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CONTENTS

Thursday, March 21, 1974
Afternoon sitting

Routine proceedings

Oral questions

Filing date of annual statement, Glenshiel hotel. Mr. Chabot — 1439

Short-term snow removal contracts. Mr. D.A. Anderson — 1440

BCHA-RNABC dispute. Mrs. Jordan — 1440

Report on transportation of Sukunka coal. Mr. L.A. Williams — 1440

Possible purchase of Tweed Line Tours Ltd. Mr. Curtis — 1440

Surrey request for neighbourhood improvement aid. Mr. McClelland — 1441

Proposed legislation on foreign landownership in B.C. Mr. Gibson — 1441

Federal-provincial cost sharing in paving the Alaska highway. Mr. Phillips — 1441

Percentage of ICBC insurance risk laid off to out of province companies. Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1441

ICBC private salvage depots. Hon. Mr. Strachan — 1441

Possible change in B.C. Ferries souvenir and gift shops. Mr. Curtis — 1442

White Paper on education. Mr. D.A. Anderson — 1442

Autoplan rates for handicapped persons. Mrs. Jordan — 1443

Federal-provincial DREE negotiations on B.C. northwest. Mr. L.A. Williams — 1443

Other possible areas for DREE agreements. Mr. Phillips — 1443

Privilege

Possible conflict between message bill and terms of reference of committee. Mr. Speaker's ruling — 1443

Mr. McClelland — 1444

Mr. Smith — 1444

Mr. Speaker — 1444

Routine proceedings

Committee of Supply: Department of Education estimates

on vote 39.

Mrs. Webster — 1444

Mr. Schroeder — 1448

Mr. McGeer — 1452

Mr. McClelland — 1452

Hon. Mrs. Dailly — 1452

Mr. Dent — 1454

Mr. L.A. Williams — 1456

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 1459

Mr. McGeer — 1460

Hon. Mrs. Dailly — 1463

Mr. Curtis — 1464

Mr. Rolston — 1466

Hon. Mrs. Dailly — 1470

Petition

Mr. Clerk's report — 1471

THURSDAY, MARCH 21, 1974

The House met at 2 p.m.

Prayers.

HON. D. BARRETT (Premier): Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the government, I wish to express publicly our appreciation for the attendants around the Royal Family, and publicly express thankfulness that neither Princess Anne nor her husband were wounded in that attack yesterday.

HON. E. HALL (Provincial Secretary): Mr. Speaker, seated on the floor of the chamber today is one of British Columbia's senior public servants. It's my pleasure to introduce him to the Legislature and to ask the Legislature to welcome him. He is Rear-Admiral Mickey Stirling, the Agent-General from the United Kingdom, who has been spending some time with the Ministers on his annual visit back home. He spent this morning with my colleague, the Minister of Industrial Development (Hon. Mr. Lauk), and will be spending some time with other of my cabinet colleagues.

Rear-Admiral Stirling comes from a family in the Okanagan which has given a great deal of public service to this province, his father being a Member of Parliament in Canada from the Okanagan. I am assured by our Agent-General that in recent months he has not been working a three-day week, but indeed has been working the usual overtime that we expect from the Stirling family. I welcome the Rear-Admiral on behalf of the Legislature.

MS. R. BROWN (Vancouver-Burrard): Mr. Speaker, sitting in the gallery today are 39 visitors who are part of the Cross-Reach Senior Adult Day-Care. Programme. This programme was started by the Holy Trinity Anglican, the Fairview Presbyterian, the Canadian Memorial Church and the Fairview Baptist Church in 1972. The basic philosophy of this programme, Mr. Speaker, is that the quality of life for all persons should remain at the highest possible level, and to that end the programme is trying to ensure that the older people with whom they work maintain their personhood. For this reason I would like this House to join me in saying welcome to them.

HON. W.S. KING (Minister of Labour): In the gallery today 'we have two distinguished visitors from the City of Revelstoke, Mr. and Mrs. Arthur Parker. Mr. Parker was a former alderman in the City of Revelstoke. His son is now the mayor of that city, and his wife, the former Mrs. Kelly, has the distinction of having a son, the Member for Omineca, represent that part of the country in the Legislature. I would ask the House to extend a warm welcome to Mr. and Mrs. Parker.

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): As you know, today is the first full day of beautiful spring in beautiful British Columbia…

HON. MR. BARRETT: Aye.

MRS. JORDAN: …and I see that I and the other ladies are recipients of lovely daffodils. I really don't know who to thank, but I would thank whoever is responsible, I'm sure, on behalf of all the ladies and say that we all stand as ladies in this Legislature for equality of women, but we do enjoy the fringe benefits of being ladies.

MR. H.A. CURTIS (Saanich and the Islands): I confess to the deed with pleasure, to present….

MRS. JORDAN: Sir Galahad.

MR. CURTIS: Well now, I…Mr. Speaker, I wouldn't take it quite that far. (Laughter.) Nevertheless, on this first full day of spring, I think it's appropriate to honour our lady Members with something representative of the beautiful riding of Saanich and the Islands. Reports to the contrary from the mainland notwithstanding, this is the daffodil capital of the world, and certainly we're very happy to greet the ladies today.

I would say also, Mr. Speaker, with your permission, that on the basis of the progress of the session, these will be followed by summer annuals and chrysanthemums in season. (Laughter.)

HON. W.L. HARTLEY (Minister of Public Works): I would like to ask the House to welcome three special guests of mine from Hope. For these gentlemen the privileges and rights of citizenship have a particular significance: Alderman Frank Araki, Toshio Mukaida, and Chester Pielak. I ask you to welcome them.

HON. R.A. WILLIAMS: (Minister of Lands, Forests and Water Resources): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave of the House to table reports: (1) The Eden Fire Board of Review of the British Columbia Forest Service, with respect to the Eden Fire at Salmon Arm last year; and (2) books 1 and 2 on the Eden Fire by Dr. David Turner and associate consultants, Dr. Harry Smith, Dr. Kimmins, and Dr. Henderson of the University of B.C.

Leave granted.

Oral questions.

FILING DATE OF ANNUAL
STATEMENT, GLENSHIEL HOTEL

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): To the

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Minister of Public Works. Can the Minister advise when he'll be filing the annual statement from the financial operations of the Glenshiel Hotel?

HON. MR. HARTLEY: Yes, all transactions are handled with a board through the full-time manager, and all documents will be open to public scrutiny through the public accounts committee.

MR. CHABOT: A supplementary question: if there's a financial statement, will the Minister be tabling the financial statement in the House?

HON. MR. HARTLEY: It will be available to the public accounts committee and, as the Member for Columbia River now knows, for the first time in 20 years a Member of the opposition chairs that public accounts committee.

MR. CHABOT: A supplementary question: could the Minister tell us under which vote number we could find it?

SHORT-TERM SNOW
REMOVAL CONTRACTS

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Minister of Highways whether the provisions of the fair employment practices Act are being applied to the owner-operators of equipment, in particular with respect to short-term contracts for snow removal?

HON. G.R. LEA (Minister of Highways): I'll take that as notice, Mr. Speaker.

BCHA-RNABC DISPUTE

MRS. JORDAN: My question is to the Hon. Minister of Labour. In view of the completely inadequate performance of the Minister of Health (Hon. Mr. Cocke) in the current hospital crisis, does the Minister of Labour…

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! This is no time for editorials.

MRS. JORDAN: …intend to initiate mediation between the two parties affected by the Minister of Health's previous intervention, the B.C. Hospital Association and the RNABC?

HON. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, in view of that facetious and erroneous statement preceding the question, I just want to assure the Member that should mediation services or any other services provided by the Department of Labour be requested, we stand ready to assist. I have full confidence in the Minister of Health's ability to look after the provision of health services in the province.

MRS. JORDAN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: May I point out before you proceed to a supplementary that questions should not contain inferences, argument, opinion, or anything in the way of an imputation. I gather that from your question.

MRS. JORDAN: I wouldn't want to refer to the Minister of Health's performance. The supplementary is: Mr. Minister, do you intend to initiate mediation?

HON. MR. KING: Mr. Speaker, I'm not prepared to say what move I intend to take at this time. The situation is being watched very closely and I'm confident that it's well in hand.

MRS. JORDAN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Has the Minister, in fact, indicated that he will initiate mediation between these two parties?

HON. MR. KING: The answer is no. I haven't indicated that.

REPORT ON TRANSPORTATION
OF SUKUNKA COAL

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver-Howe Sound): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Hon. Premier. Has the Hon. Premier received from the Research Council its report concerning the study of alternative transportation routes for Sukunka coal?

HON. MR. BARRETT: I'll take that as notice.

POSSIBLE PURCHASE
OF TWEED LINE TOURS LTD.

MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Municipal Affairs: is the provincial government in the process of purchasing the firm known as Tweed Line Tours of Victoria?

HON. J.G. LORIMER (Minister of Municipal Affairs): No, they are not.

MR. CURTIS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister. Has the firm Vancouver Island Coach Lines been purchased, or is it in the process of purchasing Tweed Line Tours of Victoria?

HON. MR. LORIMER: I'll have to take that as notice. I'll try and get an answer for you tomorrow.

MR. CURTIS: Supplementary on the same general

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subject, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: I think you would hold this, would you not, till tomorrow? If the answer is given then, make a supplementary then.

MR. CURTIS: If you wish.

SURREY REQUEST FOR
NEIGHBOURHOOD IMPROVEMENT AID

MR. R.H. McCLELLAND (Langley): A question, Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Housing. Would the Minister advise the House whether or not he has made an adjustment at the request of the Provincial Secretary and the Member for Surrey (Hon. Mr. Hall) in the neighbourhood improvement aid request for Surrey?

HON. L. NICOLSON (Minister of Housing): The announcements for the neighbourhood improvement programme have been made and they're final. There will be others following in the next five years, and we expect to make further announcements in the fall.

MR. McCLELLAND: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Have you had representation from either the MLA for Surrey or from the people of Surrey, the municipality of Surrey, to reconsider your decision?

HON. MR. NICOLSON: I've had letters, phone calls and representations from the press. I haven't had people asking me to change my mind. I don't think people expect that this would be the case.

PROPOSED LEGISLATION ON
FOREIGN LAND OWNERSHIP IN B.C.

MR. G.F. GIBSON (North Vancouver–Capilano): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Lands and Forests. In view of the Minister's statement in the press that legislation to control foreign land ownership in B.C. will be introduced by 1976, and in view of the fact that the problem is getting worse, literally, every day, how can the Minister justify this delay and this notice to foreign land speculators?

HON. R.A. WILLIAMS: I think, clearly, Mr. Speaker, the government has an obligation to bring forth the best foreign land control legislation in the nation and that will take some time.

MR. SPEAKER: I'd point out to the Hon. Member that his question seems to be somewhat argumentative in its scope.

MR. GIBSON: Could I just ask on a supplementary then, Mr. Speaker: how soon?

HON. MR. WILLIAMS: (Mike off.)

FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL COST SHARING
IN PAVING THE ALASKA HIGHWAY

MR. D.M., PHILLIPS (South Peace River): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Highways. In view of the fact that applications have been filed by a consortium of petroleum companies in North America to build a $5.7 billion pipeline down through the Mackenzie Delta, will the Minister of Highways initiate negotiations with Ottawa for cost sharing in paving of the Alaska Highway?

HON. MR. LEA: Negotiations are going on now.

MR. PHILLIPS: Supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. How long have these negotiations been going on, Mr. Minister, and what progress is being made?

HON. MR. LEA: For some months; good progress.

PERCENTAGE OF ICBC INSURANCE RISK
LAID OFF TO OUT OF PROVINCE COMPANIES

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Transport and Communications): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to reply to two questions which I took as notice. One on the 19th when the Member for Victoria asked what percentage of the insurance which is other than auto…what percentage of the risk has been laid off to other insurance companies outside the province.

The answer is: reinsurance cessions on general insurance business written to date are approximately 30 per cent for general insurance writings.

ICBC PRIVATE SALVAGE DEPOTS

HON. MR. STRACHAN: The next question was asked by the Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) yesterday: Is ICBC planning to include any privately operated salvage depots, or are they forcing them out of business?

The answer: the total loss vehicles are held in holding yards until ICBC obtains release of ownership. Once the vehicle becomes ICBC property, it is transferred to a salvage depot to be sold by tender to auto wreckers and licensed dealers in a minimum of three vehicle lots, as is, from the six planned locations throughout the province — Kamloops, lower mainland, Nanaimo, Prince George, Vernon and Victoria. Currently 399 vehicles, including ICBC-owned release vehicles, are being held

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in various towing companies' holding yards throughout the province. To date, 45 vehicles have been sold by tender and an additional 135 have releases with 84 of these presently out to bid.

MR. McCLELLAND: The Minister was answering a question that I asked in the House yesterday. I'd like to ask him whether or not the ICBC is contemplating making available positions for staff who have been working in the private sector in the various car storage and car salvage operations which will be going out of business.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: The staffing will be handled in the usual way — applications. People with experience will certainly be the most likely to be hired, I would say.

MR. N.R. MORRISON (Victoria): As a supplementary, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to thank the Minister for his answer on the general insurance. I wonder if he could give us an answer at his earliest convenience on what proportion has been re-insured of the auto section also. That is, just the liability portion of it.

I'd like to also ask him this other question, which he answered for the Member for Langley, if he could tell us if the wrecks are sold to dealers or auto wreckers only, or are the tenders made by private individuals? Are they available for sale to private individuals by tender?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I'd have to check that one out. I would imagine that if they're up for tender, anyone can tender I presume. Individuals….

MR. MORRISON: I'd like you to check that if you would. And the re-insurance, at your earliest convenience.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Yes.

POSSIBLE CHANGE IN B.C. FERRIES
SOUVENIR AND GIFT SHOPS

MR. CURTIS: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Transport and Communications: Are the souvenir and gift shops as presently operated on board the major vessels of B.C. Ferries to be phased out or altered in any way?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: They're remaining as they are for the present.

MR. CURTIS: Supplemental, on that, Mr. Speaker. I asked: are they to be phased out? Surely the Minister can be more forthright in his answer.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I answered the question, Mr. Member. I said that they were remaining as they are for the present.

MR. CURTIS: What does that tell us?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: It tells you they are remaining as they are for the present. No decision has been made to phase them out, period.

AN HON. MEMBER: When are you going to turn them into cattle boats?

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Well, that might be the kind of boat the Member likes. I don't know.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MR. CURTIS: A supplemental, Mr. Speaker.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: We have a new manager, Mr….

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There can't be four on their feet right now.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I'm still answering this question. Perhaps they would sit.

Interjection.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Now, now, now, my good friend. You don't have to tut tut.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Will the Hon. Minister either answer or take his seat, please?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Yes, but this Member's interrupting me. As you know, there's a new manager in the ferries and he's examining every aspect of their operation. So that's why I say it remains as it is. No decision of any kind.

WHITE PAPER ON EDUCATION

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: I'd ask the Minister of Education, Mr. Speaker, whether the document that she tabled in the Legislature yesterday, "The Public School System: Directions for Change," is the White Paper on education to which she referred earlier this week in reply to questions in the Legislature.

HON. E.E. DAILLY (Minister of Education): That is correct.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: May I ask as a

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supplementary, to the Minister, she informed us on Monday that this document has not been seen by her cabinet colleagues.

May I ask her now whether or not they have had an opportunity to see this, and whether the document was presented after cabinet decision?

HON. MRS. DAILLY: They all had the opportunity when it was put on your desk yesterday to see its final form — when you did.

AUTOPLAN RATES
FOR HANDICAPPED PERSONS

MRS. JORDAN: To the Hon. Minister of Transport and Communications: is it true, Mr. Minister, that handicapped people and people on various pensions pay exactly the same Autoplan rate as anyone else in their category, but that when they claim public liability from ICBC, their pension value is deducted from the amount that ICBC will pay them?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: I will have to take that question as notice.

MRS. JORDAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. I would quote from the Minister's own leaflet….

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

MRS. JORDAN: …with his picture on the front that the total amount of weekly premiums shall be reduced by the amount of any pension payable under the Canada Pension Plan, old-age pension, and other similar plans.

Is this your policy, Mr. Minister, through you, Mr. Speaker?

HON. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, there's a document there that she says is the policy. Why ask me the question?

MRS. JORDAN: I want to know if you know the answer. I want to know if ICBC is going to continue to rip off the handicapped people of this province.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! I point out to the Hon. Member that if the documents are available in a public form, you don't ask about them in question period.

FEDERAL-PROVINCIAL DREE
NEGOTIATIONS ON B.C. NORTHWEST

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: A question for the Hon. Minister of Industrial Development, Trade and Commerce.

Mr. Speaker, would the Minister indicate the stage of negotiations between the Government of British Columbia and the federal government with respect to DREE agreements for the northwestern segment of this province?

HON. G.V. LAUK (Minister of Industrial Development, Trade and Commerce): We have been negotiating for the past several months. Specific agreements are not yet on the horizon. A general agreement may be soon.

OTHER POSSIBLE AREAS
FOR DREE AGREEMENTS

MR. PHILLIPS: To the same Minister: are negotiations for a DREE agreement taking place for only the northwest portion of the province or are they for the northwest, the northeast or central parts of the province? What area are we talking about? Are we talking about the whole province?

HON. MR. LAUK: The whole province.

MR. A.V. FRASER (Cariboo): I raised a point of privilege yesterday, Mr. Speaker.

MR. SPEAKER: I'm just going to deal with it now, Hon. Member.

MR. FRASER: Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The question was raised yesterday by the Hon. Member for Cariboo as to the question of privilege involving the fact that a message bill had been put on the order paper, called the Real Property Tax Deferment Act, at a time when a committee is presently, under its terms of reference, working on the subject of the review of assessment procedures, with particular emphasis on making recommendations to the House respecting new assessment legislation. In the process the committee is to deliberate and examine existing legislation that bears upon the assessment function at the provincial and municipal levels.

First of all, I would like to indicate, only briefly, that one can find no instances in the books of authority that deal with this question as a breach of privilege. Consequently, since it is a standard rule, so far as parliament is concerned, that we have not created new forms of privilege or new breaches of privilege insofar as they are manufactured out of the proceedings and events of the House, it follows that we have to be bound by the precedents that we already have.

In the circumstances, I should point out to the Hon. Members that if there were a conflict, the House has its powers to resolve any such conflict,

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were it to exist, by several means. To give an illustration, the House could discharge the committee, change its terms of reference or, indeed, commit the bill at a certain stage to that committee.

Consequently, the House is always master of its own procedures, and therefore it would not constitute a breach of privilege in any event. But added to that is the additional factor that bills take precedence over all other forms of business, because it is a question of legislation, which is urgent, generally, and is so declared by the House when it commences its business.

Consequently I cannot see that the point would be well taken that we could deal with this as a breach of privilege.

If the Hon. Member feels dissatisfied in any way with the situation, he could propose motions for the House to consider to alter its procedures in regard to the treatment of either the committee work or the bill. But in any case, looking at the bill and comparing it to the terms of reference of the committee, they do not really appear to conflict in any event. One deals with assessment and the other deals with the deferment of taxes, as I read them. Now there may be room for argument on that, but that, as I said, does not affect the point as far as privilege is concerned. I can't, therefore, find that it is a matter of privilege.

MR. McCLELLAND: A point of order.

MR. SPEAKER: Certainly.

MR. McCLELLAND: Mr. Speaker, I just beg to disagree with your comment that there is no conflict between the bill and the committee. I think the action of the government proves that its mind has been made up and that the committee is window dressing, and it's a severe slap in the face of a duly-constituted committee of this House, Mr. Speaker. I would expect that the government would have had better sense than to have taken those kinds of precipitous moves.

MR. SPEAKER: Well, I think this is an illustration of not really discussing a point of order or a point of privilege, but dealing with the argumentative aspect of the question of the advisability of taking these courses.

That is a matter for you to deal with, if you wish, by a motion on the procedures of the House; and that is why I say that it is not a question of privilege. Whether it conflicted or it didn't…. In this case it doesn't matter — my opinion on that question — because in reading it I could not help but see that they were different aspects all together, in my opinion. One was on assessment. You may differ on that and I'm not saying that I have the right to that opinion, necessarily. Every Member has the right to their own opinion on that.

MR. D.E. SMITH (North Peace River): Mr. Speaker, just one comment on your remarks. You said that you can find no precedent recorded in any of the Journals or other information guides available to us that would indicate a breach of privilege in this particular instance, and therefore it couldn't be a breach of privilege. Do you mean to say that no new breach of privilege can occur in any House unless it has been previously recorded? How did the breaches of privilege get there in the first place?

MR. SPEAKER: Well, that's a curious thing. In 1688, when parliament became supreme, they sat down with the House of Lords and worked out what they considered privilege to be, to protect the rights of the chamber.

Forms of privilege were then developed which have not really substantially altered since about 1830 and, consequently, when you raise a point of privilege you really must be dealing with the established forms that were accepted by parliament. In other words, we don't go about creating new breaches of privilege or new forms of privilege.

In fact the reverse is happening — a restriction — but that is not really a subject for opinion here.

MR. SMITH: Well, Mr. Speaker, if it is not a breach of privilege, certainly there is a conflict there. What is it?

MR. SPEAKER: Well, I think that's a matter for studying May, and we can do that in our spare time, perhaps together.

Orders of the day.

The House in Committee of Supply; Mr. Dent in the chair.

ESTIMATES: DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION
(continued)

On vote 39: Minister's office, $77,408.

Interjections.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! In committee there is no order of speaking, or speaking order. The idea is to allow the debate to shift around to different parts of the House, and I'm doing that now.

MRS. D. WEBSTER (Vancouver South): Mr. Chairman, yesterday we listened to the most amazing debate on education that I've ever heard. When you listened very carefully, the speech made by the

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Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) in some ways sounded very reasonable; but let me say it was exceedingly difficult to follow because it was filled with dichotomies and lack of understanding as to what education is all about.

I don't know whether that Member has ever been an educator, but it was exceedingly difficult to follow. Let me illustrate. He deplored the removal of the strap from the schoolroom as a means of corporal punishment because he believes in an authoritarian approach to education. But on the other hand he deplores the loss of Mr. Bremer and his philosophy of education.

You can't have it both ways, Mr. Member; you have to remember that. You have to make a choice. Mr. Bremer was directly opposed to the authoritarian approach in every sense of the word. He didn't believe in it, and he didn't believe in the strap as a means of punishment or keeping students in line. He believed in complete involvement with the entire community and that the students should be completely involved in the educational process and in the development of the educational curriculum.

His philosophy of education, Mr. Chairman, was exceedingly fascinating, I will admit, and he was able to approach a great number of people in the community. But you have to remember that we also live in a very practical world where guidance for the young is still necessary. They have to be brought up and educated in a slightly more controlled situation than his philosophy would suggest.

On the other hand, let me say that the strap is the most degrading form of discipline that there is. Would you want to bring the cat-o'-nine-tails back into the prisons? It's the same sort of thing, only at a different level.

I remember that when I was a small child in grade 4. I had a teacher who had her strap on her desk every day. Children who hadn't their lessons prepared, who weren't able to answer, got the strap. One after the other, she would strap them. We were all terrified. The day came when I got the strap, and you know what happened, Mr. Chairman? From that day on, I had no fear of her, and I lost my respect for her completely. I'm sure that most other children feel the same way. I think it destroys and slows down the educational process in classrooms when the teacher uses the strap. Once they use it, they have to continue using it because that's the only defence they have against those little kids in front of them. I think it's degrading. It slows down the whole process of education in the classroom.

This is what Dr. Peter Bullen had to say about it last year. He said:

"The Minister of Education did consult with parents, teachers and principals before abolishing corporal punishment. In fact, this new era of consultation, informing and listening is one of the best changes that has been introduced by the new Minister, and I applaud her for it."

That comes from The Province, February 28, 1973.

Dean Scarfe, who has been the dean of the faculty of education at UBC for the past 20 years had an article in the Sun on Tuesday, March 19. He has been an outstanding educator. I must applaud the Social Credit government in their early years for having put in Mr. Williston for a short while as Minister of Education. He saw the wisdom of bringing good people in, because he himself was an educator. He bought out the whole faculty of education from the University of Manitoba and transferred them to B.C. Manitoba had an excellent faculty of education and he knew it because he recognized what was good in education. He brought them out here. Dean Scarfe over the years with his education faculty has done a fine job for this province.

He is now a dean emeritus. That means he has been retired, but he's back there in an honorary position where they want him to do some lecturing. This is what he had to say about education today:

"There is strong evidence from several parts of the world that good high school teachers will be in increasingly short supply over the next few years. Already, in some parts of the world, good teachers are avoiding the big cities and are leaving the high school classroom for other occupations or for administrative positions within the school system….

"Democracy is mistakenly equated with equalitarianism and has led to a plague of committees whose major activity is an animated or bored exchange of ignorance."

I'm not going to read the whole article, but I want to read one or two more paragraphs of what he had to say.

"With excellent teachers in districts where honesty, truthfulness, courtesy and good manners are still considered of importance, new methods are very successful.

"Unless society and parents take a much firmer hand in promoting higher standards of behaviour, morals and ethics with young people, even before they get to school, the number of good teachers entering the profession will decline progressively.

"Freedom without responsibility and restraint becomes anarchy and barbarism. Responsibility means consideration for others and collaboration with others for the greatest good for the greatest number.

"Civilized behaviour is not equalitarianism. Not everyone is equally competent or capable. Some are cleverer than others. Some are better able to make judgments in matters on which they are experts than are those whose expertise

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lies in entirely different walks of life.

"Young children are not able to make as wise decisions about academic or ethical matters as are their parents or teachers. There is no way in which young people can have an equal say in the decision-making process about education until they're granted the privilege of parliamentary vote. This does not mean that they may have no say. All good teachers have always sought student opinion."

The Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) also suggests that rather than reducing the class size, it's not desirable to have schools with enrolment of over 300 students. Mr. Chairman, I would suggest to that Member that the Social Credit government, when they were in power, built these huge, monolithic monstrosities that we call schools which house between 1,500 and 3,000 students each, because they believed that bigger was better.

It's utter nonsense to say our Minister has done nothing in education.

AN HON. MEMBER: Name one thing.

MRS. WEBSTER: Let me list some of the things that have come about in the last year-and-a-half.

Last year, schools were all given an interim budget to make up for the deficits for the niggardliness of the Social Credit government before us, because their finance formula was so poor.

MR. D.E. LEWIS (Shuswap): Lay it on 'em, Daisy, lay it on 'em.

MRS. WEBSTER: They imposed restriction that prevented teachers from having more than 6.5 per cent increase in salaries and that prevented schools from increasing their budgets so that they could have better quality counseling services and could have schools that had gymnasiums and other facilities outside of the actual classrooms. They were quite ready to build schools with classrooms only. This defeats our whole purpose of education because these other things are not frills. Home economics is not a frill. Industrial arts is not a frill. Recreation is not a frill. Athletics are not a frill.

Our whole development of a good physical education programme, good home economics programme, good industrial arts programme and programmes of that type are the things that are more necessary today than ever before because we're living in a changing community, a community in which there will probably be less people working. And because there'll be more time for leisure, because people won't be working as long hours as they have in the past, they will have to be prepared for leisure as well as work, and that is part of our educational system.

Secondly, she gave teachers back the compulsory clause to BCTF membership. This repealed iniquitous Bill 3 that had been instituted by the Social Credit government before. It was one of the things that defeated the Social Credit government in the last election.

Thirdly, she has been instrumental in bringing more women into the top situations and positions in the teaching profession. There are now quite a number. I believe there are nine principals and about 14 vice-principals in the Vancouver School system, and the same is starting to operate throughout the entire school system of British Columbia.

The first woman district superintendent has also been appointed under this Minister of Education.

Last year, when I was first elected, I looked into the discrepancies between salaries of the home economics director and the inspectors of industrial arts and the provincial superintendents. The men were all on one schedule, and the home economists were all on a lower salary schedule. I talked this over with the Minister. Just recently this has been changed so that the women are on the same salary scale with the men where they do the same type of work.

Also in home economics, there's been a great shortage of home economics teachers. This was discussed last spring. The Minister took it up immediately and worked it out with the universities so that courses are more relevant to teachers of home economics. As a result, we are going to be able, from our own universities — Simon Fraser, UBC and UVic — get a greater supply of home economics teachers than we have in other years and we hope that in a while this disparity also will be rectified.

I hope that the Hon. Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder), as well as the other Hon. Members, has studied this working paper on community colleges. If you wish to talk about new workable directions, here they are. They're in here. For the first time a task force which was set up by this Minister in November has given full recognition to the fact that education is a lifelong process; it doesn't just stop at the end of high school or university.

It also recognizes that there must be education for leisure as well as for work. It recognizes the fact that we must have a better type of education programme for new Canadians that are coming in, with women with small children getting the opportunity to have a bilingual type of educational programme in some of our adult education centres so that the child learns English at the same time that the mother does. That is going to be a great advantage to large groups coming in or to ethnic communities that are settled in one spot.

The task force also, through this working paper — that's the working paper on community colleges — wishes to establish community colleges in all areas of the province. It suggests that four more community

[ Page 1447 ]

colleges should be established so that there will be an equalization of opportunity for people, regardless of which region of the province they live, to be able to have continuing education or to be able to go back to study something new or to have refresher courses in the type of work that they are doing. There will be something for everyone.

It also suggests that there will be nominal fees for courses and they will relate to the type of work that people will be able to go into. For instance, in the past, practically all courses within an adult education centre had the same type of fee. Now it is recognized that if a person goes into electronics, he will be receiving a much higher salary or pay packet than a person that takes up power sewing and goes into the needle trades where the final pay packet is still on a very low scale.

MR. LEWIS: Will Chilliwack get some of these facilities?

MRS. WEBSTER: Well, I should hope so.

We are hopeful that these, according to the task force, will be available to people in all parts of the province.

Mr. Chairman, I could go on and on but it is all here for anyone who wishes to read it and study it. It is very well and clearly laid out. This working paper is the result of a task force that held public meetings from the time it first was put together last November and given its terms of reference. They travelled around the province to all the various school districts and held public meetings. They also went to the other provinces, all the way from here right through to Quebec to see what was happening in community colleges, junior colleges and trade schools in the other provinces so that we could get the best type of education for adults or for anyone that wishes to go into the community colleges.

Don't tell me, Mr. Member, that nothing is being done. You have tried to give the wrong impression.

MR. LEWIS: Shame on you, Chilliwack. Shame!

MRS. WEBSTER: You say that there is no progress being made in the public schools; you say that there's confusion. There's not confusion and there is progress being made in every area of the province. There are innovative programmes that are being tried out and they are being encouraged by the Minister.

MR. LEWIS: You should have a red face, Chilliwack!

MRS. WEBSTER: Would you like me to name one? Yes, I will name one. It gives me a great deal of delight to go into David Thompson Secondary School in Vancouver, where there are all sorts of innovative programmes going on all the time. Here we have a situation where there are two Vancouver schools near each other. On the one hand there is Killarney Secondary, which has a traditional programme, Mr. Member. On the other hand, about 10 or 15 blocks away is David Thompson, with a progressive type of education where they have all sorts of progressive and innovative programmes going on. There are a great number of people still in the David Thompson area who would like to have their children go into a more traditional type of educational system. They are permitted now to send their children over to Killarney Secondary.

There are quite a number of people also in the Killarney area who would like to have more of a progressive type of education, and they are permitted to send their children over to David Thompson. The interesting thing, Mr. Member, is that the two rather balance each other, in that there are practically the same number of people going from the Killarney area into the David Thompson as there are from the David Thompson area into Killarney. I would be very honoured if sometime you were in Vancouver and you would like to go through David Thompson to see some of the fine programmes that are going on. I would be happy to take you there and let you see them.

MR. LEWIS: Give him an education.

MRS. WEBSTER: These programmes are an evolutionary type of thing. Some of them just started this past year. They have, for instance, what they call a bachelor survival course, which is really a home economics course for boys so that they can learn what is actually going on. They can learn to cook for themselves, learn to press their own pants, mend their socks and do a little bit of washing and other things so that they can keep themselves clean and well-fed.

I've just been given a little note here saying,"Please welcome the Burnaby South students in the gallery on behalf of the Speaker and the Minister of Municipal Affairs." I'm very happy to welcome you. I'm always happy to welcome students, having been a teacher myself. It's wonderful to see so many students take an interest in what is going on in the Legislative Assembly. I hope you're all going to be taking back some good impressions to your school as to what is happening here and as to what we're trying to do in our process of legislation.

The Minister has also involved and encouraged the involvement of Indians in schools where there is a predominance of Indians as teachers and teacher aides. They're encouraged to become involved in selection of curriculums. I know with the Indians that this is a slow process. They are very shy; they are very diffident. It will take a long time before they are able

[ Page 1448 ]

to come into our system and compete to the same extent as white children do, but it's hopeful that with some help they will stay in school longer than they have before. That is the purpose for which the Minister has tried to involve more Indians in situations where there are Indians in the school. As you realize, until last year in some of the schools where there were Indians, not only were there no Indian teachers there wasn't an Indian nurse, there were no Indian janitors, and there were no Indians on the board of school trustees. They really felt they were alienated from their own people in the schools which they attended.

Another innovation in Vancouver is a special school for drop-outs which is located in an old warehouse. There is also an integrated programme with business. This is at David Thompson, and I believe one or two of the other schools are adopting it. They have put it into effect in the last two years. That is a programme integrated with the business community so that students can go into the business community for about a month under supervision, so that they know what the work situation is like and they realize what the problems are. It makes them relate a little more closely to some of the programmes they're taking at the senior high school level.

Changes of this type are going along by a process of evolution; this is not the sort of thing you can institute immediately. I think Members must realize that when working papers and White Papers come in, they cannot be instituted as quickly in the field of education as they can in other departments. Some of these programmes have to be tested as pilot projects. Parents, by tradition, are inclined to be conservative and some of the school districts are inclined to be conservative. The changeover takes place a little bit more slowly. If we put it in too quickly, we would be criticized for trying to speed up the change when people aren't ready for it.

Another thing the Minister has done is to allocate all the moneys the federal government has allocated for French programmes towards the purpose for which it was intended. Now it doesn't any longer go into the general revenue for education; it is used for French only.

At present, Mr. Speaker, I have nothing else to say, but I hope to participate in the debate later if the occasion may arise.

MR. H.W. SCHROEDER (Chilliwack): I'm glad to continue from where I left off last evening when I was so rudely interrupted by the 6 o'clock hour. I was developing a theme which, as it developed, became even more and more frightening. Now with the recess having taken place between last night and today, and having had an opportunity to speak with more individuals, my case is even stronger today than it was last evening.

It's a little difficult to pick up the thread of thought in the middle of a talk, however, I'll begin.

The Member for Vancouver South (Mrs. Webster) made a somewhat impassioned defence for the Minister, and I must compliment her for doing that because anyone who would not protect the position taken by her own Minister would not be worthy of carrying the banner of the political party she happens to subscribe to.

She said she found some differences in the statements I made yesterday. She said I was for "classroom control." I guess I'll never apologize for that; you had better believe I'm for classroom control. Unless we have classroom control we soon will have no classrooms. In some areas of the province this is precisely what's happening.

She said this happened to be incongruous with the fact that I was against the dismissal of Bremer. I don't think anyone who was listening to the talk yesterday, Mr. Attorney-General, would have concluded I was against the dismissal of Mr. Bremer. I was against the way he was dismissed. "Barbaric" is a better word to describe the way he was dismissed than the result of his dismissal.

I noticed the Premier banged on his desk when the Member for Vancouver South made a statement against corporal punishment. I've got to tell you something: the Premier's not against corporal punishment; he's not against corporal punishment at all. When the executives of the Egg Marketing Board were in his office and didn't want to accede to his wishes, was he going to become corporal? You'd better believe he was going to become corporal, because he said he was going to have to resort to kicking the "beep-beep" out of these fellows.

Corporal? I guess he was to become corporal!

The Member for Vancouver South said something about my proposal of having enrolment in schools not larger than 300. I was quoting Mr. Bremer at the time. This is not a position I take, Madam Member, but rather, this is a quotation directly from Mr. Bremer.

I was also interested in the list of accomplishments she attributed to the present Minister, and these were some of the ones I listed. She said the Minister provided a provisional budget to make up for the niggardliness of the previous administration.

Agreed; she provided a provisional budget. But immediately, having excited the boards of the various school districts with the hope that there were going to be more funds available, and when those boards moved to their next provisional budget on the basis of the increases they had been granted, she pulled the strings on them and said,"You dear people out there are irresponsible; you're overspending." She passed judgment on her own provisional budgets given to make up for the niggardliness of the previous administration. She said, "We have been too

[ Page 1449 ]

extravagant. We're going to have to pull in the strings because this kind of spending is irresponsible spending." Even the Minister herself was not convinced that she had moved in the right direction.

You say she restored compulsory membership in the B.C. Teachers Federation. Let me ask you, what did that do for individual rights? What did that do for the individual who did not want to be a member of the B.C. Teachers Federation? This Minister, Mr. Chairman, who was so adamantly opposed to the word "compulsory" when the word compulsory was linked with arbitration, now took the very same word and attached it to another word "membership" and believes firmly in compulsory membership. You answer me the questions: What did that do for individual rights? What did that do for the teacher who doesn't wish to belong to the B.C. Teachers Federation? Is that a move ahead? It doesn't look like it to me. When you talk to the individuals out there beyond these four walls, it doesn't look like it to them.

You say that one of her major accomplishments was to appoint the first lady superintendent. Well, I welcome lady superintendents. I believe that when it comes to education a lady can do just as good as a man any day. As a matter of fact, in most other areas ladies do better. But in the area of the superintendency which lady did she appoint? She appointed a shirt-tail relative of hers. It's not hard to understand when you see the development of the appointments under this socialist regime. They bring in all their friends and all their political hacks. I don't see anything incongruous with the fact that the Minister would appoint a shirt-tail relative of hers who happens to be the mother of the Deputy.

She defends all the innovations that have come to schools since this government has been in power. I want to ask you: were those innovations initiated in the offices of this Minister or were those innovations created out there in the classrooms where they belong? Where did the initiation begin? If they began out in the classroom, then how can we attribute that as an accomplishment to this Minister across there? No, I'm afraid, Madam Member for Vancouver South, that I have to discredit most of what you said today. And I have to continue in building the case that I began yesterday.

The case simply stated is this. This Minister is not sure which way to go, and we have no leadership in the Department of Education — no definitive statements, no direction, no leadership, and a fading confidence in the Minister.

That confidence faded even further when I heard the Minister answer just a few moments ago in this House that this paltry, little piece of double foolscap is to be the White Paper referred to and long-awaited, and that this is supposed to be the panacea for the problems of the Education department. As one education critic said in my hearing, he writes longer letters than that to his wife, and also puts more content in those letters.

I want you to know that this is just the most general of terms that I have ever read related to education. The preamble is nearly as long as the main body, and it says only those things which have been said since the beginning of education. It takes the position that we are well aware this government has taken. But again, as I said yesterday, there is no direction in this particular pamphlet — and it's called "Directions for Change."

I had dinner last evening with the executive of the B.C. Teachers Federation.

Interjection.

MR. SCHROEDER: No, I'm sorry, I wish the phone had rung, but the phone didn't ring.

They asked me: "Is this the White Paper that we've been waiting for?" I'm sorry, but I misled them, and I said: "No, gentlemen, I cannot believe that this is the White Paper that we've been waiting for. I must come to the defence of the Minister — I think that there is another paper of directives still to come." They said: "We certainly hope so."

Confidence in this particular Minister is waning. I have developed the areas of the schools not doing the job, the dismissal of Mr. Bremer and discipline and morality and permissiveness in the classroom. I went through the area of finance and I had just arrived at classroom size when 6 o'clock arrived.

I have to compliment the Minister now. She has taken a definite move in a positive direction in one area of education, and it is this: she has clearly stated a goal that she wants to decrease classroom size by 1.5 students per teacher for each year in the next three years. Madam, I commend you. That's a positive goal. Whether you make it or not is hardly to be discussed, but here is a positive direction. I commend you for it.

There is a bit of a problem. Whenever you make that kind of a statement you must make arrangements in the supportive areas. You've got to take a look at the financial structure to see whether or not it will support that kind of progress, You have to look to see whether or not you have the personnel to support that kind of progress. In a brief that I received from the school trustees association, they wonder about it. They say that just to maintain the present ratio, they are going to have to hire something like 1,000 teachers in this year, and they've got to do it by September, 1974. This is just to meet the one-year reduction.

If they are supposed to meet with the entire reduction suggested by the Minister of Education they're going to have to hire an additional 1,600, for a total of 2,600 new teachers. I have a question:

[ Page 1450 ]

where are you going to get these teachers?

AN HON. MEMBER: That's not right.

MR. SCHROEDER: What do you mean that's not right? That's directly from the school trustees. They are going to have to hire a total of 2,600 new teachers to meet the Minister's edict. Where are we going to get 2,600 new teachers? They worry lest we should be able to find 1,000 new teachers. And even if they can find them, they say there's no way that they can provide classrooms by September for the extra classes that will be created by shrinking the present classes.

So here we are. We have to be thinking in terms of salaries for at least 1,000 new teachers, and we have to be thinking in terms of capital expenditure right now for those extra classrooms. The problem is that the boards won't know how many teachers they'll be able to hire until after a survey is completed — another one of those that I talked at length about yesterday. Until the survey, they won't know how many teachers they'll be able to hire, and by the time they are given the green light to hire the teachers, they won't be available either in Canada or in British Columbia or abroad.

So here is a perfectly good goal which I have commended the Minister for, yet she has failed to look at the circumstantial things that need to be considered in order to make this kind of a goal possible. Again I have to conclude, together with the school trustees association, that the Minister really is not sure which way she wants to go and that really she is not offering leadership even in the area regarding class size.

The president of the B.C. Teachers' Federation has plain out and said it. He complained that the government has shafted the school boards who wish to reduce class sizes by failing to indicate how much money will be available. As a result, the boards are frustrated. They don't know what approach to take. They don't know how to re-arrange the class apportionment. As a result, they are sitting back and doing nothing. They're waiting for the leadership that I've been talking about for an hour.

The reason why they're afraid to move is because when they did move in the direction that the Minister suggested, they were called irresponsible. Mr. McFarlan says that he believes the Barrett government was clearly given a mandate to decrease class size, and he believes that the moneys should be there and be made available and should be designated and should be let for all to know that the funds are there so that the boards can move in positive directions to decrease class sizes.

If we're going to decrease class sizes, I think we need to do it intelligently. I have created a very crude graph that gives the birth rate in British Columbia and that gives in addition to the birth rate the net increase in students when you consider immigration and emigration. I have created the graph with a six-year lag so that the birth rate can be superimposed upon the classroom enrolment at the first grade level.

It tells you some beautiful things. It tells you that fewer and fewer people are coming to live in British Columbia and staying here. It tells you that the graph for the birth rate has been dropping since 1962 and dropped steadily till 1966 and all of a sudden we had an increase. People came to live in British Columbia and had children while they were here, God bless 'em. Up until 1970, there was an increase in birth rates. And ever since 1970, there's been a constant decrease in the birth rate.

If we can create enough classrooms to house the number of students that we will have after enrolment in 1976, we can begin to taper off in the provision of classrooms. After that, capital expenditure will not need to be nearly so great because school enrolment in total is going to level off.

These are the facts that come out of just a crude little graph, and I thought that the House would be interested in these facts and would like to use them in their own deliberations.

Now, there's another area that I wish we could get some direction in, and this is the area of equal opportunity for education for every child in British Columbia. When the Minister stood to speak, she said that every child in British Columbia shall have the opportunity to be educated, although perhaps that education might not happen in a classroom as we know it today. I concur with that. That is beautiful. There are 7,000 children in the Vancouver area alone who have learning disabilities. They are handicapped people and they need to have an equal opportunity for education.

But there are some students in the Province of British Columbia for which no provision has been made, at least not adequate provision has been made.

These are the children who are handicapped on the plus side of the ledger, and any who have had to deal with children who are handicapped on the plus side of the ledger will recognize the fact that they are handicapped just as surely as those who are handicapped on the negative side.

I'm talking about the exceptionally brilliant children. No provision is made for their additional potential. These children are potentially the leaders of our nation. They can learn more quickly. They can advance more rapidly. They have a greater capacity for learning. they have a greater capacity for retention, but there is no provision for their exceptional qualities.

I would like to see some direction, some leadership, from the department, even if it was a hope that said, "by 1976 we plan to have facilities and programmes for these particular people," because these are the kids that get bored in the classroom, and

[ Page 1451 ]

long before the ninth grade.

While you are considering equal opportunity for education, Madam Minister, through you, Mr. Chairman, I hope that you will consider that technical and vocational classes must be introduced at the eighth or ninth grade level. It is when the child is 13 and 14 that boredom evidences itself, and it is the time when the student needs to begin selecting the vocation that he will follow, hopefully for the rest of his life.

I believe that we should require that all students through to the twelfth grade at least be required to be involved in the basic educational classes — the "three Rs," if you need to know — the "three-R" classes. However, I think that at the eighth or ninth grade — and I should leave that for the Minister to determine — the technical and vocational classes should become more than just options. They should become precise directives in the students' lives, and although now we have industrial arts and we have woodwork and we have home economics classes, referred to by the Member for Vancouver South (Mrs. Webster), these are all available at the junior secondary level.

Nonetheless, there isn't a concentrated effort to provide technical and vocational instruction at those levels. Usually what happens is that you wait until they graduate. If they can overcome the boredom and they can graduate from the twelfth grade, then they can go to a vocational school or a technical school or a college after that time. I would like to see some leadership in this regard.

Next, I would like to refer just briefly to the needs of the independent schools. I think that all the Members of the House are aware that I am sympathetic to the position of the independent schools. Although the government in a survey gave clear indication that there is no support forthcoming for independent schools as long as this Minister is in charge of her portfolio, nonetheless I will continue to press for recognition of independent schools.

I believe thoroughly that they provide an alternative for education, and I believe that regardless of whether our present school system is good or bad, an alternative system of education is necessary in British Columbia. If it is good it allows the students the choice of what kind of education they may require. If the present system is bad, then we have a responsibility to the students of our province to provide them with this alternative.

I will raise the banner of independent schools high, not because they happen to be ecclesiastical in origin, not because they happen to subscribe to perhaps the more traditional forms of education — because they don't, all of them. Nonetheless, we must ensure that they exist.

As they exist now, they exist on after-tax dollars. The money that they provide for their own education — which, by the way, is direct savings on the public purse — that money is provided by themselves after they have paid school taxes that you and I and anybody else must pay.

It has become a hardship for them to exist. I believe that we need to take some steps to at least recognize that they do exist, that they provide a service to all of British Columbia, and that we must provide something to help them in their existence.

I just have one question of the Minister today. She is aware that textbooks have been provided to the independent schools at no charge. Now I can't discuss this because of legislation, but I understand that textbooks are going to be provided for all of British Columbia — all public schools — at no charge. This is beautiful. This means that the advantage that was being realized by the independent schools heretofore will no longer exist.

I'm asking the Minister if she would consider making up to the independent schools the amount of dollars that their advantage represented before when public schools had to pay for their textbooks. Now that public schools are receiving their textbooks for nil, would we be able to make up that amount of money to them in lieu of textbooks? I know that you haven't given it any consideration, but I think it is worthy of consideration.

I would love you till the day you die if you would make this money available for the independent schools.

I think that I have developed a case…

Interjection.

MR. SCHROEDER: I'd better stop now, yes.

…rather precisely. The opening statement that I made yesterday simply was this: we are disappointed that this Minister is not sure which way to go, that we have no leadership in this department, and that we have a fading confidence.

I must, in conclusion, give you the list of people and organizations and associations and federations that are involved in this fading confidence.

The B.C. School Trustees Association does not find any directive from this Minister in regard to financing. They believe that the Minister is leaning toward centralized financing, but they can't be sure; and they can't really tell which way they are to move until they are sure. They are waiting for the Minister to come right out, in front of God and everybody, and tell it like it is. Is she for centralized financing, or is she going to allow the financing as it presently exists at the municipal level?

They say they are not receiving any directive when it comes to pupil-teacher ratio.

Secondly, the B.C. Teachers' Federation last evening expressed lack of confidence in this Minister because she has failed to give them direction.

[ Page 1452 ]

Although they say she has given them all the help financially for themselves and their pension funds and all the things that they so desired from the previous administration, they said all this help has been given to them, but no help for the students. At the students' level is where education takes place. They have expressed no confidence.

The teachers expressed lack of confidence in this Minister when they demonstrated on the steps of this Legislature not too many weeks ago. I was privileged to go out to meet with them and to listen to their complaint. Their complaint was loud and clear, Mr. Attorney-General. They were looking for leadership. They were looking for directives. They wanted someplace and someone in whom to place confidence, and found no one.

The education authorities and the university leaders express lack of directive, no leadership.

The industrial people say,"Where is the leadership which is providing students for us who are ready for employment?" No directives, say the industrial people.

The editors, I referred to them yesterday. Editors around the province are saying the same thing. "When, oh when, oh when are we going to hear in which direction we are going in our educational field?"

The Premier expressed lack of confidence in his own Minister when he didn't even leave with her the prerogative of putting the axe to Mr. Bremer. He had to do it himself, and he waited until she was out of town. Now if that is not an expression of lack of confidence, then I wouldn't recognize it when I saw it. The Premier doesn't have confidence; but that's not all.

From within her own department there is an expression of a lack of confidence.

Interjection.

MR. SCHROEDER: "Leadership" — I'll let you have it. Are you ready?

Interjection.

MR. SCHROEDER:

"'Leadership is needed to bring something concrete out of an abundance of proposals for changing education,' Deputy Education Minister Jack Fleming said Friday.

"'In my year in the department I've seen literally thousands of proposals, usually well documented and researched,' Fleming told about 400 persons at a conference. 'It's just possible that every conceivable notion for educational change has been presented. What seems to be missing is some leadership, something to give direction through this plethora of ideas. But one of Mrs. Dailly's criticisms of Bremer was that after nine months of operation he had entertained many ideas and produced no definite direction for change.'"

Even from inside her own department comes word of an expression of lack of confidence. Madam Minister, to you through the Chairman, I have to say this: there is lack of confidence in every area and in no area is it more apparent than in the people of the Province of British Columbia.

I would say to you, move quickly to restore that confidence. It can be done in this way. Give direction. Tell the people and tell this House which way you want to go in education. We'll try to give you all the guidance that we can. Hopefully, between the 55 of us, we can go in the right direction. But for goodness' sake let's not let education in British Columbia deteriorate just because we in the department don't know which way to go.

MR. P.L. McGEER (Vancouver–Point Grey): We've got some very reluctant daffodils here this afternoon, Mr. Chairman. Really what we were waiting to hear was some more definitive statements from the Minister and some answers to excellent questions posed by the Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder).

I don't intend to take a great deal of time right now in the Minister's estimates, except to ask her a question regarding the meeting she held with the presidents of our three universities. It's my understanding they were here earlier this week, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out why they were here. They must have come to ask for money. They met with the Premier and the Minister, according to their statements afterwards. I'm sure they expressed their dire need for financial relief, and I wonder if the Minister would tell us what action she contemplates to avert the impending disaster at the universities in the province.

MR. R.H. McCLELLAND (Langley): I think that would be most helpful to us, particularly in answer to some of the questions that the Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) has raised and that most important question just raised by the First Member for Vancouver–Point Grey (Mr. McGeer). I'd be happy to let the Minister tell us the results of that meeting if she wishes to do so. I think it's of considerable interest to this assembly.

HON. E.E. DAILLY (Minister of Education): First of all, before I go on to the questions from the Hon. Member for Vancouver–Point Grey, who was concerned that I wasn't answering all the questions that had been posed by the Hon. Member for Chilliwack, I sat and listened to you very carefully, Mr. Member. I really didn't find that many questions, frankly. Generally they were statements and

[ Page 1453 ]

obviously you and I have a basic disagreement on some of the statements which you made.

There was one area that you did bring up which I consider shows that you certainly had some positive things to say about it. You'd worked out your own little graph with the matter of teacher supply and demand, and I think that's certainly worthy of a reply. It shows that you have a concern, as I think a lot of people do, in light of the fact that the government has committed themselves to the reduction of the class sizes.

The first thing I want to say is that I think you based your figures on a false premise, unfortunately, in that you are assuming that we're talking about the reduction of the pupil-teacher ratio based on the situation where you are not necessarily using many of the teachers who have professional teaching certificates now. When we're working with the teachers and the trustees in this survey, we are assuming that we're going to work it out on the ratio of the number of teachers in the province who have professionally qualified teaching certificates.

MR. SCHROEDER: How many are there?

HON. MRS. DAILLY: Approximately 27,000 at the present time.

MR. SCHROEDER: You're only using about 23,000 of them.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: Yes, if you include principals, vice-principals, department heads and supervisory staff. But I wanted to make clear first that that's the basis on which we're working. After it's worked out as to how much would be given to the board to alleviate that situation, then it would be up to the school boards to use their own responsibility and autonomy in directing the funds made to them in the best way possible.

One statement you made was about taking services to children outside of the classroom. I think we must consider whether we have to go on continually building more and more classrooms to alleviate the classroom shortage. I think this is one area where we will be able to look at innovative ideas.

We have had suggestions that perhaps there should be an increase in the supply of school buses, so that we can transport students out of the classrooms. For instance, you could have two classes using one classroom. One in the morning could be doing their academic work while the other class at the same time could perhaps be visiting in the community — the museums, the theatres, et cetera, or other types of activity. There are many areas which can be looked at if we are not necessarily caught up in the bind of having to completely look at the answer only as building more and more classrooms.

There is also perhaps something we could look at, and that's the matter of the whole school hours. People have suggested that we could run our schools — and I know many parents won't be happy about this, but we could only use it in areas where we have the agreement of the parents — through from 8 right through to 5 if necessary. It's a suggestion which perhaps some school boards may be willing to take up.

Also, the year-round school. We will ask the school boards themselves if any of them are willing to attempt some of these innovations. We'll see how they work out.

I don't intend to impose it on any one board, but I certainly want to give a direction and I think it would be worthwhile to try it. If we do this, we certainly have to provide extra funds — you're quite correct.

The matter of teacher supply and demand. We have not been sitting back idly and just waiting without any idea or thought as to what will be the result of a sudden decrease in the class size and more teachers being injected into the system. Approximately a year ago, the Department of Education funded the B.C. Research Council to develop a teacher supply-demand model which would be capable of forecasting for immediate and future teacher requirements in the Province of British Columbia. After all, we're concerned that the matter of teacher supply and demand be addressed in a qualitative as well as a quantitive term. We do know that there is concern that if you need a great many more teachers, we keep up the quality of the teaching supply. That, of course, is a concern for the teachers and for the department.

There is no question that unless we move into some of the areas I've just been talking to you about, in September, 1974, and for several years afterwards the total supply of teachers available for British Columbia at this time from our university faculties and other sources will be insufficient. It will be insufficient to staff the vacancies occurring as a result of the addition of new teaching positions and because of teacher retirements and related factors, others being of course the government commitment to reduce the classes.

Although both elementary and secondary teachers will be in short supply, deficiencies will be most pronounced at the secondary school level. In the secondary school level, the most acute shortages will be in the specialty areas, including community services, industrial education and commerce. This of course has already been predicted. Also, of course, the further you are removed from the lower mainland, that's where the demand will be greater.

Now, when you speak about direction, we accept the responsibility that we have these research figures in front of us now. We have a responsibility to create more teachers for the Province of British Columbia.

[ Page 1454 ]

So at the present time my department is working with the faculties of education, having discussions on how perhaps we can arrange for teachers to come through perhaps a little quicker in these specialized areas.

We are considering — and of course this depends on financial commitments — perhaps incentive grants if the teachers will accept the fact of taking up a specific subject area which is needed, as I pointed out: home economics, commerce, et cetera. And perhaps even we're thinking of assisting teachers who would commit themselves to move into the areas where it is most difficult to get teachers.

These are the directions we are thinking on now, and I'm hoping that before the end of the spring when we are really faced with this we will have some of these moving for the beginning of the year. So there are many areas to consider if we wish to cope with an obvious short supply of teachers, particularly in certain areas in this province.

I'll be ready to report further — maybe I won't have the opportunity in this session of the House — through information bulletins to the public on the progress we're making in meeting this needed supply of teachers. We'll be working with the faculties, with the teachers' associations and the school trustees. We're quite aware of the problem and we're ready to meet it.

Now the other area that the Member for Vancouver–Point Grey was asking about: we had an excellent meeting with these three university presidents. The Premier was present and we had an excellent discussion not only on finance, but on the whole matter of university programmes and where we expect to be going in the future.

We have agreed to consider requests for additional operating funds, which obviously was made to us — as the Member said he would expect to be made at that meeting — and we have agreed to consider this. We are quite aware that when the budget was drawn in the fall the matter of inflationary costs was not completely tied in with those initial estimates, and particularly the increased area of salary agreements.

We are willing to look at a case which was put before us quite well by the three university presidents on those increased needs. We have told them we will consider it and we will be informing them shortly.

We also mentioned the matter of supplementary grants and we will be meeting with some of the university presidents and officials on the matter of their supplementary grant requests, as the Premier had outlined.

We also went into discussions on the whole matter of innovative programmes; and perhaps consideration is to be given so we can budget no longer on a one-year basis, but we are considering moving ahead into a five-year budgetary plan. These areas were all discussed and I think that the university presidents, by and large, were fairly satisfied.

MR. H.D. DENT (Skeena): As a former teacher I can't resist the opportunity to say a few words during these estimates, especially on the salary vote of the Minister.

First of all, if I heard the Hon. Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) correctly, he had made a statement that the population of B.C. was declining and this was resulting in a reduced population in the school system. I just want to read some figures from Statistics Canada which I think are interesting, not only to correct what he said but as a fact in themselves.

These are the figures now comparing June, 1972 to June, 1973. The population of British Columbia in June of 1972 was 2,247,000, and in June of 1973 the population had increased to 2,315,000.

Births in the same period in June of 1972 were 36,861 — or for a period of a year up to that point — and from that period until the same month in 1973, they were 34,852. So there was a net decline in the number of live births during that period.

Deaths rose slightly during the same period from 17,020 to 17,783.

Since there was a net decline in births and a slight increase in deaths, then obviously the population must be coming from somewhere. They came from outside of the Province of British Columbia by migration.

I would submit that that process is still continuing and we have much evidence of that by the pressure on housing and by the rapidly increasing work force in the province. The latest statistics from the provincial government departments indicate that there is an increase in the work force in the Province of British Columbia.

So he's mistaken. People are coming to B.C. in large numbers. But there is this fact: there is a net decline in births in the province. This is, I think, having a stabilizing influence to some extent on the school system. Other influences, of course, are making necessary more teachers.

People expect a great deal more of our government, obviously, and we want to give a lot more, so efforts will be made to try to reduce the class size and this will mean that we will need to have more teachers. But as far as the population is concerned, the student population is now on the decline, or has been on the decline. Unless there were a massive increase in migration, this downward decline would continue.

Now the other point that the Hon. Member for Chilliwack made was that he said there was no direction in education and that this document, "The Public School System: Directions for Change," because it was small, didn't have much in it. Well, I've only been just glancing through the first two or three

[ Page 1455 ]

pages, and I see a great deal in it.

I think that he doesn't read very well, or those with whom he has talked to apparently don't read very well, because just on a cursory reading one can see a great deal — certainly a great deal that excites me. I just want to mention two or three of the points that I've seen in this document, just glancing at it.

First of all, the aim, the philosophy, the goal of the Education Minister clearly is "to provide a measure of success for every student." Well, what's wrong with that? Isn't that a direction?

AN HON. MEMBER: What's new about it?

MR. DENT: What's new about it? Now that is a good question. What's new about it is that perhaps there was a desire somewhere to have this happen, but there was never the initiative taken to change the structures or to try to redesign the system so that that would in fact happen.

Now from what the Hon. Member for Chilliwack says when he talks about leadership or direction, I get the feeling he's talking about needing a new Napoleon or a new Hitler, or something of that kind: somebody who would galvanize, organize, regimentize and everything else, and get people moving in a certain direction — "Get thee behind me; I'll raise the banner, and on we go." That's the kind of leadership he seems to be talking about.

But the kind of leadership that's suggested in this document is a leadership which centres on the students, that somehow says that maybe the school system shouldn't be regimentizing or leading people in this way or that way — in terms of philosophy specifically — but rather that it should be relating to the needs of the society which has given it birth, which has given that educational system its existence. That is, to me, much superior leadership and direction than that which was hinted at by the Hon. Member for Chilliwack.

The next point: in the same document, still on page 1, this statement is made: "The student has no means of resolving any conflict with the system; he must conform, leave voluntarily, or be suspended." Now there are students in the galleries here, perhaps teachers too, and I want to read that to them again. "The student has no means of resolving any conflict with the system; he must conform, leave voluntarily, or be suspended." Is that true or false?

Now please don't answer it from the galleries.

But is it true? Certainly it's true. The fact is that there are many students in the school system — and I've seen them year after year — totally in captivity to the system and unable to get any benefit from it whatever. Yet they're forced to remain in it and go through this locked-step system often for years and years and years. In fact it's a retrograde process for their development.

In fact, a study was made once, a few years back, that indicated that in the study of English — the functional literacy that might be desired in any young person — they found that 80 per cent of the boys in the school system failed to achieve the Grade 8 level by the time they were in Grade 8, and that 20 per cent of the girls failed to achieve that level.

In mathematics it was somewhat different, with the boys having the edge and the girls having a greater disparity. But the fact was that a large number of students, perhaps as many as 50 per cent of all of the students, had not reached the Grade 8 level by the time they were actually in Grade 8, and many of them were far below that level. Some were getting nothing.

I have personally seen students in my classes in grades 9, 10 and 11 and 12 who had not, some of them, gone beyond the grade 3 level in some things and had lost interest far back along the way. Yet, they were totally captivated by the system. They were, in a sense, enslaved by the system and required to stay with it till they could legally leave school or until their parents would allow them to leave the system.

[Mr. G.H. Anderson in the chair.]

The direction that the Minister is offering us in this document is that they want to resolve this problem of the fact that these students have no means of resolving the personal conflict that they might have with the system that has captivated them. They must conform or leave voluntarily when they reach that age, or be suspended.

That is an exciting direction — if the structuring of the whole Education department system is going to make a change there, then I'm right for it. I would ask any of the opposition Members: would they be opposed to that? Would they be opposed to a change in the structuring, or the redesigning of the system so that students will no longer feel that they are in conflict with the system and that they are prisoners of the system?

You talk to students, those under the age of 15 and who are in school — grades 8, 9, and 10. Ask them, "Why are you here?" They'll say, "Because I have to come. I am forced to come." A great many of them have this attitude. I don't say all of them, but I would say a very substantial number of students feel that way.

Maybe this is a truism; maybe it is something that has been said over and over before. But it needs to be said again and needs to be said succinctly and to be said explicitly: even the best efforts of the present system are not effectively meeting the educational needs of these students.

I repeat: even the best efforts of the present system are not effectively meeting the educational

[ Page 1456 ]

needs of these students.

Every student counts, and every student should count. The system should be interested in every student and what happens to every student.

The goal is not as it was in the past — to divide the students at each grade level between those who "passed" and those who "failed". You say to the ones who passed: "My, what nice, good students you are. You are bound to turn into wonderful citizens." You say to the failures that you know they are lazy, shiftless, no good so-and-sos bound to failure in life and so on.

I'll just relate a little incident that happened when I was teaching in Armstrong back in 1954. It was not too long after the war and there was considerably more interest in army cadets and so on than there is today.

I was working in my classroom one evening, preparing lessons for the next day. Beside my classroom, they had torn down the old skating rink building and left the concrete platform. The army cadets were using it as a place to drill, so I could watch out my window and see them doing these various drills for an hour or an hour-and-a-half each evening, about twice a week.

I was flabbergasted when I first saw them go out drilling — it was the first time I had seen them — because the corporals, the sergeants and sergeant-majors and the lieutenants were all boys from our school who were doing the drilling, who were in charge of the activities of the evening under the supervision of an adult officer, and doing an excellent job, and they were the most useless, shiftless, lazy, rebellious students in the school.

Here they were, acting very differently in this other situation. One boy in particular had been written off by virtually every teacher in the school as having no potential for success whatever. He cheated; he had everything wrong with him that you could hope to imagine. And no thanks to our educational system, but thanks to a local church minister in the community, to the army cadets and to a few other interested citizens in the community, he turned into a very fine citizen with a very high level of responsibility, and was honoured when he became the lieutenant-cadet of his particular group of army cadets. He became the leader of his young people's group in the church.

But it was no thanks to that school system, or to me, or to any of the other teachers in that school. There was something very wrong. The thing that was wrong was that our system was designed to always teach the average student; to always get so many papers marked every day; to see so many kids get As and so many people get Bs and so many people get C pluses. You pile them up at the end of the day and say "I have done a great job because there were 3 As. The ones down at the bottom you just forget about; you just pretend they are not there.

The point of this direction in education here is clear: to try to meet the educational requirements of every young person. That is the goal I can support 100 per cent, and that's the direction.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver–Howe Sound): I have a few questions to pose to the Minister, arising from responses she gave to the Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder).

She spoke of the work done for the department by the Research Council in providing a model with respect to teacher requirements. She indicated that she was aware that we were facing a period when teachers would be in short supply. We are, of course, pleased that the Minister is aware, but the questions are: how many are we short? How long is it going to take us to cure that situation? Will we cure that situation by obliging school boards to advertise for teachers outside of the Province of British Columbia, as has happened in the past, or does she foresee that we will be able to meet this need in time from sources of supply which we have in the province?

I would also like to know in connection with the annual requirement for teacher employment whether the Minister could indicate the extent to which the department has examined into the number of teaching positions which became vacant due to attrition in the school system.

I would like to know if the Minister can advise the committee if the anticipated 1,000 positions in British Columbia, which will be vacant because of normal attrition, is due to retirement of teachers having reached retirement age. Or are there other causes such as the dissatisfaction of members of the teaching profession with the educational system in British Columbia? Therefore the desire to leave the profession for other endeavours, either entirely or on a part-time basis. To what extent are we being faced with a situation in British Columbia where teachers are leaving the school system and then making themselves available as substitutes or part-time relief in our system? That's the 1,000 that we must replace by reason of so-called normal attrition.

It is anticipated that in the coming year — the Member for Chilliwack has mentioned this — that improvements in the class size, the teacher-pupil ratio, based upon the standards which the Minister has recommended, will require an additional 1,600 teachers to be engaged by the various school districts in the province. I would like to know whether the Minister agrees that that is the number necessary. Could she indicate to the committee the additional costs that will be faced by the total educational system in British Columbia by reason of that proposal alone?

I've heard some fantastic figures; I have heard figures which would suggest that this proposal would

[ Page 1457 ]

increase the educational costs to the government of British Columbia by about $30 million. I would like to know the extent to which the Minister has considered this factor, and the impact that that kind of expenditure will have upon the ability of this government to assist in sharing the burden of educational cost, rising each year as it is.

More importantly, however, than those particular matters — I do hope the Minister will be able to respond — is the White Paper that we were given yesterday.

I would like to know from the Minister if the presentation of the White Paper at this time is an admission by her that her 18 months in charge of the Department of Education has been an abject failure. That's the only conclusion, Mr. Chairman, that I can draw from this kind of document coming before us at this particular time.

I must say that when the Minister undertook the responsibilities in the late fall of 1972 and began to make pronouncements as to the direction which the Department of Education would take under her Ministry, I, as did many others in the community — teachers and school board trustees alike — looked forward with anticipation to some change in the way in which the Department of Education has discharged its function under previous Ministers.

It appeared that some innovation at the departmental level was to be practised. The Minister was prepared to take a serious look at problems affecting education in this province. The start would be made on the redress of problems which under the previous administration were alleged to be insoluble.

I appreciate that this necessitated a shift of emphasis in the department away from the Deputy Minister and the senior staff level. It was interesting that the Minister was prepared to move in that direction. But it now appears that the Minister has reversed herself and that, in spite of all the task forces and committees which have been established under her authority, we are now returning to the Department of Education and to its senior staff for the changes which we are still awaiting. Nothing makes it clearer than a consideration of the White Paper (The Public School System: Directions for Change) we have before us.

It's interesting that the Hon. Member for Skeena (Mr. Dent), in supporting this White Paper and congratulating the Minister on its production, has dealt only with those aspects of the system as the Minister sees it today — the same system that was in existence when she became the Minister 18 months ago. But the Member for Skeena has not addressed himself, as the Members in this committee must address themselves and as the Minister must address herself, to the section of the White Paper "What Must Be Changed."

If you look carefully at "What Must Be Changed" as seen through the eyes of the Minister you see a clear declaration that in 18 months nothing has been done. We are just beginning now to approach the problems and not even the solutions to the problems of education.

When I consider how hard school trustees, teachers and interested parents have worked over past years and are still working today in an attempt to improve the educational system and meet some of the concerns which the Member for Skeena mentioned on the part of the student, it's shocking to have the Minister say some of the things she says.

"What Must Be Changed. 1. Authority and Responsibility." In this segment of "What Must Be Changed " the Minister makes this outstanding pronouncement:

"Professional educational staff must be deployed in the actual teaching situation or in supportive positions."

Classic. What it means, if I may translate, is that teachers are supposed to be in the classroom teaching or occupying other positions in the school which will support those teachers who are in the classroom teaching.

Is this not what is happening today? Is the Minister prepared to indicate that this is not what is happening today? Are we striving under this new direction for change to reach a situation that already exists today? Is that what the Minister is telling us in that regard?

Point No. 2 in "What Must Be Changed. 2. Programme."

"It is the responsibility of the Department of Education, in conjunction with the board of school trustees and local schools, to provide a comprehensive programme for all students."

Mr. Chairman, for heaven's sake, what have we been doing for all these 102 years that we've had the Public Schools Act in the Province of British Columbia if it hasn't been to charge the Department of Education in conjunction with the board of school trustees and local schools to provide the programme of education in British Columbia? Is this a direction for change: to bring about what we've been required to do under the laws of this province for the last 102 years?

I wonder if the Minister would be good enough to take the committee into her confidence and, in connection with the matter of "Programmes," tell me what she means when she says,

"The Department of Education should establish guidelines for programme and content to ensure that every student in British Columbia has an opportunity to participate equitably in the programme."

Those are the words the Minister used. She goes on to explain those words as follows:

"That is, each student will be offered a core programme, the intent of which will be to

[ Page 1458 ]

ensure the development of functional literacy."

Perhaps it might assist me in understanding the White Paper if the Minister would indicate what she understands to be functional literacy.

I must admit I have concern, as do many parents, about literacy of our students as they leave our school system. We are told by educators, certainly in the secondary schools and also in the universities, that the students can neither read nor write, cannot communicate through the written word. If by this the Minister suggests it is some functional illiteracy perhaps I can understand. But I would like the Minister to indicate if my assessment of the meaning of those words is accurate.

If they are, would she then go on to explain what she means when she says,

"Functional literacy can be developed and encouraged through a programme which is meaningful to students. Therefore, programmes could include subjects such as family life education, consumer education, Canadian studies, structure of government, environmental education, economics, law, labour education, alternative languages, the culture and heritage of British Columbia, art and music appreciation, and physical fitness "?

Would the Minister please indicate how she sees, in these changing directions, those subjects will give functional literacy to the students as they leave our school system?

She also talks about the need for alternative programmes in our schools. I fully support this. All programmes cannot be made interesting, acceptable, nor would they be desirable for each student who enters the school system. But the Minister says, which may seem to be a strange thing:

"The school curriculum must not be organized so that any single body of information to be learned and measured is presented to students, whether or not the information relates to the students' needs."

Would the Minister please explain: if the information relates to the students' needs, should not the school curriculum be organized so that the information to be learned and measured according to those needs should be provided to the students through the curriculum?

The third heading, under "What Must Be Changed," is "Right to Education." Everybody talks about rights. Certainly so far as young people are concerned, the right to education must be paramount in anyone's mind who is considering the Department of Education.

The Minister says: "Under present legislation, the system has no legal responsibility to meet these needs." Have we been deluding ourselves, Madam Minister, over all these years that the public school system in the Province of British Columbia carried on under the Public Schools Act, plus our universities and, more recently, our community colleges have been provided without any legal responsibility on the part of government, boards of school trustees, and the community at large? Have we just been doing this all by reason of whim and not in the fulfilment of any legal responsibility? If that's the case, and we're to have a direction for change, would the Minister please indicate how she intends to make this a legal responsibility on the part of government and the citizens of this province, and how working with other government departments may bring about the effective legislation which she apparently thinks is lacking?

Number four is the organization and administration of the school system in the Province of British Columbia. I gather from what the Minister says that she is concerned about the number of school districts and whether or not the administrative arrangements of this province's school districts is effective. I must agree that this is one area that must be looked at and looked at carefully.

It has been approached by Ministers who preceded her in office, and some significant studies have been made with respect to the melding of school districts and the reorganization of their boundaries. I would like to know whether the Minister proposes to continue any studies in this particular line and how soon we may expect that a concerted effort will be brought to the rationalization of apparent administrative confusion.

Previous reports concerning amalgamation of school districts have suggested that each one is a separate case and that before any amalgamation should take place a careful study on the implications of amalgamation, as it may affect one or two or even three school districts, should be undertaken. Therefore it's a piecemeal approach to administrative rationalization. Is this still the department's policy and, if so, how does the Minister see that policy being brought into action?

The last of the directions for change is one which has bothered every citizen, every member of the board of trustees and, I'm sure, every teacher in the Province of British Columbia. Certainly it has bothered every taxpayer. That is the change in direction required with respect to finance. This brings me back to my first remarks a few moments ago to the Minister. Would she tell us how much more it's going to cost just to bring about the programme announced by her for reduction in class size?

What the Minister has said in the White Paper on finance is most illuminating:

"The government recognizes that in order to meet the educational needs of every student in the system, resources must be distributed on an unequal basis."

This, Mr. Chairman, as she will recognize, indicates

[ Page 1459 ]

a very significant change of position on the part of the Department of Education — if the Minister is quoting accurately — on the part of the government from what we have seen in this province, certainly for the last 20 years, on the distribution of resources on an unequal basis.

The Minister goes on to say that these changes will require a major review of educational finance. May I ask the Minister: when will that review begin, by whom will the review be made, will it involve Members of this assembly or will the study be carried out by persons selected by the Minister or by the cabinet?

The last thing I have to say concerning this White Paper is just to quote what the Minister under the heading of "Finance" said in parentheses: "An equitable education finance system should be developed." Amen to that.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 39 pass?

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: No. The Minister's on her feet. Is the Minister going to respond?

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): We're waiting for the Minister who's on her feet to speak. Apparently she's mopping up the flower pots.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: Yup.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: I'd like to raise a question which comes up frequently and which we really never had a satisfactory reply from this government on. That is the question of independent schools. We've had a statement from the government that the door is closed but not locked, whatever that means. I don't know what it means and I would like to have some clarification.

The plain truth of the matter is that we've had far too much avoidance of this issue from this government and, of course, the previous one as well. It's a well-known fact that the previous Premier supported the concept of assistance to independent schools prior to his election in 1951 and thereupon changed his mind. Since then, until that party was defeated, nothing came from that party which would indicate any change of mind. Now I understand they may be changing their mind again.

The same is true with the present government. There was not a clear position and many people who are parents of children who are attending independent schools are concerned, because they felt they would get some improvement of the financial situation in particular that they face due to the fact that they're taxed by the public school system and at the same time they have elected to send their children to generally religious schools.

The fact is that statements such as "the door is shut but not locked" perhaps is simply playing games with these people and their hopes for the future. The fact is that they bear a very heavy financial burden.

If the Minister and her government intend to make changes, it's only fair that the parents who are in this situation are given some indication of government policy. If it is to be a case of the government changing its mind, well let's have indicated to us what is happening, and let's have indicated to us the proposals that they are considering.

The present situation where private or at least independent schools are closing — such as St. Ann's Academy in Victoria — because of financial difficulty is deplorable. The schools in question are providing education for some 23,000 students in the Province of British Columbia. If these students were thrown onto the public school system, you'd have a proper crisis, Madam Minister. The fact is they are providing a service which would otherwise cost substantial amounts of money from the public treasury.

The fact that frequently people within the public school system point out that it's the independent school system with its lack of bureaucracy which is often the most imaginative in pioneering new programmes should not be overlooked either. For example, the proposals for language instruction and the joint federal-provincial agreements in this area simply were not implemented in the public school system at all with the speed or with the imagination that they were in the independent school system. There are reasons for this. Perhaps some of the Sisters who teach in the independent school system are more capable teachers of French and perhaps other foreign languages as well. The fact is that they have frequently demonstrated their ability to respond quickly and respond imaginatively, come forward with new programmes and do a great deal at less cost than the public school system.

If our public school system is ever to be changed for the good, and I now refer the Minister to her own White Paper, surely this spur that the independent school system provides to compete and do as well as at least the public school system is something which she should not overlook either. It has a positive effect on the public school system which has been too often ignored.

Mr. Chairman, I received a few letters. This is dated February 8:

"Dear Mr. Anderson:

This is my first year at an independent school. My marks have improved and, with a religious course, I have learned to help disabled people."

She hasn't learned to spell "disabled" but that's not a major problem.

"I've always before this gone to a public school, and at these public schools I have been picked on

[ Page 1460 ]

by teachers and had detentions if I'm late to my class, even if I'm only a few seconds late. At the school that I'm at, there is no punishment and I have learned to be on time and to keep out of trouble.

"I may not know how to write a nice letter, but I do know this independent school is just great. And I'm not just writing this to get your vote. It's all a matter of the plain simple truth.

"P.S. Happy Valentine's Day."

Well, I'd like to thank Beth for sending me her Valentine's wishes and also for the letter, which, I think, is a good indication that students themselves can appreciate in many instances the fact that an independent school is less bureaucratic and does in many cases provide opportunities for students who have difficulties or are somewhat out of step with the general average of society. It does provide them with the opportunity for an education which may better suit their particular needs. I feel it is grossly unfair for parents not to receive any assistance whatsoever.

In the Minister's White Paper she talks about "What Must Be Changed," programmes, flexibility in organization, programme alternatives, programme contents, et cetera. Many of these areas are being pioneered in this province by the independent school system.

Another letter I'd like to quote from at this stage is a letter dated February 15:

"Dear Mr. Anderson:

I would like to voice a complaint with you regarding private schools. Last year I sent my little girl to Tillicum public school. During three months she learned absolutely nothing. I had no idea the child was having this problem nor was I notified by the teacher until the beginning of December. By the time I was notified she had fallen hopelessly behind. The room was divided into groups and she was in the lowest group possible.

"She is a quiet, small child. Several times she was knocked down in mud puddles coming out of the school, her lunch kit was broken on two occasions by older students, and a book was taken from her. School left her terrified. I coached her at home and she improved somewhat and limped through grade 1.

"This term we enrolled her in St. Joseph's School. This child has actually flourished so well that one would not believe it was the same child. The devotion of the teachers is wonderful. Today she is one of the very best readers in the class, and is healthy and well-adjusted. The children are well-behaved and taught respect for one another.

"Last year I paid $5,200 in taxes to the city. I would like to know why you cannot designate my school taxes to go to that particular school. I have two more children who will be of school age soon. I resent having to pay tuition at another school when my children are not using the school system provided. I feel that St. Joseph's is far superior, so why can't my share of the school taxes go to the school where I send my children?

"I sincerely hope you will give this matter your immediate attention."

Well, I replied to the gentleman, and I'm trying at this stage to give it the attention that he thinks it deserves and I think it deserves, too.

It seems grossly unfair for people to be taxed for a service and, at the same time, have to provide additional financing. The state itself saves substantial sums of money from their decision to send their children to independent schools. The state itself has the advantage of an independent school system which is experimental. and innovative. The state itself benefits from having a system which deals with the child who is not perhaps of the average or normal 95 per cent of the children in the province. I think it is deplorable that these people are not given straight answers to their requests for financial assistance.

I think we should, Madam Minister, be considering providing assistance for capital construction and, in particular, operations. Obviously the schools in question must meet provincial standards and must be subjected to inspection. That's fair enough if public money is to be used.

But there is no question that the independent schools fill a real role in British Columbia; there is no question they save the public of British Columbia some millions of dollars, many millions of dollars; and there is no question that they are getting the short end of the stick from this government just as they did from the previous one.

I wonder whether the Minister would like to comment on what proposals she might have to assist in this area.

MR. McGEER: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask a few questions about the former commissioner of education in British Columbia.

In November, 1972, I got a press release from the Minister's office saying:

"Articles about John Bremer and his work have appeared in national magazines and journals: Time, Life, Saturday Review, The Atlantic, Reader's Digest, Media and Methods, The Scholastic Teacher, Orbit, Phi Delta Kappa, The Times Educational Supplement. He himself contributes to various publications, including the New York Times and the Saturday Review. He is quoted and discussed in books, most recently in Silverman's Crisis in the Classroom. He was the subject of a paper presented at the 1972 meeting of the Comparative and

[ Page 1461 ]

International Education Society of Canada."

Mr. Chairman, I was impressed with that release. I had raised a question or two in the House and the Minister leaped to the defence of Mr. Bremer. When this press release came along I knew we had somebody who really knew what he was doing in the field of education. A quality product.

Now we come to this past winter and the television show. The Minister was in the east. Someone who was very concerned with education and a strong supporter of Mr. Bremer was one of the moderators on the panel, a gentleman from Victoria named Mr. Walter Donald. He asked the Premier a question about educational change. There's a long, confused answer here and I'm not going to bother reading that because it would be embarrassing to the Premier.

Finally Mr. Donald broke in and said: "You're not giving them a forum. I think, quite frankly, the commissioner of education is window-dressing." This man that had been quoted in The Times, and Life and all these places.

"Barrett: 'I think he's been a bit of a failure, and I think that, you know, we've already taken steps to recognize that, you know. That approach was a bit of a flop, and I admit that publicly.'"

I'm quoting word for word. You really pay a penalty, you know. I don't know who taught English at Britannia in the old days.

"Moderator Jack Wasserman: 'Has he been placed on notice?'

"Barrett: 'Well, ah, you can interpret that any way you want, but, you know, that was a bit of a flop.'

"Wasserman: 'Is he fired?'

"Barrett: 'Well….'

"Wasserman: 'Or are you moving him sideways?'

"Jumble of voices,

"Barrett: 'Well, he's been a….it's been a bit of a flop. Okay? You know, we'd hoped that out of that kind of dialogue we'd get some kind of direction. You know, it's interesting. I wish I knew. I wish we did know. The perplexity of the problem I think can be best answered by the kind of hostility that we got from some segments of the population when we said there will be no more strapping of children….'"

Well, I'm not going to go on quoting from the erudition of the Premier. But something happened between the very lucid description of John Bremer in that press release — the magazines, national and international, that had quoted his achievements — and the somewhat less than articulate interview with the Premier indicating that he'd been, ah, a bit of a flop, you know.

The Premier said the matter of educational changes has been kicked around in the cabinet. I'd like to know if Mr. Bremer was kicked around in the cabinet. He was strapped on television — executed. You might say the "censored" was kicked out of him. What the Premier says inside the chamber is different from what he says outside the chamber, we know that. Well, I don't think he'd want his corridor remarks to be quoted in here; certainly I wouldn't quote them.

Mr. Chairman, we've had no real explanation from either the Premier or the Minister of Education as to what this commissioner was doing, in their minds, that led him to be a bit of a flop in British Columbia; whereas the press releases issued by that Department of Education indicated what a fantastic success he had been everywhere else.

My question is this: was Mr. John Bremer out of step or are the Premier and the Minister of Education out of step? Who is right about educational change, Mr. Chairman: Time, Life, the New York Times Supplement, Saturday Review, the author of Crisis in the Classroom, The Atlantic, Reader's Digest — all these people who apparently said Mr. Bremer was right in his approach — or is it the Premier and the Minister of Education who are wrong and don't understand?

I think it's up to the Minister of Education to give us a pretty frank and full account of: what the expectations were for Mr. Bremer; exactly what it was that was kicked around in cabinet; why it was essential to terminate him and his commission in mid-stream; what alternatives her department is putting forward that are better; and finally and most importantly, what excuse the Minister can give for wasting the taxpayers' money of British Columbia in continuing this man's salary.

If he violated the terms of his contract, if he established that he was incompetent, then the Minister has grounds for his dismissal. If he was competent and is competent, the Minister should have some other assignment that makes full use of his talents and justifies the continuance of payments to him. What is intolerable is to have the public's money used as a payoff to avoid political embarrassment. That's what the Minister has to explain: why the taxpayers' money should be used in this fashion; because the taxpayers' money is being used in this fashion right now. It started on March 1.

We of course will be asking similar questions of the Minister of Transport (Hon. Mr. Strachan) when his estimates come up, because in the ICBC public money is being used as a payoff. It's intolerable.

Mr. Chairman, I saw the progress report put out by Mr. John Bremer. I read it and I know others did too. It received high praise from Dr. John McDonald, who was formerly president of the University of British Columbia anti is now chairman of the universities

[ Page 1462 ]

commission in Ontario. I had occasion to discuss it with him. I don't know where this piece of garbage came from that was tabled in the House yesterday: "The Public School System: Directions for Change."

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! I don't think that it's appropriate in this place to use a word of that nature to describe a document tabled in this House.

MR. McGEER: Well, I think it's rubbish. I think it's nonsense. I don't think it's worth the paper it's printed on.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! The Hon. Member may criticize the contents, but a document tabled in the House should be…at least, the language should be suitable for this place.

MR. McGEER: I think it's appropriate for the document. Now it may not be suitable for the Legislative Assembly, and I'll modify my remarks to say it's not worth the paper that it's printed on. It isn't. Five pages long and not a single piece of data in it! If it had been given as a speech by someone, it wouldn't have got a line of attention.

It was only reported because it's an official document with "K.M. MacDonald, Printer to the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty" underneath it. There are five vague points and not a single bit of substantiating data for any of them — not one bit of substantiating data. In all the years that Minister sat in the House, presumably studying the educational system, did she gather no data at all in this time?

Look here, Mr. Chairman, on the last page, page 5: "An equitable finance system should be developed." Mr. Chairman, in heaven's name, that Minister's been in this House for eight years; she's been the Minister of Education for 17 months. This isn't the time to present something that wouldn't do credit to a newcomer in this assembly as a maiden speech on the subject of education. If you've been sitting around this long and you have to present a document saying,"An equitable finance system should be developed," what in heaven's name have we been paying her as a Minister for? Haven't you been able to do anything in all that time?

Well, I think appropriate questions have to be asked regarding official documents that have been put in the assembly. Why is it that you've been in office for almost half your term — your only term — and you still haven't figured out what an education finance formula should be? You should be able to put it down in a document in great detail and defend every comma of it. That was the last page.

Let me go to the first page. We've got lots of time.

HON. D. BARRETT (Premier): What time does your plane leave tomorrow?

MR. McGEER: When does your plane leave for Japan? That's what you're worried about isn't it? In fact, that's all you're worried about. You've got a House to run and a province to look after and that's more important than your rugby game in Japan. So we don't need any coaching to hurry. I think we're going to take our time and see that the appropriate questions are asked and we hope that they're answered.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Do we come to the House every day to do it? You're only here three days.

MR. McGEER: Every single day. Every single day we're going to be here.

Interjections.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR. McGEER: Every day until the end, and if we're going to be here on Tuesday, April 16, I'll be here. I'll be here on Wednesday.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday we know you'll be here, but how about Monday and Friday?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

MR. McGEER: Saturdays too.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! I would ask the Hon. Members not to interrupt the speaker. Others want to hear his speech. Would the Hon. Member continue?

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: He does more in three days than the Premier does in a month.

MR. McGEER: Mr. Chairman, on page 1 of this document:

"We believe that a major responsibility of the school system is to provide a measure of success for every student. The fact that it fails to do this in some instances calls for an examination of the whole structure within which the student is expected to learn."

How many failures are there in our school system?

We have just finished reading an English essay of the Premier's. You got a failing grade in English and a failing grade in human relations on that occasion, but it wasn't the only one, Mr. Premier.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order! Would the Hon. Member address the Chair and would the Hon. Member…?

[ Page 1463 ]

MR. McGEER: I am being interrupted, Mr. Chairman. I am doing my best to concentrate, but I've got a short attention span when I'm heckled. (Laughter.)

AN HON. MEMBER: You can count to five.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Hon. Premier allow the Hon. Member to speak, please?

MR. McGEER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Nothing could ever stop him.

MR. McGEER: I would like to know from the Minister of Education how many failures there are in this school system of ours.

Interjections.

MR. McGEER: We're graduates; our failures are behind us. Yours are still to come.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Don't turn your back on David!

MR. McGEER: I thought you were going to keep that Member in order. We used to have someone else sitting in that chair who was disorderly too, Mr. Chairman. We pleaded with the Chairman before to keep him in order, and neither the Chairman nor the Premier took our advice — and you know where they are today.

The Minister of Education should have data, if there are failures in our school system, as to how many failures there are and as to what the nature of that failure is. She has the resources and she has the responsibility.

To make a flat statement like this, unbacked by any kind of data or information at all, and table it as an official document, I think is disgraceful.

We had a far more comprehensive statement from the former commissioner of education in which he spelled out in rather precise detail what should be done and why. We haven't got either of those things from you in this document. All we have is vague mish-mash. Its only virtue is its brevity.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Too bad you don't have that same virtue.

MR. McGEER: Mr. Chairman, will you keep that Member in order? I am trying to complete my speech.

HON. G.R. LEA (Minister of Highways): You have all night and all day tomorrow.

MR. McGEER: And the next day and the next day, if necessary.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Not Fridays or Mondays. Now get that straight.

MR. McGEER: No, we were here yesterday. We will be here tomorrow and we will be here on Friday.

Mr. Chairman, I don't want to take up a great deal of time this afternoon, but I want to make it very clear to the Minister that we consider it essential that she give an explanation of the circumstances of Mr. Bremer's dismissal, and an account of his future responsibilities or why our money is continuing to be spent on him. We want to hear a better defence than she has given of the document she has presented, which is a pretty pathetic comparison to the one which Mr. Bremer released.

I wonder if we could hear from the Minister, Mr. Chairman.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: I wanted to go back to the Hon. Member for West Vancouver–Howe Sound (Mr. L.A. Williams) who brought up a number of concerns.

He was asking about the attrition rate. I don't think you will find that's varied greatly over the years, Mr. Member. From my information, the data we have, it's still usually the same reasons for the attrition rate: retirement and primarily young teachers who leave to raise families.

We have no signs, Mr. Member, that there is a greater attrition rate because of frustration with the system. I think if you will check your annual report — I don't know if you have or not seen the figures there — we are fairly optimistic that in September the needs of the school boards, which will all be identified before April 20, can be met in large measure for the September enrolments. The school boards will have ample time for the hiring of the teachers. This year we think that we should be able to cope with it.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS: Hiring out of province.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: Well, hopefully not. I am going to suggest to the boards that they look into the area of hiring part-time teachers. We have been meeting on this. We will be having discussions with them on it. There do seem to be other measures without having…. We may — I won't say we won't — have to go outside the province. It may be necessary.

As you know, the enrolments are certainly not increasing at any great…. In fact there is a slow growth in enrolment.

When I spoke to you earlier, I did want to point out that with the commitment of the government, we do have to look ahead the next couple of years and

[ Page 1464 ]

further than that to possibly having shortages, in certain areas particularly. I think for this September, working with the school boards closely, we should be able to meet our needs by and large.

Another area the Member brought up was his concern about functional literacy. In the Paper there it does state that we think of functional literacy primarily, I suppose, as skills of communication which enable the student to be able to read, to write, to compute, to hear, to understand and to judge. That is primarily what we are talking about when we talk about functional literacy.

Programme: you asked me what is the point of mentioning these subjects consumer education, law, labour, et cetera, in terms of being meaningful to the students, or making their learning, not more desirable, but perhaps easier for them to learn their core subjects.

I think you, yourself, know with your own children when they were young, Mr. Member, they could learn a lot if they were motivated. You saw that from the time they were born and in their growth pattern. All we are suggesting here is that if you can create subjects around the core subjects in areas which the young people today are vitally interested in, at the same time as they are studying those subjects they can be proving their functional literacy.

The matter of the school district reorganization. I quite agree with the Member, that this is something that has to be done very carefully. You have to work very closely with school boards in an examination of any amalgamation.

I'm hopeful that we will have Members of the House who will be able to participate with us in those studies. I mean Members of all parties, not just ours. I will be elaborating on that one further because I think it is a vital area that all parties would be concerned with. I am sure that the school boards would be pleased to know that all Members of the House, those who are interested, might have an opportunity to participate in looking at reorganization, deciding whether it is necessary.

Interjection.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: I can't tell you that yet, Mr. Member, because at the moment the trustees, the teachers and the department are completing their survey. We first of all have to find out what the requirements are out there, so I can't tell you that. By April 20 it should be fairly common knowledge what it will cost for the coming year because we have assured the school boards that they will know by that date what moneys are going to be allotted for the coming year. By that time you certainly will be told, but I can't give you the figures at this time. We have that responsibility to tell the school boards before they set their local levies by April 20.

In the matter raised by the Member for Vancouver–Point Grey (Mr. McGeer): I think at the time when I did issue a press release on Mr. Bremer's dismissal, I did say that I appreciated his philosophy, his humanitarianism, many of his ideals. Mr. Bremer and I had a very basic difference in the style of operations. The matter of the objectives to be achieved, in my opinion, could not be achieved in Mr. Bremer's operational style. I was looking, eventually, for some concrete suggestions.

You referred to Mr. Bremer's report. I just want to point out that that was a university task force, certainly chaired by Mr. Bremer, and there were other members involved in it. It was quite different from the paper I put out which is simply and basically a philosophical statement: direction for education. It was not a task force moving around the province to produce that, obviously. There is quite a difference.

MR. H.A. CURTIS (Saanich and the Islands): You know, yesterday when I received my copy of the white leaflet — I'm sorry, the White Paper — I looked to see where the rest of it was because I really couldn't believe that this was the much heralded document which we had all been waiting for as other speakers have mentioned.

Five pages with wide margins, with lots of indentations — probably, as the Member suggests, it cost $100 a word. This fifth page doesn't use up all the space. It's hardly heavy enough to fall on the ground if you let go. It would make a beautiful dart.

Is this, after 18 months, the Minister's best effort in education matters in a department which requires such a large percentage of our…?

Good afternoon, Mr. Premier.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Good afternoon.

MR. CURTIS: …which requires such a large part of our tax dollar?

I really wondered if this was the preamble. Then I saw on the inside page that, in fact, the preamble covered about three paragraphs. Could we say that this is a bit of a flop and a bit of a failure? I wonder if that would be appropriate language.

"A bit of a flop and a bit of a failure" — the Premier's comments on a man who was engaged to look into education in British Columbia but who was apparently not given the correct terms of reference or sufficiently broad terms of reference and whose position was not thoroughly analysed before he was engaged. So we found to our dismay and disappointment and to our expense just a few months later that he apparently was not acceptable to the Premier and/or the Minister.

I suspect that it was the Premier who was dissatisfied first. When you look at the newspaper

[ Page 1465 ]

stories at that particular time, you see a very prompt turnaround on the part of the Minister of Education with respect to Mr. Bremer. In The Vancouver Sun on January 12 of this year the headline was "Dailly Comes to Defence of Embattled School Czar." But presumably right after that she checked with the boss. This was the first edition. Then she checked with the boss and the situation changed very dramatically. A little later: "Dailly Confirms Firing — Bremer Didn't Listen Enough."

I haven't heard nearly enough and I think school teachers and principals and administrators and parents and students and taxpayers have not heard enough from the Minister of Education since this session convened at the end of January with respect to Mr. Bremer and why he was such a terrific idea in 1973 and, very early in 1974, a bit of a flop and a bit of a failure.

Let's have some answers from the Minister of Education on this matter. Let's have her take as long as is necessary to explain why this internationally recognized educator suddenly turned out to be sour in the eyes of the Premier, the Minister of Education and perhaps others in the cabinet so that we have this outstanding flip-flop, from great to flop, from just a fine guy who's going to do a great deal for education in the province to "Well, he didn't listen enough; he didn't work out; he was a failure."

I liked the lines in the Vancouver Province editorial just at about that time.

HON. MR. BARRETT: What paper was that?

MR. CURTIS: The Province. It comes out every morning.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Is that that socialist paper?

MR. CURTIS: This is a pretty good paper, as a matter of fact, a pretty good paper.

He's feeling a little better today. Since the Member continues to interrupt, Mr. Chairman, I like most newspapers. I read The Victoria Express and I struggle through the Sun and I struggle through The Province. I'd like to talk about my newspaper clippings in just a few moments. I even read The Globe and Mail; I get copies of The Globe and Mail sent to me. One particular edition, as a matter of fact; one edition seems very popular across the country.

Interjection.

MR. CURTIS: Well, this one is uncensored.

Interjection.

MR. CURTIS: Interesting. Very interesting to have those coming in almost every day.

In The Province on Saturday, January 12: "Bremer's Failure — Whose Fault?" Perhaps most Members have read the editorial, but at the bottom of the centre column it says:

"But his failure is also in large part the failure of Education Minister Eileen Dailly. Her first major effort to reshape education in B.C. was obviously ill-conceived and badly thought out. And as it was in the process of falling apart, other problems indicated that oddly, for a former teacher, she didn't seem to understand the linking of cause and effect."

There's more than one person in British Columbia educational circles today, Mr. Chairman, who is a bit of a failure and a bit of a flop.

My collection of newspaper articles from the education file is a sorry collection of headlines, editorials, editorial comments, special articles, which list a continuing story of confusion and, as the Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) said so effectively yesterday, abrupt changes in direction.

We expected more from this Minister of Education. I've read her remarks in the old edited Hansard. Is that right? — edited. The edited versions of Hansard from 1970 and 1971.

Interjection.

MR. CURTIS: And, Mr. Chairman, I liked what she had to say, at that time and in that context, when the freezes were on, when gymnasia could not be built, when the dollar squeeze was at its tightest with respect to school buildings and facilities. But I'm not satisfied with what we're hearing now from the Minister of Education. I'm not satisfied with these continuing changes in direction, with this uncertainty…

Interjection.

MR. CURTIS: I think he'll be back, Mr. Chairman.

Interjection.

MR. CURTIS: Would you like to put some money on it?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. CURTIS: …changes in direction in the past and absolutely no assurance as we stand here today that there will not be more abrupt changes and uncertainty in the future.

This is quite a collection when you look through the files for the last 14, 15, 16 months and see some of the headlines: "Bremer's Failure — Bremer Didn't Listen Enough," "Bremer Still Talks About Education," "Love Them and Leave Them —

[ Page 1466 ]

Two-faced Education Policy." This is from The Province on March 2 of this year. That lovely one: "Dailly Comes to Defence of Embattled School Czar." That was in the first edition but not in the last one. "Teacher's President Puts Classroom Rap on Government."

Interjection.

MR. CURTIS: You can send the money over, Mr. Premier. It was 25 cents wasn't it?

"Dailly Encouraged Spending — Trustee." We're going to have to examine that in greater detail, I think — the sudden about-face with respect to the spending by school boards. "Go ahead; the lid is off. We want you to catch up on these years of neglect. Do the very best you can; get back on track." And then — weeks later, months later — "Whoa, too much. What are you doing, irresponsible school boards? Hold it back."

Changes, counter changes, decisions, amended decisions, abandoned decisions. That has been the story of this Minister's efforts on behalf of students, teachers, educators, parents and taxpayers in British Columbia since she came to office.

I'd like to have a little more to say but, again, I think the lead-off speaker for the opposition side of the House yesterday, the Member for Chilliwack, spoke very well. I think he spoke very well indeed in his observations about education.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Do you want the strap back too?

MR. CURTIS: I thought he spoke very well.

Interjection.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please.

MR. CURTIS: May I respond since I have the floor at the moment? I've agreed with some of the things you've said, Mr. Premier, from time to time. I don't agree with everything you say.

The Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) spoke very well on some of the basic issues in education in B.C. today.

Interjection.

MR. CURTIS: No, not the strap — you know we don't mean the strap.

This Minister again, to use the most famous educational phrase of the year so far in this province, I feel is a bit of a flop and a bit of a failure.

MR. P.C. ROLSTON (Dewdney): Mr. Chairman, it's always interesting to listen to this great litany.

You know, in the Old Testament there's a book called Lamentations. I guess lamenting is a very important part of life, but we also need to celebrate. We need to look at what we're doing. We need to get out of this kind of valley that some of the opposition seem to continually leave us in in this discussion on surely what is one of the most important Ministries — the whole business of education, not just of children but all people.

I'm delighted in this, I think, very excellent document which we just received. It talks about continuing education, the climate of education from kindergarten to our senior years.

I don't find it very helpful, Mr. Chairman, to hear this lamenting litany of the people on this side of the House who can pull out their file on education, go to the headlines and just read the headlines and give this kind of cynical emphasis. I didn't hear anything creative.

There's one thing I still wait for. Some of my colleagues on that side of the House tell me this will never happen, but I was brought up in a capitalist, "free enterprise," conservative household. In fact, I'm looking forward to having dinner with my parents in about three-quarters of an hour. I was told about all the terrible aspects of the CCF and the NDP. It was like a disease. It was contagious.

There were many fables and many naive notions in the CCF movement, just as in any movement. But one of the things I find so disappointing about this Legislature is that there is no clear presentation of their point of view, their positive approach — whether it's education or whether it's Col-Cel or whatever it is — and our approach, so that the two philosophies on education are clearly delineated and the people can take their choice. I'm waiting for that kind of debate. I mention this, Mr. Chairman, in the context of education, because there are no neat answers.

I had tea with the Minister of Education and six young fellows from an "Education for Life" programme in Mission. This was three weeks ago, up in the legislative dining room. There were many setbacks in that programme, and many disappointments. It's a very innovative programme that's costing over $2,000 per student, and yet I congratulate the Mission School Board and the departments of Education and Human Resources for at least risking that kind of programme. There have been several setbacks, but I would like to think that we're willing to take those kinds of risks. We're willing to get out of the depression of doing the Bremer thing, or just going off on some very negative kind of emphasis, and we're willing to use some positive approaches.

This is one positive approach. There was a full-page story yesterday about the kids in school, and there are kids in school who are very, very difficult to reach. One of the principals is sitting right

[ Page 1467 ]

now in the Speaker's gallery — the principal of Agassiz Senior Secondary School. I'm sure he would agree with me that there are some kids who are very difficult to reach and who have always been difficult to reach. But believe me, unless we have a positive, caring, trusting kind of approach, such as the "Education for Life" programme in Mission and many other approaches, we will not reach these kids. There will be casualties.

I want to say three things in this little talk. I want to talk about the purpose of education; I want to talk about the quality of education; I want to say something about specifically the community colleges, which are on my agenda as an MLA in the Fraser Valley.

I feel that the programme for education, speaking personally as one who has spent 19 years in the educational system as a student, didn't always meet my needs. There were times when I really wondered if I was part of a factory. It could have been grade 1 or it could have been fourth year university. It was that real feeling that I was just part of a process. I certainly hope and I will push within my caucus and in the Legislature to see that the personal needs of children are really heard. That's why I keep trying to get a response from this Legislature and discuss with my Minister the need to spend a great deal of time in those formative years.

The Roman Catholic Church has told us and many other groups have told us that if we don't do a job by the time the child is seven years old, we know that he does not have good feelings about himself. He does not have okay feelings. This is why I'm glad you told me there is 41 per cent increase in the kindergarten enrolment. I heard you a month ago. I would really hope that more and more of that is true.

I just want to mention Agassiz. Actually Agassiz was one of the first districts to have a kindergarten and a community day-care programme. We need to develop an attitude of curiosity, an attitude of wonder and an attitude of sheer amazement. We have little daffodils sitting around here. I feel somewhat cheated not getting a daffodil, but the sense of wonder of that flower…. I don't know why it is, but sometimes we go through this process and I guess we become part of that system.

I'll never forget when I was in first-year seminary in Halifax. A physics professor came to visit that first-year seminary class. He was to talk about science and religion, and he went to the light switch and he turned on and off the switch. He asked the students….

Oh, thank you.

MR. D.M. PHILLIPS (South Peace River): It should be an apple for the teacher.

MR. ROLSTON: I prefer daffodils.

That dean of graduate studies at Dalhousie, in turning off and on the switch, asked the students: "Well, what is electricity? Could you tell me what electricity is?" Of course, we'd all done the first-year course, Physics 103 at UBC, and we all put up our hands because we knew what electricity was. And then he very graciously, without being condescending to us, helped us realize that we didn't have a clue what electricity is. We have formulas, we have mathematical systems, but he was trying to help us to see some sense of wonder.

Our government, I see, is now looking at direct current — a certain type of electricity for electrifying Vancouver Island. But I would hope in the formative years, and in the whole process, that the whole business of curiosity, of wonder and of motivation allows us to be open.

You are getting a very negative reaction even from some NDP people — even some prominent NDPers in my riding — regarding the strap. Yet the same people unfortunately don't have an open mind. Sometimes they are put in very significant positions in school. I just hate to think of the cumulative effect of that negative, restricted kind of mind, and that bothers me. And I'm talking about my own movement, the NDP movement. There can be.

So we are appealing, in this most essential Ministry, that the purpose of education allow for growth, for wonder and for openness. It is very tempting to talk about the hypothesis of faith, whether it's the hypothesis of that dean of physics at Dalhousie or the scientist having faith in the hypothesis of what electricity is. We must have a faith system, and we must be true to that faith system. Quite frankly, I think that means the teachers must be encouraged to have a sense of what is their system.

I used to read about the valueless educational system — that it was apolitical and did not have a value system, I was delighted to go to a couple of teachers association conventions in the last month. They disregarded that. Especially in Maple Ridge it was very obvious that they know there is a value system. There is a system that teachers can hang their thoughts on — not that they're going to be arrogant with that system, but they have to be true to themselves. And that, I think, is part of the educational process.

You have heard me so many times and I'm not going to belabour the need for family life education. I see that in your little — I was going to say "tract" — statement here on page 3 you make an emphasis on family life education. Really it is a tract. It is something that will get around. You say it is a discussion paper. We want to allow a discussion. But I'm glad to see on page 3 you emphasize family life education.

If we need clarity here I would encourage you to do more with the whole business of health, hygiene,

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nutrition — the whole need to just look at what it is to grow, physically and emotionally. We talk about maturation in psychology. That can be dealt with very creatively in family life education. There's the whole business of sexuality — the emotional, physical and spiritual context of what it is to be a sexual person. There's the whole need for children at a very early age to look at credit, legal and budgeting matters and to look at what it is to communicate, Madam Minister — the whole business of communicating.

I have always said, and you've heard me on this, that the teacher benefits, the teacher. We have some excellent people. We have Bruce Cooper, the principal of Hatzic Senior Secondary School with a programme ready to go, and with a high school staff ready to go — admittedly with some political problems within the district of Mission, which our school board is working on. With grace we will have a family life education programme to go in Hatzic Senior Secondary.

A brand new school, incidentally, opened about two years ago. We need to look, at a very early age in the educational process, at the role of the family. I'm committed to the family. But the educational process must complement the family, not take away from the family. So I would like to see more looking at that, looking at parenting, looking at shared responsibility.

I'm glad to see teachers talk about collegiality of sharing decisions — not to just have a tyrant as the principal, but that the staff…. I'm told — and you nod your head if I'm right — that to be a teacher in the Vancouver School Board, collegiality of shared decisions is one of the things they'll ask you about if you go into that school board to teach.

They're hoping for teachers and certainly administrators that will begin the process of sharing decisions — that there's a group. I'm sure there are different words used to describe this group within a school. In family life we talk about the expanded family. We talk about simulation games. You know, it would be lovely to have simulation games in this place, just to see some of the predictable roles.

We talk about the emotional and the mental aspects of growing up, and the spiritual and the aesthetic aspects. You know, I've got to concede that when we had discussions on independent schools…. You know, it's very tempting to promote independent schools. It's very tempting. Unless our often bland school system becomes a little more open, a little more eager and adaptable, and able to, as you say, be happy about change…. Of course, change is inevitable.

Unless we're to respond to change rather than getting this often uptight kind of response, I believe that the independent school is going to be a fact of life. We're told in some states — the State of New York being one — that the independent school is going great guns statistically. I don't believe that's necessary, but I think the secular school system must be able to provide that pluralism, that drive and flexibility, which the independent schools do offer.

I remember spending an afternoon with Remi De Roo, the Bishop of Victoria, and he's quite a chap to talk to — a brilliant man. It was pretty convincing to hear what he is saying.

While I'm on the independent schools, Madam Minister, I don't see why you can't bus children in independent schools. I can't believe that kids, that students in the Agassiz area, for instance — and there are some long trips that buses make — can't at least be bused in the same bus that takes the children to the Agassiz Senior Secondary School. Surely we can do that. I understand, Madam Minister, that your department is turning its head a little bit; it's allowing this to happen now. It was a problem. I appreciate that the Act really should be changed but we should at least allow the busing of children to independent schools.

Also I would just like to ask whether the changes in the Public Schools Act will allow for textbooks for the students in the independent schools. I would hope that that's possible.

In talking about quality of education, we need to talk about styles. Now we could spend a lot of time about styles. I understand, Madam Minister, that educators say that at one time there was the authoritarian style; then there came the permissive style of the late '50s, early '60s; then there came what they called the academic style — the Sputnik — the anxiety about the scientific method and technology. And we're told now — at least I heard several educators at these conventions say — we're now in the humanitarian style of education. That makes me very hopeful, if that is true.

I was most impressed with a vice-principal called Lafferty, from Eric Hamber Senior Secondary — a very helpful fellow. He spoke about these styles. Now what we need to work out in this Legislature, and listen to the province, is that as we have styles we must not…. This is not the same as being permissive. This simply allows for a variety of styles.

If we can talk about Eric Hamber, we can be talking about a programme for 70 grade 11 students, within that senior high school, on the humanities. The students were here three days ago with their teachers and I met with them at lunch.

It will allow an emphasis on the humanities. It would include political science, of course, which incidentally I didn't have the benefit of learning when I was in high school. We should allow a pluralism, of course, in that public school system.

Now this means that it's very important that we don't judge. It's very important that we don't try to say that this is a humanitarian programme, or possibly an athletic programme, or that this programme would take all of the grade 11 students,

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or at least would spend a lot of time with students on the environmental aspects: environment in math, environment in physics, biology, chemistry, geography, social studies. You could spend a year at looking at the environmental factors on the same material. It's very important that we don't judge.

I think it's very important that the public schools, Madam Minister…. In a sense they seem like a vast compound, a vast community in themselves. I use the analogy of the shopping centre. I don't know if that would be useful, but personally it's meaningful to me. The public school would simply be like a shopping centre where there is a variety, where many things are happening.

Maybe there should be a little concession even, a Dairy Queen, a McDonald's, or something as part of that cluster, that compound, where, of course, we involve the people from the community. Have you ever thought of having a Public Health Centre right in a high school?

We have a library in Agassiz. The library is in the school, the same library. It opens out on the street; it opens into the high school. Now I really don't see why more and more agencies couldn't be part of this public school compound. Again we have to respond. We have to make sure we don't lay this on to school districts.

I understand, for instance, that in Surrey the superintendent of schools is the kind that's going to lay on this idea of the humanities programme in Surrey School District. I would have preferred that that had been worked out. I would hope that that was worked out with the staff and the students and school board — that it was truly a democratized decision rather than something like, "We will do this. "

Of course, in family life you must never impose. It must be worked out by the people. There are some very, very capable people.

This brings up the whole business, Madam Minister, that there are some very excellent teachers and very excellent people on the school board. I'm very lucky in my riding with some of the people elected as school trustees, and many of the educators.

You know and I know that the best way for things to happen is to make them believe it's their thing. In a positive way we respond to what is happening and we build on that.

A lot of things that are happening are not that new. I remember well back in my time — and the Member for North Vancouver–Capilano (Mr. Gibson) went to the same high school as I did — there were some very innovative things happening. I'm thinking of James Inkster and the principal of West Van. High School. Some very, very innovative, shared, collegial decisions were made — I won't say how many years ago. He's in North Vancouver now.

Now I would also like to talk about localized curriculum — again a shared local thing. We must, of course, have the basic skills — and you said this. All the Members, I think, have emphasized that too much. But I believe that a great deal of the skills are in the area…and many of the resource people are available, and I would like to see much more coming from organized labour as far as developing skills in the vocational programme. I'd like to see the students in the vocational programme somehow learn about the world and the world of apprenticeship, of being part of a union, of the actual job situation, so that the continuity is much more obvious.

They need exposure, and I would hope that as we develop localized curricula that can be much more possible.

Now in talking about professionalism, I always understood that the definition of a professional person was one who was simply trained to do a specific job, and that his training was essential to do that job. I gather that at the AGM of the B.C. Teachers' Association, this is going to be discussed. What is professionalism? How can we police ourselves as professional teachers?

Now at the school conventions I was at when discussions came up and when some provocative things were said about the teachers policing themselves, there was an awkwardness; I think that's to be expected. Any professional group does at times find it difficult to police itself.

One person suggested, one teacher suggested, that they should have a voucher system. I can't quite see how that could operate, but he used the analogy of B.C. Medical: just as we pay a doctor we pay a teacher, through some kind of a prepaid educational programme. I've difficulty with that, but possibly that could be looked at.

But certainly the idea that they must look at themselves, they must decide…. I think there are two very basic things when it comes to professionalism. One is the ability to be able to make meaningful decisions and, having had proper professional training, I do feel that's very necessary. I can concede that many schools could have a manager.

Maybe the schools could take away a lot of the drudgery of paper work. I'm sure that my friend who is in the galleries would agree. There's a great deal of paper work in being an administrator. Much of that could be done. It would even be better value probably for our money if we had managers in many of these schools to do that.

I certainly hope that the teachers can look at the quality of teachers, look at what it is to be a professional person. I am glad this will be discussed at their convention in the spring. I feel it's very important that this Legislature uphold the profession of the teacher. It's a very important, very useful and an extremely vital role in the community.

I think any professional person would be happy to have upgrading. I'm not quite sure what your

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department expects of upgrading. I know in my profession you must go back to school every three years; that is expected of you. Again, maybe I could hear from you precisely what the Act and the regulations say regarding upgrading.

The last thing I wanted to say was about community colleges, and I'll be as brief as I can.

I think I have shared this with the Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder): we will be getting a community college. We had a very good vote, I think — about an 88 per cent vote. Less than 15 per cent of the people came out for this referendum, but they did vote for a community college.

I understand from looking at the enrolment projection for community colleges, the academic seems to stay at a bit of a level, at around the 33 per cent kind of a level. But the career-technical is increasing. The college preparatory programme…. This is very important — many, many people in the Fraser Valley want to upgrade themselves; they want to be ready; at least have grade 12, if not grade 13. So the college preparatory programmes ultimately will be taking 25 per cent of the expected emphasis in the community colleges in this province by 1978. The regular vocational-technical programme will be taking an increasing amount — 20 per cent — so really the technical and vocational will be taking 45 per cent. I do hope that's reflected in the community college.

I read the report; I'm impressed with the report. Quite frankly, at times I think the school trustees and the students in the central Fraser Valley in a sense might be more innovative even than those people who did that task for us. I hope they are. I really believe they are. I spent part of yesterday talking to a school trustee from Agassiz in this regard.

I do hope, and I make it very public, that the continuity of the programming in that valley college reflects very directly to the unique needs of the central and eastern Fraser Valley. I worry that we will simply have a university first-year transfer programme, which I think you can put on in nearly any classroom. You could put it on in the two committee rooms right behind you, with the exception of labs and library. That could be too easy. I do hope, and I make this very public — I wish the Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) and the Member for Yale-Lillooet (Hon. Mr. Hartley) were here to hear — that we need a specially designed technical-vocational programme as well as the usual university transfer programme.

I made a speech prior to this on the kind of curricula…we don't need to be brilliant working out a curricula programme.

The second thing and last thing I'd like to say is that we do need to look at educational television. I hear Barrie Clark has been contracted to work on educational television. I hope this is educational television, not just the hardware of television, but education….

Interjection.

MR. ROLSTON: I see, well, I was hoping that we would hear something on educational programming.

As you know, in the Fraser Valley there are many little communities; some of them are at quite a distance. Hope is quite a distance from Agassiz and Chilliwack, Mission and Abbotsford. Educational television could do a great deal as a very exciting prototype: of education for this province.

There are several constituencies involved in this discussion. I appeal to you; I hope you will make a real effort.

Back in college I can think of about 45 profs I had; I can think of about eight very exciting professors, very exciting teachers. I know that those people could be available through either cassette programming or other kinds of television programming so that people in Agassiz, Mission, Hope, Yale, wherever, can have the benefit of the very best educators in post-secondary.

Again, let's not be cynical; let's get out of the lamenting; let's really look at meaningful solutions to education. Thank you.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: First of all, I want to thank and congratulate the Member who just took his seat for giving a speech that had obvious positive content in it.

I have made notes here of a number of items that he brought up, and he's not just criticizing and knocking something, he's actually proposing things. It's very worthwhile.

One of, these particular questions he was asking about was: can we not combine public health services within a school core centre? As a matter of fact some of the community schools that are developing now have the intention of combining services to people, including day-care centres. Some of them already have these incorporated within the community school concept. I know that there are some schools that are thinking about trying to pull together the health services in that community school core. In fact I think some have started already. We have to give them the encouragement to do it, of course. We've provided the legislation, but we have to encourage them to move in this area.

Family-life courses: I've had many discussions on this with the Member who just took his seat. I'm aware of his concern in this area, and I'm very pleased to hear that his own district is now embarking on a family-life programme in the valley in that particular school.

Family-life courses are beginning to spring up across the province now that they know the

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Department of Education has given the direction to go ahead on the family-life programme. We have been assisting them with resource-guide curriculum programmes, and giving all the encouragement it can to the development of family-life courses within the school system.

You also were asking about the upgrading of teachers and asking if it's in legislation. It's not in legislation but most of the school boards of the province now are putting on in-service training programmes, and the teachers themselves are sponsoring these. We are having discussions with the faculties of education of the three universities to see if we can all work together in developing more in-service training programmes for the teachers of the province who are asking for them themselves. But I think the best place to start is locally.

You were asking about the area of educational television in the province. I'm sorry to see that we haven't moved faster than we have in this area. We do have a provincial media centre, and when you look at your estimates you can see that there's just a slight increase there this year. But we are hiring, within the next month, a superintendent of communications whose chief job would be to work on coordinating and helping recommend increased resources in the area of educational television programming. Many of the regional colleges and school boards are very anxious to get moving in this area, but we don't want them all moving off in different directions. We feel the superintendent of communications will help to coordinate and certainly, I know, will be the impetus for seeing that we can get more resources into the educational television area. I'm very pleased that the Minister of Transport and Communications (Hon. Mr. Strachan) is going to be having someone working on the hardware aspect.

AN HON. MEMBER: A good man too.

HON. MRS. DAILLY: Barrie Clark, right.

The other point I want to make to the Member — I know the Member for Chilliwack (Mr. Schroeder) is not in his seat now — but today the cabinet passed an order-in-council which sets up the Fraser Valley college, so we're ready to go.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the committee reports progress and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

Presenting reports.

Hon. Mr. Cocke presents the 100th Annual Report of the Mental Health Branch of British Columbia.

Hon. Mr. Hartley files answers to question 171.

DEPUTY CLERK: A report: Office of the Clerk, March 21, 1974.

"In the matter of the petition of A. Low-Beer, Sarah J. McAlpine, Anthony H. Tripp, Janet Sutherland, and Keith Parfitt, dated and presented to the House on the 20th of March 1974:

"While the standing orders of the House place no restriction on the right to petition the House on any subject that is not in violation of its rules or the practices of parliament, the said petition is irregular in that if the prayer of the said petitioners were to be implemented, such implementation would involve the disposition of Crown lands and the expenditure of public funds, each of which matters requires the prior consent of the Crown. See Speakers' Decisions, vol. I, page 112, and Beauchesne, fourth edition, page 261.

"All of which is respectfully submitted.

"I.M. Horne, Clerk of the House."

Hon. Mr. Barrett moves adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 5:49 p.m.