The committee met at 9:03 a.m.

[D. Routley in the chair.]

D. Routley (Chair): Good morning, everyone. My name is Doug Routley. I’m the MLA for Nanaimo–North Cowichan and the Chair of the Special Committee on Reforming the Police Act, an all-party committee of the Legislative Assembly.

I would like to acknowledge that I am joining today’s meeting from the traditional territories of the Malahat First Nation.

I would like to welcome all those who are listening and participating in this meeting.

Our committee is undertaking a broad consultation with respect to policing and public safety in B.C. We are taking a phased approach to this work and have had several presentations from subject-matter experts, community advocacy organizations, Indigenous communities and others, scheduled over the past several weeks.

We also invite British Columbians to provide written, audio or video submissions. We will review those submissions with a view to inviting individuals and organizations to present to the committee at a later date. Further details on how to participate are available on our website at www.leg.bc.ca/cmt/rpa. The deadline for submissions in this phase of the consultation is 5 p.m. on April 30.

[9:05 a.m.]

For these meetings, presenters have been organized into small panels. Today we will be meeting with Indigenous communities. We’ll be starting with the Tahltan Band and the Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc. I hope I pronounced that correctly.

Each presenter has 15 minutes for their presentation, followed by time for questions from committee members. We have a timer available on one of the screens to assist.

All audio from our meetings is broadcast live on our website, and a complete transcript will also be posted.

I’ll now ask the members of the committee to introduce themselves. I’ll first call on MLA Kirkpatrick.

K. Kirkpatrick: Good morning, Councillor Jules. My name is Karin Kirkpatrick, and I am the MLA for West Vancouver–Capilano.

My riding is on the traditional territories of the Squamish, Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations.

D. Routley (Chair): Deputy Chair of the committee, MLA Davies.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): Hi. Good morning. Dan Davies, the MLA for Peace River North.

I’m coming to you from the traditional territories of the Dane-zaa.

T. Halford: Hi. Trevor Halford, the MLA for Surrey–​White Rock.

I’m coming to you from the traditional territories of Semiahmoo.

R. Singh: Good morning. Rachna Singh, the MLA for Surrey–Green Timbers.

I am joining you from the traditional territories of the Tsawwassen, Kwikwetlem, Katzie and Semiahmoo First Nations.

G. Begg: Good morning. I’m Garry Begg. I’m the MLA for Surrey-Guildford.

I’m proud today to be joining you from the traditional territories of the Coast Salish people, including the Kwantlen, Semiahmoo and Katzie First Nations.

R. Glumac: Hi. I’m Rick Glumac, the MLA for Port Moody–​Coquitlam.

I am on the traditional territory of the Coast Salish peoples.

H. Sandhu: Good morning, everyone. I’m Harwinder Sandhu, the MLA for Vernon-Monashee.

Today I’m joining you from the unceded territory of the Okanagan Indian Nations.

A. Olsen: Adam Olsen, the MLA for Saanich North and the Islands.

I’m coming to you today from the beautiful W̱JOȽEȽP village in the W̱SÁNEĆ Nation.

Just a note to the Chair. You’re undoubtedly going to get them pronounced incorrectly, but it’s the fact that you try. That’s the most important thing. Let’s keep trying.

D. Routley (Chair): I can do that. Thanks.

Assisting our committee today are Karan Riarh from the Parliamentary Committees Office and Amanda Heffelfinger from Hansard Services. I see Stephanie Raymond on our screen as well.

On that note, I will hand over to our guest councillor.

Go ahead, Jeanette.

Presentations on Police Act

TK’EMLÚPS TE SECWÉPEMC

J. Jules: [Secwepemctsin was spoken.]

Good morning, everyone. I’m Councillor Jeanette Jules for Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc, Kamloops Indian Band, speaking to you from [Secwepemctsin was spoken] and Stk’emlupsemc te Secwépemc'ulucw, part of the Sec­wépemc Nation.

Chief Carmen is here also.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you very much. If you want to go ahead with your presentation, we’ll have some questions for you afterwards, I’m sure.

J. Jules: First off, I just want to say I’m glad the province has been looking at reforming the Police Act. It’s severely out of date. We’ve known that. There haven’t been, really, very many changes to it over all the years since it was last done. It doesn’t reflect the policing needs or the issues of today.

I know we have limited time, so I’m going to focus on the Tk’emlúps-specific issues and really not talk about the endless examples of systematic racism within the justice system. You can’t talk about policing reform without the whole of the justice system, because they’re all interconnected in one way or another.

[9:10 a.m.]

The current review allows for conversations about limitations of the organization of the existing police forces as well as the systematic racism that permeates the entire justice system. Indigenous people need to be involved throughout the entire process of reviewing not just the legislation but the whole justice system to ensure that we are addressing the calls for improvement of policing Indigenous communities head-on. The shared goal is to deliver effective and culturally appropriate policing by the RCMP or other Indigenous policing as we may see within the communities of British Columbia.

The other part that goes along with this is that there has to be appropriate, sustainable, predictable funding for the development of culturally appropriate training and other areas. I got elected in November of 2009 onto council, and the portfolio of justice and policing has been under me since then.

Our community tripartite agreement between our three communities — Whispering Pines, Tk’emlúps and Skeet­chestn…. All of that has been there, and we’ve done the cultural training. We’ve asked the federal, provincial and other people. Nowhere in the tripartite agreement does it state that the funding will be provided. So we’ve had to provide our own funding out of our own source revenue in order to do that. Those things need to be moving on.

Our community is located on the intersections of Highways 1, 5, 5A and the Yellowhead Highway. We know that it is called the golden triangle of transportation economic development. Everything melds here, just like it does in Prince George. There is a hub not only of all of the economic opportunities, but there also is a hub of drug trafficking, sexual exploitation and human trafficking, which, in our community, we’ve had to deal with.

We have had young women and men…. I spent a whole weekend — probably slept four hours — working with all of the surrounding Stswecem’c, Tŝilhqot’in, St’át’imc, Tsa­l’alh, and Nlaka’pamux communities, calling in the middle of the night, working with them to get their young people taken care of and looked after and taken away from the human traffickers. I know it’s something that’s really important. When you’re talking about any of those, we have to be involved.

One of the biggest pieces that we have is that in 2007, between the city of Kamloops and the provincial government, they put the rural detachment underneath the city, with no consultation of our three communities. When that was done, the city had more say of what happens with the rural.

We’ve done a study. We’ve called them Kadowski re­ports. We had a gentleman who specializes in policing re­form, based out of Ottawa, come and do studies for us before we got into the community tripartite agreement and then a couple of years ago. Our rural detachment catchment area is the largest in British Columbia.

We need more provincial police officers, because a lot of times they get pulled off and sent somewhere else. Then our community members say: “Why do we have the policing when you can’t even contact them?”

The impact on our community of the drug use, the in­crease of criminal activity, theft, prostitution, human trafficking and gangs…. That is another huge issue that we face, because it’s not just the First Nations gangs that come here. It is all of the other gangs that are in the Lower Mainland. We see that in the news practically on a daily basis — the gang activity that happens. It comes into the Kamloops region and comes into our communities as well.

[9:15 a.m.]

We have big-city problems within our rural detachment because of the hub that we are in. Our CTA, one of the ones that it does…. We have four full-time RCMP members that devote 100 percent of their working hours to the policing needs of the three communities. They’re not on staff 24 hours a day.

That is something that I did bring up with the AFN: that we need to have more First Nations policing, and they need to be funded adequately. It needs to be an essential service. If it’s an essential service at the federal Crown level, it needs to be an essential service — First Nation policing — on a provincial level as well, because it’s not at either end. It’s not considered an essential service.

Everybody talks about here: “This is what we’re doing for all British Columbians.” First Nations people are a part of the “all British Columbians.” If we’re to be considered that, then we have to be brought in as all British Columbians. It’s not: “Well, you’re a federal responsibility. We’re going to move you over here.” That’s the piece that we’re always told. We’re set aside into a different area. If we’re all to work together and move forward…. That is a part of systematic racism as far as I’m concerned.

If we’re not considered British Columbians…. We’re al­ways told: “Well, you are British Columbians.” But we’re not really considered that when it comes to programming and all of the other impacts that happen to us. We need to have all of that worked in with us.

Our rural detachment is Monday to Friday, eight to four. Our city detachment comes out and moves here, and a lot of our people, after hours, go: “Well, who are these people? They don’t understand us. They don’t know who we are. They don’t know where we are.” When you look at our rural detachment, it takes in Sun Peaks, Tobiano, Savona, Sun Rivers, Monte Creek, Cherry Creek, Heffley Creek, Whitecroft, Black Pines, Deadman Falls, Knutsford and Tranquille area — all of those areas. That’s a huge catchment area, when you go and you take a look at all of the places that need to be….

When you talk about our cultural and ceremonial protocols and our traditional practices, they — the rural de­tachment as well as the city — need to understand.... They need to be fully trained in that. So do all other RCMP and other police forces across the province and the country. The significant population of First Nations people reside within the city boundaries, not just from TteS, but from the surrounding First Nations. I usually get calls from First Nations in the city, asking for assistance on whatever they may be going through.

A comprehensive and collaborative and inclusive re­gional strategy on how to deal with the trends in security and safety in all of our communities needs to happen. The CTA — we have a protocol with the rural access on to the reserve. When you have the city, and it comes to the jurisdictional issues, they need to be asking to come on. We’ve had drug busts within Sun Rivers and other areas, and our rural detachment has not been notified.

In ordered for the RCMP to really come onto the re­serve, the other detachments have to ask our permission. They’re forgetting that process, that protocol.

Yes, I do understand some of these things. You can’t always have that, so there’s really the lack of notification for entering our reserve. They need to have that. It is the jurisdiction that we have to have all of that and also provincial legislation.

[9:20 a.m.]

When you look at the Civil Forfeiture Act, it does not apply on reserve. We need to have some kind of agreement. We did state that when one of the million-dollar homes was used as a grow op in our community. We sent a letter, but we never got a response back from the province on how we are going to work through this and how we are going to make sure that all of that happens.

It goes with traffic fines. All of the other things that happen on reserve. When it’s on reserve, we try to make sure that our laws and our bylaws work with…. But then again, when it comes to the jurisdiction, it goes to the enforcement of our laws and our bylaws on reserve, which I also brought up.

Then it brings into our jurisdiction as First Nations peo­ple, when you look at the cannabis laws and legislation, all of those, and the enforcement of that on our reserve. We have our own law; we have our own bylaws; we have our own policies. Then we have the department that looks after saying: “We’re going to come on the reserve and do all of these other things.” I’ve told them, “No, you can’t, because you need to work with us” — the provincial and the federal governments. So again, it’s a collaboration between both of the levels of the Crown.

There’s lack of communication on critical incidents that occur on our reserve, and our representatives are not invited. I know that, because I would be invited to them. When we did have the one big incident and they had the command posts at our rural detachment, that was the only time we ever had the three-way communication between the city, the ERT, and the band, to go forward. I’ve always said that I don’t need to know the details, I just need to be updated, because in any First Nations community, everybody knows that’s under my portfolio, so I get texts and phone calls that say what’s going on.

It’s not like the city, where everybody is spread out and people don’t know each other. When you’re on a reserve, everybody knows everybody, and we all are concerned about each other and what is happening and sensitive to policing. When we had a young, pregnant woman who was being assaulted — she’s the band member; the young guy was a non–band member — and her leasing agreement for the rental unit is with her, they were trying to make her move until they got everything straightened away with.

I called the Crown and the probation, because he was on probation, and said: “Get him out of there. He’s not a band member. She’s the band member. She doesn’t need to be moved out of her home.” Those kinds of things, the insensitivity of how we are looking at…. He had a bracelet on….

Respecting and understanding our jurisdiction and policing. There are ways to be familiar with respect to TteS jurisdiction on our lands and our bylaws. When the government passed Bill C-45, cannabis, it’s our inherent jurisdiction. When you look at the disregard of First Nations jurisdiction, we need to have all of that. We need to amend the Criminal Code of Canada.

Enforcement of our laws and bylaws. I know that there is none of that. There’s lack of enforcement from the rural detachment, all of these. There’s lack of police officers. We need to all work together so that all of these things move in conjunction, right from if somebody gets arrested, when they go to court, all of those things. There needs to be a total flow-through of that, and I’ve always tried to make sure that I’m a part of that. I assist people whether they’re band members or not.

[Secwepemctsin was spoken.] And I did send the written report in on the issues that we have.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you very much.

Now we’ll call on the next presenter, Chief Carmen McPhee from the Tahltan Band Council.

TAHLTAN BAND COUNCIL

C. McPhee: Good morning. I’m the Chief of the Tahltan Band. I’m from Telegraph Creek. I just was elected at the end of November. We had a late election, due to COVID.

I haven’t had much experience with the RCMP. We had a couple of incidents in the last couple of months, and one was last weekend. We had a person who had a warrant from Smithers, which is about nine hours away, enter the community. He was hiding in somebody’s house.

[9:25 a.m.]

The RCMP went there. They said he wasn’t there. I got three or four calls saying he was there, so I phoned dispatch. I said: “Okay, I just want an update on this person who’s got a warrant.” The dispatch wouldn’t give me an update. The dispatch is out of Prince George. She wouldn’t put me through to the local RCMP. She wouldn’t even ask them for an update to give me. I explained to them that I was the Chief of this community. Didn’t matter.

Finally, I proceeded to go to the RCMP’s house, and I said: “Okay. Well, what’s going on? I can’t get through to you.” He said: “Oh, okay. I went to this house. They would not let me in.” I said: “Well, what do you need? Do you need a warrant?” He’s like: “It’s not so easy to get a warrant.” I said: “Even when somebody has a warrant out for them, or to search the house?” And they said: “No, we can’t do that.” I said: “Can we help with a BCR or something?” They said no.

I see a friend of mine. Driving away from the RCMP, I see one of my friends, and I stop by her. She’s like: “He’s there. I was just there five minutes ago.” So I called the RCMP again. And then they said they went there; he wasn’t there. I said: “Okay, fine. I don’t know what else to do. I’ll just keep in contact with you.” Another girl sends me a video the next day, showing me he’s in the house, sleeping. The cops went there again. They couldn’t get in. They said they were sleeping. No one would answer the door. I was like: “Okay. I don’t know what to do again.”

I contacted Smithers RCMP. They had their phone number posted because of the warrant. I said: “Well, this guy stole a car. He came into our community. The car is parked across the street from where he’s at. The cops still can’t find him, but he’s been at the same house for two days.”

There was a girl with him who is from our community. Her mom was telling me: “He is there.” But they kept saying they couldn’t do anything. They said unless I could see him with my own eyes, they were not going to be able to do anything. They said to stop interfering with what they’re trying to get done here. I said: “Fine.” I just kind of gave up on it.

I think it was Monday. It went on from Friday to Mon­day. On Monday, I see them across the street from my house. But the day before that, I sent out a bunch of emails to their sergeant, to justice council, because it just felt like it was so disrespectful, with absolutely no updates, no communication with leadership. Just saying that we’re interfering. The dispatch is like: “Oh, this is not an emergency, so I can’t put you through to the RCMP.” I said: “Well, we want updates, if he’s just even been arrested. I haven’t even heard if he’s been arrested. There have been rumours in town about this arrest.” She said: “No, I can’t put you through.”

Then when I did call…. I see the RCMP driving around. I know they heard what was going on, because Nathan Cullen even was contacted by our president of our nation because he just couldn’t believe that nothing was happening. We’re a small community of, like, 250 people. It’s 112 kilometres from Dease Lake. It’s off the main highway, very secluded.

The RCMP do very little here. It’s like a vacation for the RCMP. When I was a teen, the RCMP were constantly stopping you for driver’s licence, whatever, alcohol in the vehicle, regular checks. Now there are absolutely no checks. Our community is like: “I don’t even understand why we have RCMP in the community if we’re not even able to contact them and the dispatch won’t put us through.”

Even on this Sunday, when I called just to get an update to see if he was arrested, the dispatch hung up on me. When I asked her, I was like: “Okay. I called yesterday, and I was put through to the RCMP.” She was like: “Oh, you couldn’t have talked to the RCMP. You would have had to call dispatch to talk to them.” I said: “Yes, I did. Can you do that again today, or even call them and let them know, or ask them if there’s any update, if he’s been arrested?” She’s like: “It’s not an emergency.”

[9:30 a.m.]

I kept getting the same answer from a lot of them. Even the next day the RCMP said: “If it’s not an emergency, you are taking away from our regular hours during the week, when we’re looking for this person.” I said: “Well, wouldn’t you think this is an emergency if the person is considered dangerous and has a warrant for assault?”

You are in a small community. We are worried about COVID. He’s coming from a funeral that had COVID. Nobody knows him in this community. Nobody knew him and just didn’t know how unpredictable he could be. Then just leaving it for four days…. Over the weekend, it wasn’t even very active, with cops driving around or anything. We have two RCMP for 250 people. Nobody was driving around. There were no updates. They just told us: “BCRs don’t help. Don’t interfere with what we’re doing, and unless you see them with your own eyes, don’t call in.”

The reason why the person was arrested was because I did see them across the street from my house, and then I did call the RCMP. But by then, I did have a file number and was already in contact with their sergeant in Dease Lake. He said: “Give the file number, and they’ll be there within five minutes.” But I’m like: “If we had that going since Friday, we would have had him arrested.” I even let the RCMP know in the community: “If you want to enter a home, I’ll come with you. It’s fine.” I said: “I know these people. They’ll be less reluctant to let you in their home with me there.”

The RCMP said: “Oh well, we don’t want to put you at risk.” I said: “Well, I wouldn’t put myself at risk if I knew there was a risk, but I’m feeling like some of these people are thinking this person is just visiting from somewhere else and don’t realize who he actually is.” Then, when they came to the door, I think some people just aren’t…. They don’t have a good relation with the RCMP, right? If I was there, or if they involved me in some sort of way, I think they would have had better results.

Again, it’s like cultural training, learning about the community, the people here. They’re here two years at a time, and I feel like for the past ten years, it’s just been fixing skating rinks, helping with little things in the community, doing bike rodeos, but nothing really to do with checking for a driver’s licence or even checking for impaired drivers, just checking people in general.

This guy came into the community with a stolen car. They saw the stolen car. They went to the house and then left, and probably ten minutes later, the car was parked at a different location. I don’t know. If we had more communication and involvement with leadership, I think things could be better. I don’t know how you would fix the part with the dispatch in Prince George and them saying what is an emergency and what isn’t, after hours.

We had an incident the week before of somebody drinking and driving. It’s an area where there are a lot of kids who play. The cops said they couldn’t find him when we did call in. Then maybe 45 minutes later, he crashed his vehicle. Things like that — just finding better ways of working together.

That’s about all for us right now.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you very much for your presentation.

I’m wondering if we have our third presenter, Karan.

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): They’re scheduled for later.

D. Routley (Chair): Okay. Sorry. I mixed that up.

Then at this point, we’ll open the floor to questions from members.

A. Olsen: Thank you, Chief McPhee, for sharing that story with us. It’s such a recent incident and serves to highlight a lot of the challenges and issues that we’ve heard from other communities as well.

[9:35 a.m.]

I should say congratulations on your recent election.

I have the same question, I think, for both yourself and for Councillor Jules just in and around the tripartite agreement. I think a couple of the comments that Councillor Jules made were kind of solidified in the story from Chief McPhee just around the tripartite agreement and your community’s ability to negotiate in those agreements what you as the elected leaders of your communities would like to see in those agreements.

Can you maybe talk and just provide some insight as to what that process is and whether or not there is an openness to being able to reflect your priorities within that tripartite agreement?

C. McPhee: Our tripartite agreement is actually up for renewal. I did talk to the RCMP about that, and I said there has got to be changes in this tripartite agreement. It seems like it’s just been signed every year and not really negotiated or really looked at.

We had a Chief outside the community for probably the past ten years. So it’s just time to make changes for the betterment of our people and for the RCMP as well — right? — to know that they have the support here, that we’re willing to work together. Those things will be looked at.

Again, it’s hard to call a dispatch that’s in Prince George and doe not understand our area, does not understand where we’re at, asking you where exactly this house is and what this exact address is and taking precious time away from things and you knowing the RCMP already knows where this person lives. They live five houses away from the cop or something like that. It’s small here. Everybody knows everybody by name.

That’s a big thing I found, calling the dispatch and them always saying it’s not an emergency. Well then, what is an emergency? Is it when somebody actually gets stabbed or shot? When is it considered an emergency? I think an emergency is when somebody with a warrant is in your community and they’re not found. It’s a little bit crazy, things like that. Just to be taken into…. What is an emergency to the RCMP?

A. Olsen: Councillor Jules, do you have an experience with the negotiation of the tripartite agreement?

J. Jules: What they’ve been doing for the last three years is just sending us a letter. I expect to get a letter again from Public Safety Canada and Public Safety B.C. stating that they are just turning over the community tripartite agreements, First Nations policing agreements, for one year, giving an extension.

We have not had a meeting. Usually we have a meeting with the federal and the provincial representatives, and we go through what is needed within the CTAs or other First Nations policing, because some, like the Lillooet Tribal Council, have their policing.

We have not had a meeting in four years. The last one was in Kelowna four years ago. Since then, there have been no meetings. We’re just rolling over and we’re doing an extension. In order for all of these to happen, we need to have those meetings. We also need to ensure that our input, instead of….

I fill out the program, you may as well call it a survey, from Public Safety Canada and Public Safety British Columbia. “How are you satisfied with the RCMP?” They have the list of about 20 questions. When you don’t answer the questions the way they want you to answer, they’ll send somebody up.

[9:40 a.m.]

Just about every time I filled one out, over the last 11 years — we haven’t had to do it in the last two — usually come up, and they want me to change what I’ve stated on: “Here’s an issue.” You put the pros and cons. You put what’s good and what’s working, and you put in the issues that aren’t working. They usually don’t like you to put in the issues that aren’t working.

I said: “Then this isn’t a fair and open and democratic process if you’re trying to make me change my mind on what I said is an issue that needs to be addressed.” It needs to be addressed. Otherwise, we’re not going to go forward. We’re going to just have the same old, same old. That’s been my experience. But we have not had an invitation to go and sit and go over the CTAs and the access to the people.

Olivier Cullen was the Aboriginal lead for Minister Go­odale. He’s moved, and there’s a new Aboriginal lead for Minister Blair. Olivier was really open to anyone across the country to be able to deal with. This new person? I’ve emailed him and phoned him probably five times just saying that we need to have a meeting, that we need to do some things. Not once has he ever returned an email. Nor has he returned a phone call. I get more information out of Minister Lametti’s office than I do from theirs. Usually, when I call Minister Farnworth’s office, his executive assistant or the deputy minister, then I’ll get a response.

We need to have a better working relationship on openness and transparency. That’s what we need to have, be­cause so many people in our community just go: “Why do we have the RCMP? You can’t catch a-hold of them. You can’t do anything.” I didn’t realize till just this last week that our dispatch, which was in Kelowna last year, got moved to Vancouver. So now Prince George and Vancouver are where dispatch is.

Three-quarters of the time, 75 to 80 percent of the time, the dispatch does not know where anybody is. You will have a major emergency, and they’ll send somebody down into Oliver, B.C., or up to Clearwater or out somewhere else, instead of coming to our communities, because they don’t know where we’re at.

I don’t know what kind of training. That’s another…. Dispatch needs to have training on the geography of the province to know where all the First Nations communities are, because I know it’s not just ours. It’s been brought up at those meetings that a lot of them don’t know where our communities are. Time, especially when it’s an emergency, is of the essence.

We can’t be having those kinds of issues in our com­munities. Then we, as the elected leaders, get the questions from our members: “What do we have the RCMP for, when they don’t do anything for us?” Those are the kinds of pieces that we have.

K. Kirkpatrick: Thank you very much, Councillor Jules and Chief McPhee.

The theme I’m hearing, as we’re going through many of these meetings, is that in your community, there’s a lack of policing and a lack of support, and then outside of community, Indigenous peoples are overpoliced. There’s a bit of an irony there. I can hear the frustration in your voices, which I think is completely warranted.

A lack of sharing of information. That is very surprising to me as well — that you’re not kept informed. Chief McPhee’s example of not being able to find any contact or information while something was actually in process — I don’t understand that.

A question to Councillor Jules, just so I understand. In the tripartite agreement, you made reference to there not being designated funding for something. I think you were talking about training, and I may have misunderstood.

J. Jules: Development of cultural training. We have to take it out of our own source revenue. We get nothing for it.

K. Kirkpatrick: Interesting. Okay. How many members are there, Councillor Jules, in your community?

[9:45 a.m.]

J. Jules: We have five. They usually get dispatched other places. They have that one. I can never remember what it’s called. With Trans Mountain, if there’s an issue up at Blue River, down in Burnaby or with the LNG up north, our officers get taken from here and dispatched to other areas. Then we’re short. For a month period, we had one First Nations police officer here.

K. Kirkpatrick: And that’s for how many residents of your community?

J. Jules: When you look at all three of our communities, there are about 1,500. But then when you look at ours, it’s a unique situation. We have our lessees, and we have Sun Rivers. There are probably 8,000 people in the Sun Rivers community. There are probably another 5,000 in the trailer parks and other housing subdivisions. Then when you look at everybody that comes across the river to go to work in our industrial subdivision, there’s probably about 15,000.

On a daily basis, there are probably, I would say, at least 30,000 a day.

K. Kirkpatrick: Okay. Interesting. When you made reference to the drug bust or something at the $1 million pro­perty, what you were referring to was that that home was forfeited. There was a forfeiture there, but that went to civil forfeitures. Then, as your community, you have no access to that.

J. Jules: No. They couldn’t because we got our lawyer on it right away. Then the province, the RCMP and somebody in the justice department were going: “Well, no, we can.” And I go: “No, you don’t have jurisdiction on the reserve. You can’t come in here. You can’t enforce the Civil Forfeiture Act. You can’t go and take the house. You can’t put it up for auction.”

In our lease, it says something totally different. We had to get our legal, because they wouldn’t listen to us. We did have people jump right in and go. It goes to when people are speeding, when they’re caught speeding and they are going way over the speed limit. We had one guy going 145 on one of the reserve roads in a Jaguar.

K. Kirkpatrick: Gosh. Thank you both very much. I appreciate your time.

D. Routley (Chair): That wasn’t me in the Jaguar, by the way.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): Thank you, both, for your presentation.

Congratulations, Chief McPhee, on your election.

I’ve got a few little questions and such here. I just want to talk briefly on Councillor Jules’s comment around centralized dispatch, which has always been a concern for me, whether it’s police, fire or ambulance.

British Columbia is such a diverse province, a lot of rural areas. A lot of local knowledge becomes important when we’re dispatching for emergencies. I certainly hear your concerns there.

Just a quick question, Councillor Jules, to you first. I just wanted to clarify this. I wasn’t sure. I might have missed it. Your members, your RCMP members that are in your community, are they Indigenous members?

J. Jules: Yes. We have five First Nations and then our ru­ral detachment. There are six rural detachment members.

When we did our report…. We need at least seven more rural detachment members, just because of the size of our catchment area. They usually get pushed. When we were pushing for that, because we’re under the city, the city went and talked to Minister Farnworth, and they got four more policing officers in the city, which they don’t need, that we should have had in our rural detachment.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): A follow-up question. I am going to also ask this to Chief McPhee as well. The RCMP members that are in your community, do they rotate through regularly? Or are they pretty much attached to the community for an indefinite long-term period?

C. McPhee: The RCMP here rotate through every two years in June.

[9:50 a.m.]

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): How about, Councillor Jules, in your community?

J. Jules: Unless they go for an advancement, we usually have our officers here for about, on average, five years.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): Five years.

J. Jules: Yeah.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): All right. Chief McPhee, I know you said about every two years. Your RCMP are dispatched out of Dease Lake. Is that correct?

C. McPhee: The sergeant is out in Dease Lake. The two RCMP who are here are local. They have two RCMP houses that are just right off the reserve boundary. They live here, locally.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): Okay. I am just trying to paint a picture in my mind. The members that are in your community…. Again, we’ve had a number of folks talking over the past few weeks about integration in the community. I’m just wondering how that relationship works with your RCMP members. Are they well integrated in the community, attending other community events? I’m just wondering what that relationship looks like.

C. McPhee: They’re at community events, for sure. We usually have a meeting with the RCMP if there’s something large happening. We will contact the Dease Lake RCMP as well as the Telegraph Creek RCMP, just to make sure that we have enough RCMP involved for larger events.

For small events, the RCMP usually come and attend the events in the community, when we can have events. Because of COVID, we haven’t had too many things happening.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): For sure.

That’s good. Like I say, I’m just trying to get a picture in my mind, especially being a very rural and remote area up in the northwest there.

Thank you, both, again. I appreciate it.

C. McPhee: I do not want to paint a picture like the RCMP don’t do nothing here, right? They do get involved with the kids. They get involved with community events. They come to family events when they have events like that. They are involved in that sort of way.

It’s hard to contact them when there is something actually happening in the community. Like Councillor Jules said, it’s really hard to deal with dispatch not knowing our community and them saying that it needs to be an emergency. Even to get an update, just even that…. For them to even connect us to the RCMP and say: “Okay, this person hasn’t been arrested….”

When I get calls from my community, because I call the cops…. I get like 20 calls from the community or more, as I’ve said, when something’s happening in the community. They’re saying: “Tell them to call us.” I said: “They would, but they can’t get through, so they don’t.” They get me to call.

To be able to update and say yes or no, this person has been arrested, or yes or no, they have gone out to find this person or whatever. Just updates, simple updates, even if they did it on their own time, to call in or something. I don’t know.

R. Singh: Thank you, both, Chief and councillor, for your presentation. My questions are mostly answered. I just want to thank you for coming in here today. Especially the last few weeks, we are hearing a lot of stories about the gaps and the barriers. I really appreciate you coming in today and talking about that as well — deeply appreciate that. Thank you.

D. Routley (Chair): I don’t see any more questions. Are there any members who would like to chime in?

R. Glumac: Just one final question, just following up a little bit on Dan’s questions.

With the amount of time that an RCMP officer is asso­ciated with your community, whether two years or five years, do you feel, when that term ends and an officer leaves, that it’s kind of like starting from scratch? Do you feel like it would be beneficial if those terms were longer? I’d just like to hear your feedback on that.

[9:55 a.m.]

C. McPhee: I think so. You know, some of the RCMP…. We’ve had RCMP who were way more involved as well. I think it would be beneficial, just so they are able to get to know the community better. I think even on our part, to give an orientation of the community would be a big thing. That’s one thing I want to talk about with the tripartite agreement: just orientation of our community, our band, our people.

Our community’s a pretty quiet community, so when work needs to be done, I would rather it be done than hav­ing to worry about what’s going to happen during the week, because pretty much nothing happens during the week here. Thank you. We have a high population of elders as well. That’s why I say we don’t have much activity in the community.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you.

J. Jules: Having an officer for a longer period of time so they get to know everyone, including a lot of the younger people in our community and our youth, they get to build a relationship. If they’re only here for a short time, they don’t get to build that relationship. The trust isn’t there.

With one of the officers we’ve had here for five years, he has built a really good relationship with a lot of the younger people. Other officers have not and cannot build a relationship with them. They’re just cops. That’s what they tell me: “They’re cops.”

He’ll stop, he’ll visit, and he’ll talk to them. He does a lot of things. He acts like he’s a real human being. That’s what one of the young guys told me. He acts like he’s a real human being, not somebody who’s up here and: “I’ve got control of your life. I can take your freedom away from you at any moment.” That’s how they explained it to me. Having that, building that relationship, is really important.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you. Thank you, everyone, and thank you to our guests for their presentations. Our committee is looking far and wide for input, and we’re receiving a lot. We’d also like to ask you, if we have more questions related to your presentation, if we can contact you. And likewise, if you have other information you’d like to add, we are always open to receiving more input.

We thank you very much for your contribution to our big task in front of us with this review, of reforming the Police Act, which is so important to so many people. Thank you very much.

J. Jules: Kukwstsétsemc for allowing us to do a presentation.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you.

Members, we’ll take a five-minute recess before our next presentation. See you in five.

The committee recessed from 9:58 a.m. to 10:06 a.m.

[D. Routley in the chair.]

D. Routley (Chair): We’re continuing our meeting with Indigenous communities, and we’ll now be hearing from the Xaxli’p First Nation.

I’ll also remind everyone that all our audio from the meetings is broadcast live on our website, and a complete transcript will also be posted.

I’ll ask members now to introduce themselves, starting with MLA Olsen.

A. Olsen: Adam Olsen, MLA for Saanich North and the Islands.

I’m proud to be working today from the beautiful W̱JOȽEȽP territory in W̱SÁNEĆ.

C. Jacob: Can everyone hear me? I can’t hear anybody. I wonder if it’s my audio.

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Doug, do you want to take a short recess?

D. Routley (Chair): Yeah, I think we’d better. We’ll take five minutes to figure this out, and we’ll be back.

The committee recessed from 10:07 a.m. to 10:08 a.m.

[D. Routley in the chair.]

D. Routley (Chair): I will introduce MLA Halford and move on to Deputy Chair and MLA Davies.

R. Glumac: Hi, I’m MLA Rick Glumac, representing Port Moody–Coquitlam.

I am on the traditional territory of the Coast Salish peoples.

T. Halford: Trevor Halford, MLA for Surrey–White Rock.

I’m coming to you from the traditional territories of Semiahmoo.

R. Singh: Hi. Rachna Singh, MLA for Surrey–Green Timbers.

I’m joining you from the shared territories of the Katzie, Kwikwetlem, Kwantlen, Semiahmoo and Tsaw­wassen First Nations.

K. Kirkpatrick: Hi there. Thank you for being here with us today. I’m Karin Kirkpatrick. I’m the MLA for West Vancouver–Capilano.

We are located on the traditional territories of the Squa­mish, Musqueam and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations.

H. Sandhu: Hello, everyone. I’m Harwinder Sandhu, the MLA for Vernon-Monashee.

Today I’m joining you from the unceded territory of the Okanagan Indian nations.

[10:10 a.m.]

D. Routley (Chair): We’ve got MLA Garry Begg joining us as well.

Now I would like to call on our presenters, Chief Col­leen Jacob and Councillor Pauline Michell, for their presentation.

We have 15 minutes set aside for the presentation, and committee members will have questions.

XAXLI’P FIRST NATION

C. Jacob: Good morning. My name is Chief Colleen Jacob, and this is Councillor Pauline Michell. Thank you for this opportunity.

We just wanted to talk a little bit about the Stl’atl’imx tribal police. There are 11 communities in our nation. There are ten that work with the Stl’atl’imx tribal police. Just to give a bit of understanding of why we’re here, we wanted to talk about the tribal police, but also the systemic racism in relation to that.

We’ll be focusing on the tripartite agreement. There is an agreement set in place with the federal government and the B.C. government. There’s a portion that is 52 percent funded by the federal government and 48 percent from B.C. The nation, ourselves, have an in-kind contribution, meaning that we offer some of the land and various other things that we put in. We just signed a ten-year tripartite agreement, and we have nine years left to go. There have been a few changes, and we acknowledge that there has been some change in the agreement. It makes it a bit easier for our STP to operate.

When we first started…. I think it goes back to the ’80s and ’90s when the STP was first initiated. One of the biggest things that we realized was that, in our view, we were underserved and racism was quite evident in the policing in the area. There was a real gap between policing in our communities and the RCMP, because prior to this, it was really just the RCMP that visited our communities and carried out their duties. There was a real mistrust, and that was one of the reasons why this actually got started, the STP. It was the catalyst to its creation.

Basically, how it operates is that they have a board, and each of the communities has one person from each community that sits on the board. What this has done is actually allow for more control in terms of the policing services and the governance structure. That has helped. Also, it’s the board that designates who the chief officer is. I think those are some of the things that really have helped in giving the local community a bit more control over the policing.

That’s one of our first recommendations: that whether the Indigenous communities set up their own tribal police system or, if not, then…. At least give each of the communities some more say. Having a direct and binding input in the policing services and the governing structure — that’s one of the recommendations that we have.

Currently the relationship with the STP is that many of the officers call this their home. A lot of the officers that work around here become a part of the STP, so they become integrated into the community. Much of them are actually from the local nation, so they are tribal police that have been trained. They come back to the communities, and they are living in our nation.

[10:15 a.m.]

The STP is not really known to be very oppressive. They’re more geared towards working with the communities, so that’s probably another difference. Also, although the STP is accountable, still, to the province of B.C., and they comply with the policing act and the standards, I think, for the most part, much of our community members see them not so much as oppressive but working with us, so that’s a good thing.

In the future, we are still looking to foster the relationship so that it is still collaborative and inclusive. The community still will always have input on who sits on the board, who will be the chief officer.

Actually, a couple of years ago…. We have an annual gathering. It’s called — our celebration — St’át’imc Days. The tribal police were actually acknowledged at that gathering, and they were honoured. As part of the mission when it comes to the STP, part of that… They refer to it as uniquely St’át’imc, meaning that this is where it developed and where that had grown. Now you have this. The STP have their own way of working with the communities.

Also, one thing we notice is the officers are…. Usually, they have a lot of respect for our way of life. So when it comes to anything, like if there’s a member that passes away, they usually participate and support us when we have our processions. That’s another very respectful, honourable thing to do. When they do take their oath of office, it’s usually within the presence of the communities. In that respect, they are fully integrated into the community.

I think that’s a little bit of the background on how the STP came about and the relationship that we have de­veloped. But turning towards the recommendations, I think there are some recommendations that we do have as a nation. One of the things that came up — this is the first one — is that STP is actually regarded as a program, so it’s regarded as program funding.

That’s one of the concerns that we have. When you talk about program funding, sometimes those program fundings are some of the first things that get cut. I think that’s a pretty big concern for our communities. One of the things that we would like to…. When it comes to policing service, they are usually considered essential service. That’s one of the things that we would like to change. This is one of the items that we feel is a bit on the side of systemic racism. If you are an essential service, then you’re not likely to get cut. Your funding’s not going to get cut.

It is our recommendation that the province, that Can­ada, changes our policing funding model from one that is considered to be another government-funded program to one that is an essential service. It is our recommendation that the province of B.C. amend the Police Act to include a statement from the government to consider all First Nations policing, whether it is supplementary service through the RCMP or a primary service delivered by the STP, as an essential service.

[10:20 a.m.]

Another challenge that we’ve indicated or realized is…. We do have a ten-year funding agreement. Although it will provide some stability, one of the concerns is: even though you have an agreement, does it mean that the funding will stay the same? This is something, because when you do have a policing…. When there are changes, say, to the policing, RCMP…. If there were changes, then their funding actually can be increased, or they can accommodate for those changes, whereas the STP may not have that luxury. Right? So I think that’s one thing we would like to recommend — that there is that change.

It is our recommendation that the government of B.C. consider an amendment to the Police Act to allow for pol­ice agencies covered by a tripartite agreement to regularly revisit the funding arrangement to account for substantial changes or additions to the police service delivery that place unexpected or new pressures that negatively impact the policing budget — say, if there are changes, then at least the funding will accommodate for the changes through the STP.

The other thing that we would like to say: improvements to the new models of policing. I’ll just read these out. There are a few recommendations that we have. I think there are about four or five of them here.

Recommendations. We recommend that a formal re­view should be conducted of all training programs pro­vided to recruit class police officers at the Justice Institute of B.C. This review’s focus should be to identify and to remove examples of training lessons or hands-on exercises that lend themselves to systemic, discriminatory police practices that should be replaced with training that is more appropriate. It’s just really taking a review of the training practices to see where changes could be made there.

Another recommendation is that we recommend the police training standards be adjusted to include a minimum of 40 hours of formal training to the Justice Institute of B.C. Police Academy recruit classes to include instruction provided by qualified Indigenous police officers or subject-matter experts. This training should focus on systemic racism, cultural values and crisis communication with Indigenous peoples.

Another recommendation. We also recommend municipal police services be required to undergo in-service training focused on cultural sensitivity and bias-free police training. This training should be required throughout every officer’s career, just as one would expect that they’re requalified to use their firearm or other tools that they carry and use on the people of our community.

Again, we recommend that any police officer espousing to promote to an executive leadership position within their police service should be required to undergo a formal training program in Indigenous studies similar to the Indigenous Canada course provided by the University of Alberta.

Lastly, when I was looking at the Police Act, I noticed there wasn’t anything in the Police Act that referred specifically to Indigenous policing as well as to UNDRIP. I think that would be another recommendation — to incorporate those into the Police Act.

Wrapping up here, I believe the STP model for policing Indigenous communities can serve as a best practice when assessing how the police can best interact with communities when dealing with police matters. It would be our honour to encourage the STP board to create an opportunity for other police board members and their police officers to engage with the STP in any opportunity to learn about our policing model.

With that…. I don’t know if Colleen has anything that she wants to add, but that’s really our presentation. We thank you for this opportunity. I don’t know if you have anything that you want clarified or anything like that.

[10:25 a.m.]

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you, Chief. Thank you, Coun­cillor.

I would ask for questions from members at this point.

I see MLA Singh.

R. Singh: Thank you to both of you for the presentation.

In your presentation, Chief, you have mentioned about the training a number of times and the recommendations about the training, especially the culturally sensitive training. You also talked about a training course in Alberta. Why Alberta? Why not…? Do you think that they are setting an example there that we don’t have here in B.C.?

P. Michell: I think the training that was mentioned in Alberta…. I think we’ve taken a look at what’s being offered in B.C., and the one that was in Alberta seems like the most adequate one that we were thinking of.

R. Singh: You talk about the training because you are feeling that the officers who are coming don’t have much information or don’t have the knowledge about Indigenous policies, Indigenous culture. That’s what your experience has been?

P. Michell: No. I think when an officer joins the Stl’a­tl’imx Tribal Police, as Chief Colleen had mentioned in the presentation, they become familiar with each community. Each community does have its own culture and traditions, but they pretty well integrate into STP, and they’re required to keep up their training.

C. Jacob: I think one of the biggest messages here is that, whether you are STP or RCMP, you’re going into a community and that you are familiar with the community and with the people. That’s one part of getting your cultural training and education, but there are probably some courses that we could actually design. I guess it would be a promotion of respecting each other’s communities and our values and our way of life. That way, it builds upon the relationship that we have with each other.

A. Olsen: I’d just like to thank you for your presentation, Chief and Councillor. I appreciate you sharing your experiences in the unique policing model that you have there. I think there’s a lot to be learned.

I’m in the W̱SÁNEĆ Nation here, down on the south coast. In fact, I’ve got family that lives up in your area — the Adolf family up there. A couple of ways, actually.

Anyway, I think it’s important that other First Nations in the province have the opportunity to learn from the experience that you have with the Stl’atl’imx Tribal Police. I think that, as we go forward, your recommendations will help inform taking what we have heard from many communities and trying to find a model that works for Indigenous peoples across the province.

C. Jacob: Thank you. Yes. I recognized your last name right away.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you very much.

I don’t see any more questions, Members. Last chance.

Okay. At this time, I’d like to thank the Chief and councillor for your presentation to the committee and your helping us process this huge task of reforming the Police Act or making recommendations to reform the Police Act. We appreciate your input and your recommendations.

We would also ask, if we have further questions, if we could contact you, and also offer that, of course, if you have input that you’d like to make, further to this…. We always invite that. With that, I’ll thank our presenters.

I think the meeting will move to its next phase. I think we’ll take a five-minute recess, if that’s all right, everybody.

The committee recessed from 10:29 a.m. to 10:39 a.m.

[D. Routley in the chair.]

Deliberations

D. Routley (Chair): I’ll call the meeting back to order. At this point, the committee will move to deliberations. To do that, we will move in camera. I’m looking for a motion.

I have one from MLA Halford, seconded by MLA Kirkpatrick, to move this meeting in camera.

Motion approved.

The committee continued in camera from 10:39 a.m. to 11:42 a.m.

[D. Routley in the chair.]

D. Routley (Chair): Okay. We’ve come out of camera. Thank you, Members, for that meeting and all the opportunity to discuss.

Having concluded our business, I’d ask for a motion to adjourn the meeting. MLA Kirkpatrick, seconded by MLA Singh.

Motion approved.

The committee adjourned at 11:43 a.m.