The committee met at 10:02 a.m.

Election of Chair and Deputy Chair

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Good morning, Members. Congratulations on your appointment to the Special Committee on Reforming the Police Act.

For those of you who I have not yet met in person, my name is Karan Riarh. I’m a senior research analyst in the Parliamentary Committees Office, and I will be the Clerk to your committee.

As this is the committee’s first meeting, the first order of business is the election of a Chair. Are there any nominations?

R. Singh: Yes, thank you. I would like to nominate Doug Routley.

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Doug, do you accept the nomination?

D. Routley: I do. Thank you.

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Excellent. Any further nominations? Any further nominations? A third and final time, any further nominations?

All right. Seeing none, all those in favour, please raise your hands.

Motion approved.

[D. Routley in the chair.]

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Congratulations, Chair.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you very much to the members.

I suppose our next order of business is the election of the Deputy Chair.

Shall I call for nominations, Karan?

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Yes, please.

D. Routley (Chair): Okay. Is there a nomination for Deputy Chair?

I. Paton: I’d like to nominate Dan Davies.

D. Routley (Chair): Dan, do you accept the nomination?

D. Davies: Well, I suppose so.

D. Routley (Chair): That’s great. You’re a great Deputy Chair.

Any other nominations? Are there any other nominations for Deputy Chair? Once more, any more nominations for Deputy Chair?

Okay, Members. The question is that Dan Davies take the role of Deputy Chair.

Motion approved.

D. Routley (Chair): Congratulations, Mr. Deputy Chair.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, everyone.

D. Routley (Chair): Now I guess we’ll move on to our next item on our agenda.

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): I guess I’ll take it from here, Doug, if you’d like.

D. Routley (Chair): Yes. Thanks.

Committee Overview

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Great. Congratulations, again, Doug.

Congratulations, Dan, on your appointment as Deputy Chair.

This is just a very brief meeting. I thought I would take this opportunity to, first, introduce one of our committees staff who is here with us today as well as provide a very brief introduction to the work of your committee.

[10:05 a.m.]

As Clerk, I do serve as your key point of contact and as a procedural and administrative adviser to the Chair, Deputy Chair and all members of the committee. I’m joined today by Katey Stickle, who I think will look familiar to some of you, the research lead for this committee. Our research services team provides research support to parliamentary committees, including preparing briefing and background materials, communication materials, drafting your reports and any other documents, as re­quired.

We also have a team of administrative staff — Mary Newell, Stephanie Raymond and Mariana Novis — who provide logistical and administrative support to parliamentary committees, including scheduling our meetings and distributing information such as meeting agendas and other materials.

As with all parliamentary committees, your committee, of course, receives its terms of reference from the Legislative Assembly. It was circulated to you by Jennifer earlier and again by me yesterday. Your committee has been appointed to inquire into a number of areas and issues re­lated to policing, with a report due to the House by October 8.

As I’m sure you’re all aware, there was a special committee that had been appointed by the Legislative Assembly in the previous parliament to undertake this work, and we do have a few committee members who served on that committee.

At the time of dissolution, the previous committee had just begun their inquiry and had received briefings from the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General, which are available on our website. There had been additional meetings and plans in place to receive additional input from more stakeholders.

This committee, of course, will have an opportunity to determine its own approaches and scheduling for gathering input and conducting any public consultations. This can involve a number of different options, including briefings; presentations; and submissions from ministries, statutory officers, key stakeholders and the broader public.

In terms of next steps, I do believe you’ve all been invited to a couple of orientation sessions — one on parliamentary committees on January 14 and one on statutory offices on January 18. I would highly encourage everyone to attend.

If members agree, we can schedule a more fulsome planning session for this committee shortly after those orientation sessions. In the meantime, as is the usual practice, our office can work with the Chair and Deputy Chair on starting to pull together a draft workplan and timelines, which can be presented to all committee members for review and consideration at that planning meeting.

I will also note that committee staff have prepared a number of background and other research materials that will be shared with you in the coming days and weeks to assist with your work.

That’s it for my very brief introduction today. I would welcome any questions that you might have.

D. Routley (Chair): Any questions, Members?

A. Olsen: Mr. Chair, congratulations on this role. I look forward to working with you and working with all our colleagues here. I was very much interested in this the first time that this committee was struck and look forward to continuing this work.

I’m wondering if there was any appetite, on behalf of the new committee members, to receive another briefing from the ministry. I know that there’s information that can be read. However, there was a handful, at least a number, of questions. I think to have the opportunity…. As well, I understand that there’s been some change within this particular office, within Public Safety and Solicitor General.

It might be worthwhile for us to start this process, really, at the beginning, because we weren’t that far down the road. I just wanted to get the appetite of our committee here on that.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you, Adam. Good to see you again.

R. Singh: I completely agree with Adam, Chair. Yes, we started the work. Some of us were part of that committee before, but we have quite a few new members. Because the work had not been…. We were just in the beginning stages of that committee, and I would really recommend starting the work from scratch, especially with the briefing that the ministry gave.

The day we adjourned this committee, we were still in a briefing. I would really recommend to start from scratch.

D. Routley (Chair): Okay.

I’ll quickly go to Garry. I should have gone to him right away because he’s the Whip.

G. Begg: Thanks, Doug and Rachna.

I just want to reinforce what Rachna has said. I think the fact that there was a prior committee is almost totally irrelevant at this stage. Nothing was done, and no real direction was set.

[10:10 a.m.]

I agree wholeheartedly that we need a fulsome briefing on the state of play in the ministry now. We can’t do that if we assume that everyone knows what everyone else is doing or what their knowledge level is. So exactly what Rachna said. We have to start at the beginning.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): Obviously, not to beat a dead horse, and coming from one of the new guys on the committee, I certainly 100 percent agree…. Even when I was reading through the Hansard transcripts…. You kind of miss, I think, a lot of the flavour of exactly what’s happening.

I’m sure I speak pretty much on behalf of all of us new folks that are on this committee. Let’s just restart the work of this committee. We’ve got a lot of new faces on the committee. I think that would be prudent for all concerned moving forward. Yeah, I certainly support the recommendation.

D. Routley (Chair): Okay. It seems we have consensus. I, of course, agree with the committee’s direction.

Shall we, then, Karan, schedule a briefing, if possible?

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Yes. I think, as I suggested, perhaps you, Dan and I could meet first to maybe sketch out what that could look like, in terms of maybe a fulsome schedule of potential briefings. I think there were quite a few that members had previously been interested in and, I would imagine, even the newer members would still be interested in.

We can map out that schedule and have all committee members review what that would look like and what other additional stakeholders you might want to hear from. Just so we have a more fulsome plan moving forward, particularly keeping in mind that, of course, there’s also a full spring sitting that we will need to accommodate our work around as well.

A. Olsen: I’d like to shift gears just a little bit here with respect to that spring session. It appears that there’s going to be a proroguing partway through. I don’t know if that’s confirmed or if it can be confirmed. I’m just wondering, from the government members or perhaps the Clerk, how we might address that so that we don’t lose the continuity.

I don’t suspect that the member from the Green Party is going to change, if that proroguing happens. I just want to make sure that we, up front here, know what we’re facing and that we have a contingency plan to work through it, noting that the work gets wiped clean and we start over again, essentially, although we might not fully start over again.

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Doug, would you like me to maybe speak to that just a little bit?

D. Routley (Chair): Yes, please, Karan.

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): I can’t speak for any hypothetical membership changes, but of course, it is quite common for parliamentary committees to experience a bit of a break from session to session.

The committee is, of course, free to work up until that moment of prorogation, should there be a prorogation. Usually, the assembly and the House are quite accommodating in terms of ensuring committees are struck quite quickly and soon after prorogation, so we would likely not lose very much time at all. It’s something that we can work with the Government House Leader’s office on to ensure that those committees get up and running as soon as possible.

D. Routley (Chair): Good. Thank you.

Any other business in front of us? Questions?

Okay. We’ve got a policeman on our committee — Garry, we’ll be looking to you for your insight — and peo­ple from all over the province.

Dan, we’ve got the northern RCMP in your neighbourhood.

All you Lower Mainland people have a variety of flavours. It may be more directly impacted in the Lower Mainland than some of the other regions, but it certainly is going to affect all of B.C.

I really look forward to this. I think we can have a lasting effect and a positive impact on the lives of the people we represent but also the police and maybe be a good vehicle for building a bridge to a better relationship and perception.

[10:15 a.m.]

I look at the forest industry. I came from the forest in­dustry. It gets a bad rap often. I’m frustrated, often, that people aren’t more proud of that industry. Adam and I will have agreement on a lot of the most contentious things.

It frustrates me, and I’m sure it must frustrate police officers like you, Garry, when the perception is not good. Like any of us, as politicians, when things look badly for someone, it reflects on all of us.

It will be really exciting to consider all of this. I look forward to working with all of you.

R. Glumac: Just a quick question. In my riding, Port Moody has its own police force. I’m just curious. Are there other people on the committee that represent areas that have their own police force?

I. Paton: Delta does. Delta has had its own police force since I was a kid here. It has evolved over the years to a pretty well respected police force. I’m sure just like Port Moody, New Westminster and Abbotsford, etc.

G. Lore: Victoria does as well.

A. Olsen: I have an interesting riding in which I’ve got very rural RCMP detachments on the southern Gulf Islands; I have more of an urban, although not like Surrey, RCMP detachment in North Saanich and Sidney; and I have a municipal detachment within my riding, with four First Nations.

There is the full, I think, scale of policing matters in Saanich North and the Islands, which I’ve been addressing over the last 3½ years. I hope to be able to bring those experiences forward.

D. Davies (Deputy Chair): I’m not too sure…. Actually, I think it was on CKNW a few times yesterday. It seems to be being talked about quite a bit lately.

Maybe this is a little bit of homework for folks. If you have an opportunity, there are two documentaries, which are on YouTube, that KOMO TV out of Seattle did. One is called Seattle Is Dying, and the other is called Fight for the Soul of Seattle. I think both of these documentaries…. One is an hour. The other is 90 minutes.

We can’t, I don’t think, lay over directly in a British Columbia situation, but I think there’s a lot of good stuff in these two documentaries just to have, I think, as background. Some of the issues that policing across North America is facing right now. I think they’re two really good things to maybe have as some background information, if folks have some time.

G. Begg: Just to keep in mind, please, that we’re talking about the B.C. Police Act, the province of British Columbia’s Police Act. It has municipal police departments. Private police departments are bound by the B.C. Police Act as is the RCMP, who act as a contractor of police services for all of British Columbia.

I suspect that one of the challenges that we will face as we help the ministry rewrite the Police Act is to address some of those issues that arise as a result of the balkanization of police across the province. It’s a very real issue. I say, with great respect, that many of you may not be aware of it. It’s so complex, it’s so cumbersome, and it’s so convoluted.

The delivery of police service, I think, from the B.C. Police Act, has to be uniform across the province. There should be no expectation that you’re safer in Delta than you are in Smithers or wherever. The B.C. Police Act is the bridge that sets the standard for all policing in British Columbia. So whether it’s Port Moody or Delta or Surrey, I believe that there should be an expectation, on the part of every citizen, that they receive the same quality of police service. That will be the challenge as we move forward.

It’s very timely for us, in the sense that you have, in the United States…. I don’t want to make any comparison between the way policing is done in the U.S. and in Canada, but we…. The old joke is: if the U.S. sneezes, Canada catches a cold.

[10:20 a.m.]

The same is true here. There is this “defund the police” thing going on in the States. There are some huge racial issues that I don’t think we face here.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think that we’re going to be at the leading edge. If this committee does the work that we should do, we’re going to be at the leading edge of the change that is coming, certainly, all across Canada and, perhaps, all across North America.

I think you’ll find it fascinating and exciting and not simple. It’s very complex. There are various drivers to policing issues that we don’t control, that the police don’t control. But there is an expectation that they can make a change.

A fascinating time. I think all of us are very lucky to be on this committee. I think if we do a survey before with each of you and a survey after, you’ll be amazed at the difference in the thought pattern that has developed. Most of us — again, with the greatest of respect — will never come into contact with the police during our entire lifetime. If we do, it’ll be because we got a speeding ticket or something simple.

None of us have a deep knowledge about it. The other way we get our knowledge is by watching a cop show on television, where everything happens in an hour. It’s done, and it’s over.

I think you’ll be fascinated by the process. At least I hope you will.

D. Routley (Chair): I appreciate that. I also know that in our context, First Nations and reconciliation are going to be a big part of this, obviously. I really look forward to making a difference in that way.

For me, we have RCMP and a lot of super attentive seniors. That’s our police force. There’s a silver patrol going on here, on the beat. I’d be interested in other jurisdictional issues, like around B.C. Transit policing. I assume that we’ll be considering that they will be affected by that.

Then there are other agencies it’ll be interesting to look at, even though it’s not in our jurisdiction. I’d like to know more, because I love railways, about railway policing and how that interacts with the RCMP and how there are different grey areas, affiliated services that are affected by the act.

R. Singh: Just a quick comment. I know we will get into more details in our next meeting when we talk more about what the committee is supposed to do. I just wanted to….

What Garry has said, just taking it on. This committee is going to be very challenging, as Garry said, very uncomfortable for many of us. We are looking at the systemic issues. As Garry mentioned, the Police Act…. It does not matter what kind of police you have. In B.C., we have different kinds. We have city police. We have RCMP.

What the systemic issues and what the barriers people are facing, on both sides — what the police is facing and what our general population is facing, especially related to our Indigenous populations…. Garry and I were on a committee together, and we did hear a lot from different stakeholders. That was an eye-opener for many of us. So just carrying forward that work.

This is the lens, I think, we should all have. There will be conversations that will come in this committee that won’t be easy, very discomforting. But this is what we have to deal with. We are trying to bring a change in B.C. — a change in the Police Act but also in the way everybody is treated. I just wanted to mention this.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you.

A. Olsen: If I may just add, Doug, I think there’s one…. All special constables in British Columbia fall under this Police Act.

I want to make sure that early in this conversation, we also have the B.C. conservation service as special constables that are regulated by the…. They are within the Ministry of Environment, way over here, but they’re responsible to the Police Act. I just wanted to make sure that that was on the agenda here in the conversation, as well, and that they don’t slip.

D. Routley (Chair): Thank you.

Would any other members like to contribute?

K. Riarh (Clerk to the Committee): Chair, perhaps if there are no other comments or business, we can inquire if a member would like to move the meeting be adjourned.

Katey and I will definitely take the comments that everyone here has made in helping to put together a workplan for members to review at the next meeting.

D. Routley (Chair): All right. I really appreciate this. I’m already learning, on the first call. I look forward to working with all of you. I’ve worked with most of you already in different committees and around the rock pile in Victoria.

New members, welcome.

With that, I would seek a member’s movement for ad­journment.

The Deputy Chair has moved adjournment.

Motion approved.

D. Routley (Chair): The meeting is adjourned. Thank you all very, very much. I look forward to scheduling the next meeting and to learning more.

The committee adjourned at 10:25 a.m.