The committee met at 8:04 a.m.

[J. Routledge in the chair.]

J. Routledge (Chair): Welcome, everybody. This is a continuation of the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services. We are reviewing, annually, the statutory officers of British Columbia, their three-year rolling service plans, annual reports and budgetary esti­mates for fiscal 2022-2023.

[8:05 a.m.]

Before turning it over to the Conflict of Interest Commissioner, I would like to acknowledge that we are gathered here on the traditional, unceded territory of the Lək̓ʷəŋin̓əŋ-speaking people, the Esquimalt and Songhees Nations.

Over to you, Commissioner.

Review of Statutory Officers

OFFICE OF THE CONFLICT
OF INTEREST COMMISSIONER

V. Gray: Madam Chair, Mr. Deputy Chair, members of the committee, I thank you for this opportunity to talk about the conflict-of-interest office.

I’m expecting Carol Hoyer to be on the Zoom. She is my office’s executive coordinator, and she has the greatest familiarity with budget matters. Oh, I see Carol now on my console.

Thank you for having me appear virtually. I’d prefer to be in person. As you may have heard, I’ve recently had my right knee replaced, and I’m just recovering from surgery. Next time I hope to be very nimble and to dance into the committee meeting.

I also wanted to acknowledge, with sorrow, the impact of the atmospheric river on so many of your constituents and, perhaps, many of you as well. These are, indeed, trying times.

There are four topics I would like to address today. First is a short reminder of the role of my office. Second, a quick summary of the highlights of our 2020 annual report. Third, a discussion of our work and expenditures so far in 2021. Finally, a discussion of my expectations and of the risks for the future.

First, a quick review of the role of my office. The conflict-of-interest office is B.C.’s smallest statutory office, but we have an important role. We seek to maintain the integrity of the members and to enhance the public perception of the integrity of the decisions of the Legislature and its various decision-making entities. Our role is set out in the Members’ Conflict of Interest Act, and our work focuses on three things.

First is helping MLAs to understand the conflict rules and the other rules in the act and assisting them to comply with those rules. We do that by giving advice, confidentially, often in writing and often in short time frames when issues arise.

[8:10 a.m.]

Second, we help MLAs navigate the financial disclosure requirements of the act.

Third, we respond to complaints and requests for public opinions, which can come from MLAs or from members of the public. In addition, we work with comparable offices across Canada in coordinating the development of best practices.

Secondly, I’m now turning to a quick summary of the highlights of our 2020 annual report. Our 2020 budget was about $735,000. We were under budget in 2020 by about $100,000. That was about 16 percent. It was primarily because we did not spend as much as we anticipated in travel expenses and professional fees. Because of the COVID pandemic, we shifted to working primarily from our homes rather than from our Menzies Street offices.

In 2020, I did not meet with every MLA. That’s because the election was called when I was in the process of the annual meetings. In 2020, about two-thirds of the meetings which proceeded, proceeded virtually.

Once the election was called, there were legally no MLAs, so we could not provide opinions to MLAs. Even so, over all of 2020, we had 76 requests for advice, which is about the historical annual average. We used the election period to update several of the bulletins we provide to MLAs with general advice.

Our office received 12 requests in 2020 for the commissioner’s opinion pursuant to section 19. Most of those requests were from the public. Most of them were non-jurisdictional. What I mean by that is that it’s not something I can deal with. Many of them were, for example, complaints about government staff — nothing to do with MLAs, so outside my jurisdiction. So there were no inquires in 2020.

Thirdly, I’m now turning to 2021, so far. Our budget of about $750,000 annually remains the smallest of all the statutory officers. As of the end of the second quarter, which was September 30, 2021, we were forecasting being about $95,000 under budget for the year.

As of the end of October 2021, so ten months into the calendar year, we had received about 190 requests for advice. Many of these come directly from MLAs, but sometimes they come from constituency assistants or caucus chairs. Most advice is confirmed in writing.

The 190 requests for advice over the ten months so far is more than double the 76 requests in all of 2020, which, as I said, was about the historical annual average. We’re pleased that MLAs are being proactive in seeking advice. We attribute the significant increase in requests for advice to the significant number of new MLAs, 26, and to a culture of seeking advice.

I completed the annual meetings with each of the 87 MLAs earlier this year. All of those meetings were virtual, owing to the COVID pandemic.

Also, so far this year, we’ve had a staff change. Four people work in our office. Two people work full-time. That’s our executive coordinator, Carol, and our legal officer, Alyne Mochan. One person works 75 percent of full-time, and that’s me. One person works 60 percent of full-time. That’s our administrative assistant.

Amber Derricourt, who was our administrative assistant for about nine years, retired at the end of September. She was a delightful co-worker, and we were very sorry to see her go but happy for her to move to this new chapter in her life. We hired Angela Koutougos as our new administrative assistant on a contract basis.

We normally attend conferences involving others who do similar work to keep abreast of developments and best practices. So far, in 2021, the conferences have proceeded virtually, so we have not incurred the related travel expenses.

Lastly, I turn to a discussion of expectations and risks for the future. My expectation is that there will be little or no change to our budget or our work, generally. With the help of Angela, our new administrative assistant, we’re working to improve the forms which MLAs must send us so that they work easily with the Microsoft 365 environment.

[8:15 a.m.]

I think many MLAs prefer to meet with me virtually because of the ease of scheduling, so I anticipate that many of the meetings in 2022 will be virtual meetings.

I expect that at some point, the conferences which interest us will proceed in person and that we will incur the related travel expenses. I also anticipate that at some point in the future we will be consulting extensively with the Ministry of the Attorney General and a legislative committee to update the Members’ Conflict of Interest Act — either in accordance with the legislative review which occurred about nine years ago, in 2012, or if there is a new legislative review.

The unpredictable risk is that of an investigation and inquiry, which requires my office to retain outside legal counsel and, therefore, to incur expense. So far, in the nearly two years that I’ve been commissioner, none of the complaints I’ve received have warranted an investigation and inquiry. Looking historically, the office has had about one per year. I hope that the significant increase in MLAs seeking opinions in advance will reduce or eliminate the need for an investigation and inquiry, and for incurring the related expense.

This committee asked me previously how much money my office had spent on investigations and inquiries. I explained that some matters can be handled by my office without incurring extra expense. A good example is the inquiry regarding now minister Kahlon, relating to his father’s taxi licence. My office did not incur any outside costs for that investigation and inquiry. But we checked the records regarding two previous matters. These examples will give you a rough, and unfortunate, idea of the range of expenses.

One matter was initiated by Democracy Watch. It involved Christy Clark and proceeded to hearings in the B.C. Supreme Court and the B.C. Court of Appeal. Then Commissioner Fraser required outside legal counsel to handle the court proceedings. The cost — it was in 2017 — was about $38,000.

A much more expensive matter related to then Premier Glen Clark. It proceeded to hearings before then Commissioner Oliver, and he incurred costs for legal counsel and court reporters. The total, incurred over about two years — it was 20 years ago, in the years 2000 and 2001 — was about $440,000. Again, that’s in year 2000 dollars. If it were a similar-sized proceeding, I imagine that it would be significantly more expensive in 2021 dollars.

In short, it’s difficult to predict how much an investigation and inquiry will cost. It depends on the nature of the complaint and on what must be investigated. The big expenses are in the investigation part and the hearing part, interviewing witnesses. That’s what drove up the costs related to Premier Clark. Whether there are related court hearings is also a factor, although the decisions from our courts would have the effect of discouraging any challenge of my discretion as a commissioner. Of course, that doesn’t put off some people, and sometimes there will be court proceedings in any event.

In conclusion, it has been my honour to serve as commissioner for nearly two years, since January 6, 2020. It has been my delight to work with the staff in the office. They are experienced, professional, good-natured, cooperative, creative and fun.

Thank you for your attention. I’m happy to answer any questions you may have, with Carol’s assistance.

J. Routledge (Chair): Thank you, Victoria.

Are there any questions from the committee?

B. Stewart (Deputy Chair): Thank you, Commissioner, for your work and your report and for keeping us in line and keeping those big expenditures out.

You have a number…. You mentioned about the underspend this year, with travel and professional fees. Is the number that’s in the budget for professional fees there for the purpose of what you just touched on: about issues with members where it ends up being something that you can’t sort out?

[8:20 a.m.]

V. Gray: I’ll turn to Carol.

Carol, you’re nodding. Is that some…?

C. Hoyer: Yes. It would fall under there.

V. Gray: What do we have? What is the amount? I’m just looking for it.

C. Hoyer: Is it 55,000 in there?

V. Gray: Yeah, professional services.

C. Hoyer: We’ve got a good amount in there.

B. Stewart (Deputy Chair): So just to be clear, the amount you spent last year…. The actual number, to date, is $1,000, and 55 is what’s budgeted.

V. Gray: Yeah.

B. Stewart (Deputy Chair): Very good. If there is a case such as the one you mentioned with former Premier Clark, is it in the act that you can spend whatever is necessary?

V. Gray: I don’t think it says that. It says I’m required to do various things. I understand the practice has been to come back to the committee. I understand that the committee has always agreed with it, but I haven’t looked for that precise issue. I think I’m required to do it.

M. Starchuk: Thank you, Victoria, for your report. Having your right knee replaced is not a fun thing. I’m a right knee person as well.

My question is: with all of the hybrid work that you’re talking about, is there going to be a shift in the way that your office functions, moving forward?

V. Gray: I think we’re going to move forward, overall, in a hybrid way. We are working more from home, but we are going into the office as well. Me, not so much with my knee, but the others are going in. It’s something that lends itself…. A lot of our work lends itself to remote work. But the documentation, the financial disclosure — we’re moving electronically, but there’s a lot of…. We do keep paper files of those things, and in many ways, it’s easier for staff to work on that in the office.

Carol, would you care to say anything on that?

C. Hoyer: I agree with you completely on that. With the paperwork, we keep that in the office. That doesn’t come outside of the office. There’s still that sort of…. You have to have the hybrid.

M. Starchuk: Victoria, I guess what I’m asking is: with a hybrid model that’s there, does your budget reflect the IT services to be able to do that work from home — the security system and whether or not it’s doubling up on laptops, PCs, printers and those kinds of things?

V. Gray: Yeah, it does. We acquired new computers a year ago, shortly after COVID. That was within our capital budget. And we have had assistance with the technology people.

Carol, do we pay them anything?

C. Hoyer: If we do, it’s a minimal amount. They support us, to some extent. I actually haven’t seen any costs related to that. It’s minimal. The biggest cost would be any of the equipment, which we already have.

J. Routledge (Chair): Any other questions?

Well, not seeing any further questions, I want to thank both of you, Victoria and Carol, for joining us virtually to present your report and answer questions.

Victoria, on behalf of the committee, I want to wish you a speedy recovery and hope you’re back dancing soon. I want to thank your very small but mighty team for the service that you provide to the members of the Legislature and for the role that you play in helping us feel that we are confident and that the public is confident in us with relation to conflict of interest — and to make sure that we avoid those pitfalls that may occur. So thank you again.

V. Gray: Thank you very much.

C. Hoyer: Thank you.

J. Routledge (Chair): I will entertain a motion to move in camera.

Motion approved.

The committee continued in camera from 8:24 a.m. to 9:06 a.m.

[J. Routledge in the chair.]

J. Routledge (Chair): A motion to adjourn?

Motion approved.

The committee adjourned at 9:06 a.m.