[ Page 6695 ]

CONTENTS

British Columbia Human Rights Code, 1985 (Bill M220). Mr. Gabelmann

Introduction and first reading –– 6695

Pacific Vocational Institute And British Columbia Institute Of Technology Amalgama-

tion Act, 1985 (Bill 59). Hon. Mr. Heinrich

Introduction and first reading –– 6695

Oral Questions

Westar Timber Ltd. Mr. D'Arcy –– 6696

Brunette River spill. Mr. Parks –– 6696

Mrs. Wallace

Ministry of Transportation and Highways ferries. Mr. Lockstead –– 6696

Kitimat school board. Mr. Howard –– 6697

OAP rent increases. Mr. Blencoe –– 6697

Wells Gray provincial park. Mr. Mitchell –– 6697

Presenting Petitions –– 6698

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Labour estimates. (Hon. Mr. Segarty)

On vote 51: minister's office –– 6698

Mrs. Wallace

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Tourism estimates. (Hon. Mr. Richmond)

On vote 65: minister's office –– 6700

Hon. Mr. Richmond

Mr. MacWilliam

Mr. Davis

Mr. R. Fraser

Mr. Blencoe

Mr. Lockstead

Mr. Howard

Mrs. Wallace

Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 1985 (Bill 61). Hon. Mr. Segarty

Introduction and first reading –– 6721

Tabling Documents –– 6721

The House met at 2:05 p.m.

MR. REYNOLDS: Mr. Speaker, in your gallery this afternoon are Don and Eileen Campbell, visiting us from Australia. I wish the House would make them welcome.

HON. MR. RITCHIE: There are two prominent businessmen visiting with us today from Central Fraser Valley. They are Mr. Art Spyker and Mr. Harry Bicknell. Would the House please make these gentlemen welcome.

MRS. WALLACE: In the members' gallery today is the president of the Cowichan Home and School Association, Eva Towner; Fran Darling, the secretary of the Cowichan Home and School Association; and Dominique Roclants, ex-trustee. I'd like the House to make them welcome.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Speaker, I'm very pleased this afternoon to ask the House to welcome representatives from the British Columbia division of the Girl Guides of Canada. The Girl Guides are celebrating their seventy fifth anniversary this year. I want the House to recognize the valuable service the Girl Guides and their leaders have given to the community. Through their service the girls learn the value of community involvement, and this experience guides them to become the leaders of the future. Will the House please join me in welcoming Mrs. Dolores Racine, the provincial commissioner; Mrs. Pat Leake, deputy provincial commissioner; and a class of Brownies, Guides, Pathfinders and Rangers who are with us today.

MR. REID: Mr. Speaker, it's a pleasure to introduce, in your gallery, my mother, from Lake Havasu, Arizona, the home of London Bridge. Would the House please make her welcome.

MRS. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker, I have several guests to introduce. You know, in British Columbia we have one of the best local fairs held anywhere. I would ask the House to please welcome today members representing the PNE, Erwin Swangard, Gordon Chudberry, Len Bawtree — directors and members of the board — and to thank them for the excellent job they do of continuing to work on our behalf to put forward this fair.

I would also like the House to welcome constituents of mine, George and Muriel Galicz, as well as a very enterprising businessman from Surrey, Leonard Friesen. Please make them all welcome.

MR. REE: Mr. Speaker, in the gallery today are constituents of mine: a gentleman who looks after man's best friend, Dr. Richard Earnshaw, a veterinarian in North Vancouver, and his wife Marilyn; and with him other guests from Sydney, Australia, his brother Dr. Desmond Earnshaw and his lovely wife Lorraine. Will the House please welcome them to Victoria and British Columbia.

HON. MR. HEWITT: Mr. Speaker, in the members' gallery today are a number of gentlemen from the city of Penticton, members of staff and board of trustees of the Penticton Regional Hospital: Mr. Don Gray, Mr. Ron Mason, Len Grant and Lavern Fox. I'd ask the House to bid these gentlemen welcome.

MR. REID: It must be the weather, Mr. Speaker, everybody coming to Victoria. I'd like to introduce to the House today Mr. Marvin Hunt, a member of the school board from Surrey, and 20 grade 11 and 12 students from the Bible Fellowship Christian Academy, from sunny Surrey, who brought the sun with them. Would the House make them welcome.

HON. MR. GARDOM: In the remote likelihood that there is anyone in the galleries not yet introduced, may I wish them a very cordial welcome to our Legislative Assembly.

Introduction of Bills

BRITISH COLUMBIA HUMAN RIGHTS CODE, 1985

Mr. Gabelmann presented a bill intituled British Columbia Human Rights Code, 1985.

MR. GABELMANN: Mr. Speaker, very briefly, this bill is an update of a bill I introduced last year, the British Columbia Human Rights Code, 1984, and at the time I indicated that I would seek response from people around British Columbia in respect of the language and drafting of that legislation. I received considerable response to it, and as a result of that have made a number of major changes in approach in terms of this particular private member's bill.

I think the most significant thing is that the language in the legislation, as now proposed, makes human rights a positive rather than a negative thing. We have, traditionally, in lawmaking in human rights fields, said very clearly to people what they cannot do. What I've tried to do in this particular legislation is describe what human rights are in a positive way rather than in a negative one. I trust that all members will have an opportunity to look at this. I trust that members of the public, too, will have an opportunity to consider it and to provide me with further feedback so that in the unlikely event that the government doesn't bring in similar legislation in the meantime, I'll be able to bring in an even better bill in 1986.

Bill M220, British Columbia Human Rights Code, 1985, introduced, read a first time, and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

PACIFIC VOCATIONAL INSTITUTE AND
BRITISH COLUMBIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY
AMALGAMATION ACT, 1985

Hon. Mr. Heinrich presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Pacific Vocational Institute and British Columbia Institute of Technology Amalgamation Act, 1985.

HON. MR. HEINRICH: Mr. Speaker, if I just may make one comment, the bill is really very technical in nature, and it will facilitate the amalgamation of BCIT and PVI. There are a number of people who have been involved in its preparation — both the faculty and the people charged with the administration of the institute.

[ Page 6696 ]

Bill 59, Pacific Vocational Institute and British Columbia Institute of Technology Amalgamation Act, 1985, introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

[2:15]

Oral Questions

WESTAR TIMBER LTD.

MR. D'ARCY: This is a question that could go either to the Minister of Forests (Hon. Mr. Waterland), who is not here, or to the Minister of Environment, who is here. So you're the lucky guy.

Mr. Speaker, Westar Timber's Castlegar pulp mill for years has never come close to meeting basic provincial minimum pollution control standards for both atmospheric and liquid emissions, despite being consistently one of the most profitable pulp mills in British Columbia.

As the five-year management plan for TFL 23 is currently being reviewed, has the minister decided to require that basic pollution control standard compliance be met as part of a condition for renewal of a management plan for that company's access to a public resource?

HON. MR. PELTON: I thank the member for the question. I have found myself very popular over the last week or so in answering the odd question.

To the matter that has been raised by the hon. member, I would certainly assume that my ministry would become involved under the circumstances which he relates. However, I do not have any particular details on this matter. In view of that, I would take the question as notice and bring back a detailed answer to the member at the earliest possible opportunity.

MR. D'ARCY: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the minister, I would have initially preferred to talk to the Minister of Forests about this question.

For the minister's information, I discussed it with his ministry. Yes, they are concerned about it, but they are not involved in discussions or requirements around the renewal of the management plan. I am wondering if the minister can give us all a commitment that he will see that his ministry and the Ministry of Forests get together on this and that the public interest, especially in the community, be recognized.

I want to point out that this particular mill has been failing to do what its competitors have had to do over the years. They're all selling in the same market, so in fairness to their competitors as well as to the general public, will the minister make a commitment that there be a discussion between his people and Forests before this management plan is renewed?

HON. MR. PELTON: I'd be pleased to make the commitment to the member that my ministry will become involved and that the interests of the public, which are always uppermost in our minds, will be taken care of during the discussions.

BRUNETTE RIVER SPILL

MR. PARKS: I have a question to the Minister of Environment. As the House is well aware, we've just experienced a disastrous fish kill on the Brunette stream. But it appears that it wasn't an accidental discharge, if the media reports are accurate; rather, that someone intentionally discharged into the system a substance that found its way into the Brunette creek. Can the minister advise this House whether or not a police investigation has commenced with respect to that assertion?

HON. MR. PELTON: The report I had just before coming into the House in respect of this spill in the Brunette creek is that the investigation, which is being made primarily by the federal Ministry of Fisheries and Oceans, aided and abetted by personnel from my ministry, is still underway. At this point they still are not...they don't know what the toxic chemical was. As to whether it was done purposefully or accidentally, I would be most reluctant to speculate on that until such time as the investigation is complete.

MRS. WALLACE: To the Minister of Environment on a supplementary. Inasmuch as there are many possible polluters in the particular area that feeds into the Brunette River where the pollution was found, what is the minister prepared to do to try to sort out who is guilty? Is it not almost an impossible task, and does it not prove that what we need is a hazardous wastes disposal facility in this province?

HON. MR. PELTON: I'm not quite positive of the meaning of the member's use of the word "polluters." I don't know whether she means people polluting, or means tributaries that run into the main creek. Any of these investigations are very difficult; I'm sure they'll come up with some satisfactory results in the long run.

The question asked by the hon. member regarding the disposition of toxic wastes: as I recall, she asked the same question yesterday. The treatment and disposition of toxic wastes is a matter that is under discussion at all times, and I think we're moving down the road to the point where these things will be taken care of.

MINISTRY OF TRANSPORTATION
AND HIGHWAYS FERRIES

MR. LOCKSTEAD: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Transportation and Highways. Recently the minister announced that the saltwater ferry fleet of the Ministry of Transportation and Highways will be turned over to the B.C. Ferry Corporation. I might take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, to thank the minister for having hand-delivered to me this morning a copy of a letter relating to this matter. What assurance will the minister give that this decision will not result in reduced services and increased fares for residents served by these vessels?

MR. SPEAKER: The question implies, in part, hon. member, future action. The minister may wish to reply to part of the question.

HON. A. FRASER: Mr. Speaker, I guess we should reply. It isn't the intent to reduce the service. We have a

[ Page 6697 ]

committee working all those factors out, and I don't think that will be the case.

MR. LOCKSTEAD: Supplementary, I appreciate the minister's answer, and I hope this action does not lead to increased fares and reduced service. Has the minister decided to assure employees of the ministry's ferry service that no employees will lose their jobs as a result of this transfer?

HON. A. FRASER: There are, I believe, around 400 employees involved here, and it's not the intent that any of the employees will lose their jobs. They'll go from the Ministry of Transportation and Highways to the B.C. Ferry Corporation.

KITIMAT SCHOOL BOARD

MR. HOWARD: I have a question to the immediate past Attorney-General in his capacity as acting Attorney-General today. In light of the intrusions into the right of free speech in Kitimat with respect to the school board there, will the Attorney-General or the acting Attorney-General conduct an inquiry or a hearing into that whole question of impingements upon free speech in that school district?

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Speaker, I can't give the hon. member that assurance, nor am I completely certain that the facts are technically as stated in every respect. But I can certainly assure him that I will draw it to the attention of my colleague. And if my colleague is not back here in time, I'll make the necessary inquiries myself, sir.

OAP RENT INCREASES

MR. BLENCOE: I have a question for the Minister of Lands, Parks and Housing. This year and next the minister is imposing major rent increases on low-income senior citizens through the B.C. Housing Management Commission. When I asked this question before, the minister gave information which wasn't totally correct. Stage 2 of those increases is being implemented up to September of this year; stage 3 will start in September and end in September of next year, for a total 3.5 percent increase for seniors that the minister can change today. Has the minister decided that he will now suspend these increases in view of the federal government's decision to de-index pension income, and at least roll back this 3.5 percent increase for senior citizens in the province of British Columbia?

HON. MR. BRUMMET: The answer is no. The decision was made — I don't know the exact date, but it was some time ago — to move up to 30 percent of income. Rather than do it at one time, it was decided to do it in three stages; and that's proceeding.

MR. BLENCOE: The decision was made two years ago, but the implications are still being felt, and the increases are still being put in place. What we're asking is that you roll back the increases still being carried out today and next year.

A supplementary question to the minister. Has the minister now been advised of the combined impact of pension deindexing and substantial provincial rent increases at the same time, and will the minister reconsider his decision and show some flexibility for British Columbia's senior citizens?

HON. MR. BRUMMET: I don't think the member is listening. The decision was made to move from the 25 to 30 percent; and rather than do it at one time, it was decided to phase it in for existing tenants and apply it to new tenants as it came up. Now he's talking about changing the 5 percent decision. The answer is no. That decision was made, and it was just spaced out over three years.

MR. BLENCOE: Another supplementary. The minister is missing the point. He has the power to show some flexibility. He has the power to roll back the 3.5 percent increase. He can do it today, yet he's saying he's totally intransigent and won't move on this issue. Question to the minister: why will you not roll back the 3.5 percent for British Columbia seniors when the federal government is de-indexing pensions? At least show some flexibility toward senior citizens in the province of British Columbia.

WELLS GRAY PROVINCIAL PARK

MR. MITCHELL: A question to the Minister of Lands, Parks and Housing. The government has commenced a public relations initiative to promote the new master plan for Wells Gray park. Will the minister advise why he has refused to convene full public hearings on this question to provide for a meaningful dialogue with the public before the new master plan is implemented?

HON. MR. BRUMMET: Well, again the member is inaccurate. There have been public meetings on this. There are further public meetings scheduled. If they don't happen to satisfy the one critic that seems to be trying to get some press out of it or to make some political mileage out of it, then I'm sorry. There will be public meetings. There has been public input. There will be other public input.

The plan that is going ahead at this point is only the improvement of existing facilities. There are no new initiatives being taken in the park.

MR. MITCHELL: A provincial park official, Mr. Derek Thompson, has said that the public input will end by early July. Why has the government decided to oppose this arbitrary deadline? What is the minister trying to avoid?

HON. MR. BRUMMET: Mr. Speaker, I certainly resent the implication that we're trying to avoid something by saying that the public hearings shall be held and completed by a certain date. I know that member would like to see discussions go on for six years, and nothing done. Well, okay —I'm not disposed that way.

[2:30]

MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, I personally resent that implication that I want this to go on for six years.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh'.

MR. MITCHELL: I do.

My question is to the minister again. It is important, if we are going to develop one of the largest wilderness areas that we have had, with the tragic results that have taken place in the Wells Gray area.... This park development must have public input. I ask the minister again: why is there a mad rush

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to develop something without the consensus of the general public in that area?

HON. MR. BRUMMET: I withdraw the six years; he probably only wants five. There is no mad rush. We're simply saying that there is a time set for public hearings. We schedule these public hearings and then — I think you used the key word — we would like to get on with the development not 10 years from now but as soon as possible.

MR. MICHAEL: Mr. Speaker, I would ask leave to make an introduction.

Leave granted.

MR. MICHAEL: I would ask that the House make welcome a group of students from the Falkland School. I should add that Falkland is the home of the greatest rodeo in all of British Columbia.

MR. BARNES: Mr. Speaker, with leave I would like to present a petition concerning the reinstatement of fired school board trustees.

MR. SPEAKER: The presentation of the petition is in order, hon. member.

Presenting Petitions

MR. BARNES: I would first like to say that seated in the gallery are a number of the trustees, the Vancouver School Board chairman and other petitioners. The petition contains some 10,000 signatures from cities and communities throughout the province, and was handed to me by Mr. Robert Poburko of the Trafalgar School Consultative Committee. The petition is addressed to this honourable assembly and states:

"The petition of the undersigned residents in the province of British Columbia, who now avail themselves of their ancient and undoubted right thus to present a grievance common to your petitioners in the certain assurance that your honourable House will therefore provide a remedy, humbly sheweth:

" That the legally elected trustees of the Vancouver School Board (Pauline Weinstein, Phil Rankin, Graeme Waymark, Jonathan Baker, John Church, Gary Onstad, Carmela Allevato, Ken Denike, Bill Brown) be reinstated without delay in the name of democratic preservation.

" That the legally elected trustees of the Cowichan School Board (Jerry Joyce, Ann Andersen, Anne Murray, Jan Broadland, Dave Garnett, Bob Rogers, Glen Ridgway, Dominique Roelants, Bill McKenzie) be reinstated without delay in the name of democratic preservation."

I would ask that the House receive the petition as read.

MR. SPEAKER: The presentation part is in order. Hon. member, just submit it to the table.

Orders of the Day

HON. MR. GARDOM: Committee of Supply, Mr. Speaker.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Ree in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF LABOUR
(continued)

On vote 51: minister's office, $210,175.

MRS. WALLACE: As you will recall, Mr. Chairman, before the lunch break I was just about to ask a few questions of the minister. They all deal with workers' compensation. The one specific question that I want to deal with is related to compensation for people employed on the government work programs. They used to be known as EBAP, now ERDA. Some of those are joint programs shared partially by federal and provincial governments. Some are solely federal. What has happened, I'm sure the minister is aware, is that when they are solely federal programs, workers' compensation does not apply.

While it is true that the various people involved took out some private insurance, it was certainly not adequate. I had a great number of cases come through my office where people were injured on those EBAP jobs, and I expect the same will be true of any of the ERDA jobs which are not shared. There are some that are not shared, as I understand it from the information that I have from the federal people. Those people are discriminated against because they do not have the protection of our Workers Compensation Act rules and regulations here in British Columbia. They are working at forestry jobs in the main, where historically we know it to be a hazardous job. The private insurance is simply not adequate. It doesn't provide the same kinds of benefits, and it is very difficult to substantiate a claim. It's a real hardship on those people.

I would hope that the minister, in his much touted review of what's going on in WCB — and he has made a lot of statements about the things he's going to change there — will bear that in mind and ensure that that coverage is extended to people working on those federal programs. Because he has indicated that he is going to review....

Do you want to answer that one first?

HON. MR. SEGARTY: The employees working under the EBAP program were covered under class 13. That's a provincial government class. If you have any people having difficulty in that particular area, I'd appreciate you maybe getting in touch with my ministry staff or myself, and we may be able to help you out in that area.

MRS. WALLACE: I certainly will get in touch with the minister then, because that was not the information provided to the EBAP employees. In fact, private insurance was taken out. I don't know off the bat what section 13 is, but does that actually provide the same kind of coverage that any other worker in the forest industry would receive?

HON. MR. SEGARTY: It covers the same class as other government employees across British Columbia — the same coverage. If you wish, maybe afterwards I'll get my assistant deputy minister responsible for that area to talk to you. Maybe you could provide him with the information, and we may be able to help out your constituents in that regard.

MRS. WALLACE: I hope that's retroactive, because the case in point is dealing with Harman Wilson and Co., who were the solicitors for a job creation project under section 38

[ Page 6699 ]

of the UIC Act. They hired solicitors to deal with this injured worker, in the main to prevent them from having to make payments because it was a private company that was involved. So there's something very strange going on here when that is taking place. I'll be happy to discuss it with the minister or his deputy at a later date.

I know that WCB has been discussed at some length, but I think it is important that the minister is aware of.... I know he's aware of a lot of the problems, but I think it's important that he be aware of two or three case histories, and I'll be very brief. They're the kind of situations that develop as a result of problems within WCB. One of them is when there's a conflict between WCB and ICBC — when there is a vehicle accident which involves someone who is working. In one instance it was in fact a self-employed person who had covered himself under WCB. He presented all the information, all the details, to WCB. Several months later, somebody else in WCB who apparently had never heard of anything that he had provided got back to him and said that ICBC was taking this thing to court, which is again a great expense — trying to resolve a difference between two Crown corporations. ICBC was maintaining various positions: that the man appeared to have ample income, so why should he be complaining or trying to get a settlement; that he had actually been working in his company — he was self-employed, as I say — during some of the periods when he was picking up benefits from ICBC. All that information had been provided, but the person who had written the second time to this constituent had never even heard that this was provided. I can tell you, my constituent was mightily upset and mightily insulted at getting this kind of a runaround.

So I would like to commend to the minister the idea of looking at the situations when those kinds of differences occur. Do we have to go to court to settle differences that are going to come out of two Crown corporations? Isn't there some way that that could be settled? If one or the other is responsible, surely the main concern should be to get the benefits that are justly due to the injured person, rather than spending all the time deciding who's responsible for it, one trying to outdo the other and saying, well, you know, maybe it's not their responsibility.

Another case that I have has been ongoing for, I think, 20 years. This man has had several different accidents and has been appealing the results because he has never been able.... He is not able to work. He has been retrained in some instances. But basically what has happened is that he appealed four different decisions that were made back in April, 1984. The results finally came down May 23, 1985, finding against him in all four decisions. There is something wrong with that kind of situation. A man who is incapacitated.... I know the man personally; he's been in and out of my office for the last ten years. He is not able to work. He has tried everything the WCB has suggested, and it just is not possible for him to carry out any of those things.

One of the reasons for turning him down was that he was injured during the war. They're trying to say that it's a war-related injury. His first injury occurred in 1961 — of these four injuries I'm talking about. That was almost 20 years after his war injury. Yet the decision read that he was accident-prone as a result of the war injury. There's something wrong, Mr. Chairman, with WCB taking that kind of attitude — that a man who unfortunately suffered four injuries was accident-prone because of a war injury 20 years before. I think that that kind of a policy in a Crown corporation that's issuing those kinds of decisions certainly should be reviewed.

The third thing that I want to deal with is another instance. This man was an autobody painter. He had a WCB accident, and he had to take physiotherapy. It was an approved accident; he took the physiotherapy, but suddenly he was told: "You're only entitled to ten treatments, and you'd better settle the rest of those with your therapist, because you were cured after the ten treatments."

[2:45]

He was not cured, Mr. Chairman. He had extensive surgery to his knee. The surgeon who performed the surgery indicated that he would not be able to return to his original profession. He was taken over to the assessment centre in Richmond and was examined there by a WCB doctor. He went to the rehabilitation clinic for two weeks, and he was told to exercise the knee and see what happened. He did gym and he did all sorts of running and weightlifting with his legs, and his knee was getting sorer and sorer. What the therapist told him was: "Well, if it starts to swell, come and see me. Now go and get dressed."

He went to get dressed, and his leg was starting to swell after this two-hour workout. He went to see the therapist, and the therapist said: "I'm going to lunch. Come back at 4:00." At 4:00, the swelling had started to go down, of course, because he was taking it easy in that period of time. He had no more tests, no more examinations, no more anything; he was sent home and they said that he was ready to go back to work, so no more therapy, in spite of the fact that his surgeon had recommended that he not return to that particular occupation.

This was one of the instances that was interesting in that it was not just the employee but the employer who came to see me, absolutely shocked at what had happened to his employee as far as WCB goes.

The fourth and final one that I want to draw to the minister's attention deals with another self-employed person. In submitting his returns to WCB, his bookkeeper ticked off the wrong column. He showed two employees, when actually it was the father and son who operated the company. They sent in the same amount of dollars to cover the premiums as they would have had it been shown under the proper column. He had an accident. He's still on crutches. WCB has refused to accept that, because the bookkeeper put it in the wrong column.

He appealed. The board of review had a split decision. The chairman of the board came out in favour of the employee, because he said it was just a bookkeeping error, the dollars were the same and the employee should be paid. The other members of the board came out in the other direction, so he lost his appeal. He has now appealed to the commissioners. In the meantime, he is not able to work. He is self-employed, as I say; he's going to lose his business and probably his home if he doesn't get some payments.

He has another problem with the Minister of Forests relative to payment for subcontracting that he did. That's probably also with the Minister of Labour — on these subcontracts, which can be quite a difficult problem for people who take a subcontract and then receive no payment from the contractor.

That's his situation. He has a double whammy there. The contractor hasn't paid him for the work he did, and he has a lien against the logs, which are apparently non-existent or non-saleable; plus the fact that he can't get his WCB payments. His wife has a job in a little local store, and that's the

[ Page 6700 ]

only thing keeping bread on the table. This has gone on for a long time. He appealed to the commissioners way back in early February or late January, and there's still no response. I suggest that's a pretty traumatic experience for someone to go through and a very unfortunate position for a Crown corporation to place a citizen of this province in.

I've drawn those to the minister's attention because I know he is reviewing WCB. If he wants any further details, I would be happy to speak with him about it. But I think it is important that he knows what is happening to the average person out there in the workplace as a result of the board for which he is responsible.

Vote 51 approved.

Vote 52: ministry operations, $54,027,722 — approved.

Vote 81: student employment programs, $10,000,000 — approved.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF TOURISM

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Chairman, I call vote 65. Resolved: that a sum not exceeding $151,996 be granted to Her Majesty to defray the expenses of the Ministry of Tourism, the hon. minister's office. And well do I know the minister, one of our better ministers. I'm sure that very shortly the minister will be approaching the premises. As a matter of fact, he's here now.

Mr. Minister, I was just extolling your many virtues, which would take a great deal longer than the time of sitting this afternoon, so I will turn the floor over to you, sir.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I appreciate that, sir. I was waiting for my critic.

On vote 65: minister's office, $151,996.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I just have a short opening statement to read into my estimates. Then I'll be happy to take questions from the opposition, I'm sure.

First of all, I am very pleased to report that the tourism industry in this province continues to grow, providing in excess of 100,000 jobs for British Columbians who work for more than 10,000 businesses. Revenues rose from $2.15 billion in 1983 to more than $2.3 billion this past year, an increase of 7.9 percent.

Substantial increases in the numbers of United States and overseas visitors were recorded. Revenues from U.S. residents rose 12 percent, while overseas visitor revenues increased 11.4 percent. The interest is high: inquiries from prospective visitors increased 44 percent over the previous year, the second straight year that inquiries have shown a major increase.

It is particularly pleasing to note that British Columbia this past year has consistently outperformed other Canadian provinces in its ability to attract U.S. visitors, who bring to British Columbia not only an adventurous spirit but also a strong currency. The continued development of overseas markets is equally pleasing, for these visitors bring aggressive spending habits which greatly benefit the people of British Columbia.

The outlook for tourism in British Columbia can modestly be described as outstanding. In the short term, 1985 appears to be building strongly toward the Expo 86 year. I am confident that the Expo 86 Corporation's projection of 13.75 million site visits will prove to be modest. There are always those, I suppose, who will be negative and may see it differently. But people in the tourism industry throughout this province are getting ready to host the world in style. Not only will Expo bring significant benefit to downtown British Columbia, the lower mainland, but it will also bring people and dollars to all points of the province.

Our province is truly gearing up for Expo. There are more than 80 Expo committees throughout British Columbia, each with exciting plans and projects. Add to these efforts the major promotional initiatives, such as Islands 86 here on Vancouver Island, the Go for the Gold promotion in the Cariboo and the numerous other promotional campaigns planned by tourism associations in B.C.'s nine tourism regions, and it is evident that the industry understands the potential benefits of Expo 86.

These are exciting times, but the real fun is just around the comer. It's just coming. Expo 86 itself is in great shape. I am happy to report that Expo is on time and on budget. To date, over 40 countries have signed up and will have pavilions at the fair, while 26 major corporations have agreed to participate. Foreign participation, Mr. Chairman, from countries in our key tourism markets is excellent, with the United States, Britain, West Germany and Japan, all vital to our long-range tourism successes, making major investments in the site. Major corporations such as General Motors, IBM, CP Air — yesterday we signed up Xerox Corp. — and others are committed to spending well over $140 million, either onsite or in promotional support of the fair. I would add, Mr. Chairman, that the corporate participation now far surpasses that of any other world exposition; it even surpasses the corporate participation in the 1984 Olympics in Los Angeles, except for the television contracts. So we're well over $140 million in corporate participation. The blend of foreign nations and corporations is a tribute to the fair's management and is just one more reason for all British Columbians to feel pride in their world's fair.

This May 2, one full year ahead of the fair's official opening, the Expo Centre opened for business. It has started to provide people with not only a sense of what this fair is all about, but is demonstrating in the best possible way that Expo 86 will indeed be ready from the opening day through to October 13, 1986. It has already had the pleasing effect of demonstrating to a critical and demanding press corps that Expo 86 and quality are synonymous, a notion that is now being reflected in the media around the world, as a result of reportage by more than 150 journalists who attended opening ceremonies at the Expo Centre.

Promotional efforts for Expo 86 started in earnest earlier this month and will build through the fall of 1985 and the spring of 1986 in key market areas, including the U.S. west coast, throughout Canada and, of course, in British Columbia. Over this past year both my ministry and the Expo 86 Corporation have conducted aggressive trade sales activities, designed to assure participation by wholesalers and the trade. The outlook here is excellent. In fact, Expo 86 has already attracted considerably more package tour business — and I should point out that this is virtually guaranteed business — in advance of the opening date than any world's fair staged in North America. As well, group ticket purchases and employee payroll purchase plans such as that conducted by the city of Vancouver are running well ahead of expectations. My

[ Page 6701 ]

ministry has played an active role in these Expo activities and, as well, has embarked upon a series of exciting and innovative programs which have found wide favour with the public and the B.C. tourism industry.

The ministry earlier this year commenced a thorough examination of the market potential of British Columbia tourism. Extensive consumer studies have been undertaken in British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, Alberta, and in parts of California and eastern Canada. Using sophisticated market research techniques, we have been asking consumers what they like and, perhaps more importantly, what they don't like about a vacation in our beautiful province. This research, which allows us to do what any successful private sector business must do, asked its customers what works and what doesn't, and has formed the basis for our advertising and promotional activities, starting this spring.

Our major findings suggest that consumers are no longer attracted by advertising which concentrates on British Columbia's rolling plains, rushing rivers, majestic mountains or sweeping seascapes; rather, consumers today are asking for more and more information about the activities, events and celebrations taking place in our province. Accordingly, the ministry's advertising has become much more specific about opportunities available to visitors.

Evidence of that direction is best shown by distribution of more than four million travel guides inserted in daily newspapers in key British Columbia, Alberta, Washington, Oregon and northern California markets. These guides, a first for Tourism B.C., are very specific about activities, events and things to do in the province, and even go so far as to suggest one-day to one-week driving tours. In addition to the guides, Tourism B.C. will be featuring radio advertising this summer, supporting the content of these guides. Later this year we plan a follow-up guide of a similar nature, with a fall and winter emphasis.

Part of the thrust to more specific and localized promotion is the introduction of our Partners in Tourism program. In essence, it provides matching dollars for cooperative promotional campaigns, based on a submission of regional marketing plans. The ministry will make available at least $1.25 million for such programs, all of which will concentrate on selling the specific merits of events, activities and celebrations in B.C.'s nine tourism regions. The review of these marketing plans concluded last week, and the ministry has been impressed with the quality of thought and thoroughness of the plans submitted by regional tourism associations. There is an abundance of talent in our tourism industry in this province, and it is refreshing to see it displayed in such a workmanlike manner.

[3:00]

With sound consumer research, marketing plans and programs targeted to key markets of high potential, and spending levels which are second only to Ontario, we feel confident that B.C.'s leadership position in tourism marketing will continue to be enhanced.

The marketing operations of my ministry are where we are most visible. However, it should be noted that in this past year the ministry has been reorganized, and now has a strong industry development component. It means that a major part of the ministry's activities will now be directed towards human resource development, the packaging of the industry's many travel opportunities, and bricks-and-mortar considerations.

I'd like to point out that it is in this arm of the ministry that we have developed our Superhost program, an industry-related initiative directed to upgrading service levels within British Columbia. This program is directed at both entrepreneurs and employees of B.C. businesses. We are asking entrepreneurs to sign a pledge to provide quality service, fair exchange and a smile to visitors. We are asking employees to take an eight-hour hospitality course to earn the right to wear a Superhost pin. These employees will be trained by community groups with an interest in training. Tourism B.C. will, in turn, provide training for the trainers — all course materials, appropriate promotional materials and support services. I am happy to tell you that more than 50 groups and organizations have offered to run training courses in their communities since we announced this program on May 13, and the number is growing daily. We will be able to put between 30,000 and 50,000 people through the Superhost program before the opening of Expo 86.

Details of the ministry's reorganization are undoubtedly of minimal interest, but it is safe to say that we have strengthened the ministry considerably. Today there is an expanded marketing group in Vancouver, a new development arm and, of critical importance to the ministry's success, a strong management services group based in Victoria. The organization is peopled by some exceptional public servants at all levels, and I am pleased with the rapid progress being made by the ministry in tackling the many opportunities at hand.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

In closing, I would just like to comment on two small but highly visible activities within my ministry. They are the Royal Hudson steam train and our film promotion activities. The Hudson experienced a 12 percent increase in ridership on its North Vancouver-Squamish route in the 1984-85 season, despite a newspaper strike, which limited promotion opportunities. I am also pleased to report that we constituted the Royal Hudson Steam Train Society just before the government's fiscal year ended, and have turned the operation of the Hudson over to this society. The people of British Columbia will continue to own the priceless heritage that is the Royal Hudson through ownership of all assets associated with it. However, it is our hope that, through the formation of a society, a dedicated core of volunteers and others with a very real affection for the Hudson will lend their considerable talents to its further success.

The film industry recorded another banner year, with films valued at $60 million being shot in British Columbia. The ministry's small, three-person film promotion staff continually out-hustles and outperforms similar units throughout North America, as evidenced by a 250 percent increase in requests for services and information in 1984-85 over the previous year. The coming 12 months will be better yet. Three major movies with budgets of $5.5 million have already been completed in B.C. this year. Another seven, including United Artists' Rocky IV, Disney's Danger Bay and 20th Century Fox's Just Another Missing Kid are either in production or pre-production, and we are close to closing several others. In simple terms, it means we have booked about $40 million worth of business, and there's lots more to come this year.

In summary, I am pleased with the industry's growth, satisfied that my ministry is playing a significant role in the industry's promotion and development, and excited by the

[ Page 6702 ]

prospect of Expo 86 and what it will do for B.C.'s tourism industry. We are now laying solid plans for the post-Expo years, during which we expect to further strengthen tourism's position in a strengthening British Columbia economy. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for your indulgence, and I'd be happy to answer any questions pertaining to my estimates.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Well, that was such a nice accolade. It's too bad that more government members weren't here to listen to all the good news, but so be it.

Interjection.

MR. MacWILLIAM: You've heard it, have you?

Just so the minister knows the direction I'm taking, I'd like to have a look at tourism in general throughout the province of British Columbia, and break it down into three areas: resource identification, marketing and advertising. Then I'd like to make some comments in regard to what has and hasn't been done in the past — directions the ministry has taken. May I take this opportunity to compliment the minister on the direction he is taking. It's very positive, and it's the kind of stuff that I think will enhance tourism in the province, but I'll get back to that later.

I'd like to then do an overview of tourism in British Columbia — where we've been, where we're going, and some suggestions that the minister might want to consider incorporating into his plan. Then I would like to break it down, basically, into some of the regional concerns. I'm going to be speaking in terms of the interior area. We'll open it up at that point for some of my colleagues on this side of the House to talk about concerns in their areas, and then break out into some general questions that have come up over the past few months in regard to tourism. That's part 1.

In part 2 I think we'll maybe have a look at what the minister has been spending a considerable amount of time and energy on, and that's Expo. I'd like to run through a bit of a financial analysis of Expo and some questions in terms of the cost-benefit analysis that has been done but has not been reported on from the ministry; and some general questions that I think will be of interest in terms of the fair.

So let's go back then and begin, once again, with tourism in general. I might say at the outset that I really don't know how long it's going to take. It's my first shot at it, as the minister well knows. I guess we'll fly by the seat of our pants. It could be quite short if he provides the correct answers to the questions, or at least provides answers. It could be quite long if he doesn't provide answers. So I don't know. It might be a long, hot summer. Who knows?

Tourism in British Columbia at this point, I guess as a result of the economic collapse in other sectors, seems to be in a position of being the second or at least one of the major industries in British Columbia. I think revenues — and the minister would agree — for 1983 exceeded some $2 billion. It's certainly not nickel-and-dime stuff; it's big business. Because of its heavy reliance on the small business sector and its labour-intensive nature, it's one of the areas that has the most promise, I would say, for new employment opportunities in this province. It's certainly an area that the government should be fully committed to in terms of job creation strategies. It has great potential. British Columbia — and I think everyone in this House would agree with me — is probably the province that is the most endowed with the natural amenities to encourage this type of industry.

However, when you look at the financial statements in the ministry, I find it a little disturbing to see the lack of commitment — not from this minister, particularly, but from the government as a whole — to making tourism an even larger job-creator playing an even greater role in this province's economy.

The Tourism budget is minuscule when you compare it with other areas, even though it is at this point the second- or third-largest industry in the province. The budget is very small; I believe it's smaller than the government's advertising budget. I grant the fact that there have been increases in marketing — I think about a 9 percent increase this year — an increase in tourism development and a very slight increase in research communications. I think there could have been more emphasis on the allocations for research and communications. But on the whole my criticism is that even though there have been gains, the budget as a whole seems to be insufficient to generate the amount of intense activity needed to really explore the potential of this industry.

As the minister well knows, not only British Columbia but Canada as a whole has been kind of losing ground in terms of competition for the international tourist dollar. If you look at the ministry stats between 1979 and 1983, the volume of visitors to British Columbia has dropped about 11 percent. It may have increased slightly in 1984; I don't have those figures available. But generally speaking there has been a decline. I think this decline has to be countered with a greater commitment to an intensive marketing campaign. The minister is moving in that direction, and I'm happy to see it.

One of the big declines in the province is the result not necessarily of mistakes within the Tourism ministry at all, but I guess a reflection of the general economic climate in British Columbia. There has been a drastic decline in travel by British Columbia residents themselves. The traffic coming across the border from the U.S. and other areas seems to be in pretty good shape, but people in British Columbia simply aren't travelling. Perhaps it's because they don't have the disposable income. If you're unemployed, probably the last thing on your mind is taking a holiday; you're more interested in getting food on the table. I think as a province we've suffered in the tourism area as a result of the poor economic conditions in other sectors of the economy of the province.

I want to give you an example. Again, these are figures cited by the latest ministry report on travel indicators. The occupancy rate in hotels is still below what I'm told is the break-even point of about 60 percent. I believe that on the average the occupancy rate is around 57 percent. This indicates that we've still got a long way to go in terms of a healthy industry, particularly in interior areas. Some of those hotels and motels are in pretty tough shape. I'll be getting back to that later and recommending some possibilities that would help this area of the industry.

I made mention of the fact that the economic performance for tourism is linked to the general economy. Really what we need here in the province, above and beyond a greater commitment to tourism, is the commitment to get British Columbia moving again so that we can take some of that $36 billion in personal savings that's locked up in British Columbia and start to generate some economic activity by getting that money rolling and flowing through the economy.

In 1979 British Columbia's trade deficit was over $250 million; in other words, we were losing more tourist dollars out of the province than we were getting into it. Part of the

[ Page 6703 ]

blame lies in the fact that in the past we haven't been competitive enough in developing and marketing our own tourism potential. I think the minister would agree with that. He does seem to be on the track to correct it.

We need an increased commitment to job creation through tourism and development, a course that really requires a more aggressive and flexible development strategy. I think such a strategy has to show an increased commitment in three areas.

In the area, as I mentioned, of inventory identification, we've got to take a little more time to sit down and find out what our natural attributes are throughout the province, region by region, area by area. And after we've identified those attributes — those historical, cultural, natural, environmental heritages — we've got to set about a strong program to develop them. We need more intensive marketing research, marketing research that has a specific regional focus. We have moved in that direction — I do give you credit for it — but I think there is a lot more work that can be done in rectifying the past mistakes. Of course, a very aggressive advertising and promotional strategy that reflects the regional themes rather than — the minister commented on this earlier — that vague idea of moose, mountains and Mounties........ We have to be quite a bit more specific in promoting an identifiable strategy, area by area.

Some criticisms. We've not done enough homework in the area of resource identification and development. What are the natural heritages and amenities of the nine different tourism regions? What cultural and historical aspects can each of these areas offer? And how can we best preserve and enhance these natural travel generators?

In the past, the entire process of market identification, as I mentioned earlier, has suffered from ad hockery and the lack of adequate market analysis. It's been corrected. We've got a long way to go. We have to identify the consumers' needs and whether or not those needs are being adequately met.

[3:15]

There are some questions that have to be addressed in this area. Where do we draw from in terms of our national North American and international market? The minister has mentioned that he's doing marketing in specific target areas such as California, Oregon and Washington. I would be most interested in seeing a summary of those studies. If the minister would make them available, either tabling them in the House or simply making them available to us, I'd he happy to receive that so that we can have a look at just what has been done.

I think the major question in selling ourselves to the different markets is, what does that person down in California want? What are his needs in terms of encouraging him to travel to British Columbia, and how do his needs differ, for example, from the Japanese tourist or the tourist who is coming over from Alberta and Ontario? They all have different wants and different needs. We have to learn to identify those and to develop the appropriate marketing scheme to attract them.

Some of the factors that seem to be inhibiting tourism development in the past little while, especially in light of the economic conditions, are for example the high gasoline cost in British Columbia, especially in light of the fact that the recent federal budget has tacked on another price increase. Perhaps the minister might address that issue. I'd be interested to know if the minister has attempted, in the interests of promoting tourism, to have his government colleagues have a look at perhaps rolling back some of the provincial tax levies on gas costs to reduce this burden, because tourism involves travel. The majority of that travel involves highway transportation, and certainly increased gasoline costs are dampening this.

Also, the accommodation costs. As I have mentioned time and time again, the tax on hotel accommodation is a consumer tax and tends to have a dampening affect on the use of these facilities. I would suggest to the minister that the removal of these structural consumer barriers might encourage tourism in general. Another area to look at is the elimination of meal taxes. He may wish to respond on that. I think I'll summarize at this point and then go into a few questions.

In summary, the tourism industry has a great potential, a potential for unprecedented growth. I think it could become possibly a major industry at some time in the future. That's no reflection on.... I guess maybe it is a reflection on the state of our forestry industry, but certainly we've got an area of great growth here in the province, one we can take advantage of if we have the commitment, the resources and the funds to do the proper job.

Going to some specific questions, I wonder if the minister would outline what steps he has taken to achieve a higher level of professionalism throughout the tourism industry, specifically in the three areas of tourism resource development, market identification and advertising. He has mentioned that he's moved somewhat in that direction, but I'd be interested to hear exactly where his plans are to increase the professionalism in resource development, and to identify these different areas and the markets. In addition, I wonder if the minister would advise on whether he has any plans to coordinate the promotion of our major travel generators, along with the federal government and, as he has mentioned before, the different regions. He hasn't mentioned any coordination between the provincial and federal bodies in terms of an overall marketing strategy.

Perhaps I'll sit down at this point. The minister might want to respond on those.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Before I go any further, Mr. Chairman, I was remiss earlier in not introducing — not only to the member but to the House — my new deputy minister as of a year ago, Mr. Michael Horsey.

Just a couple of comments on the member's opening statement. I appreciate a lot of his remarks. I think he realizes that we're moving in the right direction in a lot of our strategies in tourism. As I say, we've had Mr. Horsey on board now for about a year. He is a marketing person, right out of the private sector, and has had a good deal of experience in marketing, advertising and research, as I outlined in my opening statement.

I would like to comment on the member's statement about the government's apparent lack of commitment to tourism. I disagree with his statement. Just by looking at the size of the budget committed to tourism in this province, I think you will see that this government has a very strong commitment to tourism. The member mentioned the government's advertising budget. I would ask him to bear in mind that if he's referring to the GIS budget, about one-half of that — $9 million — is tourism marketing dollars. It just happens not to appear in my votes but in one of the votes of the Provincial Secretary. I'd also ask him to bear in mind that we spend far more dollars promoting tourism than most other jurisdictions

[ Page 6704 ]

in North America, Ontario being an exception; but then their population base is several times what ours is.

I would also ask him to bear in mind that a good deal of the marketing for tourism is done by the private sector. Many millions of dollars are spent by private corporations promoting this area. This is not to say that Tourism shouldn't do its share of the load, and I feel that we do. One of our main functions is to make sure that every area of the province is promoted as equally as possible so that the motels in the interior that he speaks of which have had a couple of rough years can get their share of this promotional budget.

He is correct when he says there has been a decline in North American tourism. This is a phenomenon that many people in this industry, including our own federal government and the private sector in Canada and the United States, are addressing at this moment. North America as a whole is not getting its share of the increase in world tourism. It's interesting to note that even in the very depths of the worldwide recession that hit most countries, tourism internationally was still growing at between 3 and 4 percent a year, but in North America was not. So you are correct when you say North America's share of the market is declining. It's something that is of concern to everyone in the industry in North America.

There has always been a negative cash-flow position vis-a-vis inbound and outbound tourists in British Columbia. British Columbians have always traveled abroad more, and spent more money, than people coming to British Columbia. We are naturally trying to correct that imbalance. It has always been there. I suppose it comes from British Columbians chasing the sun in the wintertime. It's very difficult to cope with that, and I don't know if we'll ever reverse that trend. Hopefully, though — and I think encouragingly — more and more British Columbians are staying home and skiing in the winter. With recent success stories such as Whistler, we hope to keep that trend going.

You mentioned, Mr. Member, the moose, Mounties and mountains aspect. You mentioned that also when you were in my riding a couple or three weeks ago. Let me tell you....

Interjection.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Well, I guess we both got a little bit of press on that one. If we're talking out of context, the kindest thing that I could say about that comment is that it's out of date. It's maybe not out of context, but it is out of date. With all due respect, the moose-mountains-Mounties image.... The research we have done by very up-to-date research techniques tells us that the Americans don't view us that way anymore. There are some, probably, who do. But for the most part they do not. They are quite knowledgeable about British Columbia. Many of them have been here many times.

We are constantly upgrading our inventory of resources. We haven't published a piece on it since 1979, and we will do, either this coming year or in 1987.

As far as the research that we have done, certainly you may have it. You are welcome to it. I have made this commitment to the whole industry. When we do this research, it's not to keep it secret. It's available to anyone who wants a summary of it. If you want the entire thing, or if people in the industry want the entire research, we might have to charge them a nominal amount for photocopying. But summaries of the research are available to certainly any British Columbian who wants it within reason, and I'll be glad to provide you with a copy of it.

You mentioned the gas, meal and room taxes. Yes, they concern me as well. Nobody likes to put taxes on our accommodation sector, but during a period of declining revenues such as we were in in 1982, 1983 and certainly 1984, governments — not only ours, but governments everywhere — were looking for every possible source of revenue. We don't do these things lightly, and we do a lot of research into them before we impose any taxes. We make sure that we are in line with the industry throughout North America and the rest of the world. Although they are distasteful to you and to me and to many in the industry, unfortunately they are necessary. We still have to generate the dollars.

So we find that yes, our gasoline is highly priced and highly taxed. It is still not nearly as highly priced or as highly taxed as in other areas of the world. I would point to Europe specifically there, when you look at the gasoline prices, and yet it doesn't seem to deter anyone from driving. When I look at the meal taxes as compared with the rest of the world, ours are not out of line. In fact, they're not even out of line with the rest of Canada, nor are our room taxes. So while I say they are distasteful to all of us, they are a necessary evil at the moment.

You speak of a higher level of professionalism. We are indeed endeavouring to do that, not just within our ministry but within the whole industry. We have started with a complete overhaul of the ministry and our directions and the thrust of what we do. I point to some of the people that we now have on board in our ministry. I thank you for the compliments on some of our efforts. We're just starting. As they say, you ain't seen nothin' yet.

Our travel planner is very well received. It's a first for us, and for a first effort, I am very pleased with it. So is the industry. You will see much more along that line. Professionalism in the trade concerns us because our research tells us that the Americans in particular love to come here. They like our country, and they like the people. They think we're very friendly. One of the comments they make, however, is that we could be more professional in our attitude and in our service to the travelling public. So we realize that, and we are trying to upgrade the professionalism in the industry through programs such as Superhost.

The last question which you asked I will address briefly: cooperation with the federal government is better now than it has ever been in the past. I have had three meetings now with the federal minister, Hon. Tom McMillan. The federal government, for the first time since I've been the minister, is truly interested in cooperating with us, trading information and making sure as far as possible that we are not overlapping dollars and wasting dollars.

We are interested in getting the very best bang for the buck possible. We're doing that by a free exchange of information, not only at the ministerial level, but at the deputy and marketing levels. So I think that answers most of what you had and your two questions. I'll sit down and let you continue.

[3:30]

MR. MacWILLIAM: Mr. Chairman, a number of questions in terms of inventory identification. I guess maybe we should make sure we're singing off the same song sheet when we talk about inventory identification. What I am meaning basically is the natural amenities, the parks, the mountains,

[ Page 6705 ]

etc., as well as historical sites and cultural aspects. I wonder if the minister could outline what specific programs of inventory identification are presently in the field in tourism development. Secondly, I wonder if the minister could answer if these programs are developed in liaison with other ministries such as Environment and Lands, Parks and Housing, and in terms of sports and recreation. Is there a coordinated approach to identifying these tourism generators?

Thirdly, what steps has the minister taken to ensure that the critical travel generators such as our park system and our wilderness areas are being adequately maintained to facilitate the use and demand from our tourists? I've had a lot of people mention the lack of adequate maintenance of our present park system, possibly as a result of the process of privatizing or contracting these out, whereas the government used to take care of the job itself. I wonder if the minister would answer that question.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

Also, has the minister established a process of inventory identification for selected cultural or heritage sites? In particular, by way of example, the O'Keefe ranch has been identified. The minister probably remembers the O'Keefe ranch; it's just north of the city of Vernon. Other areas such as the Iblameen Valley, the village of Coalmont, which has a lot of history involved.... What's going on in terms of identifying these areas and expending funds in order to develop them? Many of these areas are decadent. A tourist wouldn't want to go in there and see just the dilapidated buildings and what not that are left, but there is a real potential there to generate a tourism attraction through upgrading and developing these heritage sites. Let's see if I've got any more on that one.

The last question in that regard is.... I wonder if the ministry has developed a regional profile, or a regional priorization, if you like, of potential travel generators that are in need of development, and whether there is any program for addressing this need. Again let me cite a particular area in the North Okanagan: Kal Lake park, even though it does come under Lands, Parks and Housing, is sitting there fallow after being purchased over ten years ago as a class A provincial park. We've got a real potential there in the Okanagan for a tourist generator if we develop the park. It won't take much, in terms of expenditures. I guess those expenditures would perhaps have to go through another ministry, but I wonder if the minister has any programs liaising with these other ministries to ensure that these are put on a priority list.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Inventory identification. We are working constantly with Lands, Parks and Housing, with the Municipal Affairs ministry, with Environment, and the development side of my ministry has identified over the last — I hate to put a time limit — few years over 50 projects from the TIDSA program that address many of the things you were mentioning, such as historical sites, museums, etc. We're constantly working with other ministries. For instance, even in the mapping of the province we're now working very closely with Lands, Parks and Housing so that we don't duplicate efforts and expense.

You touched on another: park maintenance, of course, which we're very concerned with. It does not come under my ministry. That again is either Lands, Parks and Housing, or in some cases the Ministry of Forests, in the forestry campsites.

The member should know that many other ministries impact on the Ministry of Tourism, and that when people are satisfied or dissatisfied with a park, a highway, logging or the environment, etc. It is we who get the letters. Much of the time it's not in our purview or jurisdiction, but all the other ministries, it seems, impact on Tourism.

There is a need for us to work very closely with other ministries, and we do. I work as closely as I possibly can with my colleagues in cabinet to see that tourism is enhanced and not impeded, and also to take a look at possible developments, as you have asked — the need for development in certain areas. A good example of that is the new Coquihalla Highway, which opens up a whole new area of the province in which we, in conjunction with Highways, Lands and Environment, are looking at possible new sites for tourism destinations or tourism development. So I guess I can sum it all up by saying, yes, we do work very closely with other ministries.

Another good example is that I work very closely with the Minister of Environment (Hon. Mr. Pelton) regarding the restocking of lakes in the interior especially, which is of vital concern to our tourism industry in the interior. We stay in close touch on that.

There's not much else I can say except to answer your question in the broadest terms by saying that we do work very closely with other ministries.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I have a question in terms of funding by way of grants or loans for specific projects. I guess this would possibly come under the tourism incentive program as part of the ERDA agreement. It's my understanding that it's about $25 million repayable over the next five years. To break that down, that's about $5 million per year divided over nine regions — about $600,000 a year per region. It doesn't seem to be quite as pretty a package when you break it down region by region. There's not a great financial commitment, but there is one there.

I would like to ask the minister if he can expand, by way of explanation, because it isn't terribly clear to me which projects can qualify for funding under that agreement. I'm thinking specifically of a problem that came up in the past, and again I refer the minister to O'Keefe ranch in the Okanagan, which has been funded by both the city of Vernon and the government. They are in danger of closing as a result of lack of government funding in order to run the ranch. Would they be able to qualify under this ERDA agreement? Would the development of wilderness trails or other heritage sites qualify under this agreement? And just to put it on public record, could the minister explain the process of application through this ERDA program so that I can relay that information to those interested.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: At this time, Mr. Chairman, I can't really outline all the details, because the agreement hasn't been signed yet. We've signed the umbrella ERDA agreement....

Interjection.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Yes, we will be signing the tourism subagreement probably within the next 30 days. We've got all the t's crossed and the i's dotted, etc., and we have reached an agreement with the feds. I can tell the member that his overall number is not quite correct, but he's

[ Page 6706 ]

pretty close, in the ballpark between $25 million and $30 million. All the parameters and guidelines will be set out at the time it is signed. It will, of course, be administered by a joint federal-provincial committee. Probably within the next 30 days we'll be announcing it and all of the guidelines and the breakdown of the dollars — what they are committed for. It's not all to one area. There are three different areas in the agreement. That will all be released at the time it's signed.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I guess the minister has explained why I haven't been able to find specifics. I have been asked that question by various groups, and I haven't been able to give them an appropriate answer. I assume, then, that the specific details will be forthcoming shortly.

If I could move on now to an issue that we both touched on briefly a little bit earlier, in regard to training programs in the tourism area, it seems that at the moment tourist-related training or education programs and professional development programs are fairly limited in this province. Fewer than one in five workers have received any formal training from a school or institution in the skills that they must acquire in the service industry that is associated with tourism. Only one in three get any formal training on the job specifically. The observation here is that there really is no point in attempting to create world-class attractions throughout the province if we don't also supply top-calibre people to manage the resources and the services.

It's a complaint that I've heard time and time again. I've even noticed it in travelling through different parts of the world and then coming back to British Columbia. The service you get is often pretty chippy in comparison with what is offered elsewhere. It's possibly a result of the inexperience of the individuals involved and certainly the lack of adequate training programs. The challenge we face is to give education and training programs a top priority in this overall process of tourism development.

I'll give you an example. There are doctoral programs in travel and tourism now available throughout the United States. I don't believe — I may be wrong, and the minister may want to clarify it — that these opportunities are available here in British Columbia, nor do I think they are made available throughout Canada. He may want to reflect on that. Hundreds of U.S. Institutions offer courses in travel and tourism-related subjects. We don't have many institutions with credentials in tourism. What programs there are — for example, the tourism-related program of BCIT — seem to be in danger of being cut.

Here are some specific questions. What steps has the minister taken to rectify this situation, the situation being the lack of adequate training programs? Second, is the minister liaising with colleges and post-secondary institutes regarding the possibility of implementing diploma or degree programs in tourism? Third, what steps has the minister taken to institute apprenticeship training programs in the tourism industry? He talked about very short courses. They have their place and value, but I think that maybe we ought to be looking at something with a little more depth than just an eight-hour course. Fourth, what steps has the minister taken to initiate cost-sharing programs for employment in the tourism industry, such as career training programs in tourism? I've probably hit you with enough, so I'll sit down and let you answer those.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I'll try to answer as specifically as I can the member's questions regarding training programs. As I said, our research has shown us that in many instances — and again, you can't generalize and paint with a broad brush here — he is correct when he says the level of service sometimes leaves something to be desired. Our customers tell us that. Then you run into exactly the opposite many times, where people write to me and others telling of the tremendous service they have received somewhere.

On training programs, the Superhost program is, of course, not designed to be a be-all and end-all in hospitality courses. It is the first level of training, and, granted, it doesn't last very long — about eight hours — but it is a start. Second, my ministry conducts hospitality courses that are somewhat longer and go for five days. So we have the second level of entry into a hospitality course — from the Superhost course of eight hours to the hospitality course of five days. Then, of course, there are courses offered at many of the regional colleges and technical institutes which are one or two years in length. I think specifically of BCIT, which has a course. I know Malaspina College has an excellent course, a chef's course. I should add here that they did very well this year in the international, I guess you could call them, cuisine Olympics in Germany, walking off with several first places. Then, of course, there is also a very well-respected course at Simon Fraser University. So the tourism training programs are there, and they are growing.

[3:45]

MR. MacWILLIAM: They're not degree-granting programs.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: No, you are correct, we do not have degree-granting programs. But the courses are there for people to take — anything from eight hours up to two years. I think the one at Simon Fraser, if I'm not mistaken, is two years, but I could be wrong about that. It doesn't offer a degree. Let me speculate, though. I feel very sincerely that as the importance of the service/hospitality/travel industry grows in this province, so will the opportunities for courses. I would think that as the focus shifts — and it is shifting somewhat — off our primary resource industries onto the service sector, institutes of learning will pick up the need for such courses, as you say. It wouldn't surprise me if within the next year or two, or maybe three or four, we have degree-granting courses at some of the universities. The tourism/ hospitality/travel industry — call it what you like — is going to become increasingly important in our province, and someday in the not too distant future it will probably end up being our number one industry. As we shift that focus in this province, I am very positive that you will see these courses expand, and expand to the point where they are in some other areas of the world.

MR. MacWILLIAM: As highlighted in the recently announced Partners in Tourism program, it is the ministry's intention to allow each region to formulate a tourism marketing plan for its area. The plan obviously is to include target groups as well as promotional strategies. I wonder what assurances your ministry has sought from the different regional associations, under this Partners in Tourism concept,

[ Page 6707 ]

to ensure an adequate degree of professionalism in the development of these plans from the different regional associations in order to ensure that the information that is coming to you is accurate and does the job that you're asking it to do.

Accurate marketing, as the minister knows, is a statistical process involving research. What facilities have been made available to these regions in order to accommodate this task? Has the ministry considered providing the necessary marketing expertise to these regional associations in helping them to develop these regional profiles? Perhaps the minister can address those few points.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Sure, Mr. Chairman, that's an easy one. On the Partners in Tourism program, we introduced it for the very reasons the member is talking about: so that we could literally force the regions and the regional coordinators to come back to us with a plan on how they're going to spend the money that they get from us.

We have hired a consultant to work with them and to analyze their programs. Their marketing plans are gone through thoroughly not only by the consultant but by the deputy and assistant deputy minister of marketing in my ministry. All regions, by the way, have completed their plans now. We are very pleased and surprised by a lot of them. The level of competence is very high — some better than others, naturally, and some that we had to do an extensive amount of work with to get them where we wanted them. But we have provided the expertise that you ask about from this consultant and through the marketing experts in the ministry.

As for research, as I said before, any research that we do is available to them and some of them have done considerable research on their own. So all the research that I talked about that we have been doing lately in our core area market is made available to them.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Just moving on to some general questions in terms of tourism, the minister and I both agree that tourism promotion, at least today, requires a far more focused effect, with the approach to rely heavily on regional input — I don't think there has been any argument there — in assessment of the travel generators, marketing strategies and the areas potential.

It seems that the tourism council in British Columbia has to play a fairly significant role in this, along with the regional associations. I wonder if the minister would explain the exact nature of the B.C. tourism council, as well as its composition, the level of expertise in that council and also the mechanism through which the central council integrates its activities with the regional associations.

With respect to the Partners in Tourism program, he mentioned that the plans are submitted, but has the minister formed a review committee to review the submissions from the different regional associations?

I have some other questions on that, but I'll sit down at this point and let him answer those other ones.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: To answer the second question first, Mr. Chairman, the review is done initially by the outside consultant that we've hired, and then it's done by the two senior people, the deputy and assistant deputy of marketing in my ministry, and, of course, by the regions themselves. It will be quite evident to any of the people involved, because we are in such close contact with them, whether the plan is being followed. So an ongoing review, I suppose you could say, is being done on a continuing basis. We're in touch with them on a constant basis.

As for PTAC, as we call it, the Provincial Tourist Advisory Council, it was set up some years ago. I revamped it a couple of years ago and made it a little bit smaller and a little more efficient, I think. But it does represent every sector of the travel industry. All of the associations are represented, such as hotels, restaurants, motels, parks, trailer courts, B.C. Ferries, every region has their president on the PTAC, an airline representative is on it, and I could go on and on.

Every facet of the travel hospitality industry is represented on PTAC. It has some 25 members, give or take a few. I can't give you the exact number, but about 25 members. We meet twice a year. We just had the last meeting about a month and a half ago, and had good input back and forth about what the industry sees and expects and the same from myself: what we see as being needed. It's an exchange of ideas and an exchange of research, statistics, whatever. So PTAC, as far as I am concerned, is a very important part of the ministry, and it is functioning very well.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Going back again to the Partners in Tourism program that we've been discussing, I was asking whether or not a review committee has been established to evaluate the submissions from the regional associations. If a committee has been established, I'd like to ask if the minister has at this point drafted guidelines in terms of submission criteria for the committee to follow.

Secondly, what about the limits of funding for regional advertising built into the program? Can the minister expand on how much funding is available on a regional basis?

In terms of the ministry's responsibility to handle the advertising after the program is established, will the minister be tendering contracts, or at least opening competition for contracts, to handle the advertising, or will it be handled by the firm that is presently doing much of the ministry's work?

There is another question that bothers me about the advertising. This isn't directly related here, but I'll tag it on. Why has the advertising budget for the Ministry of Tourism been moved over to the Provincial Secretary? It seems that as part of your tourism development strategy, advertising is an essential component and should be under the Ministry of Tourism's control rather than under government information services, which is also responsible for many other aspects, including some of the polling research and what not that is done. I would hope that that advertising budget is not being compromised in terms of political polling. It seems that it would be more appropriate to have it directly under the control of the ministry itself.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: As far as the review committee goes, that committee is really made up of my deputy and assistant deputy and those directors of marketing in my ministry. We do totally control the Partners in Tourism program, of course, by the release of funds.

The member asked about advertising. We have authorized $1.6 million in the partners program. That's our share of it. It's a fifty-fifty partnership deal, where the region puts up 50 percent and we put up 50 percent. So it's a total of $3.2 million, and there's more to come. The program has taken off like wildfire — beyond our expectations — and this year will probably be oversubscribed.

[ Page 6708 ]

The answer to your other question is that the regions select their own advertising firms. We have the signing authority to allocate those dollars to them, but they make their own decision as to who they spend it with in the form of an advertising agency.

On the other question about government information services, even though the dollars for all government marketing are in the one vote under the Provincial Secretary, the Ministry of Tourism still allocates those dollars. It is earmarked specifically for tourism marketing, and we have the say on where it is spent, even though it does come out of the other vote.

MR. MacWILLIAM: There is a particular concern that was brought to my attention some time ago with regard to bed-and-breakfast facilities, particularly in the greater Vancouver area, as expectations build, I guess, for the large number of visitors that should be coming to British Columbia during Expo 86. There seems to be a rapidly growing number of bed-and-breakfast facilities crowding the market.

The situation seems to be more acute in the Vancouver area. In case the minister hasn't seen this, there is in fact a $10,000 bed-and-breakfast franchise that was recently being offered, with the lower mainland being divided into about 28 operational units. It was reported that the estimated gross income will approach $19 million. It promises to carve out a lot of revenue from established businesses that are now highly regulated and pay a significant number of operational taxes, including the accommodation tax we were discussing earlier.

Representatives from the B.C. Motels, Resorts and Trailer Parks Association made a submission to the minister, I believe, as well as to other ministries, with a copy also to me. They have urged the government to recognize that the bed-and-breakfast places are really legitimate businesses and that perhaps we should look at subjecting them to the same codes and regulations and, of course, the same taxation policies that other businesses face.

[4:00]

You know, when we get into a franchise operation, it's not nickel-and-dime stuff any more. It's not little Granny down the street offering her upstairs suite to a passerby in the night because it happens to be available. It looks like it has the potential of being big business. Although we don't want to come down with a heavy hand, I think we should at least ensure that the businesses that do bear the burden of tax structures and business costs they get a fair break, that they are not being unduly regulated while another sector of the market goes free. I think that's the real concern here. What has the minister done to address these legitimate concerns? I wonder if he has discussed it with the minister of Municipal Affairs (Hon. Mr. Ritchie) ? Does the minister realize that presently there seems to be no standardization of regulations with these facilities?

I might point out that I did a little research in this a while back, and Vancouver, which has now passed regulations in expectation of a problem here, will allow no more than two bedrooms to a maximum of four guests. It must be licensed, and it is subjected to a one-time inspection. In Burnaby, however, no licence is needed for up to two bedrooms. It allows two lodgers per unit and inspection only for the licensed users. In the city of Vernon there is no inspection needed for up to two bedrooms, and no limitation on the number of guests. Areas such as the North Okanagan Regional District have adopted no regulations whatsoever; it's totally open.

What I'm trying to point out here is that we have a real scattergun approach. I wonder if the minister has suggested or provided any directions in terms of standardization of licensing with respect to health and safety concerns and the taxation aspect of it.

MR. DAVIS: I'll be brief, My comments focus totally on Canada Place. Our new highways certainly are going to be a great attraction for tourists, but another asset which will shortly be available is the convention centre at Canada Harbour Place. I'd like to ask the minister what the terms of reference are for what I'll call the Peter Hyndman study or negotiation.

As I understand it, most convention centres across Canada have been financed jointly by municipalities and provincial governments, often with a large private sector contribution. It's rare that the federal government has made a heavy investment in convention centres. The province has been wise, and certainly fortunate, to negotiate an arrangement whereby the federal government, as part of Canada Harbour Place, is now in the process of completing a facility that can accommodate as many as 5,000 guests — seating and dining capacity and so on — in what initially will be the Canada exhibit for Expo 86, but will ultimately be a fantastic facility. Were it separate, were it to be built from scratch solely for that purpose, it would be of the order of a $100 million investment. I assume that the federal government wants to be clear of this investment after Expo 86 is over; that, in effect, it is donating it to whoever will manage it. It is a unique facility, but with some maintenance costs. I gather that the city is prepared to put up some money, but not prepared to shoulder all the costs of operating this large, unique facility, admirably located on our waterfront.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

The city argues, I think rightly, that this facility will bring business not just to the city of Vancouver but to other municipalities and other areas of the province, and that the hotel room tax, which is a provincial levy, should in some measure help to carry this facility, and the meal tax, even the gasoline tax, which is collected provincially, should help in some way to defray the ongoing costs of this facility. As I understand it, it'll be a dual responsibility if the federal government simply donates the facility to some entity to operate, and that the province and city of Vancouver will have some joint responsibilities.

As I said initially, it's a great opportunity. I assume that the Minister of Tourism is involved in the current negotiations. Any comments that he might make on the current state of affairs vis-à-vis Ottawa or the city hall of Vancouver would certainly be appreciated, and if he could let us know the terms of reference, deadline, whatever, in the Peter Hyndman contribution, that too would be appreciated.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I'll respond and thank the member for his comments and his question. I am not at liberty at this time to give you a timetable or deadline on when and if such an agreement will be reached, except to say that the Premier has made it very clear that he is willing to sit down, and will be sitting down, with the federal government

[ Page 6709 ]

to work out a satisfactory arrangement regarding the management of the convention centre at the conclusion of Expo 86.

The member is quite right when he says it is an unusual situation that the federal government owns the facility — and they do. I should maybe refresh everyone's memory that when this deal was made with the federal government it was in concert with the provincial government vis-à-vis Expo; that this would be their contribution. They would build that facility, which would become a convention centre and cruise ship facility, and the provincial government would put on the world's fair — which is also a bit of an unusual arrangement as far as world's fairs go, because it is always the host nation that really hosts the world's fair. But in this case the provincial government is putting it on, if you like, under the auspices of the federal government, so we have some unique financial arrangements here.

I'm sure that Mr. Hyndman's terms of reference are to seek out some sort of common ground with reference to the cost-sharing and possibilities where the federal government, the province, certainly the city of Vancouver and the private sector can sit down and come to an equitable arrangement. I can assure you that that will be done, but I cannot give you a deadline. I wish I could at this moment, but I can't. Suffice it to say that we're working towards that end as quickly as possible, and I'm sure that Mr. Hyndman will be reporting back to the government with all due haste.

To answer the questions regarding bed and breakfast that the member for Okanagan North put, bed and breakfast in this country and in this province especially is a recent phenomenon. It's very commonplace in the United Kingdom and in parts of Europe, and it's being hastened, without any question, because of Expo 86 and the need for every bit of accommodation that we can muster for next year. But I also hasten to point out that it is regulated by the Municipal Act, in the case of all the cities of the province except for Vancouver, which doesn't come under the Municipal Act. I realize that Vancouver has made regulations regarding bed and breakfast that conform, I think, fairly closely to what is in the Municipal Act. It may not be exactly the same, but it's very close. Just off the top of my head, I think the Municipal Act says it's a maximum of two rooms in any house, and that's about it.

It is up to every municipality how they handle bed and breakfast. You are quite right when you say it's different all over the province. Well, I think that's probably the way it should be; that reflects the atmosphere, if you like, and the lifestyle of a community. There is one community in the province that doesn't allow bed and breakfast, period, and that's their prerogative. The community is Kelowna, by the way. It does not allow bed and breakfast, at least to the best of my knowledge; that's the way it was six months ago. They have made a decision not to allow it at all. So I think that that's the way it should remain: under the jurisdiction of each municipality, to reflect the thinking of their council.

You mentioned franchises. Yes, there are several bed-and-breakfast groups — or, if you want, franchises — now operating within the province. I know that the reservation system that we franchised last year called ResWest is putting bed and breakfast into the reservation system, but only in associations. They're not going to try to list every room that's available under bed and breakfast. They're listing it by association, and then that association in turn can hand out the reservations to whomever, probably in a rotation order. That's really where bed and breakfast is at: it's really a function of the municipality.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I do realize it is a function of the municipality. However, I think, in terms of setting at least minimal criteria for health and safety standards, that perhaps the government should have a look at at least drafting core standards. I think what the industry is concerned about are the inequities in terms of taxation: the fact that these bed and breakfasts, even though they may be a franchise operation, really can skirt around the 7 percent hotel room tax, which is an operational cost for the established businesses. There seems to be some inequity there. I wonder what the minister's position is in terms of the implementation of this tax also on the bed and breakfasts. I point out that this is a recommendation. I simply bring this concern to the minister from the industry itself; they're concerned about this, about the inequity there.

There's another concern, however, in regard to these large-scale operations: the fact that bed-and-breakfast registries and reservation services are accepting advance bookings, and obviously accepting large sums of money on deposit from those bookings. I wonder if the minister can outline whether or not he has investigated the possibility of these bed-and-breakfast registries registering with the registrar of travel agents, to ensure that there's some protection for those consumers who are putting their deposits on hand with these agencies. Again, I point out that the minister has been in receipt of these very recommendations that I've brought to him on behalf of the hotel, motel and trailer courts association. I would ask the minister whether he's taken the opportunity to act upon any of these recommendations.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: On the health and safety aspect of the bed and breakfasts, that again is the purview of the municipality. It's up to each municipality how they want to treat bed and breakfast, how stringent they want to be in their regulations and inspections, and as far as I'm concerned it can stay there.

On the taxation aspect, yes, even then, as far as business licences go and that form of taxation, that again is a function of the municipality. Advance bookings and pre-registering: I don't foresee us putting these people under the Travel Agents Act, which again is not in my ministry; it comes under Consumer and Corporate Affairs. But I would say that they have to be treated the same as any hotel, accommodation, campground or whatever. Yes, my deputy has had many meetings with the B.C. motel, trailer park and campground associations. I have had several discussions with them. I understand their concerns over bed and breakfast. In one sense — and I've said this to them too — I think some of their fears are unfounded. The bed-and-breakfast phenomenon is going to peak in 1986 and then I think you will see it dwindle back down to a very low or reasonable level. For the period they're concerned about, 1986, I don't think they need concern themselves whether their own facility will be relatively full. Most accommodation, especially within a radius of about 100 miles of Expo, I think will be virtually full for the duration of Expo 86. So I really think a lot of their concerns are unfounded, certainly for next year.

[4:15]

MR. MacWILLIAM: Another concern in terms of accommodation is one that seems to be growing in the downtown area as a result of the pressure for accommodation for Expo 86. I'll read a letter that has come to my attention, or at least an extract from it. It's from a particular hotel; I don't

[ Page 6710 ]

think it need be named at this point. It anticipates significant rate hikes. It's a letter to a customer who uses the facility quite frequently:

"As you know, downtown hotels will be extremely busy during the above-mentioned time period. While we do not want to risk your valuable loyalty to our hotel, we do anticipate the rates during this six-month stretch" — involving the time period for Expo — "will increase substantially. While we are estimating a rate of $140 to $160 for the regular travelers, there will of course be a significant reduction maintained for our regular clientele."

According to the present rate structure, that jump to $140 and $160 is quite significant indeed. I know there's a lot of concern in terms of the possibility, the potential, for price-gouging in order for these businesses to rake off as much as they can from the increased tourism generated by Expo. I think a real concern here — and I'm sure the minister would agree — is that if you get stung on excessive or unfair prices, you may not go back to that area. It's just simple human nature. If you go to a restaurant and have to pay exorbitant fees for poor service, you may not go back to that restaurant. I think the same thing can happen to an area in the province, or to the province as a whole. If we pull in people from California, all the way from different parts of Europe or eastern Canada, and they get stung on accommodation costs and everything else, they may not come back. I think that's a significant danger. I'm sure the minister is aware of this. I wonder if he has taken any action to guard against the possibility of this happening.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Yes, price-gouging of any sort is a concern to us during our Expo 86 year. There's no question. This is one of the reasons we have introduced a program called Superhost, and I'll dwell on that for just a second.

When a merchant, whether he be a retailer, restaurateur or hotelier, decides to join Superhost, it's not just lip service that he's paying to it. He signs a pledge that he will give fair value for the dollar, fair exchange on foreign currency and as high a level of service as possible, to which end he pledges to enrol his staff in the Superhost training program. That's number one. If he fails to conform to the criteria laid down in the Superhost pledge, then we'll take him out of the program. It's made very clear that he will no longer have that logo on his window and be able to call himself a Superhost. We intend to market that. We intend to tell visitors to this province to look for the Superhost logo, because it's their guarantee of good value for the dollar that they're going to spend and a fair rate of exchange on their currency.

By the same token, if we can prove that any hotelier is price-gouging, he will instantly be out of the reservation system — the ResWest system. So that's two checks we have on it, plus pledges from the associations themselves that they're not interested in price-gouging. This doesn't mean that it's not going to happen. I think we all know that. There are going to be some — we hope very few — who engage in this practice. But the industry, I think, is very cognizant of the fact that they want these visitors back in '87 and '88 and '89, and they say that quite openly at all of their meetings. There seems to be a consensus in all the associations, including the B.C. Hotels Association, that this is the direction they want to go.

I should point out in defence of the hotels that they've had a pretty rough go of it the last two or three years as well. Their operating costs have continued to climb. To operate a hotel in downtown Vancouver is a very expensive proposition. Their property taxes are very high, their supplies both in alcoholic beverages and food are very high in comparison to other markets and their labour costs are very high. So they have built-in expenses that are really up there. I hasten to point out that a lot of the travelling public over the last two and a half to three years have been getting a pretty fair break from the hotels in Vancouver, because they haven't been charging anywhere near their posted rate. The rate that they were getting in 1981 was considerably higher than the rate that they got for '82, '83 and '84.

So I think the first objective of most of the hotels is to get back to their posted rate — to where it was in '81 — and then from there there may be a modest increase in the price of their rooms. I say modest; I think between 7 percent and 15 percent, hopefully around 10 percent maximum. I think if you take it from the rates they were giving during the tough years when their occupancy rates were way down up to a full rate, then yes, it will appear to be quite a bit. But again I point out that there have been some tremendous bargains in hotel room rates over the last two or three years.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Mr. Chairman, I want to move on to another area of some concern here with regard to brochures on the B.C. Ferries. There have been a number of questions regarding the tourism brochures on the ferries. These questions have been on the order paper to the Minister of Tourism for some time now, and I'll reiterate them. Firstly, did the Minister of Tourism have a contract with Vancouver Island Tourist Services Ltd. for the display of brochures on B.C. Ferries? Secondly, was the cost of this service subsidized by B.C. Tourism? If so, what was the cost? Thirdly, when did the contract for 1984 actually expire?

I've got a few more questions, but I think I'll break them up rather than to top load them all. Then we can work our way through them a little easier.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Mr. Chairman, the member is quite right. He's had that question on the order paper for some time, and I've had the answer — carrying it around — for some time, hoping to answer it in my estimates. So I would like to go on record as answering a question now that's standing in my name on the order paper. Yes, we did have a contract with Vancouver Island Tourist Services Ltd. to subsidize the display of brochures on B.C. Ferries. The answer was yes.

"When does the contract expire?" The answer is April 30, 1985. "What sums are payable under the contract for the period January 1, 1985, to April 30, 1985?" The answer is $25,000. The fourth part of the question was: "Has the ministry decided to renew the agreement? If not, why not?" The answer is no, we have not decided to renew the agreement. In fact the agreement is now totally finished, I believe. We are out of that contract and it's the end of a five-year contract. We have just decided, after taking a close look at it, that we could spend our money better elsewhere and leave the distribution of brochures on the ferries for the private sector to the private sector.

MR. MacWILLIAM: The minister has answered the next question I was going to pose, which was the sums payable for

[ Page 6711 ]

the contract between the period of January 1, 1985, and April 30, 1985. Is the minister aware that this contract has now been entered into through the B.C. Ferries? Is he aware that this contract is no longer subsidized? I might also point out that as a result of the Ministry of Tourism no longer subsidizing the contract, the cost to the clients for this service has effectively doubled. Could the minister clarify a little bit more his decision for cancellation of the subsidy? In fact the industry itself was thinking of boycotting this whole tourism brochure service as a result of the 100 percent escalation of the cost to the industry. It was quite a jump that they had to accommodate.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Well, briefly, we do provide free distribution of brochures to the entire industry in roughly 130 information centres throughout the province — and I repeat it's free of charge. We just decided that the cost of this very specialized distribution service was just too great, and we have left the decision to the entrepreneur as to whether or not he wishes to continue using what is admittedly a fairly costly service. So we just made the decision that our money could be better spent elsewhere.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I guess this brings us to the crux of the issue. It seems that the Ministry of Tourism had a five year contract up until April 1985, and that contract was renewed with B.C. Ferries as of May 1, 1985, apparently with the same firm, Vancouver Island Tourist Services. I wonder if the minister is aware, though, that while still collecting the tourism subsidy, which he has identified as being $25,000 from the period of January 1 to April 30, 1985, Vancouver Island Tourist Services was in fact charging clients on the fully unsubsidized price for those brochures on B.C. Ferries.

[Mr. Witch in the chair.]

HON. MR. RICHMOND: The answer to the last question is no, I wasn't aware of that. That's the first I've known of that aspect of it.

MR. MacWILLIAM: I'm not meaning to catch the minister by surprise, but I did attempt to bring the questions to his consideration through the questions on the order paper and was fully intending to expand on them with further questions. But not receiving an answer to the first ones, I couldn't do it until this point. I will bring to the minister's attention a brochure, which I have in my hand, of Vancouver Island Tourist Services Ltd. That brochure is dated January 15, 1985, and basically it outlines the rate structure for the period from January 1985 onward for the remainder of the year. So what this is saying then — if I can reiterate the issue — is that they are charging a full rate fee, according to this brochure, as of January 1, and yet they're still receiving the subsidy from the Minister of Tourism up until the point of April 30. So we've got a four-month overlap where apparently the industry is receiving full cost from the client receiving a $25,000 subsidy from the Minister of Tourism. I wonder if the minister would like to comment on that.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Sure. We will have our legal counsel take a look at this allegation, and I thank the member for bringing it to my attention. If indeed the firm in question was in violation of their agreement, I'm sure that our lawyer will tell us.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Yes, I think the overlap does raise some serious questions in terms of the possibility of double billing taking place. I was made aware of this by other tourist brochure services that were competing on this contract to supply tourism brochures for the ferries. They were most concerned about the increased cost and had brought these questions to my notice.

The other concern that was addressed was that, as a result of that, a number of clients had decided not to take advantage of the brochure service. So I did a little research on a recent trip from Tsawwassen on the Queen of Esquimalt; I did a tally of the percentage of tourism brochures available in the stalls being used. I would like to point out to the minister that out of the 475 stalls available, fully 37 percent were unoccupied. Now I think this is quite a drop from the usage under the subsidized program within the Ministry of Tourism, and it does indicate to me, at least, that the doubling of the cost to the client has significantly reduced the service and their abilities to use this form of advertising.

I'd also like to point out that it seems that this service is now available to other tourist areas such as tourism firms in the States that are, in fact, competing with our own tourism industry. It seems that allowing these tourist brochures on B.C. Ferries — on a Crown corporation ferry — for advertising or trying to draw tourists out of British Columbia seems to be defeating our own best interests. I wonder if the minister has any comments in that regard.

[4:30]

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Well, I have two comments. First, certainly there are probably American firms putting their brochures on our ferries the same as there are very many British Columbia firms which have their brochures on Washington State ferries.

Interjection.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Well, I think that it's available to them. If there are, as you say, over 70 percent or whatever — 60 percent of the racks on the ferries — empty, then it points out that the service is probably too expensive, which is probably one of the reasons we decided to get out of it. Number two, if that continues to be the case, maybe the operator on the ferries will sharpen his pencil and decide to be more competitive so that the private entrepreneur can put his brochures back on the ferry.

MR. MacWILLIAM: That does bring a good question to mind, because apparently, although I haven't been able to get the details of the various bids that were submitted.... They were not made available to me, but I am led to understand that a number of other contracts with a significantly lower cost structure were in fact rejected. However, that isn't part of your concern. It does reside with another ministry. I'll be taking that matter up.

But I think I want to go back and stress.... Before I do that I should correct the minister. It was 37 percent, rounding off to 40 percent, of the stalls that were unoccupied. That's a fairly significant drop in the usage of that service, which I think is really a valuable service, because in scouting around when I was on the ferry, and counting them up, a lot of people

[ Page 6712 ]

were looking at the brochures. Obviously they're getting heavy use.

The concern has been brought to me: why did the Ministry of Tourism stop the subsidy? It was a good thing. It allowed the small entrepreneur access to it, whereas now it seems that only the bigger guys are able to afford the brochures. Again, the critical issue here is the.... The big question in my mind, the question that I have not been able to resolve either through the Ministry of Tourism or the Ministry of Transportation and Highways, is the question of that overlap of the company charging a full rate structure for the four months it was still receiving a full subsidy from the Ministry of Tourism. I'd sincerely appreciate the minister having a close look at that one. I think it's long past due that we got to the bottom of this issue.

Moving on to the regional concerns, I'm going to open the floor for my colleagues to address some concerns. But before I do, with reference to the North Okanagan and tourism in that area, as the minister well knows, tourism is one of the most important components in the north Okanagan. It's a major component of the Okanagan's economic base. In 1983 about two million visitors went through the valley, with expenditures of roughly $300 million. I might point out and remind the minister that the tourism industry in that area employs about 2,800 full-time and part-time jobs, but it's been in quite a slump in the past few years. The minister has already acknowledged that.

It seems that the North Okanagan, particularly the Vernon area, has experienced a disproportionate decline in tourism revenues. It seems that — I'm citing material from a report that has been commissioned by north Okanagan Commerce Inc. on tourism — the north Okanagan has been slow to act in developing appropriate facilities for tourism and adequately marketing them. Climate and physical geography are principal travel generators in the area. Of course, the lakes and the water-based recreation are a high priority. In addition, I might point out that evidence indicates that the visitors who are coming into that area today are increasingly inclined to — oh, how can we say it? — natural experiences: backpacking, nature walks, biking and stuff like that; outdoor health and recreation activities.

This is where the report makes a particular concern. It addresses the fact that the north Okanagan area in general is lagging very far behind other areas in the Okanagan Valley in terms of its tourist development. It's felt that this results from a failure to provide access and develop the real potential for that area. I'm talking about access to the lakes, adequate marina facilities, adequate campground facilities, adequate stopover facilities for vehicle traffic, and recreational areas, as well as the development of historical and cultural aspects of the valley.

I mentioned the O'Keefe ranch before to the minister. We've discussed that before, so I think I'll go over that point. But I'd like to ask the minister if he's taken any action in terms of the proposed development of Kalamalka Lake park. I'm sure he's aware of it. What is his position on that park? Does he has any particular priority in terms of the development of that facility?

Again, coming back to specific funding allocations for the development of tourism resource things such as bike paths, cross country trails, marina facilities.... Being specific, would these funds qualify? I know that that final ERDA agreement hasn't been brought down, but to take this back, would activities such as this qualify for funding under that agreement? I wonder if the minister can enlighten me on that aspect. I'll sit down now and let him answer the questions. I think I'm pretty well finished.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Mr. Chairman, as far as the Okanagan Lake park goes, no, I haven't interceded directly with the Ministry of Lands, Parks and Housing. I have discussed it, as I have discussed it with some community leaders in Vernon. But that's as far as it has gone. I really don't have any intention of getting involved in, I guess, interceding with the minister regarding parks around the province. Suffice it to let people in those communities make their wants and wishes known to that minister. If I can assist, I will, but I don't intend to make it a cause of mind.

As far as funding for some of the activities mentioned is concerned, I guess we would have to take a look at every individual application and judge it on its own merits. So rather than try to say yes or no to these bicycle paths and whatever else would qualify, we'll have a look at each individual application as it comes to us. We will measure them against the criteria of the ERDA agreement and make a decision on each individual case.

MR. MacWILLIAM: My colleague is still getting his material together, so while he is doing that.... Actually, the minister did bring up one more question. He mentioned earlier that he was liaising with other ministers, such as the Minister of Environment (Hon. Mr. Pelton) and the Minister of Lands, Parks and Housing (Hon. Mr. Brummet), in terms of developing a coordinated approach to resource inventory identification. He admitted as much in his earlier address. Now he is telling me that he has no intention of stepping into areas such as the development of Kalamalka Lake Park. Now this is, I think the minister would agree, a critical inventory, if we want to put it in those terms. The minister has said that he will liaise with the other ministries. Why the hesitation to move on this, which is of great concern to the north Okanagan community and the small business community? The chamber of commerce has been pushing for it for some time. Surely the minister is aware of that. I'm sure that in the interests of developing tourism in the area he would be most pleased to press the issue on behalf of the local community.

Moving on to an item that I had inadvertently neglected — and this goes back to marketing — an idea came to me, and I proposed it to the minister as a possibility that perhaps no one has considered. I think it's a kind of neat idea. Perhaps they have considered it. As we well know, there is a large and rapidly growing industry in video cassette recorders. I think this opens up a whole market, in terms of a new marketing or promotional strategy, involving video rentals and video rental outlets. This fellow that came to me is actually part of a professional video service. He suggested we put together regional promotional packages on videotape, outlining the natural advantages of the different tourism areas of British Columbia, and market these videotapes, perhaps by distributing them free of charge to specific target markets. They could make them available free of charge as a promotion to people renting videotapes, or through some pilot project.

I think the concept is certainly worth looking at. The market is very large out there. I know that in helping to open a travel firm in north Okanagan they're using videotapes of various areas. I think there was one being played, when I was there, of a certain area in Mexico that they were promoting on this videotape. So a person could, for example, come into a

[ Page 6713 ]

travel agency and say: "What have you got on British Columbia? I've heard about the place." They could slip a videotape into the machine and have a firsthand look. It's just a suggestion I offer to the minister. They might want to consider this as a good route to take.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: First of all, just let me clarify my stand vis-à-vis the park. I don't wish to leave a false impression with the member. I just mean to say to him that, yes, we are liaising regarding inventories of parks and heritage sites and everything. But I don't intend to take up a cause for every community that wants a park, and put pressure on my colleague to develop a park. He is under some pretty stringent budgetary constraints himself, but I'm sure he is very much aware of the wants and needs of the people in north Okanagan vis-à-vis their park.

As for the videotapes, I thank the member for his suggestion, but it is one that we have looked at many times, and we have several proposals that we're now considering. I should add that we are even taking a look at transferring some of the excellent films we have in the ministry to videotape for easier accessibility and use in travel agencies, etc. We are even taking a look at putting videotape displays of our own in various places throughout the province. Without getting anyone's hopes up and saying we're going to do this or that, we are even taking a look at whether we can afford to put videotape displays on B.C. Ferries so that people travelling on the ferries can take.... Maybe the new info systems — you push a button for the area in the province you want to look at...... We feel that if it's economically feasible and we can do it, we will take a look at it. There are two or three videotape scheme proposals such as you suggest in the Partners in Tourism program. We're taking a look at those to see if they're feasible and if we have the money to do them.

So again, sometimes it comes down to a question of dollars. Some programs look very attractive and very enticing. I agree with him; it's a good idea. But we also have to look at the dollars.

MR. R. FRASER: I want to say something really positive about this great Ministry of Tourism that brings people to the wonderful province of British Columbia, puts them on the boats and takes them back and forth. Then they show them brochures from Seattle and Vancouver, and we trade tourists just like we trade goods and products. It makes sense to me. I like to see the minister giving people an opportunity to do something for themselves by saying: "Here are your tourists. We're going to deliver them to you. What are you going to do for them to make them spend their money and feel happy?" I think it's a nice way to feel.

I want the people to feel that we are in a positive mood here; that we're making things happen here. It's not the downtrodden, poor little guy — what's the guy with a knapsack going to do because we haven't built a dock on some lake somewhere? For heaven's sake, people want these lakes preserved. They don't want docks and highways paved to the water's edge, for crying out loud. These little members from Victoria don't know anything about the hinterland, but I do because I've been there.

Interjection.

MR. R. FRASER: Yes, I've been there, Mr. Member. Do I need protection from the Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ask and you shall receive, hon. member.

[4:45]

MR. R. FRASER: It's a great day we've got here. Look at this beautiful weather and the lovely flowers in this great city, and every citizen making a contribution — planting a garden, making the cities all over the province look great. Isn't it terrific? My gosh, I think you should feel great, Mr. Minister, for the work you're doing: the beautiful train, the Royal Hudson, together with the ferry, the Britannia — making it work. Then there's the lovely village of Chemainus that we went to see. It's working with their thought and their own imagination — getting their heads around something good and making the tourists want to come here again. That's what we want to talk about, Mr. Chairman. Now go ahead.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'm unsure whether or not this minister has responsibility for the weather.

MR. BLENCOE: I'm wondering if that member could repeat what he just said. I doubt if he could. Was that your maiden speech?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The second member for Victoria on vote 65.

Interjection.

MR. BLENCOE: The Victoria representative represented well over 60 percent of his riding in the last election — come on now, fair's fair — and it's growing every day.

It's a great pleasure....

Interjections.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. BLENCOE: Mr. Chairman, please notice that it's all those mainland people over there who are making all the noise. We proud Islanders from the city of Victoria are trying to talk about the most beautiful city in the province of British Columbia, the city of Victoria. It is with great pride that I stand up to talk about tourism in the city of Victoria, in the most beautiful city in the province of British Columbia, which happens to be represented by the best party in the country as well as in the province of British Columbia — the New Democratic Party. We are pleased to stand up to talk about tourism and how important tourism is to this community, Mr. Chairman. Tourism is very important to this community, and we think it can become even more important, and can grow and grow.

There are a couple of issues that I would like to bring up, Mr. Chairman, and ask the minister to perhaps respond and indicate his thoughts. Some of the issues involve not only the Minister of Tourism but other ministers who happen to be in the House today. One of the members for the government side on Friday talked about beautiful Victoria. I have to agree that Victoria is extremely beautiful. But he failed to mention something which I happen to think is really a shame in the city of Victoria, and a shame upon all of us that live on the Island and in the province: that the capital of British Columbia........ Many tourists comment upon this, and notice it when they walk the beaches. The city of Victoria, perhaps the

[ Page 6714 ]

tourist community in the province, still permits the pumping of raw sewage into the area around Victoria.

Interjection.

MR. BLENCOE: It's a tourism issue. Tourists mention and talk about it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It could be a tourism issue, hon. member, but the responsibility must fall within this vote, vote 65.

MR. BLENCOE: I agree. I just want to ask the minister: is he aware of the detraction, of the embarrassment, it can create in terms of trying to promote tourism in this beautiful city, as a clean city, and all the other things we say about it? Tourists many times as they leave this community comment that they are totally shocked and amazed and dismayed that this marvellous jewel, Victoria and south Vancouver Island, the tourist haven, if you will, of the province of British Columbia, still allows raw sewage to be pumped into the waters around. All those tourists that use our beaches, Beacon Hill Park, all those yachters and boaters that come to this community as tourists....

MRS. JOHNSTON: Why didn't you do something about it when you were on council?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order!

MR. BLENCOE: We tried. I can tell you why we didn't do anything when we were council: because this government — under another minister, I must admit — cancelled the sewerage assistance program and has refused consistently, Mr. Chairman, to do anything about sewage treatment in the city of Victoria.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, hon. member. You must return to the responsibilities of the Minister of Tourism.

MR. BLENCOE: Mr. Chairman, this is a number one issue in the city of Victoria and, I suggest, it is a number one issue in terms of promoting this beautiful Island. I think it's time.... I'd like the minister's comments. Is he concerned about it in his promotion? Is he concerned that tourists are really shocked and dismayed that this beautiful community continues to pump raw sewage into that water and its confines and the environment? This beautiful Victoria, and the minister....

HON. MR. RITCHIE: On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, this same member had fully three hours, when he spent most of that time debating that issue. That has absolutely nothing to do with vote 65. He should be stopped in his tracks now, completely.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The point of order is well taken. If the member wishes to continue, it will have to be on the responsibilities of the Minister of Tourism, vote 65.

MR. BLENCOE: The minister is responsible for promoting tourism in this province and in this community. He's responsible for promoting beautiful British Columbia and beautiful Victoria. What I'm suggesting, Mr. Chairman, is that beautiful Victoria is not coterminous with what we're doing with sewage in this community. I just ask the minister: is he concerned about it?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, hon. member. Sewage is not the responsibility of the Minister of Tourism. I must caution you for the final time, hon. member. Please return to the vote.

MR. BLENCOE: Okay, Mr. Chairman, I'll leave it behind, but I have to suggest that it is an issue for Tourism to be concerned about.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It may well be an issue, but it is not vote 65.

MR. MacWILLIAM: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order, the minister has already agreed that environmental preservation is in fact one of the critical issues in terms of inventory identification, which is part of the Ministry of Tourism's estimates. I would suggest that since we have gone into a great deal of discussion on environmental preservation and enhancement, this issue, which does deal with that particular question, is certainly in order.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair's opinion is that it is not in order. Please take your seat, hon. member. The second member for Victoria continues on vote 65, the responsibilities of the Minister of Tourism.

MR. BLENCOE: If the minister is not going to even suggest a response, I'll move on to something else. We'll get back to that, though. Maybe the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Hon. Mr. Ritchie) someday will take care of this issue. That's why he's so defensive: because he won't do anything about it, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, hon. member. I must caution you for the final time: you must return to vote 65.

MR. BLENCOE: I'd like to talk about an issue that I think is within the direct purview of the Minister of Tourism — I hope this one is, anyway — a convention centre for the city of Victoria. Again, I'm sure the minister knows that the city of Victoria is not a tourist attraction only in the summertime; it is also a tourist attraction, or can be a tourist attraction, in the wintertime in the off-season.

The chamber of commerce, the city council and the residents virtually are unanimous now that a convention centre in this location is a must in terms of promoting or extending tourism potential in the city of Victoria. We must have that convention centre here in this community, We've been waiting too long for it. I'm wondering if the minister could let us know whether he has informed himself of the proposal for a convention centre, whether his ministry is working with the chambers of commerce or the city council and various others who have indicated their full support, and whether he is trying to encourage his cabinet colleagues who have jurisdiction in terms of finding the resources to support — financial resources, I might add — the convention centre in the city of Victoria.

Is it a priority? Is he trying to ensure that we get the finances for a convention centre in the city of Victoria?

[ Page 6715 ]

HON. MR. RICHMOND: The answer to the member's series of questions on the convention centre is yes — to all. There's no question that a convention centre in Victoria would be a tremendous asset to this community; it would be a tremendous asset to many communities throughout the province. I've worked very closely with one member of Victoria city council, Alderman Carson, on this. I'm intimately familiar with the proposal, right down to the last $7.2 million that they're looking for.

Really, there are very few problems with the convention centre that dollars wouldn't solve. I'm sure that within the next 30 days, probably, as I said earlier in my estimates, when we sign the tourism subagreement to the ERDA agreement, the people of Victoria — probably through the member for Saanich and the Islands or the member for Oak Bay — will be bringing forth a proposal on a tourism convention centre. At this point in time, it is impossible for me to say, but perhaps at least some of the funding they're looking for can be found under the ERDA subagreement. I'm not making any commitments, but I'm sure that there must be at least some of it that will fit the agreement.

I don't want to make a long dissertation, Mr. Chairman, on the topic of sewage that the member brought up. Suffice it to say that of course, as Minister of Tourism, I'm always concerned about the ecology of the province and the environment and keeping it clean and nice, not only for tourists but for ourselves. I have to ask that member a question too, though, that I think someone here posed across the floor: that member was a member of Victoria city council — I don't know for how long, but for a long time — and I don't know what he did towards cleaning up the effluent problem in Victoria. I don't know what his record is on the subject, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Back to the responsibilities of the Minister of Tourism, vote 65.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: But I'm sure that because of his dissertation on it you will allow me just that latitude to say that of course we're concerned about it. I'm sure that through implication he didn't mean to imply that only people on that side of the floor are concerned about sewage and the ecology of this province.

I would correct him on one statement that he made, though, that tourists are shocked and dismayed about the condition of the beaches in Victoria. They are not. There may be the odd one who is, but our research shows us that that is not the case. Maybe it will be, after this member and others continually point it out.

MR. BLENCOE: I'm glad the minister was allowed to respond to something.... Well, great. Suffice it to say that maybe the minister will be encouraging those very aspects that I've been talking about, and maybe we will see some changes in the near future. The Minister of Environment (Hon. Mr. Pelton) is here today, and hopefully he will be bringing some changes. It needs provincial support for that particular aspect.

Just a couple of things about the convention centre. I would remind the minister that I know it's well and good to inform the government members — the two remaining government members — on Vancouver Island about the convention centre, but I also, with respect, remind that minister that there are two members on this side who represent the city of Victoria. Hopefully we would be informed. I know it will be at the last minute, I'm sure. Perhaps we will be kept up to date about the transactions and the progress and what's happening. He left that out of his announcement.

[5:00]

I would also indicate that the Premier did indicate support during the election for a convention centre in the city of Victoria. Indeed, there was money allocated for a convention centre in the city of Victoria some years ago, but it was withdrawn by this government and cancelled. Victoria was left out of all the goodies that are being handed out to other ridings, particularly Social Credit ridings. Victoria was left out of the largesse and the patronage system that is currently in place in British Columbia.

[Mr. Ree in the chair.]

Let's hope, Mr. Chairman, that the city of Victoria will be getting the funds necessary for its convention centre, because it is a must. It is an essential ingredient for bringing tourists and conventions and national and international trade shows to this community. It could bring all sorts of jobs and increased revenues, particularly in the off-season for this community.

As for my role. Mr. Member, in terms of the issues you mention on city council, indeed, many times I brought those issues up, and....

AN HON. MEMBER: You never did.

MR. BLENCOE: Oh, oh.

AN HON. MEMBER: You never did a thing.

MR. BLENCOE: Mr. Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. It would be appreciated if all members would allow the member to speak, and I'm sure he will give us excellent debate on vote 65 of the Minister of Tourism and remain on the subject.

MR. BLENCOE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MRS. JOHNSTON: Now for something positive.

MR. BLENCOE: I'm being positive. A convention centre is positive. I'm being positive about the environment; I'm being positive about the most beautiful city, in my estimation, in British Columbia, and I think we have some things to clean up. I think we can work on some things together, I might add, Mr. Minister. That's positive, that's cooperation, in the interests of all the citizens of Victoria. The convention centre is in the interests of all citizens of Victoria, and we would hope that we're going to see it very soon. I might add that we are in full support of provincial support for that particular centre.

I want to move on and ask the minister a couple of other questions about his role as the Minister of Tourism and how it applies to Victoria and south Vancouver Island. One of the things that is happening in Victoria is that we are slowly but surely developing festivals and special shows: the Harbour Festival, activities in the arts community, and Swiftsure, which is obviously well-established. I'm wondering if your staff are taking a look at how you and your ministry can tie in to what's being done locally, in terms of promotion and

[ Page 6716 ]

encouraging not only local people to participate but people on the mainland and to the south of us.

The jazz festival. Are there areas so we can continue to explore and increase our promotions and participation from other jurisdictions? Has the minister got any plans or any thoughts on that aspect? Victoria is becoming very well known for these festivals, but I think there's much more that could be done. Maybe the minister would comment.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: I'm very pleased to comment on the festivals that are going on in Victoria, because they are absolutely perfect for this area. There is no question about it. They are exactly what is needed in this city throughout the year. We are working very closely with the region, assisting and seeing how we can help them promote their various festivals. I think the way that they are being done — on a local basis with our assistance — is the way they should be done. I ask that member, in all honesty, if he thinks that I am not in favour of festivals. Were you there when you were let out of this chamber early to go to the Empress to watch me open the jazz festival? Were you there?

MR. BLENCOE: I was there.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Then you know my commitment to such things. You just have to know that I am totally committed to such things, and I commend the people who put on the jazz festival. That festival, by the way, generated some $2.5 million in your city in four days. Absolutely excellent.

MR. BLENCOE: The minister, unfortunately, is so used to being criticized. I wasn't criticizing the minister; I was asking about....

MRS. WALLACE: Methinks he doth protest too much.

MR. BLENCOE: Don't jump the gun. It's okay. It's really all right. I was just asking the minister what plans he has for the future in terms of integration of these festivals into your promotion and strategy for tourism on south Vancouver Island. That was my question.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Sure, that's exactly what I said. We were working closely with the people that put on these festivals to integrate them into such things as our travel planner, which has been very successful and outlines the events in any given area. As I said, these festivals are an absolutely perfect vehicle for such things as travel planners and ongoing programs on a provincial basis, regional basis, etc.

MR. BLENCOE: Just a couple more little issues, Mr. Chairman.

Ferry schedule. Ferry service to Vancouver Island is very important. Certain things have happened in ferry scheduling. Unfortunately, right at this point we're still not on the summer schedule, and it's my understanding that we're seeing some backups, some problems. As a matter of fact, when I was coming over this morning they were starting to get some long lineups. I wonder if the minister is taking a look at that in terms of issues that are within his purview. It looks like it's going to be a good year for tourists. Is he studying the situation and watching it, and will he be in a position to make some recommendations to the Minister of Transportation and Highways (Hon. A. Fraser) if we find that this summer we need to do some....?

Interjection.

MR. BLENCOE: Beautiful city and good representation.

Will he be making some suggestions for changes — obviously he can't do it — in terms of improving the service and getting the summer schedule moved this way a little bit into June, rather than July?

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Mr. Chairman, I would like to respond by saying that the B.C. Ferry Corporation is most responsive to the needs of the tourist industry, far more than they have been in the past. They're always willing to sit down and talk and listen to our suggestions, and we have good dialogue with them. They accommodate us wherever possible. They're very cognizant of the fact that they play a key role in the tourism of this province, particularly on Vancouver Island.

MR. BLENCOE: Continuing on the ferries, has the minister had any discussions with the Minister of Transportation and Highways about off-season, off-peak rates on the ferries for the winter months or the fall-off time in terms of tourism? It's been done, as you know, in other travel industries.

AN HON. MEMBER: The State of Washington.

MR. BLENCOE: Thank you.

I think we have to start being a little more — to use your language — competitive, a little more innovative in terms of how we utilize the ferries. Is the minister aware of what's being done in other jurisdictions, and has he had or will he be having discussions with the Minister of Transportation and Highways to look at an off-season seat sale type of thing, if you will, for ferries so that they can bring people to the Island, particularly in those cold, dark, quieter months of January, February and March when we don't get quite as many people here?

HON. MR. RICHMOND: The answer to the member's question is yes, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Chair might make the observation that all members had an opportunity to make similar inquiries of the Minister of Transportation and Highways, whose mandate is the B.C. Ferries, when those estimates were here. We are now under the Minister of Tourism. Possibly the member will be strictly relevant to the administrative functions of the Minister of Tourism.

MR. BLENCOE: All I was asking was whether he was having discussions with the minister on this I think very important issue, and he did say.... Did you say yes, it will be implemented or yes, you will be continuing discussions? I wasn't quite sure what the answer was.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: The answer to your two questions: yes, we're aware of what's going on in other jurisdictions, and yes, we have had discussions with the minister responsible, and we will have more discussions.

[ Page 6717 ]

MR. BLENCOE: I'll take that as something positive. Hopefully we'll be looking forward to that.

Mr. Chairman, I have just one other issue. Unfortunately, it's a slightly negative one, but maybe if we deal with it properly we can turn it around and make it a positive one.

As the minister is well aware, living part of the year here, Victoria and south Vancouver Island — all Vancouver Island, of course — are well served by excellent restaurants, marvellous restaurants. Locals love those restaurants, and so do the tourists. About once a month at 7:30 a.m. on Wednesday mornings I meet with business people in the community. We hear about tourism issues, but one thing that comes up constantly is the residual impact of the restaurant meal tax. I'm sure the minister has heard about this, and it has had an impact on tourism. I wonder again if he has had any discussions or has tried to have maybe some changes in the future in terms of this, particularly in Victoria. It has a great impact on restaurants in this community, which are obviously very important to the tourism industry. Can he comment upon that? Is he aware of the impact, and is he making any recommendations for change vis-à-vis tourism?

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Mr. Chairman, we canvassed that subject about an hour ago in answer to questions from the member for Okanagan North (Mr. MacWilliam). But suffice it to say that to my knowledge, and I may stand to be corrected, we don't get complaints from tourists regarding the meal tax. We simply do not. It seems to be an accepted fact of life. It happens throughout most of the free world that there are taxes on meals. I don't think that it deters tourism one iota. I take an opposite view to that member, because our research doesn't show it, nor do we get complaints from tourists about the meal tax. So contrary so what he says, I don't think it detracts from tourism at all.

MR. LOCKSTEAD: It makes it difficult for me to know where to start here since the Chair really has indicated that we can't mention the word f-e-r-r-i-e-s in this Legislature under this debate. I want you to understand, Mr. Chairman, that my riding, the Sunshine Coast, has no road connection to the lower mainland. Neither has Powell River, Texada Island, Bella Coola or Bella Bella, and you have to take a f-e-r-r-y — a ship. So tourism in my riding depends primarily.... Except for chartered aircraft and scheduled aircraft into some of these areas, you have to take a boat.

This has a direct connection. Now I want you to understand, Mr. Chairman, in my riding, particularly the Sunshine Coast and Powell River part of the riding, we have excellent hotels, accommodation, excellent food, excellent fishing, charter — I didn't say the word — excellent charter boats for fishing arrangements, one of the best canoe trails in all of the world, would you believe, not too well known yet. I'm sure the minister would know about the canoe effort that has just recently been completed in the Powell River area. All kinds of things, even some skiing and hiking and you name it.

[5:15]

However, in order to get to Powell River and to the Sunshine Coast, you have to take one of those things. Actually, you have to take a ferry. So I'm going to ask the minister a couple of questions.

First of all, Mr. Chairman, we have a number of committees throughout the Sunshine Coast and the Powell River regional area. We have the Powell River tourist society, the Expo 86 committee, the chambers of commerce and other groups. Because I have been working as closely as possible with these groups, I want to know if the minister has been meeting and talking with these groups, particularly the activities of the Expo 86 committee, who are really working very hard, which leads me to my second question.

Could the minister give us some indication of what spinoff areas like Powell River and the Sunshine Coast...? We can include upper Vancouver Island, and the interior of British Columbia. What kind of spinoff can we really expect from Expo 86? It's a serious question.

Relating to the ferries, I know that your ministry has been involved with the B.C. Ferry Corporation and the Ministry of Highways in promoting a circle tour originating anywhere in the circle — let's start with Horsehoe Bay, Vancouver, Sunshine Coast, Powell River, Comox, back to Nanaimo or Victoria, back to Vancouver — with a vastly reduced ticket rate to promote tourism to these areas. I wonder if the minister could perhaps bring me up to date on that. I know Mr. Hodgson, formerly of the B.C. Ferry Corporation, was after this. We're talking about the promotion of tourism, and I know that Mr. Hodgson for several years had advocated this type of system, and it was never implemented.

I would suspect now that the possibility of.... It involved two different systems. Now that the Ministry of Highways ferries are apparently going to be placed under the jurisdiction of B.C. Ferries, perhaps the minister has some thoughts on that in terms of tourist promotion.

Last but not least.... I've got to talk about boats, Mr. Chairman, in terms of tourism. The Bella Coola Chamber of Commerce have for some years been pressing for a connecting vessel. There is no water transportation into that community at the present time. There's a 256-mile road connection to Williams Lake, and that highway has been upgraded significantly. It could use some more work, but that's for another estimate. What they are asking for is a ferry connection from Bella Coola to Bella Bella or perhaps even Port Hardy, in order to promote tourism, to meet the Queen of the North and the.... What's the other vessel? I forget. Anyway, the Queen of the North stops during the summer months at that community twice a week to make those connections so the tourists can make the circle route from wherever in British Columbia, down through the valley — which is a beautiful valley, by the way — and then leave without having to backtrack all the way back up through the interior to leave. So I have those questions, plus one or two more. It'll save me getting up again.

I would like to ask the minister if the ministry has any figures relating to our current loss or profit from tourism in British Columbia. I know that we want to promote tourism in British Columbia; naturally a lot of our citizens depend upon tourism. But are we net losers in British Columbia?

Interjection.

MR. LOCKSTEAD: Two hundred and fifty million dollars, the member just told me. I had no idea. Do our people from British Columbia spend more outside the province? Oh, they do. The minister says yes. I don't know how much, but he's going to tell me in a moment.

One of the things that bother me.... It's hard to discuss this without advocating legalized gambling in British Columbia, and I'm sure that most people are probably not in favour of it. I know that seven or eight years ago when I raised this subject in the House, talking about the number of dollars lost

[ Page 6718 ]

to places like Reno, Vegas and Atlantic City.... In British Columbia there are literally plane-loads of people leaving every day to those communities. I've gone myself a few times and enjoyed it very much.

AN HON. MEMBER: How'd you do?

MR. LOCKSTEAD: The last time I was down there I made $348 and paid my air fare. Not bad!

AN HON. MEMBER: Keno?

MR. LOCKSTEAD: I won't tell you what because I don't want it on the record, but I'll tell you after.

In any event, to get back to it, we do, as British Columbians.... This strikes me as rather strange. I know that the last time I mentioned this subject in the House about six or seven years ago I got no end of mail, a great deal of it from the Fraser Valley area, from people accusing me of all kinds of things: being involved with the Mafia and all that crap, all that stuff.

Interjection.

MR. LOCKSTEAD: Well, it's true; I did. I had a stack that high. But the fact is that we are a little bit hypocritical, right? How many aircraft a day leave British Columbia...? I know how many, as a matter of fact: quite a few.

Interjection.

MR. LOCKSTEAD: That's close enough, eh? How many buses leave British Columbia every day to head for Reno and Vegas? Good B.C. dollars down the tube. People are going to gamble. They're going to go and spend these essentially tourist dollars in those communities. I know that you're never supposed to raise these kinds of questions in this House, but I have done so in the past and I will probably again in the future. Not only that, I'm looking forward to my next trip to Reno.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: As quickly as possible, yes, we have been working very closely with your Expo 86 committee, Mr. Member. Our people at Expo, under Miss Maire Shaw, have been to your city of Powell River on more than one occasion to give them every assistance possible. There are now 83 such committees throughout this province. So I haven't met with every committee, but I've met with a good number of them. The enthusiasm out there is tremendous.

You ask how those communities are going to benefit from Expo. They're going to benefit because of those committees that we have been pushing them to form for the last two and a half years — I have personally. We've told them to have events happening in their communities while Expo is going on to attract these extra visitors to our province to your community. It gives me an opportunity to tell you that Tourism B.C. will have a very large presence in the B.C. Pavilion at Expo to do just that, so that we can take the people, once they've spent their three, four or five days at the world's fair, and move them throughout the rest of the province by telling them there are exciting events going on in every community.

Some of the, I guess, more notable examples of these committees raising substantial dollars are Islands 86, Cariboo Gold Rush, High Country and the Okanagan one. I forget what the promotion is that your particular committee has going. But yes, we are working very closely with them, and yes, they will benefit from Expo.

The circle tours. We canvassed that a little earlier in my estimates today in our travel guide that we put out with numerous circle tours in it, including one in your area.

Interjection.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: Well, if you want to raise the subject of Needles again, we can. I flew over it the other day and it's there; contrary to what the member says, Needles is there. It's not large, but it's there.

Interjection.

HON. MR. RICHMOND: That may be, and we should change the name of it to Atlantis, but I think we have probably canvassed the subject of Needles to death. The circle tours are very important to us and a very important part of our travel plans.

Tourist promotion regarding the ferries. Most of these subjects, Mr. Member, were canvassed earlier this afternoon. Yes, we do work closely with B.C. Ferries to integrate their schedules with tourism wherever possible, and the same goes with the Bella Coola ferry. It's a question that comes under another minister's jurisdiction, and it becomes strictly a budgetary problem. I would like, too, to have a ferry run into Bella Coola and into Bella Bella and into Port Hardy, but it's not my budget and therefore I will leave that subject to the Minister of Transportation and Highways (Hon. A. Fraser).

Yes, there is a net loss in tourism dollars from British Columbia. We canvassed that earlier and your colleague from Okanagan North sitting right beside you has the exact figures of how many dollars the net loss is in British Columbia tourism. I don't happen to have them right at my fingers, but he does. He's got them right there.

Again, the subject of legalized gambling I will leave to the estimates of the Provincial Secretary.

MR. HOWARD: I was going to deal with the question of tourism being a two-way street. Money comes in with tourists, and those British Columbians who go visiting elsewhere take dollars with them out again, and we often end up in a net loss position with that. I think what we tend to do in dealing with the question of tourism is just talk about the one-way street generation of funds coming in, and don't look at the other side of it. That tends to present a misleading picture to the general public, because when we talk in terms of tourist activity generating millions of dollars, and leave it at that, we tend to leave the impression that that's sort of a net gain, and in reality it isn't.

I think recognizing that and paying attention to that should result in our placing an extraordinary emphasis upon the necessity of staying at home and visiting home and bringing people to British Columbia, in order that we end up in a net plus position with respect to tourism, and not a net loss position. I use the words "balance of payments"; but it isn't that, because we don't maintain balance of payments figures on a provincial basis, although the information is available.

What I want to get to is the point that all of the tourist attractions and facilities and availabilities are not in Victoria and lower Vancouver Island, and they're not in Vancouver

[ Page 6719 ]

and the area surrounding Vancouver. There are a great many tremendously fascinating tourist potentials and tourist attractions in the north and the northwest that don't get the attention, I submit, that they deserve.

I want to run through just a very brief sort of travelogue with the committee and with the minister. I'd like to point out that just a few miles outside of my hometown is Lakelse Hot Springs, loosely referred to as Skoglund Hot Springs, which has been dormant for some five or six years now; it's closed. It was just recently sold to an entrepreneur from Kitimat, with the possibility — or great probability, I understand — that it will finally get back into operation, and that people will finally be able to use it again. That will be valuable to local residents. It will tend to keep people in the area moving the dollars around and coming to visit and stay overnight and stay on weekends at the hot springs, as they used to do a number of years ago when it first started.

[5:30]

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

While it may not be encompassed within the vision of a world-class hot springs at the moment, nonetheless it will be an attraction to tourists to come to visit that area. That by itself is not sufficient. I don't think it's commonly known or commonly advertised or promoted that not too far away from there are very extensive lava bed flows, unique in British Columbia, exclusively in British Columbia. They are not promoted as being in existence. In conjunction with the lava beds is the fascinating and rich history of the native people about the development of those lava beds within their history and their stories and legends of how that came about and what occurred there.

Just a bit north from there, I'm told, we have the only active volcano in this area. I'm advised it's active on about a 300-year cycle. There are a number of volcanic cones on the periphery or circumference of Mount Edziza, in the Telegraph Creek area, that are worth visiting, worth promoting, and worth people seeing by flying over them and peering down into the cones, just to be able to appreciate what nature has done in that area.

Close by is the Grand Canyon of the Stikine, which has been mentioned on other occasions. It parallels anything in the Grand Canyon of Colorado, as far as I am concerned, with successive strata of lava flow along the cliffs of the Stikine River indicating successive eruptions of the volcanoes at Mount Edziza and the lava flow moving down into that particular position. That's well worth promoting, well worth preserving, and well worth ensuring that people have an opportunity to visit and see.

Just a few miles from Terrace at Kitsalas Canyon is one of the most fascinating prehistoric — and I mean before the European came to this land — village sites. It's still there, and it can be developed. The Kitsalas people have a plan to develop that and to have it as a tourist attraction.

We've got riverboat trips and wilderness areas and camera-hunt potential in wildlife — a whole range of that sort of thing that is just exquisite to visit — not to mention the superb fishing in certain of those rivers and streams. That whole area has tended to be neglected in the promotional advertising that may be necessary to tell people from other lands what exists there, and how it needs to be preserved and how it needs to be extolled and people attracted to visit.

Every river, every stream, every tributary to the major rivers, every rivulet, every mountain, every valley, has an Indian name, although maybe not identified on the maps of today as such. But the names exist, and the ancient Indian names that were given to those places centuries ago.... The native people still know what they are. They are still family and tribal possessions and inheritances.

The stories and the legends with respect to those locations and those rivers and streams and older village sites are being ignored. I would urge the minister to consider the commissioning of a booklet describing the sites and the old communities, the historic places where native people lived, the rivers and the points in the rivers, the names of the lakes, what they meant historically, how they came to have that name, so that tourists would have some appreciation of the history of that part of the province when they come, and to take with them when they go back home.

I give, for example, to the minister.... I referred a moment ago to Lakelse Hot Springs and Lakelse Lake close by there. Well, that is a current anglicized version of an earlier Indian designation called lakgels, which in the Tsimshian language is a freshwater mussel. It is up on that place where freshwater mussels live, and people used to harvest them and eat them. That is not even commonly known among people in the area, but it's a fact of life and it's historically, culturally correct. How beautiful it would be, I think, for tourists and others in the area to have that knowledge in booklet form and to be able to identify those places and see them, and understand what the history was within the language of the original peoples of this land and of that area. That's largely ignored.

The minister has some responsibility for lotteries. I don't know why it wouldn't be possible, for argument's sake, to have a series of prizes within the lottery system which would involve not prizes in money terms but prizes of a week or two weeks, or whatever you pick as being appropriate, to spend at some tourist attraction place in British Columbia, a prize which would involve the costs of accommodation, aircraft, automobiles, river trips for a tourist or a family of tourists to spend a week or two in some of these extremely beautiful places, rich in history, well worth seeing, well worth preserving. Perhaps the lottery foundation can do that. I don't see why not. I don't see why we couldn't attract people on that kind of basis, instead of reaching for the $10 million pot of gold or whatever it is that comes along from time to time in a lottery. In addition to the large prizes, have a number of small prizes identified with tourism in this province and with the desirability of people, if they win these prizes, to have the opportunity to spend their vacation in areas of this province like the northwest, which I submit don't get the kind of promotion and attention they should.

MRS. WALLACE: I have a few points that I want to raise with the minister. First of all, I would like to refer to a couple of things that were said earlier during these estimates. My colleague from North Vancouver raised the problem of the increased costs for putting brochures on the B.C. ferries. He pointed out a very serious problem there and really an inexcusable offence in allowing the organization which has the contract to do this job to go ahead and bill these new rates, overlapping a period of some three months already covered by the government subsidy. I know the minister has promised to look into that, but I would like to point out to the minister the importance of having on the ferries those brochures to tourist-oriented facilities on Vancouver Island. The majority of people who come to Vancouver Island come on those

[ Page 6720 ]

ferries. You either fly or you come on the ferry. There's no road here. When you come on those ferries, that is your access to information about tourist facilities on Vancouver Island.

I submit that it is much more crucial to the people on Vancouver Island to have that information on the ferries than if you're going the other way. While you have people coming off the Island to the mainland, the great majority of tourists on the mainland drive there or come by train or plane, and are right in Vancouver and that lower mainland area, and go from there by whatever way. But the only way you get to Vancouver Island, if you're not flying, is to get there on the ferry. It is mandatory, if you're going to do any business with your tourist facilities, that you have that information aboard those ferries. The fact that those rates have increased just horrendously.... My colleague talks about doubling. The figures that I saw indicated that they had more than doubled. The cost for a small operator on Vancouver Island is almost prohibitive — to carry them on all the ferries, which he has to do, if he's having access to getting that information out to the people who are coming onto the Island. It becomes very expensive for that small operator on Vancouver Island to get that information out. I suggest that the removal of that subsidy and allowing those rates to go up is really discriminatory against the tourist industry on Vancouver Island. It is mandatory; they have to advertise there, and it is so expensive as to be almost prohibitive for them. I would ask the minister to review his decision on that, because it is really hitting hard at the tourist industry on Vancouver Island to have that increased rate for placing their advertising brochures. He said that brochures on the ferries for the private sector should be left to the private sector. That's fine, if that's the only way that everybody's getting the information. But when you have areas that are not nearly so dependent as we are on Vancouver Island, it does discriminate against Vancouver Island organizations.

Convention centre. I think all of us got — at least I certainly did — in the mail today a little note from Frank Carson with a copy of an editorial from the Times-Colonist. He said something to this effect: "This will help you too. Let's all get together." I'm surprised that that minister would stand up and say that the member from Oak Bay and the member from Saanich are going to be involved with this, and simply ignore the two members from Victoria and the member for Esquimalt–Port Renfrew. Certainly everybody should be involved in this. It shouldn't be a political, partisan football, as that minister seems to be trying to make it be. It will affect Cowichan, of course it will, if you have conventions down here.

Let me talk just a little bit about conventions. Thanks to the community efforts and the fact that the government that preceded this government, between 1972 and 1975, saw fit to put in place funding for a community centre in Duncan, we now have a very good facility for conventions in Duncan. We've had the legion there recently with 900 delegates. We had the women's auxiliary of the legion there a few weeks ago with 700 delegates. The kind of impetus that those things have to a community are really worthwhile. We have 80 percent of our construction workers out of work. What better way to give a stimulus to the economy than to put them to work building a convention centre here in Victoria?

Similar to what my colleague from Skeena has been saying, but on a little different basis, we also have a group of natives on Vancouver Island who have been working very hard to establish a cultural centre. They have been working with natives and non-natives on this. The name Simon Charlie is probably familiar to many people in this House, including the Minister of Tourism. He has a dream, a vision of a cultural centre there that would depict the olden days of the Cowichans. He got some funding from the federal government, and he has tried many times to have that funding increased to allow him to go on and add to his facility. He has applied to the First Citizens' Fund, which I know is not under this minister's purview, but certainly that would be a tremendously valuable asset to tourism. We all know what the Polynesian Village has done for Hawaii in terms of tourism, and that kind of thing. That cultural centre that would go back and build.... If he got to the ultimate of what he is thinking about, he would have replicas of the various ancient Indian cultures which were established along the Cowichan River. He needs funding, but he also needs moral support. He needs support from this Minister of Tourism, to encourage him in building this cultural centre that would provide just one more thing to see and do in the Cowichan Valley.

[5:45]

As you know, Mr. Minister, Islands 86 has probably been one of the most active of the committees working to get an overflow effect from Expo 86 here on Vancouver Island. It certainly does pose a few problems. They're working very hard, and they're coming up with a lot of great ideas. On their behalf I have contacted your colleague the Minister of Highways (Hon. A. Fraser). He tells me he is looking at putting extra ferries into service and having some of them accommodate more passengers, rather than vehicles. That's good because if we can keep the vehicles off the Island and use buses and the foot passenger, we can get a lot more people over here than we can with long lineups for ferries. But there probably will be lineups, no matter how hard we try to avoid them. I am wondering whether the minister has considered the possibility of some sort of reservation system for tours through the Gulf Islands. Otherwise we're going to have a lot of frustrated tourists going home who haven't been able to get on those ferries.

So I think there is room for a lot of joint activity between the Minister of Tourism and the minister responsible for those ferries, to ensure that prospective customers are able to get on board and not have long lineups — discouragement of vehicles and trying to get those foot passengers on. Also, if you have foot passengers, you have to be sure that you have adequate bus service on this side. One of the things that some of the people have been looking at is perhaps getting the school buses pressed into service during summer vacation. There's some concern now about that relative to insurance, and also the comfort of those buses, but I think some of them might be acceptable for short hauls.

The House Leader seems to be extremely anxious to....

HON. MR. GARDOM: Just anxious; not extremely anxious.

MRS. WALLACE: Well, Mr. House Leader, I'm going to finish my remarks, and if I don't make them by six o'clock that's just too bad. I think I have as much right as anyone else in this House to express my opinions on tourism.

There is quite a move to bed-and-breakfast in Cowichan as a result of Islands 86 and some of the other people who are involved in getting tourist accommodation set up for any

[ Page 6721 ]

possible and hopeful flow of tourists from Expo to Vancouver Island. The minister has mentioned what happens in towns and villages. I'm wondering what happens in the rural areas, the regional districts. Does a regional district have the authority to put any kind of controls, or will that be wide open with no regulations at all? A lot of the places that are being looked at in my area are certainly outside of the municipal boundaries; they're in regional areas. I'm wondering just what controls or regulations there will be, if any, over those facilities in the regional districts.

One other item that I want to raise with the minister deals with year-round accommodation. The problem with tourism is that it's so short-lived, and I'm wondering what activities, if any, he has taken relative to encouraging particularly Canadians from outside B.C. to spend some of their winters here in British Columbia. We do have the California of Canada here on the coast. We have the facilities, and I'm wondering if there has been any coordinated effort to encourage those prairie farmers, as it were, to come over here and spend their winters. A lot of them do that, but I think that's a market we haven't exploited to the fullest. Now if you do that you have to have something for them to do, and you have to have something set up and some kind of an organized thing, and that's true of an awful lot of tourists who come in from outside. You can get a lot more of those dollars by establishing tours or something organized and prearranged where people will come and utilize some of the facilities that you have. If they don't know about those, they're not going to come and then if they do come they're not going to spend the kind of dollars here that we would like to see remain in British Columbia. I think that's a field that the minister could really look at.

I couldn't leave this discussion without talking about the E&N Railway. There is something that we should be looking at and advertising, as far as tourism goes. It seems that Via Rail is not that anxious to advertise. I'm wondering what the minister is going to be doing about that, particularly during Expo. Also, the member for Vancouver South talked about the Royal Hudson, and for a long time I and other members on this side of the House have been advocating a steam train on the Island run. We've seen how popular the Maggie is. It seems that steam still has a great attraction for a lot of people.

1 wonder whether or not the minister has come up with any thoughts or ideas about a steam train for the E&N.

I have a lot of other ideas on how we could utilize some of our facilities. The forest facilities that we have.... Certainly people from the Prairies.... A very interesting forestry tour could be set up. We have a station at Mesachie Lake that has been cloning trees for 30 years. It's a very fascinating thing to see — one tourist attraction.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

The committee, having reported resolutions, was granted leave to sit again.

WORKERS COMPENSATION AMENDMENT ACT,
1985

Hon. Mr. Segarty presented a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Workers Compensation Amendment Act, 1985.

HON. MR. SEGARTY: Mr. Speaker, the bill provides for the appointment of a chairman and a series of vice-chairmen to the workers' compensation appeal process, and I hope that it eventually will be located throughout the regions of British Columbia. It also provides an opportunity for the appeals chairman, on the consent of the applicant, to consent to a one-member appeal panel. I hope that we get the cooperation and support of all hon. members in the passage of this bill.

Bill 61 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Hon. Mr. Rogers tabled the 1983 annual report of the British Columbia Utilities Commission.

Hon. Mr. Gardom moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 5:55 p.m.