[ Page 8489 ]

CONTENTS

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Provincial Secretary and Government Services estimates. (Hon. Mrs. McCarthy)

On vote 65: minister's office — 8489

Mr. Hanson

Mr. Cocke

Mrs. Dailly

Mr. Michael

Mr. MacWilliam

TUESDAY, JUNE 3, 1986

The House met at 10:04 a.m.

Prayers.

Orders of the Day

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Strachan in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF PROVINCIAL
SECRETARY AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

(continued)

On vote 65: minister's office, $194,140.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make an introduction of the assistant deputy minister with me today, Mr. John Mochrie, and also in a few minutes you will perhaps have Mr. Larry Ward and Mr. Jeremy Hooper of B.C. Transit. Mr. Hooper is the chairman of finance in the administration, and Mr. Ward is in charge of scheduling.

I would like to say that all of these people, along with all of the other members of the ministry, are ready to assist me in answering any questions that you may have. I would also like to pay tribute to all of them. As all of our public servants do, they give tremendous service, and since I've had this ministry I've had the great support of these people, as I have in all of the ministries which I have had the pleasure to serve.

Now I look forward to the questions from the members of the opposition, and I think we'll have a very constructive estimates day.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, following from the minister's remarks, this side of the House certainly appreciates the fine public service that we have in the province of British Columbia, and Mr. Mochrie is a highly regarded career public employee. I know he is well respected within the public service. I hope I haven't destroyed his career path by saying that.

I want to reiterate a couple of points that I made yesterday: that the Provincial Secretary's ministry is a very broad catch-all ministry with a lot of disparate segments to it, kinds of governmental activities. But what the public is most interested in at this time is the fact that the political apparatus in this ministry has developed into a propaganda apparatus within the public service. This is a relatively new innovation in the last few years. At one time each ministry had information officers, and they would issue press releases and so on with respect to the activities of that ministry in an effort to communicate their activities and inform the public. But the information services were consolidated into a government information services body. That in itself might not have been a bad thing, except that under this government it was abused, in the sense that it has become a political propaganda arm of Social Credit.

The government information service contracts polling for government purposes to find — as Mr. Kinsella pointed out in his well-reported address at Simon Fraser University some year and a half or two years ago — pressure points to manipulate the public into supporting the government in power. A cynical manipulation of the public emanates from the Provincial Secretary's ministry. It is quite shocking to look at the numbers. For example, the advertising and publication expenditure budget within this ministry has averaged approximately $20 million a year over the last three years. This does not account for advertising conducted by commissions, boards, Crown corporations, of which we have no knowledge; the public has no eyes into the activities of the Crown corporations in this regard.

As you know, all we have is a look slightly into the past through public accounts. The public accounts documents that are before the Legislature now are fiscal year 1984-85. In my remarks yesterday, I indicated to the minister that we could extrapolate forward, from looking at those numbers, the torrent of tax dollars that flows into advertising, polling, political propaganda, subjects and information advertising which would much better serve the public if it was paid for by the Social Credit Party and not placed on the backs of the taxpayers of this province.

The advertising budget, as I stated, for this fiscal year totals over $21 million; $5 million has been allocated over into the Tourism ministry; there's an additional $3 million for statutory advertising; but the informational advertising and publication budget of the government is something in the order of $21 million in total. That is an enormous amount of money, and I read into the record yesterday the kind of film making that takes place — the government's attempt to ingratiate themselves to the voters at the taxpayers' own expense.

Then there is the polling that's done around media activity. I read into the record vouchers where in commercial messages the taxpayer pays for focus groups to pretest and post-test media advertising to try to manipulate the voters of the province, the public, into thinking the government's performance is satisfactory. We know that Decima, the government's own polling firm, has indicated that the satisfaction rating of this government is among the lowest in Canada in respect to a number of different questions in their performance.

Interjection.

MR. HANSON: That, Mr. Colleague, is another area that I raised on the floor of this House. I would like the minister to make a note of my first question to her so that after I finish my remarks she could answer the question, and that is the attitudinal polls carried out at taxpayers' expense by Gallup, by Goldfarb, by Public Affairs International, by Decima, by Canadian Facts. The information in those polls, the questions, the answers and so on, should be made available to the people of this province. It should be made available to all of the MLAs in this province. I believe the taxpayers themselves should have access to it. Even Mr. Allan Gregg, the principal of Decima, has indicated, as has Mr. Goldfarb, that the taxpayers really should have made available to them polls that are paid for by the taxpayers.

Ontario has a process; B.C. has nothing. B.C. has secretive cabinet members who have an inside track — those around the cabinet, and so on. They try to deflect it away and say these polls are about educational matters or land matters or native Indian matters, etc. These polls are paid for by the taxpayer. The taxpayers have a right to know, and all the citizens of this province would have better government if the people themselves had access to the public opinion surveying carried out with their money.

[ Page 8490 ]

Polling costs in this province are really outrageous, and these are the numbers that we know. We don't know about Crown corporations, about polling firms engaged by boards or commissions, like the lotteries commission. What we have instead, in Public Accounts, are just a few numbers. We don't know what the polling questionnaires or results were, but, for example, in '84-85, which is the fiscal year under consideration by Public Accounts.... This is the only vehicle for us to express our concerns, Mr. Chairman: on the floor of the Legislature, under the Provincial Secretary's estimates. This Provincial Secretary is in charge; she is the mandarin of public opinion polling, advertising and political propaganda in this province.

She has jurisdiction over a number of key democratic processes such as the elections branch and voters' rights. It is ironic that the minister who has the most grotesque boundary manipulation of any riding in this province presides over the voters' rights and the electoral process in this province. It is an obscenity....

[10:15]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Intergovernmental Relations.

HON. MR. GARDOM:....the minister of gross boundary manipulation? That is most uncalled for, most unparliamentary, and illegal.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Regrettably, I didn't hear it. But it did offend a member, and the first member for Victoria will be asked to withdraw.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, I referred to what is popularly known as the Finger.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Order! Withdraw!

MR. HANSON: Withdraw? I can't withdraw the Finger.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Offence was taken by one member of this house due to what was deemed to be an unparliamentary reference to another member, and that is normally withdrawn. The Chair would request the member do that and avoid unparliamentary language or unparliamentary reference.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, my remark was that the minister's electoral boundary contains a gross...

HON. MR. GARDOM: That's not true.

MR. HANSON: ...abnormality, a political distortion.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The minister on a point of order.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Chairman, let's get the Blues down. If he accused her of gross boundary manipulation, that's illegal. I demand he withdraw.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I think a simple withdrawal will suffice. If there is a problem, we can canvass the matter later, but really a simple withdrawal of unparliamentary reference will suffice.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, I have many remarks to make in this debate so I'm going to withdraw that because it certainly is in the public mind, and I will withdraw it.

There's nothing more fundamental in a democracy than the right to exercise one's franchise when one legally becomes a bona fide citizen capable of exercising that right. Here in the province of British Columbia we have an Alabama style of electoral process where today, as we sit in this House,500,000 eligible British Columbians are not on the voters' list. One in three voters eligible to vote in the provincial election is not on the voters' list in the riding of the minister responsible for voters' rights in British Columbia. If that isn't a scandal of massive proportions, I really do not know what is.

Many times in this House we've called for a full enumeration which could be done very simply, very economically, by setting up voter registration booths in public libraries for a certain period of time, or sending a voter registration card in the mail. We have a computerized list in this province. We could send a small card in hydro bills or Pharmacare bills, as is done now sending political propaganda through these government corporations. We had a former energy minister with his picture and political bulletin sent out with hydro bills before he stepped down from cabinet because of his disclosure forms. We have information sent out in Pharmacare mailings that is of a propaganda nature.

What I'm asking for and what I want the minister to do is include a voter registration card in these data banks of government, either through the motor vehicle branch, B.C. Hydro or the Pharmacare system. But for God's sake let the people of this province have what is duly their right, the right to vote and to be on the voter's list. Because when a person goes to vote on voting day, and, for example, they were living in a riding such as Prince George — you may be familiar with that particular riding, Mr. Chairman — and that person perhaps moves away because there isn't any work and goes to an adjacent riding, they turn up on voter's day and say: "I am not registered in the electoral district in which I'm presently residing, but I satisfy all of the other requirements." Guess what the regulation is? The person, because they had once before been enumerated, cannot vote where they reside. They have to vote absentee back where they were originally registered a year or two or three before. What a scandal, Mr. Chairman.

We on this side of the House want, through the bill that I put forward on behalf of our colleagues here, the right....

AN HON. MEMBER: Order!

MR. HANSON: Well, let's frame it in a different way. We want the right for a person to go into a polling place where they reside, swear in in a duly authorized way with the deputy returning officer, and be given the right to vote where they reside and have their vote counted. Is there anything so revolutionary about that? People every day on this planet are struggling to have the right to vote, and yet here in British Columbia the government puts up impediment after impediment, obstacle after obstacle to make it very difficult for people to exercise their democratic rights.

This minister controls the voters' rights of this province. I have asked her, I've sent letters to her....

[ Page 8491 ]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Time has expired. The Committee is reminded that the necessity for legislation cannot be discussed during Committee of Supply.

MR. COCKE: Mr. Chairman, I think the member is making some very good points. I'd like to make some as well later on on the same subject, but for now I'd like the member to carry on with his dissertation.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for New Westminster simply rose as an intervening speaker, but the.... Okay.

MR. HANSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It would be a simple matter, a very simple matter, to send it to the people of the province in some form. some vehicle, at very modest cost. We know that the Provincial Report sent to all citizens of the province every couple of months is done at enormous cost; I have the numbers and I'll be discussing it later. That is paid for by the taxpayer through the postal branch.

The people of the province are getting political junk mail from Social Credit throughout the year. For heaven's sake, couldn't that minister send them all a voter registration card? Couldn't that minister send them a confirmation card to indicate that they're on the list? As I pointed out yesterday, a person who endeavoured to get on the voters' list after January 1, 1986 has not received a confirmation card. They don't know whether they're on the list or not. What kind of a system is this? Cheating on the most fundamental aspect of our society: the right to choose their government, the people who represent the interests of the electorate. Why is it so tough to be on the voters' list in this province? Why aren't 18-year-olds given the right to vote?

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have a legislation discussion now, hon. member. To the administrative actions of the ministry.

MR. HANSON: We on this side of the House want people who are disabled to have the right to vote in their own home. That's a proposal, Mr. Chairman. It's perfectly in order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll stand corrected, but it appears to me that it would require a legislative change.

MR. HANSON: It might be just a regulatory change. There may be any number of ways it could be done.

To put a voter's card in a Pharmacare bill, or to insert it in a Provincial Report or a hydro bill, or just to mail it from the elections branch or whatever would not require legislation. Ask the returning officers, through the office of the chief electoral officer, to accommodate people who are incapacitated at home. They are not in a nursing home, not in a hospital, but for one reason or another — they have multiple sclerosis or something — they can't get out to vote. There are mail provisions in Manitoba and I believe it's being implemented in Ontario. It was a proposal put forward by a federal task force in the international Year of the Disabled and a federal report called "Obstacles." They asked that people not be disfranchised through no fault of their own by being elderly or sickly or disabled at home.

I'd like the minister to think about that. I've already made it clear that we want free and easy access for people to vote where they reside.

We feel that we're living under a cloud in this province — the Larry Eckardt cloud, which distorted the electoral boundaries in British Columbia; in turn, the Warren report, which was stalled, the formula that was imposed on the electoral commission of our province.... We have indicated many times that we think the electoral commission is a blue-chip, top-line commission, with the Chief Justice, the Clerk of the House and the chief electoral officer on that. We have no quarrel at all with the composition of the electoral commission in this province. What we object to is the fact that they were not free to review electoral boundaries; instead, a formula was imposed upon them with a predetermined outcome, with doubling up of ridings on the basis of the Eckardt formula, which is a gross political distortion that's hurting democracy in British Columbia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Again the member is discussing legislation.

AN HON. MEMBER: He's reflecting on a vote, too.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's a year past, but....

Interjection.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no. The comment made by the minister from his chair is actually incorrect. But I will advise the member speaking — and all members of the committee — that the member is discussing changes in legislation, and that would be inappropriate in Committee of Supply.

MR. HANSON: Okay, fine.

Mr. Chairman, there are so many important subjects under this minister. I know she is responsible for museums, and museums are vital and important institutions. Our government did great things in funding, on a stable basis, displays at the Provincial Museum. For a number of years the museum here in Victoria was starved for funds under the restraint program and displays were stalled. They're still poking along; they're trying to get them underway. The library system across the province was starved under the restraint program — adequate library funding for library books and so on. Just as is the textbook situation in education, the libraries have been inadequately funded in British Columbia.

Mr. Chairman, one other thing I've been most concerned about is the river and torrent of tax dollars that flows through the Provincial Secretary's ministry, through the communications counsel of that ministry, to fund all kinds of advertising. The political propaganda arm which is.... The line is blurred. There is no distinct line between the Social Credit Party...where that ends and where the government functions begin. It's become a blur. This government has tried to erase that line and get advertising to be of a political nature, paid for by the taxpayer, contracted out through the communications counsel of the Provincial Secretary.

There are so many people who I called yesterday fluffers and puffers and doughnut-hole punchers doing this kind of contract work. For example, I see no need whatsoever to pay.... I'm looking again at the 1984-85 fiscal year, because those are the only vouchers available to us. Craig Aspinall is based in Vancouver. This is just one contract I looked at where he was engaged for $72,000. The contractor principal fee was $65 an hour. Now what is his job? The

[ Page 8492 ]

taxpayers have a right to know what this person, who's not hired under the Public Service Act.... He is not hired on the basis of merit. The thing is not tendered; it's not put out to public tender like anyone laying asphalt or driving fence posts or doing other kinds of work for the government.

[10:30]

What we have instead is a contract agreed to by the communications counsel, and Mr. Aspinall.... This is what he'll do — the services contained in the contract: he will perform upon receipt of prior written authorization by the communications counsel.... In other words, he's under the direct control and authority of the communications counsel of the Ministry of Provincial Secretary and Government Services.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, I just wonder if the member would stay with my vote. Mr. Aspinall did not have any contracts with my ministry in the time-frame which we are discussing in these estimates, and I would appreciate it if he would ask the questions related to my ministry and expenditures in the time-frame that we are discussing.

MR. COCKE: On that point of order, Mr. Chairman, the responsibility for the portfolio is now in the hands of the minister. The only public accounts available in the House — the only vouchers that are available — are the vouchers and the public accounts for the years 1984-85. I listened to the minister yesterday, and we were very interested to hear her indicate: "Oh, well, that wasn't the figure." We've checked the figure. Of course it was the figure. The responsibility of this portfolio is now hers. Regardless of whether or not she spent the money, it's now her responsibility. The only vouchers before this House are the vouchers for '84-85, and she has to answer for those vouchers.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: On the same point of order, Mr. Chairman, if we follow the premise that the hon. member for New Westminster has put forward, that we check vouchers and we look into vouchers.... There is a place in the process. It's a very good system, and the hon. member is on that committee; that is, the Public Accounts Committee. This is not a committee of public accounts. This is the committee of the estimates of the '84-85 fiscal year of the Ministry of Provincial Secretary. Mr. Chairman, I have advised you that Craig Aspinall did not have a contract with the Provincial Secretary for the year which these ministry estimates are discussing. Therefore, if you wish to go back in other years.... I'm sorry, I think firstly it's out of order; and secondly that would extend estimates. We'll just take the subject of advertising: we could go back to the Dunsky accounts and add them all up and talk about the Dunsky accounts. We could talk about...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: ...accounts for other areas...

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please, on the point of order.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: ...and frankly, Mr. Chairman, that would extend estimates for every single minister for the full year. I want to give all of the information that I have as much possibility to give, and I'm very happy to do that, and I will continue to give as much information as possible.

MR. COCKE: On the same point of order, Mr. Chairman, muzzling the committee is certainly nothing new to this.... The fact of the matter is that there are two terms we're looking at. You don't discuss — and the minister should know this — the vouchers in Public Accounts. You don't discuss that in Public Accounts. You discuss the vouchers in this House. You can do it in question period or under the minister's estimate.

We're looking at two things when we're looking at this: the year '84-85 and the year '85-86. That's what we're looking at — or '86-87. And so, Mr. Chairman, to muzzle the committee after years and years and years of being able to examine and to criticize this particular situation would be absolutely absurd. There is no room in Public Accounts. As a matter of fact, the way we meet in Public Accounts, an hour or two a day....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. COCKE: But there is no room in Public Accounts for this discussion. Once the vouchers are sought and found, they have to come before the Committee or the House in question period — one or the other.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Just one moment, please, members. The points of order are well taken on both sides, but we are under estimates for the year 1986-87 and the administrative functions of the present minister. Other information may be brought up as a comparison to the '86-87 expenditures, but we are dealing with '86-87, and members must recognize that in the other comparisons they were not a responsibility of this minister. The Chair would encourage debate to be relative to the '86-87 estimates and the administrative functions and the expenditure of the estimates by the present minister.

MR. HANSON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I take your guidance there. What I am essentially trying to communicate to the House is that the only window that is open to the public to took into the precise spending habits of the government is the fiscal year of public accounts that is presently on our desks. That is the only window. Now I understand that we're discussing the spending estimates of the ministry of Provincial Secretary, but I'm comparing the behaviour and the past practice with what is occurring now. That is, the government engages contractors to perform all kinds of media coordination and advertising and all kinds of activities that the public has a right to know about. I don't know why the minister is afraid of the public knowing what is being done and how their money is being spent.

If the public knew in a one-hour presentation or a half-an-hour presentation....

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for New Westminster on a point of order?

MR. COCKE: No, Mr. Chairman, I seek the floor.

[ Page 8493 ]

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member was....

MR. COCKE: He had a red light on. I thought I'd just get up and intervene and....

MR. CHAIRMAN: That was in error. The Chair was cognizant of the time taken on points of order and had indicated to Hansard to provide another three minutes for the first member for Victoria.

MR. COCKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, but let the record show that I seek to be....

MR. CHAIRMAN: On a point of order?

MR. COCKE: No, I seek to be recognized.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The member for Victoria was on his feet at the time you rose, sir.

MR. COCKE: I seek to be recognized, thank you.

MR. HANSON: I defer to the member for New Westminster.

MR. COCKE: Mr. Chairman, I feel that the member for Victoria is going along very well, and rather than three minutes he's now got 15. Thank you.

MR. HANSON: I want to ask the minister a very, very serious question. Because government polling is done in the ministry under contract through the communications counsel and so on, I want to ask her if she would today undertake to release all of the public opinion polls paid for by the taxpayers that are available to her, from 1978 to the present. They're listed in Public Accounts — Goldfarb, Gallup, a number of others. Will she undertake today to release all of those to the public? The public has a right to know.

Second question: will she undertake today to advise this House that under no circumstances shall there be any public opinion surveying done with taxpayers' funds now that the Social Credit leadership race is underway? I don't have to point out to you, Mr. Chairman, how manipulative it would be for a government to undertake general attitudinal surveys that could find their way into the leadership race and that would more properly be paid for by the Social Credit candidates or the party itself if it wanted to make information available to the candidates.

I think that is a very important point that goes to the nub of her ministry, because, as I have said, that minister presides over a political apparatus, through an information service, the elections branch, government polling and government advertising, unprecedented in the history of British Columbia.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, let me go back to some of the questions that the hon. member for Victoria has asked. Let me take the last one first, vis-à-vis polling. The member wants answers to questions regarding government polling. I think it should be known by this House that there were only two contracts given for polling. They are....

MR. HANSON: In this fiscal year?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: In '85-86. Goldfarb was retained at $16,500 with one report, and a second report for $15,000, for a total of $21,500 [sic]. There were no other polling organizations contracted by this ministry beyond and above that.

The two reports that the Goldfarb organization did for this ministry were related to economic renewal, education, social services and the testing of the marketplace vis-à-vis those commercial messages in the programs that our ministries of economics, education and social services did. Market testing is a normal thing to do when one has.... The member himself has said that the government is probably one of the largest.... If one looks at the expenditure, it is the largest business in the province in terms of expenditures, and there is an advertising program that goes along with that. I'd like to address that in response to his earlier questions, and I will. But in terms of the market response to that, it's quite a modest amount of money to spend to see if the market has received and is receiving...and are we doing the right thing in testing the comprehension of a message. It's not a poll in the accepted sense of the word, and is merely used as an internal guide to test the effectiveness of a particular commercial. That's what those two polling contracts were for. So any other polls that the member wants to refer to will have to be referred to in another context, because I simply do not have those contracts within my ministry.

[10:45]

I'd like to go now to his comments on registration cards and the electoral process in the province of British Columbia. I'm pleased to tell you that we are the only jurisdiction in Canada that has an ongoing registration, an ongoing commitment to make sure that everyone who can be on the voters' list is on the voters' list. We're the only ones who have done that in a consistent, businesslike way. These cards are sent out after each enumeration and after a writ has been issued, in the time-frame of the election itself. Anyone who does not receive a confirmation card after the writ is issued still has time to register up to day 10 of the election time-frame. Registration can also take place on polling day. It was this government that made that change — on polling day alone. And this government introduced the regular enumeration — that if you feel you're not on the voters' list all you have to do today.... If anyone is doubtful at all that they aren't on the registration list, they need only give a call to the office of the electoral officer and can find out by telephone and make arrangements to have a card sent to their home. They don't even have to go into the office. It can all be done that way.

As for the public's not knowing that, the hon. member may be quite correct. If that is so, I would be very pleased to look into the possibility of letting the public know that that service is available. It will take advertising dollars to do that. It will take moneys from the ministry of the Provincial Secretary government information services to tell the public that. I think that's a very good use of government funds, to let the public know where they can get their registration and be registered for an election. I will consider doing that. I think that's a very wise use of government information service funding.

Speaking of advertising, I'd also like to refer to another question that you asked. It had reference to a dramatic increase in advertising. It may well look like a dramatic increase, but I think the member will admit that all of the advertising funds were put into one place: that is, into the office of the Provincial Secretary. Heretofore, prior to one

[ Page 8494 ]

budget ago, I think, or two budgets ago — I stand to be corrected on that — there were advertising budgets throughout the ministries. Now they are all under the Provincial Secretary under government information services. When it is amalgamated into that one place, it may look as though the Provincial Secretary has a very large increase, but that would be a distortion of the highest order. We all know that isn't true. We have taken those budgets from various ministries.

Let me tell you what some of those budgets are. I did share with you yesterday — although you repeated today a $21 million budget — that it is indeed a $15,338,000 budget, of which $3,524,000 belongs to the administration, salaries, benefits, operating costs and asset acquisitions. But the balance is a far cry from the $20 million that you once again quoted this morning — erroneously, I'm sure. It is $11, 814,000.

I'd like to tell you some of the things that that's expended on. Especially in this very busy year of Expo 86, a very large part, $1.4 million or 12 percent, is identified for Expo 86 initiatives, advertising related to Expo and ministry-coordinated needs; Expo legacy promotion to make sure that the communities throughout the province know that there are possibilities for them to have something besides Expo in the city of Vancouver, but indeed will have an opportunity to extend Expo to other communities; informational programs relating to Expo and ministry-related projects, not the least of which is the British Columbia pavilion, which will be an ongoing legacy of Expo 86 and will indeed in this year extend our opportunities for trade and industry worldwide, and is doing so at this very moment. That program alone the member should be on his feet to applaud, because that business communications program is reaching out to some 30,000 industries and businesses throughout the world to extend and support the industry initiatives of the province, which will result in creating jobs.

If you look outside of that area, I could tell you of some of the examples of ministry activities that are funded and met by the GIS budget. Again, it's not a $20 million budget but after administrative an $11 million budget. It's to promote the British Columbia agricultural industry, a very important industry to our province: publications on pest control for agriculture; livestock production manuals; a five-year agricultural strategy; crop technology — there are 50 publications for crop technology produced by this ministry in conjunction with the Ministry of Agriculture and Food; public awareness; in-store promotions to make sure that people buy British Columbia agricultural products; trade shows to make sure that our people can get their products to the marketplace.

If we look at the Attorney-General's ministry.... We can go down any one of the ministries, and I can tell you that the kind of advertising that has been done has been done in terms of things like reports and working papers for the Law Reform Commission, the Counterattack and traffic safety. There's nothing frivolous about that. We believe that the Counterattack and traffic safety program is the best in the country, and if I may say so, Mr. Chairman, I think it is daily saving lives — one of the things we cannot ever know about, but that program, I suspect, does save lives and it is very much worth spending public awareness advertising, whatever you think on it. Boards and commissions that come under the Attorney-General have to have advertising, and do, so that the public can know where to get services.

We can took at Consumer and Corporate Affairs. There are consumer education courses in the secondary schools. Statutes and regulations in all ministries have to be printed and distributed. In Education there is curriculum development; learning assessment; examinations; correspondence; publications; school operations; materials for the visually impaired and the handicapped; special education programs, for things like special Indian education programs so that we can learn more about the first citizens of our province; institutional support services; continuing education; Provincial Educational Media Centre; academic technical programs. In Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources there are technical publications, maps and reports.

All of this has been brought into the Provincial Secretary; all of these things needed to be done in cooperation and coordination. It's really using the good resources of an amalgam of people and putting them together so that that part of my ministry which is called Government Services can best service the various ministries.

In Environment, snow accumulation statistics; forecast trends in water runoff, an important development. You can laugh. The second member for Victoria (Mr. Blencoe) can chuckle, but you know, when we don't have that kind of information given to the public and shared with the public and a disaster occurs, the very member who chuckles today can be very critical of this government for not bringing that information to the fore. So it is a very important thing, and I wish he would take it more seriously.

New waste management program; beverage container refund. Regulations have to be printed and shared with all of the public. There is environmental protection plans; privatization of map distribution system, which is important for tourist opportunities in sports fisheries; hunting regulations synopsis; wildlife management; hunter training and waste management — all of those things that protect and enhance the environment and give us a feeling that we have been doing the best and giving the public some source of information. Fishing regulations synopsis; fish distribution reports.

In Finance we have the public procurement strategy that was, I think, a very good program under the Ministry of Finance, and we worked on that. Consumer taxation; property taxation; government agency brochures, all of those things. I could go on in Forests and in Health. In Health it is very important that we share with the people of British Columbia that the largest spending ministry. In the whole province of British Columbia, for probably the best health service in the country, is to be given to the people who want to have that information.

It may not be so important in this room today, but an elderly person out there who wants to have long-term care and is looking forward to retirement in old age has to know where that kind of information is available. In the Ministry of Human Resources I can tell you full well from my past experience in that ministry that we have very definitely saved lives with the program which was waged in a war against child abuse. It goes on today. It is paid through this ministry within that budget, and it is being discussed in this vote.

But all of those things are being done for other ministries as a government service to ministries. It is done for Industry and Small Business, International Trade and Investment, for Labour, for Lands, Parks and Housing, Municipal Affairs, Post-Secondary Education and Transportation and Highways. Mr. Chairman, I think that those are the kinds of services which my ministry and government information

[ Page 8495 ]

services is committed to share with the public. We need to do that, and it is really the only place that the information can get to the public.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, the minister did not answer my question. My question was: would she release the public opinion surveys paid for by the taxpayers over the last number of years; and would she cease and desist from having any more public opinion polling done while the Social Credit leadership race is underway? No response whatsoever.

Now she indicated, talking about the fiscal year under review at the moment, that only, I think she said, $60,000 in public opinion surveying has been spent so far. I am just looking at the average per year. Let me just advise you, Mr. Chairman, and this is our concern in this estimate debate: 1978-79, $293,000 for public opinion surveying, known public opinion in public accounts; 1979-80, $182,000; 1980-81, $269,000; 1981-82, $246,000; 1982-83, $155,000; 1983-84, $86,000. Then the last year, which is the one that is the window where the public can look in on public accounts, 1984-85, $168,000 of public opinion surveying done. The breakdown of the $168,000: Goldfarb received $42,250; Canadian Gallup, $65,000; Public Affairs International, $60,000, for a total of $168,000.

Now why can't the public have those documents? It is a simple thing. Let us see the questionnaires. Let's look at the responses and the interpretations. We'd have better government; we'd have an informed public. You see, the thing that this minister doesn't seem to understand when we criticize and I criticize the advertising is that it does not have credibility. It's a waste of taxpayers' money, because what we have every night is that the public turns on their televisions and they see some big Socred puss sticking at them through their tube — some big Socred puss sticking out the TV tube at them, telling them that forestry is okay in the province when everybody in the province knows that forestry is in trouble.

That Minister of Forests (Hon. Mr. Heinrich), who had his little ad campaign recently....

[11:00]

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. COCKE: How do you like that! "Order, order." We can't ask the Minister of Forests. He says: "Refer it to the Provincial Secretary." Come on.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on the estimates of the Provincial Secretary at the moment.

MR. HANSON: I asked the minister in this House some time ago.... And she never responded to me. In fact, she hasn't responded on any of the questions I've asked her in question period that I can recall. I asked her what the advertising and promotion campaign cost around the budget, the saturation advertising around promoting the budget this year. How much did it cost? Who did the main contracting and subcontracting on the Finance minister's (Hon. Mr. Curtis's) ad campaign around his budget? That is a specific question I would like her to respond to.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: I do have the answer to that. I was hoping the member would ask me, and if I may just find it in my papers, and if he would just go on with his other question.

Could I just answer another one which I failed to answer when I was last on my feet so he can have a minute to catch his breath here? He did refer to the museum in Victoria, that great museum which we're all so proud of and which I think all of us have tremendous affinity for: the service that it has given over many years.... I'm always proud that it remains free to the public. We've always resisted making a charge to the public. I think that's a good policy.

I'd like you to know that it has had about a third of a million dollars — $350,000 — added to its budget this year. I mentioned the "Open Oceans" project which we are working on, which will be open in October for the hundredth anniversary, the centennial anniversary, and I wanted you to know that it has had an increase in its budget for this year.

MR. HANSON: I did not get an answer from the minister. I'd be happy to have her look in her book and give us the price of that ad campaign. I'm certain that every person in this province could be registered on the voters' list if that money was shifted over and everyone received a voter registration card.

She did not indicate whether she would assure the House that public opinion polling would cease between now and the leadership campaign of the Social Credit Party on July 28. There should be no taxpayer-paid public opinion surveying done to enhance any leadership candidate's chances. It should be a level playing field. You should disclose all of the public opinion surveys. The advertising that has had one Social Credit cabinet minister's mush pushed at the public through the TV tube....

AN HON. MEMBER: "Mush" is what you eat.

MR. HANSON: Every one of you has been on there, and I'm saying we'd save a lot of money, because they don't have credibility. Nobody believes them anyway. It's time for some specific commitments from this minister: no more public opinion surveying in the confines of the cabinet room; public access; release the documents that already have been paid for by the ordinary folks; relieve the burden; shift that money over; reallocate; re-priorize that money over to make sure every eligible British Columbian is on the voters' list in the province of British Columbia; free up that Electoral Commission and redraw the boundaries before the next election.

There's another account that I'm very intrigued with, and I don't know how we can get all the information, because I'm not sure whether the minister.... The protocol and special services budget — here's one budget in the Ministry of Provincial Secretary that went up by almost 5 percent. It's $6 million. Now what is that particular protocol and special services? It provides for the expenses of cabinet ministers.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

Its members, cabinet committees.... I'll tell you, Mr. Chairman, there aren't a lot of cabinet committees in this House that are functioning, are there? We have an ombudsman committee, the Standing Orders Committee — the Minister of Health (Hon. Mr. Nielsen) and others are on that. Then we have travel expenses for the executive council, which is the cabinet; parliamentary secretaries....

AN HON. MEMBER: Do they get paid?

[ Page 8496 ]

MR. HANSON: Parliamentary secretaries and related staff within Canada, including the payment of prescribed allowances, official ceremonies, government-hosted functions. Boy, they eat well over there, you know. They really put on the nose-bag. Costs associated with visiting dignitaries and so on; $6 million of hors d'oeuvres, meals, downtime. Meanwhile, how long are the lineups at the food banks? How many groups are turned down for lottery grants for sports functions, recreational functions and so on?

Another question of the minister. I asked her in the House — and I've had no answer — where are the quarterly reports on the lotteries disbursement funds? The last time we looked, four quarters not reported. A senior staff member in the Provincial Secretary was quoted as saying the documents are all in place. They haven't had approval for release. The different lottery proceeds, grants, what organizations were beneficiaries, what electoral districts got the grants — not available. Why not?

This minister wants to be thought of as the person whose main function is the "Open Oceans" exhibit. This minister is in charge of propaganda, advertising, electoral abuse....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Now, now. That must be withdrawn, hon. member. That is a most unparliamentary reference.

MR. HANSON: I withdraw.

We need specific information. How come the protocol and special services budget...? I think all members of this House should know what the increase has been, because in 1985-86.... I have to advise the House that I made an error in my percentage increase for protocol and special services. I said it was a 5 percent increase; it's a $4.7 million increase. It went from $1.3 million to $6 million for protocol and special services.

We on this side of the House knew there would be more government functions with Expo. We acknowledge that. But $4.7 million? That's half the budget of the Provincial Museum, which last year served 1.2 million visitors. And they have a $4.7 million increase in their hors d'oeuvres budget. It's scandalous. There's no possible explanation for that. At a time of restraint, teetering on the edge economically as we are, to spend $4.7 million! As I look through the vouchers I see the extravagance: the extravagance of charge-out rates, the extravagance of the bills paid, the extravagance of booking advertising time, radio, television, print media. The advertising network is awesome, outrageous.

This House deserves a full justification of why cabinet ministers' travel expenses and government functions budget quadrupled to $6 million.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, the hon. member from Victoria asked about the radio and television advertising which was done in conjunction with the budget, the annual report of the Finance minister to the people of British Columbia. That advertising totalled, with production costs and all, $73,135, or approximately 6 cents per household.

In addition, the member asked about the increase for the protocol office. He has himself zeroed in on the reason for the large increase. This year will be a year like no other probably in our time. Expo 86 is an opportunity for us to welcome the world, and in doing so we welcome royal visitors from all countries. We have over 50 pavilions with foreign representatives of other countries who have come here to display their country's best efforts to show the world. We have in addition many, many corporations, a larger number, I'm told, larger even than the corporate involvement of business in the very successful Olympics held last year where everybody was so pleased with the results of the corporate donations, resulting in a debt free budget for those Olympics.

We had, I think, the opportunity, and we have the opportunity this year, to do the very best for the visitors who come. The most important aspect of that is the trade opportunities that we have, and they are the most important. We have invited to the province of British Columbia many thousands of people to come and to look, not just at the city of Vancouver, not just at the region around Vancouver, but all through Vancouver. Part of that budget extends people into the various regions of the province in order to make sure that they see the kinds of things which we can do in order to make business comfortable in the province of British Columbia.

Whenever we talk about Expo 86 I think we can say in this House, if we're really in our heart of hearts very honest, that Expo 86 probably is one of the best opportunities that has ever come to the province of British Columbia to enhance our trade and business relationships.

AN HON. MEMBER: Prove it.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Because of that, the Expo....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Hon. members, one moment please. The first member for Victoria has posed a series of questions. There was no interruption when he was posing those questions. The minister is now replying, and the minister will do so without interruption. Thank you.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: The budget, I have to tell you — the same budget as he's talking about — sees no change at all in the travel budget. It's still $474,000, and it's the same as it was last year. The increase is in the part of that budget which pays for travel, which pays for accommodation, which pays for people to come to Expo and for us to be able to take advantage of this incredible year, so that we can make use of this year to the benefit of British Columbians in ongoing years. Expo 86 will be unquestionably the kind of stepping stone, the kind of forward-looking initiative for the years ahead. Expo 86 is already successful. And I appreciate that the hon. member for Vancouver East, who is so noisy at this present time, really doesn't want it to be that successful. Obviously he is stung because it is. But whenever anyone looks at Expo 86 and understands the success of it — at the very moment its success, let alone the success yet to be seen between now and October 13 when it closes — I have to tell you that that investment.... And it is an investment: it's an investment in the future, it's an investment in jobs, it's an investment for the future of British Columbia, and I really feel quite comfortable in speaking up for that budget in this ministry.

[11:15]

I think you did ask about the quarterly report on lotteries, and you had mentioned the question earlier in the legislative session. I have asked for that report and I'll be able to table that report today. I think that's about it, Mr. Chairman.

MR. HANSON: I thank the minister for making the figure available to us for the advertising campaign, but I'd

[ Page 8497 ]

like to indicate to her that this $73,000 to advertise the provincial budget would have given 150 students a $500 bursary in the province of British Columbia to go to university — 150 students at university who are hard pressed because of the high student fees and the underfunding by this province. This is the thing, you see, Mr. Chairman; the government doesn't realize that that massive torrent, that river of tax dollars that they flood through the media in their advertising campaign, should be directed to students, to people who want work, to people who need help. That's where that money should be spent; and to justify $73,000 on that one campaign alone is really a scandal.

As I and my colleague the member for New Westminster and the other members of the Public Accounts Committee go through the vouchers, we look at those baskets of hundreds of thousands of dollars attached in little vouchers to someone to do a creative media campaign around some political enhancement program around a minister who is politically in trouble. The public watch it. They are numb from it. Their wallets are numb. The public's wallets are numb from your extravagant expenditures on advertising and fluffery and puffery and doughnut-hole punching. They are sick of it.

At the same time, I want to ask the minister a question. Does it bother the minister that 20,000 people within her riding 19 years of age and over are not on the voters' list? What are you going to do about it?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Well, again, Mr. Chairman, may I remind the member that we are the only jurisdiction in Canada where any person today can get onto the voters' list. He makes a claim of 20,000 in one constituency or another, and I have to tell you that the member is asking for a further expenditure of advertising money, or is making that suggestion. I'll be very glad to make that advertising available.

MR. BLENCOE: The price of democracy, Grace?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: I don't think the price of democracy should turn on whether or not we should spend money on advertising. I think it should be advertised. I have no difficulty with that, none whatsoever. I think that that is a very bona fide expense, to ask people to register themselves. It has already been done. It was done, and it was done by law, a law which was put in by this House that one year after an election total enumeration must take place. It was voted in by this House. That's already been done. Everyone had the opportunity then to be registered, and in an ongoing registration this very minute, as we are here today in this debate, we can go and get registered if we are not on the voters' list. We not only can go, we can phone and have a card sent to our home and fill it out and send it back. We don't even have to go in to the registrar of voters, don't have to look for the office. We can make that information available if you think it is too obscure at the present time. Quite honestly, you make a very good point for government advertising, because people do not know of the many services of government.

Some of the lists that I read out before vis-à-vis the expenditures of very good services that are put forward by the various ministries — you have been critical of the expenditures of those. I have to tell you that that is information that the people of British Columbia pay for and should know about. I will make that information available if the member is concerned.

I also feel that the member knows also that his political party, as with all political parties in the province, was given the opportunity at the time of enumeration to receive cards. The chief electoral officer. I understand, made those available to all political parties. I didn't hold this ministry at that time, but I believe that to be so. I was given that information.

We've gone to all lengths to make sure that people did get registered. We keep it open so they can. I gave you the formula for how one can get registered, even on the day of voting. It is this government that made the ruling that you can even get registered to vote and vote in the election on the day when it is held. I don't think we can go much further than that. We've done everything. You are trying to build some kind of mythical case that people are being left off the voters' list, and it's just not so.

There is. I think, a price that we all have to pay for democracy, and that is ever to be vigilant. There is also an onus on the public themselves, the individuals themselves, to go to the trouble to be registered. We have even made every opportunity available for that right up to voting day. I think that it is an excellent system. It is the best in Canada. There isn't anybody else that keeps that ongoing registration anywhere else in this nation, so we have done our best for that and we will continue to do so. I will give consideration to making sure that the public knows.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, the minister stands in this House and justifies $73,000 for the political campaign around the provincial budget, which she said was six cents per household. I'll bet it wouldn't cost much more than that to send a voter registration card through fourth-class mail, or whatever, to every household in this province, have those cards come back, be checked against the computerized system, and we could have a provincial election with everybody on the list. We could get that underway tomorrow.

But the bottom line in that side's interpretation is to blame it on the unregistered voter. The people that are hustling for work and trying to find employment in this province, that are mobile, young or whatever, having difficult times.... Blame it on the voter. If they're not on the voters' list it's their fault: that's the Social Credit line. Well, Mr. Chairman, that's absolutely false. It's the government's responsibility to make a process available that guarantees the right to vote. In Arizona, Massachusetts and a number of other states.... This did not come from legislators; it came from referendums, plebiscites and so on, from grassroots movements that were sick of leaving a sloppy enumeration system up to government. The people said they wanted to be able to go into the motor vehicle branch and when they get a driver's licence they'll just say, "Am I registered?" They push the button, they say, "No, you're not on there, Mr. Dokes," and you sign up and you're on the list; you get a card. Simple as that.

AN HON. MEMBER: We don't do auto testing anymore.

MR. HANSON: We don't even do safety testing on motor vehicles. That's why everybody's driving with one light and hay wire and bubble gum.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, no. Provincial Secretary's vote, please.

[ Page 8498 ]

MR. HANSON: I'm going to sit back a little bit. A number of my colleagues have comments to make, but I just want to say that I would estimate that in the west end of Vancouver Centre two out of three eligible voters are not on the voters' list right now. Is it their fault that they're tenants, and that rents go up and they move, or job opportunities come up and they move, or they move across the street, which is in another electoral district? They're concerned about employment, they're concerned about putting groceries on the table, and they don't get on the voters' list again until election day. An advertising campaign is not good enough. What we need is a card sent to every household in this province. We don't need an ad campaign with you doing tube analysis for the folks. We want a card delivered to the household. Simple — return it to your local return address just as if you're writing to a Member of Parliament or an MLA. It's as simple as that. The letter carriers would be happy to carry it. They carry so much garbage for the government, they'd be happy to carry something of real importance. For the $73,000 you spent on that ad campaign, every person in this province would get a voter card.

MRS. DAILLY: I've been listening to this debate all morning, and needless to say, I'm not at all happy or satisfied with the responses given by the Provincial Secretary to the member for Victoria, particularly when he did an excellent job in exposing the waste of money by the Social Credit government for their own government propaganda purposes. I couldn't help thinking, as I sat here and looked across at the members over there, that all four of them, except for the House Leader, were in opposition when we were in government. The House Leader, if I recall, was very active in another area at that time. I believe he was a local hotline host. I recall that every one of those people across the floor had a great time with the....

Interjection.

MRS. DAILLY: I'm referring to the Minister of Health and Human Resources (Hon. Mr. Nielsen). I must clarify that. Maybe the House Leader will become a hotliner next time around. However, back to what I'm trying to put across here — without the interruptions.

I recall that those members were so vocal, running around the province of British Columbia — and in this House — in accusing the NDP government of wasting money. The interesting thing is that the money the NDP government spent was spent on services to people, not on services for self-aggrandizement. That is what's happening with the Social Credit government.

MR. SCHROEDER: I was so kind to you.

MRS. DAILLY: You were not always kind — and rightfully so. You had to do your job, and I'm doing my job now, I hope, in pointing out that this government has wasted the taxpayers' money for their own purposes of trying to win the next election through government propaganda. That's the issue here. You have no right to take the taxpayers' moneys and use them other than in services to people. Now the minister says: "But we're using that money for information. It is our job to give information to the citizens of British Columbia." Nobody could quarrel with that.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

But what we quarrel with is that there is no line drawn between the Social Credit government.... There should be a division between true information and straight government propaganda. The line has been completely fudged with this government, and it has merged. So instead of the government television programs and your newspaper ads, media ads etc. simply giving out information, every one is done very cleverly to couch some information, and much of it biased and not factual, as has been pointed out. When you have a minister saying, "The economy is growing in this province," and at the time they make those statements, we know they are in severe difficulty in many industries....

[11:30]

But putting that aside, we always have the face of a cabinet minister coming on and taking part in that program. If it is straight information, my question is: why is it necessary to have every cabinet minister involved in that ministry always there? Now the former Minister of Agriculture, the member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder), looks very handsome on television. He comes across — or he did when he was Minister of Agriculture — very sincerely, but I ask the House: why is it necessary to have him on at all? It is only necessary to improve the chances, they hope, of the Social Credit Party, and it is wrong to be using the taxpayers' moneys for that purpose.

The Provincial Secretary could stand in this House, as she did this morning, and say: "It's just information." I say to the minister: if it is just information, would she please explain to us why all the politicians of the Social Credit government-or most of them, particularly the cabinet ministers — sooner or later are featured in all these advertising blurbs, particularly, may I say, the Provincial Secretary above all? Whenever the Provincial Secretary sends out material to do with senior citizens, her picture is on it not only once but maybe four or five times. Is that what's necessary to give the information about the department or the ministry involved? So the first question I would like to ask the minister is why it's necessary to constantly feature the faces, the profiles of the cabinet ministers when she has said: "All we want to do is give out information."

The minister also said this morning, if I recall, that the purpose of the polling — and she still has not answered the question on why those results will not be released — was something to do with testing whether the type of advertising was being done properly. I couldn't quite understand her answer, and I wish we could have it clarified. What is the true purpose of the polling done by the government? Is the minister suggesting that the true purpose is not to assist the government in knowing how to develop their policies to make them more electorally desirable?

Let's face it, those questions which we know are being asked are used to help the government know in what direction to go to improve their chances in the coming election. So when the minister tries to deny that it has anything to do...or when she tries to couch it in other terms, I would say that I don't think the minister is giving a true picture of what government polling is all about. I would ask the minister if she would explain to the House — this is my second question — what the true purpose is of the polling that has been done by the Social Credit government during the last few years.

[ Page 8499 ]

So the two questions are, why should ministers be on all public advertising and what is the true purpose of polling?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: I think I did relate earlier in this debate some of the things which government information services undertakes to do. In some cases, such as an annual report, the minister's picture would accompany that. There are a lot of just informational reports, and most of the things which GIS puts out...in fact, all of the things they put out to do with labour, apprenticeship, employment training programs, municipal affairs circulars and notices, building standards publications, curriculum development publications in post-secondary education, pension information in my own ministry, management manuals, records management manuals that we put out, museum holiday packages, heritage tourism brochure series, parliament buildings brochures which are used through this ministry, and safety regulations for Transportation and Highways. None of those things have an accompanying — or very few of them; I shouldn't say none, because some of them, such as the annual reports, do have a ministerial photograph.

I think I take exception to the fact that the former Minister of Agriculture shouldn't have been connected with some of the good programs which he initiated, because he did a very good job in that ministry. The reason he did such a good job is that the people in the agricultural field could relate to the minister in charge, and it is quite in order for those who carry the burden of the ministry, initiate the new programs and the new ideas for that ministry, to be credited with those initiatives. I see nothing wrong with that.

I know that it stings the member who has asked the question, but I know too that when that party was in power I do remember that not just the minister of social services or human resources was photographed, but his photograph appeared with a message to senior citizens that the premier of the day, along with him, went to each of the senior citizens of the province. So it's interesting that you make the comparison of senior citizens, because that was done with a lot of aggressiveness during the time of the NDP.

The other question that you asked had to do with polling. There are two polling reports which were given to our ministry through Goldfarb, nobody else. Goldfarb is the only public opinion poll that we have and they amount to, in total, $31,500. They were done for market testing of commercial messages related to economic renewal for education and social services. No public opinion polling was contracted by government information services with the exception of this Goldfarb market testing of commercial messages related to those same things I have already talked about: economic renewal, education and social services. It is a normal process which is used in testing and planning of television advertising, and is used by agencies to test the comprehension of the message. It's not a poll in the accepted sense of the word, and it's merely used as an internal guide. I've already said that earlier in this debate, in case the member was out of the House and didn't know. It is certainly an approved marketplace tool, and it was not to do with anything other than economic development, social services and education.

MR. HANSON: The minister said that the market testing and the ad campaign is around.... She has buzzwords like economic renewal and so on. What they're trying to do is find out, if they have an advertising campaign about northeast coal, whether the public minds the hole being in the wrong place after the public expenditure has been made. It is unfair to ask the taxpayer to pay for those things without disclosing the polling information that is the underpinning of those ad campaigns.

I do have a specific question of the minister. The cheque may have been paid recently, and I'm not aware, but there had been some undertaking by the minister that $55,000 would be given to Islands 86 to defray their Expo-related activity costs, I'm wondering if the minister could advise me if that cheque has been sent to Islands 86 here in the Victoria area,

MR. MICHAEL: I would just like to take my part in the minister's estimates, and thank the minister and certainly her staff for the commendable job that is being done in that ministry, and to pass on to the minister the sincere gratitude and thanks from people from all over the constituency of Shuswap-Revelstoke for the tremendous cooperation that we've received from that minister in regard to numerous approvals and improvements throughout the constituency regarding lottery applications, PEETS grants, improving the Knowledge Network in Sicamous and Armstrong, and the many new fire halls throughout the constituency: in the communities of Swansea Point, Celista, Lee Creek, the White Lake fire hall and, to be constructed within the next few weeks, a new fire hall for the beautiful community of Salmon Ann in the Shuswap-Revelstoke constituency.

Mr. Chairman, in looking across the constituency in the last few months I can see improvements made by the Armstrong Kinsmen Club to the softball facilities in that community, hall improvements being made in the community of Ashton Creek, and things such as a new gas furnace for the seniors in the Silver Creek area. Mr. Chairman, the list goes on. I'd just like the minister to know the deep appreciation of all of the constituents throughout Shuswap-Revelstoke. I see a new hall under construction in the community of Pritchard; new facilities for the seniors in the Sicamous community, and tremendous improvements about to take place in the city of Revelstoke with the heritage buildings. Tens of thousands of dollars are going to be spent in that community on improving the beautiful heritage sites in the community of Revelstoke, and I know all of the citizens of that community would appreciate my passing on their thanks to the minister for this assistance from the lottery fund. I also think of the Interior Provincial Exhibition grounds, with which the previous Minister of Agriculture is very familiar. Mr. Chairman, I believe we've had four new horse-barns built, made possible by the generosity and support of the lotteries in the province of British Columbia.

Mr. Chairman, I could go on. I'm talking about the new bleacher facilities in the Salmon Arm fall fair grounds and the improvements now under construction in the Armstrong curling rink.

I would not like these estimates to go by without taking my place and passing on to the minister the thanks of all of those volunteer organizations — organizations made up of people who give their time freely. They need a little bit of assistance to make these tremendous things happen throughout the community of Shuswap-Revelstoke. I'm looking forward to the day when the minister will visit the community of Shuswap-Revelstoke. I could perhaps spend a day or a day and a half with her, taking her around and showing her these beautiful improvements throughout the very lovely, diversified constituency of Shuswap-Revelstoke.

[ Page 8500 ]

[11:45]

MR. HANSON: I'm sure that member has seen lottery disbursements dribbled through in a political fashion in his riding, in an attempt to get support in the next provincial election, but certainly I think Mr. Gordon Priestman is going to do extremely well in Shuswap-Revelstoke.

MR. MICHAEL: I think you're right: he is going to do well.

MR. HANSON: You betcha.

I'm happy that the minister has indicated that the four lottery reports that have not been filed in this House will be filed this afternoon. I'm very pleased about that.

Now I'd like to ask her a question with respect to casino gambling. The minister — I believe it was last Friday — issued a press release indicating that regulations were in place now covering bingo and casino gambling, but it appears that the regulations are only covering bingo, and we have not seen the casino-related regulations. Where are they?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Could I just respond to the other question as well that was raised by the member for Victoria prior to the very fine remarks from the member for Shuswap-Revelstoke. He asked about Islands 86. Islands 86 as you know, was given support from the government, and believe they have their cheque. You ask whether they have their cheque. I believe they have. I'll be very glad to check into that for you. However, there was a delay in their cheque because the information that they were providing was not sufficient. It was delayed because of that, but that's all. It was just a technical thing, and I don't think it had been delayed very long. I believe they have their cheque, but I wouldn't like to say for sure.

Secondly, you made a comment regarding the quarterly reports. I want you to know that the one that I will file today, I am told, is the last quarter of 1984-85. The ministry staff are compiling at this time the ones which follow that, and we hopefully will get them into the House before this session ends. So I want you to know that not four reports will be in the House this afternoon, but one, the last quarter of 1984-85....

You asked about the new regulations for casinos and bingos. Those regulations will be made public. I think that the sense, the meaning, the spirit was certainly very well covered by the media. However, if there are any further questions on regulations, I would be extremely pleased to let you know.

I find it interesting that what really inspires the humour of the member for Vancouver East.... He laughs at very strange things, and I don't know what is so comical about the remark I just made. I really wasn't planning to be funny. But if he gets a kick out of it, fine. He likes to interrupt.

Anyway, I thought I had sent the regulations to your office last Friday, by the way. If you haven't received the ones that are now printed, I would be very pleased to make those available. I thought I had done that, but I'll check on it.

MR. HANSON: Mr. Chairman, when the minister held her press conference and indicated that there would be regulations for casino gambling and bingo, it appears.... I think I have received the bingo regulations. Is this the document that the minister is referring to — "Policy Directives Respecting Licensing of Lottery Events"? It has bingo, but it doesn't appear to have casino. For Bob Stewart of the Vancouver police this is the area of real concern, because if commercial gambling, which has just exploded in many parts of British Columbia in terms of the number of places in which it is taking place seven days a week.... The police are very concerned about the possibility of underworld activity around that. They want tough controls in place now before it grows any bigger. We need to know where those casino regulations are. You indicated that you were releasing them, but all we have are bingo regulations.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Yes, you are perfectly right that you did not receive.... I thought that you hadn't received the others, and I was worried about that. The regulations are underway, following a very good study that was made with police enforcers across the country, not just in British Columbia. The head of the vice squad just today was singing the praises of the regulations — both the ones which will be forthcoming because he is knowledgeable of them and the ones that have also been announced — and the spirit of the announcement. So you're perfectly right; everyone is concerned. That's why when I first came into this ministry I made the commitment that there would be some changes made. Those have been done. The regulations will be forthcoming very shortly in order to give people who are in that business, and also the charities who have been involved and also the interested public, the details of those regulations. They will be made available shortly. But, frankly, I thought it was important, before the staff had finished getting them into the regulation form, to put a stop to the proliferation. Each and every week added more, and I really wanted to put a stop to that very rapid growth. I believe members on both sides of the House agree with that action.

MR. MacWILLIAM: My colleague brings up a point that I wanted to discuss also with the minister. The minister is quite accurate when she says that regulations were forwarded to our offices. Those in fact are the regulations governing bingo operations but certainly not regulations regarding the casino operations. So the press release dated May 30 from the minister's office is in fact misleading, because it does give the impression and in fact did give the impression — in talking to the media throughout the province — that the regulations had already been released. That's not the case. They have not been released.

The other misleading impression is that.... I'll read the quote: "The new bingo and casino policy directives are the result of consultations with a wide variety of community groups." I agree with half of the statement. There was consultation with regard to a discussion of bingo regulations. That was distributed under the previous minister, and various community groups were given the opportunity to respond; I had a few words on the matter myself. However, the regulations pertaining to casinos were not, to my knowledge, given a wide input from the community at large. I think that the minister is deliberately misleading here, because there was no opportunity for public input on this.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Would the hon. member withdraw the comment "deliberately misleading."

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MR. MacWILLIAM: I withdraw the comment, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps it was non-deliberate, but misleading nonetheless, that there was....

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Misleading or accusing....

MR. MacWILLIAM: I'm referring to the statement, Mr. Chairman. The statement is misleading.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You're not suggesting the minister was misleading.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I'm not suggesting, of course, that the minister is misleading.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Taken as withdrawn.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I think that the minister's statement has some confusion, and there was not any degree of community input when these regulations were drafted. I would like to ask the minister why there was not an opportunity for community input, why there was not an opportunity for debate of this matter, why there were no interim draft regulations presented and there was no discussion allowed on that basis. Can the minister respond to that?

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: The member makes some allegations about misinformation, but I have to say that we were all given warning. When I first took on this ministry, I gave the statement in the House in response to, I believe, that very member — maybe not; maybe the first member for Victoria (Mr. Hanson), who asked about casinos and the bingo games — and I said that I was very concerned. If you look up the Blues of the past, Hansard of the past, you will know that I made that statement, and it should be no surprise to you that I did tidy up the regulations and am awaiting now the regulations for casinos to be in proper form so they can be distributed properly.

I want you to know they are done, and the reason that they weren't ready for the press conference on Friday was that some members of one group did not have an opportunity to look at them — the law enforcement group. We wanted to be sure that they did have that opportunity. However, we will be bringing them forth, and we will certainly make them available to you.

I don't think the member said that we did not have good input from law enforcement agencies. I don't believe he made that comment, but maybe it would make you feel a little more comfortable to know that we sought not just information from within the province of British Columbia but also from across Canada. I am given to understand that we had very good input from the law enforcement agencies on this subject. You will have the opportunity to see those regulations in the very near future, because we want them circulated so they will be well known by everyone who is involved in the game, if you will pardon the expression.

MR. MacWILLIAM: It's been brought to my attention that the police.... On CBC this morning, one of the inspectors in Vancouver as much as admitted that there was no input.

Let me go on record as saying I don't disagree with the direction the minister is taking. We have some very serious concerns about the matter ourselves. What does concern me is that there has not been adequate public participation; there has not been adequate time to vet the regulations to see if there are any shortcomings in them. I would suggest to the minister — in fact ask the minister — if she could perhaps give the public, the community groups, the police an opportunity now, before those regulations go to final draft form.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Chairman. I thank the member for his advice. He preambled the discussion on casinos — as did the first member for Victoria before him — with his own awareness that the fear of the casino operation was that it would perhaps bring organized crime. No one is disagreeing with that. I think any further delay in the action would perhaps have resulted in.... As minister responsible, I felt the action had to be very fast once I had the information, and I take full responsibility for acting that quickly. I have no trouble with that at all.

I don't want to keep returning to this, but I want the second member for Victoria to know that Islands '86 did receive their cheque about three weeks ago.

Now I'd like to move that this committee rise and report great progress.

The House resumed; Mr. Strachan in the chair.

The committee, having reported progress, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. Mr. Nielsen moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 11:59 a.m.