The committee met at 9:05 a.m.

[N. Simons in the chair.]

Deliberations

N. Simons (Chair): Good morning, friends, colleagues, Members, Clerk’s office, Hansard. We’re glad to be here and to continue our review of the Representative for Children and Youth Act.

This may be the last substantive meeting on this subject. I know it’s been a bit difficult, because it’s quite complex. But with the guiding advice of Alayna, we’re going to probably get through it this morning.

Before you, you have, I hope, a physical copy of the review. I think, as usual, we should ask Alayna to walk us through these. I think we need to do that in camera, so a motion to go in camera would be….

Jennifer and Joan, thank you very much.

Motion approved.

The committee continued in camera at 9:06 a.m.

The committee recessed from 10:30 a.m. to 10:44 a.m.

[N. Simons in the chair.]

N. Simons (Chair): We have a series of motions now.

[10:45 a.m.]

I thank everyone for their patience, and thanks to the Clerk’s office for getting these documents in front of us.

We’ll begin with the first motion.

L. Throness: I move that: “The in-camera transcript of the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth meeting of February 21, 2018 for the time period 10:44 a.m. to adjournment shall remain confidential until the Committee’s report is formally presented to the Legislative Assembly. Following the report presentation, this portion of the February 21 transcript will be publicly available.”

Motion approved.

J. Isaacs: I move that: “The Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth adopt recommendations 1-8 inclusive, as amended today.”

Motion approved.

N. Simons (Chair): Who’d like the next…?

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees): Do you want to have Alayna read into the record the proposed wording, just for clarity?

N. Simons (Chair): Yes. We’re about to move recommendation 9 as amended today. It’s amended as follows.

A. Van Leeuwen: Subject to any further editorial changes that might be required, the tentative draft language of the nature of recommendation 9: “The committee recommends to the Legislative Assembly that the act be amended to require that in undertaking the functions under the act, the representative reflect the principles contained in the UN convention on the rights of the child.”

N. Simons (Chair): That’s the wording for recommendation 9, and we need a motion.

S. Furstenau: So moved that: “The Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth adopt recommendation 9 as amended today.”

N. Simons (Chair): All those in favour…?

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): Any discussion on the motion.

N. Simons (Chair): Yes, we can have discussion.

L. Throness: I appreciate the opportunity to address the committee on why I disagree with this motion. I would like to state my reasons for why I do not think we should incorporate the UN convention on the rights of the child.

The first reason is that it is already used as a guideline by the Representative for Children and Youth — and by government generally. It’s a fine document. I don’t object to the document at all. But it is already being used as a guideline, and that’s an appropriate place for it.

The second reason is that we have no legal opinion. There’s been no consideration by legislative drafters of this bill of the convention, which is, I would point out, larger than the act itself. Without that legal opinion, I don’t think we should go forward.

The third reason is that there are irrelevant parts in the convention. There are parts that are not relevant to the act, the representative’s function or office, or the act that we’re thinking about today. We don’t incorporate other irrelevant parts of other legislation, like species-at-risk legislation or forestry practice regulation. Why would we incorporate irrelevant parts from the convention?

Also, the convention has contradictory principles to our legislation. For example, the age of majority in the UN convention on the rights of the child is set at 18. In B.C. law, it is 19. Does that mean that the principle that we would adopt, or that the representative should adopt, is that the age of majority should be reduced from 19 to 18? It’s unclear, so I don’t think we should adopt it.

Four, there is no end to the adoption and the reference of other principles in the act. There are other UN declarations, and I would cite, specifically, UNDRIP, the UN declaration on the rights of Indigenous peoples, which has many references to children in it. Are we next going to reference that legislation? And there may be other declarations and conventions from the UN and from other bodies around the world. It just seems to me that it’s a slippery slope, and other things will necessarily, then, be demanded to be incorporated into our legislation.

The fifth reason is that I think law should be made in B.C. I don’t think that we should be incorporating U.S. legislation, for instance, or legislation from Europe. I think we should make our own law here. I would rather make our own law than simply adopt other laws.

[10:50 a.m.]

Six, there is a principle, in general, that protection should take place and precedence over rights. All public policy is a matter of emphasis. I think, in the law before us, we want to emphasize the protection of the government, which is the guardian of children in care, over the rights of those children. I think when you emphasize rights, it is to the detriment of protection. I think this law should emphasize protection. So I object to emphasizing rights as they are in the convention, although I would freely admit that rights and protection overlap. Yet the emphasis is on one or the other, and I think we should emphasize protection.

Next, I would say that this is what I would call political legislation. It is not serious law. It is more a talking point for the government and a feel-good measure. I don’t think that kind of thing belongs in legal instruments from this Legislature.

The next one is the idea that an act or a document that is larger than the act itself should be incorporated, by reference, into our act and really have it mean nothing, except in broad principles, yet there are pages and pages of type that are incorporated into our act. The idea that you can have something that means generally something but not specifically anything, to me, has no meaning in law. That is bad law, and I don’t think we should be passing bad law in this committee.

Finally, I would like to suggest an option. That is that there are many good points in the convention; there are many good principles. We, as a committee, could separate out those principles and say: “This principle we would like to adopt.” We could actually incorporate that into our legislation holus-bolus by adopting the actual wording of the principle in the UN convention and adopting it into our law as a principle of our law. But simply to take the whole convention and adopt its principles I think is, again, bad law.

In conclusion, Mr. Chair, I will vote against incorporating the UN convention on the rights of the child for the reasons I have stated. Thanks for the opportunity to speak.

N. Simons (Chair): Thank you very much, Laurie.

S. Furstenau: Thank you, Laurie. I appreciate your thoughtful and reflective comments. I just want to respond to one, when you say that protection of the government should prevail over rights of the children.

Given that we have a minister of the Crown, a federal minister, who has identified that the reality of Indigenous child welfare in Canada is a humanitarian crisis, we have a responsibility and a duty to recognize that protecting government over the rights of the children is a part of what has informed that humanitarian crisis. That we are in a humanitarian crisis means that we as legislators, we as decision-makers, need to look for other approaches to how things are being done that will produce different results. If we continue to act in the same manner, in the same way as we have been, we will perpetuate the same results. The crisis creates a need for us to look for other ways and other approaches.

I think this United Nations convention on the rights of the children is an additional lens for us to recognize that if we put children’s rights at the centre of our decision-making, I hope and expect that we will make better decisions.

N. Simons (Chair): Thank you very much, Sonia.

The motion is on the floor. I’ll call the vote.

A Voice: Division.

N. Simons (Chair): Division? Okay. So we’ll vote on it.

That’s a roll-call vote, I believe.

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): Yes. I’ll just quickly make a note to support the formal division. One moment, please.

[10:55 a.m.]

N. Simons (Chair): All those voting yea, could you please raise your hand.

All those voting nay, please raise your hand.

Seeing that it’s a tie….

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): I will call the results, and then you can determine how you wish to vote after that.

YEAS — 3
Singh	Rice	Furstenau
NAYS — 3
Wat	Isaacs	Throness

N. Simons (Chair): Laurie, you have a point of order?

L. Throness: A point of order. Just a question for, perhaps, the Clerk to answer. Is the Chair not required to vote in favour of the status quo in the event of a tie?

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): The practices of the Legislature are that when the votes are equal, the Chair has an obligation to cast a vote and, in doing so, will provide reasons therein. Reasons can refer to precedents in parliamentary practice or can also make reference to the views of the Chair, should a Chair choose to do so.

If you would like more extensive information, I would be pleased to do that if we take a brief recess. Or we can continue.

N. Simons (Chair): Committee members, I’m obligated to vote. Based on my understanding of the situation and my deeply held belief that this is important — to recognize worldwide, almost, consensus on child and children’s rights — I am voting in the affirmative to reflect my conscience. So the vote passes.

Motion approved on division.

N. Simons (Chair): Next motion.

Committee Report to the House

REPORT ON STATUTORY REVIEW OF
REPRESENTATIVE FOR
CHILDREN AND YOUTH ACT

J. Rice: I move that: “The Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth approve and adopt its report as amended today and further, that the committee authorize the Chair and Deputy Chair to work with committee staff to finalize any minor editorial changes to complete the supporting text.”

Motion approved.

N. Simons (Chair): The next motion, regarding…. Anyone can move it.

J. Rice: Now I would like to move that: “The Chair of the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth present the Committee’s Report to the Legislative Assembly at the earliest available opportunity.”

Motion approved.

N. Simons (Chair): We have concluded the deliberations on the amendments or the updating of the Representative for Children and Youth Act. I believe that concludes our discussions.

Motion to come out of camera first, please. Sonia has moved to come out of camera.

Motion approved.

The committee continued in open session at 11 a.m.

[N. Simons in the chair.]

N. Simons (Chair): We are out of camera, and now we need a motion to adjourn. Moved by Laurie, seconded by Rachna.

The committee stands adjourned. Thank you very much, everyone.

The committee adjourned at 11 a.m.