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CONTENTS

Routine proceedings

Ocean Falls Corporation Act (Bill No. 164).

Hon. Mr. Williams. Introduction and first reading — 2041

Ocean Falls Corporation Appropriation Act (Bill No. 165).

Hon. Mr. Williams. Introduction and first reading — 2041

An Act Respecting the Fluoridation of Water Supplies. (Bill No. 170).

Mr. McGeer. Introduction and first reading — 2041

Committee of supply: Department of Commercial Transport estimates.

Mr. Fraser — 2041

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2042

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2042

Mr. Richter — 2044

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2044

Mr. Williams — 2045

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2046

Mr. Chabot — 2046

Hon. Mr. Lorimer 2046

Hon. Mr. Hartley — 2046

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2047

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2048

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2048

Hon. Mr. Bennett — 2048

Mrs. Jordan — 2048

Mr. Phillips — 2049

Mr. Smith — 2050

Hon. Mr. Lorimer — 2051

Mr. Richter — 2052

Mr. D.A. Anderson — 2052

Department of Provincial Secretary estimates.

Mr. McClelland — 2053

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2054

Mr. Phillips — 2055

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2056

Mr. Wallace — 2057

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2057

Mr. Fraser — 2058

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2058

Mr. Chabot — 2058

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2059

Mr. Phillips — 2059

Mr. Smith — 2059

Hon. Mr. Hail — 2059

Mr. Radford — 2060

Mr. McClelland — 2060

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2060

Mr. Smith — 2060

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2061

Mr. Morrison — 2061

Department of Travel Industry estimates.

Hon. Mr. Hall — 2062

MONDAY, APRIL 2, 1973

The House met at 8:30 p.m.

Introduction of bills.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon. Minister of Lands, Forests and Water Resources.

HON. R.A. WILLIAMS (Minister of Lands, Forest and Water Resources): Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

OCEAN FALLS CORPORATION ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits herewith a bill intituled the Ocean Falls Corporation Act and recommends the same to the Legislative Assembly, Government House, March 30, 1973.

Bill No. 164 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

HON. MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to present a second message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor.

OCEAN FALLS CORPORATION
APPROPRIATION ACT

MR. SPEAKER: His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor transmits herewith a bill intituled the Ocean Falls Corporation Appropriation Act and recommends the same to the Legislative Assembly, Government House, March 30, 1973.

Bill No. 165 introduced, read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

AN ACT RESPECTING THE
FLUORIDATION OF WATER SUPPLIES

Mr. McGeer moves introduction and first reading of Bill No. 170 intituled An Act Respecting the Fluoridation of Water Supplies.

Motion approved.

Bill No. 170 read a first time and ordered to be placed on orders of the day for second reading at the next sitting of the House after today.

Orders of the day.

House in committee of supply; Mr. Dent in the chair.

ESTIMATES, DEPARTMENT OF
COMMERCIAL TRANSPORT

On vote 41: Minister's office, $9,5000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Cariboo.

MR. A.V. FRASER (Cariboo): A few short questions to the Minister, through you Mr. Chairman. First of all, the commercial transport department is pretty well the police department of the Department of Highways. I might say, in first comment, that things in this department have improved quite considerably over the last 12 or 18 months but there's still room for lots of improvement.

I'm particularly concerned about the logging truck industry in the province. If they can't operate economically, our whole timber industry is affected. In some cases, it seems to me that there are some excessive tickets issued to this section of the highway traffic. I specifically refer to cutting back on extended route permits that have always existed. I know that they were introduced at one time to look after this industry. When they finally have to get back to the ordinary regulations, it's going to have a very hard effect on the logging truck hauling.

In the interval, it seems that everybody is after these people, who are mostly individual operators owning their own units and trying to make a living. It's a tough living. They have to work from 4 o'clock in the morning till midnight to make things go. Maybe there's something wrong in the rates they're getting.

I can't understand why the scales are always issuing no end of tickets. If the scales of the commercial transport department don't get them, the RCMP get them for other infractions that are, in my opinion, quite minor.

The greatest amount of logging hauled over our highway system is done in the wintertime. In the interior of the province, in the wintertime, I'm sure that these people are not affecting the roads to any degree. They have six feet of frost as an average. Everybody is excited about the damage that they're doing to the roads but I can't see how they do that. I realize that the Department of Highways have some inadequate bridges that they're trying to protect, but my answer to that is, "Fix the bridges."

I would like to hear, through you Mr. Chairman, what the Department of Commercial Transport sees as the future for the logging truck industry, as it pertains to operating on public roads in the province. I'm not talking about private roads. There's no problem there.

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I'd also like to know, Mr. Chairman, if any discussions have taken place to invoke what we call "industry weighing." That would mean that the logging trucks would be weighed where they unload. They're all weighed there now for stumpage purposes through the forestry department. Why can't the regulations be enforced that way, so that these people will not have the double enforcement of going through the weigh scale system. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial Transport.

HON. J.G. LORIMER (Minister of Commercial Transport): I think that the problem you've raised exists in certain areas of the province. I'll be the first to admit that there have been certain problems in the Quesnel area. It's more a problem of personalities, I think, than of hauling logs.

One of the basic problems is that most of these loggers are contract loggers working for companies. They have a contract under which it's very difficult for them to make the payments on the truck and so on and so forth and carry legal limits. As a result, in order to make their margin of profit, they overload their trucks and are eventually picked up and charged, as you say.

The answer may possibly be that the contracts signed by the loggers with the major companies should be looked at. It seems to me that under the contracts being signed, it's almost impossible for a contract logger to make a good living if he has to make large payments for trucks and so on.

The trucks are allowed a certain weight depending on the number of axles in the vehicle. They have a fairly wide tolerance — it's 1,500 pounds over an axle in most logging trucks. I suggest that most loggers and truckers can tell pretty well, within a reasonable number of pounds, what their weights are.

I realize that it's a problem in certain areas. I don't think the solution is to increase the weight limits. I don't think that's the answer. Once you increase the weight limits, then you're up against the problems of strengthening bridges, highway construction and so on. Then it's also a question of safety. I don't anticipate any major change in the next short while regarding the limits.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Second Member for Victoria.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON (Victoria): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to make some inquiries regarding the purchase of equipment under the various votes of the Minister of Commercial Transport. The problem arises in light of the regrettable practice of purchasing without tenders, which took place in the case of B.C. Hydro buses. As there are two areas in these votes under Commercial Transport where motor vehicles are being purchased, I'd like to find out what procedures will be followed: whether tenders will be called; whether there will be handing out of contracts to government controlled corporations in other provinces without information in the hands of the public about these contracts; or whether we can expect normal, straightforward tendering.

I raise this issue, of course, because of the problem that exists with B.C. Hydro buses. We had a situation there where, despite requests…

HON. MR. LORIMER: If you had stayed in this afternoon, you would have heard the answer.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Yes, I heard.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Perhaps you'd like to comment on whether or not a bus is a commercial vehicle and whether we're discussing commercial transport. Would you like to comment on that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The matter which the Member is referring to was canvassed last thing this afternoon. However, he may allude to it as long as it's relevant to his comments about these estimates.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, whether or not a bus happens to be commercial transport or not is the question I'm posing to you, Mr. Chairman. I would say it is. As you know, quite often until the Minister has finished his full estimates, there are things which come up again and again. And I presume I can continue my comments on this area as a bus happens to be commercial transport.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, certainly, so long as they allude to these estimates, and so long as they don't repeat arguments or questions that were already canvassed this afternoon.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, the problem is, Mr. Chairman, that it is very difficult to get information on this. I have sent letters to the Minister requesting the specifications, for example, of the Hydro contract, and I have not received the information requested. I have requested that the correspondence be made public on the Hydro contract, the correspondence between the government and the various companies concerned and once again, it hasn't been made public. It hasn't been released.

Here we have an issue where we have many millions of dollars of public money handed out to a corporation in Manitoba which has been under very sharp criticism in Manitoba for the fact that the

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contracts are given without tenders there.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order. I would point out to the Hon. Member that this subject was canvassed in some depth late this afternoon…

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Oh, I know it was.

MR. CHAIRMAN: …under the estimates of the Department of Municipal Affairs, and I would ask him to relate his comments directly to the estimates that are before us, Commercial Transport.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, again my question goes back to the first question I posed. Do you regard buses as commercial transport, Mr. Chairman?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The point is, Mr. Member, that you must discuss the areas of administrative responsibility in this particular department as they are outlined in these estimates.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Yes, but is it commercial transport?

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would point out to the Hon. Member that the Chair is not called on to make that kind of judgment as to whether a bus is commercial transport. The point that I am called upon to determine is whether or not you are discussing matters relevant to these estimates.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, Mr. Chairman, I will then proceed on the grounds that in my assumption a bus is commercial transport, and I trust I will not run afoul of your ruling, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, providing they are under the administrative competence of this particular department.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: So, in any event we have here contracts that are dealing with vehicles…

HON. D. BARRETT (Premier): No, this department doesn't purchase buses.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, if you will look Mr. Premier — you are so well versed in what your Ministers are buying — you will find two items under these votes on this, dealing with the purchase of machinery and equipment — No. 029, motor vehicles and accessories. What I want to find out is whether this differs, or whether or not we are going to have the same underhand method of purchasing that took place in the case of B.C. Hydro buses.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would draw to the attention of the Hon. Member that the administrative responsibilities of this department do not include the purchase of buses. They do concern registration, the Weighscale Branch and so forth. I would ask him to keep his comments relevant to the actual responsibilities of this department.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Right, Mr. Chairman, and under this Engineering Branch and Weighscale Branch there are two items for the purchase of motor vehicles and accessories. They total, not an enormous amount, but a certain amount of money. What I want to know is whether or not in this area we are going to follow good practices, business practices, good government purchasing practices of sending things out to tender, or whether or not we are going to follow the procedure established in the case of B.C. Hydro where the public was required to pay substantially more money to satisfy political objectives of the government. I feel, in my view, it is a perfectly legitimate question to put under these two items.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I would say that the Hon. Member may discuss the specific items contained under here, but not speak of the thing in a general sense, applying to other departments or other purchases by the government.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, it's under the same Minister. I raised the question because we have been thoroughly dissatisfied by the failure to provide information on other purchases. I would like to know in future, in dealing with these two estimates for the year coming up, the fiscal year ending March 31, 1974, whether or not we are going to have tendering for the tax-paying members of the public of British Columbia who might be interested in tendering, offering to supply, or whether or not we are simply going to be in the situation of handouts to Manitoba-owned companies or other companies controlled by NDP governments elsewhere…

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I don't think that the comments are particularly relevant to the estimates. We are considering vote 41, I would point out, and the point that you were going to discuss this under, I believe, would come up more appropriately under vote 43.

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MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Well, fine. I thought that the Minister's estimates for the Department of Commercial Transport would cover the Engineering Branch and the Weighscale Branch, but I would be quite willing to repeat my arguments later in the debate if you wish. Would you prefer that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: If they are germane to these particular sections when they come up.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Fine. I'll repeat them then, Mr. Chairman, as soon as you get to vote 43.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Boundary-Similkameen.

MR. F.X. RICHTER (Boundary-Similkameen): Just a few remarks and questions in relation to this department, which I had the privilege of administering earlier. In many people's minds this is not a very important department, but I must say that is is an extremely important department because of the safety factor which is paramount in the administration of this department.

Now this applies to a number of very important pieces of legislation: the Railway Act, also in relation to and in conjunction to the Motor Vehicles Branch — motor carriers, et cetera…the safety of those trucks…the air brake courses in which the drivers must have certificates which qualify them for the use of air brakes; the Pipelines Act — and of course we have those installations, aerial tramways and ski lifts which come under the Railway Act.

Now, in relation to the regulations and the examinations under the Railway Act for the operation of ski lifts, aerial tramways such as that at Hell's Gate on the Fraser Canyon and the area of mining tramways and the railways themselves, I wonder if the Minister could tell us something about what has happened in the past year in relation to the examinations that have taken place on the various railway lines.

I know this applies mainly to the B.C. Railway — also various railways in relation to amusement parks, the railway over at Fort Steele, and so on — but what has been the experience in the past year in relation to these railways? I know the area between Fort Nelson and Fort St. John is difficult terrain to go through. I know that there is an equally difficult terrain going through from Fort St. James through to Deas Lake.

In the field of trucking, what is happening in relation to the growth of the trucking industry? Now, when I was in the Minister's particular area of jurisdiction, we did have a very rapid growth in the use of commercial vehicles. Of course this is an area which is getting a lot of attention today because of the fact that their loads can be set off at various way points, maybe some considerable distance from railways.

This is going to be a growing industry. Is the Minister getting pressure to increase the size of vehicles over the 8 foot 6 inches? Also is the Minister getting pressure from people wanting to move rather wide loads, such as boats and so on 14 feet wide, mobile homes and also modular homes? I think that is enough questions on that one.

Now to pipelines. Certainly I had an experience in relation to pipelines. We had rather an area of neglect over a number of years in getting a set plan of all the various pipelines, whether they were main pipelines or whether they were just feeder lines coming into main lines. The department was undertaking a rather extensive mapping programme. Has this been completed? Or are you making good progress along this line?

Now, I think probably my main concern tonight in relation to the proposed pipeline to supply natural gas to Vancouver Island for, let us say, a number of reasons is the environment, the saving of the ecology, the use of a B.C. resource, and to give a supply of domestic natural gas to the people here on Vancouver Island. This seems to be a particular part of British Columbia that is difficult to give some of these services to. Nonetheless, in my mind it is important that people be afforded the opportunity to have a source of supply.

The aerial tramways in relation to the ski resource were growing very, very rapidly. Has this growth continued, or has it decelerated? Because we are getting enough areas for skiing for the amount of skiing pressure that we have.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial Transport.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Regarding the driver training programme: the programme is continuing in the same way as it has been. It may be that it needs further beefing up; it may not be adequate for the number of jobs that seem to be coming available for truck drivers. We are looking at that and the programme that you are familiar with is still continuing.

Regarding what we have done on railways: in the annual report that was filed we have all the particulars of what went on. In the British Columbia Railway there was a considerable mileage of ties removed and replaced. There were a number of improvements last year in the weight of the rail. I haven't the particulars of the whole situation right with me but they are in the annual report.

The commercial vehicle growth: it is true that it is growing very rapidly and the growth of 1972 over 1971 was quite large. Of course, the pressure to move wide vehicles is very extreme at certain times of the year and to date we have resisted all pressures. There

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has been none allowed up until now.

The mapping programme on pipelines is continuing but is not completed. The question of the pipeline to Vancouver Island is still a question of discussion — I'm not able to make any announcement tonight regarding the plans for the pipeline for natural gas.

Now, the ski lift is another problem. It is a big problem in that there are many more going in every year, as you know, and that is continuing. Now, as far as the Second Member for Victoria (Mr. D.A. Anderson) is concerned, I'll just mention that I'm surprised at him raising the questions that were covered at great length this afternoon. For his own information, a bus is a commercial transport vehicle but a bus trolley coach is not.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for West Vancouver–Howe Sound.

MR. L.A. WILLIAMS (West Vancouver–Howe Sound): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There are a couple of serious questions to be asked about this particular vote. A year ago we had no Minister and we still don't have one, I guess. We had no secretary and we still don't have one, but we had a Ministerial executive assistant at the salary of $12,960 a year. Now, this year we have no executive assistant but, strangely enough, for all these non-people the office expense has risen from $350 to $2,500 and the travelling expense for these non-people has risen from $3,500 to $7,000. Mr. Chairman, I think it is demanding of an answer from the Minister when we have no Minister receiving a salary, no secretary, no executive assistant, yet suddenly the office expense has gone up almost tenfold and the travelling expense for these people has doubled.

I know the answer will come back, "Oh well, these are all worked out." But you look at the Minister of Municipal Affairs and he has an office expense and a travelling expense for his staff. I just think it is wrong that we have votes placed before this committee with no people in the Minister's office at all and yet somehow or other we are going to spend $7,000 moving them around the province or around this country.

This is the kind of budgeting and the kind of financial estimating that we should not be having in this province at this particular time. It is a lot of money — not very much in a $2 million budget, but it is still a lot of net dollars for the expenditure, without any real indication of the purpose of the expenditure in these estimates. Maybe the Minister can answer the question as to why we are spending $7,000 for travelling expense for non-people.

In preparing myself for the debate on this department I read back over the speeches of the Hon. Member for Surrey (Hon. Mr. Hall) who spoke so eloquently on the Department of Commercial Transport. Having carefully reviewed them I think I can distill them into a few pointed questions like, What are you doing about the safety of commercial vehicles in this province? You can talk about all these flexible load limits for axles and so on, but can you assure us that your department is really on top of the safety problem?

Through my constituency increasing numbers of these logging trucks are moving on the rather dangerous highway between the Pemberton Valley and Squamish. Anyone who has driven over that highway will know it to be a mountain road with sharp bends, a very narrow road surface and in some places no shoulder at all. I must commend the drivers of these vehicles for the skill they display in moving along that highway. Nonetheless, it is dangerous and the number of vehicles using this are increasing year by year. It's creating a serious safety hazard because there are also vast increases in the number of private passenger vehicles moving along these roads.

I think we are entitled to know the extent to which the Department of Commercial Transport is maintaining surveillance on highways of this kind. How often are we checking the vehicles that move along these highways? Fortunately there have not been many fatal accidents, but to what extent do you maintain an examination of the condition of the vehicles and the certification of the drivers?

We have throughout the province — turning to another matter under this department — a number of weighscales. I am sure they are very actively engaged but I must say that in my experience almost every time I go past one there is a sign saying, "Closed." If you look at the one on the south side of the Deas Island Tunnel, it seems to be perpetually closed. You follow the sign and it says, "Move forward to next axle. Stop. Back up. Bring papers. Go to jail. Move to Park Avenue… (Laughter). It's like a Monopoly game. I wonder if it is run from the Minister's office in Victoria or if there really is anybody who makes that weighstation function. Maybe it is part of the non-people we have in the Minister's office.

Maybe this seems humorous, but the fact of the matter is that without these weighscales and without competent, constant supervision, what happens to all the vehicles that move past when they are closed? Where do you catch them? I have heard many speeches by the Member for Surrey (Hon. Mr. Hall) when he was in Opposition, before he was gagged, speaking about the opportunities there are to bypass these weighscales by taking devious routes through the municipalities in the lower mainland. I think we are entitled to know what the Minister is doing to rectify these serious problems that the Member for Surrey earlier laid before the previous Minister. Perhaps some of the non-people in this office can answer these questions.

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MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial Transport.

HON. MR. LORIMER: The answer to the first question as to why these figures are here, is a difficult one to answer. Dealing with the second question…(Laughter). In the Horseshoe Bay area and Pemberton area, we do have portable weighscales set up periodically and the area is patrolled reasonably well. There is no permanent scale there, that is true, but there are portable scales out there.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. LORIMER: It varies but they are probably averaging about once every two weeks. That's not necessarily every two weeks — it may be twice one week and then three weeks, and so on. It is scattered.

The other question about most of the scale offices being closed most of the time: I don't think it is that accurate, but I know they are closed quite frequently. It is a question of the number of people to man them that causes them to be closed. They are opened at staggered hours in order that people will not know ahead of time when a station is closed and when it is open. The problem in that is that there is not enough staff at the present moment to have these stations open 24 hours a day.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Columbia River.

MR. J.R. CHABOT (Columbia River): Just a brief question, Mr. Chairman, relative to the safety of the British Columbia Railway. I am rather surprised, of course, that the Member for Fort George (Mr. Nunweiler) isn't raising this question, but in view of the fact that he's not prepared to do so, I will do so on his behalf, because he has made some serious allegations and charges about the efficiency and safety of the B.C. Railway.

I'm wondering whether you consider, Mr. Minister, through you Mr. Chairman, that the trackage is inferior, the rail is too light, the bridge structures need examination and replacement — whether you are prepared, Mr. Minister, to go ahead with the investigations he has suggested, whether an enquiry will take place relative to the safety conditions of B.C. Railway. Those were serious allegations. I'm wondering whether this is a fact and, if it is a fact, when an investigation will take place.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial Transport.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Well, the railway is being inspected regularly. There's, no railway that's completely safe. I'd like to see a lot of improvements on the railway, and they're coming about piece by piece — rail by rail, tie by tie. There has to be improvements; some of the bridges have to be replaced. It's not as good as it's going to be, but it will be improved continually.

MR. CHABOT: A supplementary question, Mr. Chairman. The Minister has stated that some bridges on the B.C. Railway are unsafe. I don't think you should be allowing train crews to travel over those bridges if they're unsafe. I want to know which bridges are unsafe and when those bridges will be replaced. Also, if the track is too light to carry the tonnage which is presently being carried on the B.C. Railway, when are you going to improve the trackage — the size of the trackage — or cut down the size of the trains?

MR. LORIMER: I did not say that the bridges were unsafe. I said that the…

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. BARRETT: You don't want the answers eh?

HON. MR. LORIMER: I understand there was a bridge that caved in there a year or so ago — Blueberry Creek or something. But in any event there are improvements that have to be made and will be made on the whole run. The Blueberry bridge, I understand, has to be replaced due to the fact that it caved in last year. But as far as the rest of the railway…it's safe for the loads that are running, and it's being improved.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Public Works.

HON. W.L. HARTLEY (Minister of Public Works): Mr. Speaker, that ex-Minister of Labour really has a very empty ring in this voice tonight. Very empty. A good bit of the B.C. Railways runs up through the Yale-Lillooet riding.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. HARTLEY: Yes, those rotten ties. You bet. That's right. Mr. Speaker, the ex-Premier instructed the Member for Cariboo (Mr. Fraser) to get up and say we were lying. And then that very night, a train runs off and goes through a home and almost kills a baby in bed. This is what was going on with those fellows…last year everything was hunky-dory. They couldn't get their train rolling in 20 years

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— we've had less than six months and here they're trying to hold us responsible, and we are responsible.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. HARTLEY: That's right. No I thought, Mr. Chairman, that they really stooped to a low — they wait until one who has walked out and then they said that was a lie about the track. The engineer who took me over that railroad died a very short time after of a heart attack at age 37. So I agree we have a great responsibility to see that we have a first class road bed. But these gentlemen and one lady argue with a very hollow voice on these matters when they completely ignored the conditions for 20 years and then expect us to repair it overnight.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. HARTLEY: We know we're good. We know we have a first class Minister of Commercial Transport, but give us a little more time.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Second Member for Victoria.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Not a point of order — come on!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the Hon. Member for Victoria be seated, please.

MRS. P.J. JORDAN (North Okanagan): The Hon. Member for Yale-Lillooet (Hon. Mr. Hartley) accused the former Premier of instructing Members of this House to lie, and I would ask him, on his behalf, to withdraw that statement. I'm surprised that the Chairman let it rest.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not a point of order.

MR. CHABOT: It's a point of order and you better believe it is.

MRS. JORDAN: Mr. Chairman, if we go through Hansard, we'll find numerous occasions where you have asked for such statements to be withdrawn. I would ask you to ask that Member to withdraw that statement.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I would rule that it's not a point of order. I recognize the Hon. Second Member for Victoria.

MR. CHABOT: That Minister doesn't know what the truth is anyway.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh!

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, order. I'll ask the Hon. Second Member for Victoria to proceed, and I would ask the Hon. Members on both sides of the House to please not become personal in their comments.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: The point that I want to raise under the Department of Commercial Transport is the question of conversion to propane in an attempt to cut down on air pollution, particularly in the greater Vancouver area. It's something that follows up the budget of course, where there were certain tax concessions given.

Interjections by some Hon. Members .(Laughter).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I ruled that there was no point of order, I asked the Hon. Second Member for Victoria to proceed.

AN HON. MEMBER: Wild Bill from over the hill.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Mr. Chairman, back in February — early February of this year, a Mr. Price, who is chairman of the taxation sub-committee of the Propane Gas Association of Canada, sent us all a letter. There is one sentence in it which I think is relevant here. It was: "that we know that fleets of taxis, buses, in-town delivery trucks and government vehicles account for more than 25 per cent of the traffic in urban areas, and correspondingly, are responsible for that amount of vehicle-caused air pollution."

The questions I would like to put to the Minister, in view of the fact that there is a substantial amount of air pollution caused by commercial vehicles and government vehicles…

I had a conversation with Dueck in Vancouver, and they told me about the propane fleet that they have. They told me that the pollution is much less than gasoline and much better than diesel — the efficiency of the engines is no power loss if proper carburetion is used. The mileage, they said, would be about the same per gallon as gasoline and better than diesel. Engine life would be about the same as diesel and three times as long as with gas. Safety, they say, is the same — it's no more explosive than gas. Indeed, in a tank it is safer than gas because of a closed system. They pointed out that capital costs are actually less.

This is borne out by material I received from a company, Mr. Chairman, which was looking forward to tendering for B.C. Hydro buses, but was unfortunately barred from doing so by the preference for no tenders from our Manitoba NDP friends. The Wells Wayne Corporation can deliver a bus in B.C. at $43,943 maximum cost in B.C. — that's the diesel one — yet a propane one is $39,943 — a $4,000

[ Page 2048 ]

difference which shows that propane definitely has a substantial advantage in terms of capital costs. Unfortunately neither figure had much relevance to B.C. Hydro, because they weren't allowed to tender in any event. But capital cost is down over the other methods.

Dueck went on to tell me that the General Telephone Company converted all its vehicles — 2,000 to 3,000 — to propane. There are 1,600 buses in Chicago which are propane powered. They talked about the State of Washington which is beginning to convert to propane.

So my question to the Minister, as a bus is a commercial vehicle and presumably buses are involved in this case, is what steps other than the tax concession are being made to try and make sure that we get more use of propane in commercial vehicles in British Columbia?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Commercial Transport.

HON. MR. LORIMER: There's no authority on the Minister of Commercial Transport to order anyone to use propane fuel in commercial vehicles at the present time under the Act. The reduction of taxation which is proceeding in being discussed in the House under the bill before us has made it somewhat interesting to some companies to go into the propane field. But as a Minister, I have no power to order anyone to use propane.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Second Member for Victoria.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Under the general heading of Commercial Transport, I wonder if any studies are being done. Is there any interest being shown by his department? I'm sure that that would be preliminary to granting you, Mr. Minister, through you Mr. Chairman, powers under this House for any orders that might be made. But are studies being done on this so that air pollution, particularly in large urban centres, can be cut down? Certainly we don't expect you to indicate that you're ordering people to do this thing, although, of course, you could perhaps influence B.C. Hydro — had you not rushed into your earlier contract without tender.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Well, up to this time apparently, there are no studies going on, but I will certainly take it under advisement. It might be a reasonable idea.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Leader of the Opposition.

HON. W.A.C. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to say how pleased I was to get a memo.

It isn't perhaps usual to comment on memos in the House, but this one will do no harm, so I think I should quote it. It's from the Minister of Public Works (Hon. Mr. Hartley) to Mr. W.A.C. B.: "You can't say we didn't have good communications, can you?" Signed.

I want to thank the Minister of Public Works or the Speaker or whoever's responsible for putting the intercom in my office, because I can listen to these debates. I listen to them all the time.

I want to say that I was amazed at my good friend from Yale-Lillooet (Hon. Mr. Hartley). I asked him to stay in the House because I would bring it up.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. BENNETT: Oh, yes. But you're out sometimes too. And that's why you put in the intercom. If you didn't expect the Leader of the Opposition to be out sometimes doing his work, why did you put the intercom in my office? It was there without my request. You did it and I thank you for it. I'm not finding fault there.

But, I do say that in my whole 30-some years in public life in this province at no time did I ever suggest that anybody tell a lie. I never told a single one of my colleagues, anybody in the Opposition, anyone in my constituency, anyone in the province anywhere to do so. I am amazed that my good friend from Yale-Lillooet would say that on the floor of the House. I am sure he must have been just kidding along or something.

But if he meant it, then he should either withdraw it — he should withdraw it anyway — or say it out in the hall. And I'll tell you this: I'll never withdraw in stopping an action, because I'll sue him right away.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I am sure the Hon. Minister of Public Works will be pleased to hear that he was mistaken. I recognize the Hon. Member for North Okanagan.

MRS. JORDAN: Mr. Chairman, before I discuss this matter with the Minister, I'd like to clarify a point: do federal government vehicles register in any way with your Department of Commercial Transport when they're operating in British Columbia?

HON. MR. LORIMER: We'll get it for you.

MRS. JORDAN: Perhaps I might tell him why I wish to ask. I really want him to do a little blackmailing.

We have a very tragic situation, which I am sure

[ Page 2049 ]

has been duplicated in British Columbia, but I happen to be involved in one where a young university student was struck by a federal vehicle in downtown Vancouver. He suffered concussion, went to the hospital, was hospitalized and released after a few days. He went back to his studies, had a relapse, was re-hospitalized and is now home recuperating after quite a serious area of concern and may well have residual health problems.

In British Columbia, as the Minister is aware, we have no-fault insurance and in such an incident the young man would have been compensated immediately. This is not the case with the federal government. On behalf of his family I have applied myself and have also directed them to apply to our Attorney General (Hon. Mr. Macdonald) for some assistance. The Attorney General's department has stated that the only recourse that he is aware of is that they must use litigation.

Now these people are orchardists and are not financially well off. The thought of going to court and embarking on litigation is distressing to them, both financially and emotionally.

What I really would like to ask the Minister is, if I give him the details of this case and if there is a registration of federal vehicles in British Columbia, would he please (1) use that registration in order to secure a legitimate and well advised settlement as by our own B.C. Insurance board for this boy without litigation and (2) could he use it as a vehicle to insist that the federal government carry the same no-fault insurance or something comparable so that when people in British Columbia are involved with either a car accident or a personal injury with any federal vehicle, that they don't have to use the recourse of litigation and all its costs and problems?

HON. MR. LORIMER: As your solicitor I would recommend suit; but as the Minister, I would say that I am quite sure that the federal government doesn't go through our department when they bring their vehicles into this province.

I will be very happy to look into the case if you give me the details so that we can proceed.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for South Peace River.

MR. D.M. PHILLIPS (South Peace River): Mr. Chairman, I have a couple of questions for the Minister of Commercial Transport.

First of all, I'd like to say that the weighscales in our area are very seldom closed. As a matter of fact, I think they work overtime. I don't know whether it's to protect the highways or to make sure they get those dollar bills at the border. We have a very strategic border crossing at Tupper and with the…

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. PHILLIPS: Coming in from Alberta — it's on the Alberta-B.C. border.

With the amount of growth that is taking place in the Yukon and up in the Mackenzie area and the oil drilling that was taking place before this government sort of put a halt to it, we have run into some problems there at the border, Mr. Minister.

It seems to me that these truckers can haul heavy loads all the way from Edmonton and Calgary. When they get to the Alberta-B.C. border, bingo! They come to a grinding halt. I've had phone calls in the middle of the night to see if I could get some of the stuff moving.

One of the problems, of course, is that British Columbia controls about 83 miles of the Alaska Highway. From then on they have to go to Whitehorse to get extra-wide passes and so forth. I'd like to ask the Minister if he would get together with the Department of Highways and see if we can't get together with the Alberta commercial transport people so that these loads can move from Edmonton right through to Whitehorse without running into these snags.

There's going to be a great deal more truck transport over this route, Mr. Minister, as the Yukon develops. If the Mackenzie pipeline goes ahead, we're going to have some real problems.

I realize that there is one bridge…and you are going to have to get together with the Minister of Highways and make sure that that bridge is replaced. Because if I get phone calls in the middle of the night I'm going to get somebody's phone number and I'll just be transferring the messages on.

Another thing I'd like to bring to the Minister's attention, Mr. Chairman — and this I've argued in this House before — why can't we do away with "H" plates for farm trucks? Why is it necessary for a farmer who wants to haul his own grain to be licensed with an "H" plate, particularly on a 3-ton truck? I don't think it's necessary to have this rigamarole. I've claimed for some years that I didn't think it was necessary and I'd like to see it completely done away with.

The trucks and equipment are getting bigger — a 3-ton truck now is about equivalent to what a 1-ton used to be, it seems to me, when you are hauling merchandise. The roads are improved, the tires are improved — everything in the truck's improved. I'd like to see this particular form of taxation done away with completely.

Now my friend from the Cariboo (Mr. Fraser) mentioned logging trucks. Sometimes we think that there are men on the weighscales who harass these logging truck operators — and in my area there are certainly more individual truckers than company-owned trucks. I think maybe next year we should

[ Page 2050 ]

start early early in the fall — when the logging season starts, and it's a relatively short season. Last year it was shorter because of the wet fall. These fellows have to go like the merry winds in the winter in order to keep the payments up on these big trucks. I think next fall we should instigate some sort of alarm system whereby the first time that the weighscale man finds one of these truckers overloaded he sends out a signal maybe to the Deputy Minister or to the MLA so that when he gets caught and he comes crying on our shoulders we'll be able to say, "Well, you were warned so many times." Maybe even the Deputy Minister could send him a warning.

These fellows are certainly going to haul as many logs as they can. They're going to make as much money as they can. They find it hard to understand why they have to be penalized, particularly as in many cases they are not going over a bridge and the road is frozen so they could carry ten times as much without really hurting the road surface at all.

I'd like the Minister to advise me whether he is getting good cooperation with the federal officials in the Yukon on loads moving up the Alaska Highway.

Another thing I'd like to ask the Minister about, Mr. Chairman, is if he would bring in some sort of rules and regulations with regard to moving mobile homes. In Alberta they will not allow mobile homes to be moved unless the pilot cars comply with certain regulations, such as the size of the light and two-way radios et cetera. Mobile homes, I think we'll all have to agree, are here to stay. As long as mobile homes are here to stay, they're going to be moved from place to place. That is the very idea of a mobile home.

Mr. Minister, I think we should have certain safety regulations — specifically, any car acting as a pilot car should have a two-way radio in it. It may happen, when there's a bend in the road and the pilot car is ahead of the mobile home, that there's an accident on the road or a heavy flow of traffic coming. Maybe this comes under the Motor Vehicle Branch, but I think it should really come under your department, Mr. Minister. Maybe you would advise me if you will take some action in that regard.

The other thing I'd like to ask you, Mr. Minister is this: are you going to be in charge of the new British Columbia government cable television setup? Is that going to come under your department or some other department? Would you answer that?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Hon. Member's last comment is not in order. I recognize the Hon. Member for North Peace River.

MR. D.E. SMITH (North Peace River): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have just a few questions for the Hon. Minister concerning his duties with regard to commercial transport.

The first one I think I should address to the Hon. Minister is what are you doing about the supply of natural gas to Vancouver Island? When can we anticipate that that event will take place? What is taking place with regard to the idea of a natural gas pipeline to service Vancouver Island? It's one of the important parts of the province. The question has been asked a number of times and, while I wasn't in the House a few minutes ago, I haven't heard an answer to it yet.

HON. MR. LORIMER: I'll answer it again.

MR. SMITH: I think that is one question to which all the residents of British Columbia would like an answer. Secondly, I would like to concur with the remarks of the Hon. Member for South Peace River (Mr. Phillips) concerning the problems of inter-provincial highway regulations.

As you know, Mr. Minister, we live very close to the Province of Alberta. A large segment of the trucking volume that comes through our area originates in Alberta, particularly with respect to the delivery of mobile homes and, in more recent months, the delivery of pipe for a pipeline construction project. There is a problem with respect to the regulations in Alberta and the regulations in British Columbia.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I believe the Hon. Member for South Peace River just posed that question and the Minister…

MR. SMITH: No, not in the same light. He talked about mobile homes. I'm going on to something else here.

MR. CHAIRMAN: If you're going to add something to it, go ahead.

MR. SMITH: The problem is that in some areas there is more latitude in our regulations than in Alberta's; in some other areas, the reverse is true. We run into the situation where trucks are stopped at the border for indefinite periods of time.

What I'd like to suggest to the Minister is this: surely to goodness there must be some way of communicating with the Province of Alberta and trying to get regulations a little closer to the same standard. I'm not suggesting that we relax our regulations because I realize that the protection of highways is of prime importance. But at least we should have some means of communication between the two provinces so that if a load leaves Edmonton and its destination happens to be the Territories, it will have reasonable assurance that it will get through the Province of British Columbia without any problem.

[ Page 2051 ]

The other thing is that we have permitted trucks working beyond our provincial boundaries to go through the Province of British Columbia on a permit basis. They come in from Alberta, through northern British Columbia and on up into the Territories. But Alberta is not really cooperating in a reciprocal manner. This, of course, is making a lot of the truckers from our part of the country very unhappy.

They see trucks with Alberta licence plates on a permit system going through northern British Columbia to a job in the Territories, but if some of our truckers have to go back through Alberta, up over the Mackenzie highway and back up into the Territories again, there's no reciprocal arrangement sometimes. They feel that this is not really in the best interests of interprovincial relationships.

There's one other problem that I would like to bring to the attention of the Hon. Minister. This concerns the operation of the weighscales in Fort Nelson. We have a scale there which is not operated on a 12-months-a-year basis. There is intermittent operation of the scales. It is serviced by personnel from Fort St. John or Dawson Creek, who intermittently go up and open the scale for a period of a week or 10 days, sometimes less than that.

I'd like to draw it to the Minister's attention that in the Fort Nelson area there is less than 20 miles of provincial highway that is used by the trucking firms operating out of Fort Nelson up into the unsurveyed areas of northern British Columbia and beyond there into the Territories, particularly during the winter months. I think the truckers have a legitimate beef.

For instance, they come in from a rig move from maybe 200 miles up into the Territories. The weather has been bad and they've picked up a lot of mud on their outfits. The Cats that they're hauling are all mudded up. They're overweight — there's no question about that — with the ice and all the rest. When they get within four miles of Fort Nelson, the Department of Commercial Transport is sitting there waiting for them, nails them all and levies a pretty substantial fine against them.

When they travel only a very few miles of provincial highway, it seems that we should exercise a little bit of discretion in those particular situations It's very easy for an overzealous inspector to go out there. For instance, he may have a report that Commonwealth is moving a rig from the Territories to Nelson. That inspector will know that between 20 and 40 loaded trucks will be coming out. As I said, at certain times of the year they pick up a lot of mud and ice. They get within four miles of Fort Nelson and bang! They get nailed. All of them are fined, some with substantial fines.

They feel that it's a little unfair, to say the least. I believe it is too, and we should exercise a little bit of latitude there. If it's the policy of the department to operate a weighscale in Fort Nelson, it should be done on a regular basis all the time. Then the people will become accustomed to knowing that if they come in overweight, they're subject to a fine, even when it's in the middle of winter and all the roads are frozen.

Other than that, exercise a little latitude — have your inspectors exercise a little latitude when they're dealing with some of these people. Really, at that time of year, they do not hurt the roads. I agree that there's a problem in break-up — when the roads are beginning to break up and it's soft. But in the middle of winter there's absolutely no problem. The frost is down to a depth of 10 or 12 feet. There's no way that they will hurt any of our highways there.

The only problem we may have is with a bridge or two that they have to cross. But in the main, they use ice bridges in the winter. So even there, there's no problem as to a bridge structure that could be hurt by an overload.

I would just bring this to the Minister's attention. I know that the Deputy Minister is very aware of the problem. He's tried to cooperate with the people up there. But we do have a problem with people sometimes being a little overzealous in their application of the rules — drawing these fellows right strictly to the letter of the law and causing them, I think, undue hardship, As a result, it costs them a lot of money in excess fines.

We're not really in the business of maintaining a lot of highway in the Fort Nelson area. With the fines that we levy, I think we come out on the credit side of the ledger to a far greater extent than any money we put back into that area in road maintenance at this time.

[Ms. Young in the chair]

If he would, I'd like the Minister's comments on: the Vancouver Island natural gas problem; the cooperation — or lack of it — between ourselves and the Province of Alberta; and this matter of the weighscales in Fort Nelson. Thank you, Madam Chairman.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Minister.

HON. MR. LORIMER: Thank you, Madam Chairman. The pipeline to Vancouver Island is under active discussion by the Government. I'm not able to make an announcement on it tonight.

MR. SMITH: Can you give any indication where you're at?

HON. MR. LORIMER: It's a matter of Government policy. There will be an answer in due course but not at the present time.

The weighscale at Fort Nelson has been in operation since last fall on a regular basis. It's not

[ Page 2052 ]

full-time, there's one man there, but on a regular basis since last fall. I might just point out that the weighmasters are carrying out the instructions of the department through the regulations. I am sure they are generally using discretion.

In addition to the weights, they are also allowed an additional tolerance. So before there are ever any tickets given, the overload is quite substantial. These aren't given out lightly. The complaints that we have received, when we followed them through, we found they were in most cases quite exaggerated, on the individuals that we did check up on at their request.

Now I think the other question was cooperation with Alberta, which was asked by the Hon. Member for South Peace River (Mr. Phillips). We are having discussions on certain areas of cooperation regarding a number of matters within this jurisdiction. We expect that there will be more cooperation in the future as a result of our conversations.

In most cases our weight limits are higher than the Alberta weight limits. It just appears that our weigh scale people are a little more active than the Alberta weighscale people because they can get through Alberta but we pick them up in B.C.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

HON. MR. LORIMER: That's true. In other areas, our widths may be narrower than Alberta's. I think in general we allow heavier weights.

For the Hon. Member for South Peace River, I think we will try to do something for him on the "H" plate for farmers who are hauling their own produce. We'll have to look into that. We will certainly study that aspect; I think it's a good suggestion.

MR. PHILLIPS: What about the mobile homes safety?

HON. MR. LORIMER: We allow them up to 12 feet. Oh, the safety part? That is a question of the people who are driving the warning cars or the wide-load cars who have their two-way radios — that might be fine, but basically the problem is that in that event what they're preventing is people from moving their own vehicles with their own wide-load car in front, a function that they can probably do quite safely. But if there are examples of where something has occurred, I'd be pleased to hear about it.

MR. RICHTER: Madam Chairman, if I might direct a question to the Minister.

During my tenure of office I found that there were a number of loose ends in the Department of Commercial Transport, particularly in relation to motor vehicles. Is the Minister giving any consideration to the amalgamation of the Motor-Vehicle Branch, the various carrier plates under the Motor Carriers Act, and consolidating it into one full-fledged department? I am sure that the department could gain great status this way. I am sure there would be a closer coordination between all these branches, bringing it into a meaningful department, in that you would deal with all matters in relation to licensing, car inspections and so on. I think this has been something that has just been left hanging. I think this is the time now to move into that area.

HON. MR. LORIMER: This matter is under serious consideration at the present time.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for West Vancouver–Howe Sound.

MR. WILLIAMS: Madam Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would indicate whether his department investigates any of the derailment accidents on the British Columbia Railway.

HON. MR. LORIMER: I'm advised we don't to go every one. We go to any where there are any injuries or serious matters involved. We don't go to every one.

MS. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 41 pass?

Vote 41 approved.

Vote 42: general administration, $111,706 — approved.

On vote 43: engineering branch, $200,928.

MS. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Second Member for Victoria.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: This is one of these votes which has motor vehicles and accessories. I'd like to know what steps are being taken to make sure that any purchases of motor vehicles or accessories will be done by tender; what steps are being taken to make sure that these are not given out under any excuse whatsoever, be it speed or anything else, to companies which may or may not have special interests to the government; what attempts will be made to make sure that when a contract does take place or a sale does take place, Members of the Legislature who request information on the sale from the Minister receive such information. In other words, what guarantees can we get or what statements of intention can we get from the Minister regarding contracts for vehicles to assure us, that they are receiving fair value for money, that they are receiving vehicles which have purchased fairly and honestly; where all British Columbians who pay taxes who might want to supply are given the opportunity to supply; where a deci-

[ Page 2053 ]

sions regarding what purchases will be made will be made on the basis of price and service, and not on some other considerations that might strike Ministers as being desirable at one time or another?

HON. MR. LORIMER: All vehicle purchases under this department are brought through the Purchasing Commission as provided by the Purchasing Commission Act.

Vote 43 approved.

On vote 44: weigh scale branch, $1,187,682.

MR. D.A. ANDERSON: Madam Chairman, I would like to know whether this will be entirely under the Purchasing Commission; whether there is any opportunity here for Ministerial latitude which might lead the Purchasing Commission to be circumvented and lead to contracts which would be done without tender and without any guarantee that they are in the best interests of the public.

,HON. MR. LORIMER: All purchases under this department are bought through the Purchasing Commission as provided by the Purchasing Commission Act.

Vote 44 approved.

ESTIMATES, DEPARTMENT OF
THE PROVINCIAL SECRETARY

On vote 181: Department of the Provincial Secretary Minister's office, $48,430.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for Langley.

MR. R.H. McCLELLAND (Langley): Thank you, Madam Chairman, I have only a few brief questions.

First of all, I'd like to put in a plug for "Douglas Day." I would hope that since the Provincial Secretary (Hon. Mr. Hall) and the cabinet saw fit to go to the Langley area on November 19 last year, their first time as the new cabinet, I would hope that they would go there forever more, because it's an historic occasions.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

HON. MR. BARRETT: "Forever more," we heard it!

MR. McCLELLAND: The citizens of my community, Madam Chairman, are seriously concerned about that. They feel that it's an historic occasion and they'd like to make sure that the Government recognizes it. So perhaps a commitment from the

Minister would be in order at this time.

One of the reasons we don't have too many questions for the Provincial Secretary — and maybe it's just an interesting coincidence — but three bills were brought down today dealing with pensions and that rather stifles the most important areas of discussion in the Minister's department. I suppose that is just an interesting coincidence.

However, they are civil service pensions, teachers' pensions and school district and regional college pensions. We are not allowed to discuss those this evening, and they are very important areas of concern in the Minister's department.

I would ask though, Madam Chairman, through you to the Minister, when we might plan to see the legislation that the Minister has promised with regard to collective bargaining by civil servants? I know that many people are desperately anxious to see that legislation and find out just what the Minister has in mind for this area of concern.

I wonder too, does the Minister still plan to go ahead with the right to strike for civil servants, even though it seems from all surveys that the public doesn't agree with the right to strike for civil servants. Are we going to go ahead with that proposal just the same?

I'd like, Madam Chairman, to ask the Minister a couple of questions about some of the recent statements that he's made in the Press, one of them most recently in Harrison Hot Springs with regard to the electronic media, in which the Minister spoke to the British Columbia Association of Broadcasters and complained rather bitterly that the broadcasters weren't carrying out their function with regard to the dissemination of news not only from the Legislature but from the announcements that the provincial government makes from time to time through the Provincial Secretary's department, I suppose.

The Minister said that sometimes the government's efforts to inform are thwarted by the media. For instance, he said some government announcements and news releases are given wide coverage but others are virtually ignored.

I wonder if the Minister might comment on whether he thinks the electronic media in any way need to be upgraded from his point of view, or whether he needs to develop a course of some kind to teach the electronic media what's news and what isn't.

He also says that the government has a responsibility to inform the public and there should be full disclosure of information. Well, I'm sure the media agrees with that, but perhaps some clarification on that point might be in order.

If I can get a little parochial for a moment, not long ago the Minister also said that he intends to fight the Treasury Board for money for immediate construction of tertiary treatment sewage plants in the

[ Page 2054 ]

lower mainland, and I wonder how the fight is coming — whether or not you are getting anywhere with that problem. He also said that he believes that the province should foot the entire bill and I wonder how he is making out with that fight as well.

Madam Chairman, a recent letter from the Minister to a Victoria resident who is in the printing business, having to do with bids for extra jobs for the Queen's Printer, came to light recently and I'd like to quote from that letter. The Minister says to the writer:

"All material that has to be printed is given to the Queen's Printer to print, and what he is unable to produce in the Queen's Printer shop will be put out to bid. Companies that are able to produce the material that we require will be invited to bid."

I wonder, Madam Chairman, if the Minister could explain to us whether that kind of selective tendering is going on all the time or whether he would consider putting these kinds of bids out to open tender.

The Minister has also said in his letter that the criteria of union shop and B.C. companies will always be operative, and that's highly commendable. But I think that the selective bid practice is certainly a retrograde step in the Province of British Columbia and we should ensure that all of these contracts go to open bids rather than selective bids.

Madam Chairman, I would also like to ask a brief question about two other items that come under this Minister's jurisdiction, the alcoholism foundation and the narcotics foundation. Grants to those two organizations amount to a total $625,000, up from $600,000 last year. Will the Minister be consulted if these two foundations are closed down as we've had some indication they might be? Will it be with consultation from your department since you administer the funds, or will you have an opportunity to review the operations of those foundations before they are closed down, if they are in fact to be closed down? Perhaps you would comment on whether or not it's within your jurisdiction to keep these foundations operating.

Madam Chairman, the Provincial Secretary also has to do with the Provincial Elections Act, and I'm wondering whether before the next election there will be changes in the enumeration procedures. It seems to me that there were too many eligible people left off the voters' list in the last election. It was quite regrettable. Will the department be revising the polling divisions within those districts? Once again, some ludicrous situations popped up during the last election, particularly with regard to polling divisions. Many people, I'm afraid, just forgot about voting rather than fighting all of the red tape. Once again, are there going to be changes in the elections Act with regard to enumeration procedures and to the revision of polling divisions and polling districts before the next election?

I have some more questions, Madam Chairman, but I'd like to allow someone else to ask some questions beforehand.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Provincial Secretary.

HON. E. HALL (Provincial Secretary): Dealing with the questions of the Member for Langley (Mr. McClelland) in the order they were presented to us.

First of all, we intend to keep Douglas Day going. We have a very pleasant day there and I should tell you we anticipate a cabinet meeting in many places in the province over the next many years. We'll be in Williams Lake for their stampede, for instance. Those things are near and dear to the kind of Government that I have the pleasure of serving as Provincial Secretary.

Legislation. Mr. Member, I hope to be in a position to stand in my place very shortly to bring and introduce a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. I don't think we'll have to wait 20 years or even 20 days for that to happen. It'll be very shortly and I frankly am not going to say much more on that subject because the legislation is coming.

You mentioned and inquired about my speech at Harrison Hot Springs. I didn't complain bitterly. Those are your words; I never complain. I've been in this business long enough to know that's not the way one operates.

I did talk about responsibility. I talked about responsibility of government to inform and the responsibility of the media to inform their readership. Judging by the applause that I got when I sat down, I think the message was well received and accurately construed. My speech, I think, stands on its merits.

Fighting for tertiary treatment, fighting for an improvement in the timetable. I think I'm correct in saying that I've won the first battle and we have improved the timetable. When you've improved the timetable to get that in you've also, of course, won half the battle for tertiary treatment. So I'm quite happy with my batting performance within Treasury Board., It's probably even out of order to answer those questions because they are not within my administrative responsibility, but I'm certainly intent as an MLA in this House on making sure that we improve considerably on the promises of yesteryear.

Bids on jobs. I wish you had read the whole letter out — it's a very good letter. I point out that where we have a clause in our policy that allows preference for British Columbia bids, we will also have the same kind of clause for union bids as long as the public purse does not suffer unduly.

As far as selective or open bidding, I think you are really putting a construction on my words that…maybe it's my fault for not being too clear. I also think you are looking at the question of administration in a very narrow way. The Queen's Printer is a knowledgeable person. Our department has been in

[ Page 2055 ]

existence for a long time. They know the kind of print shops that are able to do the kind of work that is required, and the bid list is always open to amendment. We're getting letters in constantly to put people on the bidding list who have never had an opportunity to bid before. That's what I meant in that letter. I think that's a good policy and certainly there is no suggestion at all that it's a selective list. It's simply that in that very complicated art, the graphics art, the Queen's Printer knows whereof he speaks.

Regarding the Alcoholic and Narcotic Addiction Foundations. I think it is fair to say that in my office, for the first time ever, the alcoholic and the narcotic addiction leaders met all the cabinet ministers involved in the solution of those awful problems — together in one room for the first time. That took place last October-November; there are four Ministers directly involved.

What we are attempting to do is to make sure that the money that I administer by virtue of a specific vote, together with the money that the Minister of Rehabilitation (Hon. Mr. Levi) pays out, together with the money that the Minister of Health Services and Hospital Insurance (Hon. Mr. Cocke) pays out, together with the responsibility of the Department of Education, is used correctly. We all know what our left and right hands are doing, and there is some coordination and some administrative efficiency applied to this thorny problem.

On top of that, we have decided to approach, if you like, the ideology, the methodology that is really at the root of this problem. And even as I speak, the three Ministers are now discussing some of the coordination that is required.

I think it is fair to say that I will be answering your question directly; I will be part of the decision making process. Certainly there will be no alteration or closing down of these things or withdrawal of funds until we have gotten together and put together the four Ministers responsible for gathering the solutions to this problem. No decisions are made until we got full cooperation, full concert, harmony and accord with the foundations mentioned.

Your last question dealt with the Provincial Elections Act. I couldn't agree more with your criticisms regarding enumeration and polling divisions.

There is a constant updating of polling divisions or polling districts which always seems to come in a rush at the end. I fully anticipate a brand new Provincial Elections Act. I fully anticipate a redistribution of some sort over the lifetime of this parliament. We are, however, still in the early days of our first full session since the election.

I can assure you that all MLAs, party leaders, staffs and so on will be asked to comment and give ideas on this most important piece of legislation by which we all get here. Your comments, as a new Member, perhaps will be even more appreciated than those of people like myself who have got long in the tooth.

MS. CHAIRMAN: The Hon. Member for South Peace River.

MR. PHILLIPS: Madam Chairman, I have a couple of questions I'd like to ask the Hon. Provincial Secretary.

I have an article here, Madam Chairman, from the Vancouver Province March 9, 1973. It's entitled "No Grant So No Tour for Elgar Choir": 'British Columbia's famed Elgar Choir, now in its 49th year, must cancel an overseas farewell tour planned for June because the Secretary of State has refused a grant,' says leader Charles E. Findlay."

Madam Chairman, the question I'd like to ask the Provincial Secretary is this: did this choir apply to the provincial government for a grant? If they did: what was the amount of the grant requested; why was the grant refused; did the Provincial Secretary go to the Secretary of State on behalf of this choir and ask for assistance so that this tour could take place?

If a grant had been made, out of what fund would it have come? We appear to have funds to donate to City Stage, which is a hilarious noon-hour "seduction" type of operation. They were given a grant in 1972, according to an article here dated February 12: "Ray Mickel, managing director of City Stage at 591 Howe, said in a press release that grants from the B.C. Cultural Fund, the Vancouver Foundation and the Koerner Foundation enabled the theatre to re-open."

This particular lunch hour theatre has been described as being "lewd, offensive, dirty-minded, questionable, outrageous, morbidly sexual and in the worst possible taste." Yet…

HON. MR. HALL: Are you advertising it or criticizing it? (Laughter).

MR. PHILLIPS: Yet we're able to make a donation to this "hilarious noon-hour seduction" programme from our cultural fund, but here is the Elgar Choir which was not able to take its yearly overseas trip. Surely to goodness, there must be some leveling factor among the grants from this cultural

[ Page 2056 ]

fund. Madam Chairman, I wish the Provincial Secretary would give us some guidelines as to what type of operation is going to receive grants from this cultural fund.

This doesn't seem to be in very good taste. I must say that I haven't seen the show. The article also says "filthy but, oh so funny." I haven't seen the stage play. I wonder if the Provincial Secretary saw this before he made the donation from the cultural fund.

Madam Chairman, we have sat in this Legislature well over the 40 days. I would like to make a recommendation to the Provincial Secretary on behalf of anybody who lives out of the lower mainland or out of the City of Victoria and attends this Legislature. At the present time we receive a cost of living allowance for 40 days only.

I'll admit that there's been some talk in this Legislature and in the paper lately about the cost of a democratic system and the cost of speaking in this Legislature — which I don't go along with. I think that when the day comes that we have to…

MS. CHAIRMAN: Order, Hon. Member.

MR. PHILLIPS: ….have closure in this Legislature and put a price on it…

MS. CHAIRMAN: Order. You are out of order. That was…

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, I'm talking to the Provincial Secretary, Madam Chairman, about…

MS. CHAIRMAN: That is covered in vote 1.

MR. PHILLIPS: It comes under his provision.

MS. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, you're out of order.

MR. PHILLIPS: I would like to ask the Provincial Secretary if he would consider…

MS. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Member, you are out of order. Would you kindly sit down.

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, how come I'm out of order?

MS. CHAIRMAN: Because that is covered in vote 1.

MR. PHILLIPS: No, it was not covered in vote 1. I'm talking about MLAs salaries and costs of living.

MS. CHAIRMAN: It was provided for in vote 1.

HON. R.M. STRACHAN (Minister of Highways): On a point of order. When the Chairman is on his or her feet, you are supposed to sit down.

MR. CHABOT: Stand up to make a point of order.

HON. MR. STRACHAN: You can't stand up when the Chairman is on his or her feet. As a former substitute Chairman, he should know better.

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, there's another point I'd like to ask the Provincial Secretary about, Madam Chairman. The role of an Opposition Member is becoming much greater, due to the fantastic workload that this socialist Government is bringing in. We find that — I won't say that we don't have a Government now that we can trust, but we want to keep them honest, I'll put it that way, Madam Chairman. It requires a great deal more work than the previous Opposition had to do. A great deal more work.

MS. CHAIRMAN: Hon. Member, I thought that we had settled this problem before.

MR. PHILLIPS: Well, I'm talking about secretaries for the MLAs. Doesn't that come under the Provincial Secretary?

MS. CHAIRMAN: That is under vote 1.

Interjection by an Hon. Member.

MR. PHILLIPS: Under the Speaker? Well, I thought it was the Provincial Secretary. I'm sorry.

MS. CHAIRMAN: It's under the Speaker's Office.

MR. PHILLIPS: I'm sorry, Madam Chairman. Well, I'll sit down and maybe rephrase my question.

HON. MR. HALL: Madam Chairman, I have no wish not to answer questions about the funds. You realize that first of all, the funds are under the administration of the Department of Finance and the arbiter of the "yes" and the "no" is the Treasury Board., But you're quite right; I made it clear that applications should come through my office so I can follow them. From that point of view, I certainly want to advise you.

You've put your finger on the problem that faces the cultural fund or any other grant: who is to say what is good on the one hand, or what is bad on the other. You say that City Stage is bad and something else is good.

MR. PHILLIPS: I didn't say that.

HON. MR. HALL: You have quoted a newspaper article that said City Stage was bad. Fair enough. I don't want to get into a hassle. The point is that that

[ Page 2057 ]

shows you where the difficulty is. Frankly, that's why we have a committee that's independent to try to make recommendations on the merits of the case as they see them.

City Stage was warmly recommended by many, many people highly regarded for their advice and reputation in the performing arts. So the City Stage got a grant. We've made literally hundreds of grants, and I really don't want to get into a discussion about each and every one of them. But I'll make the time-honoured proposal to you that we will table in the fall all the grants that were made out of the funds.

As far as the Elgar Choir is concerned, yes, they were turned down by the federal Secretary of State. They have come to us to inquire about the possibility of getting some money. They have not presented us with a firm proposal. When they do, we'll be able to judge it on its merits. Just because they've been turned down by one group, doesn't mean to say we should automatically pick it up.

Quite honestly, we know that we're going to be inundated shortly with applications in all the funds and in the general grant vote to the Provincial Secretary's department for many of the LIP-sponsored activities in this province. The federal government is quite obviously pulling right out and leaving people high and dry in many good programmes. Again, you and I could probably have a debate sometime on what is a good programme and what is a bad programme. As a specific point, it would be interesting for us to have a debate about what is a good "cultural" activity and what is a bad "cultural" activity.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Oak Bay.

MR. G.S. WALLACE (Oak Bay): Mr. Chairman, I'll be very brief. I wished to raise the same point regarding the question of grants. I'll stand corrected if the Minister would wish it raised under a specific vote, either 196 or 200, as the case may be.

The one which might better come under vote 200 concerns the fact that here in Victoria, at 207 Government Street, we have the Emily Carr residence, which is the birthplace of Canada's greatest lady painter.

Some five years ago, Mr. Chairman, the Jaycees (Junior Chamber of Commerce) in Victoria, as a centennial project took on the renovation and the refurbishing of the Emily Carr Home. This, like so many other renovation projects, ran far beyond the estimated costs. I think they were looking at $50,000 and they've already spent $65,000 and still have more money to spend. There have been other problems with the City of Victoria and I don't want to take the time of the House to go into all the details.

Beyond question, Mr. Chairman, this is a historic residence and a very important part of the history of this province and certainly the history of Canada. I'm not denying that perhaps the federal government should be much more interested than it obviously is in helping the Junior Chamber of Commerce, but be that as it may, Mr. Chairman, the federal government is not meeting its responsibility to a very vital part of Canada's history, and this being the case I would hope that the Provincial Secretary would look at this very sympathetically. It's quite possible from his answer to the previous question that the same applies here. The Junior Chamber of Commerce has not applied to the provincial government.

May I say that I am not speaking on behalf of the Chamber of Commerce. I read this in the newspaper and it seems to me a very valid and realistic way in which someone in government should come to the rescue of this particular building.

The other point I just wanted to raise, Mr. Chairman, was the question of another choir called the Orion Male Choir of Victoria, which is travelling to the world-wide musical festival in Wales this year as a representative of Canada. The Orion Male Choir has already been turned down by the Canada Council and by the Secretary of State Department. It is committed to a trip to this festival in Wales which, I believe, is this summer. I'm fully appreciative of the Provincial Secretary's point that he can well be inundated with requests but, Mr. Chairman, this is the oldest established male voice choir in Canada. It was established in 1892 and is presently the B.C. community choir champion choir. I do feel that while one could find endless numbers of projects to which the government could give money, these two particular examples that I have quoted really do rise above just the parochial interest. We have the Orion Choir which is somewhat unique, as I say, in being the oldest established choir, and we have the Emily Carr residence which is not just a Victoria Or even a provincial emblem but is something very historic for the whole of Canada. I wonder if the Provincial Secretary could comment on his thoughts.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Provincial Secretary.

HON. MR. HALL: The Emily Carr house, first of all. Five years ago the Victoria Jaycees entered into agreement with the federal government for restoration and we have not had an application or communication with them since. But we have a fund, an Archeological and Historic Sites Protection Act, and an active committee — an advisory board — which has got a number of experts on it. We have a couple of dozen sites under review now, and certainly that's an important one. They should, of course, if they feel

[ Page 2058 ]

the federal government has finished their agreement or whatever is the case, come to us.

Similarly, the Orion Male Choir, if it's representing B.C. in a championship of some sort, the money is provided to do that kind of work. Now whether they meet the obvious requirements that would have to be instituted at some decision-making level, I don't know. I have some trouble accommodating the statement that they are the champions of the community choirs — a number have made that claim. But certainly if the Orion Male Choir wants to go to Wales they should make an application and let it stand on its merits.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Cariboo.

MR. FRASER: I would like to know how much money was spent last year in the Department of the Provincial Secretary on the restoration of Barkerville. I might say all the work has been excellent but I would like to know how much was spent last year and how much is budgeted for this year. Last year in Barkerville there were almost 200,000 visitors to this historic site and I certainly hope this restoration work is going to carry on. I know the Parks Branch are involved as well as your branch, Mr. Minister, but I'd like to know if the capital money is in there again this year.

While I'm on the subject of Barkerville, I'm looking for some Clydesdale horses that the government owns. Mr. Chairman, to you, Mr. Minister, I believe they come under your jurisdiction. These lovely animals were scooped away to the Kootenays to Fort Steele a year or so ago…

HON. MR. NIMSICK: I'll give you a couple for breeding stock.

MR. FRASER: I understand they are flourishing and increasing, but I would like to request, Mr. Chairman, through to the Minister, to take half a dozen of them up to Barkerville for two or three weeks. I don't see why they all have to be in one location. I don't think it will break the government to take them up. They have facilities at Barkerville for them. I'm referring to the summer tourist months when they'd be a great attraction. Thank you.

HON. MR. HALL: We spent $200,000 last year, Mr. Member. This year we are estimating a slight increase to $205,000.

Clydesdales: I'm not an expert on Clydesdales. I do know, however, that there is a programme being established this year because of the R.C.M.P. Centenary, which is focused on Fort Steele. I presume that the horsemen will need horses and that they are going to be a very live part of the celebration of the 100 years. Now whether or not the musical ride will be done on Clydesdales I don't know. (Laughter). You've heard the Member say that he will lend you two for breeding stock and I guess he's going to talk to the Minister of Agriculture (Hon. Mr. Stupich) or something. But it's a good point and we'll see what we can do.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Columbia River.

MR. CHABOT: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I see in the annual report that the Minister is the official organizer of official visits and functions, I'm wondering whether he was responsible for the arrangements and the facilities that were provided for the trip to Olympia, because I understand that the Cadillac was taken out of mothballs. I'd also like to know just how many Ministers were in that vehicle (laughter) because I've received reports on that tour that eight or nine Ministers came out of a Cadillac (laughter) and some people said it looked like the Beverley Hillbillies. (Laughter). So I'm wondering really whether you allowed this great number of people to enter the Cadillac and leave the Cadillac in front of the parliament buildings in Olympia.

Next, Mr. Chairman, I'm glad to hear that the Minister is considering changes to the Election Act, Because I look at your annual report on page U-22 and lo and behold who do I see going into a poll but Farley Mowat. He's not a British Columbian, is he? Here he is going into a poll. Thank God there are going to be changes to the Election Act.

Also since you've been Government there's been an acquisition of rare, exquisite and expensive paintings. There are two paintings of Emily Carr purchased and one by Edward Shrapnell, acquired from an owner in Australia. I am wondering whether the Minister would tell us just what was paid for these paintings and where these paintings are hanging.

The next point that I would like to raise is that the Minister, Mr. Chairman, when he took office, said there was going to be an examination of the orders-in-council from August 30 to September 15. He said this:

" 'In the short time I've been in my desk I've realized that the last two weeks of the outgoing government need investigating and I've asked my staff to present me with copies of all the orders-in-council passed quite correctly and quite properly in terms of the authority under which we operate.' The Provincial Secretary said he has already referred the orders to Education Minister Eileen Dailly and Resource Minister Williams for further study. Hall refused to be more specific but he said that the government could rescind the cabinet order if it wished."

I'm wondering if there have been any orders-in-

[ Page 2059 ]

council rescinded, changed or anything of that nature, and whether his elaborate investigation has brought out any misdemeanor on the part of the former government.

Also I'd like the Provincial Secretary to tell me just how many handicapped people have been engaged by the civil service between September 15 to December 31. How many were engaged between January 1, 1972 and September 15, 1972, if you have that information.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Provincial Secretary.

HON. MR. HALL: The Emily Carr paintings: I can't give you details of the price paid for each of the paintings. I could get that for you. The paintings are on display in the Archives and Museum complex on the other side, and we hope that they will also travel and be made available in displays around the province from time to time.

Orders-in-council: yes, we conducted a search. We're not suggesting misdemeanors — that was your word. We wanted to find out what had happened in that interregnum period, if that is the correct expression, and we were also confirmed in our suspicions. Some of the decisions made showed a complete lack of understanding about who won the election, and what you should have been doing in those two weeks and what you did do.

MR. CHABOT: A supplemental: You didn't answer the question of how many handicapped workers you have engaged. I want to know how many orders-in-council were rescinded that had been passed between August 30 and September 15.

HON. MR. HALL: I'll have to ask if the Member would be good enough to place the question about handicapped persons on the order paper. I'll make sure it is answered. As far as the orders in council…none were rescinded per se as a result of my investigation. The investigation took place because, as I said, we were anxious to know just exactly what the government was doing in the period August 30 to September 15.

AN HON. MEMBER: How many appointments were made?

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for South Peace River.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. Order.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I recognize the Hon. Member for South Peace River.

MR. PHILLIPS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I mentioned before and I would like to mention again to the Provincial Secretary about all these…I'm sure this doesn't come under Vote 1 because the literature is headed, Deputy Provincial Secretary. I am referring to these great passes that we get. We get a whole sheaf of them. We can travel on anything except the one thing we want to travel on. I'm sure all your backbench Members from up-country would appreciate having a pass on an airline or something so they can get home.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. I would request the Hon. Member to bring this up under consideration of Vote 1.

MR. PHILLIPS: The passes come from the Provincial Secretary.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. While it is so that these sections are administered by the Provincial Secretary's department to some extent, the fact is that there is a special vote and we would ask you to bring it up then.

MR. PHILLIPS: There's no vote for these — they're all free.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Vote No. 1. I otherwise rule you out of order.

MR. PHILLIPS: I sure am having a tough time tonight.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for North Peace River.

MR. SMITH: One question, Mr. Chairman, to the Hon. Provincial Secretary. I raised a matter earlier in the year and there seemed to be an indication we might be doing something about it, and that is the matter of the celebration of 100 years of service to Canada and the province by the RCMP. Is there a special programme going to be laid on; if so, will it be mid-summer or could we have any details?

HON. MR. HALL: We just recently received the full itinerary from the RCMP officer in charge of the celebrations. I am having it copied and all MLAs will receive a copy of it together with specific mention of their ridings and so on. That will soon be in your possession, just as soon as I can get back to the desk and sign the things off. It is in the works now, Mr. Chairman. I think, if I may say, I think your leader already has a copy, as indeed does the leader of the

[ Page 2060 ]

Liberal Party and the leader of the Conservative Party.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. First Member for Vancouver South.

MR. J. RADFORD (Vancouver South): Mr. Chairman, I rise to discuss what has been an urgent concern to more than 30,000 people employed by the Government of British Columbia. I am referring to the long overdue introduction of collective bargaining rights.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please. The Hon. Member is out of order. He cannot discuss legislation during consideration of the estimates.

MR. RADFORD: It's not in yet, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, the point is, you cannot discuss legislation either proposed or the need for legislation.

Interjections by some Hon. Members.

MR. RADFORD: The first speaker got up, Mr. Chairman, and discussed it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 181 pass?

Vote 181 approved.

Vote 182: General administration: $161,526 — approved.

On vote 183: Central microfilm bureau: $278,438.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Langley.

MR. McCLELLAND: Mr. Chairman, just a quick question with regard to temporary assistance with the central microfilm bureau. A substantial increase in temporary assistance from nil to $45,000; could you explain that Mr. Provincial Secretary?

HON. MR. HALL: It is to provide staff for microfilming of a backlog of land registry work in New Westminster, in Vancouver and in Victoria, a four-year project which commenced in the 1972-1973 fiscal year.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 183 pass?

Vote 183 approved.

Vote 184: Postal Branch; $2,062,184 — approved.

Vote 185: Provincial library; $341,640 — approved.

Vote 186: Provincial archives; $276,460 — approved.

Vote 187: Library Development Commission; $560,640 — approved.

On vote 188: Library and library association grants: $900,000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for North Peace River.

MR. SMITH: On this particular vote, Mr. Chairman; I realize that throughout the province you make grants to libraries. Could you give me the schedule you use; is it on a per capita grant or based upon the number of people that actually belong to the library association in the respective area; or on what basis do we determine the amount of the grant to the respective libraries throughout the province?

HON. MR. HALL: There is a schedule drawn up by the Library Development Commission which is set up by Act with members of the community on it. That schedule lists every library and library association that qualifies for the grant but there has to be…it is not a flat grant in terms of population. They have to produce a library service that is up to standard.

We are having some trouble, for instance, at the moment in the Sunshine Coast. Once that standard is met then we will support it. We have another system of starting grants which takes care of the smaller communities. The list of grants is extensive, starting off with public library associations right through from Alert Bay to Powell River, alphabetically, and goes on with the municipal and regional library grants.

If you would like, Mr. Member, I will table the list of grants with the criteria at the top of the list.

MR. SMITH: Thanks very much.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 188 pass?

Vote 188 approved.

On vote 189: Queen's Printer; $10.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Where is he?

MR. CHAIRMAN: There is something wrong with this one. It appears that vote 189 would seem to be for considerably more money than that. No pardon me, $10.

[ Page 2061 ]

HON. MR. BARRETT: Do you want to put it up, Mr. Attorney General?

Vote 189 approved.

Vote 190: Government House: $86,168 — approved.

Vote 191: Agent General's office and British Columbia House, London, England: $282,131 — approved.

Vote 192: Indian Advisory Act; $46,038 — approved.

Vote 193: Assessment of Class 13, Workmen's Compensation Act; $1,200,000 — approved.

Vote 194: Unemployment Insurance (Civil Service): $2,415,000 — approved.

Vote 19 5: Incidentals and Contingencies; $100,000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Member for Columbia River.

MR. CHABOT: Could the Minister elaborate on this expenditure of $100,000 as it is a substantial increase, and tell me what it covers?

HON. MR. HALL: Incidentals and Contingencies basically cover government entertainment and also the premiums on government air insurance for all civil servants. This appropriation is properly described, I think, by the words incidentals and contingencies. The cost of Government entertainment at the cabinet level is charged to the vote.

From this vote is paid also the cost of the free issue of statutes, legislative papers, et cetera to those authorized by order-in-council to receive them, pursuant to the Public Printing Act. Of course, as you know, many of you have requested more copies of the work that we do and that has necessarily meant that we must inflate that figure from its previous one on the left hand side of the page, The annual premium of $4,800 to cover the cost of aviation insurance is also charged including conveyance to and from airports. I think that summarizes the $ 100,000 in that vote.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Shall vote 195 pass?

Vote 195 approved.

Vote 196: Department of Provincial Secretary. Grants, et cetera; $1,750,000 — approved;

Vote 197: Grants in Aid of construction of homes and recreational centres; $6,850,000 — approved.

Vote 198: Grants re Alcoholic and narcotic foundations; $675,000 — approved.

Vote 199: Capital Improvement District Act, $250,000 — approved.

Vote 200: Archaeological and Historic Sites Protection Act $630,000 — approved.

HON. MR. BARRETT: …to protect the founding convention site of the Social Credit Party. (Laughter)

On Vote 201: provincial emergency programme, $750,000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. First Member 'for Victoria.

MR. N.R. MORRISON (Victoria): Mr. Chairman, as a Member who's been involved with civil defence for quite some time, particularly with the air section, I would like to suggest again that one of the most vital items involved in civil defence and which also has its use towards peacetime use, is the ability to find landing strips near small communities. I'd like to recommend that to the Minister's consideration for this year. We found that one of the biggest problems in the air section was finding places to land near small communities for emergency service.

Vote 201 approved.

Vote 202: Provincial Elections Act, 129,540 — approved.

Vote 203: Public Inquiries Act, $100,000 — approved.

Vote 204: Civil Service Commission administration, $637,634 — approved.

Vote 205: grants re civil service — gratuities under Sec. 77 of Civil Service Act and other government employees, $100,000 — approved.

Vote 206: retiring allowances — Civil Service Act, Sec. 70, and other government employees, $250,000 — approved.

Vote 207 — Civil Service Commission, civil service schedule bond, $19,000 — approved.

Vote 208 — Superannuation Branch administra-

[ Page 2062 ]

tion, $480,874 — approved.

Vote 209 — civil service superannuation and retirement benefits, $18,175,000 — approved Vote 210 — Members of Legislative Assembly Superannuation Act, $65,000 — approved.

Vote 211 — Public Services Medical Plan Act, $1,425,000 — approved.

Vote 212 — Public Services Group Insurance Act, $231,772 — approved.

Vote 213 — Municipal Superannuation Act, $53,500 — approved.

ESTIMATES, DEPARTMENT OF
TRAVEL INDUSTRY

On vote 232 Department of Travel Industry, Minister's office, $18,616.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I recognize the Hon. Minister of Travel Industry.

HON. MR. HALL: I don't mind the vote going through, but I do want to introduce to the House a new Deputy Minister. He has not had the privilege and pleasure of sitting here as Deputy Minister although he has served this government for many, many years. I just want to pay my particular respects if I may, Mr. Premier and Mr. Chairman, to the Deputy Minister of Travel Industry, Dick Colby.

Vote 232 approved.

Vote 233 — general administration, $39,422 — approved.

Vote 234: Community Recreation Branch, $606,470 — approved.

Vote 235 — Travel Division, $3,433,832 — approved.

Vote 236 — California and London offices, $101,234 — approved.

Vote 237 — Film and Photographic Branch, $390,792 — approved.

HON. MR. BARRETT: Mr. Chairman, I move the committee rise, report resolutions and ask leave to sit again.

Motion approved.

The House resumed; Mr. Speaker in the chair.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Speaker, the committee reports resolutions and asks leave to sit again.

Leave granted.

Hon. Mr. Macdonald files answers to questions.

Hon. Mrs. Dailly files answers to questions.

Hon. Mr. Strachan files answer to questions.

Hon. Mr. Barrett moves adjournment of the House.

Motion approved.

The House adjourned at 10:48 p.m.