[ Page 8723 ]

CONTENTS

Routine Proceedings

Vancouver Centennial Celebration Act (Bill 64). Second reading. (Hon. Mr. Wolfe)

Hon. Mr. Wolfe –– 8723

Mr. Barrett –– 8723

Hon. Mrs. McCarthy –– 8724

Mrs. Dailly –– 8725

Hon. Mr. Wolfe –– 8725

Urban Transit Authority Amendment Act, 1982 (Bill 51). Committee stage. (Hon. Mr. Vander Zalm)

On section 4 –– 8726

Mr. Lorimer

Third reading –– 8726

Committee of Supply: Ministry of Tourism estimates. (Hon. Mrs. Jordan)

On vote 73: minister's office –– 8726

Hon. Mrs. Jordan

Mr. Hall

Appendix –– 8735

TUESDAY, JULY 13, 1982

The House met at 10 a.m.

Orders of the Day

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to proceed to public bills and orders.

Leave granted.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Second reading of Bill 64, Mr. Speaker.

VANCOUVER CENTENNIAL CELEBRATION ACT

HON. MR. WOLFE: Mr. Speaker, the Vancouver Centennial Celebration Act provides a vehicle, at the request of the city of Vancouver, for organizing that city's centennial celebrations in 1986. Arrangements have been taking place for over a year under a centennial commission in Vancouver; co-chairmen are Mayor Harcourt and Don Hamilton, with a very large committee functioning as an agency.

This act would formalize the arrangements for that celebration. It provides for powers to raise funds separately from the council itself; and powers to administer the funds, to acquire and dispose of property, and so on. City council consider this bill appropriate and necessary, and they have repeatedly requested that it proceed. I believe it is similar to the form of centennial celebrations adopted by the province on previous occasions, and provides a vehicle separate from the city for organizing this celebration in 1986.

With that, Mr. Speaker, I move second reading of Bill 64.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I have waited since 1936 to make comments about the celebration of Vancouver's second 50 years. At the time of the 1936 half-centenary celebration — I was six years old then — I was disappointed that the city of Vancouver did not have this bill to empower itself to celebrate its fiftieth anniversary the way it should have been celebrated. Part of the reason why it couldn't be celebrated that way at that time was because there was no ward system in Vancouver. Here they are, 50 years later, asking for authority through this legislation for the city to celebrate its hundredth anniversary, and there's still no ward system allowing a proper celebration on the basis of neighbourhood under this bill.

When you delegate authority under this bill, giving power to raise funds and acquire property, how in the world....

AN HON. MEMBER: Order!

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Minister, if you're out of order, correct yourself in the hallway. I am not your physician; I'm not even your social worker. If you've got a problem of compulsive talking, head for the corridor.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

MR. BARRETT: Would you call the minister to order?

MR. SPEAKER: To the bill, please.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, you're the one who called for order in the House in conference. Only in this chamber can we have this kind of delegated conversation. We can't have it in Vancouver through a ward system.

As the minister says, this bill deals with the power to raise money, to administer the funds and to acquire property. You're delegating authority to this commission which the democratic decision of the citizens of Vancouver can't have, on a regional basis.

I appeal to the minister, who was present at the 1936 celebration, who covets his little bronze medal.... You weren't there in '36?

HON. MR. WOLFE: No, I was too young.

MR. BARRETT: You were 40 years old in Alberta in 1936.

Even though I was very tender in years, the naiveté that I had at six years of age is still with me to this day. I believed that fair play and democracy would have its way, that the citizens' will would be expressed in a majority. Here I am, those few years later, with my naiveté still intact, but it is being seriously assaulted by this minister today. You won't even let the city of Vancouver decide for itself how it wants to be represented, yet you pass this kind of legislation from Big Daddy government in Victoria, saying they can acquire property and giving them power to raise money for a centennial celebration.

I know that most members of this chamber are not interested in democracy. The Minister of Municipal Affairs (Hon. Mr. Vander Zalm) stifles democracy in Vancouver every time he gets a chance. But I don't subscribe to his philosophy. In supporting this bill I believe the citizens of Vancouver should have the right — on a neighbourhood, ethnic and community basis — to be part of the responsibility of making decisions about the centennial celebration. For instance, there is a very large Italian community in Vancouver. Last Sunday, on the back of a truck, the Minister of Municipal Affairs tried to get on the bandwagon and pretend he was an Italian for a day. So did I. It's good politics to be Italian for a day. But is it not good politics also to allow the ethnic communities the right to have a ward system and celebrate on a ward basis and a city basis in Vancouver?

He doesn't even know what bill we're talking about, Mr. Speaker; he doesn't care. The Minister of Municipal Affairs wore wooden shoes to an Italian celebration. He likes to play a little bit of a dictator. When it suits his purposes he shows up in a neighbourhood of Vancouver, pretends that he's Italian and celebrates everything that went with that day. And you're welcome in my constituency, Mr. Member.

I want to tell you that even though he was booed.... I didn't approve of that — I told my mother not to do that. But my mother, my family, and the roots that I have in Vancouver East should also be expressed in a ward system that should be included in this bill to celebrate a centenary that includes the democratic responsibility given to the citizens of Vancouver to decide for themselves what kind of government they want.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Minister of Municipal Affairs will come to order.

I would remind the Leader of the Opposition that a full-fledged debate on the ward system would not be in order under this bill. A passing reference perhaps can be tolerated.

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MR. BARRETT: I was only making a passing reference, although it takes me 40 minutes to get past.

MR. SPEAKER: I'll try to help you, hon. member.

Interjection.

MR. BARRETT: I hear the voice from the great Peace River country again, the great anti-democrat who doesn't understand that people have the right to determine for themselves in a free society how they want to be governed. They don't want to be pushed around by a dictatorship of right-wingers that you support, who do not believe that democracy should prevail in Vancouver.

I support this bill, but the bill could be improved.

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please, hon. members. The Leader of the Opposition has the floor.

MR. BARRETT: There is a certain courtesy that I would ask of the minister. I'm appealing to the minister to understand that it is the taxpayers who will ultimately pay the bills in Vancouver. I know it is difficult to capture the attention span of the minister, but I hope to be brief. I'm making a direct appeal to the minister to point out to him that paternalism for the city of Vancouver on its 100th birthday could end by allowing the citizens of Vancouver to have a ward system, and in celebrating the centenary they could also celebrate the emancipation from the overbearing hand of the provincial government. They could celebrate freedom for the citizens of Vancouver, freedom for the taxpayers and freedom from the overwhelming burden of a dictatorial provincial government that even has to bring in this kind of bill to allow Vancouver to celebrate its 100th anniversary.

I'm not threatening that I'll be here for the 200th anniversary, but I want to warn the minister that regardless of where my future happens to lie, whether I happen to represent above or below this chamber, unless some action is taken I will haunt the minister until the citizens of Vancouver have established their democratic rights through this kind of legislation to decide for themselves how they wish to represent themselves. There are a few of us in this chamber who are native-born Vancouverites, including the member for Vancouver–Little Mountain. She was born ten years after I was. If that doesn't influence the minister, I don't know what will. Even though she was born ten years after I was — I stand here at the age of 86 — I want to tell the minister that time is catching up on both of us. In the east end of Vancouver where the minister and I are both from, they have always said that they want regional representation and a ward system under this bill.

In conclusion, let me say on behalf of the citizens of Vancouver, those native-born Vancouverites and those who have all the ethnic, religious and cultural mixes of that great city of Vancouver, that we should improve this move today by having the government announce that a ward system will be granted to Vancouver as well.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: Mr. Speaker, in responding to this bill, may I just pass comment on the remarks that have been made by the Leader of the Opposition. First of all, may I congratulate him in holding his age so well. He's looking great this morning and he's in good form. He's been able to work into this bill, which pays tribute to the great city of Vancouver with its tremendous history and its remarkable and optimistic future, a discussion on the ward system. We pay tribute to this bill that will bring the centennial of 1986 into being for the city of Vancouver. He's been able to work into this bill a discussion on the ward system. It's been very aptly done, as the Leader of the Opposition can do.

It's interesting that in working that discussion into this centennial act that we have before us, the Leader of the Opposition made no reference at all to the opportunity that was given to a committee of this House to have an amendment proceed on the ward system in the city of Vancouver and give the citizens of Vancouver a democratic vote to receive that. It was that great financial expert from Vancouver Centre who defeated that amendment in the private bills committee.

MR. BARRETT: You can't talk about committees in here.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

HON. MRS. McCARTHY: I appreciate that we have before us an act which marks 1986 as the most exciting centennial that the province of British Columbia has probably ever seen, and we've had some remarkable centennials in our province, as you will know, Mr. Speaker. In fact, there are many great communities in our province which have marked their half-century, their quarter century and some even 75 years. Then, of course, we have some that have used the same format of this bill today in order to do that, and this House has recognized that in other years.

I'd like to pay tribute to the city itself and to the city's celebration. First of all, because it marks the joining of the country from east to west in terms of its railroad ties and its railroad history, 1986 will be a particularly interesting year because of its emphasis on transportation. Also it was the year 1886 that one of the very first ships came to empty its cargo in the city of Vancouver from the Far East, and so it again pays tribute to transportation. Because of that, the Expo 86 celebration that has been put forward by the province of British Columbia will have the city of Vancouver as its base and will have at its base the transportation link and the transportation theme. So Transpo 86 or Expo 86 will mark the celebration, and this bill marks the recognition, if you like, of all of the people of British Columbia and of the city of Vancouver's tremendous history, its remarkable place in Canada's history and its remarkable place on the Pacific Rim of our great nation.

I also would like to implore the minister who has put this forward, my colleague in the cabinet and in Vancouver–Little Mountain (Hon. Mr. Wolfe), that the emphasis on the history of Vancouver should be well marked and well emphasized during that year to the school children. So very often in our centennials, we have given the young people of our province something to remember. Truly, it is only by remembering the efforts of the pioneers of the past and the great sacrifices that have been made in history that the young people of today can understand just how much effort, work and activity has gone on in previous years.

When one thinks that it is only 100 years old, one must really be privileged to live in that city and to have been at least a part of the history of the city of Vancouver. There are probably very few cities in the world that have such an

[ Page 8725 ]

effective, most attractive site on which to build. I think I can say with some pride, as a Vancouverite, that we have had in history people who have been good stewards of our parks system, our general plant and our city council, in order to have built a city which is the envy of many throughout the world.

As I pay tribute to that, may I say that of course we can never rest on the laurels of the past, but we must look to the future. I would like to implore the minister to pass on some of the ideas of what we can do. I particularly would like to look back on a year when we celebrated the Captain Cook Bicentennial in the whole of the province. At that time we gave to the young people of the province a history of that first explorer who set foot on British Columbia soil in 1778.

I would like to suggest that we do some of the interesting things in the city of Vancouver that other cities have done in past years. For example, I look at the city of London, and other cities that we have seen and heard of, that do some pretty exciting things with lighting. I would like to see our Lions Gate Bridge, for example, lighted for the centennial. I would like to see the new crossing that will, I hope, be built for Expo 86 with some kind of attractiveness. It seems to me that throughout our cities in Canada, because it is such a young nation, we don't do the kinds of artwork and sculpture that is done in great cities in Europe. I can think of the city of Vancouver calling on corporations, good corporate citizens and organizations to do the things which will give that effectiveness, life and a little bit more excitement to the city for its centennial year. That could be a legacy for years to come, because it would enhance the city and give it a tremendously more exciting look.

This act proclaims a committee and the 1986 centennial year for what, if all members of the House who come from other parts of our province will appreciate, I would say is the greatest city of B.C. I support the bill.

MRS. DAILLY: Mr. Speaker, first of all I hope you will indulge in giving me the same licence in discussing this bill which the Minister of Human Resources (Hon. Mrs. McCarthy) just took at the beginning of her remarks.

I wish to say that the minister has lied. She stated that the NDP opposition voted against having wards, and that is a lie.

[Mr. Speaker rose.]

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Hon. members are all aware that language which is unparliamentary cannot be allowed in this chamber. I ask the hon. member for Burnaby North to withdraw the word "lie."

[Mr. Speaker resumed his seat.]

MRS. DAILLY: I will withdraw anything that is unparliamentary.

She indulged in invective against the NDP in a committee at which she was not even attending. The words she used were far from the truth. Mr. Speaker, I want that to get on the record. It's typical McCarthyism, and we're fed up with it over on this side of the House.

I will go on to the bill again. As a native-born Vancouverite, as are many in this chamber today, I wish to say that I'm very pleased that we're all going to have an opportunity to take part in celebrating the centennial of Vancouver city. I have nothing further to say, except that I hope most of us will have an opportunity to be there to partake in those celebrations.

HON. MR. WOLFE: Mr. Speaker, I know you wish members would not engage in debate on other matters when discussing the bill before us concerning the Vancouver centennial for 1986. However, the member who just took her seat made reference to the comments of my colleague here and I want to say that she is well aware that government members on the committee associated with this matter proposed an amendment which would have made possible the introduction of a ward system in Vancouver. That is the point being made by my colleague here. A reasonable amendment was proposed by the committee members, but it was turned aside by the member for Vancouver Centre. He refused to allow the amendment which would have permitted a referendum on the introduction of a ward system in Vancouver.

MR. SPEAKER: I remind the hon. minister that matters which take place in committee are not of concern to the House except through a report of the chairman of that committee. We must insist on that.

HON. MR. WOLFE: I understand, Mr. Speaker.

We are dealing here with the opportunity to celebrate Vancouver's centennial in 1986. This bill was requested by the Vancouver city council, which is already engaged in elaborate preparations; this provides a vehicle for a number of activities to take place separately from the city.

Vancouver's centennial will be celebrated throughout 1986. The world transportation fair — Expo 86 — which will take place between April and October, is going to be a very exciting event. My colleague, the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Hon. Mr. Hyndman), is responsible for Expo. As Provincial Secretary, I had a considerable amount to do with obtaining the approval of the world exposition people for holding the world's fair at Vancouver in 1986. I'm very proud that this event is taking place, because it was generated by my colleague the Minister of Human Resources (Hon. Mrs. McCarthy), and others some years ago as a means of celebrating the centennial in 1986.

This celebration is going to focus world attention on the city of Vancouver. Some people say they don't want all this attention, that Vancouver's a busy place now. In these times, this is an optimistic, exciting opportunity to attract world attention to Vancouver. Exhibitors are coming from around the world. Great Britain, United States and other major countries are coming to Vancouver in 1986 with major financial commitments to participate in a world's fair based on land, sea, and air transportation that will include the latest innovations in transportation. It's a very timely and exciting event that I know you will plan to attend yourself.

The bill before us authorizes the commission to adopt emblems, crests, badges or marks — in other words, a logo — for this purpose, as well as the fund-raising capacity. I'm happy to hear my colleague from Vancouver–Little Mountain indicate that we want to involve school children and young people in these activities. I'm sure that's already envisaged by the committee and the people associated with the world's fair.

It's with the greatest pleasure that, at the request of the city of Vancouver, I move second reading of the Vancouver Centennial Celebration Act.

[ Page 8726 ]

Motion approved.

Bill 64, Vancouver Centennial Celebration Act, read a second time and referred to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration at the next sitting of the House after today.

HON. MR. GARDOM: Mr. Speaker, committee on Bill 51.

URBAN TRANSIT AUTHORITY
AMENDMENT ACT, 1982

The House in committee on Bill 51; Mr. Davidson in the chair.

Sections 1 to 3 inclusive approved.

On section 4.

MR. LORIMER: As mentioned in second reading, I want to say that this act is a great improvement over provincial authorities for expropriation powers. To that extent it's a step forward. However, there is a need for one general and well-thought-out act to replace the 30 to 35 sections in other bills dealing with expropriation. A general expropriation act was one of the campaign promises of the Social Credit party in 1975. Some seven years have passed since that time and we still haven't seen it. I would urge the government to start working on that particular piece of legislation.

The other matter I want to deal with is the question of value: true value, actual value or replacement value. It's only fair and fitting that people should be given the replacement value of their expropriated homes or properties. In other words, the innocent bystander shouldn't be prejudiced by the powers of the state to take away their property, without being able to replace that property in some other location. I suggest that the minister look at section 4 and the subsections thereunder to determine whether or not he's talking about replacement value or actual value so that the expropriation tribunals will have a guide when they're determining value.

Sections 4 to 14 inclusive approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Davidson in the chair.

Bill 51, Urban Transit Authority Amendment Act, 1982, reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Strachan in the chair.

ESTIMATES: MINISTRY OF TOURISM

On vote 73: minister's office, $204,003.

HON. MRS. JORDAN: I thought for a moment the vote was going to go through without any of the complimentary comments that I expect to receive, as well as fine suggestions from the hon. members of the opposition, including the second member for Surrey (Mr. Hall).

In opening these estimates, I would like to say that I am very pleased and honoured to take my place in the House for the 1982-83 estimates as government leader of the third-largest industry of British Columbia. It is a very exciting industry, one recognized by our government as a key, but in general a little acknowledged factor in Canada of opportunity and benefits for all British Columbians. These benefits have the broadest base and offer the greatest opportunities for each and every person in our province. These opportunities are more through the industry of tourism today and in the future than through any other industry. The benefits range in major economic importance in a number of ways to assist with the balance of payments, to act as part of the leverage in international negotiating agreements and to in themselves offer an opportunity for international agreements. Capital investments and job opportunities are offering the broadest base for the greatest number of people in our province, whether they are the skilled, the highly professional and academic, the inexperienced person in his first job, or even the handicapped — and for all ages.

We feel that today offers one of the greatest opportunities for an individual person or family to own their own business. If they are willing to work, to plan properly, to learn and exercise responsible and up-to-date management skills, to offer, of course, quality service and product, and have a positive and friendly attitude, they can, even today, Mr. Chairman, in these difficult times, start, purchase and ultimately own their business, large or small.

The industry is also in a position to benefit greatly from our program for economic stabilization and control of escalating government costs. Control of the escalating costs of governments and economic stabilization means that there will be opportunities for doing business on a less costly basis in British Columbia. I might add in all modesty that it is the only tourism industry in Canada that has had a government take into consideration the needs and capabilities of the tourist industry when undertaking overall economic and social planning, and when dealing with the current inflationary situation, with the currently very devastating high interest rates, and when dealing with the spiralling costs of government at all levels — which are being brought under control at our level. We also have taken the tourist industry in this province into consideration when government is competing for those dollars that should be available for the investment level — which is being done so disastrously at the federal level, but not in British Columbia.

Mr. Chairman, at a time when we hear futurists saying that tourism will be the number one industry in the world in the year 2000, and at a time when we hear many politicians, industry people and media people in the rest of Canada, North America and in many other parts of the world really moaning and groaning and talking gloom and doom — talking about falloff downtrends and being despondent — we in the government of British Columbia and in the tourism industry, and even most media people in British Columbia, are

[ Page 8727 ]

very positive. We are still showing strong evidence of growth. We are expanding in education and planning. We are expanding in tourism involvement and concept. We are vigorously marketing. We are continually innovating with confidence and incredible vigour, not only for today but for the future.

I'm pleased to draw to the attention of the House that in 1981 we in British Columbia reached our five-year target of $2 billion in revenue for the tourism industry in the province. Over the next five years, with our program of marketing, government management, philosophy and economic development strategy, and all coordinated with a vigorous, free-enterprise private sector, we will, as we are doing now, see British Columbia's tourism grow. I predict that we will reach the $3.5 billion revenue mark in five years.

However, I would like to point out that we differ from all other areas of the world in tourism, in that while we are positive, we also do not talk, brag or reach hollowly for tourism to be the number one industry on the basis of figures, as does everyone else. Our Premier, the leader of this province, has made it very clear that the values, the quality of life, the investment attitudes, and the benefits of tourism must enrich and be compatible with the aspirations and lifestyle of our own citizens. As I've summed it up so many times before with the public, the cultural people, the recreational people and the industry people, on the bottom line there always must be a place for you and me as citizens in British Columbia. We believe the industry's development must, as one of our objectives, provide more opportunity for our own citizens, whether it's in cost, variety, jobs or investment. Tourism in British Columbia must complement the lifestyle of our own citizens, must add to our citizens' positive experiences and must add to our environment. We find complete cooperation in this area with the industry, I'm so pleased to say. We are being remarkably successful in these objectives in British Columbia, as witness our current advances in capital investment and in jobs — environmentally, culturally and socially through tourism. Though the major increase of revenues to the province — a major dollar contribution to the government's development of social programs, such as those in Education, Health and Human Resources — is there, it is not always as evident to the public as perhaps it should be. But it is certainly very evident in the objectives of our industry that that must be part of the benefit.

Mr. Chairman, we are particularly proud that these major opportunities and benefits are in all parts of this province; certainly they have been in Vancouver and Victoria, but now they are in all of Vancouver Island, from Duncan to Tahsis and from Port Hardy to the Charlottes, and in Stewart, Nelson, the Kootenays, Elkford, Abbotsford, Coquitlam, Gold River, Prince Rupert, Castlegar, Oliver, Salmon Arm, Armstrong, Rossland, Trail, Fernie, Vernon, Duncan, Coquitlam, Cowichan, Courtenay and the Peace River. In short, no community in British Columbia has not benefited during these last few years from the tourism industry.

Mr. Chairman, this success and this great story did not just happen, just as success in so many parameters seldom just happens. The scenery and wilderness — no matter how much we enjoy them — simply are not enough; we have to be able to have people get to them and enjoy them. They have to know about them and they have to have the added generators and facilities to meet the very high visitor expectations that we see in the world today. This unique and dynamic success in tourism that we're experiencing in British Columbia today — and I'm sure the hon. member across the way will agree, through you, Mr. Chairman — is a direct result of the drive, the teamwork, the organization and planning that has gone on.

Firstly, investors — provincial, national and even international — have developed a new attitude toward British Columbia, as a direct result of this province's government and its economic policies, leadership and attitude; thus we have seen the confidence needed for the development we're experiencing now. This has also happened because of the vigour and the cooperation of the private sector of the tourism industry, of the ever-increasing quality of our product and the organization, I would say, and vitality of an independent Tourism ministry playing a major role. All of these factors, Mr. Chairman, have made it happen.

But going back to the ministry itself, I would like to assure the hon. member, my official critic across the hall, that we no longer have the interminable memos saying: "We must reorganize; we must reorganize; we must reorganize"; even the "Dear Ernie" letters are slowing down, because the base of our new ministry is now complete — no more reorganization, just action.

I would think, Mr. Chairman, that this is an opportune time to introduce the staff of the ministry, who are a major part of the new vitality and direction of the government tourism team: Dr. Jim Rae, our deputy minister; Mr. John Currie, our assistant deputy minister of operations; and Mr. Plul — out of his tub — our assistant deputy minister of marketing. Essentially, the four of us comprise the policy team, but in cooperation with the directors and full staff of the ministry itself. We are a small but a very effective ministry, but we feel that each person — be they in the warehouse or be they an accommodation counsellor, an offshore official, a secretary or a director — now has input into our policies, along with the tourism industry and other ministries of the government.

I'm very proud to say in reviewing the structure that our ministry now has an effective finance and personnel section, under the direction of Mr. Bob Saunders, resulting in much more effective budgeting and cost control. We have developed a vigorous and respected research department with planning and policy coordination under the most able direction of Mr. Mick Collins. This vital section — I know it will interest the member — is now becoming well integrated with the industry in other jurisdictions. Recently the research development section has increased and is obtaining an accurate and valuable data base, not — I hasten to assure the House — reinventing the wheel but incorporating much that was available but not available, if I may put it that way: information that was perhaps questionable in its base or unusable because it was so fragmented.

The introduction of computerization and other modern techniques has greatly improved our manpower utilization in the industry and our financial efficiency, and will ultimately, I believe, when the base is complete, see the ministry and the tourism industry of British Columbia together have one of the most complete and effective resource centres in the world. It is all available to the private sector as well as government — but particularly to the private sector, which could not possibly have such a comprehensive and usable tool on their own.

In the area of education — a very vital sector in all industries, but certainly vital in tourism — all of our team are extremely proud of the major strides we have made toward achieving the seven educational objectives I outlined to the

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House two years ago. Under the spirited and able direction of our new director, Mr. Rick Lemon, and with the assistance of Miss Dierdre Lydon, who was with us before, we have moved ahead dramatically, in concert with the industry, the Ministry of Education and the Ministry of Labour. We've totally revitalized and expanded our hospitality program and I'm happy to say we've leapt ahead in hospitality certificate courses; there'll be up to 60 courses in 1981 and 91 courses in 1982, if not more. We expect that well over 3,000 students will be participating this year, including, for the first time, management participation.

We have revitalized and increased our traveller counsellor technique course and have completed the pilot project and carried out through the province the first specialized three-part ski management program. This incorporates both management and front-line personnel. The program is mobile and, I'm pleased to say, financially self-supporting. It was designed in cooperation with the ski industry. Naturally we are happy to say it has been very well received. In our analysis, it was decided that the ministry should carry on with the program, because even though it's self-supporting, we are able to make it more effective and less costly. This program will continue this year, and until such time as it's assessed as not needed. It has also been adapted to small business operations for motel, hotel and restaurant use. We are hopeful that this project will start this September, again mobile, financially self-supporting and, I hasten to assure you, not duplicating.

Along with these and other educational objectives, Dr. George Pedersen, president of Simon Fraser University, and I had the privilege recently of announcing the uniting of Simon Fraser University and Tourism British Columbia to develop a short-term and long-range program for mid- and upper-management tourism people, leading ultimately both to certification and an academic degree in tourism.

Today — and I say this to my critic — in expressing great admiration and respect for Dr. Pedersen and his faculty, I would also advise the House and industry that our program will have an industry, education and government advisory board. That will ensure that these major academic programs have the content, compatibility, sophistication and credibility to have international recognition of both the certificate and degree programs, as well — and ever so importantly — as industry acceptance, so that our graduates receive recognition by job placement and the continued financing that will be necessary for permanency.

Our first program, the foundation completion pilot project, will begin this September under Simon Fraser University's auspices. It will enrol mid- and top-management people who wish to broaden their management, marketing and personnel skills. As an added note, this curriculum is designed so that it can be transferred to other educational centres such as the University of Victoria, the University of British Columbia, regional colleges or the Knowledge Network. It is designed so its content can be expanded and adjusted. For the first time, people working at all levels in our industry in tourism in British Columbia can look forward to advancement opportunities and, should they wish, a real career opportunity in tourism right in British Columbia. Of course, our own citizens and the industry will benefit very much from this, as well as those in the industry.

Our highly successful and modestly named tourism industry Seminar of the Century of last year has been followed through with one-day seminars in various regions of the province, including marketing and market evaluation, tour management, plant operation and promotional interaction. Along with these firsts in Canada, we have started a series of one-day tourism seminars, with municipal and regional district representatives being the first candidates. We were pleased to have representation from nearly every municipality and regional district in the province of British Columbia. It resulted, we feel, in greater municipal or local government awareness of tourism and its opportunities, advantages and needs, and perhaps a better understanding or more awareness of the role of various sectors in the tourism development within the local area, be it the industry itself, the chamber of commerce, the regional tourist association, the cultural or recreational groups, or those who would aspire to the convention business, as well as government itself. We don't feel that money is necessarily the answer. We do feel that knowledge at the local level of government is very important.

Judging by the response to and the follow-through of the seminar, and the fact that we had such excellent attendance, we judge it as being very successful. Also, the appointment by most municipalities of an alderman of tourism with a full information portfolio has started the base for continuity and knowledge development at the local level of government.

A similar well-attended seminar was carried out for our regional associations, staff and coordinators. This program will continue this year for the chamber of commerce people. I'm pleased to say that we have had discussions with the British Columbia Chamber of Commerce, and we are working together to develop mutually beneficial projects and to exchange ideas with the regional tourist associations, which can only augur well for all concerned. We also hope to carry this program to career-oriented teachers throughout the provinces, the advantages of which, I think, are self-explanatory.

Through cooperation with the Ministry of Education, we have made a good start in having tourism incorporated in the basic school curriculum at the elementary and high school levels. Education at all levels, and in most aspects of the industry, is needed for the future. It is the major key to professionalism and pride throughout the industry: for full career opportunities for employees in the industry, both front-line and management; for investment success; for visitor and citizen satisfaction; and for continuous, development of a tourism industry which is aware, competitive, successful and ever compatible with our British Columbia citizens — certainly not just in the short term but in the long term.

With these programs and many others, I have no hesitation in saying that British Columbia will be a tourism force to be reckoned with nationally and internationally — on our terms, with objectives and benefits prescribed by British Columbia as well as for our own citizens.

The visitor service, under our new director Mr. Wayne Carter, with the able help of Miss Gail Carrie, has been reorganized, computerized, greatly expanded and personalized, resulting in marked upgrading and outstanding results in visitor and industry satisfaction.

Our team has accomplished so much in the past two years that it's impossible to discuss every aspect in this short time, but I would be guilty of negligence if I did not address a vital part of our ministry's responsibility — marketing. While I'm sure I would wish to go into greater detail at the request of the opposition, as the estimates move along, in order that the House may be fully informed on this most vital and complex

[ Page 8729 ]

subject, I would like to say that under the very skilled and imaginative direction of our assistant deputy minister of marketing we have made major changes in a number of areas. We have increased cooperation and input from the regional tourist associations and the involved sectors of the industry. We have initiated new and greatly expanded, specialized overall promotions, ranging from diving through winter recreation to spring and fall expansion and activities. We have greatly intensified and broadened our marketing approach and strategies. We now have a fully-developed year-round marketing strategy, which is designed to meet the specific needs of the citizens of our province and our industry, as well as husband most carefully those natural resources that are a vital part of our competitive position in the future. There's no question that marketing will have a major impact on that objective.

We must remind ourselves today, as never before, that tourism is not only showing some sensitivity to the current world economic situation — less, though, than almost any other industry — but it is also a highly competitive and complex industry. We can't afford to sit on our laurels for one single minute. We must expand our directions, we must increase our credibility, we must increase our capability, and we must draw from those parts of the world that we wish to visit. These benefits that are greatest for us in British Columbia must be part of that major objective. This is done through strategic, intensive, appropriate and timely marketing.

I would like to draw to the attention of the House that the tourism industry in British Columbia is very much a free enterprise industry. It has a very healthy spread of small business, ranging from the small kiosk or the European sausage pushcart through to the gift shop.... It has bicycle rentals, horse-drawn carriages, vintage transportation and many new regional transportation companies for sightseeing or freight. There are more traditional concepts of the tourist industry — hotels, motels, eating establishments, sophisticated and atmospheric dining experience, fast-food outlets — than ever before. As of this year more than 10,000 individual businesses and 70,000 individual employees are directly involved in tourism. This does not include the thousands of businesses and jobs that partially rely on the tourist industry as an important factor in the profitability of their business and investment, and in the creation and security of jobs. This has been made very obvious this year when business after business, community after community, from tire shops to clothing stores, banks to repair shops and TV outlets, from Port Alberni to the Kootenays, from Prince Rupert to Osoyoos, are acknowledging to themselves and publicly in such terms as: "If it weren't for the tourist industry...." or "We're counting on the tourist industry...." Even some of the traditional hotels and restaurants are saying more and more that the tourist industry must help pick up the business industry slack. The tourism industry is being acknowledged by all to be a major aid in our economy and job creation this year and for the future.

There is even more tangible evidence than their ledgers and public statements, through our incredibly successful Good Show program. Through that program we are gathering significant evidence by the spread of the nomination awards, be they from dentists, nurses, doctors, retail employees, media people, sports people, from bakers to truck loggers, cultural interest people, none of whom, before our government's aggressive education involvement and Good Show program, were conscious of their opportunities to contribute and benefit from our new style and objectives of tourism. Approximately 98 percent of these free enterprise businesses are individually British Columbia–owned. I would suggest that less than 2 percent would be what we might call designated chains or major corporate ownership; and they, too, in part, are British Columbia–owned. It is a competitive, imaginative, hardworking industry which is contributing much to British Columbia and basically doing very well on its own.

These are just some of the points of the major part of this ministry's mandate, to work as a stimulant, a catalyst, a resource centre, an instrument for responsible achievement, an umbrella promoter of British Columbia, and to undertake all of these functions in conjunction with the great industry itself, and the great assets of our province, whether it's our climate, our natural assets such as the water and the mountains, our openness, the cultural mosaic of our province, the recreational talents, or just the individual personality and friendliness of our citizens — a team of which Tourism British Columbia, I, as minister, and our government are very pleased to be part, all with the objective of providing the necessary revenues for our province and its social accomplishments, and for benefits for our citizens, as I mentioned, very much in keeping with our own cultural desires and social as well as economic aspirations.

I'm sure there are other questions that will arise, and I look forward to hearing the comments, plans and development suggestions from the opposition.

MR. HALL: I could find little to disagree with in the minister's remarks made to the committee. Certainly the aims and objectives that she has outlined for us are shared by everybody who has examined this industry in any detail whatsoever. Even excusing the minister — as we must do, for this is an important day when one's estimates come up — for some hyperbole, we would all agree with her and wish her well in supervising the government's activities in what is currently the third-largest industry in British Columbia, but likely to be this year better than third — sadly, in some ways, better than third because of our economic misfortunes in our natural resource industries. The state of metalliferous and non-metalliferous mining and of our forest industry may well mean that this minister is supervising the biggest ministry of a provincial effort this year. It's a very important portfolio that she has, and one which we must all do our level best to encourage and to support.

Having said that, I feel it incumbent upon me to suggest to the minister that one of the ways of supporting it is not simply to supervise it — to be the figurehead — but to actively engage, as I know she can do, in reacting to the crisis and meeting the problems head on and not to be reluctant at all to meet with people and not to be reluctant at all — I can t imagine why she should be — to share time with anybody representing the industry in any way, shape or form, and if necessary to give them a piece of her mind and her opinions. I don't say that to the minister in any critical way, but in a kindly way. I think she can engender some enthusiasm on behalf of her own ministry. I have some disagreements with the minister. I think we all have. I think she's far too sensitive at times about certain aspects of her ministry, but we'll deal with that as we go along.

Let me say by way of introduction that by coincidence I have just received a letter from the Community Business and

[ Page 8730 ]

Professional Association of Canada, Victoria Drive, Vancouver. They talk about a provincial program of upgrading tourist facilities, and they say:

"It's the only industry in B.C. that is safe and has a predictable future. With today's dollar on the way to 65 cents" — I think this writer is perhaps a little pessimistic, but who knows — "this can only make this province more attractive to outsiders. The people who made the Royal Hudson, the Marguerite and Whistler cannot be effectively criticized. A second Victoria-to-Vancouver Marguerite tour vessel? Another Royal Hudson to Revelstoke? Every ski resort and every fishing paradise guaranteed a survival cushion from this government.

"The wood and coal, when it's gone, leaves a nasty hole. Our fishing fleet is finished, but instead of draggers vacuuming everything, we could convert some of the smaller boats to a subsidized tourist charter fleet. World fishermen pay over $500 per fish, and they leave telling everyone how wonderful it was."

I don't agree with some of the things in this letter, but here's somebody who is conscientiously looking toward this industry as one of the major ways in which we can meet the current economic downturn. It's an interesting proposal from this Community Business and Professional Association. I received it just today as the Tourism estimates came forward. What we must begin with is a general review of the estimates. We only have three votes in front of us. That's by kindness of the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Curtis), who's slowly but surely reducing the number of times we can get up and talk in the House. Eventually we'll just have vote 1, which is our wages, and Crown corporations. The Minister of Finance is exasperated with me as he leaves the House. If the number of votes is to be reduced, and that may well be, then the details within those votes must be expanded. This is one of the problems. When I was last responsible for these estimates there were six votes, an exact doubling of the number of votes in front of us now. But there was far more detail in each vote, so some comparisons now are that much harder to get.

In the general review of these estimates with only three votes there appears to have been some restraint placed on the minister here. The government is naturally taking credit. When the Minister of Finance outlined his budget on April 5, he said that he kept the totals down to within certain percentage figures. He showed the totals, and so on. Certainly if you examine this year's total in this ministry, we are talking about an apparent reduction from $14.78 million to $13.68 million. In this time of belt tightening, it would appear that the minister has done a good job.

But the fact of the matter is that when you look at it, that's not what has happened at all. I don't know whether the minister is juggling over there, or whether it's the Minister of Finance. That $2.3 million of an artificial reduction has been achieved by netting out the Beautiful B.C. magazine operation. Last year that particular budget item showed approximately $3 million in our estimates. This year it's netted out at $645,000. So you get, in effect, a smaller expenditure total. Naturally, of course, you have shown something on the other side of the ledger. But when you look at the expenditure item, you have this artificial reduction. The total, if we compared like with like, would have been $15.9 million or $16 million as opposed to $14.78 million last year. That's not quite the restraint one was led to believe if you listened to the Minister of Finance on April 5.

The information we were given was not quite correct. We've got this differing form of bookkeeping on the right-hand side of the ledger, compared to that which we are examining on the left-hand side. I don't hold the minister responsible for that; I just want to tell her that it's not gone unnoticed, that she really is supervising a slight increase in her budget.

Talking of information, we notice also that there is a threefold increase in information services, not necessarily just about tourism, but about the ministry. That may be required. However, it's not apparent that it is about programs; it appears to be about the ministry itself. Ministry newsletters, ministry speeches, ministry reports, etc. — a threefold increase in that, on top of an advertising increase of three-quarters of a million dollars. That does appear to be somewhat rich, and again does not quite show the restraint we were talking about before.

That's a general review of the estimates in terms of the dollars and cents. Turning now to the specifics of her administration — and I haven't left the general subject of tourism; I'll return to that — in January of this year we had the example which we raised in question period about staff. I want to deal with this very quickly and get it out of the way. We had the advertisement for the information officer, which the minister advised the House was withdrawn. How is the minister doing for staff, firstly in her own executive suite? In April, I believe, two key people left — Mr. Dykes and Miss Francine Mailbot — and there now are seven people including yourself in the executive suite. I wonder if you could list those for us in your response. Returning to the question of the information officer and now making it plural, could you tell us how many information officers there are and in which of the various services — namely the operation services, marketing services, etc. — the information officers are housed, or are paid and watered, as it were.

In May the minister issued an excellent publication entitled "Travel Guide for the Disabled." I want to congratulate the minister for that. She issued a press release on May 20. These dates on the top right-hand corner.... I don't understand a four-figure date — 16-20-05-82. There must be a code there somewhere. I thought there was only a day, a month and a year. You've got an extra set of figures in there somewhere. I presume it's May 20, but it may be the sixteenth press release you put out that day. Thereby hangs a tale. Anyway, you put out this press release, and I was particularly pleased with the "Travel Guide for the Disabled." It was timely, and followed up from last year's efforts. I took the opportunity to send it to the disabled group in Surrey–White Rock, called the Surrey Access For All Committee, who've now sent me a note. I have not had an opportunity to speak to you about this, as the note only came last week when I was in the middle of the public accounts conference. They've sent me a 20- or 30-point analysis of it, and asked if they can meet with you or your staff and go over this travel guide, as they feel very encouraged by its publication and feel that it could be even better. So again I congratulate the ministry on that and point out that it does, however, need some fine-tuning.

[Mr. Davidson in the chair.]

[ Page 8731 ]

My own district of Surrey–White Rock was recently visited by the Royal Hudson, about which I know a little, having been the minister at the time when the Royal Hudson started off. I did make the suggestion to the minister that maybe White Rock could be considered as the next point of destination of that locomotive at some time when we either get another one or need a change of service. The minister was good enough to respond to me that they're going to have a look at that. Is there any updating on that interesting proposal regarding putting the Royal Hudson on the tracks to White Rock? I'm not too sure whether the minister has been as far as White Rock on the locomotive. It has been down there twice. I know she wasn't on it the day that White Rock was 25 years old, but I think she might have been on it earlier when it went to Seattle. That would be an interesting tourist promotion.

I've got two complaints about literature. A large company in Vancouver called Grantree wants travel literature to give to their customers in a welcoming package. They haven't gotten anywhere with requests to your ministry. Is there any reason why, when the cost of printing is really the cost of the first one...? Anybody in politics knows that the cost of an election leaflet is really the cost of the first one; the cost of the ten thousandth one is minimal compared to the cost of the first produced. Considering that we do such a lot of advertising, why was the ministry reluctant to provide a company that's dealing with 20,000 new residents per year with material that would be useful for newcomers to the province? This particular company has had responses from junior personnel in Tourism B.C., but apparently not from anybody at a high level in the ministry.

[Mr. Strachan in the chair.]

Similarly, you had a letter from a family who were going to visit Vancouver Island. They wrote to 800 Robson Street requesting a map of Vancouver Island, ferry schedules, fees, accommodation guide, a list of Vancouver Island tourist attractions and a list of summer events on Vancouver Island, and gave information about themselves: a family of four, etc. They received back a ferry schedule, the B.C. Accommodation Guide, a greater Vancouver map and a list of attractions in greater Vancouver. That is probably what is euphemistically called a clerical error. It seems to me that's one of the most important things we do. Is there a better way to handle that and check responses, other than having the same person who looks after the letter look after the collection of the material? I've found in my experience in industry that if the filling of the order is done by the same person who answers the letter, the same mistake is continued. But if the job is split into two — I don't mean make-work, but a different system to handle it — the mistakes are often caught.

A question about the minister's own responsibilities. We constantly get news releases from the government of Canada and the province of British Columbia about TIDSA; but I never see the minister involved in this important work. On the one occasion when the Minister of Industry and Small Business Development (Hon. Mr. Phillips) was not there, the Minister of Environment (Hon. Mr. Rogers) was present; on another occasion it was the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Hewitt). Could the minister explain why you're not putting the full force of your ministry into this general discussion on the subsidiary agreement? That's a genuine request for information.

A couple of questions about staff and operations services. I think you gave me the name of a Mr. McFarlane in policy development and planning. I wonder if you would explain who the four staff members are in policy development and planning. I have their salary breakdown. Could you confirm that this is where the research goes on?

The work started by my deputy, who continued as deputy for the first member for Vancouver–Little Mountain when she became minister, impressed upon all of us the need for research. During 1972-75, at least six major pieces of research were done, the beginnings of a research department, and a young man by the name of Hall employed — no relative, I hasten to add. I understand he is no longer with the ministry, but I don't really know if he is or not. I don't think he is. From those early beginnings and the outside research jobs that were done by Rex Werts and others, there have obviously come the strategies that you referred to in your opening remarks. Could you satisfy me that this is where the work is going on in vote 74, the operations services vote, and in policy development and planning? Who is in charge of it?

Turning back to the more general, as I said in my opening remarks in supporting your general attitude and statement, the recent study for Canada indicates that tourism is responsible for 10 percent of the labour force in Canada. That is a million jobs, of which we will get more than our fair share because we have more than our fair share of natural and, hopefully, man-made beauties.

That sort of puts tourism into perspective as far as this province is concerned. That study by Laventhol and Horwath, which monitored the lodging and food service industry in North America, showed that continues as a major force in Canada's economy in 1981. We have your figures for 1981, as produced in your speeches and press releases. Preliminary estimates indicate what is happening in Canada, and the figures are here.

We had your figures at the close of 1981, and your New Year's message indicated more of the same, which I thought was a little optimistic. I thought perhaps you had cracked your Perrier water 12 hours too soon. Frankly, all of us were quietly hoping that the clouds on the horizon were not really forming up and that they wouldn't arrive. Of course, now we all know that they have arrived, although not necessarily yet in tourism. That's the question I'm going to ask you. Certainly everywhere else they appear to be not only on the horizon but almost down our throats, and now they may have arrived in tourism.

First of all, how are the figures that you were forecasting on New Year's Eve or New Year's Day holding up? How do last year's averages...? In the ministry's report, which you broke down for us, how much was spent on transportation? How much was spent on restaurants and food outlets? How much was spent on accommodation? How is that holding up to date? In March, May and now in July we appear to have a bad case of space, as the Province says, and the tourist industry is bracing for a drop in some hotel accommodation space. How are we holding up? Are the predictions holding up? What are the real facts? Perhaps more importantly, how are you and how is your ministry reacting to it? Are you wedded to an immutable fixed-in-space advertising program that you can't change, or can you responsibly react with some elasticity, some alertness and some brightness? Can you react into a market or away from a market? If there is any softness at all, can you get into that kind of situation now before too much more time has gone?

[ Page 8732 ]

I think that really sums up....

Interjection.

MR. HALL: You've not been here all morning; just listen and you'll learn something. You represent a riding that's absolutely dependent on tourism.

Lastly, and then I'll let the minister have a chance to respond, coming as I do many years ago from a country where bed and breakfast was a way of life in the summer when you went on holiday, I wonder if the minister can tell me if she's.... I don't think I can ask if she's encouraging other cabinet ministers to take action, but certainly there appear to be some problems with the selling of the catalogues, the promotion of the whole bed-and-breakfast proposal. I know, for instance, that the very fine booklet that some bed-and-breakfast people put out is not sold on the ferries. I don't know why. It's a first-class publication, better than many on the ferries, and I wonder if you could perhaps just skirt around that problem without necessarily offending the rules of the House.

HON. MRS. JORDAN: I couldn't help but respond to your comments by also thanking you, as a member of this House, for many of the very helpful suggestions that you have given our industry, our ministry and me during this past two years. You did mention the handicapped travel directory of which we are, I believe, rightly proud, but which benefited very much from your direct scrutiny of our questionnaire and input, and we appreciate that.

Just to answer your question in that area, I'd be very pleased to meet with the people you suggest if you could give me their names, and we'll work out a mutually convenient time for everyone concerned, yourself as well if you would wish to come. As you know, it was a first in Canada. It is a start. I believe the general reaction on the whole is that it was a very good start, but we are ever mindful of and appreciate your suggestion that we must monitor things very carefully and be prepared to upgrade. I give you my assurance on that.

Going back to the budget, perhaps I could answer your questions very briefly by suggesting that Beautiful British Columbia magazine is a new edition in its present form. I'm quite pleased about that, as minister. I feel that it will help us keep up the standard of the magazine. As you know, it has been greatly revitalized. From the reaction we're getting for the better, it is also one of the few lure pieces anywhere in the world.... It is a very effective invitation to over 4,000 people from all parts of the world; it has gained a reputation of its own as a print piece as well as being basically self-supporting financially, and yet still very competitive. We think by having it opened for your scrutiny you'll have a better idea what we're doing with it in the financial area as well as in the content. I hope the adjustments and revitalization of the magazine meet with your approval.

In terms of our budget, when we have the British Columbia Buildings Corporation's adjustments, we have a lift of approximately 8 percent in our actual spending capability over next year. We feel that we've exercised many cost efficiencies, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, through the reorganization of the ministry and, I think it very fair to say, through the very capable people we have been able to attract to the ministry. We are an extremely small ministry, and in overall staff you'll notice our number has not increased significantly at all. For a while we did have, in reorganizing the ministry, the opportunity to have people move on to positions that were more suitable and that offered them a greater career opportunity, as well as to see advancement in the ministry, where the capability was, and to have new people join us. Again I would have to say how pleased we are with the dedication and the talents that these new people have brought to the ministry, along with that of our existing staff, and the fact that many people who have moved ahead have proved to be a very valuable asset to the ministry.

We gauge our dollar value on the effectiveness of the job we're doing, and I appreciate your comments about the cost efficiencies that we are trying to exercise. In many areas in the reorganization we were able to get much better value for the dollar and to be much more effective.

In the print area, to which you referred, we have increased our production; we also have reorganized that, and we've reorganized our lure pieces. We have another all-encompassing piece — I think we have a copy here; I believe the member has one — called The Traveler's Handbook, which we feel may be a more effective lure piece. It may be more convenient to handle and has the opportunity of providing us with even greater exposure, but with less costs for mailing.

In terms of the concern you have from the individual that didn't receive the service they should have from our information centre, I would hope that we could follow that through. Generally that has been made much more efficient through some computerization and a more efficient system. Mr. Plul, our assistant deputy minister, has just returned from a marketing promotion as well as an assessment of the whole west coast, and was very pleased to bring back to us the information that our reputation is very strong in many parts of North America as for our prompt replies. But that doesn't mean to say that we can't improve and that we may not have specific instances, and if the member could share that with me later on a confidential basis, we also have a system of follow-through which I think will answer your needs as well as that person's need.

Regarding the information people, there must be an understanding. We only have three in that area; that is traditional for the ministry. There are other names which fall into that classification within the budget but they have many other duties. In our information centre we have Mr. Pires, Miss Coull and Mr. McGill from Beautiful British Columbia magazine; they are responsible for brochures, handbooks, background information, tourist articles for publication and travel tips. They oversee all printed material and are responsible for press releases.

Regarding the Royal Hudson and the very helpful suggestions from the member — both in writing, which I appreciated, as well as in discussion this morning — we are very proud of the Royal Hudson. It is used very much as a lure piece to the province; it's a saleable commodity, in a sense. We have worked very hard in the village of Squamish to encourage them, and we have been pleased with their response. If you've been on the trip, you may know that they've greatly revitalized their community and the activities and services offered people during the hour-and-a-half layover.

Regarding the expansion to White Rock, I wasn't on the trip mentioned by the member; I understand he was a great public relations person for Tourism, along with our own member, and we appreciate it. We are exploring the feasibility of it. At this time of fiscal restraint, I suspect that there might be some problems. But we are looking at the potential

[ Page 8733 ]

market, the economic implications of such an action in terms of cost and return — tangible evidence of marketing opportunities that would have a spinoff effect.

The Grantree situation. Mr. Member, as I understand it, this is a training company. They only train travel counsellors. It has been the policy to distribute through organized outlets, not through other areas. Also, they would be in competition with the chamber of commerce. I believe we responded to them — I don't have the letter here — outlining this to them.

TIDSA, as you know, Mr. Member, has done many good things for British Columbia. I think it has, by and large, been a very sound investment of taxpayers' dollars. I know the member knows the spinoff effect as well as I do, both in marketing capability and plant.

Believe it or not, I'm not always, even with my size and high profile in this ministry, as visible as some people would like to see. We are as a ministry, and I am as a minister, very much involved in policy decisions relating to federal agreements. You can be assured that any opportunities to relate to other governments which are of benefit to British Columbia and have been carefully examined will be followed through on.

We do have sound representation on the TIDSA management committee. Mr. Currie sits there, as well as Mr. White. It plugs into Mr. Collins and the policy development section of our ministry. We are able to more effectively respond to the objectives of TIDSA, but apply those more effectively to the needs of our industry in British Columbia. It has also enabled us to offer more personal advice and have more personal discussions with people who applied to TIDSA and might not have been successful, but in fact had a good operation that needed to be scaled down and be more effectively designed in terms of its economic reality. I hope you'll be pleased to learn that that whole area has been strengthened.

In policy development we have a total of four people. Mr. Collins, the director and a very highly qualified gentleman, comes to us through other governments — Parks Canada — and he was on the Okanagan Basin study and has worked in parks in British Columbia. He has a very broad base. He is also very knowledgeable in the computer and statistics area. Mr. Doug White is with us. He was moved up to that position. Mrs. Thomas and a secretary are also with us. Their duties are very widespread. They are not only involved in working more closely with TIDSA and studying the development of tourism in British Columbia, but they're also very much a part of the gathering of a very sound data base for negotiations with the federal government, to see if we can develop in Canada a traditional base that's accepted by all. They do TIDSA background research, research in terms of the industry. They have a lot of discussions — on behalf of the rest of us or in conjunction with the rest of us — with the private sector. Certainly this new development in the ministry is showing its importance by the response of the industry to use it.

We also liaise with the federal government CGOT, with major airlines and industries in other parts of the world, so that we'll be able to develop a much stronger data base, whether it be in the trade and convention area for communities, whether it's in tourism, airlines and some of the major thrusts that we have to develop in British Columbia. I assure the member that there is very little think-tanking in an outer cosmos going on there; it's all very practical.

We also are looking at many of the advances in technology. I'm sure the House is aware that there is a proliferation of possible technological advantages for us from the use in information centres. My concern has been not to see us, as a government, involved in the first reaction. We're trying to assess what is available — and this is with the industry — and how effective they can be. What type of negotiations do we ultimately go into with industry so that you won't find a region undertaking a system that's not compatible with anyone else or which, in fact, is not capable of being upgraded at minimum cost? So when we move, which I imagine will be very shortly, to the audiovisual benefits — whether it's on the ferries or in the information centres — that can be available to enhance the visitor's opportunities for visit information as well as our promotional aspects at all levels, we'll be in concert, we will be cost-effective and we will have a guarantee that upgrading can take place with minimum cost.

Mr. Hall left the ministry before I became minister and is acting as a private consultant. I believe he has had some contracts from TIDSA. I must correct myself, Mr. Member; Grantree, I understand, is a furniture company, not a training company.

MR. HALL: Trading.

HON. MRS. JORDAN: Yes. In order to dispense the very costly information that comes from the ministry, we've tried to stay with trained staff and trained outlets, even our liquor stores and drugstores. Many people would like to dispense the information, but we don't feel that the proper background, explanation and sales package goes with it; so we try to work with the associations and the appropriate people.

Bed and breakfast. I think this is going to open a very long dialogue that we don't have time for this morning. It has been very successful, as you said, in many countries, and is very successful in some parts of eastern Canada. I think it's very much a reflection of the character of those areas. There is some developing in British Columbia. They're of a very high quality. We do have our family farm program, which our ministry will be assuming in cooperation with Agriculture very shortly.

One of the problems is the bylaws and standards in British Columbia in terms of health, facilities and fire safety. They are such that they could make bed and breakfast very costly, so it would perhaps only be competitive on the basis of the unique experience that it could offer. This is being looked at now by a number of communities and sectors to see what might be brought into position. The other part is the cost of inspecting and maintaining the standards of a major bed-and-breakfast program if it did come into force. This could be far more costly than the actual benefits from the program.

We are watching very carefully. We're trying to offer what assistance we can. But we're letting the marketplace have free flow, as I think we should, to see what emerges. I believe it's fair to say, and I think the member would agree with me from the minister's point of view: if it emerges in British Columbia it will probably be most successful in its unique opportunities. We want to be careful that there's every opportunity for people of all economic spheres to enjoy a vacation in British Columbia. But we must also remember that our competitiveness for the future will require a lot of credibility.

As the member knows, many countries have very stringent regulations. In Germany, for example, if a tour operator sells a tour package, if the facilities and the experience are not up to par, then that tour operator not only pays a massive fine

[ Page 8734 ]

but is subject to going to jail. For our future successes, which are compatible with the lifestyle of our citizens, it's very important that that standard be maintained.

Optimism in the industry. I guess in my lifetime I've been faulted for being optimistic, but I still do feel very optimistic. I think one of the things we're seeing — we're trying to monitor it now — is, as you'll notice from the latest "Industrial and Commercial Expansion in B.C." publication from the Ministry of Industry and Small Business Development, there has been a major increase in restaurants and accommodation in British Columbia. We have to examine whether that's having a levelling effect which is exceeding the increased market.

One of the other factors is that some of our major operations have probably been channelling their interest in business and marketing into exclusive areas like business travel. Of course, those are often the higher-priced hotels. We are seeing them having some impact — naturally, as they would — from business travel. The corporations themselves are restricting expense accounts and travel just as, I suppose, everyone else is. What I've been trying to do is encourage them to broaden their base. We really shouldn't confuse a limited market approach and probably far too narrow base for today's world with the tourism industry itself, and many of those operations are now calling on tourism per se as part of their buffer. We hope that that response is there. We feel it will be.

It's very difficult to really assess what's happening. If one talks in the Okanagan, they're talking about a major increase. Three months ago they said that their units were 40 percent booked for the summer at that time, which was unheard of. The Kootenays appear to be having a very up year. There are other areas of the province that are the same, and then you find one or two units that are down.

In Victoria there are some people saying they're down, but as you know, there's a major increase in rooms here. I've talked to a number of restaurants and they have told me that some are up about 4 to 5 percent at this time in volume of business, not dollars. So it's a very interesting situation, and I don't really feel I can give you a full picture at this time, although our reading would show that our Japanese market, which is very much a cultivated marketed area, is holding extremely well, if not increasing.

The European market has responded very well to our trade promotion and follow-up and is increasing. The American market is hard to define at the moment. What we are seeing is that those regions who are really doing their homework and putting together excellent presentations and full strategy, as we are doing as a province now, are showing great increases. I would cite the Kootenays as one of those. Also, their plant and experience package is very good and we have to recognize that the visitor today is wasting that package and experience.

I don't want to delay the member, but I also want to answer his questions fully. If I haven't answered anything, perhaps the member would bring it to my attention.

MR. HALL: The minister has answered all my questions, save the one about her own staff, and she can file that with me anytime at all. I thank the minister for the full answers, and I think I can ask the subsidiary questions under the various subsidiary votes, although I know there are only two of them.

Vote 73 approved.

On vote 74: operations services, $5,269,233.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if this is a good time for us to adjourn.

HON. MR. McCLELLAND: No.

MS. BROWN: You don't want to move the committee rise, is that it?

HON. MR. WATERLAND: We've got work to do.

HON. MRS. JORDAN: If the member is to continue, I'll try and be as brief as possible in my answers.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If the member wishes to make a motion, the committee will hear it, but the motion would have to be made.

MS. BROWN: I move that the committee rise, report resolution and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

The committee, having reported a resolution, was granted leave to sit again.

Hon. Mr. McClelland moved adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 11:57 a.m.

[ Page 8735 ]

Appendix

WRITTEN ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS

52 Ms. Brown asked the Hon. the Minister of Human Resources the following questions:

Re: Day Care—

1. How many persons received a subsidy from the Government?

2. What is the average amount of the subsidy paid each month?

3. What are the numbers, by month, for 1980, 1981 and to date in 1982 for (a) licensed family day care, (b) unlicensed family day care, (c) group day care (d) in-home day care, (e) nursery school day care, (f) out-of-school day care and (g) special needs day care?

The Hon. the Minister of Human Resources stated that, in her opinion, the reply should be in the form of a Return and that she had no objection to laying such Return upon the table of the House, and thereupon presented such Return.