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The House met at 2:00 p.m.

On the motion of the Honourable L.R. Peterson, Bill (No. 33) intituled An Act to Amend the Consumer Protection Act was introduced, read a first time, and Ordered to be placed on the Orders of the Day for second reading at the next sitting after today.

BUDGET DEBATE

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Public Works.

HON. W.N. CHANT (Victoria): Mr. Speaker, at the outset, I would like to say welcome to a large number of young people in the gallery today. It is not often that we have the opportunity of seeing such a large number present in the galleries and I trust that, this afternoon, they will not only enjoy their visit to the House but they will also profit thereby.

Mr. Speaker, in rising to participate in this Budget Debate, I want, first of all, to express my appreciation to the electors in our capital city for having permitted me the honour of being one of their M.L.A.s for the past 18 years. They re-expressed their confidence in our Government and their Members, during the last election, by casting their ballots for us in a number that exceeded those received by candidates in any other constituency in the Province. This speaks very well indeed for the capital city of Victoria (interruption).

Your memory is very short, my good friend. I did not say that, I'm sure. Furthermore, today is exactly one year since I last spoke in the House. It was on February 16, a year ago (interruption). You are thinking of yourself, my good friend, no other one.

Greater Victoria enjoys a continuous sound, natural growth. The good citizens from other parts of Canada and the United States are attracted to this area of British Columbia because of its pleasant surroundings and salubrious climate. Our natural amenities are second to none. The question being faced is not whether continuous growth will be experienced; the paramount problem is how to provide adequate, modern services for an ever-expanding population growth. I am sure that the municipal councils are doing their utmost to provide these essential services.

In speaking of the Department of Public Works, I know that there is a question uppermost in the minds of many of the honourable Members in the House and, no doubt, it is, what about the B.C. Building? I want to report that we are making rapid progress on the planning and programming … (interruption). Yes, sometimes, Mr. Speaker, ignorance can laugh very loudly. For the simple reason that, in a building of this dimension, it's practically the difference between that of building an ordinary building such as a pleasure cruiser, comparing it to boats, or building a Queen Mary. Therefore, Mr. Speaker, one of the main things to do in programming or planning a building is, first of all, to do good, sound, essential programming for, without that, you run the risk of a very poor result. This is being done and we have some very capable consultants and architects who are working with our department. I am sure, indeed, the building will be a credit to the people of British Columbia and also to the Government.

I'm also pleased, Mr. Speaker, to report that a good number of projects have recently been approved and the Department of Public Works is in the process of calling tender to some thirty or more projects throughout our Province. These projects are estimated to cost in excess of $5 million and possibly up to $6 million. This is an estimate, of course. A large percentage of the projects are renovations and repairs; consequently, they have a high labour content and will help ease the labour problem, particularly in the construction industry. In the past year, our department staff proceeded with programmes and plans for various new buildings and also the renovation and repair of existing structures. Consequently, we are in a position to proceed on projects with a minimum amount of delay.

As the Minister of this Department of Public Works, I have followed a policy of having programmes and plans studied and carefully prepared before going out to tender and the trade recognizes the plans coming from the Department of Public Works of British Columbia as being some of, if not the best, plans they have to work with in the Province. This, in a large measure, helps to avoid an undue amount of extra costs during construction.

I'm also pleased, Mr. Speaker, to note that railroad and power development is proceeding apace within our Province. I can well remember various occasions when the Opposition quite loudly opposed some of these developments, but nevertheless, it is very interesting, at the present time, to notice how they clamour, loud and long, to claim it was their original idea (interruption). That little thought sticks in your mind, my honourable friend. It's about time you got rid of it, I think.

The Member from Kootenay, as usual, expressed some of his economic thinking and also the associate honourable Members' in his party. They have the misconceived idea that interest on a net debt, or that on a contingent liability, is all one and the same thing. As soon as this is mentioned, they start to raise a cackle and make a big noise about it, but it only indicates to me one thing. They don't understand the difference between paying for a dead horse, or for a live horse that works and produces far in excess of its keep. Apparently, they can't differentiate between this. In fact, Mr. Speaker, their lack of discernment reminds me very much of the story of a certain clergyman who liked to go to the horse races and put little bets on the horses. Now, he had to be quite careful about this, because some of his parishioners didn't approve of it. So he attended and, on this particular occasion, there had been four races and he had lost in each race. He was watching the goings on down in the paddock, where they bring the horses out and parade them around a little, and he noticed, down in the paddock, a Catholic Father down there looking at the horses and he, apparently, blessed the horse before each race. In each of the four previous races, the horse that had had the attention of the Father won. So he thought, "This is a dead cinch. Now, I'm going to make something on this." So, he watched very carefully at the fifth race and, eventually, he noticed the horse who had the attention paid to it. Up he goes and lays a good, healthy sum right on his nose, more than usual. Then, he waits for the race. Away the horses go and this horse is out front, leading, but, all of a sudden, he stumbles, falls, collapses and dies. Well, he couldn't make out what had happened. So, after the race, he approached the Catholic Father and explained the situation — how he attended the races and didn't want it publicized and so forth. He said, "You know, I watched the four races before and I noticed the horse that you blessed won in each case. What happened in the fifth race?" he said. "I can't understand it." The

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Catholic Father says, "You haven't very good discernment and you don't understand. You see, you don't know the difference between a blessing and the Last Rites."

Mr. Speaker, the discernment in regard of interest is of about the same category as that expressed by the honourable Opposition Members (interruption). Well, my dear friend, possibly you have heard of the doctor, who had reached a very ripe old age and was still practising. They asked him how it was that he had lived to such an old age. He said it was likely because he hadn't died. So, possibly, that is the reason why some of the Opposition Members are still in this House.

However, let me go on to something of more merit than just these…Speaking more seriously, the Honourable Member from North Vancouver–Seymour, I noticed in his discourse, particularly … I think it was in the Throne Debate, talking of unemployment and causes, he said that war was the cause of unemployment. This is contrary to all fact and experience. Again, it indicates a lack of understanding in certain economics. War has an insatiable appetite for products. It is destruction and, if there is anything in this world that increases employment, it is war. Nevertheless, war is, certainly, the last resort that humanity should resort to and shouldn't resort to at all, to try to provide employment. It is basically wrong. In fact, war is the most foolish thing that humanity can indulge in.

Another matter, Mr. Speaker, that has been drawn quite forceably to my attention, in recent times, is the action of Prime Minister Trudeau and his Government in commuting the death sentences on individuals who have shot policemen in cold blood, when the Courts have declared the death penalty. I want to say that the police are our thin line of defense against lawlessness. Police have many onerous and dangerous duties to perform in their line of duty and a policeman is continuously exposed to the criminal and lawless element in our society. Police officers are also human beings and I find them of very high standard. Commuting the death sentence on those who murder policemen in cold blood, when a policeman is carrying out his duty, will demoralize the effective work of our police officers. In fact, my opinion, Mr. Speaker, is that the Prime Minister and his Government, in commuting the death sentences of police killers, is repugnant to the concept of justice, law and order.

Mr. Speaker, many of the young people today are highly disturbed and I don't blame them. I think they have good reason to be because there are many conditions prevailing which cause them to have doubt of what is in store for them. It was, until quite recently, oftentimes proclaimed that a cure-all for unemployment could be found in the field of education. Education is a very valuable asset to every and any individual, and each and every one should obtain the greatest amount possible for them to obtain. But, after spending 15 to 20 years getting an education, you, all too often, find that jobs are not available, not only in the professional or technical field or other fields in which they are trained, but a job at almost anything is not available. We all know that thousands of things need to be done, endless services are required. But young people are enforced to be uselessly idle because of a worshipful, financial idolatry that dictates to them in our economy that it cannot be financed and paid for. Let us intelligently adapt and redirect our monetary and finance mechanism to serve human needs so that the multitude of good things which knowledge and science have made physically possible will become financially possible to the betterment of mankind.

I would like to say, at this point, that destruction will not enrich you and this applies to any and everyone in life. That's one of the reasons why war is folly, outside of the fact that it destroys human life. Destruction will not enrich you but millions would rather die than think; therefore, millions die. When we do the right thing at the right time, we will obtain the right results.

There is another matter, Mr. Speaker, that has been of particular interest to me recently and that is in the field of economics and international affairs and what has been devised and known as "special drawing rights" or paper gold. This, Mr. Speaker, is a fuzzy monetary concept. It is a very poor substitute for real gold — paper gold is based on the vagaries of international agreements and integrity. Mr. Speaker, I think a much wiser move and a more practical move, would be to revalue real gold at whatever figure is necessary. Whether it's a dollar an ounce or more is not the question. For, irrespective of the evaluation figure, it is but an imputed value to a special mineral substance which has worldwide recognition and ready acceptance as a means of settling international imbalances of trade and commerce. It's not necessary to have a gold-base content in a National economy. But, for international trade, I think, it is by far and away still the best method of settling our international imbalances of trade and commerce which cannot be settled otherwise. This can be accomplished by putting a correct evaluation on it. Furthermore, it would also provide a high degree of confidence in export and import transactions. Many Governments and countries would prosper and, simultaneously, gainful employment would become available for many presently unemployed. Imagine the great boost there would be in the mining industry. Now, insofar as the value of gold is concerned, over and above what was a good return on the mining effort, depending upon the quality of ore and the cost of extracting, over and above that a Government could collect the royalty or whatever was required to bring it up to the price that was placed on it in the world market.

Also, I know that the honourable Members will be waiting for a little more economic thought. The present practice of chartered banks being permitted to do the major share of our monetizing, or having the Bank of Canada perform 100 per cent of the monetizing function, would not outwardly change the customary accounting mechanism for sound money — we have sound money, today, and we want to keep it as such — but would produce dynamically improved economic results for labour and industry by effectually removing an artificial financial bottleneck. And, again, a word of admonition — administrative bottlenecks, financial or otherwise, are usually found at the top.

To illustrate my story, possibly — because so many look at the financial system and don't grasp what is involved … to illustrate my story, I will mention … This is a true story of a certain individual in Calgary who decided to install his own hot water tank. He did so. He connected up the gas and he connected up the thermostat controls and water and so forth and then he turned it on. But what a racket! It wouldn't function properly, it was always giving trouble. What was found out to be the case — everything seemed to be there, all the parts were there — but he had connected the cold water to the hot water and the hot water to the cold. Otherwise, it was a very good installation. This, somewhat, illustrates the situation we are in today, in regard to the field of monetization — the birth and generation of money.

We hear a great deal about inflation and deflation. It's a worldwide problem and, therefore, so as not to be mis-

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quoted, I'm going to read what I have to say about it.

Recently there have been more words written and said about inflation — its causes and cures — than at any time in contemporary history. There is a sense of desperation in the air. The question is whether a free market economy can really cope with the problem. I believe it can — but not by a continuation of outmoded, illconsidered, unintelligent, economic nostrums which, past and present, have been foisted on an unsuspecting public as expert advice and which, so far, has intensified, rather than providing an acceptable remedy (interruption).

I'm not talking about anyone in particular. I'm talking about the conditions as a whole. Again, your lack of understanding surfaces. It just indicates that you don't know what you're talking about, honourable Member. May I interject here, that we can have real prosperity only when healthy profits can be realized in our economy. On the contrary, our Socialist friends say, "A curse on profits." Their objective, apparently, is a regimented, planned, profitless society, which would demean the individual and glorify a State autocracy. You know, who needs a Socialist Party, when we have Benson's White Paper, and the Prime Minister of Canada and Mr. Benson on the loose in this country? Who needs another Socialist Party?

Here are some examples of some rather useless experiments that run us around in dizzy circles. Experiments they are and they have been tried over and over again. I'll just mention a few of them and let you take a deeper look at them.

First of all, we hear of higher wages, lower wages and freezing wages. Now, if you have higher wages you get inflation and resultant unemployment. If you have lower wages, you get depression — and we had it in the 1930's — you couldn't get it any lower — and you had unemployment. If you freeze wages, you'll have stagnation and also unemployment. Now, let's take a look at high interest rates and low interest rates. If you have high interest rates, the inflationary process takes over and you also get unemployment, because the goods are priced out of reach. Merchants try to push them on you, on credit and everything else, and they pile up and you can't pay the price, or you wonder how you're going to meet your bills at the end of the month or year. Low interest rates — well, we had them in the 1930's. They were down to one and two per cent. Alberta refinanced its whole debt in 1944 at a rate of 2% per cent and that was even after the low pressure of the 1930's. Low interest rates — depression and unemployment. It doesn't solve it. More money in circulation doesn't solve it. You get inflation and unemployment and then they shout less money. Then you get depression and unemployment. What I am trying to point out, Mr. Speaker, is that these attempts to deal with symptoms can be of help of a palliative nature, but they are not a sound solution to the problem which we face in our economy today.

What the Western world and the rest of the world are facing, today, to a great extent, is a choice between financial bondage or Socialist bondage. You don't need to accept either one. There is freedom under free enterprise and democracy as soon as the financial system is synchronized and co-ordinated with the needs of production and distribution. It can be done, because money is a man-made system from beginning to end. Now, variations of the foregoing, plus other related ideas, have been tried and found wanting over and over again.

A manipulation of them may temporarily make you more comfortable, but have failed to treat successfully the root cause of our present economic and monetary malady of being frustrated and hindered in a normal utilization of our great human and material resources to produce and distribute the potential abundance which is physically possible within our domain and our power. For a free enterprise, democratic economy and social order to survive and thrive, it is imperative that realistic new policies, governing the generation and injection of currency and bank credit money into our economy, must be redirected in a manner that will co-ordinate and synchronize the operation, so that production and distribution of real wealth will not be hindered and stultified by arguments of financial necessity that cannot be financed. And this is within the bounds of reason, Mr. Speaker. Human frustration and suffering demand that humanity be freed from this unnecessary financial bondage imposed, in large measure, by certain banking and monetary practices. All money is man made and can be directed to properly serviced human needs.

Now, without going into the detail of explaining, I want to point out some primary steps which I deem to be fundamentally necessary. First, the Bank of Canada should generate all bank deposit funds originating in Canada. Chartered banks should cease their privilege of monetizing real wealth credit. It gives them an ownership of an undue amount of real wealth without producing a like value. A foreign exchange control board should be activated to control the buying and selling of all Canadian funds. We had a great example of that, a little while back, when the Canadian dollar had to be freed. There was a tremendous buying of Canadian funds because, it was presumed, they could be forced up in price; therefore, they were bought at a low figure, forced on the free market, went up in price and the buyers profitted thereby. The Bank of Canada tried to keep up with this for a while, but after two or three billions of it, they had to let her go. This is where a foreign exchange control board would prevent this gambling, international gambling, with the National currency, not for the purpose of investment, but for the purpose of gambling in international or National monetary unit or units. The Bank of Canada should buy Federal Government net debt maturities as they become due, thereby easing the millstone from the taxpayers' necks. Funds so released could be invested in productive and service enterprises. The Federal Government, through the Bank of Canada, should monetize our National Credit and thereby pay for many social services. This would reduce taxation and, simultaneously, increase buying power without a cost plus price inflation.

I might just point out, Mr. Speaker, that bank monetization is money birth; bank demonetization is money demise, which so few economists, when you read the articles or the treaties or the books in the universities, utterly fail to explain or to inform the students of what the facts are. You can search them from beginning to end and not find a sensible interpretation of this function that would do credit to an Aesop's fable. Do not confuse these functions with velocity of circulation, the cycling and recycling of money in our economy, during its life, and I mention its life because it comes into existence and goes out of existence every day, through the function of monetization and demonetization as practiced in banking, or the resultant money pools of business reserves and various ways of saving. These are also a tremendous factor in our economy. This is a velocity of circulation, the reserves and savings that take place in the economy. This also is a great function in the economy which

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I will not take time to touch on.

Until the full control and issue of money and bank deposit credit is restored to the Government, that is, Bank of Canada, all talk of the sovereignty of parliament and democracy is idle and futile. Sound economics and sound government are inseparable. Within the orbit of our Provincial jurisdiction, the record stands, and our Minister of Finance, Premier Bennett, to his great credit, has for 18 years, through thick and thin, stood firm in his resolve to balance our Provincial Budget each and every year. There may be some difference of opinion regarding the allocation of funds, this is normal. But, nevertheless, it is done very wisely and has proven to be so, both in the past and the present. Our Budget is a far more commendable and outstanding Government Budget, in fact, it is the outstanding Budget to be found anywhere in North America. I'm sure all fair-minded honourable Members in the Legislature will give it their unstinted support. British Columbia's Budget leads the way — others may follow. Thank you.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Atlin.

MR. F.A. CALDER (Atlin): Mr. Speaker, again, it is an honour to take my place in this Debate, representing the large constituency of Atlin. I am going to get right down to the business of the problems in my riding, Mr. Speaker, because I think of late … I really don't mind the introductory remarks. I agree that introductory remarks have their place in the House. But I think there has been a lot of Members, on both sides, who have prolonged these introductory remarks and, to me, being one of the older Members in the House, it is sort of a waste of time. But I cannot help but reply briefly to the previous speaker, in a form of a brief criticism, as I am just as long in the House as he is. He has, on several occasions, taken two or three years in a row, to expound on the monetary theory and there are times when he has not spoken of it. Today, he dealt very lightly with it, and it seems to be the sort of subject that is decaying, Mr. Speaker. He did use the words "dead horse" on some other matter and I would like to refer to that phrase of his by saying that perhaps because he did not dwell, for any length of time, on the monetary theory, that, on this side of the House, we consider the monetary theory is a "dead horse."

I don't think the Premier of British Columbia has ever thought that the monetary theory ever lived at all. He was a good Conservative, he still is a good Conservative and he always will be a good Conservative. There is a lot of colleagues of his on his side of the fence and perhaps a lot of Liberals and a sort of coalition in disguise. Anyway, there are several Members on his side of the fence, particularly the previous speaker who has dwelt, almost on every opportunity he has had to speak in the House, to dwell on the monetary theory. But, like I said, today, it was very weak. To me, it's a dying or it is becoming a dead horse.

Mr. Speaker, I am going to get right down to business and deal with three points that are problems in my riding. I'd like first of all to deal with rural electrification. I am quite happy to see, on this particular day, there is an exceptionally large number of students in the galleries and they may be interested in what I have to say on rural electrification, because it is a problem in my constituency. We realize that the Government has a programme on rural electrification and we realize that they are progressing. Perhaps, in some areas, it may be rapid; in other areas, it may be not so rapid, particularly in my riding, It is a definite need, Mr. Speaker, in the northwest of British Columbia.

I am quite gratified that the Government has seen fit to recognize some of the communities, that they realize there may be communities that are going up instead of down. Because of certain industrial circumstances, people are going into these communities and there is the prospect that one day they will be definite, established communities with increased population year after year. In this respect, I would like to say something about subsidized rural electrification. The Government has, in its programme, selected six areas in the Province, which I think is no longer on an experimental basis. It is working. I have one in my riding, the town of Atlin, where we have three units of 550 kilowatts. Ever since it was established, it has been quite an expensive operation. I don't think this subsidized rural electrification ought to be removed from there, because Atlin is a growing town. We have the tourist trade there, and we have mineral explorations, and the people who are engaged in these enterprises are definitely satisfied with the programme. I believe that, last year, improvements, involving power lines, generation, etc. amounted to about $13,000, in the town of Atlin, and the operating deficiencies amounted to about $37,000. So you have a total there of about $50,000. For a small town, I would say that is quite an amount but, then, we are satisfied that that amount of money has been spent to improve the situation there.

Then we have a place…the Member for Mackenzie, she, too, has a place in her constituency — the town of Anahim Lake, in which there is a smaller unit. I think this past year an amount of $13,000 was spent there on a subsidized basis. Then we have other towns, such as Bella Bella, Massett, Port Clements, these last two towns, Mr. Speaker, in your area, and, then, of course, there is the town of Wells. I am talking about remote areas. I am talking about an area in which there is a tremendous amount of development and exploration mainly, and that is my own riding. I have two towns, the town of Telegraph Creek and the town of Eddontenajon, towns of 200 persons or over, respectively, in which there is a crying need for electrification.

Correspondence has been going on for several months, particularly with respect to B.C. Hydro for the town of Telegraph Creek. Telegraph Creek has a historical position — we are now debating and have just concluded one, the Throne Debate, and now on the Budget, and these debates are taking place in our Centennial year — and we talk about historical sites, one of which, of course, is Telegraph Creek. Telegraph Creek will never die as a township. It is the centre of mineral exploration, big game and road construction areas. B.C. Hydro has not seen fit to move into Telegraph Creek because they claim that the population is dwindling away. I would like to say, here and now, Mr. Speaker, that such is not the case. People may be transient there, those who work in the nearby industrial areas, but they do go back in the winter months when they have completed their seasonal employment.

Surveys have been completed in Telegraph Creek with respect to B.C. Hydro being established there. I believe that the reason why nothing has been done is because of the very few non-Indians there; the town is comprised mostly of native Indians. I would like to say, through correspondence, the Indian Affairs Branch is willing to participate in this respect. This concerns many people. It concerns doctors, it concerns nurses, educational people, school teachers, because there is a large number of school children in this particular

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town who still have to study and read under the obsolete and dim oil lamps. Mr. Speaker, I think, in this day and age, we should think about improving this situation so that these children could benefit by a modern improvement other than to live the way their forefathers used to live many years ago.

I and several Members, who are M.L.A.s from the north, continually bring up this particular point and, I think, you, Mr. Speaker, if not many other Members of the House, are getting a little tired of hearing it. We have natural resources that are now being developed up north from which this Government and the south have benefited. Yet, there are not enough returns to the north and, I think, this is a point that has to be taken. I think one of the returns is the improvements in rural electrification. We have complaints from doctors of people, of students, with sore eyes, and they blame the condition whereof I speak. I plead with this Government that they consider — and I know that they will have to subsidize — this situation. There are only two towns in my area and one of them is Eddontenajon, which, no doubt, in the very near future is going to be the next highway division on the Stewart-Cassiar road. We have Good Hope Lake and we have Dease Lake, and, for the south, we have Eddontenajon. I'm going to speak a little later about the mileage and the reason why I think consideration should be given to Eddontenajon. There hasn't been too much correspondence in this respect. But I think that, with the people who are considering moving into this particular territory, certainly, consideration should be given to B.C. Hydro going into Eddontenajon.

The village of New Aiyansh, Mr. Speaker, and another one of Kispiox and several others in the Province already have experienced Indian Affairs Branch participation. I think this is a point that should be considered. There are quite a number of other villages in the Province that are now being considered by B.C. Hydro but, again, I must speak on the very remote areas where this rural electrification is required. This, I think, is a real problem. I could have brought this up under estimates. I could have talked about this with the Minister in his own office. I could have talked to his deputy. But I think this is quite a serious situation and, with the complaints by different departments of Government, both Federal and Provincial, I thought that it might be advisable at this time to bring it to your attention.

The second point that I would like to speak about, as far as local problems are concerned, has to do with flying game wardens. I think the northern Members would be interested in this because they brought it up. I have brought it up, if not all Members, who are M.L.A.s from the north, have brought this situation to the attention of this Government. As far as I am concerned, this is about the fourth time that I am going to bring it to your attention. There is a great need for game wardens in northwest British Columbia. The game warden who we have, and may I say at the very beginning, Mr. Speaker, that this involves an international situation, otherwise, again, I would have brought it to the attention of the officers in their own offices right here in Victoria. But this has an international aspect to it and I think it is only fair to bring it to the attention of the Members of the House.

I have stated that there is only one game warden in Fort Nelson and, not too long ago, they set one up at Watson Lake in the Yukon. We don't believe that, in the large northwest territory, this is good enough. May I say, too, that I have brought the attention of my friend, the Honourable Minister of Recreation and Conservation — we had correspondence going all summer on this, and also the Federal House — to the abuse of game. We don't have absolute evidence but we do have enough evidence, I think, we can go on, with respect to abuse of big game from southeast Alaska. Locally, we have abuses by users of the snowmobile, by users of aircraft. Lately, the complaint has been about the users of aircraft from southeast Alaska. Just a little over a year ago, the Federal Government removed the customs officer from the town of Wrangell in southeast Alaska and this has left the whole border of southeast Alaska and the B.C. boundary unprotected. We have complaints by very responsible game guides that there is a definite abuse by people flying in from southeast Alaska, not so much from the State of Alaska, but from southeast Alaska. As I said, Mr. Speaker, this is an international question. From the correspondence I had with the Federal House, I must say that I had poor response from the Federal House…I had a very good response from the Provincial Government. I will not take the time to read the letters. I will be discussing this further under the estimates or, maybe, in the Minister's office.

The only satisfaction that I got from the Federal House is that their periodic flights, Mr. Speaker, from your city, Mr. Speaker, the city of Prince Rupert, their periodic flights from there, along the border, perhaps, up to Whitehorse and back, are only scheduled flights and, certainly, they don't involve surveillance at all. I'm not too satisfied with the answer that I got from Mr. Cote, the Minister from Ottawa. As a matter of fact, I think I can go as far as to say that I think there has been poor cooperation from the Canadian Customs Division in this respect. I also received letters from the offices in your city, Mr. Speaker, with very vague replies. I think this is not good enough.

We go back to big game. The only reason why people, perhaps, fly over, without going to Customs at Wrangell — and now we have no customs at Wrangell — where would they go? They just fly in across the border … (interruption). I don't think that I should be challenged on the floor of the House to prove my statements. What I am trying to drive at, in this respect, is that I think there should be real cooperation between the Federal Government and the Provincial Government to see that there is a real protection, because, as far as the Province is concerned, it's the big game we have to protect.

There is hardly any protection for conservation of game west of Fort Nelson and west of Watson Lake in the Yukon. Now, I was informed, not too long ago, that this Government had set up a flying game warden centred at Prince George. I am subject to correction by the Minister, but there has been a resolution forwarded to this Government indicating that there is an establishment of a flying game warden in the city of Prince George. Now, there is nothing wrong with that, I think that is good. For one reason, Prince George is the centre of the Province of British Columbia. But this is quite a way from the main boundary of big game in the northwest of this Province, northwest B.C. I am standing in my place here to state my gratification about the establishment of the big game, or the flying game warden, but, also, to plead, not to say that he is removed from Prince George and re-established, say, in the town of Atlin, but to have an additional one established in the town of Atlin. Because here, it is not only setting up a game warden where a game warden is required but also to provide surveillance on the boundaries between southeast Alaska and the Province of British Columbia.

Atlin is a suitable location and so is Prince George. All I'm asking is that there be an additional one.

The third problem I would like to bring to your attention,

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Mr. Speaker, is the question of a new contract for the Stewart-Watson Lake Highway. The Ben Ginter, which is constructing the road southward, contract has been completed and the Peter Kewiet contract going north is also completed. I see, by the estimates, that the Government has again allocated the amount of $2,700,000 towards the construction of the Stewart-Watson Lake Highway. This indicates to me there will be no stoppage towards the completion of this major highway. All I'm asking is that the contracts be let as soon as possible because of our wish to see this road completed.

I am told that there are only 25 miles to go and it's just too bad that we could not complete it in this Centennial Year. I think this would be one of the major news items in the Province of British Columbia and also in the State of Alaska and also the State of Washington, if we could open this road. It has been going on for so long, now, that most people have forgotten that there is such a road under construction.

I think the completion is marked urgent, Mr. Speaker, because, here, in the last few days and in the previous debate, we have been talking about employment. Do you know that there is a lot of companies, a lot of people, who are going north, to establish themselves in business, who are looking forward to completion of this road? It means development, once it is completed. It means logging in the area, it means accessibility, it means cartage along the highways and I said, once before, that once this road is complete it will take 40 per cent of the business away from the Alaska Highway. I think it's about time that this sinks in to all the Members, and they start pleading for this road to be completed. It means services, it means communities, Mr. Speaker, and again it means employment. I think it's most important that this road be considered as urgent in this Centennial Year.

In the previous debate, the Member for Skeena informed the House of the building of a bridge to span the Nass River. Mr. Speaker, you and the Member for Skeena and myself know the meaning of this link. It means that you will link the Stewart-Watson Lake highway to the outside world, outlet to Terrace, down to Prince George, and down through the State of Washington. I think this is one of the greatest developments this year and we are hopeful that this bridge may be completed this year because everyone is looking forward to its completion and, also, to close the 25-mile gap of the Stewart-Cassiar Road. Let's make this a crash programme, Mr. Speaker, let's make it a Centennial project. As I've said before, I've brought this many times to the floor of the House, and I'm still pleading until that road is completed.

Other problems that I have in my constituency I will raise during the consideration of estimates and also on the Order Paper and interviews with the Minister. This is the job of the M.L.A.s and I will be using those avenues to try and solve problems in my riding.

I would like to say something about Federal-Provincial problems of public interest and the first one is the protection of the British Columbia salmon. Don't think for a moment that this is Federal business. I think the Province has almost a 50 per cent part to play in this, if not more, when I say the protection of the B.C. salmon. This is a concern of everyone. It may not be the concern of all Canadians, but I will say it is a definite concern of all British Columbians. In past years we have been talking about pollution, we have been talking about effluent from communities, nearby rivers, takes, we talk about pulp mill effluent, logging debris, mining effluent, and we talk about them when we consider the safety of our rivers, particularly the spawning rivers and lakes. We even talk about the safety of our coast, because the whole coast, one day, may be polluted if this madness doesn't stop. We talk about oil drilling. We talk about river diversions. I think most British Columbians are quite concerned, now, that there are just a minority of people talking about the safety of salmon. I think, in this respect, the Province is very much involved in this question of the protection of the British Columbia salmon. The result of all this, Mr. Speaker, has not only been a public concern but you have several organizations springing up all over the place, now, with ecology and environmental situations and they will always be heard. They will always be heard. The Members here are being heard, in this respect. I think, mainly, this concerns every commercial fisherman, sports fisherman and, especially, a concern of those who rely on salmon, from time immemorial, for their home consumption.

Let me just point out a few of the contributing factors that have sort of dwindled away this whole fishing situation. Let's look at the Federal, first. Their concern is coming rather late, Mr. Speaker — the concern of the commercial fish companies and the Federal Fisheries Department — it is definitely late. They are just now finding that something is up and they are trying to do something about it. Let's look at what they have been neglecting to do in past years, even just before the World War It and immediately afterwards, and during that period. There is no question about it that the Federal Government has had very loose regulations to the extent it even had to loosen up administration. It allowed an overcatch, it allowed freedom to the companies, too much freedom, it allowed overcrowdedness and there was, really, no strictness to the catch quotas. There wasn't too much concern about Pacific fisheries. There wasn't too much concern of the foreign fisheries off our previous three-mile limit.

When they do get together with the other nations, Canada has shown a complete weakness in these negotiation rooms. Now, today they are jumping all over each other to try to solve this whole situation and it has developed into something quite serious. The immediate concern, now, of the commercial fish companies and the Federal Government, is, today, to create new laws and regulations that are now interfering with the very livelihood of people engaged in this industry. We find that there is a decrease of the fishing boundaries all over the coast. We hear now of limitations — and you, yourself, have experienced this, Mr. Speaker, because you have a large amount of fishermen in your riding. I have spent 26 years in this industry myself. We hear of limitations of the number of days that one can fish each week. There are weeks when we only have one day a week. If we're lucky, we get two days in one week to fish commercially. If we're really lucky, we get three days, but, mostly, one day. There are seasonal operations on this coast that only amount to about 18 days and the fishermen are expected to live, and this is their only means of livelihood. All through the summer, when you total the number of days fished, they average about 18 days. This is a terrible situation. We are now faced with strict salmon escapement quotas. We now have limitation of boat licenses. We have company mergers. We have cannery closures. We have lay-off of borderline fishermen. In this respect, Mr. Speaker, I would like to read what happened at the convention from which I just came. You will see what is happening. This may just enlighten you of what's happening with the lay-off of people through the new Davis plan. Let me read you the report of a

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paper from your city, Mr. Speaker, and mine, Prince Rupert. This was dated just a few days ago, February 8. "Canadian Fishing Company has joined B.C. Packers in cutting boats from the salmon fleet. Canfisco manager, Norman Christensen, announced at a meeting of the Nishga Tribal Council in New Aiyansh that 18 gillnetters had been dropped permanently. Twelve of the fishermen affected are Indians. S.K. (Sonny) Nelson, Manager of B.C. Packers, said that his company had dropped 125 gillnet vessels from a fleet of 2,000 operating along the coast. Of the 125 men cut, 64 are Indians, and 21 are in the Nelson Bros. Ltd. operations at Port Edward or at Surmyside Cannery." These were definite statements made by the operators at the convention. I continue, "B.C. Packers is also reducing the fleet of seine boats by 26 with 17 Indian fishermen being affected. Nelson denied that the decision not to fish these boats was made in order to sell the boats to the Government under the terms of fisheries minister Jack Davis "buy–back" plan. 'This move is necessary because of the hard fact of economics. There are too many fishermen after too few fish.' he said. 'Most of these boats are not very good boats and it would cost a lot of money to bring them up to standard. Those operators involved are marginal fishermen, men who have not proved to be responsible in the past and who have worked up large debts with the company. What is the use of sending a man out to fish when you know before he goes that he is not going to make any money. He's just wasting his time.' Nelson pointed out that this year all predictions are for a poor season. 'Last year we packed 1,400,000 cases,' he said. 'Projections for the coming season are for a pack of only 620,000 cases. If we do not operate with maximum efficiency we'll all be in trouble. Only two B.C. Packers operated canneries, will be working this year."' As you know, Mr. Speaker, the Shearwater is closed this year, Namu is closed this year and, last year, they closed Miallard's in North Vancouver. They closed North Pacific Cannery, this is in our area, Sunnyside, Klemtu. This has been a hard hit situation in your particular constituency. "'We have made foolish investments in the past,' he said, referring to the company's policy of loaning money to the fishermen to be paid out of the catch, 'and we're not going to do this anymore.' Cutback of credit to fishermen was a sore point with members of the council, but their main concern was repayment of already outstanding debts to fishing companies owed by those dropped from the fleet. 'It's a difficult problem,' said Nelson, 'when a man hasn't a job we can't collect, but the fisherman, like anyone else, still has an obligation to pay the loan back sometime. We can't just write off large amounts of money because the fisherman hasn't worked out, although we do realize we're not going to get all loaned money back."'

So, here is a picture that now involves a very serious situation all along the coast. We did bring to the attention of the canners that, if there is no way of continuing the operation of a fisherman — and don't forget a great many of these people who are now being put out of the fishing industry are the very ones who participated, or their fathers or their grandfathers participated, in establishing the fishing industry in this Province. They haven't been engaged in any other industry … This is a serious situation but, because of the laxity from away back and then the restrictions of today, they are now caught with many things. High costs, high boat costs, and now a great many of them, and I will say this, Mr. Speaker, and you know a great many of them yourself, a lot of these people who are caught with these high debts and extremely high debts from $5, 10 and 15 thousand, are some of the real bona fide good fishermen. I wouldn't buy what the gentleman said here, that they were all risk fishermen. Sure, there is a good majority of them, but there is also a lot of good fishermen in there. If they are just going to be told, and already letters have been going out and they are told, "Well, just take off," then, why should that same company which said that, or directed that, turn to another industry where this poor guy now has to work and garnishee his wages? I say that if he is put out of the industry, then, I think the company should write off that debt.

Then we have this quality control that we hear about, and I'm still talking about restrictions they are taking off all rental boats. Who is going to be hard hit, Mr. Speaker, when they knock off this summer the rental boats and create unemployment? We are still relating this to unemployment, and the laxity from way back. Now we are caught with this laxity.

The Skeena fishermen, the Nass River fishermen, your fishermen, Mr. Speaker, because the majority of them are the ones that rent boats but now they are going to be cut off from that, they are going to be cut off from all operating credit and so forth. So what is left of the fishing industry? It appears to me that they are, now, with the very few that they are going to retain … this whole policy, I think, only means the survival of the fittest. Those who, like I have stated, pioneered the fishing industry are now out and are part of the unemployed. Only the professional fishermen will remain. This whole question, that relates to unemployment, is a serious question and I think we should be doing something about it. This, I think, is where the Minister of Rehabilitation comes in, because I was quite happy the other day when he did talk about the retraining programmes. If there is anyone that requires that retraining now, it's fishermen. Because they are now finding themselves out in the cold, they have to get into some other industry. I'm only hopeful that, once they are retrained, they will go to work and that there is nothing in the way of barring them from entering any other industry.

This whole situation, Mr. Speaker, only means to me the relegation of the fishing industry to the very bottom of our Provincial industry. At the rate things are going now, I don't think the industry is going to last too long. So there is my hit towards the Federal Government. But I am not going to leave the Provincial Government alone. There is a certain amount of lack of concern of the B.C. Government towards the conservation of salmon. The Government doesn't appear to me,, or to anybody else … we know it is a fact that this Government is more concerned with the development of other industries, and many people claim this is playing havoc with the very survival of salmon on this very coast.

We all support development in this Province, Mr. Speaker. We are supposed to be responsible people, particularly if we are representatives of the people, and we all are, here. I don't think anyone here is going to come out and condemn the actual development. We like to see development but I think this Government should set guidelines by which these havocs that may create the loss of fish have to be prevented. Mr. Speaker, take a look at this little fish. I wonder if the Members here ever consider the struggle of the poor fish for survival. Take, for instance, the Trudeau fish going up the river and the Bennett logging slash coming down the river. Have you ever considered the Trudeau fish going up the river and — the Bennett logging debris coming down the river? The Trudeau fish going up the river and the Bennett and everyone else's effluent coming down the river. Have you ever

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considered the Trudeau fingerlings coming down the river and then hitting against the proposed Moran Dam on the Fraser? This question of the Moran Dam is not over yet. What I am trying to point out is that the poor fish haven't got a monkey's chance in this lopsided two-way traffic.

I picked up the Province before Christmas. It is dated December 18, and I am very happy to welcome the statement of the Premier. Let me read a few excerpts from this. "Premier Bennett says the cheapest cleanest power in B.C. could be produced by the construction of the proposed Moran Dam on the Fraser River — but he insists, it won't be built if it will destroy the river's salmon fishery." That's a good statement. "His comments," and I am only picking out excerpts, Mr. Speaker. "His comments Thursday about the cheapness of the power and its pollution-free value, however, appeared to be an indication that he is shifting his approach as B.C.'s electricity needs rapidly rise. He confirmed the statement two months ago by B.C. Hydro Chairman Dr. Gordon Shrum that the Moran proposal will be included in a B.C. Energy Board study of B.C. power needs for the next 15 years. The Board said Bennett has been told to get "advice from experts any place in the world" about the Moran fish problem and the entire power-need study. 'Before we can do anything on the Moran Dam,' he said, 'the number one problem must be solved, the problem of the fish. We don't want to lose a great resource of food. It is a very important industry to us.' The Moran proposal was renewed, after being dormant for some 15 years, during the 1970 Session of the Legislature last March by Evan Wolfe (SC — Vancouver Centre). He urged construction of the dam for the cheap power it would provide. It could be built at a cost of $1.2 billion and would produce 7.5 million kilowatts of electricity — the cheapest power in Canada at 1.6 mills per kilowatt hour, he said. His proposal was bitterly opposed by George Mussallem (SC — Dewdney). 'Hands off the Fraser,' said Mussallem. 'You might get the fish up the ladders, but there's no way you can get them down through those turbines, because then they're dead fish."' A very good statement, Mr. Member. "Bennett said Thursday the Energy Board has been commissioned to investigate all methods of developing hydro electricity 'because it's the most pollution-free.' 'It is very important that this river become pollution-free' Bennett said. 'Our great job is to open up the province and create jobs and still control pollution and keep it at an absolute. minimum. Yes, great efforts will be taken to see that that comes about. It will be done by the Pollution Control Branch and Board" he said. 'Technical questions raised by the report, such as the proposal that all sewage disposal into the Fraser be given secondary treatment by 1975, will be examined by the Pollution Control Experts,' he said."

Well, those are all good statements. Another statement here: "Chamber of Commerce Favours Fraser-Moran Project, Bennett favours Fraser River Dam." But they are not giving statements that I welcome.

Let's look at the Bennett Dam. We are told that surveys were right up to date. They had every type of study to prove there would be no results or damaging effects after the completion of that dam. But then we hear criticism from Alberta. We are hearing criticisms from the Indian Affairs Branch and elsewhere over the results of the Bennett Dam. There was no second look, at all. There was no second look. We may still be faced with a Court action. This is not over yet. So even though I welcome these beautiful statements, I'm still afraid of the Bennett second look.

I am going to say this, Mr. Speaker, that if this B.C. Energy Board were to come across with a very favourable report, there is nothing to stop the Premier and this Government from taking a second look and perhaps going ahead with the Moran Dam. This is what has given me a lot of fear. It could easily happen. I am quite sincere about this. I fear if this Energy Board comes out with any favourable reports … I don't think, if there is a real need of power and how we need it in this Province … if they show that need, the Province goes ahead with the Moran Dam and I'm quite sure this will be write-off of the fishing industry in this Province. The Fraser River is the heart of the whole fishing situation in this Province and you will have taken out the heart of the fishing here in British Columbia.

I think the only way to solve this whole problem, Mr. Speaker, is a very close consultation between the Federal and the Provincial Governments. The Province, no doubt, under the new Constitution which we are going to be studying perhaps in our day — it won't be too long before we see the final writing of the new constitution — I'm quite sure there will be a close relationship between the Province and the Federal Government, all along, from coast to coast. I am hopeful for that because of the consultations will just have to deal with the safety of salmon and industries which are lacking, in this Province. I am hopeful that under the new Constitution we may have more Provincial jurisdiction over fisheries but this remains to be seen.

I stand here, today, to plead that the Government consider the protection of our B.C. salmon, because the Province is definitely involved on the account of other industries at which we now point our finger as being the destroyer of the salmon in this Province.

Mr. Speaker, I would just like to end up by talking about Mr. Alan Fry. We have heard quite a bit about his book, Mr. Speaker. I happen to know this gentleman. He is one of the hardworking superintendents of the Province … of Indian Affairs. His book, called How A People Die, has created quite a lot of criticism in the Province and throughout the country. I have read the book and I have read the criticisms in the newspapers. I have heard a few comments from radio and television. I am just about in between. I haven't offered any criticism of this book. Let me read what an Indian pamphlet says about this. It says, "Alan Fry is the superintendent of the North Island Agency. He has been employed by the Department of Indian Affairs for 15 years. Areas he has worked in include Hazelton, Yukon and Alert Bay." My own comment, I first met Mr. Fry in Whitehorse. "He has recently put out a book entitled How A People Die. Now, this book is listed as being fiction. There are too many parallels between the fictitious Indian village in it and a village on the Island where a band was relocated within the last ten years. Some of the points that Fry seems to point out in the book are: Indian people cannot help themselves, possibly, because of genetic and cultural factors. Indian homes are filled with stench and filth. Indian women are stupid and ignorant of the sex act, hence, because of their ignorance, they tend to be morally loose. Indian women neglect their children. Indian people are irresponsible. Indian people have no pride. Indian Affairs officials are so sensitive to Indians' needs that they face an agonizing dilemma in helping the Indians. The general condition of the Indian people is that of a drunken stupor." Here are some quotations, Mr. Speaker. "How can a police officer enforce a law among people who cannot appreciate its values or understand its complexities'? How can an Indian agent help a people build a better life if they refuse to take on the most elementary steps to help themselves"" He ends

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the book with this quote, referring to an able-bodied young man asking for assistance. "You, you poor bastard, never had any to start with. You are 19 and you are dead already, in reference to pride." Now, these quotations have been quoted many times by columnists and other reporters in papers and I don't think the criticisms are going to die yet. I am rather amazed that the Indians, themselves, have come out and condemned this.

Many a time I stand on my feet here, Mr. Speaker, and I talk about the whole reserve system. It's a little over 100 years now that the Indian people have been living under the reserve system. Many a time, since I have been a Member of this House, I have brought to your attention the damning results of this whole reserve system. I have mentioned, many a time on the floor of this House here, one of the conditions created by the reserve system is the taking away of the Indians' initiative, making him dependent. This is what the reserve system breeds, making an Indian a member of the tribe of the inferiority complex people. You know, all that this chap is trying to tell us is the end results of these things of the whole system. We don't have too many of these people coming out and stating things like this, especially when he still is in office. I hear quite a lot of comments from Indian Affairs offices throughout the country, pleading that something be done for the Indians, only after they retire from office. But, here, along comes this chap and he blasts … I'm not going to commend him on his statements but I'll commend his whole … that, while he is in office, he dares to come out with something that could have slapped him down immediately after he made these statements. I'm not going to enlarge too much on this, Mr. Speaker. All I wanted to point out is that these are some of the things, now, that are coming out and they will continue to come out because of this whole system. Why in the devil do you think that, when I first came into this House, I asked that the reserve system be abolished from the whole of Canada? Do you know my only defense might condemn me. If I ever write a book, I'm not just going to hit the natives but I am going to hit the people responsible. It works both ways and it will make this guy's book look like peanuts. But, you know me. I'm just a nice little fellow! I don't go around making statements that would hurt anyone's feelings.

These are very serious charges, to me, and to many of the native leaders. We know a lot of this that he has brought out, but we don't dare say anything about it. We are going the other way. We are fighting to do something so that Indians can be taken out from where they are so that they can walk with you. We know a lot of this exists. I'm not saying that I'm supporting every statement the man makes, but there is a lot there that he dares to come out with. These, now, are surprising society. They are stunned over this. Boy, you live one year on the reserves and you are liable to support this man on many aspects on which he speaks. Like I say, there is many an Indian leader who would take a good look at this. All I can urge at this time … and it still is a reserve business but, then, we are trying to do something under the Provincial basis to try and help the Indian development, the community … economic development to help him take his place. So, I feel it is quite safe for me to bring up this matter. But there are such serious charges that I think at this time I am going to use this forum to urge the Federal Government to set up a Royal Commission and that Mr. Fry and any other member of the Indian Affairs Branch, or even Indian organizations, come forward to that Commission for a whole study of this whole question. I am going to tell you — this is going to involve the whole reserve situation. It's a gigantic thing. If they ever open up that Royal Commission, I am just afraid that you are going to see something that's even bigger than anybody ever thought of. The only thing that really scares me is that, if that Royal Commission makes its report, they will find that many things that this man says are true. This is all that I have to contribute at this time, Mr. Speaker. Other matters I have, I will bring up before the estimates. Thank you.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable First Member for Vancouver-Burrard.

MR. H. J. MERILEES (Vancouver-Burrard): Mr. Speaker, it is an honour to once again rise in this House, today, representing the great constituency of Vancouver-Burrard, to speak on the Budget Debate. The Budget, as presented by the Honourable Minister of Finance, Mr. Speaker, is a good Budget. It is a sound Budget and, as one has come to expect from British Columbia's Premier and Minister of Finance, it's a balanced Budget. Even in this day of Women's Lib I think even the most ardent proponent would acknowledge that British Columbia's Minister of Finance is, by all odds, the best housekeeper in Canada, which is more than I can say for the Leader of the Liberal Party. Talking of housekeepers and listening to that. Member's budget, reminds me of a television programme of another male housewife called the "Galloping Gourmet." He galloped from hither to yon — bankruptcy.

Undoubtedly, this $1,300,692,600 Budget will create many new jobs but, equally important, Mr. Speaker, and something that I think many of us forget when we talk about new jobs and such a Budget, in addition, this Budget will guarantee the continuity of thousands of jobs that would have gone down the drain.

Rational, well-informed people, Mr. Speaker, know full well that no Provincial Government can exercise absolute control over employment or unemployment. A Provincial Government can play its part, and this Budget guarantees that British Columbia is, certainly, playing its part in the total effort to create new jobs. Further, Mr. Speaker, I venture to predict that, by the time this House rises, there will be a very drastic drop in the number of employable British Columbians who lack work and wages.

Mr. Speaker, in this debate, I will not discuss tourism and the travel industry at any length. Suffice to say, that, after a considerable career as a professional in the tourist industry, I report with the deepest regret that tourism, a $450 million British Columbia bonanza, has yet to be treated with the adult, businesslike approach warranted by a truly great, major industry.

The tax that has been placed on the hotel rooms, now, should provide a greater opportunity to assist us in devoting the time and effort needed for research in that direction.

Similarly, Mr. Speaker, during the Budget Debate, I will not discuss youth hostels or needed summer employment for students which was so ably dealt with by the honourable Member across the way, but I will have some constructive suggestions to make about this during the estimates.

The Honourable Member from Atlin who just spoke prompts me to digress for just a moment, in that regard, when he was discussing the threat to the fishing in some of our major rivers.

It has long been a private theory of mine that our major rivers, from a standpoint of production of fish, are overrated, or, maybe, in reverse … can we put it this way, that many of

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our secondary streams are underrated? There are hundreds and hundreds of very valuable fish-producing streams along some 14,000 miles of British Columbia coastline, both on the mainland and on the Island. I happen to be familiar with one stream, the Salmon River, which empties into Salmon Bay, in the Sayward area. Many years ago, that river supported a fantastic salmon population. It's a secondary river, not a great river but, nevertheless, an important one. It supported two distinct tribes, or runs, of Spring, now called Chinook or King salmon, or Tyees, two distinct tribes or runs. There was a very heavy run of Cohoe. There was a fantastic run of Humpbacks or Pinks. There were even Dog salmon in the fall. There was a heavy run of Steelheads, which is one of the only things that survives in the Salmon River, today, and sea run, Dolly Varden run and excellent Cutthroat trout fishing. Today, that river has been practically decimated and, if you count what used to be a school of salmon going up that river, today, you'd count them on the fingers of your hands. In those days, you'd count them by the minutes it took them to pass under the bridge like a fleet. It is a disgrace and these rivers, such — as the Salmon, require much greater protection. The Campbell River complex … and when they dammed to provide extra waters for the John Hart development, they dammed the headwaters of the Salmon River and they were not too careful as to when they would spill and when they would hold and, naturally, they are holding in the hot, dry period and the hot, dry periods are when the fish are trying to get up to spawn. As one of the oldtimers said, up there, Mr. Speaker, at this particular stage, in late August and early September, when the Cohoe were trying to get up the river, he said, they left nothing behind them but a trail of dust.

I think there is great room for employment here, not a vast number, but a chance to interest our young. people in the ecology of our coast and our rivers and our fishing industry. I think there is a great opportunity for patrolling these rivers, because in that particular river, and I think many others, patrols to prevent depredation by lawbreakers is practically nonexistent. I ran across a fish warden a few years ago and he was circling a reef at the south end of Helmcken Island, five miles across from the mouth of the river, he had a 16 ft. aluminum boat with an outboard! This man was supposed to be patrolling the whole of Salmon Bay and the tidal waters of the Salmon River, which is patently ridiculous (interruption).

What killed the run, the honourable Member wants to know? Yes. Humanity is the answer. But what phase of humanity I cannot tell you, because there are so many facets to it. Obviously, overfishing in the early days, with heavy seining, the destruction by dynamite by unemployed loggers in pools, too lazy to fish, pesticides, obviously, some used by various branches of forest industry and Government without regard, in those days … I am glad to say that aspect of it is being co-ordinated and ended. Nobody can put their finger on it. You cannot prove any one of these things because the thing that has been lacking has been the supervision of that river by knowledgeable biologists to tell us what has happened and what should be done to bring them back. The Honourable Jack Davis has appealed to them and he has been promised cooperation, in cooperation with our own Department of Fisheries, to examine that particular river, but that is only one river. There are hundreds of secondary rivers that, in the aggregate, become, maybe, almost as important as the Fraser or the Skeena or whatever it is.

But I make a case here for the employment and interest of our younger unemployed, during the summer season, when the fishing season is on and, possibly, a programme could be worked out on a cooperative basis between Ottawa and Victoria in that area. Not a spectacular answer to unemployment, Mr. Speaker, but certainly a constructive step forward on both fronts, the ecological front and the employment front  (interruption). I'll leave the Skagit Valley to you, Mr.

I will not discuss further at this time dialogue that has been set up with the Majority Leader of our neighbouring Legislature in the State of Washington with regard to action on the subject of pollution. You may have read in Friday's Sun of the Honourable Stewart Bledsoe's interview and his willingness to cooperate with this Province and join forces with us to put up the best possible fight we can against those things that threaten the coastline of Vancouver Island and the Strait of Juan de Fuca and the Gulf of Georgia. This dialogue, Mr. Speaker, now promises to extend over the full length of the Pacific Coast of North America, because the Mexicans are now in and expressing an interest in joining with us. Representatives from the State of Alaska Legislature, Oregon State, California, and as I said, Mexico, they are ready and willing to enter into dialogue. I'm delighted to know that the Honourable Minister of Recreation and Conservation and the Honourable Minister of Lands, Forests, and Water Resources have both indicated their willingness to join in this dialogue, which, I hope, will take place after the House rises. Meetings will be held very shortly and I think British Columbia should be in attendance.

The question of the vital need for a Lower Mainland Transit Authority and a new bridge across Burrard Inlet, I will discuss during the estimates. Finally, during the estimates, Mr. Speaker, I will bring forward further information and suggestions with regard to a continuing programme of highway landscaping and beautification.

The subject that I do wish to discuss during this debate, Mr. Speaker, is the future of Canada's third city — Vancouver — of which I have the honour to be a native son and one of two representatives from Vancouver-Burrard. Vancouver-Burrard, as I said in my reply to the Throne Speech, forms a belt line across the dynamic core of the fastest growing metropolitan area in this nation.

Greater Vancouver, Mr. Speaker, is a city of destiny in the truest sense of the word. As Van Horne said, when he stood in the forests, near Victory Square, now Cambie and Cordova Streets, when Vancouver's surveys first commenced, said to Hamilton of the CPR, "Hamilton, some day here will be one of the nation's greatest cities, probably, its greatest." Van Horne's predictions have long since come true, but we have progressed much farther. The lower mainland area of which the city of Vancouver is the core, has become not only a National and Provincial metropolis, it has also, in the process, become a problem. Our Premier is quite right when he states that British Columbia has become a Mecca for easterners and people anxious only for the better way of life that offers itself west of the Rockies. It is also true to state, Mr. Speaker, that a corollary of this phenomenon is the fact that Greater Vancouver bears the brunt of the overload of this country's migration. As a Province, we welcome industrious newcomers and, as a city, Vancouver welcomes them, but, Mr. Speaker, if British Columbia deserves Federal assistance to cope with its overload, then it is obvious that Vancouver needs both Federal and Provincial assistance. Vancouver needs leadership, not cheap advice. Our senior Governments, Mr. Speaker, should act like senior Governments. It does no good to have a request by the mayor of the city of Vancouver ridiculed, either by Ottawa or Victoria. It does no good to have a

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positive statement offered by a British Columbia Cabinet Minister in good faith, supporting a great need by Vancouver, to be contradicted and discredited by a Cabinet Minister in Ottawa or vice versa.

Mr. Speaker, we had a classic example of this very recently. I am sorry, Mr. Member, the example has to be quoted in this context. When the Lower Mainland Rapid Transit Report was released, the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs stated very quickly that the Province of British Columbia would put up its required 37 ½ per cent share, well in excess of $100 million. Immediately, almost as though you had pressed a button, from the wrong Minister in Ottawa, a Cabinet Minister, supposedly representing the citizens of Vancouver, came a gratuitous announcement that Ottawa would have no part of such a scheme, nothing to do with it, no responsibility for anything to do with rapid transit or mass transit for the good of the city of Vancouver which he represents. One wonders, Mr. Speaker, what happens to some of these people when they cross the Rocky Mountains and pass through the portals of the Peace Tower on Parliament Hill in Ottawa. I really don't know, Mr. Speaker. I've been there, many of you have been there, and the air is not that rare. But something seems to happen.

Greater Vancouver can do without being the feather plug in this continuing game of shuttlecock and battledore. For the information of the uninformed, Mr. Speaker, shuttlecock and battledore was a game dreamed up by British calvary officers in India to relieve boredom between riots in the Khyber Pass. Today, it goes under the polite name of badminton, and the two great exponents in this House are the Honourable Members from Vancouver–Point Grey and Vancouver East. They well know the game of badminton and how it is played. In politics, they call it "passing the buck!" (Interruption.) They haven't got a bat in hand, though. Tiddlywinks is your game, Mr. Member.

Canada and British Columbia — now listen carefully — need a new bridge across Burrard Inlet, Mr. Speaker. Canada and British Columbia need this new bridge more than the citizens of Vancouver need it. People generally think of Vancouver in terms of a million people. This is just not so. Vancouver city proper is the core of a metropolitan population, well in excess of a million, but the city core population is just under half a million. The Greater Vancouver-lower mainland area is of inestimable strategic value to the whole of the Dominion of Canada and to British Columbia, Mr. Speaker. The usable land area is so limited, so strategic and so valuable that I repeat, Mr. Speaker, a new bridge across Burrard Inlet is most certainly more of a Federal and Provincial necessity than it is a necessity to the citizens of Vancouver.

AN HON. MEMBER: Tunnel be all right? Tunnel or bridge?

MR. MERILEES: I'm coming to that and you can crawl in the tunnel.

You will notice, Mr. Speaker and honourable Members, that I refer to the construction of a new bridge, not a tunnel. For two reasons: one, which is important, the bridge will be cheaper. It will be a soaring, excitingly beautiful attraction that will rival anything spanning any harbour in the world. Secondly, Mr. Speaker, whoever took a picture of a tunnel? Answer me.

Rapid transit, which is part of a total mass transit problem — we will discuss that later. The Honourable Member from Vancouver Centre will be bringing that up. Half a million people just cannot possibly swing a multimillion dollar bridge, a multimillion dollar rapid transit system, a multimillion dollar waterfront development, on top of extraordinary expansion of other developments and service costs in Canada's fastest growing urban complex. It's just not possible and just not fair. Mr. Speaker, there should be, there must be, a Federal Provincial and municipal master plan for the efficient development of the whole Greater Vancouver-lower mainland area. If we don't do this soon, almost now, a hundred years from now when we are celebrating another Centennial, people are going to look back and wonder what was wrong with us. Such a plan is vital to the National interest, not just Vancouver. Don't talk just Vancouver or British Columbia, it is National as well as Provincial as well as municipal. There just has to be an end to buck-passing, telegrams, insults, refusals and ridicule.

I am very happy to make this announcement, Mr. Speaker and the Members, that, today, the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs has given his undertaking that, as soon as is mutually convenient, following the conclusion of this Legislature, he will issue invitations and convene a meeting in Vancouver. These invitations will be issued to the Honourable Robert Andras and other interested Ministers and their advisors, in Ottawa, as well as members from the Greater Vancouver Regional District and the mayors of the cities and municipalities within the Regional District, to discuss on the broadest possible basis cooperative plans, instead of shuttlecock and battledore, for the development of Vancouver.

This meeting, which the Honourable Minister had pledged to convene, will take place some time during the month of May. In this matter, Mr. Speaker and Members of the Legislature, I should like to convey my sincere appreciation to the Honourable the Minister.

Now, to an immediate problem, Mr. Speaker. As you will remember, our Premier suggested to the city of Vancouver that it install higher street lighting intensities to discourage crime of all types and to make heavily travelled metropolitan streets safer for both vehicular and pedestrian traffic. There is no question, Mr. Speaker, that this is a most constructive and valuable suggestion. The Chief Constable of Vancouver, John Fisk, strongly supports higher lighting intensities. Chief Fisk and his staff have studied the effect of lighting intensities as they assist in cutting crime. I quote from a letter written by the Chief Constable. "In this regard, you might be interested in the following article appearing in the Seattle Municipal News with respect to the effect of improved lighting on the crime pattern:

Documentation of crime rates before and after the installation of lights leaves much to be desired; however, where data are recorded, the results following lighting campaigns often have been dramatic. Here is a sampling from the files of the Street and Highway Safety Lighting Bureau in Cleveland. In some areas of Indianapolis, crime dropped 85 per cent after adequate lighting was installed. A former Detroit Police Commissioner reported that street crimes have been reduced as much as 55 per cent in improved areas. Gary, Indiana, installed 5,000 new street lights. Criminal assaults dropped 70 per cent and robberies 60 per cent. When relighting was one-third completed in Cleveland, the assaults dropped by one-third, in equal proportion. In the first four months after 144 blocks in St. Louis received new lights, street crimes dropped 15.9 per cent. In New York City, an area of 111 blocks was relighted. In the subsequent two

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years, the incidence of murder, assault, and rape dropped 49 per cent. Chicago installed 51,000 luminaires in 2,200 miles of alleys in the winter of 1965-66. Carefully documented police records show that the number of serious crimes reported in alleys during the hours of darkness was 30.4 per cent less. In a survey of 1,300 police officers throughout the nation, 85 per cent reported a drop in crime rates when lighting was improved. After good lighting, 42 per cent of the officials reported a 50 per cent drop; 30 per cent of the officers reported a 25 per cent crime rate cut; 19 per cent said crime had dropped 10 per cent." Now, these are rather interesting figures, Mr. Speaker. And the final statistic, in case you are not too bored, "Milwaukee may be known as the beer capital of the world, but its alley lighting programme justifies another claim to fame. Once the city got its first taste of these lights, it thirsted for more. And, in six months time, 5,000 new lights had been installed. The first alley lights to be installed were 2,500 lumen incandescents; however, this one-by-one installation was never contemplated to completely cover the city. As aldermen started to receive phone calls praising the new lights, more were installed. Public demand grew and grew and grew."

In addition to this telling evidence, Mr. Speaker, our Premier discovered in Los Angeles, that, in the troubled Watts area and other difficult areas in Los Angeles, higher street lighting intensities brought startling results. The aim — the rapid drop in crime rate — was most rewarding. This programme was brought about by cooperative action between citizens, the municipality and the State, in which business firms and citizens declared themselves prepared to share with the State the increased costs on a local improvement basis. One of the important factors in providing higher lighting intensities is, of course, the cost of energy.

Historically, in British Columbia, electric rates have been structured to encourage heavy industry. This goes back to the beginnings of the electric utility business. They were structured to encourage, first of all, heavy and, later, lighter industry. This made nothing but sense in an economy that was based on hewers of wood and drawers of water. This policy, Mr. Speaker, still makes sense. Lower electric rates help industry to compete in world markets and this, in turn, means steady, gainful employment for hundreds of thousands of British Columbians. So, if you complain about lower industrial electric rates, think twice before you complain too loudly, because it is guaranteeing jobs.

But, now, Mr. Speaker, a new era is with us. Population growth and technological changes, such as the automobile, have rushed upon us. People's living habits and the growth of crime force us to examine everything we do, including the lighting of our streets, in a completely different manner and approach. This has to include, of course, Mr. Speaker, the cost. The city of Vancouver has a street lighting bill payable to B.C. Hydro in excess of $680,000 per year. The average overhead street lighting unit draws 300 to 400 watts. Vancouver's city electrician has done a survey and recommends that, to make Vancouver a safer place and a more enjoyable place to walk, drive and live, requires considerably increased lighting intensities on presently lighted streets, which mean many more fixtures. In addition, he strongly urges, with full police support, a special programme of lighting with a minimum of 5,000 new lighting units to be placed in lanes and alleys.

In Vancouver-Burrard alone, represented by my colleague, the Honourable Second Member and myself, there are many trouble spots. On West 7th Avenue, and in other areas between Broadway and the shores of False Creek, there are definite danger areas. Many citizens are afraid to leave their homes after dark. One business woman who lives on 7th Avenue and owns a store on Broadway, three short blocks away, Mr. Speaker, due to the darkness and close presence of known potentially-dangerous individuals, is put in the position, and to the daily expense, Mr. Speaker, of having to hire a taxicab to and from her place of business and her home.

Mr. Speaker, let us correct these situations and let us light up our streets so that we do not find in our larger centres that conditions deteriorate to the point that exists now in many American cities where, not only women and children, but also grown men dare not venture forth after dark for fear of muggings, rapes or what have you.

There are many more in the areas represented by the Honourable Members from Vancouver Centre and Vancouver East. The lighting intensities recommended by the city electrician would increase payments to the B.C. Hydro by over $150,000 per year. I'm working up to a point, Mr. Minister — the two Ministers who represent B.C. Hydro — over $150,000 a year. The capital costs to the city and the taxpayers of Vancouver would exceed over $4 million. In addition to this, Mr. Speaker, the 5,000 units proposed to light up lanes, which are a very vulnerable part of our pattern for vandalism and muggings, as we all know, and are stepping up, would require the city to pay an additional nuisance charge to the B.C. Hydro of 35 cents a pole per month for the privilege of hanging a fixture on a pole that is already standing there doing nothing.

Mr. Speaker, here is information I have received from our city engineering department. "The following is information on our present plant: city owned lights at present, $30,926; estimated replacement value, $16 million; cost of maintenance, $470,000; electricity, $646,000; leasing of lights from Hydro, another $12,000.

Although the city has lighted over 90 per cent of its streets to the minimum levels," which are too low, really, "recommended by the Canadian Standards Association, or better, the following upgrading is considered a vital necessity and forms the basis for the city's continuing Capital Street Lighting Programme. To install lighting on streets, not lighted, 1,000, 40 miles, capital cost, $520,000, and the cost of electricity, $13,000." It goes on "… to replace obsolete, incandescent, 1,000; replace incandescents in residential areas, 5,000; replace incandescents in thoroughfares, 3,000; up-grade mercury vapour lighting, 3,500;" and there are more statistics to install the lane lighting, I told you about, 5,000. The total increase in the electric bill to handle this, $135,400 and these figures are rough estimates based on the dollar value as it stood in 1970.

In 1963, which is the last year for which I was able to get figures, anyway, the street lighting rate for the city of Vancouver and other comparable cities in Canada was as follows: in Vancouver, per kilowatt hour 1.364; Edmonton, 1.194; London, Ontario, 1.025; Regina, 1.015. The present rate for street light electricity in Vancouver is 1.5 cents per kwh. The Winnipeg rate, data obtained in the 1969 report, was calculated to be 0.686 cents per kwh.

So, I respectfully request, through the Honourable Ministers represented on the board of B.C. Hydro, that they examine the street lighting rate in the interests of the certain saving of human lives, to say nothing of the removal of the fear of pedestrians on our streets, and to cut down on property losses and expensive traffic accidents. A reduction in street lighting rates would encourage our city to step up its

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lighting and do a better job. It would mean much to bus citizens and to our city and, in the end, could make Greater Vancouver an even brighter jewel, Mr. Speaker, in the crown that is British Columbia.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Skeena.

MR. D.G. LITTLE (Skeena): Mr. Speaker, many remarks have been made in the House, both responsible, and otherwise, during this Session. I want to commend the NDP Member for Atlin for behaving like a true northerner and taking his place in the House and telling the truth regarding what goes on behind the scenes in the NDP Party. They disassociated themselves from him. It was too hot in the kitchen.

We, at times, make reference to the different leaders that they have in the NDP Party and we know, of course, we have several. But, Mr. Speaker, it is very obvious who cracks the whip. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, you dare not cross this man. The man who actually leads the Party, and I understand is now helping them write their speeches, is none other than Ray Haynes, the secretary of the B.C. Federation of Labour. You can well understand the reason, Mr. Speaker, when he tells them right outright, and it has been practiced, "Either do as I say, or we'll cut off your campaign funds."

Now, Mr. Speaker, I have a letter that I received from the north and it is not from a political friend. It tells about things and how they are in Terrace. He said, "The Chamber of Commerce had their annual meeting on Friday night with the Honourable Arthur Laing as guest speaker. His speech can only be described as dreadful. Forty minutes of the history of British Columbia without a quip, anecdote or flash of humour amongst them. If the Liberals cannot do better than that, then your Government is safe in Victoria, but God help us in Ottawa, " he said.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to have spoken directly on conservation but the Minister isn't there, so, perhaps, I can come back to that, and on Education but that Minister isn't here, either. Maybe, this could be a real short speech … I'll speak to the listeners in, Mr. Speaker, because you know there is always someone there listening.

What I'd like to say, now, is that I am very happy, this year, that the Department of Recreation and Conservation has been provided with money in order to be able to look after the many commitments that have been neglected for years. I would like to point out that at Lakelse Lake we have a beautiful beach. When we had the slide there, a few years back — Alcan, the Aluminum Co. of Canada, had a beautiful beach on Lakelse Lake they had bought when they first came north, for their employees — and they decided, because of this disaster, to donate their beach to the Government. This has finally been accepted and taken in as a park by the Recreation and Conservation Department. But, that is all that has been done, Mr. Speaker, in all these years. There is only half a mile of road needed to get to this beach. We have an overnight campsite at Terrace which accommodates, at the present time, some 60 vehicles, with barbecue grills and tables. They plan on developing this. This will go up to a hundred. I think the plan is 90-some spots there. This had to be located at another area from where the swimming beach was for the bathers. Some of these beaches become crowded out with people, Mr. Speaker, because Lakelse Lake just happens to be the only lake in the area that has to serve the 10,500 people in Kitimat, the 13,500 people in Prince Rupert and the 14,000 people in Terrace. I would urge the Government this year to make a move and, for Heaven's sakes, to put in this half a mile of road so that we can find somewhere, at least, for the people where they can park their cars and enjoy bathing on a Sunday. It is not possible at the present time, because there isn't even room to park.

There is one point that I would like to bring to the attention of the Minister of Recreation and Conservation and that is the debt of gratitude that every citizen in B.C. owes to a family. I wonder if he, by any chance, thinks that he has members in his department who are the top conservationists in B.C. We have people, acting independently, who have done more for B.C. than anyone within his department. Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak, now, of the Edwards family who lives on Lonesome Lake. The original settler, Mr. Edwards, fed and looked after the last large flock of trumpeter swans on this continent. Then, later, his daughter, who grew up beside the lake, married Jack Turner and she and her husband have carried on this wonderful family tradition of caring for these beautiful birds. The flock has steadily increased and now stands at 380.

AN HON. MEMBER: Where is Lonesome Lake?

MR. LITTLE: Up the coast, inland, approximately at the north end of Vancouver Island. Only accessible by air or you can get in from the Chilcotin area. It's on the mainland. It seems unbelievable that these people have had to pack in 18,000 lbs. of grain to feed these birds during winter. It is hard to realize that we have a Department of Conservation and Recreation and the Government have planes that are not being used and still these people have to pack grain in to feed the last flock of trumpeter swans in B.C. I would urge the Government to take immediate action here to fly this feed in, because, right at this present moment, they are out of grain there and need help to get grain in. This should either be done from planes by the B.C. Government or, probably, it would take, at the moment, Federal helicopters because, in all likelihood, the ice wouldn't be safe to land on with skis. The liquid would be frozen, so helicopters would have to be the answer.

Mr. Speaker, I have a proposal and I don't think it is unreasonable, because this family is going to have to leave Lonesome Lake unless they find a way to educate their daughter. They have a daughter who is now a teenager and they feel that she should relocate in order that she could receive a proper education. I am going to suggest to the Department of Recreation and Conservation that this man, Jack Turner, be sworn in as a conservation officer, at least, during the winter months when he is doing this work in preserving the swans for posterity. This would provide the means for Mr. and Mrs. Turner to send their daughter out to school. It would also give them proper compensation for the dedication and humane service they have rendered in helping save these birds from extinction. I feel very strongly about this, Mr. Speaker, and hope that the Minister will have a statement to make in this House before his estimates come to the Floor.

Mr. Speaker, I have another matter which bothers me very much, I have two children that need help in Kitimat. Because one was a normal case, there was no problem in really placing this child. There was a waiting period, which we all expect but; eventually, the child was properly placed. The other child was a child born with multiple physical damage, because she was a German measles child. She has braces on

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her legs, wears heavy glasses, she is deaf and, as a result, is mute. This child is intelligent and could be educated, but there is no place in our educational system, or in an institution, that seems to be able to help. After eight months I was advised by the Minister of Education that they had been unable to find a place for this child, the reason being, that because the child had suffered multiple damage, they do not have a proper place for her.

Mr. Speaker, it makes you wonder when you see a headline like this, in which it states, "B.C. Limits Lottery Prizes." Then it says that a $5,000 limit is going to be placed by the Provincial Cabinet on the total value of prizes in any Government licensed lottery. I could go on and explain here, but this has seriously hurt the PNE in Vancouver. It has also hurt a project, which would be the replica of the discovery which did all the mapping on the first trip, to do extensive mapping on our coast. This would have been such a wonderful, worthwhile Centennial project that I don't see how anyone could argue against it. Also, it is well known that what they call the illegal sweepstake, which is the city of Montreal, netted that city $10 million. I think that if Government isn't able and can't afford to place children like this, then, what in the world would be wrong with letting one of our service clubs, if they didn't want to do it themselves, or someone with a properly supervised sweep, which could finance cases such as this? I notice that, in reading the report from the Racing Commission, we issue licenses and collect taxes, there, that go into the Government funds to the extent of some $46,000. If we are willing to do this on a race track, then, I don't see why we shouldn't be willing to participate in a sweepstake. It's all gambling. I know, Mr. Speaker, if this were put to a vote that the people in the Skeena riding, and there were a worthwhile project behind it, that it would receive over 90 per cent approval from the area which I represent in this House.

Regarding this girl, I could just read you a letter here. It comes from a Minister. It tells that the case was turned over to one of the specialists they have in their department, a Mr. Canty or something, what they had done and the effort that was made. It is recognizing that, in accordance with the Government policy, there are specialized placement services in that department … the department offered the best hope of finding facilities and so on. Then it winds up, "… although I can offer no easy solution to the problem that concerns you so much, I assure you that this department has done all in its power to help and will continue to offer full support."

Full support, Mr. Speaker, in this particular case, is nothing. The thing that concerns me is the poor mother and the brother and sister that this child happens to have. The problem, as I see it, is that this is not good for the other sister and brother and that this creates such a burden that, unless the Government does something, they will be faced with the problem of having a mother to look after, as well as the child. How we can say, in this House, that we are looking after and caring for the people that require special aid in the Province, and then find yourself, because, it's a more serious than usual case, it's one you can't handle. Multiple injuries means, in effect, that we can't do anything about it, this is too serious a case for us to look after. Mr. Speaker, I am very disappointed that I had to bring this to the floor of the House but there is no other way that I can see.

Then, speaking on sweepstakes, again. Here is an article, "Sweepstakes Anyone?" This is Canadian Press, January 6, 1971. "Exhibition Association in Edmonton and Calgary announced that they will each sponsor a $200,000 sweepstake." What is there about limiting a $5,000 sweepstake in B.C., when they can go for $200,000 in Alberta? This, of course, is Government-sponsored and the money is going to be used for just such cases as that I brought before the House. Here's another one. LuckyDog Lottery, this is Saskatchewan, and they are going for $100,000. Why do we have to be so aggressive in the field of helping by other means when we don't provide the means ourselves?

Mr. Speaker, we have mentioned on the floor of this House and we have a bill on the floor of this House, regarding teachers' pensions. So I am not going to speak about pensions. As a matter of fact, I feel safer speaking about teachers on the floor of the House than I might at home, because I happen to have married one.

However, Mr. Speaker, regarding these teachers, we, on the floor of this House, have mentioned doctors as performing their duties with too much laxity. This was brought out in an earlier debate. But what about the teachers whose behaviour is worse than any labour union'! The labour unions will honour a contract. Yet, the teachers expected to be treated as professional people. The B.C. Teachers' Federation is one of the largest and strongest wholly-B.C. unions in our Province. After a teacher has put in two years' teaching, his position is comparable to belonging to a union with a closed shop. They are now trying to dictate to Government — policy. Some of their representatives are foreign born and strongly favour communism. It is time Canadian teachers became concerned with the cleaning up and policing of their own organization and become truly professional like doctors and lawyers.

It is my opinion, Mr. Speaker, that this Government should allow a competent board comprised of teachers from the B.C. Teachers' Federation to have the authority to lift the certificate of an incompetent teacher. We now have unemployed B.C. Canadian teachers. There should be a stop order on bringing in teachers from the outside.

Then we have the municipal groups who are happy and then we have the article that was in the Colonist of this date. It says in this article — I'll only read a part, "If teachers struck for better pensions they should be fired, according to Greater Victoria School Trustee, Peter Bunn." But a Victoria labour official disagreed. "It is unprofessional conduct for them to strike commented Bunn at a School Board meeting. Bunn ran on an NDP ticket in the last Provincial election."

Mr. Speaker, only a few years ago, the main concern was the welfare of the students. Do we ever hear this expression any more, Mr. Speaker? The answer is, no. Now, all you hear is the welfare of the teachers. Teachers sign to teach in a district at a stated salary scale and benefits. They should not be allowed to strike or threaten to withdraw their services. This is our tax money and teachers should be demanded to play a responsible role in our society for the education of our children.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak for a moment on fishing. I know that the Member from Atlin will enjoy listening to this. He touched lightly on this, before, today. I, myself, Mr. Speaker, have a fishing village that is out on the coast and, then, also we have quite a large number of fishermen who are headquartered at Kitimat village. Also, I run out at the coast at Hartley Bay. I have become very concerned about the plight of our Indian fishermen. How Jack Davis, the Federal Minister of Fisheries could come up, with a proposal of reducing the fishing fleet under his present plan is beyond my comprehension. It will mean, in effect,

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that boats making smaller catches will be the first to lose their licenses and be eliminated from the industry. In many and perhaps most cases, those affected will be Indians. It would be my hope, Mr. Speaker, that this House will not stand idly by and see our native fishermen deprived of their main means of livelihood by a Federal Department of Fisheries that doesn't understand their problem.

In many cases, their boats are small and their profits are very marginal. We must remember that these are our first citizens and it is my feeling that no Government whether Provincial or Federal has the right to tell an Indian whether or not he can fish. For those who are familiar with gillnet fishing they will know that the season starts first in the north. Southern fishermen make a practice of coming north with their gillnetters and then moving back towards home later on in the season, taking full advantage of salmon runs along our coast. This is an advantage to them, but what about the troubled industry that has suffered from so many strikes whereby at the start of the season there is no fishing? It has always meant that the northern B.C. natives have had to bear the brunt of the suffering because, by the time the strike is settled, the greater part of the salmon runs has passed in the north. The Indians, in effect, have been the scapegoats for southern fishermen, who still have time to take full advantage of the salmon runs in the south. Mr. Speaker, what goes on, actually, is that the companies now have the licenses on the boats — at the present time, 699 Class A licenses for gillnetting. Still, in spite of this, Mr. Speaker, and in spite of the fact that they are cutting down, last year we imported 28,000 cases of salmon. In 1969, of 773 salmon vessels, 416 were Indian and, in 1970, it was down from 773 to 699 and the Indian vessels were down to 361 with licenses. I'd like to congratulate our Minister, Dan Campbell, who wired to the Fisheries Minister, Jack Davis, in the Federal House and showed how concerned we are in this Government regarding the plight of our fishermen. The Federal Government will allow large subsidies for tuna boats, many of which are run by foreigners and still they won't subsidize the Indians to stay in the fishing industry.

I think there should be a meeting between Jack Davis of Fisheries and Jean Chretien of Indian Affairs to see if they couldn't come up with a better deal, somehow, for our natives. Also, Mr. Speaker, I don't think that we should allow the companies to control or withdraw boats or wipe out licenses. I think the licenses should go instead to the natives and not be put on the boats. Mr. Speaker, while I am on this particular subject, they have, in Alaska, come up with a plan, and it is my feeling that the coast should be separated into different areas … I notice that this idea has been suggested by Chief Councillor Gosnell of Aiyansh. It has been endorsed by Sonny Nelson of B.C. Packers, who is well known in the fishing industry of B.C. It is already practiced in Alaska, where it is termed "fishing limitations" which provides a fair return for the fishermen in the area and also restricts fishermen from other areas going in and taking off the cream. Mr. Speaker, it is a splendid plan and I think it should be followed.

Mr. Speaker, we have also a threat to our coast in the fact that they could be putting on huge barges to bring oil down and land in Washington State, just south of us. I think, Mr. Speaker, that we should assert ourselves right here and say, for those of us who know something about the coast, that you can go from Vancouver to Juneau and, except for a couple of small exposed areas, you can travel the inside passage. I think, Mr. Speaker, that we should assert ourselves, right now, and say that those are our waters and that no tankers of any other nation will ever be allowed to travel on our inside passage; furthermore, that we keep them out beyond the 9-mile or the 12-mile limit or whichever we may be able to control. In any event, if such a thing did happen, that there were a leak, it wouldn't get right into the inside passage and the mouths of our rivers, which run into the inside passage all along the coast. Also, we might have a chance of controlling it better if they were on the outside, along with the fact that there wouldn't be the danger of the boats and ships getting into trouble that there would be if we allowed them on our inside passage which, in many places, is very narrow.

Mr. Speaker, I have one last subject that I would like to cover and this … I'm not having too much luck here. Oh, yes, we have the Minister of Education with us. It has to do with mining. I would like to congratulate, at this time, the Northern B.C. Chamber of Mines which is endeavouring to sponsor a course at the Terrace Vocational School. This would include a course in practical mining, exploration techniques, geology, mineralogy and geophysics. Mr. Redmond, principal of the Vocational School, has stated that dormitories, cafeteria and room for a class is available at the Vocational School in Terrace. They have a bus, if required, to take students out to mineralized zones for practical study. It has been endorsed by Mr. Walker, Terrace's Canada Manpower head, who also may be able to help some of the young people to get this training.

Mr. Speaker, there was a release made and it was dated January 21. This had to do with the support that the Northern Chamber of Mines would be able to give to a school of mines to be established in Terrace at the fast growing Terrace Vocational School. This will be Canada's first School of Mines, west of the famous and highly successful Haileybury School of Mines in Ontario. It pointed out that wider membership is necessary for effective operation. The Northern Chamber mining people, business leaders and others interested are asked to participate in this project, with their participation and membership. The fees and so on are set down.

Mr. Speaker, since this came out, there is a class already waiting in Terrace, which is ready and prepared to take this course. That was January 21. This is February I and this carries through with the possibility of the class in Terrace and the plans that are being made. Then it says, "In a phone conversation, Mr. Bates of the Northern Chamber learned from the Honourable Donald Brothers, Minister of Education, that although no definite decision has been made as to the site, there is a possibility that the Kootenay area of southern B.C. may be the final choice. It is interesting that the reason given for this possible choice is that it has been declared a depressed area by the Dominion Government."

Mr. Speaker, what I would like to point out is that northern B.C. Is well known for its mineral wealth, which has yet to be developed. How better can it be accomplished than by educating and training under northern conditions. Labour turnover in northern mines is very high. Why should we not, then, train local people who would be content to stay and work in the north? Another fact that must not be overlooked is the necessity for practical training which could be done under natural field conditions. There is a great need in the north for skilled miners. The Vocational School is on the ground where roads will be built north to the mining area. I'm talking now about Stewart-Cassiar and the northern area developing so fast. Terrace is in the Coast Range, which, at

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the present time, is where most of the exploration is being done. Besides that, it is well served by communications, such as two flights a day to Vancouver via CPA, daily flights north via TPA, three times weekly east by PWA, daily bus transportation east and west, Canadian Coachways, daily train service, CNR, live television — Skeena Broadcasters Limited, micro-phone wave communications, B.C. Tel., paved roads, Mr. Speaker, east, west and south. They have all been completed, now the secondary roads north soon to connect with Stewart-Cassiar Road.

The region has several open pit and underground mines in operation. I'm talking of the Babine Lake area, now, affording firsthand study and, possibly, some practical participation. It is not my intention to deny that there may be a need for mining training in southern B.C., but here we have a release on February 2, and this says " … The Honourable Donald Brothers, Minister of Education today announced that the Technical and Vocational Training Division of the Department of Education, in cooperation with the Federal Manpower Department and the Mining Association of British Columbia are considering the start of a school for miners in British Columbia. The Mining Association has advised the department that over the next several years many hundreds of trained equipment operators are going to be required in the Province. Training will be given on equipment used in open pit mining, underground mining, mine rescue, the operation and running maintenance of mine equipment and first aid. A site near Rossland has been recommended and it is expected that the first class of 40 students will start on April 1, if financial arrangements are made." This, Mr. Speaker, is what I am taking exception to. I am not here to say that they perhaps shouldn't have a class for miners in or near Rossland. What I am saying here is that we have one of the finest vocational schools in western Canada in Terrace. We have a school on which we have spent now in the vicinity of $7 million and we have the new dormitories and cafeteria and the accommodation for these people. Not only that, we have the Terrace people there right now to fill this class. Let's not get carried away because we have a depressed area somewhere, where, in all probability, many of the people who took the training may not know what to do with the job if they had one when they are finished. This is an area where people are hardworking and where they wish to train themselves in the art and skills of mining. Also, Mr. Speaker, it is an area where these people, when they have finished their course, would be able to go out and work in the mines in the immediate area and make a real contribution to our economy. We, in B.C., consider ourselves resource developers. If this is our belief, then, let's follow it through by establishing this class in the B.C. Vocational School at Terrace.

I can see where this Budget can be of great benefit to the people in the Skeena riding. Mr. Speaker, I will support it. Thank you.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs.

HON. D.R.J. CAMPBELL (Comox): Mr. Speaker, this being the Budget Debate, I intend to make one or two comments about the Budget. Having sat here for some time, now, and listened very carefully to the presentations, particularly by the Members opposite, in terms of their nonconsequential contribution to the debate, and then listened to the intelligent, well-thought through ideas that were presented by Members on this side of the House, particularly over in the corner there this afternoon, who said something that I think should be recognized about the presentations that are made by this Government to the Federal Government in terms of Budget. I don't think it was lost on the Member for Vancouver-Burrard but, I think, in terms of this Budget, it certainly was lost on some of the Federal Members of Parliament. For some time, now, in this House, it is obvious that it's lost on the Opposition Members opposite.

This is the only jurisdiction in Canada where we are dealing with a Budget, where the proposition of spending $300 million, in terms of meeting the problems of rapid transit, was put forward, not on the basis of debt creation, but on the basis of cash flow to the project on a flexible basis as you go. If you are mesmerized, as I understand some Members of the Federal House were, with the prospect of a country, like Canada, becoming involved with an expenditure over 20 years in the amount of $300 million. Mr. Speaker, for tackling this problem of urban transit, and didn't understand, first of all, that it really meant that you could be flexible as you go, to deny that it could be done is to deny the productive capacity of this Nation and its people. In terms of the whole process of planning and cash flow, we are not talking about $300 million of debt money, we are talking about a commitment, year by year, over a 20-year period, which is within the competence of this Legislature to provide and it certainly should be, if it's not, within the competence of the Federal Government.

Mr. Speaker, I can understand, to some extent, the myopia of the Liberal group opposite when they continue this peculiar, and that's about the only word that one might use to describe it, this peculiar attitude to the fact that perpetual funds exist in British Columbia and that those perpetual funds are invested in a number of projects which are uplifting the people of the Province of British Columbia. Now, I don't happen to have the responsibility for any fund other than the First Citizens' Fund (interruption). Yes, that's the attitude of the Liberal Party. It was when it was introduced.

Mr. Speaker, this particular fund…the Liberal Leader can call it a perpetual hoax if he likes … but the Member from Atlin knows it is not a perpetual hoax. The $25 million in that fund, in the first year of its existence, earned $1,800,000 odd. Now, Mr. Speaker, that money was invested in the capital requirements of British Columbia, which include Hydro and the PGE and the school financing authority and the hospital financing authority. We were paying the interest accrued to ourselves and we were setting up an interest fund from which first-class, effective projects could fall out on the Indian people.

Now, if the Liberal Party really means what it says, I'll tell you what the alternative happens to be, Mr. Leader, because I am sure you don't understand this. At the very time, Mr. Speaker, that these funds were growing and being built up by the careful budgeting over a good number of years by this Government, at that same time, other jurisdictions were in this so-called free marketplace. I think that is the word you used, Mr. Leader, a "free" marketplace. If you think that there is such a thing in the capital investment world today as a "free" marketplace, you don't know what you are talking about. The minute you have a fiscal policy laid down by a Federal administration, in the United States and here in Canada, you can predict within a quarter of one per cent, or a half of one per cent, what you are going to have to pay in

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the marketplace, that so-called "free" marketplace. You should know that. But you don't know that because every time you stand on your feet, you try to produce this myth to the people of British Columbia that somehow there is something fuzzy about the investment in British Columbia of capital generated by British Columbians to go to projects such as the First Citizens' Fund — not, Mr. Member, not, Mr. Leader, at any kind of fuzzy interest rate but at an interest rate, Mr. Speaker, that happens to be the interest rate which is laid down between the Provinces of Canada and the Federal Government in terms of the investment of the Canada Pension Account. You know that, and, Mr. Speaker, you are deliberately misleading. I'll withdraw that, Mr. Speaker. He has as much respect for the truth as a tom cat has for a marriage license.

Mr. Speaker, it is fairly obvious that the Liberals don't understand this, but the Member for Burnaby-Willingdon was talking about the same thing and the Member for Lillooet was talking about the same thing. What did he say? Well, he tried to give us the benefit of his ability in terms of municipal financing or any other kind of financing. While the Liberal Leader is up talking about this so-called free market, at the very moment, Mr. Leader and Mr. Member from Burnaby-Willingdon, that we were in New York talking about the Municipal Financing Authority, other jurisdictions were in this so-called free market, too. Free market, my eye. What was happening … Mr. Speaker, to the Members opposite I'll give a little bit of a lesson in fundamental finance. I'll tell you what was happening.

The great Province of Quebec, along with others, I might say, was in the market for $75 million of revenue-bearing hydro bonds and they were in the New York market. Do you know what the coupon rate was, Mr. Speaker? It was 9 ¼ per cent. Do you know what the effective rate was, Mr. Speaker? It was 10.32 per cent. Now, Mr. Speaker, the people of British Columbia should begin to understand that the Members opposite stand for high-cost money, not paid to the people of British Columbia but paid somewhere else, paid somewhere else. Mr. Speaker, the people of British Columbia should understand that they are not in favour of interest being maintained within the boundaries of British Columbia for things such as the First Citizens' Fund, for the Centennial Fund, for the Cultural Fund, for the Sports Fund, for our commitments for overseas relief, for this new commitment to alcohol rehabilitation and drug rehabilitation. You don't stand for that. You don't want to see that interest remain within the Province of British Columbia, to be built up and maintained within these funds for these projects. We understand that. But their talk, Mr. Speaker, their talk, their talk, about there being a free market, when there is a wages control at the Central Bank in both Canada and the United States for bonds, in the previous year, in particular, and it was building up in the year just previous to that … their understanding of a free market you could put on the head of a pin.

Mr. Speaker, of course, the NDP, too, have a delightful position with each of these Crown corporations and certain other corporations, which are in the utility business, that don't happen to be in the name of the Crown. They are so consistent; my friends opposite are always consistent. They are consistent, will catch any bus and sail down the river on any log, that's for sure. We know that. We know that they are a little upset about some of their pathetic past glories. We know that, too … which are no longer present. We realize that. But, you know … (interruption). Oh, we're talking about the Budget. We are talking about Crown corporations. The fantastically contradictory posture of the NDP; it certainly is consistent. Here, they want to talk about the great burden of the B.C. Hydro. They join their fuzzy Liberal friends over there and they join in this great charade of a motion against this Budget. They want to tear down the real achievements of the PGE and the B.C. Hydro and so on and so on. Mr. Speaker, within minutes, they are either inside this House, or out in the corridor, or on TV, — or on the radio talking about the take-over of the B.C. Telephone Co. You know, fantastically contradictory.

Mr. Speaker, I can remember when there was a great Socialist Party in British Columbia. From time to time I used to play games with it. In those days, there was a great Socialist Party, with people such as Ernie Winch — some of them are still there — Harold Winch, and Grace Maclnnis, for whom I will always have a great deal of respect. But that little opportunistic group over there now, catching any buses, sailing down the river on any logs … a Party, Mr. Speaker, that has lost the dignity of its history and hasn't got any future.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, the basic position with respect to the setting up of perpetual funds may not be noticed in the NDP ranks nor in the Liberal ranks, but they are noticed elsewhere in the country. It is one of the reasons that the eyes of Canada, quite often, are focused out here. February 15, 1971, Financial Times of Canada had this to say about the internal financing arrangement and the use of perpetual funds and their contributions to the activities of people in this Province. They had this to say, "The awkward thing for critics of this creative budgeting is that it seems to work. It has protected B.C. agencies" — and don't ever forget that those agencies unlike anywhere else in Canada, include all the school board bonds in British Columbia, they include all the hospital bonds in British Columbia. "It has protected B.C. agencies from the higher interest market for three years now." I ask you, Mr. Speaker, pretty carefully, what's the matter with that?

Mr. Speaker, I have six subjects that I am going to cover very quickly this afternoon. I know that the Members opposite, having had a lesson in finance, will listen attentively to the six other quick lessons that I am going to give.

The first one, Mr. Speaker, is the question of municipal voting. Mr. Speaker, it is a sad fact that voter turn out in municipal elections and, if you want to go one step further, in school board elections, is pretty dismal. Last year, the voting in school district elections and others was about 25 per cent average turn out, in some places as low as 12 per cent. In municipal elections, well, it is true that we had some very high recorded votes. The facts of life are that the average was well under 30 per cent for the Province. There were far too many places where it was under 20 per cent, not only for elections for people running for office, but for very significant money by-laws.

This cannot be a good rate. I am going to suggest that there are one or two reasons for it. The first reason I think for this situation is that municipal councils are simply not getting through to their people the important financial contribution to the whole picture of finance in this country that they happen to be responsible for. If you take this Province, for example, the application of funds within this Province is pretty close to 70 per cent, applied right at the local level. We are not talking about penny ante corporations anymore in the municipal world, and we talk about surpluses here in this Budget. I told you, during the course of the last

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debate, that the municipalities in British Columbia are not penny ante corporations. Together, they control, simply in surpluses, $94 million. Now, that's a lot of hay, no matter how you slice it or chop it up or grind it up. Mr. Speaker, on top of that, I don't think the public realizes that this Legislature is going to be making available to local governments revenue requirements in the way of transfer payments from senior levels of government that are going to range from 40 per cent on the average and it goes in some cases much beyond 40 of the total Budget for village municipalities in British Columbia. This is going to come as a result of the voting on this Budget. The city municipalities, and there is a range in between that and the villages, 35 per cent of their revenue is going to come from the vote on this Budget. Now, Mr. Speaker, that's a significant part of the Budget. Mr. Speaker, that does not include any of the Provincial expenditures on highways within municipalities, and I'm only going to name some of the more significant ones. It does not include any of the Provincial share of education, either primary, secondary or post-secondary. It does not include any of the money spent on medical care in the hospital field, not a dime. It does not include any of the costs of social services, beyond social welfare, in the area of child care, direct payments to home nursing and all this sort of business. So, there are those five other fundamental areas for which this Legislature has the responsibility of voting some funds. There is a tremendous impact of revenue at the local scene. It is focused there, where the people are.

I do not believe, Mr. Speaker, that the municipalities are getting across to the people the fundamental importance of their role in the scheme of things. If they don't understand that, why should they take the trouble, as obviously they are not taking the trouble, of getting out on these fundamental questions — first of all, of nominating and electing a candidate, or an alderman, or a mayor, but also carrying on, later, and putting some of their capital programmes to the electorate, Now, I think that is the focus of a problem, a focus that the municipal councils, themselves, are, certainly, simply not getting across to the people the importance of their role in the scheme of things. If they spent all their time asking for more here and asking for more there, as part of the normal exercise of knowing, they'll never get it through — the importance that they have in that financial scheme of things. That's the first thing.

The second one, Mr. Speaker, in my opinion, is that municipal councils have, in recent years, not been emphasizing enough that they, in fact, are now, all of them, unlike anywhere else in Canada, they are, in fact, all on five-year capital budgeting programmes which involve very significant amounts of capital. It is essential, when you are talking about five-year capital budgeting programmes, that the municipality acts far more in the role — I'm talking about the council now — far more in the role of salesmen for their total capital commitments over a number of years than they ever did before. They can't use this withdraw business anymore. They can't go out and sell a project here and, then, come back next year and sell another one or, maybe, pick a popular one here, and sell it and, then, next year, perhaps, put something over when the poor old ratepayers are not looking. They can't do that anymore (interruption). That's exactly what I am suggesting. My friend, I told you a long time ago that I tell it the way it is.

Mr. Speaker, the third reason, in my opinion, is that the municipalities are faced with what they consider an ineffective way of voting, because they constantly bring the suggestion that the vote should be 50 per cent plus one, in certain types of questions. I put it back the other way. When you are dealing with community Government, you are dealing with a situation where it is a bad thing for the community to exercise exactly a situation which could lead to a 51 versus 49 per cent split on any question. That is a bad thing in the municipality, because you are living directly, Mr. Member, in a community, neighbour-to-neighbour, on issues which sometimes should not, in my opinion, at least, be that divisive of the real intent of the voter. It is true you can argue today that 60 per cent majority is too great, that if you get 50 plus one, you should carry on. Mr. Speaker, I am prepared to recommend, in order to get around this problem, and in order to encourage people to understand the importance of having a commitment from a much broader part of the community than they have been getting in the past, that on all questions, as an alternative, on all questions in the Municipal Act, from A to B, whether they be referendums, plebiscites, by-laws or whatever … (interruption). A to B. In the A plus B theorum, there are all kinds of Al, A2, A3, you know … that the requirement for all questions be that, wherever there is a 60 per cent voter turn out, that it will require a 50 per cent vote to pass. The Member for North Vancouver-Seymour is in his place but the Member for North Vancouver-Capilano isn't. He might be interested in the fact that we propose one exception to that question, and that is on the question of amalgamation, where we are involved with two municipalities, adjacent, that the proposal, in that instance, would be that, where such an amalgamation vote was held, the requirement would be for a 60 per cent overall vote, with a 50 per cent situation in each of the components.

At the present time, the situation is that there be a requirement for 60 per cent in each of the two components.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to turn to the impact of the municipal building codes on housing. In the first place, Mr. Speaker, we have 147 municipalities in British Columbia and, literally, you could have 147 different building by-laws and building codes. Not only that, Mr. Speaker, you could have 147 different interpretations of the by-laws. Mr. Speaker, you could, literally, as we have gone along, expect that, from year to year and even on a day-to-day basis, the ' interpretive quiffs which have come into the application of these by-laws, mostly by building inspectors and regular people of a variety of kinds, have completely destroyed the original intent of the Municipal Act — that there would be one by-law in British Columbia and that would be the National Code. Over the years that certainly has not come to pass.

In recent years, this has had a tremendous effect on the difficulties facing the individual builders. It has had a tremendous effect on the difficulties facing the larger scale developers. It has had a tremendous effect on the ability of manufacturing people to know where they stood between one municipality and the other. Things connected with the introduction and standardization of new materials have been a problem. In fact, it has been one of the contributing factors — and I'll name some others later on — one of the contributing factors to the higher cost of housing.

I am proposing to recommend to the Legislature that the National Code, together with the B.C. Plumbing Code, become effective on January 1, 1972, and that this be read to mean that there will be a common procedural and interpretive manual accompanying the application of the National code and the Plumbing Code, that there be established, at the Provincial level, a Provincial advisory apparatus, which would have several functions, but one of

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them would be the necessity … as the by-law comes into force or the code comes into force … that they be in a position to be able to do two things. One, the position of being able to act in an interpretive capacity, if there is difficulty in the application of the code and, secondly, to be able to be one of the group which might bring forward additions to the code. It is proposed that there be an amending procedure, which is likely to involve a number of groups. The first one is likely to be the UBCM Convention, itself, as it brings forward ideas for the technical applications of the proposition. It is likely that there will be experience gathered from municipal regulatory staffs, directly. It is likely that the Provincial regulatory bodies like the B.C. Builders' Association, the B.C. Association of Plumbers, the B.C. Builders Inspectors' Association — these Provincial regulatory building and manufacturing associations, including architects and engineers, may be the source of certain ideas for incorporation into the code. There will obviously be amendments to the code, from time to time, Nationally. There will, probably, be amendments to the code, Nationally, in terms of materials, and, as I mentioned, there are likely to be ideas for additions to the code from the Provincial advisory board, itself. The point, Mr. Speaker, is, in this amending procedure and in the interpretive procedure, that once the amendment is made and the interpretation is made it will automatically attach itself to the by-laws of the municipality, without any further action. Under the original Municipal Act, while the intent was clear, in practice it simply went off the rails. With the quiffs and the weird ways of interpreting the intent of the code, the original intent, certainly, did not come to pass. I am satisfied that most of the groups that I named, and others, will be very happy with these amendments.

I'd like to mention some significance of the impact of land on housing. Some Members have had some occasion to comment on this. This Government has made clear that the Provincial Crown land in areas, such as the instant towns and, certainly, around places such as Prince George, has had a very significant impact on the cost of land in those areas and has been very much a fact in keeping the cost of land down. There can be no question that the fact that the Crown was in a position to be in that position of ownership is significant in British Columbia. I'll have something more to say about the ownership of land in British Columbia before I sit down.

Mr. Speaker, the facts are that the municipalities in British Columbia, in the lower mainland, have not attempted to play their part in the provision of land on the same basis as the Crown Provincial.

AN HON. MEMBER: What about Port Moody? Come on now, name names.

MR. CAMPBELL: Wait a minute, my friend. I certainly will. I will name them all. Thank you very much for the question. Mr. Speaker, the facts are that, as the lower mainland developed over so many years, a great deal of that land was, at one time, in the name of the Crown Provincial. Over the years, the municipal council has replaced the position of the Crown, in terms of what it has in the land bank in the lower mainland. The facts of life are, Mr. Speaker, that just as the Crown Provincial in areas such as Prince George, should be trying to make a significant impact on the cost of land in those communities, so, Mr. Speaker, should the municipalities in the lower mainland be playing their part. I'm not talking about having to go out and buy great tracts of land in terms of land assembly projects. I am talking about the land in the bank now. Mr. Speaker, they have done zilch, they have done zilch (interruption). Now, Mr. Member …

MR. SPEAKER: Order.

MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Speaker, the facts of life are that in the lower mainland, simply in the Greater Vancouver Regional District, and I've been extremely conservative here so that I didn't get accused of putting in mountain tops, the district of Burnaby, 950 acres. Those are acres available for residential use. I'm not talking about commercial-zoned areas or industrial-zoned areas. The city of New Westminster … I know the situation. You wouldn't expect to find very much left there. New Westminster is a cozy little town, good tax rates, very thoughtful people. My mother still lives there, so does my father, so do my two brothers. City of North Vancouver, 55 acres; district of North Vancouver, 1,100 acres; city of Port Coquitlam, 500 acres; the city of Port Moody, 700 acres; district of Surrey, 1,750 acres; the city of Vancouver, 660 acres; the total in the Greater Vancouver Regional District, in the land bank right as of now, 5,560 acres. I call on the municipalities, this afternoon, to pull their share of the load, in terms of making land available in the name of the people, which the Crown is doing in other parts of British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker, that was number three. Number four … and I'm going to finish, somehow, in spite of any interruptions. Behave yourselves and I'll finish quicker.

Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say a word about regional districts, because questions are asked. I'm not going to answer them all here today. Either the Members of this Legislature have to answer two or three of these questions, "yes," or they have to answer them, "no." Just nod your head.

In the first place, Mr. Speaker, when we established regional districts in British Columbia, we established them as a federation, made up of existing units of local governments. Now, it is quite true that there are all kinds of varieties of ways to arrive at a regional system. But the minute you say you do not wish to federate, that means you have to concoct some other structure of some kind. Presumably, existing municipalities would not be a party to that. I'd like to suggest that that would be a bad structure for British Columbia. The facts are that we've federated the existing structures of local government and, where they did not exist, we gave them a direct, electoral relationship to the Regional District Board. That is point number one (interruption). I'll come to Fraser Mills, later in the Session, my friend.

The second point, we deliberately established a creation of Government that did not have power to tax, that did not have power to tax — and that is fundamental. Because, if you give a regional apparatus power to tax, a direct power to tax, you have created, for sure, a fourth level of government, no question about it. Now, if you wish to confer on regional districts the power to have some kind of independent source of revenue, as opposed to the municipal units beneath them, then, if you say "yes," you are creating a fourth level of government. You should understand what you are saying when you suggest these things. You are going to create a fourth level of government, for sure. Mr. Speaker, I don't think that's a good thing for British Columbia.

The third thing that is often said is that, because this regional apparatus has regional responsibilities, there should

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be established a system whereby the members of the regional board can be elected directly. Well, let's examine that. If they are elected directly, you have given the other list. It's either the taxation list that gives them the presence of a fourth level government or it's on the matter of being directly elected. So, if you come down to the question and ask if members of regional boards should be directly elected, as they have to be for convenience for unorganized areas, or should they be, as they, in fact, are, simply a holding corporation for all their members — they are a holding corporation now — if you make them directly elected, then, there is no question that you have, in fact, again, created a fourth level of government. I don't think that is a good thing for British Columbia.

Mr. Speaker, one of the other things that is little understood about the regional districts, apart from their hardware functions, and they have some of them (interruption). Hardware is garbage, street lighting, and so on, in bits and pieces, around the Province. In the new direction that you are going to take in this Province, in terms of resource management and in terms of the work of the environmental committee, how in the name of commonsense, do you co-ordinate resource management and environmental management in British Columbia, if you don't have a local base? Will you tell me how you do that? How would you try and co-ordinate and correlate all of the activities of the 465 improvement districts, which we still have, 147 municipalities, 400 ratepayers' organizations — if you didn't have something in the unorganized areas looking after regional districts — 500 boards of trade, 200 chambers of commerce, all of these units that, certainly, there should be some kind of local presence in terms of managing the environment.

Mr. Speaker, this is the first Province in Canada to give deliberately the local people a rule in the management of resources — the first, not the second.

Mr. Speaker, my colleague, the Minister of Lands, Forests, and Water Resources, we were the first in Canada to have the Okanagan water basin studied. It couldn't have been done if my colleague hadn't had a local presence with which to work. If you don't know that, you don't know anything.

Mr. Speaker, what I am saying is that the regional district is a fundamental partner of the Crown Provincial in the management of resources and in the maintenance of environment. Later, this year, the resource departments of Government will be meeting in a very direct way. First of all, in Victoria on April 16, in bringing together some of the things which will cause concern and are of concern and require to be worked out in terms of how we are going to make good our commitment that this is going to be the cleanest place on earth in 1975, and the best managed insofar as resources are concerned. Mr. Speaker, after this Victoria meeting, there will be a further series of seminars in the field, with field staffs that are attached to these regions. It is little understood that the Civil Service of the Crown Provincial and the Civil Service of the Federal Government are not only invited, but are part and parcel of the Civil Service of the regional district, without adding one single body to its cost structure. They are servants, as advisors, of those groups.

What has to be worked out in terms of understandable administration? First of all, this kind of resource management — and I can tell you it is not going on anywhere in Canada — requires new techniques of administration. It requires new techniques of communication. It requires new techniques of resolving resource conflicts. It requires new techniques of staff dispersal in the field. Why should a biologist, who happens to be within the orbit of the Department of Recreation and Conservation, not be interchangeable with the biological apparatus of the Department of Lands, Forests, and Water Resources? Can you tell me why? Why shouldn't the Minister of Agriculture, who has a very fine laboratory over in Vancouver, and the Minister of Health who has another one, why can't some of the activities of both those departments be interchangeable through the system of resource management? Can you tell me why? I can't think of one single answer why there can't be that kind of interchange. If you have a person in the Water Rights Branch, Canada, and he has the skill and the technical knowledge, can you tell me one single reason why his information-gathering ability or his research ability has to be duplicated either at the Provincial level or the international level? Can you tell me one reason why? It may be tradition, my friend, but it is just 100 per cent wrong. It's 100 per cent wrong. It is an outdated system of environmental management and it won't work. The environmental questions that we are faced with are too complex.

The Members opposite scoffed when the Minister of Mines suggested that, in terms of reclamation, it would be a good piece of business if he happened to go to the Minister of Agriculture's Department and find some agrologists and agronomists and so on, within that department, who would be useful in determining something that was happening over here in the Mines Department. Now, can you tell me one single reason, Mr. Speaker, why that is a stupid approach or an approach that isn't workable? That these people, who are available and within the structure of Government, and I couldn't care less whether it's the Government at the Federal level or the Provincial level, surely, that's just plain commonsense … Not only that, Mr. Speaker, it's got to be plain economic sense. Mr. Speaker, I am simply saying this, that the regional district structure is far more than a little device to carry out street lighting (interruption). Oh, Mr. Member, you were on the telephone to me one day, suggesting that the regional district in your area get on with the business of solving the garbage disposal problem, so don't give me the business.

Mr. Speaker, I just want to say a quick work…I was going to say another few words about new towns, but I know I would disappoint the Leader of the Opposition if I didn't tell him that I have one or two bits of material that, if he cares to talk to me in my estimates, I'll be ready for him.

The other fundamental thing I wanted to say about the Budget, because it is a Budget Debate, is that this Budget, apart from the figures it contains, rests on one other very fundamental proposition insofar as the Government and the people of the Province of British Columbia are concerned. That happens to be that, over the years, since 1952, as custodians of the resources of British Columbia, unlike anywhere else in the country, the Government of this Province, step by step, took the road of maintaining resources in the name of the Crown. Mr. Speaker, what is the total on the tape today? Why must this Government be ever mindful of the trust that has developed over the years in what the people in British Columbia can expect to derive by way of revenue from these resources, which are held in the name of the Crown? Because other areas have sold them out. From the Canada Yearbook, so I won't confuse you with my own figures: private land, Prince Edward Island, 94 per cent in private hands; 2.4 per cent in the name of the Crown; Nova Scotia, 74.1 per cent in private hands, 22.6 per cent in the name of the Crown; New Brunswick, 54.5 per cent in the

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name of a private holder, fee simple, 42.8 in the name of the Crown; Quebec, 7.3 per cent, and this is the one figure because of the configuration of population densities in the Province of Quebec, that's not too meaningful, and because of the historical French business of chopping up the land back from the river. If you know your history you'll remember they chopped it all up,100 ft. wide. That 7.3 per cent of Quebec, however, is in private hands, 92.6 per cent is in the name of the Crown. If you appreciate anything about land-use patterns in Quebec, that 92.6 per cent, in this instance, is muskeg and swamp in the northern part of the Canadian Shield. Ontario is 11.0 per cent in the name of a. private holder, with 88.1 per cent in the name of the Crown; Manitoba, 21.3 per cent in private hands, 78.2 per cent in the name of the Crown; Saskatchewan, 42 per cent in private hands, 54.6 per cent in the name of the Crown. When I say "in the name of the Crown" I mean in the name of the Crown Provincial, because I haven't taken any Federal lands out of here. Alberta, in private hands, 38.8 per cent, in the name of the Crown, 51 per cent; British Columbia, 5.6 per cent in private hands, 93.5 per cent in the name of the Crown.

Now, Mr. Speaker, since 1952, this Government, in spite of the peculiar myth, and that's all you can call it, the peculiar myth spread around British Columbia by particularly our Socialist friends opposite, that there has been a massive sell-out of the lands of British Columbia to anyone, Mr. Speaker, is disrespect for the truth.

Mr. Speaker, the fundamental reason why this government started, in 1952, on a step-by-step process, often with very vigorous criticism, some of it from the Members opposite — I remember the Member for Kaslo-Slocan and I remember the Member for Kootenay, who was then the Member for Cranbrook — I can remember their alarm at the discontinuance of Crown grants. The Member for Kaslo-Slocan and the Member for Cranbrook, in those debates, were very alarmed that the Government was going to eliminate Crown grants. Mr. Speaker, over the years the Crown grants, on a systematic basis, were eliminated. The procedures that are taking place under the Land Act are a continuation of that process — the sacred trust of the lands of British Columbia are remaining in the name of the Crown and, fundamentally, that's the reason why this Budget is a good Budget and it's why anyone, in all conscience, should vote for it.

On the motion of the Honourable I.P. Dawson, the debate was adjourned to the next sitting of the House.

The House proceeded to the Order, "Public Bills and Orders."

HON. W.A.C. BENNETT (South Okanagan): I move the second reading of Bill No. 11, Mr. Speaker. Bill 11, Special Funds Appropriation Act.

MR. SPEAKER: Bill 11, Special Funds Appropriation Act. Honourable the Minister of Finance.

MR. BENNETT: This Government has set up a number of funds in perpetuity because the functions involved in the funds affect future as well as present generations. Interest earnings from each fund are used annually for the funds' purposes and, in this manner, money for expenditures are assured each year, forever. In this respect, Mr. Speaker, we lead the Nation. The following perpetual funds operate in this manner: The First Citizens' Fund, the Agricultural Aid to Developing Countries and World Disaster Areas Fund, Centennial Cultural Fund and the Physical Fitness and Amateur Sports Fund.

The Government now deems it advisable to set up an additional fund, in perpetuity, to be known as the Drug, Alcohol, and Cigarette Education, Prevention, and Rehabilitation Fund. We are now faced with a growing number of problems resulting from the use of drugs, alcohol and cigarettes, which will affect future as well as present generations. Additional sums of money from those provided in the ordinary estimates of expenditure are needed now and will be needed in the future for permanent, extensive education and rehabilitation programmes. Accordingly, this bill proposes that $25 million be set aside for the Drug, Alcohol, and Cigarette Education, Prevention, and Rehabilitation Fund, with the annual interest earnings being used each year and every year, forever, Mr. Speaker.

I want to stress this point, Mr. Speaker, which is being missed by some in this Province. An important side effect and side advantage of the perpetual funds is the amount of capital they supply for our school and hospital construction. I want to say, Mr. Speaker, that none of these perpetual funds has been used in long-term bonds for any other purposes other than schools and hospitals, neither will they be, Mr. Speaker, neither will they be. To date, Mr. Speaker, $30 million of long-term capital funds have been provided for school and hospital construction from this source — $30 million already. Together with the new fund proposed in this bill, a total of $75 million is provided, or $40 million will now be available. This is particularly important, at this time, when the Province has embarked on a major school-hospital construction programme and no single programme so far as school construction or hospital construction is being held up because of finances at all, in this Province, Mr. Speaker.

At this point, I wish to ask each Member in the House to note, Mr. Speaker, that these perpetual funds are invested carefully in short-term, top-grade paper, such as bank term deposits and Provincial guaranteed parity bonds. They are invested in these securities for this reason — so that the funds are instantly available, as required, for long-term bonds of the British Columbia school districts and the British Columbia hospital districts financing authorities. If we put them in long-term, they'd be tied up and they couldn't be used for this purpose. We have heard criticism of our parity bonds. There's no other bond as good as this bond any place in the world, my friends, any place in the world, anywhere. I want that to be noted, Mr. Speaker, so that they won't deny it afterwards. The Opposition stayed silent regarding that remark. So we know that they are opposed to them (interruption). My friend, you're just hooked, you are hooked to a philosophy that is dead.

In addition, this Government has set up funds that are not perpetual and from which the capital is used as required. One such fund operates under the Provincial home acquisition grant (interruption). Did you say shame to that? Why don't you pay attention? You might learn something. I'm going to tell you there have been four or five other Leaders of your Party and some of them wouldn't listen. They were thrown out, just the same as you will be, my friend, because you're on the way out now and you know it. In addition, this Government has set up funds that are not perpetual and for which capital is used as required. One such fund operates under the Provincial Home Acquisition Act. This act now provides either a grant of $1,000 or a second mortgage loan

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of up to $5,000, at low interest rates, for purposes of building or purchasing a new home to encourage our citizens to own their own homes. This home building grant has been of particular value during the present high-interest, tight money period, and it has been the means of providing many new homes and many new jobs. To date, the Government of this Province has provided $85 million for outside grants or for second mortgage financing. But to ensure that this very popular and essential programme continues, it is also proposed in this bill to add $20 million to the Provincial home acquisition funds for new homes throughout this Province. A $5 million Crop Insurance Stabilization Fund was established in 1967 to assist our farmers who had suffered crop failures. Due to large claims on the fund, this past year, on account of the adverse crop conditions, the fund has been greatly depleted. This bill, therefore, also proposes the addition of $5 million to the Crop Insurance Stabilization Fund. Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to move second reading.

On the motion of Mr. Strachan, the debate was adjourned to the next sitting of the House.

The Hon. R.G. Williston (Minister of Lands, Forests, and Water Resources) presented the Annual Report of the British Columbia Lands Service of the Department of Lands, Forests, and Water Resources for the year ended December 31, 1970.

The House adjourned at 5:58 p.m.

The House met at 8:00 p.m.

BUDGET DEBATE

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister without Portfolio.

HON. I.P. DAWSON (Mackenzie): Mr. Speaker, once again I would like to say it is a great privilege and an honour to speak in this House as a representative of that great riding of Mackenzie, which stretches from Port Melon, Powell River, up to Ocean Falls, and Bella Coola and Bella Bella. This to me is one of the most fantastic and scenic ridings in British Columbia — bar none — so I would say it is a privilege to be in this House speaking for these wonderful people.

First of all, Mr. Speaker, the other day, a couple of Members from across the way in the Opposition made the remark that it was difficult to get into the vocational schools with a Grade 10 level. I would like to say, at this time, that, in Burnaby alone, in one class — I wasn't able to get all the figures, but I have a few here tonight — in Burnaby, there are 660 trainees in 10 pre-employment and upgrading programmes in progress that require Grade 10 maximum qualifications, and 120 students have less than Grade 11, which is good, and 129 students have less than Grade 11 or better. In the students' basic training, which, to me, is one of the most marvellous courses going on in our vocational schools today, whereby the young person, or the older person up to 55 years of age, who goes in for retraining and has not got the prerequisites for any ordinary academic school can get upgrading. It is very interesting to note that, out of the 150 students in basic training for skill development in Burnaby, 89 students with less than Grade 10 are being upgraded to Grade 10 and 11 levels to that they can go on and take further retraining to be able to work in today's world. I think this is excellent, indeed, for a vocational school.

In Victoria, again, the commercial course, the advanced general secretarial course, 31 of the students who are taking the course have Grade 10 or less. I would say, at this time, amongst those students in the House, there is one class of 22 students, 4 have Grade 12, one, Grade 13, and all the rest have Grade 10 or less. I think this speaks tremendously well for the vocational schools that are doing a good job for our people in British Columbia. I'm not really cheering for that, Mr. Premier, I just want to tell the facts as they are.

Mr. Speaker, there is a line of a song that goes "If you're young at heart, fairy tales can come true, it's all up to you, if you're young at heart." I feel that the women's liberation groups can do themselves and their cause a great deal of harm by pursuing policies which could be construed as assuming the character of the wife wearing the breeches and the husband wearing the petti-coats. Recently, in one newspaper, some of these groups were even advocating that the Princess in the traditional fairy tale should be recast in the role of saying "No" once in a while, to the Prince Charming. What a to-do about nothing! Can you imagine a lady saying "No" under such circumstances? The fraternity of the henpecked, no doubt, do not want to see too much liberation on the part of women. But let's face it, you men, where would you be without us? Mr. Speaker, I was going to say some real nasty things about the Member from Delta, tonight, in particular after what he said about us women the other night but, you know, this is Brotherhood Week and I am overflowing with sisterly love tonight for my brothers.

I wish to say a few words now, Mr. Speaker, for my riding in Mackenzie but, before I do so, the Minister of Agriculture asked me if I would make a little announcement for him tonight. The other day he spoke about trying to arrange the sale of cattle to Russia and he has asked me to tell you here tonight, the Members of this House, that word was officially received today that 300 head of cattle from British Columbia have been sold to Russia and the further sale of cows is under way. I think this speaks well for British Columbia, indeed.

Mr. Speaker, in my riding in Mackenzie, it has been a busy year in the area of school construction. Some of the ones that have been constructed are in Sechelt — five standard classrooms — the Gibson secondary and Ocean Falls elementary and secondary. As you know, we had a very bad fire up there a year ago and it destroyed all the schools. We are very pleased that they are progressing very nicely. We had an activity room and a library and a gym approved just a few days ago for the Ocean Falls Elementary. I am very pleased because up in that area there is no gymnasium at all. It is a very difficult thing to carry on the ordinary everyday recreation (interruption). Yes, they have a lot of rain up there, so they need a lot of inside activity, especially during the winter months. That wasn't a nice thing to say. We wouldn't have our mills and our forests if we didn't have rain, you know. Also I am very pleased that the two hospitals are progressing very well in my riding. They are the acute bed and extended care additions at Sechelt, and the Ocean Falls Hospital, as well, is going ahead.

In recreation, 150 acres were set aside for a park two or three years ago and it has now been declared a park. This park will be known as Porpoise Bay Park and those people

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who travel through our area will be very pleased to see this, especially the tourists in the tourist season.

Several times in this House, though, I have made mention of the development of the Skookumchuck Rapids Park. Once again, I wish to emphasize the vital need for development of this park and a road there, too. I feel that such a development would be of importance in our tourist industry and would provide enjoyment of this natural beauty spot for our own residents. This park, Mr. Speaker, overlooks the Skookumchuck Rapids, a phenomena, to me, as breathtaking as a tidal bar in Nova Scotia. Camp tables, restroom facilities, parking space for 20 to 30 cars are required to make this park development possible and useful for the public and it requires about three miles of road. This would not be difficult, Mr. Speaker, as the road would follow an old logging trail. Mr. Speaker, I am pleased this evening to be able to announce that the Minister of Recreation and Conservation has given his approval for the development of this park and also the building of the road to the park. This indeed will be a terrific boon to our area.

I would like to ask the Minister of Health, in due course, when he's thinking about mental health clinics, in the next year or two, that he give consideration to the opening of a mental health clinic in the Powell River area. We feel this is a vital need for us and we hope you will think about this in the next year or so, so that we can participate in this programme.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to be able to report that, since last speaking in this House, a second cottage has been erected at Brannen Lake and is now being used by the boys at the school. Features of the two cottages are designed so that the boys have their own rooms which open out onto the main lounge. The cottages are decorated in bright, cheerful colours and are a far cry from the totally institutionalized type of building that existed for boys in such establishments in former years. The former security unit has also been converted to an open cottage and it is called Lake Cottage. Here, again, the concept of an open cottage epitomizes the new look in this type of school. One thing that impressed me, on my visit to Brannen Lake School, was that the boys, themselves, were constructing beds for use by the school, replacing the old steel types that they had before. I think this is excellent indeed. It gives them something, a hobby, something to do and also they are doing a good job. The new day care experiment is going well, with five boys from the local area participating in this programme. Some of the boys go home every night while the remainder go home on the weekends. Co-operation of parents in the rehabilitation of their boys is a most important aspect of this programme. While Brannen Lake does not accept boys who are in need of psychiatric treatment, they have been most fortunate in having the assistance of local psychiatrists, where the need has arisen. Dr. Kirkpatrick continues to act as the visiting psychiatrist on a regular basis and detailed, written assessments of a local educational psychologist have been found very useful.

I have discussed with the Minister of Rehabilitation and Social Improvement that he give consideration, in due course, to a full-time educational psychologist for Brannen Lake and Willingdon School combined. The school's programme at Brannen Lake continues to be operational under the Nanaimo School Board. An interesting experiment during the Christmas holidays was the inauguration of extended home visits for the boys. These visits were of 13-day duration. The results were so satisfactory that consideration is being given to arranging visits at other times of the year. Since the reclassification of child care worker positions as group leaders, there has been a dramatic improvement in hiring opportunities. Coupled with a staff training programme, the reclassification has also produced an obvious enhancement of the professional self-respect and enthusiasm of the workers. Changes in legislation in April, 1969, continue to be of the utmost benefit to the school and to the boys in it. Properly implemented, the present legislative framework puts us in a position of leadership in this field.

At Willingdon School, it is interesting to note that the age range of the girls was always the highest in the 15 to 16 age group. Now it has shrunk to the 14 to 15 age group. A significant difference in the school population has occurred since August of last year. Admissions in September and November were down to one and four, respectively. In October and December, admissions were higher than had been the former norm. At this stage, it is impossible to determine the cause or, indeed, to predict what is likely to happen in the next few months. The school has three academic teachers hired by the Civil Service Commission and enjoys the cooperation of the school inspectors for the Burnaby School District. Annual inspections are carried out, and reports presented to the school authorities by these inspectors. Teachers at Willingdon may avail themselves of the facilities of the Burnaby School District and are free to consult with district personnel on matters of curriculum, audiovisual aid and school policies. Consideration is being given to the Burnaby School Board taking over the classes at Willingdon School; however, there could be some disadvantage to such a take-over, namely that Willingdon would be a very small unit in a very large system and could easily become lost within that system, since the classes at Willingdon School are made up, for the most part, of girls who have been suspended from the regular school system, or labelled as undesirable in a classroom situation.

It is interesting to note that school inspectors, who have visited the school in the past two or three years, have expressed amazement at the quality of the work being done by the students in the classes at the school, and at the enthusiasm shown by both students and teachers. Changes in attitudes, both in and out of the school, as a result of legislative changes last year, in 1969, are more subtle than outstanding. The girls first considered that they had come to Willingdon only to await something better; today, while the first question still is, when do I get out, many more of them see this school as a place where they can be themselves, and sort out their thinking and attitudes. They no longer seem to suffer from guilt the way they did when committed by the Court. In the past, the girls would blame themselves for all the ills in their home environment, often feeling that they had been the cause of the mother's illness or a death in the family. Once a girl has made some progress, planned weekends at home are arranged. This programme gives both the girl and her parents a chance to work out plans and decisions for the future. Smaller numbers at the school make for a much more relaxed atmosphere and reduce tensions amongst the girls.

Willingdon School has been described as a place for the teenage girl who cannot be contained in, or has been refused admission to, any other resource. Thus, Willingdon has become a specialized child care resource area for girls who are batting around in the maze of their own frustrations, not knowing what they want nor, indeed, that they do need help. While recognizing that we have, in our society, children with many special needs, for example, those who are emotionally

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disturbed, those who are retarded, those who are in trouble with the law, the need for assessment centres for the young teenagers in trouble is becoming more and more apparent.

We have a broad spectrum of resources and programmes for children with special needs, amongst these is the young offender. Therefore, I am very pleased, indeed, that the Provincial Youth Resource Panel has recently completed its study and listed existing facilities which might be useful as reasonable assessment centres throughout the Province. It is my hope that such centres might be set up within the foreseeable future.

In a normal school environment, co-education is an accepted pattern. Up to this time, it has not been the pattern, either at Brannen Lake or Willingdon Schools, or in many areas in Canada. While visiting such schools in the United States and elsewhere, I was interested to observe that co-education was implemented and was proving to be successful from a social, psychological point of view. In one case, co-educational classes were held in the girls' school. The boys made the trip by bus each day. The co-educational atmosphere tends to smooth the way for return to the normal school environment and a teenager fits in more readily to high school situations upon return to that system. My observation of the psychological benefits that might occur to these young people, where they participate in a co-educational environment, I discussed with the Minister of Rehabilitation and Social Improvement. It is my hope that we can have a pilot project this year here in British Columbia.

When speaking in the House on these two schools, in the past years, I have mentioned the importance of community involvement. I would again remind you that these young people come from communities to which they will return. How much better it would be were they able to stay in their own home communities receiving help at local levels. I'm pleased that communities are recognizing their responsibilities, as well, in this area, and to know that there are a number of communities that are in the process of planning group-living homes with the cooperation of the Provincial Government. One such community is my own home community of Powell River. Approval was given in December for a group-living home for girls and, already, construction is well under way.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to say a little bit about the senior citizens at the present time, or the elderly citizens, as I call them. We have two main groups in the Province of British Columbia, the old age pensioners and the senior citizens, so I usually try to call them elderly citizens and they are both kept quite happy. They like being called elderly citizens. I was very pleased to hear on the radio the other day in Victoria that a number of Victoria elementary school children sent Valentines to the senior citizens in the Victoria area, and I think these young people should be complimented on taking time out to remember our elderly citizens on Valentine's Day. I think they deserve a big hand from the people in this House.

Bus passes have proven to be very popular amongst elderly people and the number of such passes being issued is steadily increasing. Somewhat in excess of 13,000 passes have been issued for the six-month period ending March 31, 1971; however, this year, because of the transit strike, I am pleased that the passes have been extended for one month and the new expiry date will be April 30, this year. Fifty-seven counsellors throughout the Province are continuing to do an outstanding job in advising their peers in many ways; for example, completion of various forms, facilities available to pensioners and assisting them in the problems they may have, such as obtaining suitable living accommodation, assistance in reading or writing letters, driving elderly persons to doctors, or helping arrange pleasure trips for individuals. I would say, Mr. Speaker, that I have any number of letters from our counsellors, in which they tell of the work they are doing. I think it is just tremendous, indeed. The counsellor programme was the first of its kind in North America and has attracted considerable interest across the country. Requests have been received from Manitoba and Ontario asking for information as to the methods used to start the programme and for details of its operation. A consultant for the Aged and Infirm Programme Consultation Services, under the Department of Health and Social Services, in Winnipeg, made a special trip to British Columbia in order to obtain information of this nature firsthand.

Elderly Citizens' and Pioneers' Week, last year, was a resounding success and, in preparation for this event, over 2,000 notices or letters are sent to news media, public and private hospitals, boarding homes, rest homes, churches and senior citizens' counsellors, mayors, service clubs and organizations, requesting their help in publicizing a special week, to make it a meaningful one for elderly citizens and pioneers. This year being Centennial Year, we are asking all communities and organizations to become even more involved in honouring our pioneers and elderly citizens. The week is June 6 to 19.

In my speech, last year, I made reference to the overall picture of hard-of-hearing problems of elderly citizens and to the fact that we would be holding a five-day assessment, clinic in the south Okanagan region in this connection. As a result of these clinics being held, one very pertinent fact came to our attention. This was that many of those who suffer hearing defects had not, until coming to the clinic, had a hearing loss test. In addition, it was evident that many of those attending the clinic would derive direct benefit from the use of a hearing-aid. Mr. Speaker, everyone in this House is well aware of the prohibitive cost, in many instances, of hearing-aids. 1, myself, have received a great many letters testifying to such cost.

Initially, my interest in the Province of the hard-of hearing was in the area of involvement of the elderly citizens, however, I am finding that my involvement in this field is extending to all age groups.

I have been following closely the work of the Speech and Hearing Planning Committee, under the chairmanship of Dr. George Elliott, Provincial Health Officer. This committee has been expanded and enlarged and it is composed of some of the most able men in this field; for instance, Dr. J. Gilbert, Division of Audiology and Speech Sciences, University of British Columbia, Dr. D. Clarke, Faculty of Education, University of British Columbia, Dr. H.B. Lockhart, British Columbia Otopathomological Society, Dr. Israels, Department of Pediatrics, Health Centre for Children and Children's Hospitals, Miss P. Towler, Speaking and Hearing Representative, Mr. Casey, Western Institute for the Deaf, Mr. Berry, Division of Aging, as well as Mr. J.L. Canty, Director of Special Education, and Mr. Dave Watts, Superintendent of Jericho Hill School.

In brief, this committee discusses the provision of hearing-aids to preschool children, the elderly and, in fact, all age groups. In addition, the committee discusses the role of the audiologist, the speech therapathologist, therapist, and teachers of the deaf. Concerning myself with the cost of hearing-aids, I sat in a number of these discussions and have

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found them to be constructive and informative. I have had meetings with hearing-aid dealers, members of the medical profession, who are particularly involved with the problems of the deaf, and with audiologists. In fact, Mr. Speaker, I did a little live-in at Jericho School myself and had the opportunity of sleeping in the same room as a little deaf girl. I enjoyed it very much.

At first, I had the feeling that the various divisions of those actively involved in hard-of-hearing problems were poles apart; however, it became apparent that the divisions are recognizing that they must work together towards a common solution and that they have the responsibility to those who encounter the problem of deafness or hearing loss to offer the best and most up-to-date service available, such service to be offered at a cost that is within the scope of those on fixed or limited incomes. Prices of some hearing-aids have been and are prohibitive to the average person. During discussions with the hearing-aid dealers, I have been very frank on the subject of hearing-aid prices. I pointed out to the dealers that they have a responsibility, as citizens within the community they serve. Out of these discussions has come some of the following information. One firm offers hearing aids at $115, plus $10 if an ear mould is necessary; terms can be arranged. Another firm offers a hearing-aid for approximately $100, again with terms arranged (interruption).

No, it is not. At a later date in this Session, I will have more to say on the prices of hearing devices. Of necessity, those becoming involved in problems of the hard-of-hearing should have specialized training and a high level of competency in whatever their area of involvement is. The skills of the audiologist, speech pathologist therapist, the teacher of the deaf, and the hearing-aid dealer overlap in some areas. It is important that this should be so, in order that services to the patient can be provided in a series of interlocking steps, ultimately resulting in fully comprehensive care. The audiologist undertakes diagnosis and treatment of ear disease, and to provide information on the degree and nature of the hearing loss. The speech pathologist-therapist undertakes to assess and manage disorders in speech and language in all groups of population. The teacher of the deaf is employed within a school system, and this very specially trained person usually administers some hearing tests to children, has the knowledge of hearing-aid use and fitting and teaches the children by special methods. The hearing-aid dealer sells acoustic instrumentation and has knowledge, in some cases, of the product that he sells. In some instances, he is required by the company he represents to undergo a short training course related to testing of hearing and fitting of hearing-aids. The extent and depth of such training vary widely. All the people involved with the problems of the hard-of-hearing must be well qualified in their areas, if a series of interlocking steps resulting in fully comprehensive care are to be followed through. Therefore, any group, lacking professional backing, attempting to offer services in this field would be well advised to consult with the Speech and Hearing Planning Committee before undertaking any work in the area of the hard-of-hearing.

It has been brought to our attention that, in one area of British Columbia, services are being offered by an organization in conjunction with a hearing-aid manufacturing firm with minimally trained assistants. While their offers are very commendable, such offers could be open to potential abuse and, indeed, could result in a dangerous situation due to the absence of a qualified audiologist who thoroughly understands the subtleties of testing hearing at all levels. I would like to stress that a medical examination should be a prerequisite before anyone with a hard-of-hearing problem becomes involved in the fitting and selection of hearing-aid devices. There is a very good reason for this; for example, it could well be that a hearing device might not necessarily be the answer to the problem of hearing loss and that corrective surgery may be required.

In all fairness, I must say that I have appreciated the cooperation of some of the hearing-aid dealers, who have provided me with information concerning their prices and services. It is my hope that, upon introduction of the bill which will be placed before the House, again, this year, in the near future, maybe, many of the problems in this field may be resolved.

The Honourable Member from New Westminster suggested that a survey be conducted in the area of recreational facilities fox senior citizens. I would suggest that there are a number of such programmes available. In fact, a wide variety of these recreational programmes are available for elderly citizens, the Silver Threads in Victoria and Saanich and, indeed, a recreational centre in New Westminster. In addition, other programmes are offered throughout the Province and such programmes take in many aspects of recreational activities and are doing an excellent job. The present programmes receive financial assistance from the Provincial Government, both for the construction and, in some cases, for their operation. Senior citizens should and, in many cases, are included on boards set up to provide recreational facilities and recreational programmes. Who knows better than the senior citizens, themselves, what they want, or what they wish, in the provision of such facilities or programmes? The recreational desires of one community may be quite different from those of another and, while a survey may provide general information, this is a matter for individual communities or groups.

Those who comment on the fact that Alberta has 3,500 housing units for senior citizens may be interested to learn that, here in British Columbia, at the present time, we have 8,624 units already in use. In addition, there is quite a number in various stages of progress. I was very pleased, Mr. Speaker, to see in the Budget Speech, this year, that the $2½ million of former years have been increased to $4 million this year. That is very nice, indeed, and I thank you, Mr. Minister of Finance, and all the senior citizens, too.

One thing I would like to say in regard to this senior citizens' programme is something new. I was very interested in a group of Indians up in the interior in the Kamloops area. Seven different bands are grouping together and, of course, they hope to build elderly citizens' housing. I am going up there this weekend, Mr. Speaker, to see it they can't get this programme off the board. Seven bands have gone together and I think this is tremendous.

Digressing for a moment, though, Mr. Speaker, when in Britain and Ireland, this past year, I visited senior citizens' housing programmes and council housing estates. While I would say that the senior homes are very much on a par with ours, I felt that the housing programmes, as a whole, were certainly not as desirable as ours, in that there is much less incentive for the individuals who wish to own their own homes. In fact, I had the impression that people were, in some cases, not given any incentive to do so. The high cost of providing state-owned, low-rental homes, homes of which the rental would not pay for the house, other than over a very long period of years, results in a very direct burden to the

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taxpayer. One man discussed with me a situation, where a millworker, who had saved about $4,000, applied through a company scheme to the housing authority to purchase a house from a limited number of council homes available for sale. First of all, he was asked, or, as he put it, interrogated, as to how he had managed to acquire the $4,000. Then, he was told that a man of his class would be much better off in a rented home. Finally, when he pressed the point that he wished to purchase one of the houses, he was told that it was not the policy of the company and the housing authority concerned to encourage people of his station in life to buy homes, and that the homes available and listed by the company were, in reality, intended for other workers and not this chap who was applying for the home.

I would say, Mr. Speaker, here in British Columbia, we have a home-owners grant of $60,500,000 this year applied to school levies as well as $5,830,000 applied to nonschool municipal levies. We have about $85 million provided for outright grants or second mortgage financing. I would say, how about the $29 million of this amount which helped to build 53,200 houses, with the $1,000 or $500 outright grants? How about the over $51 million for the 12,200 second mortgage loans? Also, of course, there is extra money being added to that in the new fiscal year. Where can you go in Canada or, in fact, anywhere else in the world, and get that kind of assistance to build or buy a home of your own? Nowhere else, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker, to say that intermediate care is the concern of any one Party is ridiculous. There has been much discussion on this topic during this Session. Because of my involvement with the senior citizens, I am fully aware of the needs in this area of care. It is not my intention to talk on extended or acute care at this time, other than in a very broad way. Extended care was first inaugurated by this Government through the British Columbia Health Insurance Service, in the year 1965. While this programme, certainly, does help many of our elderly citizens, as stated by my colleague, the Minister of Health, it was not constructed solely for elderly citizens. At the other end of the ladder, we have nonprofit housing units, built under the Elderly Citizens' Act, whereby accommodation, with or without meals, is provided. Between the areas of extended care and the nonprofit housing programme, there are two levels of care — bed level care and ambulatory care — where maintenance costs are shared between the Province and the Federal Government. Bed level care is licensed under the British Columbia Hospital Insurance Act as private hospitals, commonly known as nursing homes. Ambulatory care is licensed under the Community Care Facilities Licensing Act, and the institutions are referred to by many of us as boarding homes, rest homes and intermediate care facilities. Under the Elderly Citizens' Housing Aid Act, grants are still available for housing for elderly people and, in addition, for boarding homes and rest homes. Intermediate care facilities give care to individuals, who are ambulatory but need attention during the day and night as a result of their disabilities. These people are very close to bed level care but do not need the expensive type of help for intermediate care facilities offering activation, if available. Due to the extra services required for the heavily disabled in the intermediate care facilities, operation of such facilities is more costly than boarding homes or rest homes, but, of course, much less expensive than the maintenance of private hospitals. The intermediate care facility is the one unit where a person is ambulatory and where he can, with activation programmes, continue to look after his own needs and not necessarily become a bed case. Some idea of how much assistance for ambulatory care and for bed level care is shown in the following figures for the month of November, 1970. There are 2,851 ambulatory care patients who received assistance for a total of $314,692; 1,808 bed level care patients received assistance for a total of $317,109. In other words, 4,659 patients received assistance. The total for the month was $631,801. Using this figure as a basis for a 12-month period, the total would be approximately $7,581,624, not an inconsiderable amount.

It is my personal opinion that personal care programmes should be considered at the regional district level. I believe that an examination of programmes on this level would prove worthwhile. Reasonable development could meet the regional and local needs. All areas or communities will not, necessarily, require such a facility; therefore, regions could combine their needs in order to promote only one or two facilities instead of several. In some cases, some facilities could well be constructed and maintained in conjunction with other types of elderly citizens' housing projects. There are those who have suggested we take over private nursing homes; however, were this to happen, not one single bed would be added. I, for one, would certainly not recommend the purchase of these homes. The committee has been investigating the entire spectrum of ambulatory or personal care and its investigations are progressing. However, I would suggest that serious consideration be given to such a programme on a nonprofit basis, similar to that of elderly citizens' housing programmes, and that this be done as soon as possible and as soon as we can get Federal assistance, Mr. Speaker. I hope the Federal Government will come across with this programme soon. We need it and so do other places in Canada. I might add that, as well as providing a needed service, Mr. Speaker, it would create more jobs, especially for women.

To change the subject, Mr. Speaker, pollution comes in many forms. Water pollution, air pollution, soil pollution, to mention a few, and each of these have several forms of pollution within it. While travelling through my riding and other areas up and down the coast of our Province, I have become increasingly concerned upon seeing the tremendous log wastage caused by logs breaking away from booms as a result of storms, the havoc wrought by teredos and from other natural causes. One of the largest single losses of timber is from the action of a salt water worm called the teredo. All logs stored in salt water are susceptible to this hazard and most of the logs on the coast are stored in salt water. Logs are left in storage for lengthy periods of time to maintain an inventory of wood, thus ensuring production through logging shut-downs, such as fire season, snow season, lock-outs and strikes, whatever you have. Boomsticks used over and over again become teredo eaten, thus, weakening them and increasing the possibility of break-ups during towing operations and bad weather conditions. Reading a very interesting comment in Tidelines, I think it is called, it notes that, in an experiment of 1,661 logs, some 600 logs of these were lost due to teredo over a seven-month period. This amounts to — the overall, with the shrinkage and that — some 58 per cent. I think that is a terrible loss in our forestry industry.

Considerable loss is also realized from logs sinking and turning into deadheads. Hemlock tends to be the worst offender here. During the long periods of water storage, when logs are bundled and left in storage, as often happens presently, the bottom logs becomes waterlogged and sink completely when the bundles are broken. One newspaper

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article reports recently that a Vancouver Island saw mill of 100,000 board feet per hour, eight-hour shifts, was operated for one shift solely on logs taken from the water as deadheads.

Deadheads are a serious menace to navigation, not only for pleasure vessels, but more so for the ships and barges in commercial transportation. Therefore it was with great interest that I learned of a new idea in the log sorting and transportation field. The idea could revolutionize the whole concept in the area of logging operations.

I was so impressed with the concept that I arranged meetings with the Minister of Lands, Forests, and Water Resources, and the principals who came up with the idea. Recognizing the possibilities of a new concept, my colleague had the engineers of his department check the details of the operation and, tonight, I am very pleased, indeed, to present to you, Mr. Speaker, and through you to the Members of this House, an outline of a new concept in diagram form. I also have been able to obtain a model of the vessel to be used in implementing this system. Patents have been applied for for this invention. Its interesting to me that the whole idea and its development is the work of a man who spent 40 years of his life as a tugboat operator on the coast of British Columbia, a man who is not a big business man, but just a regular working Joe.

First of all, Mr. Speaker, you have diagrams on your desks. I had them put in for you today so that you could see this thing. This is the model. First of all, we have a barge with three enlarged pallets or platforms. One of these pallets or platforms … (interruption). I think it is important that we look at everything new these days… one barge with three enlarged pallets. One pallet or platform will be at the logging camp being loaded. One pallet will be on the barge for transport to the market or the mill. One pallet will be at the mill in process of being offloaded and this pallet or platform will be empty when the loaded pallet arrives. At both the logging site and the mill site, there will be two grids on which to place the pallets. Now, we couldn't put pilings on it, so we had to build it this way. This would be the pilings along here and this is the grid. There would be two grids on which to place the pallets upon arrival at either the mill or the logging site. The barge would be put into position in the grid, this part here. Then flooded, through here, to allow the pallet to be placed on the grid. Then the barge would float free of the pallet and shifted into position to pick up either a loaded or empty pallet from the second grid at either side. Loading and offloading of the pallet would be by means of dry land sorting, and stacking machines running aboard by means of a raft. The raft will have winches under here. The barge is designed with interlocking pieces, both at this end and here, between the pallet and the barge, on both the bow and the stem of the barge so that the pallet will not shift or come adrift from the barge hull. The turn-around time in leaving one pallet and picking up another pallet at the site of the logging camp or the mill is estimates between three and four hours. Some of the points that bring to light the desirability of this operation are dry land sorting as opposed to water sorting (interruption).

No, it's not. It is a B.C. man. Right here in British Columbia. I told you he was on our coast here for 40 years as a tugboat operator. He came up the hard way and he has done very well. I am very pleased that he came up with this idea — less log losses from sinkers or from tide and wind conditions around booming grounds. Transportation of boom chains and boomsticks would be unnecessary.

The new operation could be economically feasible because of the increase in speed of operation. Logging company operations could be speeded up by faster unloading facilities at the beach. Sorting could be speeded up by bringing all logs from various camps to a central location to be sorted on dry land. The self-dumping barges, already in operation, could be integrated in the new system by dumping logs at the sorting grounds, then removing them directly from the water. The estimated speed of this new vessel is 10 mph as compared to the 1½ mph under present methods. While the new type vessels could be used maximally, by using lights, they could be operated 24 hours a day.

In regards to a small logger, this system could benefit him greatly as well, by being able to bring his logs in bundle form to a central dry land sorting area. The bundles could be removed from the water intact, sorted and stored on land until required at the markets, in which case the wood could be moved by this barging system. In cases where small loggers obtain a few logs which are good for pilings — and this is good money to them — these few logs could be stored until a number accumulate and thus take advantage of the market in this particular area, or they could combine with other loggers in gathering together a number of such logs. As the logs are sorted, they could be transported by barge directly to the mills for an order.

It is considered possible that a mill placing an order for a load of three quarter million board feet of lumber from Howe Sound could have it delivered to the Fraser River, Harmac or Vancouver Harbour area within 24 hours. This is in direct contrast to the present system, where logs can take weeks to get to a mill following an order. A further contrast to the present system, in which very few barges are taken directly to the mill pockets, is that this operation could put sorted logs directly into a mill yard or a mill pocket. Whereas the present barges cause great swells in dumping process, the new system would not do so. The operation would not be hindered by current conditions and would need much less room than is presently used in dumping areas. Under this system it would be possible to obtain special selection of logs right from the sorting grounds. With hazard-free, dry-length sorting and storage and a versatile barging system, this new operation could revolutionize the transportation of logs in our forest industry.

Those involved in the new concept feel that, from years of observation of logging and of transportation of logs on the British Columbia coast, the new invention could be a great stride forward in the economic harvest of trees, and in the reduction of water and beach pollution as a direct result. Best of all, the concept, if put into operation, would create jobs in our shipyards and in the making of grids for platforms which could be used at logging camps and mills. The system could be used on large inland lakes and on some of our rivers. I did want to read here a little bit from the architect, the naval architect, of one of the firms, who has gone through this thing and has enumerated many of the things that I have said today. They state that, "The preliminary investigation indicates that this method has much to be recommended over the existing practices, due to the reasons given above. We will recommend that this system be given further investigation by intensive design work, cost studies, tank testing and model operating experiments." I was very pleased to have had this opportunity to present this to you folks, tonight.

In closing this evening, Mr. Speaker, I would make mention of the fact that this is a progressive Government and that it is willing to take a look at new ideas and new

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concepts. With this type of thinking we can go into the new century of British Columbia with every confidence in the future of our Province.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Burnaby North.

MRS. E.E. DAILLY (Burnaby North): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I always enjoy the last Member's speeches because I feel she is very sincere in her remarks. I just must say, though, to her, that unfortunately I just cannot share her optimism about the general scene in this Province today.

As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I take my place in this Debate this evening with a feeling of great despair and pessimism. For, at a most crucial time in the history of our Province, we have been presented this year with a Budget, which in its overall perspective, fails to relate to solving the very serious problems which confront the citizens in our Province, today, both economically and socially.

Mr. Speaker, I intend to devote my speech to discussing the many areas in which this year's Budget has failed to enunciate desperately needed, constructive policies. First of all, in the economic field. Mr. Speaker, surely, at a time of economic recession, it is exceedingly important for Government to take steps to prime the economy through Government enterprises. Yet, what do we find listed in this year's Budget under Government enterprises? Three items: number one, Government Liquor Control Board, a Government enterprise; number two, the British Columbia Ferries Division, and I would like to point out here that the Honourable Member from Cowichan-Malahat has already pointed out earlier in the Debate that the maintenance and construction of Government ferries, which are basically part of our highways system, are not, and cannot be expected to be, a revenue producing enterprise. Then, the final thing, Mr. Speaker, which we find listed is Curriculum Resources Branch Sales and Rentals. Now, I ask you, Mr. Speaker, book rentals — a Government enterprise! Those are the three listed Government enterprises in the revenue section of the 1971 Budget.

At a time when Government must enter into the economy of the country and this Province, this is what we find. This is the sum total of Government enterprises, as listed, and simply shows that this Government has abdicated its responsibilities to enter into the economic activities of the Province.

Mr. Speaker, with reference to the Budget and our crucial unemployment situation, may I say that I listened with some interest to the Minister of Rehabilitation last week, when he enunciated some form of in-industry training programmes? I am very pleased that he expressed concern for the number of unemployed youth and, indeed, we should all be concerned, with almost 40 per cent of the unemployed work force in the Vancouver area under 25 years of age. However, there is, certainly, no question about the need for the extension of training facilities in British Columbia, for I believe that it was recently reported that available training places in this Province were available for only 12 per cent of the unemployed in British Columbia, whereas in the Province of Ontario it is reported that places for training to meet the needs of people are equal to 60 per cent of the unemployed. So, certainly, the Province of British Columbia must take an active place in the making of training available for those who are unemployed. Of course, if they do not, at the same time, involve themselves in stimulating the economic activity of the Province, just training will not be the answer.

While on the subject of youth, may I say that I was most disconcerted and actually shocked to hear the Honourable Minister of Rehabilitation give his dissertation on the problems of youth, today, and to suggest the simplified answer to many of the problems which youth are confronted with, today, is to increase corporal punishment at home and in the school. Mr. Speaker, I have, in past speeches, urged the Government to remove the use of corporal punishment from the school systems and I now, once again, ask the Honourable Minister of Education to give consideration to this. I would like to remind the House that this was one of the recommendations which came out of that very fine report, Involvement: The Key to Better Schools, commissioned by the B.C. Teachers' Federation.

Now, I do not intend this evening to go, again, into a discussion on the reasons for the removal of corporal punishment. I have elaborated on this in past speeches. Suffice to say, however, that the best argument I now have is after listening to some of the inflamatory and reactionary speeches of the Minister of Rehabilitation and realizing that the Honourable Minister, himself, is a product of the "beat them at home, strap them at school system" according to his own admission.

Mr. Speaker, I was also concerned to hear the Honourable Minister of Public Works get quite concerned about the lack of capital punishment used in our country today. I for one go on record as being against capital punishment for any crime.

Mr. Speaker, in the field of health, this Budget presents one of its greatest disappointments — no policy, no budgeting allowance in the vital and critical areas of intermediate care. Now, the crisis in this area has already been articulated very well by Opposition Members and even by one of your own Government Members. However, I also wish to make some comments on this crisis. Mr. Speaker, the speech, which we heard from the Honourable the Minister of Health last week, was one of the most disappointing speeches we have heard in this whole Debate. With a health care crisis in this Province, today, particularly for the aged, we were simply told by this Minister that it was too expensive for this Government to embark on any new policies in this area. Mr. Speaker, what about a priority home care programme? I understand that the Honourable Minister of Health assured the Registered Nurses' Association of B.C., last November, that provision of home care services throughout this Province would be given top priority in the planning of health care services.

Mr. Speaker, a properly organized home care programme could be a very useful and necessary part of a comprehensive health care delivery system in our Province. A home care programme would have the advantages of providing alternative methods of recuperative care for patients while freeing acute care facilities for those patients who need that type of care. However, Mr. Speaker, a good home care programme means the employment of more nurses, more social workers and more physio therapists. There is nothing in this Budget or in the Minister's Speech to give any hope that this Government is embarking on this much needed programme and I consider this a tragic omission.

Mr. Speaker, a home care programme has been in operation in Britain for a number of years and has proven a great success. Speaking of Britain, Mr. Speaker, we keep hearing from the Government Members, including the Minister of Health, that the British health system is a failure. I would like to read to you, from a very recent Canadian press quote, from the Vancouver Sun, the dateline — the

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place is London, and the headline is "Doctors Learn United Kingdom Benefits." "A five months' exchange of practices between British and Canadian doctors reported in the British Medical Journal resulted in both parties finding, to their surprise, that the much criticized British health service offers many advantages to family physicians. The doctors, both members of group practices, switched between Burlington, Ontario, and the English industrial city of Stockton-on-Tyne, feeling there would be advantages in the mental stimulation involved and in a comparison of primary medical care in the two countries. Now, the British doctor, G.M. Marsh, had heard mostly glowing accounts of financial and other satisfactions in Canadian practice, while J.P. Sweeney from Burlington, Ontario, had received a mostly gloomy picture of socialized medicine. There were no registration problems and each doctor received roughly the income of the man he was replacing. Writing in the current issue of the Weekly Magazine, published by the British Medical Association, the Canadian doctor says, " — and I would like the House to listen to this — "that he had to admit that many aspects of the British health system were, indeed, superior. 'It has been my impression that a group general practice in Great Britain can certainly afford the practicing family doctor a stimulating and rewarding professional and social life'. Sweeney says he returned to Canada feeling quite humbled by aspects of the British system, which he felt could help his group deliver better 'community first' contact health care."

Mr. Speaker, once again, I am very disappointed that the Budget shows no policy for establishing and maintaining an adequate forensic clinic in British Columbia. I spoke on the vital need for this in last year's Debate. I was pleased to see that the brief from the Parent-Teacher Federation, this year, to the Cabinet has also asked for such a clinic. Surely, when one talks of social priorities, a forensic clinic should have top priority, for a forensic clinic has the basic purposes of encouraging research into the cause and the treatment of sexual deviation and of providing specialized rehabilitation services, both for the convicted offenders and for deviates at large in the community, who require help with their problems. Last year, Mr. Speaker, after I spoke on the need for a forensic clinic, I received a letter from a young man, who was in the B.C. Penitentiary for committing sexual offenses. This young man had apparently heard of my speech in the House on the forensic clinic and he wrote to me pleading for action for such a clinic. This young man knew his problem, but he was receiving no treatment in the penitentiary to help him. I asked this Government, when are you going to get moving on this vital, urgent matter?

Mr. Speaker, we are again faced with a Budget by this Government which shows no increased funds in low-cost housing. It's a disgrace that, once again, we note that, last year, of the $5 million allocated for housing and urban renewal, only $3,217,000 were expended. This has been repeated, year after year, by this Government. Yet, in the Minister of Rehabilitation's recommendations, which he made to the Conference of Provincial Ministers of Welfare, he stated that 53 per cent of the social allowance expenditures in B.C. now go to shelter costs. Surely, then, those figures point out that the emphasis on home-ownership policies alone by this Government is not meeting the basic needs of many of our citizens. Equally disappointing is the fact that this Government has again failed to enunciate any policies on land assembly, except what we heard from the Minister of Municipal Affairs, this afternoon, who, once again, said, "Why don't the municipalities do it?" Perhaps the municipalities would be able to do this, Mr. Minister, if they weren't already overburdened with the taxes you have imposed on them.

Mr. Speaker, although we are, of course, pleased to … (interruption). I think somebody said, "What were my ideas on it." I'd like to point out, again, and it has been pointed out before, that the Province of Alberta didn't wait for the municipalities. They, themselves, went into land assembly and they put aside a large sum of money for land assembly. Why can't you?

AN HON. MEMBER: The land's already there.

MRS. DAILLY: You have Crown lands. Mr. Speaker, the other point is, if the Minister of Municipal Affairs is really this concerned, give some leadership then and go to the municipalities. All the municipalities get from this Government are folders and folders on home-ownership, home-ownership. Why don't you help them in low-rental housing and in land assembly? Give them leadership in that area.

Mr. Speaker, although we were very, very pleased to see more money allowances for parks development in this Budget, I would like to bring to the attention of the House, that in the area of recreational grant services to parks and recreations commissions in the Province, I understand that even the very minimal budget allocated for community training programmes was overexpended last year by almost $52,000. Yet, this year, we find the same Budget, even though they overexpended it last year. We are back to the same Budget. Even on top of that, I consider this community training programme very, very essential and I know so do most of the parks and recreation commissions, even though Burnaby, which has a population of over 130,000, receives the sum of $3,500 from this Government. However, they have made use of this money in what they consider to be a very constructive community training programme. The Burnaby Parks Commission — and I'm sorry the Minister responsible is not in the House just now — the Commission was recently informed by the Honourable Minister of Travel and Industry that all grants will be terminated under this programme, as he is planning to institute a new programme becoming effective April 1, 1971.

Mr. Speaker, I'd like to quote to you from a letter sent to the Honourable Minister by the chairman of the Burnaby Parks Commission, in which he states: "Dear Mr. Kiernan: We wish to express strong objection to the unfortunate timing which has been followed in the change of the policy and its implementation. You have mentioned that a new programme will be instituted and will become effective April 1, 1971. Now, if the previous programme of grants, which was to encourage communities to hire staff and to stimulate attention to recreational programming, performed its function and the programmes were instituted, supported by the grants, the withdrawing of these grants before a new programme is established, certainly, undercuts some of the previous progress made. Furthermore, as you know, the 1971 Budget must receive extensive attention in November, 1970, with final approval occurring only in 1971 and, now, to be informed by the Minister that the previous grants will not be forthcoming for 1971 and that another grant, decided on another basis, may or may not be available to us later in the year, places an obstacle to efficient and meaningful planning at the local level. If our 1971 budget is to continue the programmes motivated by your previous grants, then we

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must be able to count on further grants under the new programme. If further grants are not to be made to us, then we are faced with discontinuing either the new programme or else other programmes. It is easy to say that we should expand our budget, but 1971 is likely to be a year in which all budgets are trimmed at the local level. You have mentioned areas of a new grants programme which will receive emphasis and that you had hoped to announce details last month. As yet we have received no information." I phoned them yesterday and they still have received no information on the whole new grants structure.

AN HON. MEMBER: What a way to run a Government.

MRS. DAILLY: Exactly. Once again, Mr. Speaker, this letter simply points out the arbitrary manner in which this Government changes policies without consultation with the local authorities, placing, as the letter stated so well, "an obstacle to efficient and meaningful planning at the local level." I found it rather ironic to listen to the Minister of Public Works, this afternoon, when discussing the B.C. Building and what's moving in it and why we haven't heard anything about it, he said, "We believe in long-term planning." Well, if you believe in long-term planning for the B.C. Building, why are you not giving the municipalities and school boards the same opportunity to plan and may I say, the universities also, who are definitely suffering, because they have to work on a year-by-year basis? This is a very, essential crucial issue, which faces the universities, school boards, hospitals and all the regional districts. They are not given an opportunity to plan, except on a year-by-year basis. We see this pattern of Government, without consultation with those locally involved, repeated and repeated, in every department of Government and, certainly, the outstanding example, this year, was the Minister of Municipal Affairs' edict regarding the city status for Burnaby, without consultation with the Burnaby Council or its citizens.

Mr. Speaker, I'd now like to turn to a few remarks on the educational budget for this year. I intend to reserve most of my remarks on education until the estimates for the department are discussed, with the hope, Mr. Speaker, that, perhaps, just once, in this House, we will be able to get into some philosophical discussion with the Minister on the whole educational scene, today, and its relevancy to our students in the public school systems in this Province.

However, at this time, I would like to comment on one matter of great concern in the educational area. It's only one matter of great concern. We'll reserve the rest for the estimates. The concern is over regional colleges, Mr. Speaker. Our Party has always taken the position that regional colleges should not be financed by property taxation, but should be financed through general revenue. Certainly, Mr. Speaker, as more and more of these regional colleges spring up, our case for removal of property taxation becomes even more justifiable. Let's just look at last year's figures. Last year, the regional colleges in existence budgeted $9.8 million, of which $3.14 million, or 32 per cent of the total, were raised by local levies. Let's remember that part of the Province's share is picked up by this Provincial Government and, I hope, when the Minister's estimates come up, he will break down those figures for us. However, it should be noted that the local share of the district's total college costs — I'm talking about the general cost, Mr. Minister, — he's writing it down and I want to be sure that he gets it down accurately. It should be noted that the local shares of districts' total college costs range from a low of 28.12 per cent for Selkirk College, to a high of 60.95 per cent for Mainline-Cariboo College. That's quite a range.

I'd like to draw to your attention, Mr. Speaker, the chaotic state of the financing for the new Douglas College. The Douglas College covers the school districts of Burnaby, Coquitlam, Delta, Langley, New Westminster, Richmond and Surrey. Certainly, it was needed — a college was needed, no question about it, over two thousand students were waiting to attend such a college. But let's look at the history of this college. Mr. Speaker, because of lack of approval for capital financing from the Government, or the inability to receive assurances of capital financing, the college council had to set about to find $950,000 of capital assets to get some kind of campus going. This is what I have been given from the college council and I hope the Minister will be able to correct it, because I think it is a dreadful situation. This sum is being amortized out of operating funds at a rate reported to be equal to or in excess of 14 per cent. This Provincial Government, therefore, is responsible for this type of temporary financing at 14 per cent for a regional college and directly responsible for the increase and unnecessary load on the taxpayers. This is why I found the Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs' speech so ironic, because he went on at great length about the great contribution this Government makes in financing school districts and regional hospitals and in keeping interest rates down. Why does this situation, then, happen with a regional college in the lower mainland — 14 per cent interest, temporary borrowing?

The irony of all this, Mr. Speaker, is that, on page 23, of the Budget Speech, the Premier reports that advanced payments are being made by the Federal Government in the remittance of income taxes and also $11 million in advance payments under the Federal Technical and Vocational Training Act. There's that bad, terrible, old Federal Government handing over advanced payments to the Provinces. We never hear you mention this when you are condemning the Federal Government. Why, then, can't the Province of British Columbia do the same for its regional school districts instead of placing them in the drastic position of temporary borrowing at 14 per cent? This also brings to mind, in listening to the Minister of Municipal Affairs, this afternoon, when he said he was very concerned about creating a fourth level of government. I think many of us are, but, Mr. Minister, I am wondering which is the worse of the two — a fourth level of government or creating a regional district that is responsible to no one. I am very much concerned. Who are these regional councils and regional districts basically responsible to? I think we are going to have to weigh that. As I said earlier, the whole formula for the financing for the regional colleges is a disgrace and should be scrapped. This regional college formula is simply another example of this Government abrogating their fiscal responsibilities and dumping them onto regional districts.

Mr. Speaker, one increase in the Budget, which we are not happy to see unless, of course, it involves increased payments, is the welfare budget. As we have been given no hope from the Minister of Welfare that payments will be increased, it simply means that the Government is expecting an increasing load of welfare recipients this year. Now a fair proportion of welfare recipients are the deserted wives and, yesterday, we heard much talk in the House of their problems. I would, Mr. Speaker, like to now put forward a proposal regarding the maintenance of the deserted wife, which has been made by the Family Law Project of the

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Ontario Law Commission and has been endorsed by the Royal Commission of the Status of Women. Briefly, it is that there be established in the Province an assessment branch of the Family Courts, which would deal exclusively with alimony and maintenance payments. If a deserted wife does not take the initiative herself in recovering maintenance, she would be entitled to apply to this assessment branch for an immediate emergency payment, if necessary and then, also, from the branch for periodic payments, the specific amount of which would be calculated having regard to both her need and her husband's ability to pay. The funds received from the husband would be paid into the branch, and the branch would also carry out the necessary Court procedures. I think that is a very important thing, because all of us have had women come to us who are completely lost in the Court. They don't know how to handle the situation and they have no proper legal advice. It would continue to pay maintenance to the wife even if the husband disappears. It is also proposed that the powers of the Court be increased to ensure more effective enforcement of maintenance orders. I sincerely hope that the Government will give some consideration, at least, to this proposal because, to date, they have come up with no concrete solution to this very, very serious problem. May I say, Mr. Speaker, that I realize that maintenance and welfare are not desirable as permanent arrangements. The deserted spouse should be helped to become self-supporting and here is where the importance of better paid work outside the home, establishment of day care centres and the promotion of training facilities are all part of the answer.

Mr. Speaker, in conclusion tonight I wish to express my concern that, in the Budget regarding the public health services, I see no signs of increased family planning or birth control clinics for this Province. Now, 1, as many citizens are, am greatly concerned with the population problem and the very pressing need to limit, now, our population growth. My suggestions are, first of all, that abortion must be removed from the Criminal Code and the matter of abortion should be decided by the woman, for I adhere to the philosophy that a woman's body is her own private property. It belongs to her and she should not have to share jurisdiction over it with the Criminal Code. Also, Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that abortions are largely the result of three failures of the health profession in Government: first of all, failure to provide all women of child-bearing age and their consorts with detailed, accurate information about methods of conception control; failure to provide readily available conception control methods for all women of child-bearing age and their consorts; and failure to devise methods of conception control, which are both failure proof and acceptable. I urge this Government, Mr. Speaker … (interruption). I think there is something you can do about it. I urge this Government … (interruption). I'll come to that, Mr. Attorney-General. This is where I hope the Attorney-General will listen — I urge this Government, Mr. Speaker, to cooperate with the Federal Government in providing more family planning and birth control clinics. Once again, I ask the Department of Education to give leadership and approval to the establishment of sex and birth control educational programmes in our schools. The Parent Teacher Federation wants this, parents want it and, yet, this Government refuses to give the leadership in this area. I agree completely with Health Minister John Munro, who said that the aim of the Federal Programme on family planning information focuses on reducing the incidence of unwanted children, of child neglect, abandonment, desertion, welfare dependency and child abuse.

Mr. Speaker, I have attempted to document my reasons for disillusionment with this Government's Budget. It is not meeting the high priority needs of the people of British Columbia. Thank you.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Saanich and the Islands.

MR. J.D. TISDALLE (Saanich and the Islands): Brothers and sisters. We are certainly pleased on behalf of Saanich and the Islands, the California of Canada, the banana belt, the place where everybody wants to come, and everybody who is there hopes you don't get there, because they would like to have it for themselves. The most beautiful place on the continent and probably the whole world is out there — it's called Saanich and the Islands.

Listening to the Honourable Member from Burnaby North, reminded me of a story about the boy when he had heard that the school had burned down. He said, "You know, we have been preparing for that all year." I think that's what the Opposition has been preparing for, hoping the depression would hit, hoping they could make use of a disaster programme that they might have in their hip pockets. They have been wanting to drag out for the people of this Province for 18 years a disaster programme. It's never happened. As far back as 1960, they were forecasting this Government would never make a go of the ferry system and, before that, it was the PGE that was a calamity and, later than that, they were saying we should never develop the Peace River power. Then along came the two-river programme. They were always forecasting calamity.

Now, they feel that calamity has come, because, in the Federal field, definitely in the Federal field, they are happy that there are around 800,000 people out of work across Canada tonight. They can kind of lick their chops and roll their hands in glee that a lot of people are out of work, in an "I told you so" prophecy. When we were proposing the Budgets that were to keep this economy rolling, we were told we were going to expend our energies too quickly, that we were going to rid the country of its natural resources and that there was no concern at all for the jobs and the secondary industries that would be growing out of these things. One of the honourable Members mentioned that there were no Government enterprises, and I am sorry that she left her seat so quickly. I don't usually drive the women out of the House like that, although the gallery left before I started. The two previous speakers seem to have given them all they wanted and away they ran. So I am left to speak to you. In fact, Mr. Speaker, you are such a kind listening audience up there. I feel that meditative look in your eyes. I'm sure if the whole place emptied and they all went home, we'd still get it on recording and you and I would get this message across, Mr. Speaker. We believe each other, anyway. Long suffering — well, that pays, too, when you've got an Opposition like we have.

We talk about Government enterprises — this Government started programmes, about ten years ago, when we were being called a "blacktop" Government, a Government that started programmes for people. Now, we are being accused that people don't count and enterprises don't count. Now, which way do you want it? Which way can you have it? — $16.7 million for highways, this year. That's upgrading a lot of ungraded roads, I trust, by the Minister of Highways. That is a programme for people, because I haven't seen anything

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else other than people with automobiles driving our roads. We have a programme for people and I believe the greatest enterprise that any Government can have, and this Government has recognized it from day one since we have been in office, is the programme for the education for our young people — $404 million for education. That's not peanuts, as someone over there was trying to make out. That's a programme that is an enterprising programme for people who will be able to carry your pension, some day, when you need it, too. They are the ones who are going to pay for the retirement for the rest of us, some day, when we give up and are prepared to rest on our laurels.

There is a programme for people, too, in health and social services. This is a Government that is enterprise at heart, when it treats the older and the people who are not well as equals and $495 millions are being spent there.

You can go on down through the list of this Budget. This is a Budget that is an enterprising Budget. It's a blockbuilding Budget. It's a building Budget that will be going on for many years from now. It reminds me, in fact, of Lynamen, who was the engineer and scientist who worked so hard on Saturn No. 5. When he explained the tremendous development of science and ability of human beings to put together this tremendous energetic vehicle, he said, "Go to the nearest freeway and stop two thousand cars and put them over here. Go to the nearest trainyards and get 55 big tank cars and put them over here. Fill those 55 tank cars with 423 degrees of liquid hydrogen. Take all the rivers, all the running water of North America, and double it, put it through a generator, a hydro development that is equal to 82 Hoover Dams. Then take all of those automobiles, all of those tank cars, all of this development and stand it on end 38 stories high and 38 feet across. When you have done that take a hair out of your head, you people that aren't bald, and split it in half, divide that hair, stand the whole mass on that and you have an idea of what science and what men did." Then he said, "In as long as it takes to light a candle, 180 million horsepower go into action; 6 minutes later, at 17,500 miles an hour, man has developed the ability to guide that vehicle at a tolerance of 2 to 3 ft. per second, per 25,000 ft."

Now, why did I tell you that story? I told you that story so that you might realize that when man stood back alongside of the locomotive, your grandfather and mine, and he first heard the noise of that locomotive and he saw the steam and the energy, what did he see? Did his imagination see Chicago? Did it see the great empires that would build up to administer those great railroads? Did he see the settlement of the West? Did he see the great cities and immigration programmes? No, he did not see them and neither did many people after him. Many people, today, who laugh at that shot to the moon the other day, that soft landing on the moon, do not see any more than what our great-grandfathers saw when they stood alongside that locomotive.

Tonight I'll give you an example, too, of that blindness. The Opposition members, for 18 years, have not seen the extent of the great ability of these Budgets to produce what has happened. Someone said, "Well, anybody could have done it." Well, give us some more "anybody's" like our Premier, then. It takes vision and fortitude to be able to do with this Province … When it was so far in debt, when it had more liabilities than it had assets in the Treasury, when you had to even earmark your revenue to be able to encourage the bankers and the loan sharks in New York to go for any loans for this Province, when those things existed, when those dark days were in this Province, when they couldn't see over the mountains from Ottawa, and they still can't see over them, when those things were happening in this Province, a man came to the forefront.

When they say that anybody could have done it, let me tell you this, that, while they were saying, "Nobody could do it," the enterprises that this man was putting on the books … When you people over there and your leaders long before, were saying that nobody could do it, that it would fail, that it was impossible, this man, who is the Prime Minister of this Province today, did it and is continuing to do it. I am telling you that, if there is ever living proof that this Government did not fail, it's the fact that over in that riding of Saanich, the longest term of office has been served by the tremendous goodwill of those people. When men who ran against me and, one time, represented that riding … Talk about tape recordings, I'd love to replay that one, the one on CKDA or CJVI, when the incumbent member said he was so sorry that the people in Saanich had failed to use their intelligence. That's the kind of …  (interruption). Yes, it certainly was to the people, not to me. It doesn't matter about me. But it certainly does to the people.

So, we have some programmes we want to talk to you about, Mr. Speaker. These programmes that are on the books and in the mail for this Province, they will take care of the unemployed of this Province as we begin to talk positively about the good things of this Province. Too long, we have been talking negatively and talking down. I said one other time in this Legislature, and I'll repeat it, that when I was in New Zealand, the people on those two little islands boasted so much it made me sick at dinner time, lunch time and breakfast. When you got into Sydney, Australia, it was the same way. Those Australians had nothing but good to say about their cities, their State and their country. Once you get down in the States, just next to us, and I've been in the Legislatures of Washington, Utah, Oregon and California, those people know how to talk about their State and boost it. They are not knockers. But, come to this Province and what do you have? Not only knockers but apologizers for our success. Always trying to belittle and to knock down what has been such a tremendous accomplishment that, when I talk to senators and those in authority in the United States in high places of Government, they said, "Your Government is to be envied all through the United States." The fact is I am getting so many calls … I spend a good deal of time amongst businessmen south of the border because I think we've got something to sell. I'm not afraid of American dollars up here. I am fed up to the teeth with people who are always wanting to take the blood count to see what the racial origin of money is. I agree with our Honourable Leader of the Opposition, and there are other honourable Members in this House tonight, that he's right in trying to get industry to come into this country. I care not where it comes from. I don't think we need to take the racial blood count of any of the money that comes here. It is always changed into our denominations, anyway. All we are doing is increasing the velocity of our turnover of our own dollars, here, as we turn on this economy and put people to work. I am saying that, even now, I am receiving so many requests, I left 1969 Budgets down there. That's all I had, 1969, and 1968 even. People are writing to me now asking me for an up-to-date Budget of this Province, from all over the United States. They still write to me from New Zealand. Just the other day I received a letter from New Zealand. I thought I had some reciprocity going with a delightful, young girl down there in the sea

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world and, then, all of a sudden, she wrote and said, "Would you explain the philosophy of the Government of British Columbia?" So I wrote a four-page letter to her and I never got another reply. That shot that.

That's a good Budget. I've got a 1971 Budget, here. We've got a lot of enterprises to talk about.

I want to talk to you for a moment or two about the Department of Agriculture, but not under that department, because I want to be able … (interruption). Yes, all the lambs are in Salt Spring Island and the shellfish are all out there waiting to be taken.

I want to talk to you, tonight, Mr. Speaker, about the Department of Agriculture, and I chose this opportunity to do it so that I won't be limited to the department. First of all, I would say that we should seriously consider the interpretation of the Department of Agriculture as a title. I believe there should be a new title to that department. The Minister is doing a very fine job. He has not been reluctant at all to move into areas that are difficult to administer — marketing, etc. But agriculture no longer is identifiable as the main function of that department — to produce food. It might well be called, Mr. Speaker, food culture, I don't know.

I want to talk tonight about another aspect that has been getting a lot of play, mostly because of the worry that we may lose our ecology, that we may lose our natural environment. We have a lot of complaints and concern about our water, our aqua resources. There is an area of development that is just simply stupendous. It would probably stretch your imagination to even begin to think of what the capacity of the ocean is to produce food, even to what you would say when we gave you the illustration of what the people did not see when they saw the first locomotive. Food in the surrounding waters of British Columbia is unlimited. We think of the outmoded ways of going out to sea to get the fish, that our native people used to wait for to come to them. They went down to the rivers to meet them. They are well trained. I think they, maybe, had a way of training them. They always came home. Their food went out to grow and develop and then came home to them. Now, we go out further and further to apprehend them and it's more costly because of competition of other countries which get there before us.

I believe, and propose to you, tonight, Mr. Speaker, that there is a tremendous area of aquaculture of which the surface hasn't been touched. The waves are not even rippled. We have areas where we are concerned about pollution and we think that, if we can just save these waters so that they are in their natural condition and habitat and there is no change, that we will have, somehow, secured a domestic supply of fish that will be sufficient. Let me compare it to trying to have sufficient meat in this country out of the buffalo, without domestic animals. That's about the same as the fish industry is, today, if you try to use the buffalo on the plain to supply the needs of the meat market, today. It has been discovered, after a great amount of research in other countries as well as right to the south of us. There are illustrations there that are fabulous, where they started with trout that were producing 2½ lbs. at four years — 2½ lbs. and 450 eggs a month. In a few years, they developed a trout that was three times that size. In about ten years of research and two years of upgrading, they were able to produce those same fish — silver salmon and others — to where they were 20 lbs. in two years. They call it a "20-ton" fish, because, now, a female can produce in one year sufficient to her prodigy to be 20 tons. The Lummi Indians began this project in cooperation with the Federal Government.

I am calling upon the Province to begin its own programmes and not wait for the foot-dragging of the Federal Government so that we can begin our own rehabilitation of these waters and do projects as have been done in the United States. They have been able to dam up gulfs and bays and be able to put 750 acres in one area. When they have done this, they have been able to produce, Mr. Speaker, so much fish of a superior quality, without the toxic poisons of the ocean. Our waters are relatively clean here and we could use some of our islands that have little or no habitation on them. Some of those gulfs and bays on those islands are extremely adaptable to diking off and being able to supply and stock them with salmon eggs and we could have fish farms here.

When the Federal Government is taking the fishing fleet out of existence, buying all ships under $12,000, this year, and taxing the fishing industry to do it, to buy their own ship back, when they are removing the fishing industry because of the lack of the product, and we have these resources inside our protected areas where we are concerned about pollution, we would have the biggest tourist industry you ever saw. People would come to see this aquaculture and development of a resource that would not be contaminated. You could allow the fish to be released for sports fishermen, too, the same as game farms do, from time to time. But just think of the tremendous advantages, against the loss of life and the equipment that goes into competing on the high seas with the great ships from Russia.

Another thing I noted as I was reading the Pacific Northwest Sea was that it went on to say that the source of food that was used for those fish back in the 1940's, was the recycling of salmon that had been caught and their remains. They found that the fish didn't do well on this, that they contacted the same disease that some of the fish had that were being fed to them, so they lost a good many of their small feed salmon. They found that they could feed these fish on hake. Now, you'll notice that Russia is coming into our waters only on the pretense of their ability to catch the groundfish and the hake. Maybe, we are letting go what we think is a cheap commodity of little use. Maybe, we are selling off at a cheap rate, to another nation, some of the finest food to grow and domesticate our salmon here and keep the fish at home. This is the industry that would recycle a lot of labour itself.

The other thing that we have, that goes along with aqua farming, and we have leases to this ability, Mr. Speaker, that is the harvesting of seaweed. Many of the countries around the world have launched full-scale programmes to use seaweed in many forms, not only for food and fodder for animals, but also for fertilizer and in the field of drugs, as well. They have found that strontium 90 is not to be found in it, that mercury doesn't inhabit it, and that you can do many things with it that are of tremendous help to the people. I would ask that the Government launch a programme here that might put together a great work force, having our own mothership out on these waters, if it has to be a Government mothership. Let the people use the small boats and so on. Many of our drifters, so-called, across the land now with higher education, educated out of the field of using their own hands, would like to go out onto these waters around the islands and in through the inlet and do these kind of things on the open waters. I have talked to hundreds of them, who said they would like to do things like this. Even if it only is a bare existence, these people want to get close to

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nature and they like to go out and harvest with their hands. I was at the home the other day of members of the so-called Hippie clan and this couple, in making its own food, its own jams and its own bread, were living — strangely enough, these people that we despise — on a vital back to nature, that is closer in form than what our ancestors seemingly were — the pioneers — and they have done it willingly. The sacrifice is tremendous. Most of us wouldn't live that way and wouldn't eat the food. They look healthy and they feel healthy, their education is high, but they don't want to use it in that form. If they were able to establish an industry that allowed them in the summertime up there on the sandy beaches of Long Beach and so on … most of them can acquire the equipment for picking up seaweed and for under-sea diving and so on. They love doing this kind of thing. Maybe, we should be initiating a programme like that. A lot of our native people, I neglected to say, with this First Citizens' Fund, should be put to work in the culture of salmon and fish. I believe out here the Cole Bay Indians put before this Government a tremendous plan for tourism and the building of a native village — all of these things along with the fish culture, the domestication of the salmon, could be used right on their own doorstep so that we would be, at last, launching a programme in which their native instincts would be usable. I recommend it to the Government. I trust that real research … someone, this afternoon, the Minister of Municipalities, said and I like the suggestion, he said that the knowledge, the ability and the authority of different departments doing similar research should be used for any projects in the region. I'm calling on those resources to be put to the use of projects such as I have mentioned tonight. You can find the very things I spoke of, here, where it says, "Now, Rainbows ranging in weight not from 1½ lbs., but from 15 to 20 pounds at age three years are quite common among university breeding stock." It goes on to say that they have "… gone up to hatching 21,280 eggs per salmon." So there's an exciting area over which we have precedence. Others have already gone the route, so let's not overlook it.

I'd like to say something also regarding the new fund for alcoholism, drugs and cigarettes for research and rehabilitation. I am certainly fully in favour of the banning of advertising but I can't say anything on that. But I can say something on this. It has been brought to my attention by a former member of the Alcoholic Foundation that he has made certain observations of charges such as the incompetence of the foundation, at present, in every phase of its work. So, having said these things — Mr. Clarkson is the man who gave it to me — I want to ask the Government if charges of this nature — after all, I could not care whether … really, to me, it's not too important whether these remarks are altogether right or wrong. I have come to the conclusion that, after years and years of watching the function of the certain vehicles in administration they are at cross purposes in this area.

I would like to recommend tonight, Mr. Speaker, that this whole area of the use of these funds, lest they drop into the hands of those who make opportunities for themselves on special pet projects, such as the Bonde's … we don't want these funds falling into the hands of such people. The Federal Government may not care, but we care. We care for people. I am asking the appropriate Minister to refer this to an appropriate committee, preferably welfare and education, for a thorough investigation as to the performance, of these groups which have been acting for years on behalf of these people, although we saw very little result. They admit their inability to cope with the problem. I am not in any way deprecating what they have done. They've done it with an earnestness of purpose that cannot be denied. Maybe the tools are wrong, maybe the approach is wrong. These are the things we should be asking in committee and I believe that they would like an opportunity to give an opinion before a committee of this House. I trust that they will be given that opportunity, because I am afraid that those funds will fall into the hands of opportunists, as I said, that have special pet projects.

This brings me to vocational schools, colleges and regional colleges, and the former Member had something to say about that. She didn't like the financing and so on. But I want to say that when we began that approach and the Minister of the day mentioned in this House that he had visited to the south even and looked at regional colleges there, he made it very plain and clear that local participation was an additive that was necessary and good. I am all for it, even though it means selling a bit, it means getting down to the grass roots and disclosing. Maybe the regional college of Victoria failed to disclose some of the things that it should have, but I am glad that it is set up. I'm glad it's here. We need our vocational schools as well, but I would call to your attention that the Federal Government, in emphasizing this programme, has done so in such a direction that it is not meeting the need. It's gone off in one direction too far, without the corresponding balance of the colleges now coming into being, which will upgrade the education of the people who need to take vocational courses. I am glad to see the two-pronged approach now for the upgrading of our people who wish to move on into other areas of job opportunities. I think the emphasis is being fairly placed on the regional colleges.

I deplore the lay-offs that were recently voiced in the lumber industry in this city. I think it's a tragedy that it should come at this time of the year, when we are in a Province which enjoys no seasonal setbacks in the building trades. I call on the Federal Government to loosen up on building funds. If ever there was a time, it is now to start building houses for people. Some of the Opposition can only think about low lease and rentals. I believe that the young people of this Province deserve the best and that's to own their own homes. This Government has made that opportunity for many of them available, with some of the best legislation that has been put on the books of this Province. So I urge the Federal Government to loosen up, get into an industry that puts people to work on all phases in a community. There is no job-producing ability better than house building, home building, and what a thrill it is to the new home-owner, too.

I want to suggest to the Minister of Industrial Development that he assist, in every way possible, a film industry to be established in this area of Saanich. I have talked to film producers, some of them, even, today, circulating around here in this city. They always compliment this area as being a tremendous area suitable for a lot of outdoor and indoor film production. We have films that have been produced in beautiful British Columbia. Many of the private institutions and the private industries here are interested in this industry as well. They like to sell their wares and this is the way to do it. I would like to ask the Minister of Trade and Industry to help develop in this area a film industry, because I understand, Vancouver and its film industry its facilities are completely saturated to the top. There is no room for any more. We could well interest people of means to assist in doing this because there is a wonderful income to be had in

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it, I am sure of that.

I was reading the other day about the medical profession. I was interested in that profession because I've often thought that, probably, the real estate profession and politics is considered to be not on the top of the totem. But the medical profession, to me, I thought was shining on top of the pinnacle, right up there on the pedestal. Then, I happened to read, in relationship to the debates that have been taking place here with the Minister of Health and Hospitals…I happened to read, in a recent publication of the National Geographic, that a picture was taken of a medical magazine. In this medical magazine, it said that doctors of the 16th Century prescribed for ailments things, such as frogs' spawn and barnyard hen manure. I couldn't help think, Mr. Speaker, that some of the remarks with regards to the Minister of Health and Hospitals were reminiscent of the medicine of that day. Thank you.

The House adjourned at 10:14 p.m.