[ Page 2349 ]

CONTENTS

Routine proceedings

Sewerage Facilities Assistance Act (Bill 88). Hon. Mr. Lorimer. Introduction and first reading — 2349

Oral questions

Complexity of ICBC rebate forms. Mr. Bennett — 2349

Opinion survey of ferry passengers. Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2350

Request by northern B.C. egg producers. Mr. Wallace — 2350

Additional funds for UBC Faculty of Forestry. Mr. Smith — 2350

Investigation into occurrence at Crease Clinic. Mr. Gardom — 2350

Further projects in Victoria's Inner Harbour.

Mr. Morrison — 2351

Repayment of $25 by Fruit Growers Mutual Insurance.

Mrs. Jordan — 2351

New ferry routes and Horseshoe Bay. Mr. L.A. Williams — 2351

Discussions with Federation of Peace Officers. Mr. Curtis — 2352

Secrecy in deliberations of Labour Relations Board.

Mr. McClelland — 2352

Relief of Bralorne from Mineral Royalties Act.

Mr. Gibson — 2352

Priority for allotment of garden plots. Mr. Phillips — 2352

Committee of Supply: Supply Act, No. 1, 1974

Hon. Mr. Barrett — 2352

Committee of Ways and Means

Hon. Mr. Barrett — 2353

Supply Act, No. l, 1974 (Bill 108). Second reading.

Mr. Bennett — 2353

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2356

Mr. Wallace — 2358

Hon. Mr. Barrett — 2359

Committee, report and third reading — 2359

Residential Premises Interim Rent Stabilization Act (Bill 75).

Second reading.

Hon. Mr. Barrett — 2360

Mr. Phillips — 2361

Mr. Gabelmann — 2366

Mr. Gardom — 2367

Mr. Wallace — 2368

Royal assent to Supply Act, No. l, 1974 — 2369

Reports

Select Standing Committee on Standing Orders and Private Bills. 2nd and 3rd reports — 2369

TUESDAY, APRIL 9, 1974

The House met at 3:20 p.m.

Prayers.

HON. P.F. YOUNG (Minister of Consumer Services): Mr. Speaker, I have just finished being interviewed for television by a very dynamic group of students who represent a class that is here today. I'd like the assembly to welcome the general business class of Sir Charles Tupper School and Ms. Hiebey, their teacher.

MR. R. T. CUMMINGS (Vancouver–Little Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I hope you have good control of this House today, because we have more students from the constituency of Vancouver–Little Mountain. They're from Eric Hamber Secondary School and are under the guidance of their teacher, Mr. Klassen. It's very important that they get a good opinion of this House.

MS. K. SANFORD (Comox): I would like to introduce a group of students who are here today from Port Hardy. These are junior secondary students who are here to participate in the music festival in Victoria. I wish the House would join me in welcoming them.

HON. L.T. NIMSICK (Minister of Mines and Petroleum Resources): I would like to introduce to the House today a group of people from that great City of Kimberley in the east Kootenays, that area close to Alberta. They are Mayor Ogilvie, Alderman Deagle, Alderman Banks and Alderman Reid.

In addition I would like you to welcome a very good friend of mine from Vancouver, Mrs. Nina Freeman, who assisted me in organizing the first CCF club in Canada in the City of Rossland.

Introduction of bills.

SEWERAGE FACILITIES ASSISTANCE ACT

Hon. Mr. Lorimer presents a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor: a bill intituled Sewerage Facilities Assistance Act.

Bill 88 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Oral questions.

COMPLEXITY OF ICBC REBATE FORMS

MR. W.R. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Transport and Communications. Last February 10 the Minister, as recorded in Hansard, spoke in detail against bureaucracy and red tape in dealing with Human Resources and Mincome. I wonder if he personally endorsed the ICBC rebate forms that I have here in my hand.

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Transport and Communications): Yes, I did.

MR. BENNETT: Supplemental: will the Minister tell me whether ICBC will refund any surcharge paid by a motorist to an agent if he seeks help in filling out these forms, and whether the agent charges for his services?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: There's no need to go to an agent to have the form made out. It's a fairly simple form.

MR. BENNETT: Further supplemental. It may be simple to the Minister, but we're receiving all sorts of complaints from people having difficulty in filling out these forms. If they're not going to pay the agents for their time in helping them, has the Minister any contingency plans to help motorists fill out these forms? There seems to be a lot of difficulty with them.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I have a copy of the form here, my friend…

MR. BENNETT: "My friend"? (Laughter.)

HON. MR. STRACHAN: …with an explanation and directions. It's all explained in there and I'm quite sure you can understand it.

MR. BENNETT: Supplemental, Mr. Speaker. I'm not saying what I understand; I'm saying we're getting a lot of complaints from the citizens of the province, and I'm only asking to help them. They are writing in and also phoning in to a lot of radio shows with their complaints. I'm not asking for myself; I'm asking if the government is going to respond to a large group of citizens in this province who say they're having difficulty with the form.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: In the past, as an MLA, I have helped my constituents fill out hundreds and hundreds of forms where help was required. As I say, this is a fairly simple form. If there are some people in your constituency who have problems with it, I suggest that you, as the MLA, help them fill out their forms. Be a good, friendly MLA.

MR. BENNETT: We don't live that near….

[ Page 2350 ]

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Your question was: are we going to pay the agents if they help? I think that any good insurance agent would be quite willing to help the customers who provided him with a substantial commission for the work done in filling out the very simple insurance application form. Insurance agents do that all the time.

MR. BENNETT: Supplemental. I only say it because the predication for the original fee for agents was that it was directly related to the service they did there. Now that fee was related to that service; this is an additional service on which that fee wasn't predicated. That's why I asked.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! It's becoming argumentative rather than being a question.

OPINION SURVEY OF FERRY PASSENGERS

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): May I ask the same Minister if the ferry authority planned a public opinion survey of B.C. Ferries passengers in April or May? I'm not sure of the date.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I don't know how you get that information. I haven't actually made up my mind yet as to exactly when it's going to take place. There is going to be a public opinion survey, yes.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Have any people been hired by the ferry authority to carry out such a survey?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Not to my knowledge, no.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: May I ask the Minister whether an investigation is underway at the present time to determine how information regarding this survey was leaked to radio station CHUB in Nanaimo?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: No, I'm not particularly interested in finding out where a leak came from. There are a thousand rumours spread all the time. If you check every rumour, you'd do nothing else.

AN HON. MEMBER: Not unless there's a leak in the ferry.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: As your friend says, as long as there are no leaks in the ferry.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: I thank the Minister for his reply that there is no investigation underway. May I ask whether instructions were issued by the B.C. Ferries' management or the Minister through the B.C.

Ferries' captains forbidding the distribution of questionnaires about the future of dining room facilities on board B.C. ferries by B.C. Ferries' employees themselves?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Yes.

REQUEST BY NORTHERN B.C. EGG PRODUCERS

MR. G.S. WALLACE (Oak Bay): Mr. Speaker, could I ask the Minister of Agriculture if in the last 24 hours he has received a written request from the Northern B.C. Egg Producers Association asking him to prohibit the marketing board from taking action against producers who are faced with back levies or court action?

HON. D.D. STUPICH (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, I have received a letter from someone who purports to be the solicitor for egg producers who have received such a demand from the board.

MR. WALLACE: In view of the continuing dispute and the long debates we've had in the House, have any decisions been made to have a test case in court on this whole issue as to whether or not the marketing board can legally take producers to court?

HON. MR. STUPICH: If any such decision has been made, it has not been made by me or in consultation with me.

MR. D.M. PHILLIPS (South Peace River): Is the Minister of Agriculture going to seek assistance from the Minister of Finance in settling this matter?

HON. MR. STUPICH: There are no plans for seeking such assistance at this point.

ADDITIONAL FUNDS
FOR UBC FACULTY OF FORESTRY

MR. D.E. SMITH (North Peace River): My question is to the Hon. Minister of Lands, Forests and Water Resources. In recent weeks there have been a number of disturbing reports from the Faculty of Forestry at UBC concerning the inadequacy of funds to provide the programmes they must render today, particularly since they have expanded their teaching into such courses as watershed management, recreation management, wildlife management, forest ecology, computer sciences and so on.

Is there any plan by the Minister to provide some sort of financial relief for the Faculty of Forestry so they may continue to provide these courses for an enrolment which I understand is double today what it was a year ago?

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HON. R.A. WILLIAMS (Minister of Lands, Forests and Water Resources): Mr. Speaker, I would point out that there was an additional grant of $4.8 million which was noted in the newspapers. There will be applications for supplementary grants.

I would say that in addition I've recommended to the Minister of Finance that the taxes the former administration required the forestry faculty to pay on their research forest in the Alouette area should be ended so they would have those funds available for special research projects. I'm pleased to say the Minister of Finance agreed and ended a policy that lasted for 20 years.

MR. SMITH: A supplemental question. I think the Minister will agree that the amount of taxes forgiven are insignificant in relation to the problems that exist today. We're all concerned about the ecology of the province….

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Would you state your supplemental?

MR. SMITH: Will the Minister provide specific funds from the vote of Lands, Forests and Water Resources to help offset the deficit that this faculty is incurring today?

HON. R.A. WILLIAMS: I think the question was answered, Mr. Speaker. What is normally collected in the form of royalties on stumpage will in fact be used for educational and research purposes.

INVESTIGATION INTO
OCCURRENCE AT CREASE CLINIC

MR. G.B. GARDOM (Vancouver–Point Grey): My question is to the Minister of Health (Hon. Mr. Cocke) on which I've given him notice, Mr. Speaker. On February 25 of this year, a young patient in Crease Clinic plunged through a window four floors to the ground and suffered very seriously. Unfortunately, he perhaps has permanent disability. I'd ask the Minister of Health if any investigation has been made into this tragic occurrence and if he would furnish particulars if the investigation has taken place.

HON. D.G. COCKE (Minister of Health): Yes, I was informed of the tragic occurrence a short while ago and we have asked for all of the information that can be made available. It has not been made available to this point. I presume the investigation is still going on. When I have full information, I will be in touch with that Member, Mr. Speaker.

FURTHER PROJECTS
IN VICTORIA'S INNER HARBOUR

MR. N.R. MORRISON (Victoria): Mr. Speaker, today at the opening of the lower promenade of the causeway, the Premier made reference to additional projects forthcoming in the Inner Harbour. Could he tell the House now what those projects are?

HON. D. BARRETT (Premier): Take it as notice, Mr. Speaker. (Laughter.)

REPAYMENT OF $25
BY FRUIT GROWERS MUTUAL INSURANCE

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): My question is to the Minister of Transport and Communications and goes back to the takeover of Fruit Growers Mutual Insurance Company by ICBC. At that time, anyone wishing to take out auto insurance with Fruit Growers Mutual had to pay a $25 membership. Since its takeover by ICBC, the people were advised that that $25 would be refunded. Today they received a letter from ICBC stating that ICBC would not pay that $25 refund. Is the Minister going to refund this money to those members?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: As I recollect my statement, I indicated that the Fruit Growers were going to make a repayment to their shareholders; it's not up to ICBC. But I'll take the question as notice.

NEW FERRY ROUTES
AND HORSESHOE BAY

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver–Howe Sound): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Transport and Communications: could he indicate whether or not it is proposed that the new ferry vessels which will be constructed over the next several months will be used on the Horseshoe Bay–Departure Bay route?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: The intention is to use them in the northern route. I won't specifically say it would be Horseshoe Bay–Departure Bay at this time.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: Could the Minister indicate whether or not plans are underway for the enlargement of the ferry slips at Horseshoe Bay in order to accommodate these two ferries?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: No, the work being done at Horseshoe Bay right now has nothing whatever to do with the new ferries. It is related to the present requirements to meet the present ferries.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: If the new ferries are to use the Horseshoe Bay route and Horseshoe Bay service terminals, will those facilities have to be further altered?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: If it becomes necessary

[ Page 2352 ]

to use the Horseshoe Bay base, I would expect they would require some further alterations.

DISCUSSIONS WITH
FEDERATION OF PEACE OFFICERS

MR. H.A. CURTIS (Saanich and the Islands): To the Attorney-General. I believe members of the British Columbia Federation of Peace Officer's executive met with the Attorney-General last Friday to discuss matters which are currently before the House. I wonder if the Minister could indicate the degree to which the many questions posed by the executive at that time were answered or clarified.

HON. A.B. MACDONALD (Attorney-General): To go into all of the particulars would be difficult, but a number of points were made about various sections of the proposed legislation. On about half of them we came to an agreement there and then, and the other half we agreed to consider further. I expect I'll probably have a chance to meet with them again before the bill reaches second reading.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. May I point out to the Hon. Member a bill on the order paper is not really a subject of inquiry in oral questions.

SECRECY IN DELIBERATIONS
OF LABOUR RELATIONS BOARD

MR. R.H. McCLELLAND (Langley): A question to the Minister of Labour (Hon. Mr. King). Could he tell us to what extent his department goes to make sure deliberations and correspondence from the Labour Relations Board are kept secret at all times?

HON. W.S. KING (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, the Labour Relations Board is an independent, quasi judicial agency, and I have legislative jurisdiction over that board. I would strongly suggest that if any Member has any evidence of wrongdoing or questionable practices by the Labour Relations Board, they should certainly bring it to my attention.

RELIEF OF BRALORNE
FROM MINERAL ROYALTIES ACT

MR. G.F. GIBSON (North Vancouver–Capilano): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Mines. Has the Minister received a request from the principals of the Bralorne gold mine, asking for relief from the provisions of the proposed Mineral Royalties Act in order that that mine might reopen and again provide employment in British Columbia?

HON. MR. NIMSICK: No, at the present time, but my mail is stacked up pretty high. (Laughter.)

PRIORITY FOR ALLOTMENT OF GARDEN PLOTS

MR. PHILLIPS: Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Minister of Agriculture. Will families receiving welfare assistance be given priority when it comes to renting garden plots in the government's new rent-a-farm policy?

HON. MR. STUPICH: Applications for these plots were taken as they were received and plots were allotted in the order the applications were received.

MR. SPEAKER: We'll go deeper into the plot tomorrow.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Boo!

Orders of the day.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Dent in the chair.

SUPPLY ACT, NO. 1, 1974

HON. D. BARRETT (Premier): Mr. Chairman, I move that from out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund there be paid and applied a sum not exceeding in the whole $1,875 million towards defraying the several charges and expenses of the public service of the province, not otherwise provided for, and being estimates for the fiscal year ending March l, 1975, as laid before the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia at the present session.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the committee reports resolution and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

MR. SPEAKER: When shall the resolution as reported be considered?

HON. MR. BARRETT: Now, Mr. Speaker.

Hon. Mr. Barrett moves that the report of the resolution from the Committee of Supply on April 9, 1974, be now taken as read and received.

Motion approved.

Hon. Mr. Barrett moves the resolution be now read

[ Page 2353 ]

a second time.

MR. SPEAKER: The resolution is that from and out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund there may be paid and applied a sum not exceeding in the whole $1,875 million towards defraying the several charges and expenses of the public service of the province, not otherwise provided for, and being estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, passed by the Legislative Assembly at this session up to and including the Department of Human Resources and one-quarter of the estimates for the balance of the departments for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, as laid before the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia at the present session.

Motion approved.

House in Committee of Ways and Means; Mr. Dent in the chair.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman, I move that from and out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund there be paid and applied a sum not exceeding in the whole $1,875 million towards defraying the several charges and expenses of the public service of the province, not otherwise provided for, and being estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, passed by the Legislative Assembly at this session up to and including the Department of Human Resources and one-quarter of the estimates for the balance of the departments for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, as laid before the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia at the present session.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the committee reports resolution and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

MR. SPEAKER: When shall the resolution as reported be considered?

HON. MR. BARRETT: Now, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, I move that the report of the resolution from the Committee of Ways and Means on April 9, 1974 be now taken as read and received.

Motion approved.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I move the resolution be now read a second time.

MR. SPEAKER: The resolution is that from and out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund there may be paid and applied a sum not exceeding in the whole $1,875 million towards defraying the several charges and expenses of the public service of the province, not otherwise provided for, and being estimates for the fiscal year ending March 31, 1975, as laid before the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia at the present session.

Motion approved.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker I present Bill 108 intituled Supply Act, No. 1, 1974 and move the said bill be referred to the Committee of the Whole House forthwith.

Motion approved.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Dent in the chair.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman I move the committee rise and report recommending the introduction of the bill.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the committee reports recommending the introduction of the bill.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I move that the report be adopted.

Motion approved.

SUPPLY ACT, NO. 1, 1974

On a motion by Hon. Mr. Barrett, Bill 108, Supply Act, No. l, 1974 read a second time and considered forthwith.

MR. W.R. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we must clearly draw the distinction between the budget estimates and the interim supply bill that we are faced with today….

MR. SPEAKER: Excuse me, you are rising on what point?

MR. BENNETT: I just wish to speak on second reading.

MR. SPEAKER: I see, thank you. I started to put the vote without realizing….

[ Page 2354 ]

MR. BENNETT: Right, I'm awfully slow today.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Member on a point of order.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver–Howe Sound): Do we go through a bill in two stages in one day?

MR. SPEAKER: Yes, under standing order 81.

AN HON. MEMBER: We don't have copies.

MR. SPEAKER: They are being distributed…. Well, I will recess the House for a minute if you want. We have a Member addressing the House at the present time. I point out that they cannot be distributed until the motion is put. I should have actually waited, and I apologize to the House for not waiting, until they were all distributed.

MR. BENNETT: As I said, we've got to draw this distinction between budget and estimates and the interim supply bill that has been introduced to us today.

The budget as presented to this Legislature should always be an accurate document both in the government's income plans and in its spending plans. Now, the budget that was presented in this Legislature last February 11 was clearly not accurate in either the collection or the spending estimates that were put before this House.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): On a point of order. Has consent been given for second reading, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: Yes.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Could I draw your attention, Mr. Speaker, to rule 81 which reads:

"Every bill should receive their several readings on different days, previous to being passed. After the second reading it shall be ordered for committal on a subsequent day. On urgent or extraordinary occasion, a bill may be read twice or thrice or advanced two or more stages in one day."

No explanation has been given for this being an urgent or extraordinary occasion, Mr. Speaker. No argument has been given to you by the leader of the government, the House Leader. Without it, I fail to see how you in your position as Speaker can call more readings than are permitted under rule 81 unless we do, indeed, have some explanation of the extraordinary or urgent circumstances surrounding this particular bill.

MR. SPEAKER: I think it is self-evident that the matter of interim supply after April 1 should be, without argument, accepted by everyone. Certainly it is the duty of the Speaker to consider the urgency of any matter of supply in itself, but primarily in interim supply after April l. The question is certainly clear to anyone who examines it: there must be supply for the public service of British Columbia, whether you're talking about the employees of the government or whether you are talking about those who are in receipt of fixed pensions and other amounts after April 1.

Consequently, there is the discretion in the Chair under standing order 81 to determine whether a matter requires such urgency as it must be advanced more than once on the same day. There are occasions when the Chair has ruled it out. I have citations here I could draw to your attention.

HON. MR. BARRETT: On a point of order.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Maybe the Hon. Minister of Finance could answer your point.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, there is no point of order since we have already passed that point of the business and the Hon. Leader of the Opposition has the floor on second reading. We're past the motion the Member is questioning.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, to distinguish the remarks of the leader of the government, the fact is the point was raised prior to this vote and we're in the situation now where you have stated, Mr. Speaker, there is a need for interim supply. But you've given us no indication as to when the government revenues run out, when interim supply would be necessary, whether it be today, tomorrow, a subsequent day or any other time.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Order!

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: You've given no indication to the House why it was necessary to bring in such a bill at this stage as opposed to yesterday, last Friday, last Thursday. We simply have not had the explanation of urgent or extraordinary occasion….

MR. SPEAKER: I heard your point of order, Hon. Member. I point out to you that we have had a budget speech presented and we have had estimates presented, all of which told you and told me when the fiscal year ran out and when money would be needed for the public service. In addition, the matter

[ Page 2355 ]

was not raised at the proper time on a point of order. The Hon. Leader of the Opposition has been recognized to debate second reading in which we are now engaged.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, there has been no explanation of the urgent or extraordinary occasion. There has been no explanation for this most irregular procedure we are adopting today.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. The Hon. Leader of the Opposition rose to inquire as to when he could speak on second reading. The motion to go to second reading passed unanimously.

AN HON. MEMBER: No!

HON. MR. BARRETT: I think there was a mild voice vote against it. We are already past that point of proceeding. If the Hon. Member can't follow the proceedings, the House cannot be delayed because of his inadequacies.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, the point the Hon. Premier raises is a very good one. The fact of the matter was there was no unanimous consent given for this procedure.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Except for some verbal noises.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Oh, verbal noises….

MR. SPEAKER: May I point out to the Hon. Member it does not require unanimous consent by this method under standing order 81. It has been used on many occasions in this House. I know of several myself and I cite for example March 26, 1953, when the same procedure was followed. You'll see in our Journals of the House that it was done in precisely the same fashion. It's very unusual, I might say, for there to be any debate on an interim supply bill at any time, as you will see in consulting Bourinot. Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER: May I point out to the Hon. Member that we in this House follow a slightly different procedure than they do under the British standing orders. We have our standing order 81 which is quite different from the British standing orders. In that particular we depart from May, unless you want to go back to the 10th edition of May where our practices were similar. I can quote you from those pages of May if you want.

The Hon. Leader of the Opposition has the floor.

MR. BENNETT: You won't clap when I finish.

Interjections.

MR. SPEAKER: Order! Order! You can hardly call it closure when the Hon. Member is trying to make his speech despite your interruptions.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: We've had no unanimous consent to this procedure.

MR. SPEAKER: You don't need it in this House.

Interjections.

MR. BENNETT: I would say just before my remarks that we recognize the urgency of the supply bill. We recognize that the commitment isn't debatable as is the budget and the estimates which are controversial and which I will cover in my remarks. We have no intention of holding up the day-to-day business of this province, the payment of the civil servants or the payment of essential programmes.

Mr. Speaker, I want to preface a short statement here with some remarks to do with the budget and why we are supporting this interim supply bill. I also want to voice again our objection to parts of the budget. We feel the budget as it was presented was not an accurate budget either in the money collected or the money spent.

We refer again to the Education estimates as just an example, where the Minister, after the estimates were passed, announced a grant of an additional $4.8 million for the universities. We further point out that the questions we had as to the accuracy of this budget and the fact that it wasn't a true picture of B.C.'s finances in either collection or spending of moneys is proven by the way this department characterizes this total budget. The school districts were invited to come back to the Department of Education because they admit the moneys allotted to them in this budget were inaccurate, were not enough and were inadequate to meet their needs.

We opposed this budget. As the official opposition we played our historical role in the discussion of the budget by questioning the government's competency in finance. We have raised specific questions. We have said there should have been specific initiatives for housing and we asked for immediate tax reductions by removing the 5 per cent tax from energy fuels, hydro, natural gas bills and oil bills. We called for the 5 per cent tax removal from building supplies also, Mr. Speaker. We proposed a new form of revenue sharing for our municipalities.

We voted against the budget and the total mismanagement and inaccuracies we felt required

[ Page 2356 ]

very specific discussion and debate during estimates. We will be debating the larger amounts of money and the inaccuracies and inadequacy of the budget in estimates when the Minister of Finance returns from his trip to Japan. We feel it is because of the failure of the Premier as Minister of Finance and as House Leader to present an accurate document and to direct it through this House that we are now in the position of passing this interim supply bill.

However, it is not the intention of the official opposition to play political games with the question of interim supply. While we recognize that this situation is brought up by the government's management both of the budget and of this House and has made it necessary that this bill be brought in, we recognize that it is our responsibility to see that the normal, everyday operations of government be allowed to continue and that the salaries and vital programmes are continued in an orderly manner in this province. We have no desire to be political obstructionists, Mr. Speaker.

We've already told the people of British Columbia where we think this budget is a failure and we've already told the people of British Columbia how we think it should have been designed. We've backed up our position with a standing vote. We know the basic and essential services of government must be permitted to continue while the Premier takes his trip to Japan. But we would not be meeting our obligation to the people of British Columbia if we did not support this bill for interim supply and continuity of services within this province. We will support speedy passage of this bill.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, this bill comes to us, having been presented to us in our seats some 5 to 10 minutes ago by the government. It comes to us as a document which reveals pretty clearly the incompetence of the present government and, in particular, the present House Leader in running the affairs of this Legislature.

We have had a budget debate. We have had an adjourned throne debate. Day after day we've had time for discussion of estimates in the regular way. We've had days when this bill could have been presented in the regular and normal manner to the Legislature: put forward one day, then the next day for second reading, third day for committee stage. The bill and the method in which it has been brought in is a clear indication of the incompetence and inability to handle the Legislature of the present House Leader and Premier.

Why do we have delay in estimates? Why do we have the situation which has led us at this stage to consider Supply Act No. 1, 1974? It's pretty clear why we've had that. We've had that because long days were taken while the opposition requested in a very reasoned way the establishment of some sort of public inquiry to look into allegations of improper behaviour by Ministers of the Crown. Day after day these requests were put forward. Day after day they were rejected. Day after day the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Stupich) and the Minister of….

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! May I point out to the Hon. Member that debate is severely restricted in this stage of a supply bill. In fact, may I point out to the Hon. Member that it is now, according to Bourinot, page 442, unusual in the Commons to raise a debate at different stages of a supply bill, although it is perfectly regular to take that course. The debate is restricted to really the question of the advisability of proceeding on the bill at this time, because if you look at the subject matter you are really debating what you've been debating in committee for many days in this House.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Speaker, you know nothing of what is debated in committee, if I may remind you respectfully of a point which you should bear in mind.

The fact is, Mr. Speaker, I am in no way, I think, transgressing on the rules of this House to discuss things which may well have been debated in committee. I think I am in no way transgressing on the rules of this House when I point out that the reason for such a bill being presented to us is, indeed, what took place in committee of which you know nothing, and therefore of which I must remind you at this time.

MR. SPEAKER: May I point out to the Hon. Member that I am not totally unaware of the fact that the estimates go to committee and what are in the estimates, and therefore the resolution is that this bill deal with all the matters that have come down to the Department of Human Resources. I am quite well aware that all these matters can be thoroughly canvassed in committee and obviously have been canvassed in committee, or should have been canvassed in committee, because we are now at the stage of resolution.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, precisely. I'm amazed that you would rule me out of order on discussing one set of estimates when the previous speaker discussed Housing and discussed Education. What is the distinction between that and two other estimates put forward, namely Agriculture and Finance? I find your distinctions difficult to follow.

Mr. Speaker, the bill is here because of a genuine breakdown in the ability of the government to respond to a request, a legitimate request from the opposition for a proper inquiry into improper actions

[ Page 2357 ]

by cabinet Ministers and requests made to the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Stupich), the Minister of Finance, the Premier, and to the Attorney-General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald).

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

AN HON. MEMBER: Order!

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: In addition, it is the result of the inability of the government, with respect to the Minister of Education's (Hon. Mrs. Dailly's) estimates, to put in a document or estimates which in any way reflect meaningfully the expenses of that department.

MR. SPEAKER: May I point out again to the Hon. Member, on a point of order, that the actions of a Minister, whether you may wish to debate it or not, are not properly in the subject matter of debate in second reading of a bill? They would be the matter of the Minister's salary vote in estimates, and therefore to canvass them now would be quite improper in view of the authorities.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, in addition we have $1,875 million in this bill. I find it curious that such a sum of money should come before the House — and before the House for the first time, not before a committee of the House — and that you should adopt such a restrictive interpretation.

I find that this bill…. I have no wish to debate it at great length — probably no more longer, had you not interrupted me, than the Member who preceded me. But I find in this bill the obvious inability of the government to handle the affairs of this House; thus, the bill itself, I think, is a recognition of that fact.

We have had the statement made, Mr. Speaker, that this bill is essential because unless it comes in immediately there will be no pay for civil servants or pensions. Yet we checked the record and we find it is not the case. This bill need not pass today, or even tomorrow, and yet the cheques will be out. Indeed it could pass even later than that and the cheques would be out at exactly the same time as they are always out for the month, the cheques for both Mincome and the civil service.

The Provincial Secretary (Hon. Mr. Hall) shakes his head, but I suggest to him that he consult and check and find out whether it would not be true, as I am sure it will be, that indeed this bill could pass on Thursday. It could have been introduced in the regular fashion. We could have had a normal examination of this piece of legislation in the traditional and normal fashion in accordance with the usage of this House, and at the same time all these cheques could have gone out exactly on time.

The argument put forward is obviously wrong. The fact is that the introduction of the bill and the most curious way the bill came before us, despite lack of unanimous consent at every stage, is a clear indication that the government itself wants no part of any discussion on estimates and indeed the sum of $1,875 million. million.

[Hon. Mr. Lorimer in the chair.]

If indeed we had had accurate estimates put forward by the Minister of Finance, and accurate estimates, in particular for the Minister of Education's (Hon. Mrs. Dailly's) department, and accurate estimates elsewhere where we queried and found it necessary to discuss why it was taking so long — at great length — it would have been a great deal easier to handle the estimates, the estimates undoubtedly would be through at the present time and there would be no need for the House to take its time on such a bill as Bill 108, the Supply Act No. 1, 1974.

We're in the position, as indicated by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bennett), where obviously the funds must be made available for the government despite its mismanagement so that the civil service can continue, government departments can continue and programmes such as the pension programmes can continue. It is obvious that moneys must be granted for those purposes. But for us in the opposition to be willing to discuss with the government introduction of a bill such as this in a reasonable and intelligent way and find instead that we have bills such as this forced upon us all in one sitting so that we have to discuss them only 10 minutes or less after reading them for the first time is even a further admission of the government that they cannot handle the House in a regular manner.

We have had good reason for delay in estimates, reasons such as I have indicated: inability to properly handle the problems of the province in the areas of housing, education and other fields. In addition we've had estimates which have been totally wrong in their figures. Indeed, the government itself has admitted this by its request that people stop criticizing and simply hold back and trust them because at some future time changes will be made.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

The third reason for major delay is very simple. The third reason is government refusal to look into improper conduct by Ministers and charges of that improper conduct.

I think that this is the reason that there has been this most regrettable delay in granting the estimates. We in the opposition cannot sit back when Ministers carry out their duties improperly, use undue influence and do nothing to have this matter properly cleared up. The bill we have before us is one for interim

[ Page 2358 ]

supply. As I said, we will be quite willing to have money granted to the government to continue programmes, cheques for civil servants and other things, but we cannot accept a procedure whereby the proper examination of estimates is not done by the government, when the estimates are not brought on in adequate time and where the government itself knocks off early, as it did all last week, in terms of having these estimates considered, and then comes in with an omnibus bill of this nature designed to get some very large sums of money without the debate that we have been giving the estimates in Committee of Supply.

This bill is a clear admission of failure of a government and Minister of Finance, and Premier and House Leader in particular, in all those particular jobs. We accept it as that and we vote on it for that reason.

HON. MR. BARRETT: What an arrogant hypocrite!

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the Hon. Premier withdraw that? Thank you.

Interjection.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I ask the Hon. Member to withdraw that as well.

Interjection.

MR. SPEAKER: Thank you very much.

MR. G.S. WALLACE (Oak Bay): Mr. Speaker, in our little party we have always thought that our function is to be constructive critics in this House. I would like to echo the words of the official Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Bennett) that our job here is to scrutinize content and criticize mistakes, inadequacies and shortcomings. As I understand it — and I'm no expert on procedure — we really are debating procedure rather than content today.

I would also say that although we hope to be constructive critics, there is perhaps no more important function for an opposition Member or party than the function of scrutinizing the spending and the raising of public moneys.

In supporting this bill on behalf of the Conservative Party, I would say that in no way would this suggest or imply any diminution in the amount of time or intensity of scrutiny which we should be permitted to present on estimates.

It is my clear assumption — and I hope that the Minister of Finance (Hon. Mr. Barrett) will just reassure the House that this is a matter of procedure, for whatever reasons we are faced with it; I'd just like to touch on these in a minute — we will certainly be returning to this House at a later date and have the fullest opportunity to scrutinize further expenditures which have not to date been brought before the House.

At the same time I would have to agree with the leader of the Liberal Party that the affairs of the House have not been well-managed. I would have to agree with both speakers that it has been a very frustrating experience to participate in debate in good faith based on information brought by this government to this House when we have to conclude one of two things: either the government is so incompetent that it doesn't know what the accurate figures are itself; or it knows very well that some of the figures were ill-prepared and inaccurate, but they were prepared to bring them into the House, hoped they would pass muster and the opposition would not realize what was being done. I particularly refer to the Department of Education.

Interjection.

MR. WALLACE: Well, that's unusual for me, but I take the compliment.

Interjection.

MR. WALLACE: I accept your ruling, Mr. Speaker, that we don't rehash the budget debate. I mean to be as brief as possible in my comments.

I think it would be only fair to mention that while we support this bill, I do think all sides of the House collectively should take note of the fact that we are living in a different era in the political history of British Columbia. The amount and the intensity of business with which this House has to deal continues to increase. It is the stated policy of this government to have full-time MLAs. This being the case, I would think all of us as MLAs must face the fact that more and more time will be spent in this House.

There is not only the fact that more legislation generally is being passed but there is the fact that already we have two new departments of government — very important departments — of Consumer Services and Housing which involve substantial sums of money and which will increase, I expect, from year to year.

The individual citizen of society is very deeply influenced by the actions of these Ministers of these departments. It is an inevitable fact that we have to expect not only to spend more time as MLAs on our business in our riding but more time scrutinizing the business of this House with particular reference to financial expenditures.

With respect, we submit that the Premier made the mistake of abolishing the all-night sitting without finding some alternative to dealing with the problem of not having enough time for debate. I am sure he

[ Page 2359 ]

made that mistake in good faith. If I could tread warily, being out of order, I would suggest there is time for the House fairly soon to take a whole new look at its functioning: its rules, the hours it sits, the whole attitude to committee functions and to the basic way in which this House can function most effectively and most efficiently. This cannot be done overnight. I am not suggesting the answers will be simple or rapid in production.

This session has had many frustrations, I'm sure, to both sides of the House. But our first responsibility is to avoid being obstructionist, particularly when the people who would suffer would be the citizens of the province and not necessarily us as MLAs. On that basis, I support the bill.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Premier closes the debate.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I intend to be brief and respond to the three leaders and their comments in this debate.

First of all, the atmosphere in which this bill has been brought I think has been aptly described by the leader of the Conservative Party (Mr. Wallace). It is absolutely true that I did make a conscious decision while I was in opposition that if we became government I would never sit through an all-night sitting again. I don't intend to back down from that particular commitment.

Had we adopted the all-night sitting programme, Mr. Member, you know, of course, that this day would not have arrived in the House. We would have had the situation where the Members would have been exhausted. Those of us who sat through until or 8 o'clock in the morning two or three times during a session knew very well that we were beaten into exhaustive submission by a system that had not been updated at all. I welcome the Member's remarks in terms of updating the system.

I had presumed, somewhat naively, that a gentleman's agreement could still function in what I thought to be a gentleman's House. But I found to my sorrow that there was very little left of gentleman's agreement in terms of the political atmosphere that exists in this very chamber at this time. I welcome that Member's call for a committee to meet and review the rules. I think it is long overdue. The last one, I think was some 35 or 40 years ago.

There has to be a distinction, as the Leader of the Opposition has attempted to make in this House, that this in effect is essentially a technical bill, approving the funds for the estimates that we have already thoroughly debated and giving a 90-day supply of estimates that are yet to be debated.

There also has to be some understanding at some time, at some level of debate in this House, where public business begins and politics ends. I find it is very, very difficult for the Liberal Party to make that distinction even today when thousands of people are depending on the passage of this bill and who have no interest in partisan politics whatsoever but a desire to do a job on behalf of the people of British Columbia.

The official Leader of the Opposition has made it clear that the business of government must go on regardless of the tempest or the pacification of politicians as this House represents. I find it somewhat reprehensible that that Member, (Mr. D.A. Anderson) the leader of a group which has just passed a supply bill in Ottawa and has done it on many occasions under the federal Liberal Party, comes in and presumes there is something different here in this House in this province. The noise, the argument and the interruptions of the leader of the Liberal Party are only an attempt to cover up his guilt for making a foolish mistake in his speech today, attacking what really should be a non-partisan bill to be discussed at a far more sane level.

There has been no absence of politics from day one by that small group. I'm glad the official opposition and the Conservatives have separated themselves on what is essentially a non-political, ongoing government bill that insures the system survives even if the politicians fall by the wayside.

That is the time-honoured tradition of the British parliamentary system. This place was not built for politicians but was built as a House to represent the people and to allow the people's business to flow. As long as I am alive and in politics, the people's interest comes first, not cheap party politics. I welcome the statement of the Leader of the Opposition and the Conservative leader in that particular regard.

Mr. Speaker, I move second reading.

Motion approved unanimously on a division.

Bill 108, Supply Act, No. 1, 1974 read a second time.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to refer Bill 108 to a Committee of the Whole House for consideration forthwith.

Leave granted.

The House in committee; Mr. Dent in the chair.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman, I move that the committee rise and report recommending the introduction of the bill.

AN HON. MEMBER: Wrong line.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! Order, please!

[ Page 2360 ]

Sections 1 and 2 approved.

Preamble approved.

Title approved.

HON. MR. BARRETT: I thought everybody was in a hurry.

Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise and report the bill complete without amendment.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

Bill 108, Supply Act, No. 1, 1974 reported complete without amendment, read a third time and passed.

RESIDENTIAL PREMISES
INTERIM RENT STABILIZATION ACT
(continued)

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Speaker, as I was saying last night before I was so rudely interrupted by the clock, I was supporting the remarks….

Interjection.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Well, that's the way it goes. I was supporting the remarks made by the Hon. Member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Barnes) and the Member for Richmond (Mr. Steves), both of whom have fought very hard for this type of legislation because of the interest they have in their own constituents.

I did quote, too, from the statements of the Member for West Vancouver–Howe Sound (Mr. L.A. Williams) of one year ago when he said that 6 per cent increase in rents was too much and demanded government action. I quoted also his statements of March 11. Last night I asked what happened to the Member's opinions over that short period of time — between now and March 11 — and his statements of a year ago.

But what is really involved in this particular bill is an attempt to give some interim stabilization to the terrible situation we inherited over the lack of rental accommodation in this province.

One of the points made by the Member for Richmond (Mr. Steves) that I think is most appropriate for this bill is the fact that rental accommodation is at its highest occupancy rate ever in the history of this province. Because there is a high occupancy rate, the Member correctly pointed out that there is no risk by the landlord that any one of his particular apartments would go unrented. The old argument that the rent had to be a little bit higher to cover the suites that weren't occupied is no longer valid.

The Member has made that quite clear and also pointed out that, in spite of the problems faced with today's financing, most of the financing of the current housing was done some years ago and the servicing of that financing has not altered under the original mortgage agreement. We had asked for a year; we had asked landlords, through the Minister of Human Resources (Hon. Mr. Levi), to demonstrate to us their individual responsibilities. We had been patient. We asked the House to bring to the Minister's attention any specific examples where rents had been exorbitantly raised, especially for the elderly. The Minister had made public appeals to apartment-block owners not to raise the rents, not to take advantage of the Mincome programme or any other benefit that we were able to share with these elderly.

But we found a growing trend, especially in the last few months of 1973 and the first few months of 1974, of rapidly escalating rents with really no valid reason in terms of the original financing of the rental accommodation. No government could ignore the situation that we were faced with, and the Attorney-General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald) has brought in a reasonable interim bill to allow us to stabilize within the present market the rental situation.

That is in fact exactly what the Member for West Vancouver–Howe Sound called for on March 11. His only criticism, in my opinion, now is that, "For goodness sake. You've gone and done it." Well, Mr. Member, I don't know for what other reason you have changed your mind because here are your words as I quote from Hansard:

We need to have some positive programmes. It may be, Mr. Chairman, that we'll need to have the Minister of Finance stand in his place and say that his government is prepared to freeze rents in the Province of British Columbia…

and that is exactly what I am doing at this particular moment.

…until he can rationalize this difficulty between rising costs on the part of the landlord and the inability of the tenant to pay.

That is exactly what this is: an interim freeze. It's exactly what that Member asked for. Then within a matter of days he stands up and says he is going to vote against it.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: You didn't listen last time.

HON. MR. BARRETT: No. No, it's a reflection of the Liberal attempt not to even support their own ideas, let alone this government.

Now, Mr. Member, you've been hoisted on your own petard if you refer to your own statements of one year ago. We will read Hansard again and again throughout the province. Last night when you were

[ Page 2361 ]

not here and I read it out, your leader said, "Read on." I read on until I got to the period. There is no other interpretation of your remarks other than exactly as you meant them. The government is taking exactly that move and now you want to vote against it.

Be that on your conscience; the words are there. The moving hand, having writ, moves on. That's it. And it's there. I know it won't hurt too much in West Vancouver, but it should be good reading in downtown Vancouver and other areas.

So, Mr. Speaker, I say to you that I am pleased with the conscious, determined, planned and thoughtful efforts of the Attorney-General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald) who has wrestled with this problem all this time, who has been patient, who has been understanding and who finally recommended to the cabinet that this course of action had to be taken as an interim step until we could rationalize the other problems. I fully support the Attorney-General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald) in this regard.

MR. D.M. PHILLIPS (South Peace River): I must say that I am very, very disappointed in the short-sightedness of this bill. It is short-sighted and, unfortunately, when the effects of this bill really hurt those who it intends to help, which are the tenants themselves, the government opposite will not be the government.

Bringing in this bill at this time is, I'll have to say, Mr. Speaker — and I don't like to use the term — a stupid move. It's a very stupid move on the part of the government; it's a foolish move bringing it in in haste. They are trying to solve a problem on behalf of some few tenants who are being gouged at this time. But in the long run you are going to hurt all of the tenants. It's a temporary measure that will probably not be felt for 20 years.

Once you start the flow of investment capital out of the province, you just don't snap your fingers and get the flow reversed. As a matter of fact, in that same regard, there are businesses and people today who went through the Depression and whose investments are still based on that particular era of our economy. This will have the same effect on the construction of new apartment dwellings in the Province of British Columbia.

The Attorney-General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald), in introducing the bill, says that any government with a heart would step in and protect within its power tenants who are suffering intolerable pressures. I would suggest to you, Mr. Speaker, that there are other ways of stopping the gougers.

You may win this little battle of stopping a few gougers and protecting some few tenants who are being gouged but you will lose the overall war where you need to create more accommodation. The only way to solve this problem is to have sufficient supply where the landlords themselves are fighting to bring in tenants.

Surely to goodness, Mr. Speaker, I don't know why this government cannot look at other jurisdictions and see the error of their ways. In any jurisdiction where there have been rent controls, within 10 to 15 years there are slums. The rental accommodation is not kept up, and who suffers in the long run? Maybe not the few tenants of today who you think you may be protecting, but in the long run all tenants will suffer.

You will create in the downtown core of Vancouver a situation which I doubt we will ever recover from. I doubt if we will ever recover from it. And I predict, Mr. Speaker, that there will be not one new major apartment building started and brought under construction after this bill is passed.

The reasons for bringing in this bill, I feel, are overreaction on the part of the two Members for Vancouver-Centre (Mr. Barnes and Hon. Mr. Lauk), who must have had a tremendous amount of influence in their caucus meetings. I don't know what the threats were, but this bill is certainly an overreaction.

Some landlords were adjusting rents. Many of them hadn't adjusted rents for quite some time. During the latter part of 1972 and 1973 many things happened. The cost of labour went up, the cost of materials went up, and then, as a speaker said, early in 1974 rentals increased more so than ever before — faced with what, Mr. Speaker?

Looking at their 1973 financial statements, taking a reading on the excessive costs of maintaining their apartment blocks in 1973, looking at increases in fuel and energy and supplies and another increase in the basic labour rate, these apartment owners had to take a second look.

Maybe there were some gougers. But I also feel that there was a great deal of political pressure to bring this bill in from a man who claims to represent the tenants of British Columbia. He claims to represent some 3,000 tenants in British Columbia. But when you get right down to the nitty-gritty and ask him how many paid up tenants there are in his association, you get far closer, Mr. Speaker, to approximately 1,500.

HON. A.B. MACDONALD (Attorney-General): Is that Bruce Yorke?

MR. PHILLIPS: No, I'm talking about McEwart. Mr. Speaker, there are in British Columbia some 200,000 tenants — some 200,000 suites that are rented in this province. Here is a man who claims to represent all of these tenants, when in reality he represents less than 1 per cent. I would say that he no more represents the tenant association for the tenants of British Columbia than Wall & Redekop represents

[ Page 2362 ]

the apartment owners, or Block Bros. represents the apartment owners.

Interjection.

MR. PHILLIPS: You are the one that's overreacting, Mr. Attorney-General. You are overreacting because of less than 1 per cent…. And of those 1,500 members in that association, how many of them have actually been gouged — all 1,500? You have, Mr. Attorney-General, the right to deal with the gougers in this province; you have a department of consumer affairs. But here again, Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General has overreacted.

There are approximately 1,500 tenement buildings in the lower mainland and 1,100 members of the Tenement Owners Association.

Control on rental accommodation will in no way increase the number or the quality of apartments available for rent. On the contrary, in the long run it will aggravate the situation and make it become intolerable. And when there is no accommodation available and when the accommodation that is used up deteriorates, I want the Attorney-General to realize that it has been this Bill 75 that has caused the situation.

Today, Mr. Speaker, the bulk of the apartment buildings built in British Columbia are not built by the Wall & Redekops or the large developers. They're built by individuals who have to go out on the market to seek investment capital. These people have been under pressure for quite some time due to restrictions in the Landlord and Tenant Act — in the present Act I might say, Mr. Speaker. They're sick and tired of being harassed, and they're going to get out of the business.

They will take their money and their talents and their efforts to a more favourable climate. What is the Attorney-General going to do then? Is he going to bring in a bill to force that money to stay in British Columbia? Are you going to bring in another bill to force those tenant owners to build more apartment buildings? If you're going to drive them out with one bill you require more legislation to keep them in the business.

Interjections.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: You're a prophet of doom and gloom.

MR. PHILLIPS: I want to tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the Attorney-General can talk about doom and gloom, but many of the predictions I have made in this Legislature have come true.

However, there again are the short-sighted policies and the narrow-minded thinking of the Attorney-General. And even when it comes to being,

I doubt if he will be able to grasp the reality of what has happened. He will probably want to blame it on some other world economic situation or something.

What has caused this shortage of accommodation to develop? What has caused it? I've discussed the favourable climate, and I don't refer to the favourable political climate. But what really — and let's be reasonable — what has caused this problem?

I want to tell you that it certainly hasn't been a shortage of mortgage money. It hasn't been a shortage of land. It hasn't been the shortage of contractors to build the buildings. Because British Columbia in the last four years has experienced an overall building boom.

There has been lots of mortgage money and lots of land available to build new retail and wholesale outlets. There has been lots of land and money and contractors available to build warehouse space. There has been lots of land and money available to build condominiums. But why has there not been money put into rental accommodation?

In no way, Mr. Chairman, can you threaten an industry with controls or by sticking your nose into their business and running it for them, and expect them to enlarge on that business. It's just human nature.

Canada was probably one of the best housed nations in the world. Apartment builders provided more services to their tenants than apartment builders anywhere else in the world. Not only did they provide accommodation with heat and electricity, but in many instances this accommodation was furnished, and furnished well — complete with television, radio, stove and refrigerator. Nowhere else in the world did this happen.

Why? Because of the existing legislation. There was no interference. It was a case of supply and demand. There was no restrictive legislation and that is why Canada was the best housed nation in the world.

This situation will cease, and the results of lack of construction this year will be felt in this province for years to come. What good is a five-year deal on no rental increase, a five-year deal with no restrictions? Mortgage money is signed for a period of 20 to 25 years. If you were building an apartment and had to put your name on the line for $300,000, $400,000 or $1 million for over a period of 20 to 25 years — in some cases 30 to 40 years — would you be happy with being guaranteed that someone was going to keep their nose out of your business for only five years? You're putting your signature on the line for four and five times that amount of time.

It's a shame that policies like this have to be brought in as a stopgap measure to try and alleviate a situation that exists. We see that when the government goes out and starts to build a small unit, whether it be an old folks' home or a co-op, and

[ Page 2363 ]

maybe there are 300 or 400 units in this particular deal or sometimes only 75, it's flashed over the papers and there's big publicity given to them. But if only 50 of the apartment owners in the Province of British Columbia each started to build a 50-unit suite, which is a very small percentage of the owners starting to build reasonably small suites, that would provide 2,500 units of accommodation. This was going on year after year after year with no fanfare. Rental accommodation was being supplied.

Today, Mr. Speaker, with this restrictive legislation, it would be far better for these people to put their money in the bank and draw bank interest. Small apartment owners usually have other interests and are not wanting to be troubled with their tenants. This is why there is a better relationship in 90 per cent of the accommodations in British Columbia.

By this legislation, you automatically set up a restrictive measure between the tenant and the landlord and the battle is on. Where peace existed before, this legislation creates a situation which automatically puts these two normal people apart. These small apartment owners will take their money elsewhere.

The average tenant stays in an apartment approximately 14 months. That is the average. Some stay four months, some stay four years, but the average, worked out statistically, is 14 months. Apartment dwellers are basically mobile and this is partly due to the mobile society that we live in. Young married couples rent apartment suites because of job mobility. In many cases, two young single girls will get together and they have to move as soon as one of them gets married because it changes the accommodation. Senior citizens lose one of the partners and then the other goes to live with the family. But the average is 14 months.

What is going to happen in three or four years when the situation goes from zero to less than zero? Where is this mobile population going to find accommodations? What will be the situation then — all created by this bill, Mr. Speaker? There will be a black market developed in rental accommodation. The heart of that black market I predict will be right in the heart of downtown Vancouver. This has happened in other jurisdictions. If a young couple or an older couple want to get an apartment, it will be a $200 bill under the table.

That will be the result of this restrictive legislation. Inequities will take place. The people who truly need to get into an apartment, and who haven't got that $200 bill to slip under the table, will be the ones who will suffer. They will be the ones who will suffer — the ones who can least afford it, the ones that don't know how to deal, the ones that don't have any friends in the owners.

What you are doing by this legislation in the long run is hurting the very people that you're trying to save. You're hurting the very people that you want to save by a short-sighted policy on the part of this government — overreaction. What we should have had are policies to encourage people back into the apartment field. Incentives should have been brought in to encourage risk money into the apartment field.

If you want to help the apartment owner, go to direct rental subsidization to the individual. Let him choose where he shall stay.

Interjection.

MR. PHILLIPS: Subsidize the gouger. Well, there you go. There goes the Minister of Labour (Hon. Mr. King) putting all of the apartment owners in one basket. But this is typical of this government because they like to take one big business and then group all of the majority of the good independent businessmen in with that one gouger. You like to put everybody in the same basket.

Unfortunately, if the Attorney-General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald) had but looked at the Province of Alberta where today there is a vacancy rate of approximately 8 per cent…. He should have taken the time to go to Alberta and to meet with the apartment owners and the apartment builders in that province, and say, "How come you're building apartments here when you're not building them in downtown Vancouver with a much better climate, with less upkeep, with less cost of maintaining, with much better weather conditions, no frost heaves?" No, he's pressured by the Member for Vancouver Centre to bring in this short-sighted legislation, and he'll regret it until the day he dies.

In the Province of Alberta, with an occupancy rate of 8 per cent, 8 times what it is in British Columbia, apartment buildings are being started again and again. Money is being put into the Province of Alberta to provide rental accommodation and tenement buildings. Why? Because the builders in Alberta realize that you have to build at today's costs and you have to subsidize these buildings from three to five years before the cash flow starts levelling out so that they don't have a deficit cash flow.

This is more so in a situation where the vacancy rate is 8 per cent. Why didn't the Attorney-General go and find out why? Did the Attorney-General meet with the tenement owners and the landlords in British Columbia?

Oh, just a minute, Mr. Speaker. I realize that they put in recommendations to the Law Reform Commission, but did you find out the real reasons the rents are going up? Did you find out? Did you meet with the association? Or did you just listen to the tenants' association?

Maybe the Attorney-General doesn't really want to know the truth? Maybe he doesn't want to hear the truth. Because here we have the Province of

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British Columbia with practically a zero vacancy rate and no apartment starts — and the Province of Alberta with an 8 per cent vacancy rate and lots of apartment starts. What is the difference?

You can talk maybe about a little higher costs in the lower mainland, but I point out to you that the higher costs in building in Alberta with the climatic conditions and the extra insulations they have to put in…. They're much higher in the Province of Alberta. So that isn't the answer.

No, the answer is that there is a more favourable political climate in the Province of Alberta.

In a high vacancy rate, Mr. Speaker, who wins? Naturally it's the tenant who wins, because the landlords are fighting among themselves to get tenants to come in. What do they do? They build better accommodation; they put in better furniture; they entice them in with swimming pools, with sauna baths, with game rooms. Sure, they're after the business; they've got a vacancy rate.

But what happens when the vacancy rate drops to zero? It's the tenant who suffers. So if you really wanted to help the tenant, you would have brought in more rent subsidization to make the climate in British Columbia reasonable so that more apartment buildings would have been built.

There are three types….

Interjection.

MR. PHILLIPS: I don't need any smart remarks from you, Mr. Member for Kamloops (Mr. G.H. Anderson), who isn't even in his own seat. And it's you who will suffer too. Unfortunately, as I said, they won't be government when the true effects of this legislation fall upon the tenants of this province. They won't be in government. I'll have to straighten out the mess they leave behind.

There are three types of persons who build rental accommodation. No. 1 is the contractor who builds it and sells. Under today's legislation, the contractor can still build, but who's going to buy it? No. 2, there is the builder-developer who builds; sometimes he sells and sometimes he keeps. But he still has to have investment capital. He's having trouble getting it today.

Then there is the true landlord, Mr. Speaker, who buys and wants to own and wants to provide a service for a fee to those who want to rent his accommodation. The bulk of those are the very persons that this legislation is going to drive out of the business. The true landlord who buys an apartment building and who enjoys providing that service — and it is 90 per cent of the accommodation that is supplied in British Columbia…. I'll bet the relationship between the renter and the landlord is 100 per cent.

These are the type of people who are trying to build up an equity for themselves in real estate, who are not that interested in making a rush profit, but want to provide something that they can sell for their retirement years and receive a benefit from it. That is the type of person that is providing approximately 90 per cent of the rental accommodation in British Columbia.

Unfortunately, this legislation discourages all three types of persons who build apartment buildings. But I would suggest that the Attorney-General would have been far better off to go after the gougers. Go after the gouger. You have a Department of Consumer Services. Just because there are gougers in the roofing industry, does that mean that the whole roofing industry is rotten? No, absolutely not. You've got gougers and gyppo artists among door-to-door salesmen. But does that mean that all door-to-door salesmen are gyppo artists? No. You don't ruin the entire industry. .

You've had gougers and rip-off artists in the used automobile business. But that doesn't mean that all dealers are crooked. You've had them in the automatic transmission repair business when it first came in. There were gougers and rip-off artists in that. But did you slam and bring in legislation to curtail the whole industry? Absolutely not.

We just recently had a gouger in the meat supply business. But there are many, many meat suppliers who are supplying meat for home freezers who are perfectly legitimate businessmen.

HON. MR. MACDONALD: We've got a gouger in this debate.

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, we certainly need a gouger in this debate. We need to point out to the Attorney-General the error of his ways.

Last year it was the government who set a lot of the new standards. It was the government who brought in new labour rates. It was the government who brought in a 15 per cent pay raise for ferry workers. It was the government who brought in a lot of the inflation that happened in the year 1973.

Now because this inflation is hitting at the landlords and they've had to raise their rents in many instances, then this restrictive legislation is brought in on them. They're facing fuel increases this year. They're facing the costs of material increases. Yet they're only allowed an 8 per cent raise in their rental accommodation fee. Inflation alone will be more than 8 per cent.

I don't understand how the 8 per cent can be justified in the first place. And that 8 per cent will be on for one year, because it is retroactive until January 1 and it will be approximately six months before the new Landlord and Tenant Act is brought into force.

So we have in the year 1974 the 8 per cent freeze on the price of rental accommodation, when fuel

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itself is predicted to go up 30 per cent, labour will go more than 8 per cent, the cost of materials and lumber and paint and the price of plumbers and electricians and TV repairmen and small appliance repairmen will go more than 8 per cent. So how can this be justified?

It is the small independent landlord that is being caught. New construction will be free of controls under this legislation, Bill 75, for one year. Well, you mark my word that any rental accommodation made available in that year will be sufficiently high that they won't have to worry about any 8 per cent freeze. If you were opening up an apartment building today and knew that you had only one year, and after that there were going to be regulations on the amount of money you could charge for that rental accommodation, you would be doubly sure that you charged ample.

Who's going to be hurt again? Who's going to be hurt? It's going to be the people in this province who are seeking rental accommodation. The people who haven't presently got it, the people who are looking for it, be they young married couples or elderly people: they are going to be paying through the nose for new rental accommodation that comes on stream in 1974. You mark my words.

Is that going to help the tenant? Supposing that there are some apartment buildings started next year, which I predict there won't be, but suppose there were. What's going to happen? What's the price of that rental accommodation going to be when it comes on stream? You can mark my words that it's going to be 30 or 40 per cent higher than it would have been had this legislation not been brought into this House.

You cannot legislate compatibility, Mr. Speaker, between people. You cannot legislate compatibility between a tenant and a landlord. You can't even legislate compatibility in marriage, and yet this government by Bill 75 is trying to legislate compatibility between the landlord and the tenant. And it can't be done. You know it and I know it.

This law, this bill, will do absolutely nothing to cure the shortage of rental accommodation, Mr. Speaker, but it will make sure there is a shortage of rental accommodation in British Columbia for years to come. In 10 or 20 years from now we will be digging ourselves out from the chaos in rental accommodation in British Columbia that will be caused by this very Act.

In many areas where people have had accommodation for a period of years, the rate hasn't been adjusted because they've been a long-time renter. In a building where they might be renting a suite for $350 the price of that suite is only going to go up 8 per cent. In that same building — and this is actual Mr. Speaker — where the occupancy of a similar suite has changed in the previous year, the rent has been adjusted and new people have moved in. Who is going to suffer the majority of the increase? It is going to be 8 per cent of $450, and that is more than 8 per cent of $350. That's why this legislation won't work.

Had you even had an overall percentage increase within the building…. Because disparities within the building do develop, and they develop because when a new building goes on stream tenants are vying for positions within that building. Some people want to be on the third floor and some on the tenth, and finally you get a person who wants to be on the twelfth and there's only one on the seventh so you reduce the rent to get occupancy and to get your apartment building into operation. Some of these are adjusted when they become vacant, and all this week's in a column with the same view are rented for the same amount.

But today in British Columbia, in new apartments that have come on stream in the last three or four years, there are disparities within a particular block. This 8 per cent is going to make it so that the owner of that apartment building will never be able to do away with the disparities that exist.

That, Mr. Speaker, is just one more reason why this is poor legislation. My heart is sad, really, when I see this type of legislation forced upon this great province of ours. It is a short-sighted method of solving a problem that has developed just in the past two years. I say that if you were to look at other jurisdictions today where there is a higher vacancy rate, there is no restrictive legislation, because the renter is in a buyer's position. He had freedom of choice and it is the landlords who are fighting among themselves to sell their product.

In the situation that exists in British Columbia today it is the tenants who are fighting among themselves to buy accommodation, and this bill will only aggravate the situation. As I said before, Mr. Speaker, I predict that one of the greatest black market situations in apartment buildings in any city in Canada will develop in the City of Vancouver in the very near future.

And Mr. Speaker, I'm doing some research on it — I haven't the figures available today — but cities throughout the world that have the highest suicide rate also have the poorest accommodation. They don't have the amenities of life. And one of the first amenities of life for any person is decent accommodation, food for his stomach and clothes for his back. When decent accommodation is not available, people lose heart and they become despondent. Is this what is going to happen in downtown Vancouver?

I regret that this piece of legislation was tabled in this House. I'm sorry that constructive legislation could not have been brought in that would really have improved the situation, Mr. Speaker. It is just more short-term, incompetent legislation brought in

[ Page 2366 ]

by the government, and I regret that this group who today are in opposition will have to clean up the mess someday.

MR. C.S. GABELMANN (North Vancouver–Seymour): The former speaker in this debate must have been absent from this Legislature for some time because he suggested that the government wasn't taking any other action to clean up the mess that we inherited from the previous government. He must have missed the fact that for the first time we're putting millions of dollars into housing to try to begin to turn this problem around.

He must have missed the fact that the Attorney-General the other day, very recently in fact, introduced new legislation for landlord-tenant relations. I'm sorry that Member hasn't been paying very much attention this session because if he were he would have known that we are beginning to try to turn around the housing crisis in this province.

MR. PHILLIPS: If you took the whole budget you couldn't supply 10 per cent of the homes.

MR. GABELMANN: That Member, Mr. Speaker, spent much of his time during the 20 or 30 minutes or longer that he spoke repeating a comment that it was the Member or Members for Vancouver-Centre (Hon. Mr. Lauk and Mr. Barnes) who had been putting pressure on the Attorney-General and putting pressure on the government to bring in a rent freeze or legislation to limit the kind of exorbitant rentals that were being charged in Vancouver.

I would like to point out to that Member and to the House that it is not just in Vancouver Centre, not just in the City of Vancouver, but it is everywhere in this province where there are large groups of renters.

I admit that there aren't very many renters in all the Social Credit ridings. They don't have very many renters. They all come from non-urban areas by and large and they don't understand the problem.

I have sat through this debate since its beginning yesterday and I've listened to the Social Credit contributions to the debate, and it has become abundantly clear to me that they don't have a clue as to what kind of problems tenants face.

You know, then they talk about them being the businessmen. Now I know why so many of the business projects of the Social Credit government failed, why Wenner Gren was around, why the Columbia River failed. They don't understand simple business practices. I was one of those people in the public out there who had been conned a little bit by the former Premier (Hon. Mr. Bennett) when he boasted about being the only one who understood business — and I thought he did. But it is pretty clear to me that that group doesn't understand it.

They talk about inflation being more than 8 per cent, that the cost of fuel is going up by more than 8 per cent, the cost of maintenance, the cost of repairs — all the things that presumably, in their minds, go into the cost of a suite. In fact, Mr. Speaker, the main cost that goes into a suite is the mortgage cost, and there hasn't been any inflation on their mortgage because mortgage rates have been fixed. That's the main cost and there is no inflation on those charges.

I thought the Member for Richmond (Mr. Steves) yesterday made that point clear, but obviously it takes a lot of teaching for some of those so-called business people. They just don't understand simple arithmetic.

One of the problems we have in my riding, and one of the problems we have throughout the lower mainland, is that apartment buildings are being purchased and repurchased, sold and sold again, because of the increasing value of property on the lower mainland. What happens is that new mortgages are taken out on those new purchases and the tenant is expected to pay for those new mortgages. That practice has, in large measure, been responsible for the increases that have been occurring since approximately last September and October, particularly in my riding.

It is interesting to me that the debate on this legislation has really divided basically between the three parties on that side and ourselves on the question of free enterprise; and that's as it should be. The three opposition parties seem to believe that a free market system — with some subsidies for some people — will solve the housing crisis. That's been proven in other jurisdictions throughout Europe and other jurisdictions in North America not to be the case.

In the late 1960s that same trend began to become evident here in British Columbia. It just is not profitable for private capital to invest in housing for middle- and low-income people. It just is not possible. That's something we as a government have begun to understand that the other parties have not begun to understand. That is the problem we have to deal with.

The Member for South Peace River (Mr. Phillips) talked about gouging. Auto dealers may gouge and other groups in society may gouge but the government doesn't bring in limitations to them. Well, it's not the same relationship if he's being gouged by an auto dealer as compared to his landlord, or if being gouged by a magazine seller on his doorstep as compared to his landlord. He doesn't have to buy that magazine; he doesn't have to drive that automobile. But he does have to live somewhere. One of the things we have recognized as a government is that there are a few essentials in society, and housing is one of those essentials. We're going to do something about it too.

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): When?

[ Page 2367 ]

MR. GABELMANN: We have begun that process. I don't know what you think that $100 million is for in the housing budget; I don't know what you think the new landlord-tenant legislation is all about. But if you don't think those are beginnings, then you don't know what's happening on this side of the House.

Interjections.

MR. GABELMANN: It's $100 million more than you ever put in or even thought about putting in.

I could go on reading letters like the Member for Richmond (Mr. Steves) did because I have a desk full of them as well. During this session, I spent most of my time going back to my constituency on weekends and meeting with tenants because that has been the major issue in my riding. I have met with literally dozens and dozens of tenants, representing hundreds of others, who see as their major problem in society today the fact that their rents are increasing by 20 per cent, 25 per cent and 30 per cent. We can't allow that to go on. This legislation is essential to control that problem.

I was glad to know a few weeks ago that a colleague of mine on the North Shore, the Member for West Vancouver–Howe Sound (Mr. L.A. Williams), was calling for a rent freeze of sorts. He understood the problem; he had been to some of those meetings in West Vancouver.

Three or four weeks ago he talked about supporting a freeze. Yesterday afternoon he said: "I certainly will not support the 8 per cent freeze because, Mr. Attorney-General, it's an incompetent piece of legislation."

If he is going to let the problem of the tenants continue because he feels it's an incompetent piece of legislation, I say that's a dereliction of his duty to the tenants in his riding who are demanding of all of us that we act to provide some kind of protection for them.

Whether the 8 per cent figure is the correct one or not, I don't know. It's my view that it's far too high, if anything at all, and that a 4 or 5 per cent limit would probably be sufficient. But in case it isn't sufficient, Mr. Speaker, we've made it at 8 per cent, and I think that that's a good decision in the interim measure. I'm absolutely confident that, come the full working of the new landlord-tenant legislation, we won't ever again have to bring in this kind of legislation. That will please me very much. In the meantime, I'm very happy to support the legislation. I'm sure the vast majority of the people out there agree with that. Thank you.

MR. G.B. GARDOM (Vancouver–Point Grey): There's no question of a doubt that there is a crisis. I understand the Premier is all rushed and he's looking at his clock. He's thinking of his trip to dear old Sayonara land and all of those pleasant things. Just bear with me for a bit.

There is a crisis in rental accommodation, Mr. Speaker, and there are some very startling figures from Central Mortgage and Housing dealing with multiple-family starts in urban centres. The figures for January and February of last year showed 942 starts. The figures for January and February of this year, 1974, show 779 starts — a decrease of 163 that represents a 17 per cent drop. The figure I'm referring to also includes condominiums and strata titles. So for all practical purposes, apartment building in the Province of British Columbia has come to a full stop. It's come to a full stop as a result of the policies that have been enunciated by this government.

I feel the government's principal job is to provide incentives for housing and to encourage housing. This bill is quite contrary to that. Instead of providing low-interest funds for the private sector to become involved in housing projects or reasonable provincial depreciation allowances, you've come in with something that just boils down to economic meddling. In effect this bill is a complete redundancy in view of the one that was introduced a few days ago by the Attorney-General, Bill 105.

I think there should be an encouragement for landlords to keep their rented premises reasonably safe and in comparably good order. I rather like the good neighbour law. I think there should be tax allowances for beautification and improvements and safety features over bare maintenance, and those tax allowances could be to a defined or to an agreed amount. But this bill is a very, very poor substitute for financial planning. As I've just said, it's fuzzy economics and certainly meddling with the law of supply and demand.

When the bill came in on its first day, I asked the Hon. Attorney-General: "Are you going to restrict tax increases in the Province of B.C. to the level of this bill?" He came up with a rather profound absurdity: "Refer that to the Premier," or someone else than himself in the cabinet branch for answers.

All of the costs that are being experienced today are being experienced by landlords, and they're all in the upward spiral. Taxes are going up; insurance is going up; insurance premiums through the Insurance Corporation of B.C. are increasing. The Premier has seen fit to increase the price of natural gas 17 per cent at the consumer level. Electricity is going up; supplies are going up; labour costs more; maintenance costs more.

If there's an intention to freeze, why not a freeze upon all of society as opposed to just the landlords? Why simplistically yank them out of the hat and say they shall have to bear the total penalty? They're facing all of these increased costs this government is imposing in taxes throughout the Province of B.C.

To me, this bill is just a salve to the Members of

[ Page 2368 ]

COPE and many of their ilk who hope to use this as a springboard into municipal and city councils in this province in the next municipal and city election. It's a very clear indication of one fact: the muscle of the radicals in the NDP caucus are being felt. When the Attorney-General was on the golden haggis programme about four weeks ago, he made statements to the effect that there wouldn't be rent controls in the Province of British Columbia. Now we find this very, very hard turn to the left. It's certainly obvious who's wagging the dog insofar as this government is concerned.

Here's a letter that just came in a day or two ago to me from a landlord. I'm going to read excerpts of it. They say on the first of June that they bought an eight-suite converted apartment block containing four one-bedroom suites, three bachelor suites and one studio.

"It's a small block located near the Vancouver General Hospital. The fully self-contained suites are on the whole nicely appointed with coloured appliances and plumbing, hardwood floors, wall-to-wall carpets in halls and staircase, hot water heating, efficient hot water supply, automatic washer and dryer service and so forth. The rents are very reasonable, if not outright low.

"Trying to patch up the usual wear and tear of the building, my husband and myself put in about 200 hours in two months of hard work without pay. We know that if things are going in the way they go now, namely 'play up to tenants for politically-motivated reasons and harass the landlord,' we will have to abandon our small block because there is no way to keep up our payments.

"My husband and myself worked throughout our adult life hard on full-time jobs for an average pay of $1 an hour without the benefit of Canada Pension Plan or the protection of a union. By living at a very modest level, until two years ago we never had a car. Yet we raised our children to be decent, responsible members of today's society.

"We managed to put aside some money for old age. That money is now invested in this block and has a large mortgage upon it, of course. If our life savings are going to be destroyed by harsh legislation, then there is nothing to lose any more for us."

Finally, let me say that the situation as outlined above is a sample situation of many landlords who now, as we fully agree, are carrying a burden that properly belongs to society.

That's the point I made earlier on. Surely to goodness, if this measure is as needful as the government claims it is, it should not be saddled only on to the landlord. It's onto all landlords, the little and the small. Here's a classic example of people who are little people in every sense of the word, who have literally worked their guts out in the Province of British Columbia in an attempt to take care of themselves and not fall upon the so-called generosity of the welfare state. These people are being penalized, and I don't think that is correct at all.

MR. WALLACE: I finally made it. The Attorney-General talked about freezing last night and it seemed to me that that's the problem with the bill. Freezing only dulls the pain; it doesn't cure the disease. It's a little bit like — if I can draw a medical comparison — where you diagnose appendicitis but instead of operating on the problem you just give the patient something for the pain. This particular measure, we believe, is not dealing with the problem. I'll try to avoid repetition of all the other speakers, but the problem is clearly one of supply.

There's been repeated repetition of the almost zero vacancy rate in apartments, and the real answer is to provide more units. I would suggest that what we need is a crash programme in the province, and in the Housing debate $50 million was the figure we discussed. Numerous Members of the opposition made it very plain that what we really needed was $500 million to keep up with the rate of increase of rental units that was really required to keep up with the rate of increase of population.

There's a 3 per cent increase generally in the province. I have clippings somewhere that make it very plain that in some parts of the province it is a great deal greater than that. Prince George, for example, is around 8 per cent, and Prince Rupert is climbing at the rate of 5 per cent. That's the Province on February 2 this year.

So to attempt to use this kind of very partial, inadequate solution to the problem When the problem is very clearly one of supply…. There's an inadequate number of new rental units, and without rehashing old ground, the facts were brought out in the debate on the Minister's estimates on Housing that the plans are not keeping up; the plans for new units are not keeping up with the demand.

I would just like to respond to one of the comments of the Member for Richmond (Mr. Steves) last night about some of the large increases in rent which have been imposed. I would suggest one point, Mr. Speaker, that hasn't been touched upon. One of the reasons that so many landlords have abused their right to raise rent was in anticipation of restrictive legislation. I would suggest, with respect, that the government should have been saying less in public and doing more behind the cabinet doors to draw up the legislation and bring it in quickly. One of the reasons that so many landlords seem to have taken these actions is simply in anticipation of knowing that there would be some form of rent restriction,

[ Page 2369 ]

and the degree of that restriction was unpredictable. Therefore it is not much help for the Member for Richmond to scream about some of these unjustly high increases — which I agree are unjust — when in point of fact they have been precipitated in some measure by the government's statements in public that there would be restrictive legislation forthcoming. But the property owners did not know when it would be forthcoming or to what degree it would restrict their income-earning capacity.

I think that the government should have acted either more quickly with a specific Landlord and Tenant Act such as was brought in yesterday, or they should have kept quiet at least until they were able to bring it in and thwart anticipated large increases in rent.

The other point that has been raised is…. Are we running out of time, Mr. Speaker?

MR. SPEAKER: There is about a minute left, I think.

MR. WALLACE: Well, I doubt if I can say what I have to say in one minute, Mr. Speaker. Would it be acceptable to the House if I adjourn the debate until the next sitting of the House?

Motion approved.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, there will be a short recess in expectation of His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor entering the chamber shortly. Please do not leave the chamber.

The House took recess at 5:39 p.m.

The House resumed at 5:41 p.m.

MR. SPEAKER: Hon. Members, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor is about to enter the chamber. Will you all please stand?

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor entered the chamber and took his place in the chair.

MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour:

We, Her Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Legislative Assembly of the Province of British Columbia in session assembled, approach Your Honour with sentiments of unfeigned devotion and loyalty to Her Majesty's person and government and humbly beg to present for Your Honour's acceptance Bill 108, intituled Supply Act No. 1, 1974.

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: In Her Majesty's name His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth thank Her Majesty's loyal subjects, accept their benevolence, and assent to this bill.

His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor was pleased to retire from the chamber.

MR. R.T. CUMMINGS (Vancouver–Little Mountain): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present the second and third reports of the Select Standing Committee on Standing Orders and Private Bills, and I move that the reports be read and received.

Motion approved.

CLERK OF THE HOUSE: Report 2, Legislative Committee Room, April 9, 1974. Mr. Speaker: The Select Standing Committee on Standing Orders and Private Bills begs leave to report as follows: That the preamble to Bill 51, intituled An Act to Amend the British Columbia School Trustees Association Incorporation Act has been proved and the bill ordered to be reported without amendment. All of which is respectfully submitted, Roy Cummings, Chairman.

Report 3, Legislative Committee Room, April 9, 1974, Mr. Speaker: The Select Standing Committee on Standing Orders and Private Bills begs leave to report as follows: That the preamble to Bill 50, intituled An Act to Amend the Vancouver Charter has been proved and the bill ordered to be reported with amendments. Pursuant to standing order 113, your committee directs attention to the fact that the proposed sections 48 and 49 were not advertised by the petitioners.

The committee requests that the said sections be advertised prior to their consideration in committee. Such advertising was duly completed and an appropriate affidavit relating thereto filed with the Clerk of the House.

All of which is respectfully submitted, Roy Cummings, Chairman.

MR. CUMMINGS: I move that the rules be suspended and the report adopted.

Motion approved.

MR. E.O. BARNES (Vancouver-Centre): I beg leave to have resolution 18 standing in my name on the order paper removed.

Leave granted.

Hon. Mr. Barrett moves adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 5:46 p.m.