[ Page 5699 ]

CONTENTS

Routine proceedings

Community Resources Boards Amendment Act, 1977 (Bill 65) . Second reading.

Ms. Brown –– 5699

The House met at 8 p.m.

Orders of the day.

HON. G.B. GARDOM (Attorney-General): Judging by the flora and the fauna that are present in the House tonight, Mr. Speaker, I take it that the hon. members are ready to debate Bill 65.

COMMUNITY RESOURCES BOARDS

AMENDMENT ACT, 1977

(continued)

MS. R. BROWN (Vancouver-Burrard): I think what we need is a new ruling that says I'm allowed to sit through the applause. I could really use those extra two minutes.

HON. MR. GARDOM: You wouldn't be sitting for long.

MS. BROWN: Oh, that's not nice, for someone who has protested his love for me at great length on many occasions. It would be out of order, wouldn't it, Mr. Speaker, under discussion of Bill 65?

HON. MR. GARDOM: That's never out of order.

MS. BROWN: Debating Bill 65, 1 received a couple more cables this afternoon at 6 o'clock that I would like to share with you. I seem to be sharing a lot of things with you these days, and certainly in debating this I'd like to share this with you. It says: "All 25 at the Outreach Alternative School think you're fantastic. Keep talking."

HON. MR. GARDOM: Signed, "Mother."

MS. BROWN: They've all signed their names That's interesting because I'm going to be talking tonight about the Outreach Alternative School. You know, I'm really upset if you believe that the things that I've been saying have not been important. I may have been addressing myself to the Speaker, but I've been talking to you.

HON. W.N. VANDER ZALM (Minister of Human Resources): Too bad you're upset about it.

MS. BROWN: Yes, so I hope you've heard something.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Not very much.

MS. BROWN: You haven't?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Not a thing yet.

MS. BROWN: Well, the member for Prince Rupert (Mr. Lea) was the one who first described you as just another pretty face. I said that I didn't think you were, but anyway. . .

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Well, that's nasty. I like the member for Prince Rupert.

MS. BROWN: It bothers me to think that you just might be.

MR. SPEAKER: Shall we get back to Bill 65, hon. member?

MS. BROWN: Yes. There was a cable from the Westside group home. It says:

DEAR ROSEMARY: THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THANK YOU. THAN K YOU. THAN K YOU. THAN K YOU. THAN K YOU.

Sincerely, Westside Group Home Programme, Vancouver Resources Board.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Are they paying for that by the word? That'll be a charge against the programme - by the word, yet.

MS. BROWN: Something else I received at supper time, Mr. Speaker, that I want to share with you is this poem written by someone who was sitting in the gallery. It's dedicated to the Minister of Human Resources. It says:

Kill Bill 65.
Let people young, old and sick live and enjoy life. Kill Bill 65.
Do not make a political gimmick of poverty and human need.
Kill Bill 65.
Life is a birthday of everyone;
You can't take it in your hands.
Kill Bill 65.
Show compassion, have heart, join hands with humanity.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: I didn't know you were a poet, Dave.

MS. BROWN: It's not my poem, and I would be very willing to table it, Mr. Speaker, in the

[ Page 5700 ]

handwriting of the elderly lady who wrote it, because I think it is the kind of material that the minister should have. I'd like permission to table this.

MR. SPEAKER: Not while you're still on your feet, hon. member. There'll be a time for tabling documents, but this is not it.

MS. BROWN: Oh. Well, is there any time limit? I mean, if it takes two weeks or three weeks, can I still table it? After adjournment? Okay. In the meantime, I think maybe the minister should avail himself of the Blues and read them, because it's a very timely poem.

Mr. Speaker, when we had that very necessary supper break - which the members of the government really seem to have enjoyed - I was discussing the native Indian programme which is sponsored and subsidized by the Vancouver Resources Board. Since last September, Mr. Speaker, the native Indian youth worker - whether the Minister of Mines and Petroleum Resources (Hon. Mr. Chabot) cares or not - has been part of the youth service team, coordinated by the youth services co-ordinator, Kevin Tishaw. This has aided in establishing and expanding the programme in the community. As part of the team, the worker has received referrals of youth who could benefit from the programme and become a more integral part of the delivery of services in the community. Since October, five youths have been referred through this channel, and also through the team the worker has been able to offer support to other community workers and their programmes and assistance in integrating native youth into these programmes.

Of course, the native problem is one that is not really specific to Vancouver, and a number of backbenchers who are talking and laughing and enjoying themselves really should be addressing themselves to this issue, much more so than the people of Vancouver. But they are not. However, to Strathcona.

In this first year of operation, a socio-recreational programme for native Indian youth in the Strathcona area was established and well received by the native community. In addition, the groundwork was laid, through individual contact with native women, to provide group services to native women of a self-help nature.

MS. K.E. SANFORD (Comox): Mr. Speaker, there is so much talking coming from those government benches that it makes it very difficult for the speaker to concentrate on her speech. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if you might not call them to order.

MR. SPEAKER: I will exercise that prerogative when I have determined that there is too much interference from whatever quarter it comes from.

Will the hon. members please allow the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard to proceed?

HON. J.R. CHABOT (Minister of Mines and Petroleum Resources.): You better listen. You'll be taking orders next year.

MS. BROWN: Was that a threat?

HON. MR. CHABOT: He will be taking orders from you next year.

MS. BROWN: Go buy a suit in Alberta.

Mr. Speaker, the second goal outlined by the programme was to assist in the development of a positive native identity. This, of course, is very important. Certainly to people who are members of a minority group, the sense of identity is a very crucial thing. I think it says something for the Vancouver Resources Board that they recognized that.

We feel most fortunate to have been able to employ Louise Hill, a native Indian with a social work background, able to work most effectively with all ages of native people. Native youth and women have commented on how important and satisfying it is to them to have a native worker, a person to whom they can relate easily and identify with positively as a native Indian. As I said, Mr. Speaker, before going into this discussion, one of the reasons that it is getting priority attention from me in this debate was the comment made by the parliamentarian in Ottawa who is visiting our country who remarked upon the fact that having been here for a number of days he still had not had the opportunity to meet a native Indian.

I want to say that if the Vancouver Resources Board had been responsible for that programme, that would certainly not have been the case. It says that the children are more open and communicative about their lives to someone who understands and who is from their own culture. In the small group programmes the youths have been involved in doing native crafts and cooking, listening to the legends, seeing movies on native subjects and playing native games. I think the culture of the indigenous people of Canada is such a rich one and such a rewarding one that it enhances the lives of everyone who comes in touch with it. It's amazing that we have not made it our business to avail ourselves of it more often. Certainly the Vancouver Resources Board cannot be accused of that, and certainly not Strathcona community resources board.

It says:

"The children in the summer programme were involved in a three-part workshop given by Sally Werner, Museum of Anthropology, on native Indian games and historical lifestyle. The native-oriented activities not only helped

[ Page 5701 ]

to increase knowledge, pride and interest in their shared heritage, but also provided a chance for the children to talk to each other about being native."

This is important because I think one of the things that makes Canada so rich and wealthy is the fact that people of different cultures who live here are allowed to be proud of their culture and share it with other people, and are not asked to submerge it in some kind of melting pot idea. Certainly the Vancouver Resources Board took that into account, and certainly the Strathcona project through the employment of a native worker put that kind of philosophy into practice.

During the summer programme, Mr. Speaker, the native children hosted the children involved in the summer programme provided by the Immigrant Service Centre and taught them native crafts, cooking and games. That's really exciting because what we have there are Canadians of every culture coming together while they are still young; the immigrant people from Greece and Italy and the Asian countries and the Caribbean countries and the African countries, Europe, Scotland, Ireland and Wales coming together with the indigenous people, the native children of Canada, and being taught, while they are still young, the crafts and the games and the cooking. This can't help but ensure that the kinds of bigotry that we have to live with in our society as adults will hopefully be modified by the time they become adults. And the fact that this programme is going to die when that minister wipes out the resources board should be cause of alarm and regret to all of us.

In any event, the report goes on to say that this helped greatly in their positive feelings about being native and what they could offer to other cultural groups, and that's really exciting. "The younger children express readily to parents and friends that their group at the Pender YWCA is for Indians."

If no one has ever visited the Pender they should, because that really is the most unique of all YWCAs. As you know, it's in the heart of what we euphemistically refer to as "Chinatown" but it makes itself available to people of all races and all cultures. The Indian people have decided that the Pender YWCA is their Y. They make the decision if a friend from another culture or another background can join them, and many of their past experiences have been the opposite. Other children decided for themselves that they wanted to join and to be a part of these groups.

"It is the feeling of the native worker and other youth workers in the community that past refusals were probably based, at least in part; on the fact that some native children did not possess the necessary social skills or the self-confidence needed to allow them to fully participate in these groups in an acceptable manner. The approach of providing groups especially for native children is seen by the worker as being of great importance. This approach provides the children and youth experiencing difficulty in this area with the opportunity to learn more about group participation in a non-threatening environment where fear of rejection and further damage to self-esteem can be minimized."

In fact, you don't have to be a social worker to realize that if you solve the problem of self-esteem while they're children, you won't have to deal with it when they're adults. If somehow the message gets across to a child that he is a creature of worth, that you have value and you are important, you don't have to deal with an adult bent on self-destruction, an adult who will accept the minister's statement that they're a bum or shiftless, and try to drown that image of themselves in alcohol. That's what the Strathcona project does. It is what we call in social work "front-end financing."

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Those are your words, Rosemary.

MS. BROWN: You don't believe that?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Those are your words.

MS. BROWN: You don't believe that if you deal with a person's image of themself '-hen they're a child, you won't have to deal with it when they're an adult?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: You're calling them bums.

MS. BROWN: You don't believe that? What are this man's criteria for being made Minister of Human Resources? How did the Premier decide to make him Minister of Human Resources? What are his credentials?

MR. SPEAKER: And now back to Bill 26, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: I'm not debating Bill 26; I'm debating Bill 65.

MR. SPEAKER: That's correct, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: Thank you.

MR. W.S. KING (Revelstoke-Slocan): It's either him or Attila the Hun.

[ Page 5702 ]

MS. BROWN: Well, that certainly is not much choice between the fire and the frying pan, is it?

I didn't think there was anybody in the world that would still question that, Mr. Speaker. Here I find the Minister of Human Resources....

Interjections.

MS. BROWN: Well, I guess it's better to have him question it than sleeping all the way through it.

I Anyway, Mr. Speaker, it is the feeling of the native worker and other youth workers in the community.... Ta dum, ta dum, ta dum - I dealt with that.

HON. MR. CHABOT: How do you spell that for

Hansard?

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, this approach provides the children and youth experience and difficulty in this area with the opportunity to learn more about group participation, as I said before, in an environment that doesn't threaten them and does not damage their esteem of themselves as human beings, despite what the minister says. However, the worker also sees the importance of involving children from other backgrounds and locations. It's his hope that this combined approach is helping to give native children involved a greater sense of belonging in the community.

It's kind of ironic, isn't it? This is just an aside; it has nothing to do with Bill 65. The native peoples were here first, but we are concerned about making them feel at home. With people like Omineca to deal with that, I see we have a real problem.

MR. JJ. KEMPF (Omineca): Eat your heart out.

MR. G.V. LAUK (Vancouver Centre): He certainly has a way with words.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the opposition to deal with him very gently because he's the only member who's been here since the beginning, and he's never missed a single word I've said throughout this debate.

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The hon. first member for Vancouver-Burrard has the floor.

MS. BROWN: Thank you. In summary, it lists two things.

HON. R.H. McCLELLAND (Minister of Health): Did you say: "In conclusion"?

MS. BROWN: Oh, no, this is just the summary of the report. I haven't even dealt with health yet. Listen, we've got a long way to go.

MR. L. NICOLSON (Nelson-Creston): These are just some opening remarks.

MS. BROWN: The children have learned more about their own culture, the native Indian culture; and, too, they have developed an interest in learning more about the native way of life in the past and are experiencing a more positive sense of their own identity through the use of the small group method, and to assist native youth in the areas of relating to others, functioning within a group setting, developing self-esteem, taking responsibility for their own behaviour, and also to expose the children to a variety of new experiences, and to help them learn new, constructive ways of having fun and to help them develop new interests.

These goals were aided by the work of the native Indian social worker, trained in the group-work method. The relationships formed between the worker and the children were used to foster these goals.

I want to remind you that I am discussing a programme which has been funded by the Vancouver Resources Board and which is in jeopardy as a result of Bill 65. I'm specifically dealing with the indigenous people, the native Indians, the original Canadians.

The worker also is able to use the interaction between the group members to develop their social skills and group participation. Then again it goes on to talk about the kinds of things that the group did. It involved itself in human relations exercises and crafts and drama, took field trips and had discussion groups and special projects, camping trips and swimming. Then it goes on to quote from the progress report of the native worker. "At the beginning of the programme a great deal of our energy went into dealing with disruptive behaviour." This makes sense, right?

AN HON. MEMBER: You should know; you read it.

MS. BROWN: When you are very uncomfortable in a situation, Mr. Speaker, you are disruptive, exactly the way the member for Omineca has always been since I started this debate. It's very uncomfortable in this situation and he's being disruptive. "However, by the end of the summer the children had learned some constructive ways of relating to each other." In the same way I'm hoping that the member for Omineca will learn some constructive ways of relating to people in this House. ,

MR. KEMPF: You bet I will. I'll vote.

[ Page 5703 ]

AN HON. MEMBER: He's almost there - he's a child.

MS. BROWN: He's almost there, you think?

MR. KEMPF: You bet I will. I'll vote. Watch how I vote. That will be very constructive.

MS. BROWN: I am going to watch how you vote.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

MS. BROWN: I believe him.

MR. KEMPF: Please write that into the record.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard has the floor. If the hon. member for Omineca wishes to offer any advice across the floor, perhaps he should occupy his own seat.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether you're familiar with the behaviour of very small children when they are uncomfortable about the situation that they are in, but one of the things they do is they fidget and they move around a lot. Have you ever noticed that? They never stay in their own seat. I don't think there are any teachers in the building, but they'll tell you.

MR. SPEAKER: Now back to Bill 65, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

HON. MR. MAIR: Is that your lot? Recess?

MS. BROWN: No. I'm afraid to give that member a recess. He'll rush out and sue somebody. (Laughter.)

AN HON. MEMBER: Are there any widows left?

MS. BROWN: We don't want that. Mr. Speaker, in discussing Bill 65, 1 want to say he's got guts when he takes on the second member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Barnes) , or else he's stupid. One or the other. Do you want me to withdraw something? Oh, you do. Look at him.

AN HON. MEMBER: We know he's got guts. He's the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

MS. BROWN: And corpulent affairs. Order, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: It's a little difficult, hon.

member, to call order when you're encouraging it from across the floor. Will the hon. member please proceed with debate on Bill 65?

MS. BROWN: Is the Speaker impugning my motives?

MR. SPEAKER: No, I'm just suggesting that you return to Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I was in the middle of a quote from the report of the native worker of September 30,1976, in which she was discussing overly aggressive behaviour.

"However, by the end of the summer the children had learned more constructive ways of relating to each other. This was especially apparent in group discussions. The discussion groups dealt with a variety of topics, and they were often used to discuss problems the children were having in getting along with each other, . ."

A very familiar problem that we have on the floor of this House, don't we, especially on the government side?

". . . and generally on how they were functioning as a group. At first, these discussions were initiated by the leaders, but eventually the children began to call their own meetings. By the end of the summer the children were able, with some assistance, to plan and carry out their day activities.

"Feedback from parents and the children's own actions and comments indicated that there had been great improvement in behaviour, since many children had become involved in the group; also, that the children were benefiting from the new experiences to which they had been exposed.

"It is also felt that this type of programme could prove to be a factor in preventing more serious problems from developing and may, in many cases, prevent delinquent behaviour."

And that's what I talk about - spending your money at the beginning of the cycle, rather than putting it into containment centres at the end. I'm not speaking specifically to the Minister of Human Resources now; I'm speaking to the government as a whole, because I realize that there has to be some consensus about how these funds are spent.

The fourth point raised was that the programme was to provide leadership opportunities for native youth and adults.

"A Secretary of State grant in the summer allowed for the hiring of two native students to help carry out the summer programme for the native youth. In addition, some of the older sisters of the children involved in the

[ Page 5704 ]

programme volunteered to help.

"Native women are to be trained in the future to run parent discussion groups and other adult groups that have been requested of them."

This is a really exciting programme, and I really wish the minister were as excited about it as are the people in Vancouver, the Strathcona Resources Board people and certainly the opposition members.

"A native teenager is involved in a drop-in programme at the Pender YWCA in co-operation with Outreach, and expressed his desire to provide leadership. He's now co-leading an after-school boys group.

"Conclusion. It would seem from the evidence that the native Indian project has been successful in beginning to meet its four stated goals. The works of the past year were necessary to establish the service in the community among the native people, to gain acceptance of the people and to establish trust. Now that this beginning has been made, the programme should grow and develop and become increasingly effective in its second year. The groundwork has been laid.

"The YWCA requests urgently that this grant request be supported for the year 1977-78, in order that a needed service on behalf of the native community may be continued and expanded."

It goes on to say that some support letters from programme participants and their families and various agencies are attached. As I mentioned earlier, Mr. Speaker, the budget for the Vancouver Resources Board is now on the minister's desk for his consideration. We are anxious to know what is going to happen to it. What's going to happen to it, once Bill 65 becomes a law?

I just got a note, Mr. Speaker, saying that there are several persons attending the Canada Council of Social Development Conference who are in the gallery now, and they'd like to say hello. Will the House join me?

It's really nice to have them there and to say to them personally that I use a lot of their research and publications, and they certainly have assisted in my continuing education. I hope they will continue in their good work. They're a pretty fabulous group, and I wish they had more impact on the social services of this province, Mr. Speaker. But then, we don't have control over everything, do we?

There are a number of letters attached to that application, one from a Mr. Sean Saywan, who says:

"I got to know Louise Hill because my little daughter goes to her summer programme, and right now I am helping for Louise as a receptionist at lunchtime and I help her with the boys' group after school. I think she could have the group for a long time, because the little boys like the group. Louise is nice to work with and I also go to the activity night.

"Because Louise is an Indian person, she was easy to get to know. A lot of times it is easier to talk to Indian people than people who aren't. Indian people know more about other Indian people. I am happy to write this letter.

"Yours truly, Mr. Sean Saywan."

There's another letter attached which says:

"I am a young mother presently raising six active children. The older ones have been attending groups at the Y since the programme started. My children have since started to participate in other community activities, but they still enjoy Louise's groups because they are just for native Indians, and this seems very important to the kids.

"Because my family is a young family, I do not have a lot of extra time. Louise's programme offers them the opportunity to go to different places and experience a variety of activities that I am not able to provide for them. I feel Louise's programme is an important one because it allows the children to meet and have fun with other children their own age.

"Thank you, Maisie Reo."

Then there's another one that says:

"Dear members of the Se Ta Co Na Society:

"I work evenings and do not have as much time to spend with my children as I would like to. My children enjoy going to the Y, and when they're there I don't have to worry about them. I see this programme as being very important to families like ours. It keeps the kids from wandering around the neighbourhood. When they're involved at the Y, they're having supervised fun and learning something at the same time." This is signed by Mrs. L. Sawan. Then there was a letter from the Seymour Elementary School. This is really special because when I was a counsellor at Simon Fraser - this has nothing to do with Bill 65 - part of my responsibility was to put volunteers into Seymour Elementary School. Seymour is a really special kind of school with a lot of experience in having most of the school population being kids of minority groups - primarily Chinese, Japanese and native Indians. So the area counsellor ' K.H. Jansen, wrote this note, and it says:

"I would like to express my appreciation for the service that Miss Louise Hall, YWCA worker, is providing to our Strathcona School. She is presently offering her services on behalf of native Indian students, and is involved in a number of social development groups as a leader. The need for these experiences for

[ Page 5705 ]

youngsters is great, and I would encourage and support the continuation of her services."

Mr. Speaker, there's more information about the native youth programme here. The reason I keep talking about it is because I honestly don't believe that the Minister of Human Resources knows about the native youth worker programme, and he certainly doesn't know what it does.

I see that it doesn't matter where the member for Omineca (Mr. Kempf) starts the day; he always ends up just about two chairs from where I am. Even though he may deny it, he obviously is listening to every word I am saying. He has a large native community. You certainly do. This should be really important to you, so listen carefully.

MR. KEMPF: We don't call them "natives"; we call them "Indians."

MS. BROWN: You do? Well, the member for Omineca calls them "Indians." They refer to themselves in the Strathcona area as "natives" and the youth worker as a "native youth worker." Now a rose by any other name smells just as sweet, so I'm not going to get caught up in debating with the member as to whether they should be called "Indians" or whether they should be called "natives." I'm accepting what they call themselves in this report, and that is native youth worker.

MR. NICOLSON: Point of order. The member for Omineca was corrected for speaking out of his seat. I don't care if he gives the Minister of the Environment (Hon. Mr. Nielsen) a bad name when people look down and see the person sitting in that seat making ridiculous interjections from out of his seat, but now he is slandering, really, by making those interjections from that seat, the leader of the Conservative Party, the member for Oak Bay (Mr. Wallace) . I'm sure the member for Oak Bay wouldn't mind him sitting in that seat, but he certainly would object to him making these mindless and inane interjections, which in my opinion are tasteless and uncalled for. When a member wants to make interjections, which is slightly against the rules, he should do it from his own seat, not from the seat of a person who is not even in his own party, and a member who does have respect.

What would a person in the gallery think, saying: "I wonder who that person is?" They would look at this and say: "That is the good doctor?" They would find this very hard to believe. They would go away, and the next time people would speak very respectfully of that very respected member, they would say: "I don't know if he's so respected. I saw him in the House one night during the debate on Bill 65."

So, Mr. Speaker, I think it's a very good rule we have, particularly when members make interjections, that they do it from their own seats. I was willing to see this happen even from the seat of the Minister of the Environment. It isn't fair to him, and it certainly isn't fair to the member for Oak Bay that the interjection should be made.

MR. KEMPF: Come on, get on with it.

MR. NICOLSON: Mr. Speaker, I am still on that point of order.

MR. KEMPF: Sit down, Lorne, we want to hear from Rosemary.

MR. NICOLSON: Mr. Speaker, I would respectfully suggest we have a rule here or else we don't.

MR. KEMPF: She hasn't said anything yet, but maybe she will.

MR. NICOLSON: If I were to go over and sit in the Premier's seat, which is vacant right now, and start making interjections, I am sure that would be equally distasteful to the Chair. I would urge the Chair to once again prevail upon the member for Omineca (Mr. Kempf) to show a little bit of good sense here in this House.

MR. SPEAKER: May I prevail on all of the members of the House that if they are going to interject in the House they do it from their own seats. They will promptly be ruled out of order because interjections are not permissible on the floor of the House.

MS. BROWN: I also want to thank you for your very wise ruling. I really appreciate that. I certainly appreciate the member for Nelson-Creston protecting the honour and integrity of the member for Oak Bay.

AN HON. MEMBER: He doesn't need the NDP.

MS. BROWN: What would you know, Mr. Member? You don't even know what kind of missives are coming out of your department.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: He's got more class than that.

MS. BROWN: You can't even put an annual report together. We're in October, and you still haven't got your annual report published yet and it was supposed to be on the floor of the House before we debated your estimates. I suggest you get your homework done - you're behind.

AN HON. MEMBER: I think the Conservative

[ Page 5706 ]

leader was insulted by the NDP leader.

MS. BROWN: You're going to fail this year for sure.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: The Conservative member has more class than the NDP. It's unfair to the member.

MS. BROWN: You get zero to this point. Of course, we know the reason he doesn't want to publish it. There's such a disaster going on in his ministry. He didn't even know who Dianne Hartwick was. He didn't even know that Dianne Hartwick was there, did he?

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard on second reading of Bill 65.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: The only disaster was that left by your colleague.

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): The Speaker won't allow it.

MS. BROWN: The member for North Okanagan reminds me of my favourite negro spiritual. Shall I share it with you?

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Sing it!

MR. SPEAKER: I'll be interested to understand how you are going to relate it to Bill 65, but if you can....

MS. BROWN: You hang in there, Mr. Speaker -you'll find out. (Sings):

"I looked over Jordan and what did I see Coming for to carry me home."

You get it, Mr. Speaker?

MRS. JORDAN: I'll carry you home right now.

MS. BROWN: She keeps sending me home but she doesn't offer to pay my way. She keeps sending me back to Jamaica and I'm waiting for the ticket, and it never comes.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: You like your $200,000 home in Point Grey a lot better. That mansion in Point Grey is pretty nice, isn't it?

MS. BROWN: Do you want to hear the rest of the song, Mr. Speaker? They're heckling me.

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

Interjections. MS. BROWN: The man from Mustang! MRS. JORDAN: Let's get on with it.

[Mt. Speaker rises. I

MR. SPEAKER: Now back to Bill 65.

[Mr. Speaker resumes his seat. I

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I want to talk some more about the native....

Interjections.

MS. BROWN: I'm going to ignore them, Mr. Speaker.

[Mr. Speaker rises. I

MR. SPEAKER: I'm not about to ignore the interjections. I've asked for order twice. I don't intend to ask for order a third time.

I Mr. Speaker resumes his seat. I

MS. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. This job would not be possible without you in the Chair fighting to protect me.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Do we have to stand for hypocrisy from a rich socialist?

AN HON. MEMBER: You've got some poor capitalists over there.

[Mr. Speaker rises. I

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. members will restrain themselves. The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard has the floor. I would ask you to respect that.

I Mr. Speaker resumes his seat. I

MR. G.H. KERSTER (Coquitlam): At $40,000 a day for the taxpayers of the province.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Coquitlam will please restrain himself from those interjections. The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard has the floor.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, again I'm reading....

Interjections.

[ Page 5707 ]

MR. SPEAKER: Please proceed.

MS. BROWN: Even the Whip is getting in on it.

Mr. Speaker, I want to continue talking about the native youth worker. Now I think I will be able to continue since the member for Surrey Dodge has left. The group is composed, Mr. Speaker, of eight girls in the middle teens.

Three of these young women, Mr. Speaker, have recently moved to Vancouver from Alert Bay, while the other teens have lived in the area for several years. Since this group started, one of the girls has returned to Alert Bay because of family difficulties. This young woman was also experiencing a particularly difficult time adjusting to school. The Alert Bay girls are extremely interested in school and are planning further education for themselves after high school. Two of the other girls presently enrolled in school are in need of a great deal of encouragement to continue. If you will remember, Mr. Speaker, one of the criteria for the native youth worker was to be a liaison in that transition period from rural to urban living and certainly on a one-to-one basis. I want to remind you that this is a programme which is in jeopardy as a result of Bill 65, and which will probably be destroyed once Bill 65 becomes law.

The oldest girl in the group shows an ability for leadership and has an interest in working with younger children. When this young woman feels she is ready, the worker will involve her in turn as a group leader. The activities of the group include bowling, skating, cooking and camping. Although the girls enjoy these activities, they seem to most enjoy the chance to talk with each other and with their leaders about mutual concerns and interests in an informal discussion group. Three hours a week are scheduled for this group. However, the girls occasionally drop in to visit with a worker who, I might remind you, Mr. Speaker, in case you have forgotten, is herself a native Indian woman.

The Saturday group is composed of four girls in their early teens. The families of these girls are experiencing many problems and this group has started meetings at the worker's home for informal discussion.

Now what I'm really trying to bring out to you is the kind of flexibility that is possible when a programme is community-oriented and based in the community and at the local level; the kind of flexibility which is not possible when it is handed down from a bureaucrat in Victoria, or even in Vancouver city hall, or certainly in Ottawa. That really is the most important thing about the Vancouver Resources Board.

MR. SPEAKER: I'm glad you eventually mentioned it.

MS. BROWN: Oh, sure.

MR. SPEAKER: Back to Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I don't know whether you've forgotten or not but what I'm discussing are programmes which are funded through the Vancouver Resources Board. The native youth programme for Strathcona is one such programme, and that's the programme which I'm discussing now. So it is very much relevant to Bill 65. It is Bill 65.

Then it goes on to talk about teen activities night involving an average of 10 to 12 youths.

"Most of the people who attend this evening are from Outreach. This group is also run by the native youth worker, a student teacher doing his practicum at Outreach and a welfare aid student."

[Mr. Veitch in the chair.]

"The main purpose of the group is to get the children involved in more constructive ways of having fun, and this group seems to especially value adult companionship and supervision. The activity night is also a time for discussion and informal group counselling."

Mr. Speaker, I have another letter of support to the members of the Se Ta Co Na Society and it is signed by Lorraine McAdam:

"I have been associated with Louise Hill of the Pender YWCA for a few months. I have seen Louise initiate a handicraft -recreative drop-in programme for native teenagers in the Strathcona area. From that contact with the teens who attend, this is a successful, well-attended programme.

"Louise is an extremely pleasant person who appears to get along with members of the community and puts at ease the people with whom she works. Louise is also a member of our advisory council. I feel she made a good beginning in a difficult job with the 'Y' and has the potential to develop and improve the programme."

As I said, this was signed by Lorraine McAdam who is from the Outreach school.

I mentioned earlier, Mr. Speaker, the Vancouver Indian Centre Society and some of the work that it's doing. I also brought to your attention the fact that it is located in the constituency of Vancouver-Burrard. They applied to the community grants officer of the Vancouver Resources Board for funding and put in a budget request for $31,507 to pay for counsellor salaries and benefits, plus travel costs for the fiscal year 1977-1978. What they explained was that they are hoping to have a third counsellor because the welfare fees are insufficient to pay for the third

[ Page 5708 ]

counsellor's salary and benefits. They are asking the resources board to move in and pick up this gap.

Also, it was necessary to allow for travel costs of the three counsellors, considering visits to the homes of clients, hospitals, visits in institutions such as the prisons and other places and other emergency cases outside of the centre that required the presence of one of the counsellors.

Now earlier this evening or late this afternoon -whichever one you prefer - I spoke at great length about some of the work done by the Vancouver Indian Centre, with which I was certainly very impressed. I want to tell you that their application for funding is very reasonable, because in fact they're intending to pay their senior counsellor $954 a month and their other counsellor $832. That is certainly much, much less than this government pays to some of its advisers, as you know. They pay anywhere from $250 a day to $600 a day to give them the bad advice that they've been following which has just about drizzled the economy into the ground. But that is what they're asking for.

They explained that their total number of counselling cases was almost 2,000 for the year, and averaged about 90 a month. Their number of individual counselling cases was 840 and the number of family counselling cases runs about 240. 1 think I spoke to you earlier today, Mr. Speaker, about their lunch hour programme, which is very unique and very special.

One of the things that the counselling service does is referrals. They talk about 20 referrals to the medical; 6 to psychiatric; 16 to educational; 40 to job training; 140 to employment; 150 to housing and accommodation; 40 to alcoholism, 70 to drugs; 6 child welfare problems; 6 family problems; 4 marital problems; other types of social assistance, 40. This is the kind of service which is going to suffer when Bill 65 becomes law and the Vancouver Resources Board, a community-based group, is no longer in existence to make these decisions.

They've even broken down their counselling according to sex: 60 per cent of them are male and 40 are female. I think the most frightening statistic of all is that 63 per cent of them fall between the ages of 17 and 25. 1 think, Mr. Speaker, you must find that alarming. You do? I certainly do. Only 7 per cent of them are 65 and over. Only 10 per cent of them fall within our age group, between 41 and 64.

Mr. Speaker, they administer approximately 472 cheques. I think this is averaging 192 cheques a month. That really is a big job. The number of individual cases is 962, and family cases are 62.

They have some handicapped persons with whom they also deal, some Mincome recipients, and some people who receive old-age security cheques. So I don't think there's any question about the quality of work they're doing, or the fact that they really do need and deserve that grant that they're asking for for the 1977-1978 year.

What will happen to this application we don't know, because after this bill becomes law, the Vancouver Resources Board will die. We don't know what's going to happen to their application for funding.

Mr. Speaker, they've given us their short-term goals and long-term goals. Their short-term goal is to integrate native youths into the communities in which they live and to involve them in the social and sports activities; and to encourage junior leadership among native youth - that is swimming instruction, et cetera - and to encourage participation in the various youth clubs in the school, especially the native club at Britannia Secondary School. I'm going to be talking about Britannia again later on because that's a really very special complex. That's something very unique. If you have never visited the Britannia complex, I would like to offer you a tour. Maybe the MLAs for that riding - the first member for Vancouver East (Mr. Macdonald) or the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barrett) - would love to do it.

Interjection.

MS. BROWN: You've been to Britannia? It's very special, isn't it, because they've managed to combine the school, the library, the senior citizens' project, the immigrant project and everything all in one. It really is a community.

MR. BARNES: They're spearheading a new English-as-a-second-language course.

MS. BROWN: They're doing a marvellous job with the English-as-a-second-language programme, and they have a native club at the Britannia Secondary School too.

The third short-term goal is to develop participation and awareness of native cultural activities at the Vancouver Indian Centre. They have a native dance class and they give carving instructions and beadwork instruction. But they also have long-term goals, and these are the ones I'm really concerned about, because once Bill 65 becomes law, unless the miracle which we are all hoping for happens and the minister withdraws the bill from the order paper, the long-term goals will not be realized, because the Vancouver Indian Centre will certainly not get its funding from the Vancouver Resources Board.

Anyway, the first long-term go al is to establish a communication process among native families to prepare for the establishment of a new Vancouver Indian Centre to be located at Prior and Hawk, which is near the Grand view-Woodlands area. They have really great dreams for the centre. In fact, the one in

[ Page 5709 ]

the Kitsilano area is so very well used by the whole community that it's already too small. As much as it would like to meet the needs of the community, physically it just can't, so they're going to have to move.

The second long-term goal is to use a contract worker as a liaison between the many native families in the area and, the Vancouver Indian Centre. The centre is now located at Vine and Third, and many native families are unaware of the programmes and social services provided by the centre.

The third goal is to eventually have real knowledge of every Indian family in the area, and this almost has to be done on a one-to-one basis, by working very closely with the home-school co-ordinators and the social workers.

I think that is one of the programmes which the Greater Vancouver School Board was referring to in the cable which it sent to all the MLAs yesterday, which I read into the record and in which it said it really was alarmed by the fact that Bill 65 was being debated and could become law. It saw its implementation as being a direct threat to the relationship that the school board has with the Vancouver Resources Board and to some of the real programmes that they together have been able to implement. This is one such programme.

The fourth goal is finally to build a real base for an organized native Indian community, wherein people take their proper place in their resident community, instead of filling the jails, and are involved in activities and programmes in the neighbourhood. More important than that, they are not submerged by integration into the community, but become part of the community as native Indian people, with the wonderful heritage of culture and religion in this area. I think that's really important.

Interjection.

MS. BROWN: The member for Surrey Dodge is back. I'm sorry; I don't hear very well in this ear.

Interjection.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, please.

MS. BROWN: What does he know? What does that member know? He couldn't tell where a Mustang was. It was sitting on his car lot for months and....

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, back to Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: He didn't know where a Mustang was that was sitting on his car lot for years. I'm not here to put my credentials on the line. But let's get one thing straight, Mr. Member.

AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear!

MS. BROWN: If a Mustang had been parked in my car lot, I would have known where it was there.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The hon. first member for Vancouver-Burrard has the floor.

MS. BROWN: How can I have the floor? That man is harassing me.

Interjections.

MS. BROWN: What a coward you are. You can't stand in your place and speak when you have to speak.

[Deputy Speaker rises.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Would the hon. member for Coquitlam please restrain himself during debate? He'll have his chance later on.

[Deputy Speaker resumes his seat.]

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I am not speaking from notes that I am reading for the first time, the way the minister did when he read his speech on Friday and was unable to move second reading because his speechwriter ...

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, back to the principle of Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: ... forgot to include it in his speech. I am speaking from what I know. I'm speaking from experience, okay?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: I don't drive a Mercedes either.

MS. BROWN: I don't drive a Mercedes. I have nothing against them. I think they're a good car, but I don't drive one. I don't eat tulips either.

MR. E.O. BARNES (Vancouver-Centre): It didn't come from a government contract, either.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Back to Bill 65, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: How can I get back to Bill 65? Listen to that.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, you can get back to Bill 65 if you wish to retain your place =in this debate.

[ Page 5710 ]

MS. BROWN: But they're harassing me!

MR. KING: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, there's so much rabble over there, I suggest that the government members either restrain themselves or we'll use restrainers. I suggest you put a straitjacket on the member for Coquitlam.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Your point is very well taken, hon. member.

MR. KING: It's very difficult. This member has been speaking for many hours and she's representing an important consideration in this community. I suggest that if those spineless members want to join this debate for the first time this session, they await their turn and respect the member for Burrard, who's making an intelligent contribution to this debate.

MR. KERSTER: Mr. Speaker, I was going to suggest that the member for Revelstoke-Slocan has asked us to rise to our feet. If she'll sit down, we will stand and speak, and we'll make some sense to boot.

[Deputy Speaker rises. I

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Would the member for Coquitlam please take his seat?

[Deputy Speaker resumes his seat. I

DEPUTY SPEAKER: If we are to continue any sort of orderly debate in this House, only one member may speak at a time. I would suggest that the hon. first member for Vancouver-Burrard speak on the principle of Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, those gutless bullies over there had an opportunity on Monday and Tuesday to speak.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: I'm cautioning you again, for the second time - back to Bill 65.

Interjections.

MS. BROWN: All they can do is sit in their seats and heckle.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The term "gutless bully" is unparliamentary and will not be accepted. You must withdraw it.

MS. BROWN: Just a minute, Mr. Speaker....

DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is the Speaker's ruling that you must withdraw, please.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to check with my legislative counsel. Is "gutless bully" out of order?

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, I'm asking you to withdraw that remark.

MS. BROWN: I will, Mr. Speaker. Just a minute.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: I'm asking you to withdraw it now, without equivocation.

MS. BROWN: Oh, just on your say-so?

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Yes, hon. member, on the say-so of the Chair.

MS. BROWN: Okay, Mr. Speaker.

Interjections.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, I cannot accept your point of order until the direction of the Chair has been adhered to.

Interjections.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, there is no point of order until the direction of the Chair has been adhered to. Please take your seat. Will the hon. first member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Lauk) please take his chair?

Now would you kindly withdraw the unparliamentary term?

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, because of my profound respect for the Chair, and for you in particular, I will accept your ruling that the phrase "gutless bully, " no matter how accurate it may be, is unparliamentary.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, without equivocation, please.

MS. BROWN: It's unparliamentary ...

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Will you kindly withdraw it, please?

MS. BROWN: ... and I will withdraw it, no matter how accurate it may be.

MR. LAUK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I've checked the list in the 19th edition of May.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, you must know, after all of your years in this House, that any such list is never exhausted.

[ Page 5711 ]

MR. LAUK: "Unmitigated coward" is unparliamentary.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, hon. member. You are not on a point of order.

MR. LAUK: "Weak-kneed nit"...

DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are not on a point of order, hon. member. Would you kindly take your seat?

MR. LAUK: is also unparliamentary, but I see nowhere "gutless bully" on the list of unparliamentary language. Mr. Speaker is breaking ground.

(Deputy Speaker rises. I

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now let's break a little ground and get back to the principle of Bill 65.

[Deputy Speaker resumes his seat. I

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, it would be really easy for me to stick to the principle of Bill 65 if you will protect my right to speak on the floor and not allow me to be harassed by the member for Surrey Dodge.

I was discussing the long-term goals before I was interrupted by that member who questioned, Mr. Speaker, whether I had ever been on an Indian reserve. Just for his interest, and not for Hansard or anyone else, I want to assure him that I was on the Musqueam reserve on Monday; that, in fact, I spend a lot of time on the reserve; that my son plays lacrosse with the Musquearn team.

MR. KERSTER: Once every three months.

MS. BROWN: No, I go there more often than that.

MR. BARNES: He's wrong again.

MS. BROWN: As a matter of fact, if I were not participating in this debate tonight, I would be speaking to a meeting of the Indian groups in Capilano, who invited me to talk to them about delivery of social services. But that's fine, Mr. Speaker. One thing we have never been able to accuse the member for Surrey Dodge of is accuracy. We've never been able to do that.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, back to the relevancy of Bill 65. Continued abuse of the rules of the House will not be tolerated.

MS. BROWN: In discussing the principles of Bill 65, 1 want to continue talking about the long-term goals of the Vancouver Indian Centre, which is located in my riding, as I mentioned earlier - the riding of Vancouver-Burrard. One of the long-term goals is to assist in gaining educational help for those in need.

The eighth one is that we have on our staff at the Vancouver Indian Centre three social workers, a programme director and a sports director, who will assist in the area involvement programme. There is a girls' basketball team, a boys' basketball team, floor hockey and soccer team. They're phasing out the boxing. They're doing it because it's too expensive, which is fine. I don't approve of boxing anyway. I don't like people hitting each other all the time. I do like Muhammed Ali, but I don't approve of the way he makes his living.

It goes on to say that they do want to get into marital arts - and kung fu and karate. Well, I don't know if I approve of that.

HON. MR. McCLELLAND: Marital arts?

MS. BROWN: What do you call it? Martial arts -that's it, sorry.

AN HON. MEMBER: There's a lot of fighting in marital arts.

MS. BROWN: Yes, I think there is, actually.

Anyway, it goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, in terms of their long-term goals, that they searched the city for a gymnasium which they could afford and very much want to use the gym at Britannia again - the Britannia complex - particularly for floor hockey and basketball. They feel that it is really essential that the young native children be involved as fully as possible in all the facilities offered in the community, and that includes ice skating and swimming. They have a mini-bus and driver at their disposal and supply volunteer workers wherever needed. Four of t h e b o a r d members live near the Grandview-Woodlands area.

This has nothing to do with Bill 65, and I'm not going to discuss it, but since the member brought it up, it's true that they have an absolutely fantastic lacrosse team on the Musqueam reserve. My son has played with them for years and it really has been an exciting experience.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: As you pointed out, hon. member, that has absolutely nothing to do with the principle of Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: Right, but I just thought I'd like to share with you that someone just told me that I couldn't match this, and they sent me a copy of their Vancouver Indian War Dance Club membership card. I think the signature is that of the Minister of Health

[ Page 5712 ]

(Hon. Mr. McClelland) . I wish he'd do a bit more war dancing, it would take care of some of the rotunda.

No, I can't match it. I'm not a member of the club. I'm going to have to check and find out why I haven't been able to join. What do you have that I haven't got? That's what I have to find out.

But back to the bill, Mr. Speaker.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: That would be very kind of you, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: Yes, I thought you'd appreciate that. I'd like to talk about some of the services provided through the Vancouver Indian Centre support programme, through counselling for low-income families and for youth in crisis situations. Then there's the sports programme, which I mentioned to you - to co-ordinate and establish the sports programme with the neighbourhood facilities, such as with the Britannia complex. The Musqueam team that my son plays with in the Kerrisdale Arena, not the Britannia complex. They also aim to involve those youth having difficulties with alcohol and drugs in a successful drug-alcohol programme, and to provide supplement meals for students in need. I talked earlier today about the lunch-hour programme.

It goes on to give a staff job description. It talks about the work organizer, who must have a complete knowledge and understanding of the many problems which face native peoples who have been forced off the reserves, now are jammed into the city, and are mostly on welfare. The job will require individual visits into the homes of native people and, in this way, ascertain the needs of each family and, by working closely with the home-school co-ordinators and social workers, gain help and information as to the families involved. Here we see that symbiotic relationship again that exists between the workers of the Vancouver Resources Board, the workers of the Vancouver Indian Centre, the people who use the Indian centre themselves, and the school - the home-school co-ordinators - which will just not be possible once everything is centred in the air-conditioned offices of the minister here in Victoria.

Talking about the worker organizer, this person will work out of the Vancouver Indian Centre and bring to the attention of the social workers any problems and any people who need assistance. The job would require working closely with the programme director and the sports director from the centre to help them in organizing sports events and cultural events in the centre and in the neighbourhood.

I don't know if I'm getting across to you yet, Mr. Speaker, how closely the neighbourhood and the community is involved in what the Vancouver Indian Centre does, and the fact that the Vancouver

Resources Board is one of the agencies that funds this centre and makes it able to carry through its job in a way that a bureaucracy in Victoria never could because it wouldn't understand. Do you know, in fact, what happens? If I could draw a map of the Kitsilano area, what you would find is that Vine is here and the Vancouver Indian Centre is here and, when you go across the corner here, this is the Kitsilano Resources Board office. You move from the member's head, up a couple of blocks, and down, and you're right there. They're just about two blocks away, so it's very easy for this to keep in contact with this down here - much more so than if this had to keep in contact with a bureaucratic office somewhere in Victoria across the water.

So do you see the kind of jeopardy that we're in in terms of the quality of service when Bill 65 becomes law and the Vancouver Resources Board dies? When you see that, you begin to understand why the people of Vancouver are putting up the fight they are to save their resources board.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: It's not the people of Vancouver.

MS. BROWN: The people of Vancouver are putting up the fight that they are putting up to save their resources board.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: You know who they are, Rosemary.

MS. BROWN: We're going to have to get that through to you, Mr. Minister. We're just going to have to get that through to you. What do we have to do to get through to the minister? The opposition to Bill 65 is broadly based, cuts across all political spectrums, all religious groups.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Mickey Mouse, Henry VIII and some more of your friends.

MS. BROWN: With 27,000 names, he finds three names: Richard Milhouse Nixon, Mickey Mouse, and Henry VIII.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Rockefeller.

MR. KEMPF: Who pays the bill?

MS. BROWN: And he discredits the whole thing. Three out of 27,000.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: What about all the people from Alabama and Arizona?

MS. BROWN: I'm discussing Bill 65. He isn't. That's really sad, because what he's saying is that the

[ Page 5713 ]

communications to him on Bill 65 from the Vancouver school board, from the city council, from the mayor, from his own appointees on the Vancouver Resources Board, the letters that he has received, the community groups - none of these mean anything. He has found three names, three people with a distorted and bizarre sense of humour, out of 27,000 signatures. That's what he zeroes in on.

HON. MR. McCLELLAND: They were the only three that made any sense.

MS. BROWN: That is unreal. The man is unreal. He said: "Those were the only three that made any sense." 26,997 legitimate names didn't make sense.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: We know those three knew what they were signing.

MS. BROWN: Three names, cranks, the results of a distorted sense of humour, make sense to that minister. Now what does that tell you about that minister?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: They knew what they were signing. That's why they signed the way they did.

MS. BROWN: I don't want to practise medicine without a licence, so I'm not going to give you a diagnosis. But I want you to think about it, Mr. Speaker, when you think about Bill 65, that there were 26,997 legitimate names, three illegitimate, and those three are the only ones that make any sense to that minister.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Nonsense!

MS. BROWN: When you accept that you understand the dilemma that faces us in the opposition and in the city of Vancouver.

AN HON. MEMBER: Back to your own chair Gary.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Gary, get out of this. You're insulting a respectable party by sitting in a Social Credit chair.

MR. LAUK: I'm a masochist.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Get back to your chair. Get back to the NDP where you look best, and that's not very good.

AN HON. MEMBER: Get a haircut.

MR. KEMPF: I don't blame you for wanting to cross the floor, Gary, but you have to have permission.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, please. The first member for Vancouver-Burrard has the floor.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, it's times like these that I regret that the ex-Minister of Education outlawed the strap. We could use it on that member from Omineca, I tell you.

AN HON. MEMBER: Selective use.

MRS. JORDAN: Now you resort to violence when you can't get your own way.

MS. BROWN: It's not my way.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, the Speaker would have his way if you would get back to Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for North Okanagan is discussing Bill 65.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, you have the floor.

MS. BROWN: Yes, and I want to say, through you, Mr. Speaker, to her that when I talk about the Vancouver Indian Centre and the native Indian programme which is funded through the Vancouver Resources Board, I'm not talking about my way.

MR. KEMPF: You bet you're not.

MS. BROWN: I'm speaking in support of programmes which deliver services to people which are very valuable, and which are in clear and imminent danger as a result of the policies and actions of an irresponsible Minister of Human Resources. That's what I'm talking about. It has nothing to do with my way.

AN HON. MEMBER: Your way isn't important, anyway.

MS. BROWN:. Oh, Mr. Speaker, what are we going to do with that corner over there? We need a plumber in this House - someone who is accustomed to dealing with drips.

AN HON. MEMBER: You'd like to eliminate him, wouldn't you, Rosemary?

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, the lunch programme, which I mentioned earlier, served approximately 150 children in the first five months of the year. These were kids, incidentally, as I mentioned before, who if

[ Page 5714 ]

they hadn't been served lunch at the Indian centre, would not have had anything to eat.

In terms of their budget, they put in for a budget of $5,000 for the year to continue carrying their programme through. In fact, their total budget request to the resources board was for only $13,250. I think I mentioned earlier the approval of their budget and the amount of funds which they received.

I just want to make a couple of general statements based on an article in, again.... I don't know why I keep quoting The Province all the time. I didn't really realize it was a good newspaper until I started researching this thing. So I guess it's not all that bad. The Canadian of The Province of April 23,1977, carried an article by Paul Grescoe called "A Nation's Disgrace." It talks about accidents, homicides, suicides, disease - and everywhere the spectre of alcohol. Native health care is a litany of ignorance on both sides. And although this story is not based primarily in British Columbia, it talks in part about the experience in British Columbia too.

Mr. Speaker, one thing it pointed out, for example, is that 10 new cases of TB appeared last year among the 400 residents of the house-poor, pollution-rich Stony Creek reserve near Vanderhoof, British Columbia.

AN HON. MEMBER: Careful.

MS. BROWN: Well, if that's not accurate, you should do what the Minister of Corpulent Affairs would do if he were in the House and sue. You should sue Paul Grescoe. But that's what it says.

"Among other things, tuberculosis, which was supposedly under control, has had a resurgence in the north and is still seen in the south. Ten new cases of TB appeared last year among the 400 residents of the house-poor, pollution-rich Stony Creek reserve near Vanderhoof, British Columbia."

Mr. Speaker, there are not very many people here, are there? Do you think we have a quorum? Would you like to count?

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Are you requesting a count?

MS. BROWN: Yes, I think you should count and see if.... No, no. You don't pull the buzzer to count, Mr. Speaker. Oh! What a ding-a-ling.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please take your seat, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: No, I will not take my seat. I did not call for a division. I don't know why you rang the bell.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, I will refer you to May, 16th edition, page 331, which clearly spells out the Speaker's requirement on the quorum being counted. Would you kindly take your seat?

MRS. JORDAN: Point of order.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: There's no point of order during the count on a quorum. Would all hon. members please take their seats so the Speaker could count to ascertain whether or not we have a quorum? Would all members please take their seats?

Hon. members, it appears to the Speaker that there is indeed a quorum in the House. I recognize the first member for Vancouver-Burrard.

MS. BROWN: There's a point of order.

MRS. JORDAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would prevail upon your good graces in this point of order to ask the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard to withdraw the statement that the Speaker is a ding-a-ling. (Laughter.) I find this shocking and rather typical of the ridiculous debate that is taking place by this member. I would ask her to withdraw.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: I now recognize the first member for Vancouver-Burrard on Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: I whispered under my breath. I didn't even hear myself say it.

MR. BARRETT: She was talking about the bell.

MS. BROWN: Yes. Ding-a-ling, ding-a-ling.

AN HON. MEMBER: Shame on you!

MS. BROWN: I'm ashamed that the member for North Okanagan would think I would have said such a thing.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now, hon. member, back to Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: Sure.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: On a point of order, the first member for Vancouver Centre.

MR. LAUK: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I don't know of any authority for ringing division bells except on the call of an hon. member of this assembly for a division.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, if you would check the 16th edition of May, page 331, you will find....

[ Page 5715 ]

MR. LAUK: Could you give me the 19th edition reference?

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, I will give you the 16th edition, if you would check that. I have it in front of me.

MR. LAUK: You haven't got the 19th edition?

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Well, if you go back a few editions, I'm sure you'll find it, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I don't think you understand how expensive those editions of May are. I understand that the 19th edition cost $50. Isn't that right?

MR. KERSTER: This is costing $40,000 a day, Rosie.

MS. BROWN: We've got the drip in the corner again.

AN HON. MEMBER: Let me call a plumber.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, before I was so rudely interrupted by the absence of everyone from the chamber, I was just making some general statements about the condition of the native peoples throughout Canada as was written by Paul Grescoe in this article of his called "A Nation's Disgrace." What he said was:

"Newborn native children he found were suffering and dying from such diseases as gastroenteritis and pneumonia. Dr. Black of medical services blames these conditions not only on the poverty of the parents, but on their outright lack of child-rearing knowledge."

This is one of the areas that is taken into account and dealt with by the native youth worker in areas: the whole business of involving the mothers - if not both parents, at least involving the mothers - in discussion groups where they talk about nutrition and child care and about taking the step from rural to urban living.

He goes on to say:

"There was a time in the past when Indian mothers were very skilled in raising children. I think a lot of that has been lost. A dependence on junk food hasn't helped the health of the children. A Nutrition Canada survey has shown that the native population has the most severe diet deficiency of any Canadians, especially in vitamin A. C. Martha Noa, a 24-year-old Inuit social worker, told me that as a child on Baffin Island she was fed fresh raw meat full of vitamins: 'We didn't get sick the way babies do now, ' she said. 'Nowadays pregnant mothers don't get enough meat or nutritious food.' "

1 want to read you an example of one case which was brought to the attention of one of the resources boards in Vancouver. It's the story of Mrs. H. Mrs. H is a native woman whose husband was ill for several years with TB. She has had many struggles over the years. I am talking directly about a specific case dealt with by the Vancouver Resources Board. Before I start, I would just like to point out, Mr. Speaker, that I have had the hand-written letter typed because I find it very difficult to read the handwriting. That is the reason why it is typed. It didn't come typed.

She says:

"I remember how terrible it was when we had to stand in those long lineups. Some got their cheque afterwards and some didn't, and the workers didn't care."

It reminds you of the poem I read this afternoon, doesn't it?

"Some of us had to wait for 10 days, sometimes going without food. They always used to check into all your background to see if you were cheating. They would never take your word for anything or treat you with respect.

"One time I remember there was no food in our house and my -husband was in the hospital. The kids were very small, and they made me wait for my cheque. Finally the only way I could get my cheque to feed the children was to go to Mr. Rankin, and he told them that I was starving and had to have it. They told them they were checking my earnings and they knew full well that I had not been able to work for a long time.

"Another thing they used to do in the old days was to keep information from people. They never told you what you had the right to know or what your rights were. If your social worker did not like you, you would probably not get welfare, or you would not get special needs you were entitled to. You usually had to put up an awful fight to get what was coming to you and what your kids needed."

That's the kind of service we're going back to.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: That's a slur on social workers.

MS. BROWN: I hope Hansard picks up the minister's comments, because it's the first time since he's become Minister of Human Resources that I've heard him ever say anything good about social workers. It's the first time, so why don't you repeat that?

HON. R.S. BAWLF (Minister of Recreation and Conservation): You just haven't been listening.

MS. BROWN: Bawlf! Where did you come from?

[ Page 5716 ]

DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. member, please! You have the floor at this time, and only one member may speak. You must speak on Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: I will. I'm trying to, but my surprise at seeing Bawlf over there...

Interjections.

MS. BROWN: He's out of his seat again, that fidgety young member for Omineca. He never stays in his seat.

MR. LAUK: Out of seat, out of mind.

MS. BROWN: I really liked that - out of seat, out of mind! Anyway, Mr. Speaker, I am discussing Bill 65. She goes on to say:

"I like the efficient way it's done now. In the VRB, the social workers come right down into the community. . ."

That's important - right down into the community. ". . . and they seem like friends to us now. In the old days, they used to come down as snoops. Many is the time I've had a worker open the cupboard and fridge, and even look under the bed in some cases, before they would give me welfare.

"One time when both my husband and I were out of work, we had no money. We were turned down for welfare. We had a little bit of money left to us in a will, but had spent it after six months and we were broke. We applied again and again through welfare, but we had to come back with a receipt for every cent showing how the money had been spent."

That's the little inheritance that they got; they had to show exactly how it had been spent.

"Finally my husband got so mad that he got a placard out and walked up and down before the welfare department, and the placard read: 'I have no money.'

"It's been a lot different since the NDP came in and we got the Vancouver Resources Board. The community boards are a great idea. It's good for the people. It gives them a chance to participate and to work together with social workers for the good of everyone. I know the workers like it too. I have seen them change a lot in how they work with us now. They're out in the community working right along together with us.

"I want to tell you about one other thing that happened to me before, and I hope this will never happen again after the Vancouver Resources Board is taken away from us. One time my husband was in the hospital and my cheque was four days late. I kept phoning the welfare, and they kept telling me it was mailed to me. I knew it was not mailed, because I was not on the mailing system.

"I went down and told them. They told me to wait another day and I told them I could not wait any longer because I had no food in the house and my two kids were starving. So I had to swear out in an affidavit that was two pages long, and after I swore out the affidavit they told me it would take three or four days to re-issue my cheque.

"This would never happen today because we get the cheques right away when we need it. I was really hungry this time and the little food we had in the house I had given to the kids for breakfast, so I was determined to fight for my rights. I went to the office where the supervisor was, and he was eating a big sandwich. I was so hungry that I just grabbed his sandwich and ate it. And the social worker got mad and said that for that he would not give me my cheque. So I said that I was staying all day if necessary until I had food for my kids.

"I waited all day and then, when it got close to 5 o'clock, they told me that if I didn't leave they would call the police and put me in jail. I said they could put me in jail because then they would have to look after my kids. So at 10 minutes to 5 o'clock they finally brought me my cheque. They could have done this in the first place.

"This would never happen in Vancouver today. The VRB started to treat people as human beings, and we don't want this to change."

As I explained, Mr. Speaker, the handwriting was very difficult to read so I had the letter typed, but in every other respect it has not been altered in any way.

Mr. Speaker, in talking about poverty I started out, as I said earlier, discussing a special group in the community - a group that we too often forget - and that was the native Indian group. That was the reason why they were No. 1 on the list of groups which I was going to discuss.

I want to draw attention to another group that has the support and that supports the Vancouver Resources Board, and that's the Salvation Army. Now maybe the minister thanks that they're just a vocal minority too.

MR. LAUK: He thinks they only come out at Christmas.

MS. BROWN: Maybe he. questions their contribution to the community. The Vancouver Resources Board has a history of service, and the

[ Page 5717 ]

Salvation Army has a history of service that is without question or is without second in this country. I think it says something for the Vancouver Resources Board when they have the support of the Salvation Army.

During the fund-raising drive they put up this year, it issued a supplement called: "Who needs it? - The Salvation Army in the shadow of affluence." It talked about poverty too. It says there are 300,000 Canadian families that have only one parent, and in 261,230 of them the parent is a mother. It goes on to talk about the poverty that affects 53 per cent of one-parent families; it talks about the fact that poverty affects four times as many female-headed single families as it does male-headed families.

It says mental illness is Canada's No. I health problem, striking more Canadians than all other diseases combined. One child in every six born this year will require psychiatric care. In 1971, the total cost of psychiatric services and working time lost was $1 billion. In 1977 it will be almost twice that.

It goes on to tell us that the poorest 20 per cent of Canadians share only 4.4 per cent of Canada's money income, and that the wealthiest 20 per cent of Canadians share 42.2 per cent of it. It goes on to tell us that despite government efforts to redistribute wealth more equitably, the family income of the poorest 20 per cent of Canadians fell by 7 per cent between 1969 and 1974.

It talks about alcoholism; it talks about law-breaking. It points out that Canada has one of the highest rates of imprisonment of any western nation. Close to 80 per cent of the penitentiary inmates quickly return to jail. It tells us that the average prisoner in Canada is only 27. Disgraceful statistics.

It talks about the aged. Although they make up only 8 per cent of the population, they require 35 per cent of the patient days in hospital. It says that by the year 2000 there will be 3.3 million in this country who are over age 65.

An anonymous note which was just handed to me pointed out that the hon. Provincial Secretary (Hon. Mrs. McCarthy) is on the board of directors of the Salvation Army.

Then it talks about poor kids and tells us that there are more than 1.5 million poor children in Canada. It tells us that poor children are more likely than middle-class children to be born prematurely, to be shorter, to be less fit and to have lower IQ ratings. It tells us that poor children are more likely to underachieve. -Poor children are less well represented in the courts than wealthier children. Almost 60 per cent of all poor children living in Canada live in Ontario and Quebec. Almost half of those living in rural areas of Newfoundland, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and the Northwest Territories are living in poverty.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.)

Then, of course, it goes on to give some facts about the Salvation Army and the kind of contribution it has always made to our community. It operates 26 men's hostels, 3 children's homes, 33 hospitals and women's homes, 21 homes for the aged, 11 homes for probationers and many more facilities in Canada. The Salvation Army supports the Vancouver Resources Board. It's just another vocal minority, the minister tells us.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: All the pinkos are there.

MS. BROWN: What was that facetious comment?

MR. D. BARRETT (Leader of the Opposition): They're all pinkos. The Salvation Army is all pinkos.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: I was looking at you there, Mr. Leader of the Opposition.

MS. BROWN: Well, we know that he and the Provincial Secretary had a terrible fight over this bill anyway, so maybe he's decided she's a pinko now.

Mr. Speaker, the Vancouver Resources Board deals with one area that is dealt with a great deal by the Salvation Army report, and that is youth. At this time I'm not going to talk about the youth workers who operate within the Vancouver Resources Board. These programmes have grown up as a result of the community resources advisory board's recommendations and recognition of the specific needs of their area, neighbourhood and community.

MR. BARRETT: He should withdraw the insult to the Salvation Army.

MS. BROWN: Did you refer to the Salvation Army as pinkos?

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: No, they wouldn't associate with the pinkos. The pinkos are all in that little group on that other side of the House.

MS. BROWN: It doesn't matter what you call this group over here, but we wouldn't tolerate any insults to the Salvation Army.

Mr. Speaker, I want to give you a list of some of the youth programmes funded by the Vancouver Resources Board. Again, I'm doing this because the minister in his "nothing" speech on Friday made such an issue of the wastage of money - that the Vancouver Resources Board was wasting money and giving it away to worthless projects:

The Kitsilano youth worker - $16,000.

Gordon House youth worker - $9,500.

[ Page 5718 ]

Strathcona youth co-ordinator - $13,333.

Native Indian youth worker - $11,000.

Marpole-Oakridge summer youth division - $500.

SAK summer youth division - $1,000.

Social enrichment - $10,726.

Streetfront development - $300.

I want you to listen very carefully to this because you have heard a lot from the minister about how the Vancouver Resources Board wastes money.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Where do you think they get the money from?

MR. BARRETT: Not from you, from the people.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: That's right. It's not the Vancouver Resources Board.

MR. LAUK: You think it's your money and it's not.

MS. BROWN: Do you think they're finished?

MR. SPEAKER: Proceed, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: You have heard the minister on numerous occasions accuse the Vancouver Resources Board of wasting money. This is why, as I deal with each group, I want to list to you the money that they have funded each project with so that you and all of us can decide whether that money is indeed wasted or not. So listen very carefully, Mr. Speaker. I'm not even appealing to you for compassion or anything. Just give it a cold, hard look, and you tell me whether you think this money was wasted or not. I'm going to tell you more about these groups as we go along.

The Strathcona summer enrichment programme, perspectives....

Guidance through group work - $8,000.

Cedar Cottage-Kensington youth project -$8,343.

Carlton social adjustment - $3,486,

Mount Pleasant teen centre - $7,000.

Marpole-Oakridge youth project - $5,814.

Grandview-Woodlands native youth worker -$9,275.

I'm going to ask you to do one more thing, Mr. Speaker, and that is to compare those figures with the $35 million which this government is allowing wealthy people in this province who die and leave estates of more than half-a-million dollars or a quarter-of-a-million dollars to keep $$35 million. I want you to compare these figures with what they give away to the rich. Compare that with the sums which the Vancouver Resources Board made available to these youth projects.

You remember that the next time that minister stands up and makes statements about the Vancouver Resources Board throwing hard-earned tax dollars away. That's the way he likes to refer to it: "Hard-earned tax dollars." He doesn't say that when he wipes out $35 million in taxes. He doesn't say that. But when it's $11,000 to a native youth worker or $7,000 to a youth project, then he stands up and talks about hard-earned tax dollars.

MR. LAUK: Millionaire government.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Your bureaucrats at the VRB are gobbling it up. You know it.

MR. BARRETT: Our bureaucrats! Go out in the hallway and slander people, not in this House.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I'm kind of sorry that the Provincial Secretary (Hon. Mrs. McCarthy) is not in the House tonight because I want to talk about one of the youth projects - in particular, the one in Little Mountain. I think it's important that that government member should know something about the area which she is representing and about the devastation that's going to be wrought on that area once Bill 65 becomes law.

The Vancouver Resources Board requested that a study be made of the needs of the youth community of the Little Mountain area. This was done by someone by the name of Rhonda Howard, who was consultant, and by Margaret Reed in June, 1976.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition on a point of order.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to bring to your attention that the Minister of Human Resources is using a recording device in the House. There is a standing rule against such practice. It was formally invoked against the member for North Okanagan earlier this session. I'd ask the Speaker to bring that to the attention of the minister, that recording devices are not permitted in the chamber.

MR. SPEAKER: As I recall, hon. members, the use of a recording device or a small tape recorder for dictation purposes was first used by a former hon. minister of Highways and ICBC. It was at that time brought, I believe, so I'm told - although I can't find any record of it - to the attention of the House. I personally am not aware of what happened after that.

But I would suggest that since the bill that's before the House is one which involves the Ministry of Human Resources, the hon. minister, along with the rest of the members of the House, will be quite interested in what the hon. first member for Vancouver-Burrard has to say.

[ Page 5719 ]

MR. BARRETT: I appreciate your comments, but we do need a ruling on the use of recording devices. I've checked the records and, as you point out, there is no ruling. It is my understanding that such practice is not condoned by existing standing orders or existing rulings.

MR. SPEAKER: There's no suggestion in standing orders or any other record that I can find restricting the use of recording devices to dictate letters on the floor of the House. It's a practice that I don't think we should indulge in frequently; but there's nothing, hon. Leader of the Opposition, in our standing orders or in any record that I have found that is a prohibition against it. So all I can do is suggest to all of the hon. members that they consider the fact that it is something that has never been covered by our rules, as far as I'm aware of.

MRS. JORDAN: On a point of order, because my constituency, and thus myself, was mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition, I would like to concur with your ruling and refresh your memory on the incident you referred to involving the then Minister of Highways, Mr. Strachan, the member for Cowichan. It was agreed between the parties that as long as a recorder was used judiciously and not at an inconvenience to other members, it should be done or should be allowed. This was done in recognition of the fact that the sessions are getting longer and longer, that it's increasingly difficult, particularly under such circumstances as we're enjoying now, for members to meet their very serious obligations to their constituents.

I'm sure, Mr. Speaker, you are well aware even from your own responsibilities, that members' time out of the House is frequently taken up with important telephone calls to their constituents and to others. They have responsibility, as well, of meetings.

MR. SPEAKER: May I just observe for the benefit of all of the hon. members that if there was a recording of the debate which is taking place on the floor of the House by means other than the electronic equipment which we employ in this House, I would be concerned about it because that is under our standing orders. But if members of this House are using a recorder or a small pocket recorder rather than writing their letters out in longhand while they're in attendance on the floor of the House, I know of no prohibition against that particular matter.

While it has been brought to the attention of the House this session, and, as I recall, in a previous session, I'm at the pleasure of the members of the House. I know of no rule that would prohibit the use of such a device in the House for the purposes of dictating a letter, but I don't say that I particularly agree with the use of that type of a device in the

House, no more than I agree with some of the other practices.

MR. LAUK: A question of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I, as a member for Vancouver-Centre, object to the use of such a recording device in the chamber.

MRS. JORDAN: Well, you're never here, so we don't have to worry about you.

MR. LAUK: If I was never here, I would hardly be standing in my place, speaking to the Speaker. And I don't know how the hon. member for North Okanagan would know that I'm not here, because she's usually not here herself.

My point of privilege is this: it is a privilege of the House, and the House alone, to authorize the recording of debate in this chamber, including all happenings in this chamber, including cross-comment. No other recording device is permitted in this chamber; no other electronic device is permitted in this chamber, including lights, fixtures, anything, without the approval of the chamber itself.

MRS. JORDAN: What about the cameras that come in to photograph... ?

MR. LAUK: May I finish my point of privilege? Speaker Dowding stated if it was not as an inconvenience to other members ... and the member for North Okanagan stated that herself. It is an inconvenience to other members to have the anxiety to know that the Minister of Human Resources, who's continuing to record now - and no one can tell me that that device is not picking up the debate in this chamber.... It's an objectionable practice. If the minister would learn to write, he wouldn't need that recording device.

My point of privilege is that 1, as a member, object to the practice. I do not want my debate or the debate of any other member in this House to be recorded, other than by Hansard.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: I wouldn't record your debate if it was the last thing on earth.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member, I appreciate your remarks. It is not really a point of privilege. But may I say that since it has been brought to the attention of the Speaker, it's something that I will consider. It is something we have no rule on in this House.

If I can draw on my own experience as a member of this House, quite often I have found it was a real problem to keep up with correspondence and still attend to the duties in the Legislature. If a recorder was available, although I never used one, it might have been a great assistance to a member of the House. I think that it is something all of the parties

[ Page 5720 ]

should consider, as long as it does not in any way impair those people who have possession of the floor or in any way become involved in recording the debate which takes place, other than by the process of Hansard.

MR. G. MUSSALLEM (Dewdney): I would like to make a short observation which may be of assistance to you.

MR. SPEAKER: Is it not an observation, hon. member? If you are on a point of order, I can listen to what you have to say.

MR. MUSSALLEM: I'll make it a point of order on the general tenor of what has transpired here this evening - and you've heard many.

I feel that sound recording is just simply one way of recording. We have other forms that are being used at will in this chamber and in the gallery as well. That is the question of cameras. I think, Mr. Speaker, that you cannot rule one without the other. So when you are taking into consideration voice recording, please consider also the cameras that are recording.

MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to offer any opinion, as that would be out of order. I just wish to refer you to existing standing orders 129 (l) , (2) , (3) , (4) , (5) , (6) , (7) , (7) (a) and (b) , and (8) - especially to standing order number 129 (3) on page 47 - and then back to standing order 1. 1 would ask the Speaker - and I think it would be appropriate without any comment pro or con - to examine the existing standing orders and the latitude offered in standing order I and come to the House with a ruling as an interpretation of what exists.

I believe if there's any question about picking up background or recording debates, that is indeed covered in 129, (1) , (2) , (3) , (4) , (5) , (6) , (7) , (8) -especially (3) in terms of penalty. I think it would be appropriate, rather than going into a debate of pros and cons, if the Speaker could advise the House as to how far he can go in giving guidance to the House in writing regarding the use of such a recording device.

MR. SPEAKER: I appreciate the comments, hon. Leader of the Opposition. It's a matter I'll look into, because, as I say, there is no written ruling that I am aware of. The hon. first member for Vancouver-Burrard continues.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, in discussing the debate, I would like to say that aside from the fact that I consider it an act of discourtesy, since I made it absolutely clear from the beginning that the reason for this debate was to educate the Minister of Human Resources, I certainly wonder what would happen if in fact he were recording this debate and did decide to use it outside of this chamber. I wonder if you would tell me what my rights would be under those circumstances.

MR. SPEAKER: Let me remind the hon. member that this debate is being recorded by Hansard, copies of which are available to all of the members of this House, and copies of which can be distributed by the direction of hon. members of this House. So I see no conflict at that particular point. The hon. member continues.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, may I draw to your attention the infamous Watergate experience with tapes, which were spliced and deleted and fiddled and faddled with. I want to assure you that I am concerned about my rights in this case.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The tapes of the House are under the control and the direction of the Speaker.

MS. BROWN: I am not discussing the tapes of the House. I am discussing the tapes of the minister's recorder.

MR. SPEAKER: The tapes of the House which record all of the debate of this Legislature are under the direction of the Speaker. I take great exception to the suggestion of a Watergate being perpetrated on the members of this House, hon. member.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, if that was what I indicated then you have every right to take exception, but that was not what I indicated. I addressed myself to the Minister of Human Resources and his tape-recording machine and his tapes. Now are you telling me that you are taking responsibility for that? That was what I was asking you about, not the Hansard tapes, which I know you are responsible for and will guard with all the integrity which you have. That I understand.

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member continues.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I asked you.

MR. BARRETT: On the original point, I appreciate your clarification. Would it not be well for the House to continue without the practice of the tape until we have an indication from you as to what direction you wish this to proceed?

MR. SPEAKER: Without....

MR. BARRETT: Without the use of tape recordings until we have some guidance from you, in terms of the rule. I don't want you to express one

[ Page 5721 ]

opinion or the other. I'm just thinking that rather than establish a practice, we should wait until the Speaker can come back and instruct the House. I think it would be wiser to proceed that way.

HON. MR. VANDER ZALM: Mr. Speaker, in order to bring this to an end so that the hon. member may resume her debate, I would like to assure the members of the other side of the House that I am accustomed to working long hours, and I don't mind doing my work after the hours of the House. People will get their prompt replies as usual, despite the opposition from the opposition.

MS. BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I don't think that the minister understands. We are not talking about....

MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard will now get back to Bill 65.

MS. BROWN: I am discussing Bill 65. In my discussions on Bill 65, 1 want to know what my rights are if that discussion is being recorded by the tape recorder which the Minister of Human Resources has in his possession, and is continuing to use. I'm asking you: what are my rights under those circumstances?

MR. SPEAKER: Your rights are to continue debate on the floor of the House, hon. member. I would suggest....

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. I would suggest to all of the hon. members of this House that any use of a tape recorder to dictate letters into should be resisted for the time being until such time as the Speaker can come back to this House with some direction. However, may I say to all of the hon. members that that direction will not be mine alone. It will be the will of this House, not the Speaker.

The hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard continues.

MS. BROWN: Thank you. I certainly accept the ruling.

Mr. Speaker, I was discussing the review done on the Little Mountain youth project which was commissioned by the Vancouver Resources Board in 1976. 1 want to read first of all the terms of reference for the task.

"The terms of reference as stated in a contract between the researchers and the Vancouver Resources Board were to review the services of the Little Mountain youth project in co-operation with the local citizen group. The review should involve the staff of the project, other relevant agencies and Vancouver Resources Board staff, in addition to the local citizen group."

Then it goes on to give a brief history leading up to the presentation of these two reports which show that last year - the 197S-1976 fiscal year - youth projects continued to receive funding from the Vancouver Resources Board community grants budget, but were shifted from community grant status to direct programming status, presumably to allow more co-ordination and rationalization of the service.

"The youth workers became temporary Vancouver Resources Board staff. Now this year, the 1976-1977 fiscal year, youth project funding was transferred from the community grants budget to the operating budget in order to release more grants money for distribution among the 14 community resources board areas, some of which would otherwise have received no grant allocation. Meanwhile, during a time of uncertainty as to the future of the community resources board, the Little Mountain youth project had applied directly to the Vancouver Resources Board for its 1976/1977 funding rather than via the local community resources board. The budget was approved at the 1975/1976 level, and the local boards elected only a short time before also submitted to the VRB a list of projects recommended for grant funds. These were disqualified as not meeting community grant funding criteria."

The reason I'm reading this, Mr. Speaker, is again because one of the criticisms levelled at the Vancouver Resources Board is that they just give money to anybody and everybody without using any discretion, without using any rationale, or without any serious consideration or thought being put into the matter. Here we find, in fact, that the list of projects recommended for funds was disqualified by the resources board as not meeting the funding criteria. Instead, $16,000 was made available for other projects which might apply for funding during the year.

This left the following picture in Little Mountain: a community grant formula allocating the area $73,000 worth of grants funding. A youth project receiving $154,000 formerly from the Vancouver Resources Board grants budget was shifted to the Vancouver Resources Board operating budget, and the $16,000 available for local grant projects approved during the year by the local citizen group. All of these decisions were made at the community level and by community people themselves after a great deal of thought and understanding of the projects and just what they were supposed to achieve. "What was the role of the youth projects? In spite of the name it is not the case that all programmes

[ Page 5722 ]

called youth projects, or all staff called youth workers, offer identical services." This is important because one of the things, if you remember, Mr. Speaker, that the minister mentioned earlier was that he is going to devise this monolithic, faceless welfare system that was going to serve the whole province. So the way we have it now is where the community decides what its needs are and develops programmes to deal with that. It goes on to say:

"Instead there are some basic differences in the role which youth projects and youth workers can, and do, fill. In this section two basic roles, or approaches, or styles will be briefly described in a simplified manner as a framework in which to consider the Little Mountain youth project.

"l) The individually oriented approach. A youth project can offer intensive one-to-one counselling. In this case the chief difference between the youth worker and the social worker, probation officer or school counsellor is that the youth worker can spend more time with each client."

This is a one-to-one thing we're talking about.

"The youth worker also extends the authority of the system by being able to deal with the youth who are not receiving service by statute."

"A third aspect sometimes attributed to these workers as different from others in the system is that a youth project does not carry the stigma of the other services."

In other words, if you have a probation worker it means you have been in trouble at some time. If you have a social worker it means you're in receipt of welfare. If you have a counsellor it means you have special needs or whatever, but a youth worker -according to this report, anyway - does not carry a stigma, and the young people accept their worker. However, since research for this project shows that the youth are well aware of the referral process, this last one was discounted. Therefore the two aspects offered by this approach which differ from the rest of the system are time and extension of authority, but no different services offered, although techniques may very.

Of course, social workers, probation officers, school counsellors are usually pleased if there are other staff available who can give additional attention to their clients, or to those believed to be potential clients. Recreation or other activity is sometimes used in this approach but the activity is one which already exists. That is, no new programmes for the community are developed. The activity is shared between worker and youth on a one-to-one basis as a way of developing trust and naturalness and sometimes to broaden the youth's experience or just for a break. As the relationship between a worker and the youth develops, the amount of time given to recreation often decreases in favour of more of their original intention, that of one-to-one counselling. This is in the Little Mountain area, the youth project I'm talking about.

The example of this type of youth project was the Spring Street project, which was operated in Vancouver from late '71 until the end of March, '76. Each worker carried a caseload of five. The project, however, was terminated by the Vancouver Resources Board because of the high cost of dealing with so few youths. This is the same board that the minister continually accuses of having no sense of money and wasting the taxpayer's dollar.

Because the existing Vancouver Resources Board programme, Special Services to Children, is already available to provide one-to-one workers at a social worker's request, it should be mentioned that some group work is very similar to one-to-one work. Therefore it's considered here under the individually oriented approach.

Problem youths are referred from various agencies for a group discussion and counselling and, possibly, some recreation activity. Through the group approach, more youths are served per worker. Basically, what is offered is, again, more time and individual attention given to "problem youth." This is a different way of looking at it than through the containment centre route. It's a different way of looking at it.

Seeing youth in a group may give the worker more of an understanding of peer influences than strictly one-to-one work and may allow more flexibility in including friends of the referred youth. Whichever its form, the individually oriented approach has as its emphasis the assumption that the youth problem is due to problems of individual youths and that changes must come from these youths.

If I can draw your attention again to the Salvation Army brochure, one of the statistics that it gave that was so frightening was that the average age of people incarcerated in Canada is under 27. The average prisoner in Canada is 27 years of age and younger. It goes on to talk a bit about its own involvement with juveniles and family court and the increase in problems with juveniles. This is one way, Mr. Speaker, of dealing with it.

The other one initiated by the resources board was the community-oriented approach. The workers using this approach have often been called street workers or detached workers, because rather than relying on agency referrals to define problem youths, they work on the streets with large groups of youth, using the community both to meet the youths and to develop services for them.

Compared to the one-to-one worker and the probation officer, social worker, et cetera, the street worker has the flexibility to become involved with

[ Page 5723 ]

the youth's peer group and with the institutional settings of the community. Other staff often appreciate that the street workers seem to know what is going on out there. This is a programme that was very successfully pioneered, as you know, Mr. Speaker, with the gangs in New York, in other large American cities and in some eastern Canadian cities, too.

The approach is programming rather than talk oriented, and in some cases, it parallels the alternative school setting. While the latter provides a school programme for youths who are not successful in the regular school system, the community-oriented youth project may provide and develop community opportunities for after-school activity for youths who are not successful in the regular recreation setting.

"Not successful" in this case may simply mean not having the money to afford to take part. Remember we are still talking about poverty. One of the euphemistic ways of dealing with poverty is saying that a person is not successful. But it could, in fact, mean that the young person did not have the money to take part. It could also mean that there was a lack of activity available or, for one reason or another, there was exclusion from activities due to being labelled a troublemaker.

Although community oriented, the approach does not ignore individuals in times of crisis or need. The street worker will provide counselling as well, and also provides as a role model and an example of adult interest in and understanding of youth, which has wider implications for communication between youth and adults.

An outcome of the successful community-oriented approach, more emphasized by some programmes than others, is to break down barriers between youth and the rest of the community, focusing less on the problems of the individual youth and more on the situation which they see facing them in schools and community centres. In this sense, the uniqueness of the service provided by this approach is that the youths are not named as the problem. The focus shifts from the individual to the community situation.

Those are the two forms of approaches used by the youth workers, who, as I mentioned earlier, were funded by the Vancouver Resources Board - the Kitsilano youth workers to the tune of $16,000; the Gordon House youth worker, $9,500. But here I am dealing specifically with Little Mountain.

The youth project March, 1976, annual report reports six workers with a caseload of 17 youths per worker, which would be a total of 102 youths. Actually, I think that's not much less than the containment centres are designed to hold - not much less than that. We're talking about 102 young people. Of these six workers, one is assigned to the Riley Park Alternative School, which is not, strictly speaking, part of the youth project. Another of the six is a team leader who is not recorded as a worker on any of the intake forms, although he continues to see some youth. This leaves four regular youth workers who, according to the numbers reported, do have an average of somewhere between 17 and, 18 youths for a total of 71 youths. It goes on to break it down in terms of the schools - Brock, Tupper - and the homes of the single parent, both parents, foster homes, whatever.

Some general comments.

"Some of the aspects which stand out are as follows:

" (1) The youth profile actually varies from worker to worker."

Reading down each column - and there's a table which I'm not going to read - shows four different caseload profiles which make up the project.

"For example, worker 2 has a caseload of youth who are least likely to have had previous Vancouver Resources Board service or to have been charged by police. In addition, this is the only caseload profile in which no youths are out of school and, as further information shows, are least likely to have histories of school failure.

" (2) Within the Little Mountain area, the Riley Park area" - that's the area east of Ontario Street - "is a project focus, as shown by the schools attended and sources of referral.

" (3) The youths served are more likely than the average youths in the city to be from families on welfare or from single-parent families, from families who have received or are receiving other Vancouver Resources Board family services and to have been charged by police. All but seven of the youths are in school, although additional information shows that at least another six are very irregular attenders and another 10 are at the Bridge Alternative School, which indicates a lack of success in the regular school.

"Finally, 80 per cent of the youths served are agency referrals, while the remaining 20 per cent are met on the street in the more traditional style of street work. The street-work method of recruitment is practised by only one of four youth workers, worker 1. The other three workers rely on agency referrals, of which 60 per cent come from schools. Those are Brock, Tupper and the Bridge, and 26 per cent come from local community resources board offices.

"Each youth worker's caseload is oriented toward a particular referral source. One worker has the most community resources board referrals; another concentrates on Brock; another on Tupper grade 8 girls; and a third on

[ Page 5724 ]

Brock grade 6 boys."

So some attempt is made by the community to fit the workers to the particular needs of youth in the area.

One of the special services of the social workers is that the social workers do not relate the project directly to the prevention of admission to care, but in fact they see the youth project at a preventive level, providing service in groups for those not on the brink of placement. The Riley Park community centre director sees the project as dealing with youth who otherwise would not fit into the community centre structure and would instead harass others at the centre.

Mr. Speaker, it goes into some detail about the kind of service which is given by the youth workers. For example, it talks about one youth worker who works two to three nights a week with various sport league events and one weekend per month on overnight camping and hiking trips. It talks about another one who is involved in in-school discussion periods during class time and recess activity in the school gyms; school guidance class, once or twice a week; one evening a week on crafts or swimming at the aquatic centre; and one-to-one counselling and occasional trips.

In an event, for the summer an increased emphasis on programmes is planned with a summer camp and a youth employment programme. The summer camp is run jointly with the Dunbar youth project and provides six 11 -day canoe trips for 20 youths each trip. Three of the trips are for Riley Park youth at $25 each, and three of the sessions are for Dunbar youth at $35 each. Summer camp staff accompany the youth and a youth worker may also go along for a session if a number of the youths on his or her caseload are attending that particular session.

The youth employment programme is planned as a clearing house for youth wanting summer jobs and local residents wanting a job done. Contracts are written up by the youths themselves. One worker expressed the need for more one-to-one work in the summer because the youth project van for taking groups of youth was to be used for the camp session and because it is more difficult to get groups to meet during the summer.

On the other hand, the same worker sees the need for more summer street work to keep in touch with the youth and hopes to encourage community centre programming, such as outdoor movies for the youth. While most of the service at present is provided on a referral caseload basis, there are no definite guidelines for the length of time a youth should be seen or what goals are expected by what points in time. Most of the youth now being served have been served since late last fall.

Two workers were hired then and a third worker changed at that time from younger youth to older youth. Workers vary in what they believe is the length of time necessary to deal with youth, with suggestions ranging from six months to a year and a half. Goals for work are mainly improved self-concept and improved decision-making skills, with more specific remarks on the looked-for effects on youth as follows: that they should be less verbally abusive, more congenial and co-operative. Also there should b e improved appearance and better understanding of themselves and others. Learning how to get positive attention from others and the implication of different youth-work approaches for these goals was also discussed.

Social workers, Mr. Speaker, at the local community resources board offices praise the youth project for the good one-to-one counselling of the youth workers. In general, they see the project offering group activities, especially since the Vancouver Resources Board one-to-one workers are available for intensive one-to-one counselling of youth on the brink of being taken into care. Here it is interesting to note that, in fact, at least half of the youth referred by the social workers to the project are not dealt with in the group but in a one-to-one manner by the youth worker as they do not necessarily fit into any existing caseload group in terms of age or friendship.

One community resource worker questions youth project funding when less money is available for sending youth whose families are on welfare to summer camp. Several probation officers have come into contact with the project through clients who already have a youth project worker. The probation officers have also expressed interest in referring youths to the project, including youths who have come to their attention but who are not actually on probation. To them, the youth workers already in the community are a useful source of information-sharing about clients' lives in the community. Probation officers are pleased that the youth workers can spend more time with their clients and can deal with youth when they are not on probation. They also look favourably on the project's activity orientation. A probation officer makes use of the youth project office to see clients who live in the area.

A number of schools in the area have been approached at times by one or more youth, workers. A referral relationship has been established with Tupper Secondary via one of the girls' counsellors, and with Brock Elementary via the principal, counsellor and two grade 6 teachers. Two youth workers, one at Brock and one at Tupper, provide an alternate classroom discussion for problem youths once or twice a week during regular classroom time. One of the same workers at Brock withholds activities from youths if a teacher reports unsatisfactory school performance.

Another worker, in co-operation with the Bridge

[ Page 5725 ]

Alternative School, allows points accumulated at the school to be used by youths to pay for their share of a movie or of another activity. So you see that they are learning life skills, Mr. Speaker, as a result of this experience.

In terms of the individual youths at the Little Mountain youth project, improving self-concept is considered by project staff as a main goal of working with youths. It's interesting that their goal is exactly the same as that of the native youth worker that we were just discussing under the Strathcona project. How youth problems are defined not only determines the approach the project will take, but also influences the way that youths see themselves reflected in the eyes of the worker, and that's really important.

A local police constable present at one of the citizens' groups meetings reported that in the police eye there is not a youth problem in the Riley Park area anywhere near the one there was a few years ago. If no one else is - if no other minister is - at least the Attorney-General (Hon. Mr. Gardom) should be grateful for that fact.

Interjections.

MS. BROWN: Well, you're listening. Thank you. They came down with a summary and some recommendations.

"The project is seen as not having at present a tightly articulated role."

That's social work jargon for saying it's flexible.

"it has not been singled out as unique in this respect as the same applies to many services which have a history of temporary funding and have had little time or incentive to develop an approach to self-evaluation and planning.

"Looked at historically, the project has experienced a shift during its three years of operation from a community-oriented to a more referral-based, individually oriented approach. This is not inconsistent with the Vancouver Resources Board youth services worker job description, which now applies to youth project staff. However, this individually oriented role of the youth project is not yet crystallized."

The report brought down a number of recommendations for the project, but specifically those which addressed themselves to the Vancouver Resources Board.

"All youth projects should have a clearly defined role, whether it is the individually oriented or the community-oriented approach. All workers should work in a consistent manner. The scope of the work requires a joint staff effort and continuing staff discussion to reach the goals which are set by either role.

(2) Given that other agencies and staff deal with individuals, it is suggested here that the unique contribution of a youth project can be to deal in a community-oriented role, A byproduct is that more youth are reached per worker. In addition, youth workers in this role are in a position to encourage other agencies and institutions to share responsibility, resources, funding and facilities to provide programmes and activities for youth. It is a role also more consistent with the use of volunteers suggested by the local citizen group.

"The intensive, individually oriented approach can then be saved for very specific target groups - for example, youths who are about to be placed in care - with very specific goals and timeframes. This involves family work as well as youth work and is more appropriately connected with the community resources board team. This type of work is already the role of the existing Vancouver Resources Board one-to-one, special-service workers. An examination of that service would be required if youth workers were to also take on that role.

" (3) In order to follow through on implementation of a community-oriented role for youth projects, the job description of youth service workers would have to be changed to reflect less of an emphasis on counselling and more of an emphasis on community work, as has been described in this report.

" (4) To facilitate planning of youth project services within an area and to prioritize areas needing such services, it is suggested that the Vancouver Resources Board request the Vancouver school board release non-attendance figures by school. At present, these figures are released only with the schools identified by code number. For local planning purposes, the schools should be identified."

I gather that this certainly is one of the requests that the Vancouver School Board is looking at very seriously. One of the concerns that it has is that it will be disrupted as a result of Bill 65 becoming law and the Vancouver Resources Board being dismantled.

Just a word about data description.

"In general the persons interviewed Eke the project. They felt, for example, that they were able to engage in activities that they would not normally be able or willing to do. These included skiing, camping, organized sports, movies, hiking, go-carting.

Remember, Mr. Speaker, we're still talking about poverty.

"There was however, a difference between what girls did and what boys did. Girls said they did crafts, talked about personal problems - school, et cetera - and sometimes went out

[ Page 5726 ]

to eat or swim. Most of the persons interviewed found out about the project or came to be with a youth worker through referral from a social agency or from the school."

Again we're looking at the symbiotic relationships that the Vancouver School Board has with the Vancouver Resources Board.

"Other ways that persons got involved were through meeting a youth worker casually on the street or hanging around. This mode is used predominantly by two youth workers. Other persons were with particular youth workers because they were referred by a worker who had generally left the project.

"The adults interviewed generally spoke of the project. One couple, for example, attributed the decrease in vandalism over the last three years directly to the existence of the project. In other cases, people saw the improvement in their own children. They described things like the children communicating better, getting along better with each other and not being in as much trouble, as well as that they themselves did not have to deal with the police so much and did not have so many problems with the school."

The problems with the schools somehow managed to be sorted out, but this was usually the case when kids had been moved to an alternative school.

"Some parents have become very involved both with their children and the programmes which are run by individual workers."

I think, really, that this is much more important, the feeling....

Interjection.

MS. BROWN: Thank you. I don't know whether to be flattered by the fact that he's listening when no one else is, or whether to be concerned about it.

MR. LAUK: He turned down his hearing aid.

MS. BROWN: He turned down his hearing aid.

But, Mr. Speaker, what I've been saying is that the attitude of the parents to the youth worker programme is even more important than the attitude of the school or the community or the Minister of Human Resources or the workers at the Vancouver Resources Board. The attitude of the parents certainly is a very positive one, and I think there are some worth repeating.

What the parents said is that they saw improvement in their own children. They noticed, for example, that they communicated better, that they got along better with each other, that they weren't getting into as much trouble, and that as parents they found that they did not have to deal with the police so much. They found that problems at school seemed to be sorting themselves out, although, as it says in brackets here, this was usually the case when the children were moved to an alternative school.

It goes on to say that some parents became very involved both with their children and with the programme, which was run by individual workers. An example of this would be the sport programme. Other parents were happy to see their children involved, and encouraged their participation, but were not involved themselves. This, apparently, was the majority of the parents.

In some cases, once in the formal parental interviews and in several casual conversations in the neighbourhood, some adults were negative about the programme. In one case there had been direct contact and in others there were just observations, but not based on direct contact. Parents and young people tended to agree, however, on their perception of the community.

I'm talking about Little Mountain now, Mr. Speaker. Since the Provincial Secretary is not here, you're going to have to listen on her behalf. They agreed that there was no place to go for young people in the evenings where they could hang around and become involved in things in a constructive way. The community centre was often raised as a case of an organization that excluded young people.

The participants in the youth project pointed out that persons their age were only permitted in the centre on Friday evenings and Saturday. In fact, no one wanted to hang around on Friday evenings or Saturdays. One of the things that we seem to forget is that young people enjoy the weekends as much as adults do, or maybe even more. They often did things with the youth project instead *

In addition, organized activities were expensive, costing anything from $9 or more for the courses, which the young people considered to be beyond their means. That's interesting, because I think the tickets to go.... What was that rock group that was here last Sunday night - Kiss or something?

AN HON. MEMBER: The Rolling Stones.

MS. BROWN: Oh, you're dating yourself. I think it was a group called Kiss, wasn't it? I think the tickets to get into Kiss were about $9. And they were sold out too. And nobody got home until the following morning either.

However, some adults pointed out that the facility was just not adequate. It was not as large or as well equipped as many other areas of the city - we're talking about Riley Park - and this meant that the activities and the number of persons involved had to be reduced. One parent, however, pointed out that her son was interested in floor hockey, and was in the position of getting gym space at 11 p.m.

[ Page 5727 ]

Other concerns raised around the community centre were related to how young people were treated while on the premises. Youths noted that they were often judged before they acted, although they agreed that on occasions they did act contrary to the rules. Other areas of the community appear equally closed to you from the point of view of the community, citizens ' parents and young people. The schools do not have community activities, although Tupper used to have a youth drop-in every evening which attracted large numbers of young people. Reportedly it was closed because of vandalism and there are no other facilities open to young people to hang around.

Mr. Speaker, the House Leader has indicated that he's willing to accept an adjournment, and I certainly would welcome one.

Ms. Brown moves adjournment of the debate.

Motion approved.

Hon. Mr. Williams moves adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 10:54 p.m.