Children and Youth — Issue No. 24 — Wednesday, September 30, 2015 (HTML)

Present: Jane Thornthwaite, MLA (Chair); Doug Donaldson, MLA (Deputy Chair); Donna Barnett, MLA; Marc Dalton, MLA; Carole James, MLA; Maurine Karagianis, MLA; John Martin, MLA; Dr. Darryl Plecas, MLA; Jennifer Rice, MLA; Dr. Moira Stilwell, MLA

2. Resolved, that the Committee meet in-camera to consider and review its preliminary draft report outline on youth mental health. (Marc Dalton, MLA)

5. It was moved by Doug Donaldson, MLA that the Committee invite the Minister of Children and Family Development to appear before this committee at the next meeting to answer questions and provide information on recent developments concerning children in care.

6. The Committee received an update on pending reports of the Office of the Representative for Children and Youth which are expected to be considered at their upcoming meetings.

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON
CHILDREN AND YOUTH


CONTENTS
Page
Youth Mental Health Project Draft Report	589
Other Business	590
Committee Meeting Schedule and Agendas	593

J. Thornthwaite (Chair): Good morning, everybody. Welcome to the new session of the Select Standing Committee on Children and Youth. I'm Jane Thornthwaite, the Chair of the committee. We'll go around and introduce for the folks here, because we have some new members, and then we will resume our discussion on the direction that we will be giving our staff for the draft report on child and youth mental health. That's the only item, actually, that is on the agenda today. The representative will not be here today, but we can discuss when she's coming in our next meetings.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Doug Donaldson, MLA, Stikine, and Deputy Chair of the committee.

M. Dalton: Marc Dalton, MLA, Maple Ridge–Mission. Good to be back on the committee. I was on it a couple years when I first got elected.

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees): Good morning, everyone. I'm Kate Ryan-Lloyd, Clerk to the Committee.

We were just having a brief conversation — Kate was bringing us up to date — with regards to the possibility of having a more fruitful discussion if we went in camera.

As the Chair has noted, the agenda as circulated is focused today on your continuing deliberations on the youth mental health project and a review of the draft report outline. It's common for parliamentary committees to deliberate on a draft report, which will of course include, in the fullness of time, recommendations to the Legislative Assembly, during in-camera proceedings. That is a decision, of course, of the members of any given committee.

Most committees do follow that practice. There are some exceptions. Public Accounts Committee, as an example, does not tend to deliberate in camera on their draft reports to the House.

This morning, the agenda has you noted to continue your deliberations in a general sense on the topic of youth mental health, but we have also prepared, with the help of Alayna van Leeuwen, your research analyst, a preliminary report outline for your consideration. We very much invite your comments and input on that draft outline.

How you'd like to proceed now is very much in your hands. As the Chair noted, there is a practice of going in camera with respect to draft reports to the House, but very much a decision in your hands this morning.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Before I comment on the in-camera part, I just wanted to make sure you knew that under agenda item 2, "Any other business," I have a piece of business I want to introduce then. So just to make sure that's on the agenda before we have this talk about in camera.

I don't want to get into the draft outline, but I think that staff have done a pretty good job. We're a non-partisan committee, so to be able to discuss this…. We don't get a lot of media coverage on our committee, so it would be nice to be able to have our discussions around the draft outline in the public.

M. Dalton: I want to move that, following the practice, we move in camera for the discussions. When we come to a mutual decision right there, then that's released in the report. It's open for discussion, obviously.
[ Page 590 ]

M. Karagianis: I'm not concerned one way or the other if we go in camera or not. As long as we're reporting out afterwards, I don't have any issue with us doing that.

M. Karagianis: I don't have any issue with us going in camera. We're going to report out afterwards anyway. Given the indication from Kate, I'm not concerned one way or the other. If we go in camera, that's fine.

J. Thornthwaite (Chair): Welcome, people. We're back out of camera. I wanted to mention to everyone that I very, very much appreciate the frank discussion that we just had on the direction that we will be going forward with our youth mental health project.

Special thanks goes to Alayna for putting forward our draft. Obviously, it is universal agreement that you've done a remarkably good first step, and we're going to continue on with that direction. Everybody had their specific points and emphases that they wanted to bring up. Certainly, the number one, overarching issue is the integration of services cross-ministerial.

With that, without any further ado, we'll let Alayna finish her work. Then we'll be looking forward to the first version of the draft report that we can all take a look at which has encompassed not just everything that we heard during our deliberations and our written submissions but also our very fruitful and collaborative approach that we took today — a significant amount of agreement. That is always nice when we've got both sides of the House together working on, in my opinion, one of the most important issues that we have in front of us.

If everybody is okay with that, then we'll move on to any other business. That would be Doug.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Chair, thank you for this opportunity. Under "Other business," I have a motion that I would like to put in front of the committee. I'll give copies to the Clerk for distribution around to committee members.

I'll read the motion, Chair, if I can: "I move that the committee invite the Minister of Children and Family Development to appear before this committee at the next meeting to answer questions and provide information on recent developments concerning children in care."

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): The credibility of the ministry in the minds of the public has taken a hit with many of the recent events that we've seen over the last few months and right up till last week. I think that credibility hit is really impacting the ability of front-line workers to do the critical work that they need to do.

This is an opportunity for the minister to come before the committee to have a fruitful discussion in a forum of the Legislature that allows more time for discussion and more time for the minister to explain and talk about the events of the last several months and up till last week. I think it's a chance for a more fulsome discussion compared to question period and also a chance for the minister to have a more fulsome forum, rather than in the media and what we've seen.

That's the intent behind this motion. I see, really, no reason why the minister wouldn't look favourably on this invitation. It's an opportunity.

Finally, just to remind members, right off the bat, in the first sentence in the terms of reference for the committee is: "to foster greater awareness and understanding among legislators and the public of the B.C. child welfare system." This would be an opportunity for the minister to do that and for a forum where we can have a more fulsome discussion around the role of the ministry and the role of the minister.

C. James: Thank you, Chair, for the opportunity to speak in support of the motion. I want to speak in support for a couple of reasons.

We've often said around this committee — and we've had discussion, as a committee, all sides of the House — about how we sometimes get information from the representative that comes forward that is different than information than we get from the Ministry of Children and Families, and vice versa. We often have questions, around this committee, about why that information is different, why the direction is different from both of those parties.

To me, with the kinds of tragedies that have occurred over the last number of months in this ministry and with the goal of making sure that all of us do what we can together to be able to improve services and supports for children and families in this province, having the minister come forward to the committee and having a good discussion outside of question period….
[ Page 591 ]

It's an opportunity to be able to have more in-depth discussion and to be able to ask some of those questions, questions like: resources in the provinces — what's happened to resources for specialized children who need the supports? So some very basic, clear questions to provide support to the committee and to provide support to the public about how we care for our most vulnerable — that makes sense to me.

I think it's much more of an opportunity for us to have that discussion and to be able to talk about, when recommendations come forward, why there is a difference of opinion. What happens with that discussion? Where do those discussions go?

I see this as a positive direction for our committee to be able to move ahead the support that we want to provide to children in care around this table.

D. Barnett: Excuse me, Madam Chair. Who are these people that have come in the room? Could they identify themselves, please?

M. Karagianis: I would like to encourage the committee to be supportive of this motion for a number of reasons. We at this committee have endeavoured and been successful on numerous occasions in being non-partisan or working together for common solutions for children and youth. We've been very successful. We've been praised for doing that.

I think this is an opportunity for us to play a role in brokering this meeting and continuing the good work that we've done as a collective group of individuals who are concerned about children and youth in the province and to give the opportunity for the minister to come and have that discussion in an environment where she can talk fulsomely, where she can reassure us about what is happening in her ministry.

I just think we can play a really significant role as brokers of a discussion here that I think is needed. I would encourage us to do that. We've been very successful in that. I think one of the things we've all taken pride in is our ability to put partisanship aside and think about this committee and its work for children and youth as including all.

I think, as Carole has said, we have often played a good role in balancing off discussions between the children's representative and the ministry and bringing in all other ministries to talk about resources and keep a balanced playing field around discussions on children and youth. I would like us to see ourselves doing that again and playing that role here. I would hope that everyone would view it that way. I encourage everybody to support this resolution.

M. Stilwell: I would like to speak against the motion. First of all, I don't believe that it meets the terms of reference of the select standing committee. I think that Maurine's comment that this committee has tried very hard to work together in a bipartisan way for the highest and best purposes of the children of the province has been true. I think that this is a partisan motion. It's disappointing for me personally. It erodes our ability to work together.

There is no one who could not be touched by the recent death of the young man we have talked about in the Legislature. I do not believe that this motion serves any purpose to advance the cause of preventing that from ever happening again.

Finally, as Maurine has said, we have been successful at having ministers and deputy ministers come to talk to us, which has been relatively rare in my experience and in the past. I see this motion as eroding the credibility and confidence that we have built in our work. I feel it's destructive and partisan and serves no greater purpose. I absolutely am opposed to it.

D. Barnett: I, too, am opposed to this motion. I feel that what has happened to some of our citizens is something that we all regret, and we hope that things like that never happen again. But it is a fact of life that we are all human. We can't put blame on a minister for things that are not within the control of one person.

I feel that this motion will split this group. We've been very cohesive. We've worked well together. We've made some great strides and some great recommendations. We are here to do what is best for our citizens, and what is best for our citizens is to continue on with the collaborative work that we have been doing in the past and to bring great success for the future.

J. Rice: I don't know how to say this, but to say it simply and bluntly, we have for the last two years — except for MLA Dalton, who just joined the committee today — been working together on issues around children and youth. How can we, as the committee…? How can it be inappropriate for us to talk to the Minister of Children and Family Development? I don't see how this is not appropriate.

This is the work that we do. She is included, and she should be a part of the discussion. We should have every right to have that discussion in a fulsome manner and not necessarily in tidbits through question period or through media. Let's have a fulsome discussion in the bipartisan way, in the collaborative way that we've had for the last two years. Let's do it.
[ Page 592 ]

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Well, I disagree that this isn't in the mandate of the committee. As I already read out, and I'll read out again, the mandate of the committee is "to foster greater awareness and understanding among legislators and the public of the B.C. child welfare system." The terms of reference go on to say that we can "conduct consultations by any means the committee considers appropriate."

I think it's appropriate to give the minister an opportunity to come to this committee to discuss further…. I think it's burying our heads in the sand not to recognize that what's been happening — what's been transpiring in the media, reports on the events that we've seen — is creating a credibility problem within the ministry. I'm very concerned that that credibility concern is impacting front-line workers.

This is an opportunity. I don't see why the minister wouldn't accept and be favourable to it, and I don't see why other members of the committee aren't thinking that this is a great opportunity for the minister to come here and try to restore some of that credibility and enable the front-line workers to do the critical work that they're there to do.

M. Dalton: I want to speak against this motion. Just having joined the committee, I can really sense there is collaboration, working together, on these important issues. But I guess I'm disturbed that this motion wasn't even brought beforehand. Sometimes motions aren't brought beforehand, but we have the media here, and this does seem, certainly, politicizing. It seems to be really running contrary to the spirit of this committee. That's my observation. I will be voting against it.

D. Plecas: I would like to speak against the motion. However well intended, I'm just wondering if it's not premature at this point. I mean, presumably behind the motion is a concern about recent events. It would seem to me that we don't have enough information about anything that's been going on in very recent times to have a good readiness to have the line of questioning that we might want to have for the minister.

Whilst no doubt there are times when we ought to have the minister here, I'm not thinking we need to be doing this right now. I don't see how this is going to be productive at the moment, so unfortunately, I'm speaking against the motion.

J. Martin: I'll speak against the motion. This is a very obvious attempt to erode the bipartisan spirit of the committee over the last two years and an effort to politicize what we're doing here. I'll be not supporting it.

C. James: I just want to say that I can't think of a more important time, in fact, to have the minister come and speak. We've seen some very tragic events, and this is a very difficult ministry. There's no question that this is very difficult work. Child protection work is very difficult — no question — and tragedies are occurring. And that's all the more reason for those of us who sit around this table, who are here on this committee, to do what we can to try and support looking after some of the most vulnerable citizens in our province.

We have the Representative for Children and Youth come and speak to us. We have the Deputy Minister for the Ministry of Children and Families come to speak to us. It makes sense to me that we also have the Minister of Children and Families come to speak to us, to have an opportunity to talk about the resources that are being put in place, the resources that might be needed, the additional supports that need to be there, how the three parties can work together, how we can have the ministry and the representative and the deputy working together to improve things for children and families.

I see this not as a negative but, in fact, as a positive and as an opportunity to bring the people together, all the parties who work in the area of children and families, to say: "We need to work together to look at how we can improve things for children in care." Surely, that's a mandate for people around this table. Surely, that's a mandate for the minister, for the representative, for the deputy, and surely, it makes sense to have that kind of discussion at the committee. What could be more important right now?

Well, I think it's clear from the comments that we've just received from all of the members on the committee that if a vote was called, the motion would not pass. Personally, from my perspective as the Chair, I feel that this committee has done great work together, non-partisan work. We have an excellent committee, an excellent special project that we're working on right now with regards to child and youth mental health.

We will be putting forward recommendations to the ministries on items that we have identified as being very, very important. We also have a busy schedule coming up in this fall schedule. We've already determined that both October 6 and November 4 are meetings at which we will be talking about future direction of the committee as well as having the Representative for Children and Youth.

I agree with our member, Dr. Moira Stilwell, that we do have a lot of opportunities for people to present here, and we have heard from the deputy ministers of all ministries that are touched by children and youth. I think it's a little bit premature to have this motion. I would have appreciated a little bit more of a heads-up, given the fact that this is a non-partisan committee. But given the feedback that we've gotten from the groups, I'm going to say no — that it's a bit premature to have this motion and this vote.

Certainly, we will be discussing this issue further at upcoming meetings.
[ Page 593 ]

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): I believe this is legitimate work of the committee. Recent events, in reference to a member opposite, is going back till March. I think that this is important work. Reports can wait. It's an opportunity for the minister to come and be on the public record, which I would think she would welcome.

J. Thornthwaite (Chair): Can we put forward a motion to move on to the next item?

J. Thornthwaite (Chair): The next item on the agenda is the future meetings. Our Clerk has sent out a note as to the dates. I already alluded to them: October 6 and November 4.

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): Yes. Although the agendas have not yet been formally set for your upcoming meetings, as the Chair indicated, the next two scheduled meetings are Tuesday, October 6, from 8 a.m. till 9:30, and Wednesday, November 4, from 9 a.m. till 12 noon.

There are a number of reports of the representative's office that are pending for review. In the next few days or so, we would hope to provide you with a draft agenda. The reports that are likely to be included are one on parental addictions that the committee has not yet dealt with from 2014.

The annual report and service plan of the Office of the Representative for Children and Youth was released just last week. It is ideal for this committee to review and consider that report before its formal referral to the Finance and Government Services Committee.

At the longer meeting in November, it is proposed that the committee consider Paige's Story, which of course is a significant report from the representative's office that was released a few months ago, as well as a newer report, Growing up in B.C., a joint report with the provincial health officer.

We'll be certainly pleased to facilitate any arrangements for the committee along those lines with respect to your next agendas.

M. Karagianis: Maybe I missed it. Do we have a timeline for the next draft of our project that we're doing on our mental health report?

J. Thornthwaite (Chair): I guess the question, then, would go to Alayna. How do you see your timeline with regards to when you think you could get us a first draft? Are we talking weeks, months, days?

A. van Leeuwen: You'll certainly have a draft of this baby before my baby comes home. I'll promise you that much. [Laughter.]

A. van Leeuwen: I'm due November 10. I expect I could probably turn around a preliminary draft, at least for the benefit of the Chair and the Deputy Chair to have an initial discussion, within a space of about a week. I guess, Kate, feel free to confirm, but we have not yet scheduled a specific meeting of the committee to sit down and review it together.

M. Karagianis: That was really the purpose of my questions. We've set two meetings, and I wanted to see how the timetable for our reports fits into that.

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): Just for clarification. Certainly, we'd like to keep members well informed on Alayna's progress on the draft report. With Helen's assistance as well, we'd like to set aside some time on October 6 for a general update. Then, going forward, certainly by November 4, we'd like to designate some more time for discussion and review if there are no intervening meetings refocused on the report in the interim.

J. Thornthwaite (Chair): Is everybody okay with that schedule? So we do have an opportunity…. Obviously, when we get the report, the draft, we'll be able to make our comments before we actually have to have a discussion on those two dates.

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Chair:	* Jane Thornthwaite (North Vancouver–Seymour BC Liberal)
Deputy Chair:	* Doug Donaldson (Stikine NDP)
Members:	* Donna Barnett (Cariboo-Chilcotin BC Liberal)
	* Marc Dalton (Maple Ridge–Mission BC Liberal)
	* Carole James (Victoria–Beacon Hill NDP)
	* Maurine Karagianis (Esquimalt–Royal Roads NDP)
	* John Martin (Chilliwack BC Liberal)
	* Dr. Darryl Plecas (Abbotsford South BC Liberal)
	* Jennifer Rice (North Coast NDP)
	* Dr. Moira Stilwell (Vancouver-Langara BC Liberal)
	* denotes member present
Clerk:	Kate Ryan-Lloyd

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON CHILDREN AND YOUTH

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON
CHILDREN AND YOUTH