fraser studying criminology, and I know that there is a well-known phenomenon on the part of the police, who are often white Anglo-Saxon males, who tend to exercise their discretion in terms of arrest and in terms of sending a lot of young native people through the criminal justice system more readily than they do with their non-Indian counterparts. Certainly in terms of prosecution, there is often a tremendous gap in the severity of sentences handed down, and there are studies to back that up. As for sentencing practices, many native people cannot afford lawyers and often have to make do with court workers. Although they are doing a fine job, they are not substitutes for lawyers.

For the most part, many just don't understand the system or the significance or implication of readily pleading guilty and so are ending up in jails more often than their white counterparts. It's an area that falls within the purview of the Attorney-General, and I spoke about the need for an alternative native justice system in the situation in Chilcotin. The Attorney-General then said that he was going to look into it. I understand that he took something like a one-day trip to that area and spoke to a few people. I hope that's not going to be what he calls a comprehensive review of this very sad problem in our province. At any rate, as I said, the rate of imprisonment of aboriginal people is something like 16 times over that of non-aboriginal people.

What are the root causes? It bears examination, and I think it can be attributed to the social and economic conditions within which our native people grow and live. Essentially the problem is economic. Native people are disproportionately impoverished. There is a distinct correlation between economic deprivation and marginality. In other words, native people are not any more criminal than their white counterparts; they just happen to be the poorest members of this society.

We also have to look at other factors. I don't think that the economic factor is the only one, and certainly the study points that out. As it graphically puts it, there is the equation of being drunk, Indian and in prison. That's about as graphic as you can put that problem. Very often the problem is alcohol, and what I'm leading up to here is what happens once they're behind the prison walls. I daresay that the process is the product of colonization, pure and simple.

In Canada and in British Columbia, we see the process of dispossession, alienation and despair. This is why we on this side of the House have tried to nail down this government's policy on the recognition of aboriginal title, because it's inextricably linked with the whole problem of overrepresentation in jails in terms of economic deprivation. It's a symptom of a greater malaise.

Look at the number of young Indians who commit suicide in this province. It's one of the sad phenomena, but I don't think it's very well recognized by the general public. If such a phenomenon were to happen in our larger society, there would be a huge hue and cry for some solution, but here we simply accept the fact that a lot of young people are killing themselves. But they're not killing themselves; they're killing themselves slowly in prisons. It's a tragedy, and I would like to hear the Solicitor-General's comments on this.

I think that any one of us.... You can go to any major centre in British Columbia and see our people in the streets. In the United States they call them the underclass. Unfortunately, that's our underclass here in Canada and in British Columbia. As an Indian, all I can say is that but for the grace of God, there go I.

Tom Berger, in his report on the Mackenzie Valley pipeline inquiry, saw this effect as being a product of rapid industrialization in the north severing very vital links such as links between native people and their past, their culturally preferred economic life, their individual, familial and political self-respect. I have seen this process of broken linkages. This is not a forum to discuss the need for real self-government for native people; we'll discuss it when we have the Minister Responsible for Native Affairs (Hon. Mr. Weisgerber). I thought I should put this in context, because I think it's important to understand some of the history that lies behind this overrepresentation.

What we need is to examine what Prof. Michael Jackson calls in his report "the darkest reaches of the criminal justice system: the prisons." As he puts it: "It's the most critical issue of justice behind the walls." We have to go beyond the question of human rights, the right to human dignity, and just take a look at some of the most practical measures that can be introduced in terms of at least alleviating some of the situations that our native people face when they are behind those prison walls.

The conclusion is clear, Mr. Chairman: there are an ever-increasing number of native people going to jail. It's not just native people. Since the seventies, I think, there has been a greater tendency in Canada and the United States to lock people up. It just happens that the native people are overrepresented in that whole process.

In terms of practical solutions, there has to be some effort to understand the spiritual and cultural background of native offenders. I think it is essential. At page 85 of Professor Jackson's report, he quotes from the Correctional Law Review, working paper No. 7, entitled "Correctional Issues Affecting Native People":

"First, it is very difficult for non-native correctional workers to understand the social, cultural, spiritual and religious background of native offenders and thus to understand the dimension which affects many of them most strongly. The greater the lack of mutual understanding, the more compounded become the difficulties of running a correctional program.

"Second, even where native offenders make model prisoners in the sense that they cause little or no trouble in the institution, there has been a marked lack of success in persuading native offenders to participate actively in programs of education and counselling provided for the general population. There appears to be a consensus among correctional

[ Page 7057 ]

authorities and aboriginal groups that a significant problem is that many native offenders appear to be largely unfamiliar with the workings of the correctional system "

MR. CHAIRMAN: Sorry, hon. member, but your time has expired under standing orders.

MR. ROSE: I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that my colleague was just about to get to a very important part of his remarks. I think what he has to say is important for all of us, because we live in a society with a lot of poor people. In the United States blacks are overrepresented in the prison population, and here the same thing is true of native Canadians. So what it says is that if you're poor and also a visible minority in our society, in either of these two cultures, you're more likely to end up in prison than if you're part of the mainstream.

MR. GUNO: I thank my colleague for providing me with the opportunity to continue.

As I was saying, there are two very clear problems in prison: first, the lack of understanding on the part of prison staff; and secondly, the fact that native offenders are not as ready to take advantage of the opportunities, limited as they may be in our jails. It's a problem that needs to be addressed, and I'm interested to hear what the Solicitor-General has to say about it.

This is an excellent report. Another one, which I think has been under consideration by the Attorney-General (Hon. S.D. Smith), is "Unlocking Aboriginal Justice, " an application by the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council for a kind of alternative approach. This report identifies two broad approaches. The first, which is probably the most far-reaching, would involve the enactment of legislation to enable native people to assume control of correctional processes that affect them. It's enabling legislation that I think the Solicitor-General might well consider. The second one, of course, is the approach proposed by the Correctional Law Review. It's designed to ameliorate the problem faced by native offenders and involves the reform of existing correctional legislation in less fundamental ways, where the focus of control remains with the existing correctional systems.

I'd like to give the minister some opportunity to respond and hear what he has to say about some of these approaches.

HON. MR. REE: The member for Atlin discusses a very serious problem. I raised it in my opening address on the estimates because this government is concerned with the problem he's discussing, and we have taken many initiatives towards it. We can never do enough, because of the problems that are out there, but we can continue to work on it, and the ministry and the government will be doing that. In fact, a year ago the government appointed a Minister Responsible for Native Affairs as an indication of our concerns.

I have looked at and read the report that the member discusses, and I concur with its conclusions as to the problems of our native people. As a result of that report and the justice reform report, we in the ministry are represented on the justice Reform Committee. In fact, we consider it so important that our representation on that committee is the assistant deputy minister of corrections, who, with the committee and individual members of the committee, will be discussing the problems with the native community. The member mentioned that the Attorney-General spent one day there. The Justice Reform Committee dealing with native affairs will be spending far more than one day, because, as the member states and as we well know, it's a problem that can't be looked at in just one day. As I say, the members of the committee will be coming back with their recommendations.

[10:30]

As far as the native peoples are concerned, I think we in B.C. actually have a better record in our correctional institutions than any other province. Although I stated that it's 16 percent as compared to the 6 percent of the population, the percentage is far higher in other provinces. In fact, it's 60 percent in Saskatchewan; there they have a very serious problem. We can't rest on our laurels just because our record happens to be better than other provinces. It has to be continually addressed.

[Mr. Rose in the chair.]

We in the ministry have this year added $300,000 to the corrections side of the ministry, solely for native programs within the corrections branch. I recognize that it's probably not sufficient in the long run, but it's certainly a start for this year and should be recognized as that.

We have programs for encouraging native people to become correctional officers, although unfortunately we've had very few of them apply. If we did, we certainly would be able to put them to good use, because we could use them where we could get a better understanding of some of the prisoners we have with their background.

I'm also proud that in our corrections branch of the ministry a very large percentage of those who go before the court system end up on community programs as opposed to incarceration. In 1987-1988, when we had 347 adult native people incarcerated, we had 1,698 adult natives on community programs. In other words, they are diverted out of the actual jails, as the member was mentioning earlier. That is a 6- or 7-1 ratio. I think that's a very good ratio. Fortunately, it's a far higher ratio when you look at the youths; we ended up with 66 youths incarcerated during the year and 713 on community programs. I think that's a record that we can be proud of, in that we are diverting them into community programs rather than incarceration.

[Mr. Pelton in the chair.]

We also have selectively hired and placed people to minister to the native people. We have two native liaison workers at the Kamloops and Prince George

[ Page 7058 ]

Regional Correctional Centres. Mind you, this is funded by the Ministry of Attorney-General. There are approximately six contracts with native groups to provide community service work supervision in northwestern B.C. We have two native cultural-residential attendance programs for youth located in the Queen Charlottes and Williams Lake areas. We have one native victim-offender reconciliation program at Fort Ware. We have native staffing and native cultural programs at Prince George Youth Containment Centre; actually, that's to be opened on June 5, next Monday, when I go up to open the youth custody centre. And we have one native halfway house in Vancouver.

We are, as I said, very concerned with the problem. We are working toward solving it. I don't know when it would ever be solved, if at all possible. It certainly is not a problem that can be swept under the carpet. It's one that has to be addressed up front, and I feel the government is doing that. We are also, as you're aware, Mr. Chairman, through the Ministry of Labour and Consumer Services, actively applying resources to drug and alcohol abuse within the native community. That is a serious program that this government is promoting.

MR. GUNO: I have just a few questions, and my colleague the first member for Victoria (Mr. G. Hanson) is going to have a few questions.

You talk about the many initiatives, and I applaud some of the efforts that have been made. As you have pointed out, it's a complex problem. But I'm not as pessimistic about the eventual solution. I think it's possible. I think that if we have the political will and can put our money where our mouth is, it can happen.

[Mr. Rogers in the chair.]

I'm interested to know just how much is allocated in the budget, or if there's been any significant increase over the years, and if not, whether you have recognized that it is a very big problem and that there are some very practical measures that can be taken. What it requires is just more resources. I'm interested to hear whether or not there has been a consequent increase in the budget.

HON. MR. REE: As I stated, we have specifically set aside $300,000 towards an approach of developing plans for counselling and community programs and those sorts of things. The results of the community programs end up saving dollars, so we don't necessarily feel that putting in unlimited dollars will solve the overall problem. We would love to get the native people themselves in programs with their own direction and solving some of their problems.

You can't say $300,000 is the only money directed towards native programs. That is specifically allocated for natives. A lot of the native people who are in community programs within the province are on the general side of the ledger — you know, our normal correctional system of looking after them, advising them, counselling them, and not directed.... You don't allocate it as being for native people.

MR. GUNO: In terms of the consultation process, you mention that this has become part of the Justice Reform Committee. I just wonder what other process of consultation is going on. You say there were many initiatives in terms of understanding the problem. Have you engaged in a dialogue with the various tribal councils, band councils and Indian organizations that are set up to deal with these kinds of problems? What have you been doing in terms of understanding the problem better?

HON. MR. REE: The social and economic problems of native people are not fully with this minister, and I think the member appreciates that. I'm not in a position to completely reply to his overall question.

Within the ministry, however, I've indicated that we have a member sitting on the Justice Reform Committee that is going out to talk with and listen to the native community. We have, as the member knows, a committee under the chairmanship of the member for Yale-Lillooet (Mr. Rabbitt) out talking to native people about their problems. We have a minister who's responsible and a branch of his ministry, with, I think, an assistant deputy minister. There is a broad range of people within government who are out and are concerned with the difficulties and the problems that native people have in this province.

As far as this ministry is concerned, certainly while they are within the custody of the ministry, we try to give them counselling as such, and we get them out on community programs that are organized in conjunction with other branches of government. So it's not just a one-ministry shot at the people in the correctional institutes, and this ministry is particularly concerned with those within that institutional setting.

MR. G. HANSON: Picking up on the line of questioning of my colleague from Atlin, this is not a new problem; this is a problem that has been discussed in this House as long as the Solicitor-General and I have been here. It's been raised on many occasions by me. The Jackson report states that aboriginal people in British Columbia and Alberta constitute somewhere between 3 percent and 5 percent of the population, yet represent 16 percent to 17 percent of the incarcerated population. That's been going on for a long time now.

I listened to my colleague from Atlin talking about the distinct cultural attributes and differences that exist with native people which are not addressed in the correctional system. That leads to what has been called in the Canadian Human Rights Commission annual report of '88.... They refer to the native peoples' perception of the judicial and correctional system as "white law, " because they don't feel a part of it and they don't feel that they get their fair day in court. It relates to language, understanding and culture.

[ Page 7059 ]

In this Human Rights Commission report.... For example, let's just take programs in correctional institutions that deal with native concerns. There's a prohibition against native people exercising their own spirituality, their own religious beliefs. They don't really feel that there are programs that address their interests, their needs and the kind of situation they find themselves in. That is stated very clearly on page 20 of the report. It's rather short, but I think it's worth quoting:

"The same can be said of both the court system and the correctional institutions. Over the last decade the commission has had to deal with a number of complaints from native inmates. Sometimes they allege individual acts of discrimination, but often they refer to what are more properly described as system wide problems: a prohibition against engaging in native spiritual practices, for example, or the absence of programs that are geared to native interests and concerns.

"The prison authorities have shown some flexibility in dealing with these complaints, but much more is called for. The commission will deal promptly with any allegation that federal penitentiaries discriminate against natives, but correctional officials must also expand the opportunity of native inmates to express their difference and ensure that appropriate cultural and educational programs are available."

I might just point out that following from that in Michael Jackson's report of June 1988, on page 5 he said: "There's no doubt that poverty is a factor in the overrepresentation of native people in prisons; for example, one of the most common reasons for imprisonment for a native person is the non-payment of a fine." Now surely it has to tell us something about the shortcomings of the system that we would incarcerate them — both in this province and nationally — on a level of frequency far beyond the non-native population for non-payment of fines.

If there could be a diversion program around that particular issue alone, it would substantially reduce the native population of men and women in jail. A native person who is not acquainted with the nuances of the court system, who has English as a second language and comes from a rural area, or even an urban native person, of which there are 35,000 or 40,000 in Vancouver alone.... What I'm saying is that they're not acquainted with the system.

[10:45]

We have a situation where there should be intervention at almost every stage of the process: first of all, at the court appearance — understanding clearly whether the person understands the situation they're in. What are the implications of non-payment of fines? What contact is made as a person goes into Oakalla, Wilkinson Road, Prince George or into the correctional facilities of the Fraser Valley? What sort of contact does a native person have right off the bat? What programs are in place to understand them?

One of the things that non-natives do is to lump people. Non-natives take great pride in being Scottish, Welsh, French, Cornish, Latvian, Lithuanian, from Victoria or whatever. But native people are often lumped as Indians or natives by non-natives who do not understand that the differences between Salish and Nisga'a are substantial linguistic and cultural differences. Their languages can be as different as English is from Chinese; their traditions, ideas and cultural values are tremendously diverse. Therefore we as a society, recognizing that fact, surely should have someone in place who is not simply a native liaison worker, correctional officer or police officer. There are very few native police officers in the province of British Columbia — well under 1 percent.

Interjection.

MR. G. HANSON: It's not being encouraged in the proper way then, because the response.... There are a lot of pieces to the puzzle, and there are a lot of features of reform that the native people want.

Getting back to my main point: is that liaison officer who is meeting that person a coastal Salish, an interior Salish or a Kwakiutl person? Do they have any knowledge whatsoever? It would be like the Solicitor-General going to an office to do business and meeting a person who spoke only Nisga'a and then having us expect that the particular exchange would be mutually satisfactory.

We need a massive upgrading of the level of understanding. What is the cultural breakdown of native people in this province? Are there more Carrier, Cree or Sekani? What is the population, and how does it break down on cultural grounds? What resources are in place to connect with those people, to understand where they're coming from and what the situation is? It's not simply having a native person deal with it, because they may have no knowledge of that culture, language or whatever. To what extent is a person who speaks a native language able to confer with a counsellor or a liaison person in their own language in the correctional institutes of this province? I think that would be fairly minimal.

This question has been in this House for some time. It's getting worse. Other provinces are addressing it by full-blown reform commissions where the province funds briefs and tribal organizations, so that the quality of submissions can be high, and the amount of public and aboriginal input is high. We have an Attorney-General (Hon. S.D. Smith) here who feels that he can be a one-man commission travelling through the province.

AN HON. MEMBER: The Solicitor-General.

MR. G. HANSON: No, the Attorney-General.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Most of the debate has been completely in order, but coaching from the sidelines seems to sway the particular line of debate, and it's very difficult for Hansard to follow it along. Maybe if we could just keep going the way we were, without interruptions from your colleague from Nanaimo, the whole debate would proceed in a more orderly fashion.

[ Page 7060 ]

MR. G. HANSON: For the purposes of the problem before us, I think it is important that all members, particularly the Solicitor-General and the Attorney-General, see this problem in a more whole sense and not say: "Oh, that problem is the Attorney-General's side; this is appropriately within the purview of my ministry, etc." The problem is that the judicial and correctional system has failed native people for a long time; they perceive it as white law.

Other provinces are trying to address it. It's a cost item. It's a tragic loss to incarcerate people, and certainly that population I referred to on the basis of inability or reluctance to pay fines, to have that kind of justice meted out We must look at it in a more whole way. We must understand that within this province there are 26 linguistic groups, separate languages. They clump together into seven or eight major language families. There are something like 27 or 28 tribal councils or organizations in the province, which cluster around language lines.

So I would like to say to the Solicitor-General that I'd like him to give us a bit of a report of what he thinks is in place. I'd like him also to consider what I'm saying. If we passed a policy or law in British Columbia that people of Asian ancestry would be allowed to have a liaison to explain themselves if they were incarcerated, yet we didn't give any recognition to the fact that they were Cambodian, from Hong Kong, Malayan or from somewhere else, we would obviously realize that was ridiculous.

Yet within this province, no attention at all is paid to whether a person is a Kwakiutl, Haida, Tlingit, Salish, Chilcotin, Kootenay or Gitksan. I have made that point and repeated it. You know, when we have the Canadian Human Rights Commission asking for action in the judicial and correctional area, asking for more attention to the rights of incarcerated native people to pursue their spiritual values and beliefs, it should be paid attention to. What kind of programming should be in place so that people don't just sit? I'd like the Solicitor-General to think about those things and respond, if he would.

HON. MR. REE: The member has been raising this issue in the House as long as both he and I can remember and has done an excellent job of fighting for the native people all that time. Certainly his words have not gone unheard. They are part of the effort of this government at this time. As I said earlier, there is more that we can do in the future, but we are moving. We in British Columbia, I think, have an excellent record across Canada in comparison That doesn't mean it's a good record as such, but in comparison, it's an excellent record.

You indicated the question of spirituality, the native peoples practising their — if you want to call it — religion in the institutions. I think the prohibition that you are referring to is in federal institutions more than in our provincial institutions. We are moving ahead, albeit slowly, in the opportunity for some of the native peoples to practise their spirituality. Last year we had a day — mind you, it was in the institution where the native people came in — when those incarcerated in Kamloops were able to have some dancing and spiritual activities and so on. And this year we've taken it outside the prison, and there were at least 40 native dancers participating in Kamloops at the event. From experiences like these, we can move forward into further activities or events for their spiritual participation.

You were asking about the native court workers. That is within the Ministry of Attorney-General, and it is not for me to answer the Attorney-General's estimates, except that I would mention that in his ministry he has $1.6 million allocated to native workers within the system. Certainly there may be exceptions, but nearly every native person who goes before the courts is counselled by a native court worker.

The first member for Victoria discusses the linguistic.... He indicates the problems of the multiplicity of languages in the province and the various dialects of those languages among all the tribes. It would be almost impossible to have a person available for a person who has this dialect or that dialect, but certainly one can work towards it.

We do have a program as far as this ministry is concerned, as far as police constables and corrections officers are concerned. We would love to have more of the native peoples come in for training and participate in that line of work. We have a very active auxiliary and reserve police force in the province. If some of the native peoples got involved in that, possibly they would also want to become regular constables in either the RCMP or the municipal police forces in the province. I certainly would like to have them encouraged. Mind you, there's great competition today to become a regular constable in our police forces, with the background and qualifications that those applying for the jobs have.

On the question of incarceration for non-payment of fines, I think your argument, Mr. Member, probably applies just as much to the non-native as it does to the native. The ratio is no higher for native people than for non-natives; it runs at about the same. Usually those natives and non-natives incarcerated for non-payment of fines are not prepared, for one reason or another, to pay the fine. Also, they serve straight time on that and get out as quickly as they can.

MR. GUNO: I want to support my colleague from Victoria in pointing out that we should be aware of and understand the cultural diversity within the aboriginal community. We should ensure that any programs established in prisons to deal with some of the problems with respect to native people are done in consultation with these various cultural groups, and understand that what may be appropriate for the interior people may not be so for the coastal Salish people. I think that's a very good point to emphasize.

[11:00]

As far as the non-payment of fines is concerned, it may well be that this applies to non-native people, but I think I have to repeat the sad statistics. Native people are on the bottom rung of the socioeconomic

[ Page 7061 ]

ladder. They are the poorest and often the least able to pay fines, and so are in jail more often than non-native peoples because of this non-payment of fines. I challenge the Solicitor-General's point that it's a problem that applies to everyone.

One area I want to investigate a little further is the effort being made by the minister to encourage more native people to apply for jobs as correctional workers. What sort of opportunities are in place now? What efforts are being made to encourage native people to work in our correctional centres?

HON. MR. REE: There's no active public relations program, if that is what the member is asking, with respect to recruitment of native peoples in the correctional system, but we would welcome it. If any native person who is interested would approach the local prison director and convey their interest, he would welcome this sort of thing with open arms. There is no active public relations advertising, if that is what the member is asking. We would certainly encourage any member of the native peoples to come forward, and we would try to provide the appropriate training for corrections. There are certain educational requirements — at least grade 12, 1 believe — and health requirements. Although I can't tell you the numbers, native people were recruited for Prince George.

[Mr. Rabbitt in the chair.]

MR. G. HANSON: In the Jackson report there are a series of recommendations which might be fruitful to just quickly go through. One of them is an alternative native justice system to actually look at areas where tribal justice could be administered. My colleague from Atlin referred to this earlier. There are areas of family law where experiments have been made. I know that on Vancouver Island there was a County Court judge who looked at a custody case, and they re-established and resurrected a council of elders that had not been in existence since 1920. That council of elders deliberated on the matter and made a recommendation to the judge, and all reports are that it was a very satisfactory recommendation indeed. I think there are many areas in which the elders within the tribal organizations can play a major role as advisers.

I would commend to the Solicitor-General an examination of the possibility of involving tribal organizations and asking them to have an advisory body of elders which might give suggestions that his staff have not considered and that could be useful. Obviously it's in everyone's interest to reduce those statistics. If recommendations could come forward from the tribal organizations and a council of elders on how some of those things could apply, I think it would be worth pursuing.

Certainly in the Jackson report they talk about an alternative native justice system, and I think one of the components of that would be more say, more input into what's happening. I think a two-way operation would benefit this particular ministry, and it would also have a positive impact on native people. Did the minister want to respond to that?

HON. MR. REE: Mr. Chairman, I think you will appreciate that a great part of the comments of the member really deals with the Ministry of Attorney-General and the federal system, when he gets into the courts and the court process. However, I would add that his recommendation with respect to going out and meeting with tribal councils is being pursued. I understand that is in the works at the moment with the Justice Reform Committee, which has been formed specifically to look at the Jackson report and the recommendations therein. There are plans already made to go out and visit a minimum of 30 tribal councils and talk to them about their concerns, recommendations, ideas and problems.

As I say, most of the comments, when you get into the judicial system versus the justice system, are for the Attorney-General (Hon. S.D. Smith) ; also, you're looking at federal implications, in some ways, more than provincial in changing that system.

MR. G. HANSON: I don't think we're going to get to the root of the problem until there's a recognition that the minister is in charge and is kind of warehousing the problem, and that he's deeply and inextricably associated with what occurs on the judicial side. To reduce the incarceration rate and have a more humane and responsive approach in the prisons clearly does affect him. The minister, along with the A-G, has to be part of the solution. It can't simply be: "Well, that's the Attorney-General's problem. I just deal with the flow." Otherwise we're not going to deal with the problem.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The first member for Vancouver-Little Mountain requests leave to make an introduction.

Leave granted.

MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, today we have three classes visiting, two of which I believe are in the House at the present time and one of which will follow. They are from McBride Elementary School in the great constituency of Vancouver-Little Mountain. On behalf of my colleague from Vancouver-Little Mountain (Mr. Mowat) and all members of the House, I would like to ask the House to welcome the pupils, who are accompanied by Mr. Patterson, Mr. Morrison, Miss Carlton and Mrs. Potts. We want the classes to know how very welcome they are in our capital and in our legislative buildings.

HON. MR. REE: Mr. Chairman, to the first member for Victoria, that is the very reason that we have a high-level representative — the assistant deputy minister of corrections — on the committee. We recognize the concerns and our part in it, but the basic movement, the basic direction, in a sense is in the Attorney-General's ministry. As I say, I'm not going

[ Page 7062 ]

to present his estimates here today; I'm happy with my own.

MR. G. HANSON: It's true that the federal government is a major factor in this discussion, but I think the points made here also apply because of the provincial responsibility in the area. Basically the point is made in the Jackson report on page 108 that "the federal government should enact framework legislation to enable native people to assume control of correctional processes that affect them." The whole thrust is more involvement — that's all I'm talking about — more debate and more discussion with tribal organizations which are duly responsible. Within the native people's perspective, that's their local government. The more discussion with those bodies, the more productive and the more solution oriented this whole thing will become.

We keep getting back to that point. We've been talking about it for ten years, and it has been talked about a lot longer by members in this House. The solution is to give them more say in the matters that affect their own people. Nobody wants to see people go to jail. Nobody wants to see people who shouldn't be in jail go to jail. That's occurring, and everybody knows it. Every report that we see confirms it.

We can't just see this as having this estimate go by and then proceeding as we have proceeded. It's time for really serious action to occur. The cost is just so devastating when you look at this impact back into the native population. Given that 17 percent at any given time is incarcerated, what percentage of native people have had the experience of being incarcerated? It's tremendously high. It's tremendously deleterious to their own sense of well-being and everything else.

It's a problem that has to be addressed. This minister, I believe, has a chance to do some creative things around native people in jail. I would really commend him to look seriously at that Jackson report and see what he could do, given the fact that the Attorney-General is involved and a lot of it is federally directed in terms of recommendations.

We need recognition that they are distinct cultural groups. A lot of those people are in jail because they don't understand the system. In a large measure they are there because of a cultural poverty. I agree with my colleague that more than other poor people in society they are disproportionately represented, that within the institutions there are inadequate responses to their own needs in terms of offering skills and training, etc. — things that would be particularly oriented towards their experience.

There are examples in the United States in terms of more diversion, more community oriented approaches. I know that's something that the provincial and federal governments are always looking towards, but I don't think the resources have been put in place so that good decisions can be made to deflect people as much as possible into community-based programs and to listen to a council of elders that could say that the reason this is occurring is because of such and such.

The First Nations of South Island Tribal Council in this region have held conferences. They've talked to their elders and brought in people from Washington State who have tribal justice provisions. They have talked to people in other jurisdictions, and they try to make submissions to the government to give them more say and more of a sense.... In the Jackson report it's referred to as a sense of ownership of the justice system so that it's not simply white law and a kind of oppression, punishment, of spending time in a provincial or federal institution and coming out and having that experience for the rest of your life.

I can't think of a more serious social issue. It has been flagged by the Human Rights Commission. It's flagged by every study. Manitoba is having its in-depth study of the whole process. I really think British Columbia should, at this moment, be doing exactly the same thing. We have a very large population of aboriginal people within this province. We have more cultural diversity than anywhere else in Canada.

The problems are difficult here, so we should be addressing it by a full commission, publicly funded, funding the organization so that the nineties are not a re-run of the eighties and the seventies and the sixties and the fifties, and so on. We actually would make the changes. I would like to hear what the Solicitor-General thinks of them apples.

HON. MR. REE: I don't know if I would refer to the problems of our native people so lightly as "them apples." We are working actively to address the problems, as I've indicated earlier. The member was talking about potential legislation; I can't comment on that, because I would draw the sharp tongue of the opposition House Leader if I was out of order in discussing proposed legislation for this House.

MR. ROSE: I wouldn't call you out of order.

HON. MR. REE: Oh! Well, that would be a first time. Normally, his wit and sharp tongue are quick to respond to anything that's out of order in this House, certainly by the government side.

Mr. Member, I indicated the statistics we had on the native youth: 90 percent of those who have difficulties are outside of jail; they're into community projects, community programs. We're working on it. If you don't work with the young to try and bring them along in the community, you're in trouble. That certainly is where we're starting, and as I indicated, the Justice Reform Committee, as a result of that, is doing a lot of travelling.

Interjection.

HON. MR. REE: I notice the opposition House Leader, after my rebuke, or comments, is now leaving.

Interjection.

[ Page 7063 ]

HON. MR. REE: My praise. That's the first time.

As I indicated, that committee is travelling the province. It is going to listen to the tribal leaders, the tribal councils. We're going to continue working on it. As I indicated earlier, it's not something that's going to be solved overnight, but it's something that's got to be continually addressed.

MR. GUNO: The point we want to really emphasize here — and I think that once we do that, we're going to leave the subject — is that we need to have the Solicitor-General, given the serious problem, be more proactive in dealing with it, in terms of his comments about hoping that there would be more correctional officers who are native. But there is no real sense of actually going out to the communities and talking to them, and pointing out the problems, and really trying to be more proactive in terms of recruiting native people to work in these correctional areas.

It's a very difficult one. Within the native community I think that being a correctional officer is not one of the higher aspirations of our people, but I think it's an honourable job and an essential one. I think that once they understand there are opportunities, another step that might be taken is to have someone of Indian origin in your senior staff, someone who could understand these problems, provide you with more insight and be creative.

That is essentially the point that we wanted to emphasize to the minister. We may revisit this later on today, but I want to deal now with the issues pertaining to the motor vehicle branch, and I would ask my colleague from Nanaimo to lead off in that debate.

MR. LOVICK: Mr. Chairman, a considerable amount of time in this chamber has now been spent talking about emergency preparedness, specifically the PEP or provincial emergency program. I am not planning to talk specifically about that, but rather something analogous to and certainly close to it: namely, the whole area of transportation of dangerous goods. I want to canvass some questions there and get a status report, if you like, from the minister on that subject area.

It's interesting to note that in 1985 there was legislation brought to this chamber taking the form of an act called the Transport of Dangerous Goods Act. Interestingly enough, despite the fact that that legislation specifically designed to achieve, obviously, the process of regulating and protecting ourselves against dangerous goods, and broadening the definition and so forth....

Interjection.

MR. LOVICK: Excuse me. I am detecting, Mr. Chairman, a reference being made from the Solicitor-General, telling me that we're in a different ministry. I would be surprised, but I would be happy to hear...

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think that we'd all have a little more direction if we all addressed our remarks to the Chair. Please proceed.

MR. LOVICK: Sorry, Mr. Chairman. I understood — and I hope I am not about to be corrected on this — that all the things to do with the Motor Carrier Commission, motor vehicle licensing and motor vehicle regulation effectively shifted to the Solicitor-General's ministry. Is that not the case? Are you telling me now that the transportation-of-dangerous-goods legislation in fact belongs to a different ministry? Is that the case?

HON. MR. REE: My understanding is that at this precise moment, the transportation of dangerous goods does belong to the Ministry of Transportation and Highways, although motor vehicle inspectors are involved in it. I would have to be fair by indicating that there is consideration to moving it to my ministry.

MR. LOVICK: Given that answer, I think we can indeed proceed. What I'm asking is precisely the kinds of questions, needless to say, that suggest that it ought to fall within your responsibilities. I'm sure you would agree with that.

Given that there is that regulatory function embedded.... I see that Mr. Jackman is here, and I know he has some familiarity with this area. My reference to that particular piece of legislation is very much in passing, to make a point: that despite the fact that the government has taken steps to ensure that we revise our legislation so we can deal with the present and pressing needs in terms of toxic substances and the growing incidence of transport of toxic substances.... The government recognized the need, then, to change some definitions and bring in some very specific legislation. Despite having made those efforts, we nevertheless discover in the Boydell report — that Boydell study which I'm sure the minister is familiar with, because it was a joint venture by the federal, provincial and municipal levels of government — a number of things that need to be done to ensure the public safety.

I wanted to start, then, by just asking the minister if he can inform me what the status is of the recommendations contained within the Boydell study. Are they currently under review? Is that an active and ongoing process under the auspices of your ministry — or if not yours, somebody else's? I understand that there is indeed some confusion and overlapping of jurisdiction here, because, of course, the Waste Management Act probably also impinges on this area too. But the larger question is simply: what are we doing to regulate? How are we protecting ourselves? Have we responded to the kinds of submissions and suggestions presented in the Boydell study?

HON. MR. REE: The recommendations, I'm informed, are under active review. As a result, the motor vehicle branch has hired three dangerous

[ Page 7064 ]

goods inspectors and have trained approximately 140 weighmasters in dangerous goods enforcement.

MR. LOVICK: I wonder if I can zero in and be a little more specific. For example, the first recommendation in the study was to establish a tri-level advisory council, whose principal responsibility would be to monitor the steps towards implementing the other recommendations of the report. Has the council been established? Is it meeting? How is that process going on? In other words, I want something more than just an answer that tells us things are under review. Can you give me some more specifics?

HON. MR. REE: The Minister of Highways (Hon. Mr. Vant), as I told you before, is responsible for the act and still is. As I indicated earlier, I dislike getting into estimates of other ministries. I'm informed that the tri-level council has been formed and has met, and it's going to continue to meet. This should have been raised when you did the Minister of Highways' estimates, because it is not within my ministry at this moment, although members of my ministry participate and assist in the inspection side on the highways. But the administration of the legislation is not within the Ministry of Solicitor-General. Possibly it is out of order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. With that in mind, I'd ask the first member for Nanaimo to proceed.

MR LOVICK: I detect a gentle sort of rebuke and chastisement from the minister. Oh, good, I'm glad to see he's shaking his head and suggesting that's not the case. I would remind the minister that your government's reorganization has caused considerable confusion and consternation among many wondering who is responsible for what. It hasn't been clear, and I would also point out that there has been nothing by way of information bulletins explaining to all of us in this chamber precisely where those new responsibilities are to be found. However, given, as the minister points out, he nevertheless has some responsibility for the enforcement and the monitoring of the provisions of that act — even though, as he says, he is not responsible for administering that specific act — and given also that the kinds of concerns addressed by that act are not addressed by that act alone but rather seem in fact to fall into other areas, among which, of course, is the PEP, which is the direct responsibility — and others, of course, such as Motor Carrier Commission, motor vehicle legislation, those kinds of things — I think we are entirely in order to pose some questions about what has happened with regard to this particular study. If I can, then, Mr. Chairman, I'll just pose a couple of others.

One of the points that Boydell makes, for example, in that report is that the current legislation available as a means of protecting us against the transport of toxic substances and so forth does not stipulate the components of training programs required for those individuals who are supposed to attend in the event of any kind of spillage.

The Solicitor-General a few moments ago made reference to the fact that we had some 141 inspectors or weighmasters. What kind of training have those individuals had? I know something about the original job of weighmasters, but in terms of the specific areas, in terms of being able to recognize dangerous cargoes and the matter of dealing with those cargoes in the event of disaster, in the event of problems, what kinds of training mechanisms are in place for that?

[11:30]

HON. MR. REE: The training of the weighmasters with respect to recognition of dangerous goods is conducted by sponsoring them to courses, mainly at Arnprior, Ontario, which provide seminars and instruction of this nature so they can, as I indicated, recognize dangerous goods and the potential of dangerous goods and the placards for identifying dangerous goods.

Likewise the training of members of the provincial emergency program, coordinators and response teams is conducted partly in Arnprior and partly locally, and we'll be doing it at the Justice Institute. Certainly the response team would be supplemented with environment people in the event of any spills, because it becomes an environment matter, but the response or protection of property and life falls within PEP.

MR. G. JANSSEN: As my colleague for Nanaimo indicated, there seems to be some confusion as to which minister is responsible. Of course, that's mainly because of the shifting of responsibilities to different ministries, possibly the splitting of the Ministry of Solicitor-General away from the Ministry of Attorney-General, and the movement of many people who have been aligned with departments for a very long time, have been comfortable with their position and now find themselves working in new areas.

[Mr. Pelton in the chair.]

However, I'd like to ask the minister whether the transportation of fish and the catchment tanks that are necessary underneath those vehicles are his responsibility.

HON. MR. REE: I don't know why there's confusion about the reorganization, Mr. Chairman. It was well broadcast at the time of the division between the Ministry of Attorney-General and the Ministry of Solicitor-General. On July 6, a list of responsibilities was set out in a circular, and if there has been confusion of the members opposite in this particular matter, why have they waited since July 6, 1988, to ask the question? I would think they'd have had the initiative to ask earlier if they had those big concerns; but no, they wait until May 30, almost ten months later. At any rate, I presume the member for Alberni's question relates to weight loads and safety configura-

[ Page 7065 ]

tions of vehicles, not where they go or the fish go or anything like that. Is that what the member is asking?

MR. G. JANSSEN: Under the act, trucks transporting fresh fish products must be supplied with tanks to catch the spillage or the by-product that seeps off the fish. Are those regulations part of this minister's responsibility or the Ministry of Transportation and Highways' responsibility?

HON. MR. REE: If you're talking other than dangerous goods, fish and fish by-products in the water spillage of the tank, then yes, it comes under the load securement regulations in this ministry. They are subject to inspection on the highways and at the weigh scales.

MR. G. JANSSEN: I just wanted to make sure I was dealing with the right ministry. By the amount of time it took the minister to respond, it seems that the confusion alluded to earlier doesn't exist just on this side of the House.

How many people does the minister have inspecting those catchment tanks that are, under the law, required to be attached to the bottom of trucks and transport vehicles that transport fish through British Columbia?

The reason I raise this matter in the House here today is that in the last year it's been brought to my attention that the number of fish products that are transported out of the Long Beach and Port Alberni area.... Although there is one transportation company in the Ucluelet area that does meet the requirements and does follow the law, at considerable expense, there are a number that do not. When this matter was brought to the attention of the law enforcement officers, they in fact were not aware of what the law was and were not aware that catchment tanks were required underneath these vehicles to stop them from spilling their by-products onto the highways.

As the minister can well appreciate, with the temperatures that rise in the summer, driving on the roads, the products that spill out on the highways create an undesirable odour, and with approximately 400,000 tourists travelling in and out of the Long Beach area, this smell becomes rather noticeable. Also when those vehicles park on city streets, when the truck-drivers stop for lunch or coffee or for a rest period, the trucks drip all over the street; it becomes undesirable. It's virtually impossible to get out of the pavement, and yet it doesn't seem that anybody is inspecting or enforcing those regulations. Could the minister advise us as to how many people he has doing those inspections and what actions are taken when people are in fact caught breaking the law?

HON. MR. REE: At the moment, involved in vehicle inspections within the ministry, including the police — in other words, the police also do that on the highways — we have 39 fixed weigh scales, 19 portable weigh scales and approximately 140 employees on the highway.

With regard to the member's concern on the spillage, leakage and what not onto the roads, municipalities and highways by these vehicles carrying fish and their products, the member indicated that he learned of this or was approached some time ago. This is the first time we in the ministry and, I'm informed, the superintendent of motor vehicles has heard about it. I would have encouraged the member to come early when there's such a problem, so that we might address it and not have it aggravated by continual offences, so that we can address it, look into it and try and rectify it. If the member would write a letter to me or directly to the superintendent with more particulars and more information on it, we would be only too happy to look into it and try and rectify the problem.

By the way, that is part of the responsibility of a minister. I know that when I was a member, I used to write ministers about things like that.

MR. G. JANSSEN: I did take the matter up with the staff in his ministry and was surprised to learn that they didn't have the time to do the enforcement. That's why I inquired earlier as to how many people were actually involved in his ministry checking these regulations. The person I spoke to claimed that he had to operate an area on Vancouver Island with one other person. I found that rather hard to believe considering the number of transport vehicles that travel up and down the highway on Vancouver Island.

I'm not aware that any charges are ever laid or what the offences do garnish in the way of fines or perhaps removal of the right to operate the vehicle. This, of course, is an unfair business practice when some people follow the law extensively and put in the equipment, which I would consider to be quite an expense with the drainage in the bottom of the trucks and the tanks, and then others freely compete against these business people and don't follow the law.

Although this is not the minister's area of responsibility, I understand that the B.C. Ferry Corporation refuses a lot of those trucks without those containers onto the B.C. ferries. I would urge him to make sure that the inspections are carried out and that every truck carrying these fish products is equipped with the required regulatory tanks that will stop the nuisance from occurring on the highways. Perhaps some stricter enforcement and some fines or removal of licences will encourage those people to fall into line.

Another area that I'd like to ask the minister about is in the transportation field. Those vehicles that have the required weight requirements go through the scales and adhere to them; they are inspected to make sure that they're — as the minister indicated — safe and are not overloaded. However, many of the courier services that operate drive by in vans that aren't required to go through the weigh scales. I've seen them myself. They're overloaded, their axles are dragging on the ground, their tires are bulging and they're not regulated, and they are competing against

[ Page 7066 ]

people who have licences and are required to meet certain regulations.

I notice that there are some changes being made in the transportation act. I wonder if the minister could advise us if those people who are operating and competing in an unfair manner will be checked in the future and required to stop at the weigh scales to pass an inspection.

HON. MR. REE: At the moment basically only those vehicles that are 12,000 kilograms or more are obligated to stop at the weigh scales. The member indicates that the courier services are probably operating vans of a lesser weight than 12,000 kilograms, and therefore they are not stopping. Oh, I'm being corrected. The ones that are 12,000 pounds, or 5,500 kilograms or more have to stop at the weigh scales. The smaller vans don't, but if they appear to be overloaded, the mobile inspectors can require them to go into the weigh scales, or they can be tested at one of the portable weigh scales. Also, if the police see a van that appears to be overloaded, they can require the driver of the vehicle to go into the weigh scales.

MR. G. JANSSEN: I thank the minister, but I wonder if he is contemplating hiring any extra staff to see that this practice is stopped. It is obvious from talking to the truck drivers and the people who meet the requirements that they feel they are being competed against unfairly. It becomes very easy to operate a vehicle that has a 10,000-pound capacity, and if you operate two of them, it's even cheaper than operating one large truck. Is the minister contemplating in this year's budget hiring extra people to reinforce the act and to ensure that everybody operates in a fair and equitable manner in this province?

HON. MR. REE: With the reorganization of the ministry, the motor carrier branch now falls within the superintendent of motor vehicle's office. The superintendent is doing a whole reorganization of that branch of the ministry for compliance purposes This will — with the consolidation or merger, as you might call it — provide a higher emphasis on compliance on the highways and, in essence, a better productivity of manpower than we had before.

MR. G. JANSSEN: On January 1, 1988, when the Motor Vehicle Transport Act became effective federally, the province's national safety code was not implemented along with that act. Safety has definitely been compromised as a result. The act was supposed to stimulate competition and provide consumers with a wider range of price and service options. Instead, deregulation has resulted in greater concentration, increased pricing and service discrimination.

As the minister is undoubtedly aware, the British Columbia Trucking Association is concerned that the competition is there, but the regulation is not, and the consumer is not being serviced as the act intended. Under the auspices of his ministry, would he consider providing extra staff for ensuring that the vehicles on the highways are operating under the act and not providing a service discrimination to the consumer?

Also, those vehicles travel down the highway, and I am sure he is aware of the reports that whenever the RCMP do a spot check, the number of vehicles that are apprehended is sometimes well over the 50 and 60 percent bracket, so obviously more service checks should be made or, in fact, a motor vehicle inspection facility or act should be implemented. I'm not asking the minister to comment on legislation; I'm asking him to use this year's budget for greater enforcement.

HON. MR. REE: British Columbia actually has the majority of the standards in place under the National Safety Code. In fact, we're probably further ahead than the other provinces of Canada in that aspect. We are still negotiating with the other provinces on the hours of service and other provisions of the code before we implement those. As far as further enforcement or compliance on the highway goes, we're planning on hiring this year six or seven inspectors — probably seven — under the code.

MR. LOVICK: Mr. Chairman, I want to pose a very specific question concerning the operation of the Motor Carrier Commission and a judgment made by that body. I'm referring to what has apparently been the longest hearing in the history of the Motor Carrier Commission in this province, going on for some 20 days. It was an application by United Parcel Service Canada Ltd. before the commission, which led to a decision on April 6, 1989. The application was sought and granted, and I quote from the judgment:

"...the authority to provide a general freight service to any individual or company from the B.C.-Alberta, B.C.-U.S.A. and B.C.-Yukon borders delivered to any point in B.C., or vice versa, with the following restriction. No single passage for one consignor to one consignee shall weigh more than 31.75 kilograms (70 pounds), and each individual package shall be considered and charged for as a separate and distinct shipment."

I'm sure you're familiar with the case: as I say, the longest in the Motor Carrier Commission's history. Considerable amounts of money were spent by the interveners.

The reason I raise the question here is just that it seems curious indeed, passing strange, that after that long hearing and after the testimony that came before the commission, the application was granted nevertheless. This is an issue, by the way, that my counterparts in Ottawa are also raising — and indeed have raised — in the federal Parliament. Because it is with the Motor Carrier Commission under the auspices and aegis of your ministry, Mr. Solicitor-General, clearly it is a question here,

The central issue is that early in April the customs brokerage licence renewal for United Parcel Service was suspended. In other words, the federal authority said: "You people are apparently not operating as you ought to be." I hope the minister is familiar with

[ Page 7067 ]

this. Despite the fact that the customs brokerage licence was not renewed, our provincial granting authority nonetheless gave that particular appellant — i.e. United Parcel Service — the right to expand its operation, in effect. It seems, as I say, something curious.

To put the question very directly, why is the province granting this organization a licence when the federal government has had such serious questions about this company's service to the public?

HON. MR. REE: I think the member is well aware that the commission is independent of the ministry as such. Certainly the commission is there to implement government policy, but its decision-making power is independent of the government. I as the minister responsible would be loath to suggest how they should carry out the hearing and what decision they should make. I believe the member is well aware that if any party to a hearing feels aggrieved with the decision, they can appeal to a cabinet committee and have a further hearing. Again, to keep the independence of it, the minister responsible for the Motor Carrier Commission would not be sitting on such a committee.

In this particular case I cannot comment, because I have not read the evidence. I have not been privy to it. As to whether the commission even knew of the suspension of the customs brokerage licence at the time it made its decision, it may have felt that the licence was in good shape at that time. This may not have been brought out to the commission at the hearing. I'm not aware whether it was or not. As I said, I have no influence on the decision by the commission, and I would understand that United Parcel Service has been in the province for some time.

MR. LOVICK: I see that the Speaker has arrived, and much as it pains me to drop this matter, because I think there are some very serious questions to be raised, I would move that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

The committee, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I would just remind all members in the House that the B.C. Coalition of Motorcyclists has come over en masse to give us a little treat before lunch today. Having said that, I move the House do now adjourn.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 11:55 a.m.