Timber Supply — Issue No. 1 — Thursday, May 17, 2012 (HTML)

Present: John Rustad, MLA (Chair); Norm Macdonald, MLA (Deputy Chair); Harry Bains, MLA; Donna Barnett, MLA; Eric Foster, MLA; Bill Routley, MLA; Ben Stewart, MLA

1. There not yet being a Chair elected to serve the Committee, the meeting was called to order at 8:04 a.m. by the Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees.

2. Resolved, that John Rustad, MLA, be elected Chair of the Special Committee on Timber Supply. (Donna Barnett, MLA)

3. Resolved, that Norm Macdonald, MLA, be elected Deputy Chair of the Special Committee on Timber Supply. (Bill Routley, MLA)

4. The Committee considered its terms of reference and discussed its preliminary consultation and meeting plans.

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON
TIMBER SUPPLY


CONTENTS
Page
Election of Chair and Deputy Chair	1
Committee Terms of Reference and Meeting Schedule	1

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Deputy Clerk and Clerk of Committees): Good morning, Members. As this is the first meeting of the Special Committee on Timber Supply and the committee has not yet met to elect a Chair, the first item of business will be to open up the floor to nominations for the position of Chair.

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): Thank you. All right, so make a note that Mr. Rustad has been nominated. I'll pose the question three times. Any further nominations? Any further nominations? Any further nominations?

J. Rustad (Chair): Thank you, and welcome, everybody. Our next order of business is to elect a Deputy Chair, and I'll put it to the floor for nominations.

J. Rustad (Chair): Are there any other nominations? Any other nominations? Last time, any other nominations?

J. Rustad (Chair): I handed out this morning a quick one-pager on a potential schedule. I know that people haven't had an opportunity to look at it, and we'll have to go away and maybe think about that and come back next week. I wanted to talk a little bit around the work schedule that I see us having to do to get this done.

The terms of reference are fairly specific, especially around the time. To have a report done by August 15 is going to be a bit of a challenge. In particular, what I'd like to do today is….

If you look at the bottom of the page that was handed out, there's a list of communities that I was thinking that we should look at and consider for a tour — to go out and do public consultation with. I'm wondering. Does anybody think there are any other communities that we should go to or some of these communities that perhaps we don't need to go to?

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): Again, I think, having just seen it, we did have some discussions about the communities. Maybe what we'll do is have a look at it, go away and just come back to it at the next meeting, if there are any additions or deletions.

Perhaps the one suggestion I'd make as we look at the schedule is just around Burns Lake and the fact that the community has suffered that tragedy. We might be thinking about, as a sign of respect, going there first or making sure that we're in there early. But I'd leave it with others as to what they think.

Also, with Prince George we have to give consideration to Lakeland. Whatever the committee thinks, but I think one of the first things we might want to consider is how we make sure that we're respectful to the communities that have suffered tragedies.

E. Foster: Time constraints are certainly the major issue. There are other areas that have been impacted, certainly not to the degree of these communities, and I don't see us having an opportunity to travel to those communities. I would like at some time in our discussions to have a bit of an opportunity to discuss, for example, the Okanagan — the southern part of the valley and that sort of thing.

Up in the Revelstoke area there are some areas, and in the Kootenays, that have been impacted to a lesser degree but that I think should be part of the conversation as well. I don't expect to be able to travel to all those places, for sure, but I think we should add them into the conversation a little bit.

D. Barnett: Just a couple of things. I'll tell you up front right now that Thursday, June 7, is not good for me as my only grandson is graduating that day, and grandma's going.
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D. Barnett: Yes. I think that's the only day. I think what would be very wise of us is if we were to meet with the pine beetle coalitions. They have an awful lot of information, and I think they could be a very good asset to us — to have discussions with each one of them. We have three of them. We have the SIBAC, OBAC and CCBAC.

J. Rustad (Chair): That's fair enough, and I agree that when we're out, that would be a good group to meet with. I'm just looking through the terms of reference to see if we're restricted in terms of the area. I know the intent is around the areas that have been most significantly impacted by the pine beetle, and there certainly are other areas in the province that have had, to a lesser degree, as you said, Eric. We'll have to consider how we do that.

I'm thinking for some of this, as well, once we determine sort of what the potential range of options could be — not necessarily what we would accept but what the potential options could be — that that will go out for consultation. There will be an opportunity for public input from all around the province from various groups for a period of time. There will be a chance for some of those other areas to be able to have some input that we may not be able to travel to.

H. Bains: One other thing, talking about consultation. I think it may be already covered under when we talk about communities. The workers' groups who work in the forest industry — I think we need to make a special emphasis that we hear their side, whether they come under these community visits or we set aside a special time for them.

J. Rustad (Chair): I agree, and I think that would probably be the intent when we're out as part of our community consultation groups. But it's a very good point.

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): If we're talking specifically on the schedule, I think one of the challenges we're going to have is, of course, with the schedule. You can't miss that. I think there are a number of things we're going to run into that people simply can't miss.

As much as possible, we can try to work within it, but I think that at some point, as a committee, we just have to accept the time constraints we have and the realities that people are incredibly busy. I've sat trying to find commonalities in schedules, and it just does not happen.

The Chair and the vice-Chair will sit down and do the best we can to accommodate people's schedules, but I think we have to sort of set dates and speak to our respective caucuses and have them understand that this has to be a priority as much as possible. We'll just make the best of it. I mean, there are personal things you cannot miss, and I think everyone accepts that. Then we'll do the best we can with the time that we have.

The understanding I have is that there would be an opportunity — and maybe it's the Vancouver date — where we would get experts to come in. I have no doubt that professional foresters will want to speak to us — steelworkers, PPWC and, I imagine, licensees. It might be that the Vancouver time is where you anticipate setting aside a space and inviting a variety of groups.

I can think of a dozen or more that will have good information to share with us, which represent provincial bodies. I'm assuming that the Vancouver date you're talking about, or a date further on, is the opportunity for those provincial groups to participate.

J. Rustad (Chair): I agree that we will be going out to the communities, but we will have to set aside a couple of days — one to three days, depending on how many groups would like to come in and present. Whether that's Vancouver or Victoria, we'll obviously try to utilize the best location we can and utilize our time as efficiently as possible.

When I'm looking at the schedule, though — and you made a good point about this being a priority — we have a tight time frame. If we're going to visit all these communities plus the dates for provincial presentations, we are probably going to need 11 or maybe 12 days of tour time. Of course, we have the long weekends that are part of that. We need a couple of weeks for the report to be able to be written, and staffing work through there. This is going to be a very, very tight time frame.

What I'd like to maybe throw out there is that the week of the 18th, the week of July 2, the week of July 9 and the week of July 16 would be the weeks that we would consider for tours. That would give us the week of the 25th as a break week. Potentially, if we can get the work done, maybe we'd even have July 2 as a break week from the committee as well so that people can have a family break and be able to spend some time.

J. Rustad (Chair): That's a pretty important date. I've got that scheduled, so we'll have to see….

B. Stewart: Could you repeat those weeks? I was thinking you said July….
[ Page 3 ]

J. Rustad (Chair): Sure. The week of June 18, the weeks of July 2, July 9 and July 16. I don't think we can go any earlier than the 18th. I also don't think we can go any later than the week of the 16th. If we go later than the week of the 16th, it's going to be very, very difficult for us to be able to complete our work, get that information compiled, have our discussions around recommendations and actually be able to meet a deadline of August 15.

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): The other thing that's in there is…. There are rumours of coming back here in July too, and I don't know what dates that would be. I guess none of us will know until we're called back, but that might be something that we have to be aware of as a possibility.

J. Rustad (Chair): Yes, the schedule may need to be a little flexible. But that's what I was thinking about that.

B. Stewart: How do you envision the community consultation taking place? A whole day in the community or…? I'm thinking about the travel time, having done a rural caucus tour last summer. I'm thinking about the amount of time.

Realistically, there are 15 communities. What's the amount of time that's going to be satisfactory to consult with workers and people that are…? I'm assuming that a lot of these people are working, so midday I'm sure that some of them will take time off, but the other ones are trying to make a living.

J. Rustad (Chair): Yes, maybe just in response to that. The Finance Committee and other committees of the Legislature that have toured…. Of course, everything that we'll be doing will be in public. It'll be recorded by Hansard. Hansard will need to come. They'll need setup time, takedown time, etc. — those types of things. It'll be webcast so that people can listen in, if they choose, around the province.

The most we'll probably be able to do is two communities a day. The thought around that is to sort of go in the morning into one community, have meetings with perhaps mayor and councils, First Nations and other groups as a round-table discussion, and then have an opportunity to follow with a public presentation period, which is where a number of groups would be able to come in and spend some time with us, have a discussion around the items.

Have that wrapped up, probably a couple of hours to travel from one community to the next and for Hansard to be able to set up, and then do a second one in the afternoon and early evening.

It'll be a busy schedule to do. The Clerk's office is pretty good around it. Likely what it'll mean is that we'll have to fly. We'll have to do a charter and hop from community to community. I don't see any other way to be able to cover the ground and be able to get there and set up.

E. Foster: I would refer back to Norm's comments about everybody trying to work their schedule. We could be into August trying to plan it. You guys have got to sit down and figure out the best way to do it, and then we'll have to try and accommodate. It's the summer, and everybody…. My dog tried to bite me last week when I went home, so I know I'm not getting home enough.

I certainly bow to the Chairs to do that, and then we'll just have to try to fit it in. If you can't get to everything, you can't get to everything. We'll try our very best to do it. I think that's the only way to work the thing out. I really do.

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): In terms of First Nations protocols, I know that there are nation-to-nation things that we need to be mindful of and sensitive to. I wouldn't pretend to be in any way an expert on what that entails, but I know that within the terms of reference we've been tasked with consulting with First Nations. I know that there's a whole host of things that need to be considered.

I wonder if the Chair has people that will understand the responsibilities that we have in doing that, to make sure that we don't inadvertently, as a committee, show disrespect in any way. I know it wouldn't be purposely, but I think it's one that we have to be mindful of.

J. Rustad (Chair): I think that's a good point. This likely would not be considered consultation from a perspective, but this would be considered discussion with the various communities. If there were any particular changes that would be recommended by the committee, obviously there would have to be something more extensive that would be involved in it from a legal perspective.

J. Rustad (Chair): Having said that, like I say, if we did two communities a day and we went five days, of course we could do ten communities in a week. In theory, you could do all of the community consultation in a two-week period. If we went four days, we might have to carry that over into a third week.

The other components that I was thinking about with this…. I'm very familiar with forestry, and everybody
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else is to some degree or another. I think we want to have some information that would come to the committee initially — to talk about how the timber supply review is done, to talk about what the mountain pine beetle situation is.

I'm hopeful that we're going to be able to do that in the last week of May. I raise that now because we won't have time between now and then to get together to talk about a schedule. I'm going to be looking for two meeting dates during that last week of May, which will kind of set the frame of the work that we would have before us.

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): Certainly, I agree. We're here for those four days. It's going to be tremendously busy, but I think that if we cannot schedule during the working day, we look at periods before the working day starts or in the evenings, as much as are available. We're working, I think, well into the evening.

I agree that as much of that work that we can do, we should do. That would be the basic briefings. Yeah, sensibly, I think that's what we would do.

J. Rustad (Chair): One thing I would point out, with having the third House open and since these meetings are public meetings that will be broadcast, is that we will not be able to do these meetings during the hours of the Legislature. That means we'd either have to do very late at night, which I'm not preferring to do; we would have to do over a lunch break, which I think is too short a period of time; or we're going to have to do an early morning meeting to be able to get a couple of hours of time, to be able to make things work.

D. Barnett: I think early morning is great — from, say, seven to nine, or to ten.

E. Foster: For those of us who have worked in the forest industry, that's the middle of the afternoon.

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): Well, I'm on a different time zone, so that's from eight till ten to me. I agree. I think a two-hour period, seven to nine, is a reasonable way to go. I think that can work.

J. Rustad (Chair): I was just informed by the Clerk that the two days that look to be most open next week in terms of other parliamentary committees that we would not run into interference with would be Monday and Thursday. Now, I understand that, but for Monday, it would mean everybody would have to be down on Sunday night. Is Monday something that the members would be interested in?

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): I should know the schedule better, but Monday is usually a day where the committee room isn't used. Is it possible that we would have this room available for the Monday morning and go from seven for an extended period?

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): A couple of options. If members were available earlier on Monday morning — let's say 8 a.m. to 10 a.m. — we could make those arrangements. As you know, the House sits on Monday mornings in private members' time only. Unless you were required to be in the chamber between ten and noon, this room is not in use for supply debates or bills, so we could have use of this room on Monday morning after 10 a.m. as well.

On Tuesday morning I think there is a Children and Youth meeting from eight to ten, and on Wednesday I think — of course, the House isn't sitting — there is one committee meeting. Those of you who might be involved with the Health Committee may have another commitment that morning. But we could do something Wednesday morning.

Thursday does not yet have any committee meetings, so we could, beginning at 8 a.m. or whichever time worked for you, look at that as an option.

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): Can I suggest, then, if we can look at using this room Monday morning from eight for as long as we need it. I know that members often have obligations on that day, but it's possible that some of our colleagues could look after obligations in the private members' time. We could go for an extended period of time, from eight till as long as we need.

If we need more time for briefings, and it would be nice to have as much time as we feel that we need, then we can go to the Wednesday and do much the same thing, where we start at eight and go as long as we feel we need. Then we can cover it off and feel that we're going into this with….

J. Rustad (Chair): Just from my own perspective, I've got commitments on Monday morning at ten that I can't avoid at this particular point.

It could very easily be that if we wanted to try for three hours on Monday…. I think two hours is probably enough for the forest inventory component. If we needed some more time, we could perhaps go seven till ten, but that would be a challenge for me.

J. Rustad (Chair): Then Wednesday, I believe, because the Health Committee is meeting…. Obviously, I don't necessarily have to be there for that meeting, for myself. I don't know about other commitments. Thursday mor-
[ Page 5 ]
ning is open, if we want to try to do that. But if Thursday morning doesn't work….

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): Okay. Well, these are options. I think, as Chair, that you can examine what goes on. I think it's also possible that if we stretch into a time period where you need to step away…. You do have more familiarity with these issues. Perhaps as we head into the fourth hour, if that's what we decide to do, we can simply continue with….

J. Rustad (Chair): Why don't I suggest that we go for eight o'clock on Monday morning, eight till ten, and if we can't get all of that first stuff done, we'll make sure we've got additional hours free on the Wednesday or the Thursday to fit in the second component as well.

J. Rustad (Chair): Okay, good. Like I say, the two topics, I'm thinking, for the last week. The first one is around the forest inventory and the timber supply review so that people are comfortable with how that process works and the information that goes into it. The second one is on the pine beetle — a bit of a history of the pine beetle and what the impact of the pine beetle is going forward.

I think we may try working into that the discussion around what the constraints are and what they look like and those sorts of things, just so everybody has the same knowledge and language and understanding of the issues that we have in front of us so that when we go into the following week and start looking at what all the potential options are for expanding the fibre basket, people are comfortable with what we're talking about in terms of the numbers and the process.

H. Bains: Just as far as these dates are concerned, individually if there are some issues, then we are to go to the Chair and vice-Chair.

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): Yes, I think that's the sensible way to do it. What's sensible to me is that in terms of the communities, I can communicate with the Chair as to what feedback we get as to what additional communities, or any feedback on the communities.

The same thing with dates. I think I'll pass along to the Chair any possible conflicts. I think we all accept that we're just going to have to go and do the best that we can with the commitments that people have. I think that's the best way for that to work.

Just as we are getting towards the wrap-up, I think we need to put on record that when the terms of reference were set, we did send a letter to Minister Thomson outlining the issues we had with the terms of reference. I don't think it's worth revisiting that, because we did put on record the things that we thought we'd be better off looking at in terms of addressing job stability and community sustainability, creating a more accurate inventory and developing a plan to substantially improve healthy forests.

We did put that forward. We have the terms of reference we have, and I think that all of us are excited to get to work. Regardless of the fact that it seems narrow, I think within it there's a tremendous opportunity to learn. I know that from discussions we've had over the years, John, and with Eric and others, that we're excited about this opportunity. This is something we — Bill and I and Harry and others — have wanted to do for a long time.

K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk of Committees): For clarification for some members who may not have worked with our office yet on a committee assignment, we will, through our office, send out a proposal of schedules once the Chair and the Deputy Chair have had a time to look at the details.

Of course, as was discussed, your input is always welcome at every stage of the process. We will try and confirm as many specifics as we can in advance, and then you can indicate to us what your availability is. We'll go forward and keep everybody informed once the details are all confirmed.

Given the scope of the work that lies ahead, I anticipate that Susan Sourial, who all of you know, and I will be sharing the workload of this committee throughout the weeks ahead. We look forward to helping you with every aspect of your work.

N. Macdonald (Deputy Chair): Just one last thing, John, in terms of technical support. I know that we have expertise that is going to provide technical support, and there's an opportunity…. It was one addition that was made after discussions with the minister in terms of the possibly of additional technical support.

Part of the discussion I'd like to have with you is putting forward some names that I think would be beneficial for the group to consider. If you look at the estimates debate that was done on inventory…. I would recommend that you read it. Obviously, in that debate, on the opposition side, we had good support from people who have tremendous knowledge on inventory, and I think
[ Page 6 ]
it would be useful for the whole group to have that perspective as well.

I put that to you, and we can discuss that as a committee. I think that's a discussion for a later time.

J. Rustad (Chair): I agree. We'll do what we can through this process to have as much information as required so that we can do the best job we can.

With that, is there any other business anybody would like to raise at this time?

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Chair:	* John Rustad (Nechako Lakes BC Liberal)
Deputy Chair:	* Norm Macdonald (Columbia River–Revelstoke NDP)
Members:	* Harry Bains (Surrey-Newton NDP)
	* Donna Barnett (Cariboo-Chilcotin BC Liberal)
	* Eric Foster (Vernon-Monashee BC Liberal)
	* Bill Routley (Cowichan Valley NDP)
	* Ben Stewart (Westside-Kelowna BC Liberal)
	* denotes member present
Clerks:	Kate Ryan-Lloyd
	Susan Sourial

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS (Hansard)

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON TIMBER SUPPLY

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON
TIMBER SUPPLY