2009 Legislative Session: First Session, 39th Parliament

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

MINUTES AND HANSARD

MINUTES SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

Wednesday, October 14, 2009

9 a.m.

Summit Room, Hudson Bay Lodge

3251 East Highway 16, Smithers, B.C.

Present: John Les, MLA (Chair); Doug Donaldson, MLA (Deputy Chair); Norm Letnick, MLA; Don McRae, MLA; Michelle Mungall, MLA; Bruce Ralston, MLA; Bill Routley, MLA; Jane Thornthwaite, MLA; John van Dongen, MLA

Unavoidably Absent: John Rustad, MLA

1. The Chair called the Committee to order at 9:00 a.m.

2. Opening statements by John Les, MLA, Chair

3. The following witnesses appeared before the Committee and answered questions:

4. The Committee adjourned at 11:20 a.m. to the call of the Chair.

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

select standing committee on
Finance and Government Services

Wednesday, October 14, 2009

Issue No. 6

ISSN 1499-4178

[ Page 161 ]

WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 14, 2009

The committee met at 9 a.m.

[J. Les in the chair.]

J. Les (Chair): Good morning, everyone. My name is John Les. I'm the MLA for Chilliwack and the Chair of this parliamentary committee. I'd like to welcome everyone who is here this morning.

Every year, in preparation for the oncoming year's budget, the Minister of Finance releases a discussion paper by September 15, as he did again this year. That paper presents a current fiscal forecast. It also identifies the key issues that he or she will need to address in the upcoming budget.

The paper provides a focus for the consultations that are undertaken by this committee. It includes information on how members of the public may provide their views on the priorities that should be incorporated in the budget.

This committee is the parliamentary committee which is responsible to conduct consultations on the forthcoming budget. Our committee is required to report back to the Legislature on November 15 of this year, so we obviously don't have a lot of time.

This year we are going to be holding ten public hearings in different parts of the province. These hearings have been scheduled in conjunction with the ongoing session of the Legislature, from which we have one week's respite this week.

Our first hearings were held in Vancouver and Victoria. In the provincial capital we also held video conferencing sessions last week, where we heard from residents of Courtenay, Cranbrook and Dawson Creek.

In addition to the hearing this morning here in Smithers and later this afternoon in Prince George, we will also be travelling to Kamloops, Kelowna and Surrey, with another video conferencing session scheduled for next Wednesday. We will then start our deliberations to produce the report for, as I said, no later than November 15.

If you have not yet received the Budget 2010 consultation paper, there are printed copies on the registration desk at the back.

In addition to the public hearings there are, of course, a number of other ways that people can get involved and share their ideas with us. We accept written submissions by letter or by e-mail. For the first time we are also inviting people to submit video and audio files. Further information on how people can use one of these methods is available on our website.

Any public input that the committee receives, however it's presented, is given the same full consideration as any oral presentation that might be made here today. Our deadline to receive any type of submission is Friday, October 23.

Today we're going to hear from a number of presenters, who may speak for up to ten minutes each with up to five minutes allowed for committee members to ask questions. If there is time at the end of this morning, there will be an open-mike session with five minutes for each presentation at that time.

I'd now like to ask the other members of the Finance Committee to introduce themselves, starting with Bruce.

B. Ralston: Bruce Ralston, MLA for Surrey-Whalley.

M. Mungall: Michelle Mungall, MLA for Nelson-Creston.

B. Routley: Bill Routley, MLA for Cowichan Valley.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Doug Donaldson, MLA for Stikine, and Deputy Chair.

D. McRae: I'm Don McRae, MLA for Comox Valley.

J. Thornthwaite: Jane Thornthwaite, North Vancouver– Seymour.

J. van Dongen: John van Dongen, Abbotsford-South.

J. Les (Chair): We also have with us this morning Kate Ryan-Lloyd, the Clerk; Stephanie Hansen at the back of the room, who is staffing the registration desk; as well as two staff members from Hansard, Michael Baer and Gail Swetlow. They are, of course, going to diligently record everything that's said by anyone today.

With those formalities out of the way, I'd now like to call on Michael Mehr to start off our hearing this morning.

Presentations

M. Mehr: Good morning. My name is Michael Mehr, and I am a partner at a local public accounting firm, Edmison Mehr Chartered Accountants, here in Smithers. I'd like to thank the committee for being here again this year. I had the pleasure of presenting to the committee last year, and I do believe that these local consultations are given great importance in the budget process.

The issues that I really wanted to discuss last year — being Highway 37 electrification, improved fairness on the carbon tax rebate to rural communities, harmonization of GST-PST and an increase to the small business deduction to $500,000 — were fully implemented during the past year. So I had a good four-for-four day, and I'm hoping to continue the hitting streak today.

I've been a partner at Edmison Mehr since 1997, and our firm was created in 1957 here in Smithers, so there
[ Page 162 ]
is a fair amount of history. We have extensive ties with local businesses in Smithers and the surrounding area.

My business partner and I and our firm as a whole are very passionate about our community. We enjoy doing business here, but more importantly, we enjoy raising our families and building friendships here.

[0905]

Last year I spoke about the importance of future diversity in our northern economy giving us the tools that would create diverse business opportunities in order to further the economy. I still believe that's incredibly important for us, but the events of the past year have made that not necessarily back burner but definitely long term. We need projects that help us right away.

Here in Smithers we're known as the mining centre of the north, and we were somewhat insulated from the global crisis that occurred — for the beginning of it, anyway — because mining remained somewhat strong. It was more the forestry-dependent communities in the north that were hit right off the start. Smithers has joined in, unfortunately, a little bit there, with the magnitude of the global economic crisis.

I have some information here about some of the doom and gloom. You've seen, I'm sure, some of the numbers. Unemployment is up in our region to 10.8 percent from 7.7. We've seen more bankruptcies. We've seen other numbers decrease, like hotel room revenue, building permits and business incorporations — indicative of a weaker economy.

One of the areas where we have some hope is in potential capital investment in our region. In June '09 the B.C. major projects inventory list had $2.4 billion in total projects. That's a significant increase over the prior year. Where we look for some hope there is that of the 12 projects on that list, seven are new mines.

Here's where I look to try and communicate that the idea of getting several — one, a number — of these mines into operation is the one thing that can most immediately benefit our region. I definitely want to stress that, and anything the provincial government can do from a budget process to facilitate that is, I think, a high priority for our region.

The provincial government has already done some fantastic things for us. The electrification of Highway 37 is absolutely imperative to quite a number of our projects. It reduces the high cost of capital and operating, of creating power from other sources for mines up in the north. That's definitely a huge step forward.

The HST is also a huge step forward, making mines more viable. It's been estimated that…. The Prosperity mine down near 100 Mile House that is planned expects that the HST implementation will save them about $10 million in the costs of developing that mine and operating it. That's not a small number when you're looking at your break-even points. The HST certainly is making the mining sector look a little more favourable — these projects.

By the same token, the forestry sector will see similar benefits from the HST. We're looking at, hopefully, a little bit of help there, for areas like Fort St. James and Vanderhoof, making it a little less expensive to operate forestry-related industries.

I do have a number of clients in the mining industry in Smithers here, and I have had numerous conversations with them. "What's the number one impediment to…?" "Why don't we have new mines opening?"

It seems that it's getting caught, obviously, in the planning stage. We're not getting to the operating stage. I recognize that this is an incredibly delicate area. I think the majority of us want economic development, but I also think the majority of us want to protect our community's culture and environment. There's a huge balancing act there.

I'm not suggesting that we fast-track any projects through, but anything that the provincial government can do to facilitate these potential projects moving to operations is the one thing that's going to have the most impact in our area. I really do wish to stress that.

I think that this is one area where, with the magnitude of the potential impact…. I just want to suggest that maybe now is not the time to have less expertise and staff available to facilitate the process of getting mines into operation. I do really want to stress that point.

The HST is another area I want to speak about. I've been pounding the table to whoever will listen to me about the HST for at least ten years, saying that I think it's a fantastic idea, that it's effective taxation. The main reason for that is….

[0910]

I have a small business practice, and I see the impact of what GST and PST as separate tax vehicles has on business overall over the past many years. For me, the best benefit of the HST is the efficiency for small business.

Having said that, I'm a little concerned about some of what I hear out there with respect to restriction of input tax credits and, also, the possibility of developing exemptions for specific situations where industries may be harder hit than others.

The beauty of this tax is that it's straightforward and simple and reduces administrative work for small business. Any changes in the transition period where we implement HST…. I'm hoping that the simplicity is paramount and is considered when developing the policies around the transition.

From what I understand, it's been proposed that large businesses with taxable annual sales in excess of $10 million worldwide may have some restrictions on their input tax credits. I just want to maybe suggest that I don't think $10 million worldwide sales is actually all that large. If I have clients that have more than $10 million worldwide sales, I don't think that's necessarily what I would consider a large corporation.

I have several such clients, and typically, those clients have an accounting department of no more than three
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people. So I don't think of them as large, complex organizations that have the systems to deal with a whole bunch of minute rules regarding input tax credit restrictions.

I would like to suggest that…. The best case would be that there are no restrictions. I doubt very much that that's a viable option. But if restrictions are introduced, then I'd like them to be as simple and straightforward as possible.

Secondly, perhaps the threshold could be raised from the $10 million mark, because I still think you're catching some businesses with fairly simple accounting systems. They're still using Simply Accounting, a $600 or $700 accounting package, and meeting those sales within what that program can provide. I might suggest to you that that threshold could be raised somewhat if the restrictions do come in.

The other one was the idea that if there is some discussion about relief to certain industries, businesses, sectors that are going to be very hard hit by the HST — and they do exist even…. I am still a huge fan of the HST. My preference if there's any relief to be provided is that it be provided outside the HST system, because the beauty of this tax is that it's administratively straightforward. The more that things get monkeyed with, with the exemptions, the more complex it becomes.

If there is relief to be provided, I believe there are other mechanisms. My favourite would be the idea of a refundable tax credit. There is an existing system that seems to be operating quite well, that being the apprenticeship training program. I think that would be a more effective vehicle for providing relief if there is relief planned for certain industries.

On my drives around town recently I've noticed that hotel parking lots are pretty full. I'm excited about that because I've got some clients in the hotel business. The reason for that is that it's a busy time of year here. There are plenty of hunters and fishermen in the area. Most of them are staying at lodges, but they do stay in the hotels on their way in and out.

Currently when they pay their fee to the lodge to provide their week's visit or whatever the case is, they're able to get a 50 percent rebate on the GST on that. I haven't heard anybody in the press talk about whether, with the HST, that rebate would be available on the full HST or just the GST portion, and I would like to encourage you to consider that.

These lodges do compete on a worldwide basis. I've got a client who has other businesses in Mongolia and Brazil. His fishing clients…. His lodges here compete with his lodges there, so it is definitely a global business for the international tourist dollar. I'm hopeful that that 50 percent rebate would apply to the full HST once it's implemented.

To quickly summarize, there are huge challenges in the north. I think that in meeting those challenges in the short term, we need to look at the environmentally, socially and culturally sound mining projects, do our very best to move those forward, bring the parties to the table and get past the hurdles that have kept those from proceeding in the past.

[0915]

I also look to the provincial government to continue to support the key infrastructure projects in the long term so that we can diversify our economy, which is imperative. We need the port. We need highway improvements, the runway extension. Those types of projects all provide us with the infrastructure to do different business concepts.

Provincially, I'm hopeful that the administrative burden that the HST creates — as I said, a big fan — as it comes in is kept to an absolute minimum.

That concludes my remarks today. I'm happy to take any questions.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you, Michael. First question is from Jane.

J. Thornthwaite: I'd just like you to clarify with regards to your comments about the mining industry. You are saying that you want the provincial government to do whatever it needs to do to facilitate these processes with all the parties involved. Were you talking environmental issues? Could you expand on that — and maybe a suggestion?

M. Mehr: I think it's a really sensitive area. I've heard from people in the industry that one of the major stumbling blocks is in the interaction with first nations. I do think that there needs to be a clearer framework so that businesses that go into those consultations…. They're very important. I don't mean to diminish their importance at all, but I think there needs to be a better understanding of the roles of the parties and a bit of a framework.

It seems to me that it's on a project-by-project basis. I think greater certainty in business is absolutely appropriate. Just facilitating how these parties are going to interact, encouraging them to interact and getting through that process, I think, are absolutely imperative.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Thanks, Mike, for your presentation and taking time from your busy day to come down here this morning.

I know we talked about some of the points you made when I dropped by your office. You seem to have fleshed them out on the HST. I know we were talking more generally then, and you were waiting to hear some more information. So thanks for those recommendations. They're very specific, which is really helpful as far as the committee's work goes.

Just a quick question for you along the same lines as the previous one. We have heard from different groups, such as the Association for Mineral Explorations B.C.,
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around the development of mines and how issues around first nations are probably the key, they say. It's good to hear that you reiterate that.

Would you feel, then, it would be more prudent…? You mentioned perhaps not having the staff or the expertise within government. Would you think it'd be more prudent, then, to put more resources towards those line ministries that deal with first nations consultation, for instance, in order for us to see the benefits of Highway 37 come through more quickly?

M. Mehr: I would have to agree with that. With the number of people that I've spoken to, it is the main issue that's raised — getting through that process. When you look at the magnitude of a mine and its impact on our economy, it could be impacting us a year and a half from now, even less, in a really positive way. For the dollars spent by the province, looking at the rate of return from tax dollars on a mining operation, I think it's a pretty easy return-on-investment calculation.

B. Ralston: In 2001 the government, when it came to power, abolished the PST on machinery and equipment. You'd probably be familiar with that. What was the impact on your mining clients of that tax change? The overall calculation was about a $110 million tax expenditure by the provincial government at the time. I'd be interested specifically in the impact on mining.

M. Mehr: Yeah, I saw the impact of that more within the forestry sector. It did seem to encourage a fair amount of investment in equipment for the forestry sector. My mining clients are mostly in the drilling business, and I haven't necessarily seen that move having impacted them significantly.

There's been a lot of development in that business, that field, recently. I really think that we would have seen that development one way or the other, just because clients of mine run very strong businesses. I think they would have been able to move forward with their work one way or the other.

[0920]

I don't work with actual mines, so I hesitate to answer with respect to the impact, specifically, on mines.

B. Ralston: You mentioned Taseko and the Prosperity mine. Given what you've said about the exploration and drilling side, I take it that this calculation is on input credits for bringing the mine into production, and that is somewhere down the road. I don't think we've had a new metal mine in British Columbia since 1996.

M. Mehr: Yeah, there's one that I think we invested in — Roca, a molybdenum mine down near Nelson, I think it is. I was quite pleased to see that occur. I'll just leave it at that.

J. Les (Chair): Okay, I think we've run out of time, Michael. Thank you for coming this morning and presenting to us. You're a repeat customer. We always appreciate those.

M. Mehr: My pleasure.

J. Les (Chair): Our next presenter this morning is Mike Weeber.

M. Weeber: Hi there. Welcome to the Great White North, soon to be whiter. My name is Mike, as you can see by my name tag. I'm a councillor for the district of New Hazelton. I've been on council for about seven years now.

I don't know if everyone knows where Hazelton is — probably. It's just 68 kilometres that way. It's got a beautiful mountain sitting right above it. I've lived there for most of my life — beautiful place. There are about 700 people there. It seems to be catering to more of a retirement community at this point — not a lot of heavy industry.

I really like it there. We've got a lot of beautiful views. We've got the suspension bridge. We've got the fishing. Our fall is just a beautiful season. Every time here you can look at that mountain, and it's just beautiful. We've got a great sense of community spirit in our community. Everyone knows, to see each other there, and for the most part, we have respect for one another, which is important. It's a small-town and community mentality.

I'm here, and I send regrets from the mayor because he's presently unavailable to come in and talk.

What I'd like to do right now is thank the provincial government for its support in our water distribution grant, which we just received. We had one-third funding — $285,000 — which was essential to our completing the project. What this is going to do is improve our drinking water for residents and the neighbouring first nations village of Hagwilget. It's going to improve fire flows to the area of our town, including an elementary school.

I want to particularly thank the Minister of Community and Rural Development and his staff — Minister Bill Bennett — and the Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure and her staff — Minister Shirley Bond. She actually was up recently and met with our staff, and it was really nice to see her. You guys are all welcome to show up in Hazelton. We'll treat you really nice.

Like I said, we have an aging population in Hazelton. Although the season is quite nice in the summertime, there's a relatively long winter — cold climate. I think we're sort of at the stage where we like to encourage fitness, and we've just opened a fitness centre in our area. It's an old curling rink that we've been doing some renovating to and adding some fitness equipment.

[0925]

We're trying to put about five kilometres of trails in our community. This would be sort of old roads and
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trails that have been used pretty much since Hazelton began. We're applying for grants, and we'd like to kind of brand the Hazeltons as the hiking capital of the world — the highest part of Highway 16 as well.

We welcome any program to develop our recreational facilities, especially for small communities. We don't always have a lot of additional funds for that, with our tax base.

Another thing that we acknowledge the importance of is the small community grant that was doubled in 2006. It allows New Hazelton to offer many programs to its residents, and it improves the quality of life for our residents, on top of all this beauty, fresh air and fresh water that we have.

I want to thank you guys for coming up here and lending an ear to what we have to say. It's important that we work together as leaders to improve these smaller communities, and whatever help you can give us…. We are definitely a community that's open for business.

We've actually just taken on a new member to our staff. His name is Donny van Dyk. Do you know him, anybody?

J. Les (Chair): I've heard of him.

M. Weeber: Yeah, and he's very eager to help us with applying for grants and working with you individuals. That's about it in a nutshell.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you very much, Mike. Questions from anyone?

D. McRae: It sounds like a pretty place. I think I've been through New Hazelton once on a long drive when I was in university.

What is the biggest challenge you see facing your community? Obviously, you have an aging population, but if you had to just encapsulate it in a short version, what's the biggest challenge facing your community?

M. Weeber: Well, I think the biggest challenge is that we don't have a lot of industry in Hazelton. We've got an older fibre base — a lot of old, rotten hemlock. Eventually, there is new growth. There are trees that are being replanted. I don't know if my generation will get much out of it, but definitely down the road we're going to capitalize on that, I'm sure.

We do get a lot of money from the federal government for the first nations around here, and I think that sort of helps our community quite a bit — our stores, our businesses, that kind of thing.

I think probably one of our biggest challenges is not enough industry, so anything that you people could do to encourage or promote industry. Like I said, we're willing to help in any way, shape or form. We do consider environmental factors on everything, just like Mike said — our Mike, the last guy.

J. Les (Chair): The other Mike.

M. Weeber: Yeah.

M. Mungall: Thanks very much for your presentation. The way you talk about your community is very similar to the way I talk about my community, Nelson.

You brought up the programs to further develop recreational opportunities and become the hiking capital of B.C. or maybe beyond B.C. as well.

That made me think — when you talk about industry — of the tourism industry. Are you looking at your potential at capitalizing on your resources, not necessarily resource extraction but through tourism and seeing a need to develop that tourism industry in your area?

M. Weeber: Yeah, that's a good question. Definitely, we are always considering that. I think there is an element of a lack of knowledge developmentally maybe on our council. We have been working on that. That said, there is a lot of tourism in our area — for instance, our Hagwilget Bridge. That draws in huge numbers of people every year at the 'Ksan Village.

[0930]

The fishing is just excellent in our area. Anyone can go in there at a certain time of year and pull out 15 coho or, at a certain point, the steelhead. You see a lot of steelhead at this time of year running up the river, and people in hip waders. I wonder if they're not too cold, myself.

Moose hunting. There are lots of moose running around, actually, in our municipality. It's kind of like that song that you hear: "Land of the silver birch, home of the beaver." The mighty moose — yeah, he was up on top of our hill there, right beside the lake a couple of nights ago, and I was there.

Definitely, we will be working on tourism in our future. The trail project will, I think, enhance that. Recently we put in a little over $200,000 skateboard park in our community. I think we kind of believe in a little bit of balance, trying to make it more comfortable for people in our community as well as drawing other people that are interested in that sport to our community. It's one of the best in northern B.C., actually.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Thanks, Mike, for coming in and giving a presentation. How are the roads this morning? Black ice or…?

M. Weeber: No, they're pretty good, actually. But definitely, a guy has to take a little more caution this time of year.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): I just had a quick question for you. Mike was on New Hazelton council, and I was on the village of Hazelton council. Despite being small towns only eight kilometres from each other,
[ Page 166 ]
we managed to work really well together, and a trail project resulted from Hazelton to New Hazelton that is well used. I appreciate your comments around recreation infrastructure.

I had another question, though. I know that the logging industry is something that runs in your family. Specifically, is there anything that you see that would help stimulate that industry in our area, especially around the bioenergy cogeneration facility that is being proposed, for instance, in the Suskwa? Are there any recommendations you can give to us to try to speed those processes along?

M. Weeber: That's a good question, actually. That spurred another kind of angle to our community too, but I'm going to touch on yours first.

I definitely believe that the bioenergy would be an asset to our community. It would employ people, and that's what we need. There are a lot of people that are unemployed, and jobs give people hope. They feed families. Definitely, if you guys could help out in any shape or form with that, we'd like to see that.

Like I said, as you were talking, I thought about the local sawmills that are going in Hazelton — just the small, little companies. They've sort of, in recent years, gained a little bit more momentum, and it definitely is nice if we could possibly help out these smaller mills as well. I know that they do a good job. They work very hard. Any kind of boost that you could give them I'd appreciate, and I'm sure they would too.

J. Les (Chair): Very good. We're going to let you go, Mike. We're out of time. Thank you for coming. Appreciate you taking the extra time that people like you have to take to actually get here.

M. Weeber: Well, I think it was worth it.

J. Les (Chair): Our next presenter is Dana Gorbahn from High Road Services Society. Good morning.

D. Gorbahn: Good morning. How are you doing today?

I'm Dana Gorbahn from High Road Services Society. I'm the executive director. We work with adults with developmental disabilities here in the Smithers, Moricetown, Houston and Topley area.

I'd like to thank all of you for…. This is quite the process that you guys have taken on to go throughout the province, and I want to commend you and thank you for taking this on. Also, thank you for this opportunity for me to present to you.

High Road Services Society and some of the members presented to this committee back in October 2005 and also last year.

[0935]

A lot of what we've emphasized in our presentations is a hope that our provincial government recognizes our Bulkley Valley area and, more in particular, our community living services. We exist so that individuals with developmental disabilities can have the greatest quality of life possible and also to help our communities become stronger through our efforts.

I'd like to address a couple of areas that we've identified as being kind of significant for us. There are a lot of areas that we focus on, but these are some of the more pressing issues that I feel need to be addressed.

The first one is the wait-list that CLBC has addressed over this past year. I've got to say that the Crown corporation, Community Living B.C., has done a good job in addressing that. They set aside a significant amount of dollars to be able to provide some support for those people who have no support whatsoever. That was good, but it wasn't enough.

The people that received the support were people that were already on the waiting list, but there are many, many people within this valley that were not on that waiting list. We feel that still needs to be addressed — those people who have no services whatsoever. We have identified a lot of people, so further funding for advocacy purposes would help them access the programs that are available.

Another problem is our residential care. In the Bulkley Valley there is only one adult residential home. This home was created back in 1990, and that was almost 20 years ago. We have an aging population, as you're quite aware, and there are a lot of adults still living with their parents. We hear from many of these parents that they need a home — not just one. They need at least two homes that would be able to provide the necessary support for their individual needs.

Community Living B.C. currently has an informal policy. I'm not going to say it's a policy, but we do hear this as an informal type of policy — a trend towards home-sharing or semi-independent living for adults with residential needs. They say that they'll give residential support to anybody as long as it meets those options, but not a residential home.

There are many individuals who could be well served in these types of situations — home-sharing or semi-independent living. But there is no question that these programs are not for everyone. The population that we care for are arguably the most vulnerable people in society. They are preyed upon by others because of their incapacity to communicate and advocate on their own.

We have many documented circumstances of this in our community, yet I am confident that this is only the tip of the iceberg of these despicable acts by predators towards these vulnerable individuals.

I know that employees of CLBC are making every effort to ensure that the population we serve are safe from abuse, but it is a travesty that the residential trends of
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service appear to be strictly based upon how much it costs. Funding is needed to ensure proper residential supports are given.

Another area which I wish you to consider is the inevitable situation that adults with developmental disabilities find themselves in. Are you aware of how much they receive through income assistance per month and, of that, how much is designated for rent? It's $906.42 and, of that, $375 for rent. In the world we live today, can you imagine finding appropriate housing for this amount?

Unfortunately, we are finding that the individuals that we serve supplement their rent with their grocery budget. What a cruel decision this is: do I eat properly, or do I have a roof over my head? There need to be policies made to give incentives to landlords who provide affordable, safe housing.

In our 2008 strategic planning for our society, we recognized this dilemma. Some of the members of our society applied and were successful for a grant to open up a low-cost-food grocery store for low-income individuals and families. We at High Road Services Society act as a host agency to help with the development and application of this grant.

[0940]

Within this past year this project has grown. We have 565 members, which accounts for approximately 1,700 low-income people with or without disabilities. The members include not only individuals and families but churches, social services agencies, aboriginal groups and school programs. They are all able to purchase affordable groceries.

Unfortunately, this one-year grant is at its end at the end of this month, and we have not yet built this social enterprising business to be self-sustaining. We need CLBC; the Ministry of Housing and Social Development, the Ministry of Children and Family Development to cooperate together to fund and support these types of programs — I'm not saying just for that program but for these types of programs — to help social enterprises succeed.

It is not just an investment in the lives today but can be an investment for years to come. Social enterprises are social mission–driven organizations which trade in goods and services for a social purpose. Their aim is to accomplish targets that are social, environmental and financial. Social enterprises are profit-making businesses set up to tackle social and environmental needs.

I believe that the greater the opportunities that are given to agencies to have effective social enterprises, the less reliant upon government they'll become. Government financial policy should give thought to some incentives to private businesses to help social services agencies in their social enterprises, which strengthen the social fabric of communities.

Aggressive incentives will help social enterprises succeed in funding commitments to organizations that will be there until the enterprises are self-sustaining. Statistically, over 70 percent of businesses fail within five years. If we can not only receive enough funding for startup but get successful businesses involved in helping and developing sound, written, planned expertise in products being sold, and mentoring or coaching through incentives from our government, I believe these social enterprises will take off and will reduce the provincial budget for the social services sector.

My last area is with the restructuring of CLBC. We are concerned about the planning and the continuity of supports for children and youth with developmental disabilities. We have experienced children that have received a level of support until they are 19, and then when it becomes their 19th birthday, they are cut off of supports that they have had in the past. Nothing has changed except that the sun went down one night and rose again the next day. Do they no longer need those supports just because it's their birthday? Think about it.

MCFD will be providing services for children and youth with developmental disabilities up until 19. CLBC will take over in the adult years. It is vitally important that these two organizations work closely together for planning and transition. One hand needs to know what the other hand is doing.

In conclusion, I would again like to thank you for your time and consideration. A few weeks ago in the budget speech the only reference to social services was around income assistance. Now, I know that government sees us as more than that, but that was the only acknowledgment that we got.

Social services do not produce wealth like the business sector does, but they do produce conditions that allow businesses to thrive in a stable society. Social services agencies create a social capital, a term the World Bank describes as "not just the sum of the institutions which underpin a society; it is the glue that holds them together."

I hope that you bring a greater voice, a voice that gives respect and value to the work that social services agencies provide in our communities and those that we serve. Lives do depend upon what we do.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you, Dana.

M. Mungall: Thanks very much, Dana. This morning I was on the radio already, because it's the provincial Homelessness Action Week. You touched on a really important issue around that, and I wanted to expand on it a bit more, and that's the poverty and safe, affordable housing. Your recommendation is to give incentives to landlords who provide affordable, safe housing.

What about the need for the provincial government to start developing more affordable housing units for people with developmental disabilities?

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D. Gorbahn: Well, absolutely. I mean, there's no question that the non-profit sector, in putting together that housing, is important, but I also think that we need to get the private sector involved in that too.

I was on the Smithers Housing Task Force, and there hasn't been any development in the private sector for low-income housing or affordable housing for this area, I believe, in the past 15 to 20 years. The only development is through non-profit agencies and that are driven by government.

Again, I think that would be great if government was able to do that, but you know economics. If the private sector also got involved in that, I think we would be able to have more development and then have less burden upon the taxpayer.

J. van Dongen: Thanks, Dana, for your presentation. You talk about vulnerable adults with disabilities, and you talked about the trend towards home-sharing and semi-independent living. I presume that those models involve no independent supervision. Are you saying that where people have vulnerabilities, the kind of despicable acts you talk about are a reflection of the type of housing? Or do they need mentoring, or do they need support throughout their 24 hours, daily?

D. Gorbahn: I think that it's a combination of both. I think that some individuals, if they've got some level of ability to be able to be on their own…. But when they have their supports and the supports are gone, then these predators know exactly when…. And it is happening all the time. We have several documented cases of this where the staff that are supporting them are there anywhere from two to ten hours, depending upon their needs. But then when they're gone, these predators come in and literally steal their food.

J. van Dongen: Just so I understand it right, then, the issue is supervision, and these particular models don't involve supervision.

D. Gorbahn: That's right. It does provide some supervision, but also, in the environment that they're in, being able to have those safeguards in place where those predators aren't able to access them.

J. van Dongen: So the issue is appropriate assessment to ensure who might be eligible for these.

D. Gorbahn: Yes.

J. van Dongen: Just one other quick question. When you talk about the grant for the low-cost grocery store, what was that grant? How much was the grant?

D. Gorbahn: It was $70,000 for one year.

J. van Dongen: For one year. Okay.

J. Thornthwaite: Thank you for your presentation. Can you just give me an example of what you would recommend would be the incentive to private business or private businesses that would help support social services agencies?

D. Gorbahn: I don't know, actually. I don't know how tax incentives can be done. If a business is able to share its resources, that could be some sort of credit, kind of a business expense for them. I don't know exactly how those incentives might look. If businesses see that there is a benefit for themselves — not only for their community but for their businesses — I think that it would speed up the process and make it more likely.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Thanks, Dana, for making time in your schedule to come in and talk to us. I know that some of the points you've raised here we talked about when you showed me around your organization and had a chance to chat.

I appreciate your comments around the advocacy point, because many times we become focused on actual delivery of services on the ground, and we forget that there's also an important role for the step in between there, whether it's a coordination role or the advocacy role. So point well taken.

The other question I had for you is more specific. It's the Innovation Foods that we're talking about in that one example — correct?

D. Gorbahn: Yes.

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D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): I believe there are opportunities there in the social enterprise so that…. Oftentimes people see the services you describe as resource-intensive — right? If you could just explain the model a bit more.

I know with Innovation Foods they were even working with a local greenhouse operator to grow food and employ some of the people that the food was meant to go to, as workers in the greenhouses and how…. Is that the example of a kind of a private business that could assist in getting these social enterprises on their feet?

D. Gorbahn: Well, that's where this partnership with a nursery is helping the business there. The nursery provides some business on their part but also helps that social enterprise expand. The social enterprise is what I think is really key for a lot of our social services agencies in being able to generate some revenue so that they are not reliant upon government funding, so that we're not concerned about any cutbacks that might happen, so that we can continue providing the services that we're providing.
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Now, in the situation with our Innovation Foods — well received in the community, but again, it's not generating enough income for it to be self-sustaining. But the greenhouse is able to partner with us in going after grants because we're a non-profit organization. So we've got some partnerships happening there — not that we've been successful in those grants yet. But we're trying to partner with other businesses to make things work.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you very much, Dana. Again, you're one of those repeat customers. We appreciate that.

The next presenter this morning is Miriam Colvin.

M. Colvin: Good morning. Hi.

J. Les (Chair): And we are joined by MLA Norm Letnick. Better late than never.

M. Colvin: I've never done this before, so do I just…?

J. Les (Chair): Just launch right out, and welcome here.

M. Colvin: I'll just begin by saying thank you for coming here and for giving me an opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Miriam Colvin. I don't have any handouts for you. I would like to speak with you about the arts.

I am a professional dance artist, and I'm one of the few practising professional dance artists who are still creating work in the northern communities. There are several wonderful dance professionals here who are teaching within the studios, but very few of us are actually doing the art in the same way that many artists are in the larger centres such as Vancouver.

I thought that I would use your time today to talk a little bit about how the arts are so interwoven into the community here in Smithers and how we are so connected with what's happening down in the city centres. I'll try to be clear, but I'm very nervous. I'm a dance artist, so speaking is not my preferred form of communication. I'm going to try to focus, too, on just me, using myself as an example of an independent artist and, hopefully, to allow myself to be an analogy for many of the artists out there.

I'm involved in many communities within my community, both here in Smithers and in Vancouver, Ottawa and in the United States. All of my activities create revenue within the communities that I exist in and create jobs within those communities.

I live in a town with an alpine theme. The arts are integrated in everything we do in Smithers. The aesthetic of our houses is important to us, storytelling with our elders, the fall fair. The website of Smithers talks about…. The first sentence is: "From waterfalls to concert halls, our visitors quickly find out what makes this place so special."

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We stand on the arts. In the churches we don't just sing the hymns, but people make extravagant theatre and musical productions around this time of year. Our children are as likely to play the fiddle as snowboard here. I think that happens in other communities, as well, in British Columbia.

I live here because I can practise my art here, even in this remote place. I work with peers. I continue my training in Vancouver, and I choose Smithers because I see how I can build this town. As an individual, my impact here is great.

As a teacher, I teach adults and youth modern dance. I work with movement that brings self-expression more than technique. I have my own small business called Myriad Dance Projects. I also partner with the town of Smithers, which meets their requirements of having affordable recreation and having adults more active.

I rent a building. I'm paying money into the local infrastructure. I have a steady number of students. It's small but steady. I've had no decrease lately. What I bring in my classes, even with the youth, is learning, respect, self-assurance and self-expression. I have one student who drives all the way from Hazelton, which is 45 minutes away, for a dance class — 45 minutes here and 45 minutes back. When she comes, she brings her father, who hangs out in the bar and spends his money here.

I am a dance-maker. I apply for grants through the B.C. Arts Council and the Canada Arts Council. My work involves community, and that's part of the other reason why it works for me to work here. I received a travel grant from the Canada Arts Council and used that to bring two youth to Washington, D.C., to be part of an international forum on belonging and youth voice through the arts. We flew Hawkair.

B.C. Arts Council. We just got an arts-based community development grant with the Bulkley Valley Arts Council. I am using that as an opportunity to engage in dialogue across circles of community and across mediums. Through that grant, I am employing seven local artists and three other people, which include babysitters, transportation and food. We're renting the local theatre, which is also connected to the local high school.

I am working through ArtStarts to go into an elementary school starting next week, working with 16 grade 3-4s. Again, even though I got that grant to work with one teacher, we're hiring three other artists in the community to make that grant happen.

I am a presenter. I am an outreach worker with an organization called Made in B.C. — Dance on Tour. Maybe you've heard of it. It's based out of Vancouver. What they do is assist B.C. artists to tour their work throughout
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more remote communities. For me, what that means is that I don't have to travel all the way to Vancouver to see work that inspires my work — I'm going to talk about that a bit more, about how this is all interconnected for me — but these companies are coming to my town. It's work that is now. It's not just traditional ballet, which I love, but for me, this is bringing artists who are my peers in my field, and they're teaching workshops.

The other thing that we're doing is outreach. My job as an outreach worker is to build audiences for the youths' performances. I see that as building audience for all the performances we're doing in every form of art that's going on in our town.

I've just been offered a job, which I'm not sure I'm going to take, with our community services organization, which just got a grant as a crime prevention grant to work with FASD youth at risk. The reason why they got that grant is that they are integrating the arts as a way to get these kids starting to be more active and functional people.

I also serve on our local arts council, the concert association. I'm an art director at the local art gallery. I'm not a visual artist, but again, in a small town there are these opportunities to get involved with our passions. I recently attended the North West Arts Summit.

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So how is this sustainable? Who is this woman, doing all these different things? It really comes down to creating balance. I think that's what we're probably talking about in all the communities you're going to. What is sustainable with our budget, with what we want B.C. to be?

For me, I need to go to Vancouver, because that's where I get to see things that really inspire me. I go to the Scotiabank Dance Centre, and I take classes. I see work. But then here, in the northwest….

The arts summit was here, and I sat next to a woman from Hazelton — I happened to be in our local art gallery — and she's a beautiful first nations artist. I invite her to submit her work, to have a show at our gallery. She is interested in that, and that's going to happen. Those small connections are how it's sustainable — and networking with other northern presenters.

I guess what I'm coming around to is that there's an ecosystem of the arts in British Columbia, which is why I live here. The current budget cuts and changing of funding systems with the B.C. Arts Council and the gaming grants affect me individually. You've probably heard from big organizations in Vancouver. Well, those organizations having trouble affects me here in the north, and I think that I affect my entire town.

If larger organizations, dance companies, are folding, they're not renting space at the Scotiabank Dance Centre or all the other rehearsal places. Those facilities are then threatened. If they're not getting the funding they need, they're not making new work. And if they are making new work, they're certainly not touring it to the north. Then I'm not bringing that work here to my community, and I'm not getting my batteries recharged by seeing it. So I'm forced to go somewhere else to do that, because I need that. I mean as professional development maybe, but certainly soul food.

Staff are being laid off in places where I take class, so now when I go to Vancouver, I go whenever I want and take the classes I need, and I bring that information back. So staff are being laid off. There are less classes available. More planning, more money on my part. It just is making it more and more difficult.

In terms of what happens here, I rent less, I create less, and I teach less. I have less to give.

I want to live here. I would like to live in this town, and I would like to be an artist. I'm an amenity migrant. Everybody talks about that — the young people moving here. In the last weeks, even, new people have moved here from Nelson, from Vancouver. They're designers, videographers, vocalists.

Again, in a small town if one person leaves, that changes the whole balance of everything. People who come here starting businesses need beautiful graphic design. Well, if that graphic designer isn't being challenged and interested in other artistic pursuits, they're not going to live here. And then one thing affects the next, and people come here with a judgment of: "Well, these things we're used to. The city centres aren't here. Why would I bring my business here?"

So we the people make up the north. We're the infrastructure of the north. I think Doug has referred to that. The arts are not an addendum to our lives. They're fully integrated into our lives. I feel strongly that what is proposed is not a debate. It's not saying: "We're going to cut a little bit." It's a decimation. And once organizations start to collapse, the rebuilding of those organizations takes so much more capital and so much more work. In the meantime we in the north are going to seriously suffer.

That's what I have to say. I guess I have to say: "Please invest in the arts." I'm sure you've gotten great statistics from people who are more organized than I about the payback in the investment in the arts. I think we control the deficit by making these good investments. I don't think the arts are where you want to cut.

I say: "Don't continue to reduce taxes. Spend those taxes in the places that are meaningful. Spend my taxes in the places that are meaningful to me." Education is a big thing. Culture. And I would really plead that you restore full funding to both the B.C. Arts Council and the gaming grants as sources of funding.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you, Miriam.

Any questions from anyone?

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J. Thornthwaite: Thank you very much for your presentation. It was very passionate, and you definitely got your point across. Thank you very much.

We have had quite a few presentations from arts groups, and I understand we're having more today as well. I really appreciate the way that you presented. It was great.

Just a question, though, and this is not pertaining specifically to your situation but in general for some of the other arts presenters that we've had and will have in the next little bit.

Given the fact that the provincial government — along with all other jurisdictions in the world, basically — has severely had their revenues cut with regards to resources, the pie is not as big as it used to be. That's a fact. Where or how would you suggest — without raising taxes, because we hear exactly the opposite from other groups — that any government would decide where they would have to reduce their expenses? Given the fact that it's a given that it has to be done, how would you suggest we go about doing that?

M. Colvin: Right. I was expecting that that question might be asked of me. I'll be honest. I'm not really prepared to answer it.

My understanding, though, is that the arts budget is 1⁄20 of 1 percent. The amount that you get back from what you put into the arts…. It's not worth taking away this small amount, and it is small. You should double what you're giving the arts.

I understand what you're asking me, and I don't have an answer. But this is not the solution. I will be happy to spend a little more time over the next days to think more about my answer, and I'd be happy to submit something in writing. But I'm not prepared to answer that today.

B. Routley: Good morning, Miriam. Well done. Very interesting and dramatic presentation.

As a grandfather with five wonderful grandchildren…. My oldest has autism, and I can tell you that I was probably the proudest in my life when he actually did his first play. There were teachers involved that I know who do the kind of work you do and were very influential in making those things happen. So you're certainly pushing on an open door with me as far as convincing the folks on this committee that the work you do is very worthwhile and has spinoff and employment generation — and not only that. Culturally and for the community we all benefit because of the kind of work that you do.

My question specifically is…. I think you made the argument that there are spinoff jobs connected to the work that you do. But what kind of cuts have been made in your area specifically? I hear that it's you directly being affected there. But how much money are we talking about in an area like the north?

M. Colvin: Again, I will have to get back to you, really, with the specifics on that question. There are two arts organizations, I think, that are speaking today as well, and I was kind of relying on them to answer more organization-wide questions like that.

I don't have a number yet, but what is already really clear is that the organizations that I rely on in the city are having staff cutbacks. So instead of giving you a number, I'm going to give a situation.

There's a studio called EDAM. Peter Bingham runs it. He teaches contact improvisation, and he also uses it as a theatre space. He has had to lay off a staff that he's had on board for 20 years. What that means for me is that I can't figure out when I can go into his studio. I'm going down to Vancouver on Thursday, and I'm unclear if I am able to engage with that organization.

Locally, this grant I just got for the arts-based community development…. It's $5,500 from the B.C. Arts Council. We have to match that, of course, so that's about an $11,000 project. That's nothing. That is so little money.

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What I'm doing with that money is I have invited people from the Local Vocals; the Community Kitchen, which is a literacy group; a knitters club; youth dancers; high school art students; professional artists at the local art gallery; the drama students at the local high school; and several other people that I've bumped into along the way.

Today after this meeting I'm going to the seniors lunch at Pioneer Place to invite 70 retired folks to join in. The impact of that — how that $11,000 is going to touch our community — is huge. I'm more prepared to speak about that today than what's not available.

J. Les (Chair): Okay. A final question from Michelle.

M. Mungall: More of a comment than a question. I just want to say thanks very much, Miriam, for coming forward. I think it's really important that this committee hear, from individuals such as yourself, how decisions at government level impact one individual and how that can impact an entire community. You're very active.

I didn't really have a question. It's more of a thanks for coming forward and sharing what was a very powerful and very detailed presentation.

M. Colvin: Thank you for the opportunity.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you very much, Miriam. For someone who is nervous, you did very well this morning.

Our next presenter is Ken Eng from the Bulkley Valley Concert Association.

K. Eng: Good morning, members of the select standing committee. I've been speaking at various times in my life, and I'm still kind of nervous. Please abide with me if I stutter at some point or forget what I'm saying.
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This presentation that I'm giving and that you have in front of you is just an overview of a lot of comments that I solicited from other arts groups in town. We got together and shared some ideas about our concerns about the arts and the role of arts in Smithers and other northwest communities. We plan to submit a larger complete presentation on line, so that will be forthcoming.

I'm the president of the Bulkley Valley Concert Association, which has been presenting musical events and supporting music and arts in the community for over 50 years. This is our 50th anniversary.

Also, in presenting this, I had meetings and consultations with other arts groups in town, including the Bulkley Valley Community Arts Council, which has been operating for 40 years; the Bulkley Valley Folk Music Society, which has been operating for 26 years; and the Bulkley Valley fiddlers, which has focused on fiddling and violin and other string instruments for 12 years.

I'd like to think that I'm unofficially representing other arts groups in the northwest that aren't here today and are unable to speak. I met many of my colleagues in the northwest recently at the arts summit that Miriam referred to, which was a tremendous event that allowed us as arts people to have a platform for dialogue, professional development and networking. It really showed, at that time, the number of people in the north that really have a passion and the scope of the arts in the northwest.

By the way, I'm an accountant by profession, so I have some understanding of the very difficult task that the Legislative Assembly has. I appreciate that the select standing committee is here today to solicit our input on trying to put some meaning behind the numbers that will be coming in the 2010 budget.

The arts summit was co-presented by the B.C. Touring Council and the 2010 Legacies Now organization. We in the arts community strongly supported the 2010 Legacies because of their mandate to create sustainable legacies that will benefit all British Columbians as a result of hosting next year's 2010 Olympics. One of those legacies is the arts. We feel that there is strong support by the Olympics and indirectly the government for the arts. In that meeting it came out that there is a long history of arts in the northwest, and there continues to be a lot of support and enthusiasm for the arts.

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Specifically, our organizations are non-profit and one charitable organization — that being the Bulkley Valley Community Arts Council. We exist to promote, broaden and create opportunities for the residents of our communities to experience the arts both as participants and as audiences. To achieve these purposes we have been or are currently supported by government funding in some way. The funding includes direct grants from municipal, regional, provincial and federal governments or flow-through grants from other non-profits, such as the B.C. Arts Council or the B.C. Touring Council.

Another example at a local level is at the Bulkley Valley Community Arts Council. They act as an umbrella organization that promotes and supports other arts groups by providing seed money for groups that want to have a certain interest. They purchase capital items, which other groups can use, and they provide low-cost liability insurance for member groups.

The Bulkley Valley Community Arts Council receives almost all of its funding from the B.C. Arts Council and the town of Smithers. So they can't exist without the funding, and other groups can't exist or would be severely hampered if they didn't get the funding from the Arts Council.

Some themes. I'm just going to go on a macro level. I appreciated Miriam's passion and her presentation at the micro level. I've got more of a higher level in terms of the arts groups, and there's a theme of interconnectedness. I think that's what is running through as you're hearing a lot of presentations on all aspects of our lives here and across the province. That's for us as arts groups, for individuals, other community groups, business, government, religious groups, social groups. We're all interconnected. There's no way to just take something out and feel that things will go on the way they were or slightly different.

There are other main themes in our groups that came across as we started to discuss what we try to do and how we serve our communities in what we present. There's accessibility. We in the north are remote communities. A lot of our residents don't have the opportunity to see a lot of the presenters and performers that we are able to bring in.

We provide affordable events. We try to keep the cost down, because a lot of people in the north don't have a lot of money for discretionary entertainment. And we make programs accessible to people that can't afford it — for example, funding from the Bulkley Valley Arts Council. They provide funding through various other community groups for people that can't afford to attend a certain event or a workshop or education opportunities due to economic circumstance. We can try to provide the funding for them so that they can attend these events.

A big sense of community. We are very diverse and widespread in the north, and community within and across the north is facilitated by the arts. It allows us to bridge people of different ages, different ethnicities, economic background, organizations and culture. At a musical festival, it brings together people of all these different aspects.

Arts are a chance to celebrate. It allows us to participate, brings people together and gives us a sense of being able to share experiences. This is through regular music events that each community puts on, presentations, performances by
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different groups. I think Miriam touched on a lot of it from her aspect as a performer — the aspect of it as an economic generator for a lot of businesses through major events. It also allows us to develop aspiring artists, who may not have the opportunity, through bursaries that we provide to students that want to further their education in the arts.

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The example I give is our local Midsummer Festival, which is around June. Several thousand people come for the weekend, which provides a lot of opportunity for community, celebration, personal opportunity and economic opportunity for the businesses of Smithers.

In the north there are also festivals in Kispiox, Haida Gwaii, Prince Rupert, Terrace. I apologize. I forget if there are others that I haven't mentioned.

Tied in — termed "interconnectedness…." The president of the folk music society mentioned that they would not be able to present the Midsummer Festival if the arts council was not able to provide the low-cost insurance coverage that they can.

In terms of the overall aspect of the gestalt concept is that our northwest communities are greater as a whole than the sum of the parts in our communities. The role and impact of the arts in the communities is much greater than just the dollars that are spent on the arts.

As an accountant and the whole public, we're aware of the difficult economic climate that we're in and that the B.C. Legislative Assembly has a very difficult task in managing the province in this climate.

Our communities definitely need the infrastructure that our governments create and support, such as health care, education, roads, industry, business. But we also need the cultural events and experiences in our lives that stir our emotions, nourish our soul, broaden our minds and define us as a society, especially in this difficult economic time.

On behalf of the groups I represent and the residents of the northwest that participate in and enjoy the arts, I ask that this select standing committee, in its recommendation to the Legislative Assembly, maintain and ensure the funding for the arts in the 2010 budget.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you, Ken.

First question to Norm.

N. Letnick: Thank you, Ken, for the presentation. We appreciate you coming out to do that today.

In your written submission that you're going to present in more detail, could you use some numbers to identify how much you were receiving before, how much you expect to get now, and the economic impact that that will have on the community here in Smithers?

K. Eng: Sure, I plan to. I have some numbers. For example, in addition to the arts council and the amount of funding you get, the fiddlers group…. I don't have their exact dollars, but they receive 75 percent of their funding from various grants and government. So yeah, definitely we'll put numbers in.

N. Letnick: That would be great, and feel comfortable putting in the multiplier effect. You know what I mean by that. I don't have to explain it to you.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Thanks, Ken, for coming in. Again, another very informative presentation.

The question I have for you is your double role between being a chartered accountant and a very big supporter of and contributor to the arts community. It builds upon what Miriam had to say as well. It seems that we often get fixated on the economic returns of arts and cultural activities, which I think both of you have done a great job of describing and outlining the benefits.

I'm wondering if you could comment and whether you've come across what I would term the quality-of-life aspects…. I know studies have shown that innovative and creative people are attracted to small communities such as Smithers and others in the north by not simply the bottom-line aspect, as in personal taxation, but the quality of life — the arts and culture and the opportunities that Miriam and you described that are available.

If there's anything you could put in your report around studies you've come across that show that as well…. Maybe you'd like to comment right now on the kind of people that we need in the north — the innovative and creative people, like Miriam has described herself as. She's a great example about the quality of life that the arts creates to attract those kinds of people.

K. Eng: Sure. It's definitely evident in Smithers. Miriam is one part of our community, one member of the…. It's a very diverse musical, dance, visual artists, all others…. I definitely will put in some other things.

Just addressing your question in a different way.... In preparing for this, I was looking through a book I have, which is actually a business management book for business managers called The Priority Manager, and one aspect it talked about was the balancing act in a person's life. You can't be focusing on just one aspect of your life. Often, for a lot of us, it's work.

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In this book they say six. Often other diagrams have others, but there is your work, learning, your physical aspect, social, family and spiritual. I think the arts, for all of us, in one way or another, impact one or more of those six aspects of our lives.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you very much again. We'll look forward to getting that additional information from you.

The next presenter is Linda Stringfellow from the Smithers Gallery Association. She's also got with her Mairead Sikkes. We're ready to go whenever you are.
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L. Stringfellow: Good morning. I would like to introduce myself — Linda Stringfellow. I'm here as a director with the Smithers Gallery Association. With me is Mairead Sikkes, who is also a director of that association. I would just let you know, too, that we are both visual artists. Of course, thank you for taking the time to hear us today and travelling all over this beautiful province.

Not unlike Ken and Miriam, we will probably be saying a lot of the same things, but we hope to be a little bit more in depth with what we have to say.

The Smithers Art Gallery is a hugely important part of the arts and culture community in the Bulkley Valley. The Bulkley Valley has a well-known reputation as a northern hub for the arts. The Bulkley Valley is unique in that it provides a variety of activities — recreational, artistic and cultural — to enhance the quality of life. Thus, Smithers attracts numerous people who might not be so interested in living in northern locations.

As well, the community attracts artists in a variety of mediums, as they are a climate of support for these creative individuals. Families have a choice here of enrolling their children in many different sports, music and dance, as well as seasonal art activities.

One of the many reasons why people come to live in this community is the variety of choice. The Bulkley Valley offers a well-rounded and healthy lifestyle, making it an attractive place to settle. Therefore, the arts have a definite economic impact on our town.

In gardening, culture is the medium in which plants grow and thrive. In our society, culture and the arts help people to grow in many ways. Given a means of expression, human beings are happier and healthier. It is a well-known fact that children who have become passionate about music and art learn self-discipline and concentration and develop better work habits — all desirable traits.

In a three-year study conducted by Queen's University, 90 percent of parents reported that arts motivated their children to learn. Teachers, parents and administrators talked about how the arts motivated children, referring to their emotional, cognitive, physical and social benefits.

In order to understand the significance of the gallery to this community, a little history is in order. The Smithers Art Gallery began in the fall of 1971. It was founded by a group of individuals whose mandate was to provide the citizens of Smithers in the Bulkley Valley art opportunities through a variety of local and regional art shows, workshops and a place to practise art through drop-in classes. The mandate has not changed that much in the past 38 years, other than the addition of our mandate to bring art education to the community and to be a supportive venue for artists.

Over this time period the gallery has hosted approximately 12 shows per year — 38 years times 12 shows equals 456 exhibitions; offered regular art classes for all ages and spring and summer art camps for children; exhibited travelling works from across Canada; and hosted an artisans Christmas venue.

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For the most part, the art gallery was run by dedicated volunteers, even when, with enough fundraising, a part-time manager would be hired for a very minimal wage and limited hours.

M. Sikkes: The gallery has received funding from our local arts council, and the town of Smithers has awarded us an annual grant. Because of cost-cutting by the town, also, we're wondering if our grant from them may be lowered this year too. We use the small amount of funds we receive to keep the gallery open a total of 20 hours a week. Expenses include payment for rent, a part-time wage to our underpaid managers and bills such as telephone and exhibition advertisements.

A condition of the town grant is that we are obligated to provide grant-matching revenue. This is generated by fundraising, membership fees, small admission donations, as well as a percentage of art sales.

We have a very hard-working, cohesive board and volunteers whom we are constantly asking for support and help. As you probably realize, we do not want to keep asking too much of our volunteers as that often leads to burnout.

In the past few years, with the decline of volunteer support and inconstancy of daily operations, the gallery board has wanted to progress into becoming a stable gallery with a paid manager who would provide continuity and efficiency. We want to outreach, provide more community art education and increase our hours of being open to the public.

We had started down the path of searching out what it is that we need to do in order to make this a reality, the reality being that we need to apply for certain project grants. Once successful with these grants, we would be eligible to apply for operations funding.

These cuts that are being delivered by the government have caught us in the middle of a long and onerous transition. Just as we are about to apply for operating funding with B.C. Gaming, there's no funding to apply for. We spent the last three years as volunteers working tirelessly to bring our gallery to the next level, and with the help of an Arts-POD retreat and visioning and a great manager, we felt we were coming close to our dream.

Now we could be on the brink of closing our doors and are so disappointed in this government, which made a commitment to fund arts, culture and sports with proceeds from the gaming industry.

L. Stringfellow: The Smithers Art Gallery receives about 20 arts submissions each year. The majority of our exhibitions are showing local and regional talent. We select a cross-section of work. Some may be young, emerging artists. Some are local and regional artists who
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are professionals, such as the Leah Pipe show that's in the gallery today.

As this is the only venue for artists to sell their work between Terrace and Prince George, we feel our role in supporting our artists to be very important. The gallery has an average of 2,000 visits a year. Many of these are local people. However, we have numerous visitors from all corners of the world. Not having the funds to keep the door open would be a detriment to the artists that the gallery serves as well as a disservice to the public who support us.

Without these funds and with possible downsizing of our town of Smithers grant, we face a possibility of reducing the hours of our manager, who would most likely not be able to stay on, thereby cutting back on the expertise needed to do other grant-writing.

This would curtail art outreach into the community, such as art camp in the spring and summer holidays. Bookkeeping and all the work associated with putting on shows would be restricted. Fewer artists would be able to show their work. Much more work for board members, all volunteers, who may be more likely to burn out.

M. Sikkes: We solicited some comments and opinions from local artists who show their work at the gallery and who had some concerns. One local artist said that without the gallery, it would be like ripping the soul out of the community. Another said — this is Curtis Cunningham — that we would lose the place where a strong sense of community is built. He also said that it would remove one of the means by which he is trying to support his family. Exhibiting art and selling photo cards are two of those ways.

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I have a couple of other comments, one from a teacher who is also closely connected with our gallery: "As an educator who strives to provide a rich, creative environment for my students who are the rising talent of our future in many sectors of society, we rely upon the support of many sources, especially the government. We expect the ruling government to provide financial assistance and infrastructure to create strong cultural communities." That from Pashan Bassett, who's here today. Some of her comments overlap what we have already said, so we just chose this section.

All too often the provincial government views the north as the source of resources and revenues but not necessarily creative talent. In fact, unique places like Smithers are oases of artistic inspiration. Art is the juice that keeps us in the north vital. In short, to cut the creative soul out of a vibrant community to cover a burdening provincial debt generated by the Olympics, for which we receive no benefit, only serves to promote local resentment that we have to pay for it with diminishing health care and artistic opportunities.

For these reasons, we ask the province to continue its support so that the whole of British Columbia can be recognized as the creative gem of the west coast — a place where talent attracts talent; a place of choice, not necessity. By the government's own study on socioeconomic impacts of arts and culture, the return of public investment in the arts in the form of tax revenues is $1.36 for every dollar invested.

The current cuts have given the cultural sector no time to adjust to the changes in funding. They have created instability and uncertainty in the sector. If the current plans for drastically larger future cuts remain, they will essentially crush the spirit of many community-based arts and culture organizations.

In the north we rely, even more than in urban areas, on arts and culture funding for making our lives more meaningful. Tough economic times are the times when we should be supporting communities and investing wisely. In the U.S. this is exactly what President Obama is including as part of his economic stimulus package in an effort to promote recovery and competitiveness in the unfolding future.

No other province in Canada has reduced support for the arts sector at this time of economic uncertainty. In fact, Ontario, Alberta, Quebec and the federal government have increased their investments.

We want the government to recognize that arts and culture is an asset to be valued, providing not only monetarily to the province of B.C. "by contributing $5 billion a year to the economy" — that's a quote from April Britski, executive director, CARFAC National — but also to the social and mental health aspects that arts contribute to the well-being of society.

Is there an appreciation for the arts in our province? It certainly seems like the Olympics are showcasing sports. But in the approaching opening and closing ceremonies for the Olympic Games, aren't the creative visions of visual artists and musicians a huge part of the ceremonies? Let us not tell the world that this demonstration of supporting the arts is false.

The Olympics are a short few weeks, but what about the state of the arts and culture in this province in the years ahead? Please make your cuts elsewhere.

L. Stringfellow: We just have a few recommendations: that our government restore arts and culture funding to the $19.5 million level of the 2008-2009 budget and realize the serious effects any further cuts will have; that the British Columbia Arts Council be maintained by funding through the more appropriate Ministry of Tourism, Culture and the Arts rather than through gaming funding.

The previous 33 percent allotment from gaming for the arts, culture and other non-profit and charitable organizations should be restored. The public community art gallery be funded as equally as museums. Applications for funding be made simpler and consistent, without the
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necessity of jumping through a lot of hoops and needing expert grant writers to unravel the intricacies of grant applications. Uncertainty be removed by maintaining the multi-year funding program beyond the current three-year commitments.

Lastly, we thank you for this opportunity and the time you've given us to make this presentation. The fate of a chunk of Smithers hearts and souls lies in your hands.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you for your presentation. We only have time for one question.

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M. Mungall: Thanks very much for your presentation. Mairead, you mentioned making our cuts elsewhere. One of the things I've been learning over the last while, doing an analysis of B.C.'s budget, is that in the last eight years we have consistently cut corporate taxes. That's actually one of the major contributors to our deficit now — that continuing cut of corporate taxes.

Would you say it's fair for this committee to look at the way in which we are cutting corporate and individual taxes and whether that's the right way to go? When we cut taxes, of course, we cut revenue, and then it impacts the services we are able to deliver as a province.

I guess I'm asking if you think it's fair for this committee to also look at what type of taxes we're cutting and how that's impacting services throughout the province, including the arts.

M. Sikkes: Yes, I think that would be a very good idea, actually, to look at that area.

J. Les (Chair): Again, thank you for your presentation this morning. Next on our agenda was a presentation by Pashan Bassett. However, she is now not presenting this morning. The representatives from school district 91, Sterling Olson and John Stafford, are here, and they're apparently ready to go.

Good morning.

S. Olson: Good morning.

J. Stafford: Good morning. We're going to ask where John Rustad is. He's supposed to be here. I was going to have some discussions with him, but….

J. Les (Chair): Well, you'll have to speak to him about that. He begged leave this morning. Where was he this morning? In Houston or someplace. He had to get some work done there, so after a lot of deliberation, I said: "Okay, away you go." He is rejoining us later on today, though.

J. Stafford: Okay, thank you. I'm John Stafford, trustee from Fraser Lake and currently the chair of school district 91, Nechako Lakes. With me is Sterling Olson, our secretary-treasurer, so any hard questions, he gets.

We're here representing school district 91, Nechako Lakes, so our comments and suggestions will deal with issues related to education. Very briefly, they are protecting vital educational services, creating jobs and supporting communities to become more literate. This is aligned with the "motto" of the Ministry of Education and the government of B.C., which is to make B.C. the most literate area in North America.

First, the annual facilities grant. I'm sure you've heard a bit about this around the province. We feel that the cancellation in September was just not right. We would much rather have had that happen in March or April because most of the projects are in the summer, so the money was already spent by the time the grant was supposed to come.

We would ask you not to do that at that late moment, in the future. There was absolutely no consultation with our board and no warning. We and the ministry are supposed to work together to improve educational opportunities for students, but to me, this appears to be talk on the ministry's part. Our board is very willing to discuss any and all plans with the ministry.

We are all working towards carbon neutrality and have many efficiency projects in the planning stage but are now unable to fund many of these initiatives. How can we meet our carbon goals with no funds to do the necessary work? Is it possible to give boards more time to meet these goals? We do want to be greener, but we'll be very limited in doing so unless we have access to funds or an extended time frame.

It seemed last spring that the MLAs were very liberal — and I put that in there for John Rustad — with funding for our community projects. One could even say that they were encouraging communities to come up with projects for them to help fund. However, boards of education differ. Many of our projects are very similar, and all of our schools are used extensively by the communities. We all feel we should also be considered for some of these grants.

Many of our communities are quite small, and their school is also quite small. The school is often a centre of the community. If the school was not there, many of these communities would suffer as people, especially tradespeople and professionals, leave for larger centres where there are schools and other services.

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While it does cost us to keep the community schools open and in good repair, we feel that it is vital to the existence of the community and to the future of B.C., as a good portion of the revenue for governments comes from the northern resource-based communities. For efficiencies, sometimes our best option for some schools is to downsize, but without the AFG, this is not possible.

Secondly, the other cost increases. Boards of education are facing many cost increases which will soon begin
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to affect the classroom. Included are MSP premium increases, HST costs, H1N1 preparations, the coming carbon tax, the salary increases awarded to educational employees, the increasing cost of providing special education services, the challenge of improving the success of our first nations students, and the list goes on.

Many educational partners have also had their funds cut or eliminated, including B.C. School Sports, PACs, B.C. principals and vice-principals, to name a few. Each of these organizations has helped improve student success in schools. Are we now being asked to fund these organizations in order to continue the programs they have started and we need?

The Ministry of Education has until now funded many programs that benefited our education programs. Included are Roots of Empathy, Leadership for Learning, Network of Performance-Based Schools, arts funding, and the list goes on. Many of these programs benefited the needier students in our system, and their success will be more limited without them. Others provided funds to support research studies in literacy, numeracy and social responsibility for our professional learning communities. We need to know the future funding of these programs from the ministry so that we can make educational choices on where we go from here.

Third point: governments taxing governments. We feel strongly that governments should not be taxing governments. We have been receiving a 68 percent rebate of our GST. Other local governments receive 100 percent rebate. Can you tell us why we should not receive 100 percent rebate? We do not know the future of the new HST, but we ask that boards of education be exempted from this tax, or at least claim 100 percent rebate.

The carbon tax is another place where governments will be taxing governments. This just does not make sense, as by paying this tax we will be unable to do the necessary improvements. We have a comment from last year which we presented to this group regarding a proposal for transformable trades-training facilities for four communities in our district. This proposal had the support of 13 first nations bands, five municipal councils, our regional district, the College of New Caledonia and our school district.

We viewed the project as an economic driver for our region and as infrastructure essential to the long-term development of local learners and the sustainability of our region. This government has invested millions in infrastructure for transportation and municipal projects. While this is appreciated, we now ask you to reconsider our proposal for educational infrastructure that will provide the people of our communities with training and skills so that they can contribute to the future economic success of our region.

In summary, we are asking the government to consult with boards of education about funding decisions well in advance of the change being implemented so that we have time to appropriately plan educational programs and services for learners. We ask governments not to tax governments. We ask you to reinstate funding to the boards that provides for educational services and is used to maintain and update our educational facilities, specifically the AFG.

Consider reinstating funding to partners that support boards of education, and change the funding model to boards of education to reflect the cost of operating and maintaining schools that have excess capacity and are used for other purposes that serve their communities.

Ensure that funding increases to the boards of education are sufficient to cover increased service outcome expectations and inflationary cost pressures.

Find some way to financially support our proposal for the transformable trades training so that people in our region have access to trades training so that we can work in partnership with you to ensure the economic viability of our communities.

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In closing, we believe strongly that maintaining and increasing funding for education can stimulate the economy, protect vital educational services, create jobs and support communities.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you very much. First question to Bruce.

B. Ralston: Thanks very much. I was interested in your comment that there was no consultation with your board on the cutting of the annual facilities grant. We heard a similar position very strongly taken by the chair of the Vancouver school board.

The Minister of Education in the Legislature has said that there was…. Apparently, her position is that there was some kind of written notice given late in the spring. I'm wondering if you could confirm your position that that's just not accurate.

J. Stafford: As board chair, I received nothing. The only thing I've heard verbally from our superintendent was that they were encouraged to spend their surpluses. That's the only thing I know about.

Sterling?

S. Olson: That's correct. Actually, in previous years the announcements have been delayed, and whenever issues have been raised around concerns around whether or not the grant would be forthcoming, we were always told: "Don't worry about it. They're just timing issues."

So we figured that this year was very similar to that, in that while there had been no announcement prior to the summer work starting, the expectation was that the grant would continue as in previous years.
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B. Ralston: Just to confirm, then. There was nothing in writing and no verbal notice at all.

S. Olson: I believe there may have been some sort of side conversations with different partner groups. But as far as any formal announcement, written or otherwise, to boards telling them that they weren't going to be getting the grant? No, not that I'm aware of.

J. Thornthwaite: Thank you very much for your presentation. As a former board chair, I appreciate your presentation, and I'm happy to up here in this neck of the woods.

My question is that if the committee was to recommend to the Ministry of Education with regards to the consultation and any changes — not just the AFG but any changes with regards to school funding, funding formula — when in the year would you recommend that the time be to recommend that?

J. Stafford: I would say that it has to be done in the spring, as we're in the midst of budget makeup then. When's our date? May 30 we have to have the budget done. So to me, March is sort of the time we need so that we can plan things. For our summer projects, we're in planning by March.

Sterling?

S. Olson: Correct.

J. Thornthwaite: We also got some input from other school districts, not necessarily trustees and secretary-treasurers, with regards to the possibility of getting back to local taxation. Are you for or against that?

J. Stafford: I personally am against it. However, we have not as a board discussed it.

J. van Dongen: John, you mentioned the 68 percent rebate of GST to your school district, and you said that other jurisdictions got a 100 percent rebate. Could you just clarify that for me and fill in the details on that?

J. Stafford: I'll pass it to Sterling. My understanding is that municipal governments get 100 percent.

J. van Dongen: You're talking local governments. Okay.

S. Olson: Local governments.

You're shaking your head, John.

J. Les (Chair): No, they don't.

S. Olson: That's what we were told by our counterparts across the street and by other ones and stuff.

J. van Dongen: Well, let's just clarify what you get now.

S. Olson: We get a 68 percent tax rebate for our GST.

J. van Dongen: From the federal government.

S. Olson: Correct, and our understanding was that other local governments get 100 percent GST.

J. van Dongen: Again, the GST rebate from the federal government.

S. Olson: Correct.

J. van Dongen: And you're saying that you'd like this committee to recommend a 100 percent tax rebate of HST or GST?

S. Olson: Well, both, actually. I guess that as you combine the GST with the PST into a new HST, I think the message, as John said, was that from the board's perspective, it would be nice if governments didn't tax governments. So for all intents and purposes, if boards pay more tax, or pay tax, it's basically just funding that you provide to a board. Then they're basically paying tax which goes back to government. If there's a way to have it so that that doesn't happen or that any future taxes don't eat into the resources that boards have to spend on education….

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J. van Dongen: So in that scenario you would be money ahead of the status quo, then, because you currently don't get a credit on outlays of PST out of your budget.

S. Olson: That's correct.

J. van Dongen: So you're not saying you want to be kept whole; you're saying you want to be money ahead in whatever recommendations that we make.

J. Stafford: Really, what we're saying is that our feeling is that governments should not be taxing governments. So I guess yes to your comment. And if we are wrong and 100 percent, we do apologize. That was our understanding. That's what we thought.

J. Les (Chair): That's fine. We'll dig into it a little more.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Thanks, John and Sterling, for the presentation — very articulate and well laid out.

The cost increases that you outlined, John, were articulated by others, but it's nice to hear them all in one,
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because we hear that funding has increased through the Ministry of Education. But as the B.C. School Trustees Association points out, the costs have more than overtaken those funding increases. So it's good to see a list.

Your points around other groups, too, are well taken. What I'm hearing is that the need is still out there — around education, around literacy, around some of the groups that you said support boards of education. Just because there are funding cuts, it doesn't mean the need is disappearing.

I'm wondering if you've heard back from government around who is going to take up those needs, and who is going to fill the gaps in those needs. Have you heard back yet?

J. Stafford: We haven't. The B.C. School Sports has asked us to support them, in place of governments. Our board did decide to do it for this year because we thought it was an emergent situation. It's not a commitment forever. But other than that, I'm not aware.

D. McRae: As a rural school district, have you had the opportunity or do you have the facilities to explore possible efficiencies or new efficiencies within your organization in terms of maybe partnering with municipalities, partnering with private enterprise or looking, perhaps, at how you provide transportation services for your students within your district?

J. Stafford: We haven't really done that. What the ministry sometimes sort of suggests is that instead of having secretary-treasurers for our district, we should combine with another district, but we're really opposed to that because we've got a lot of small communities. If we start taking all the professionals out of the communities, it's a never-ending spiral, where the communities sort of close up. People don't want to come to those communities if they don't have schools and they don't have the movie theatre, and so on and so on.

You take professionals out of the smaller communities, and you really gut the communities. But we know the writing is on the wall. We know we have to be efficient, and we may be exploring some things in the future.

Sterling?

S. Olson: I guess I'll address a couple of different points.

On transportation. Typically, there is no other transportation service provider in our communities. We don't have any public transport, so as far as the board providing transportation for students to get to and from school, we're it.

Do we try to do things in conjunction with other local governments even inside of that? Yes. I had conversations with local government around: can we be using school buses to provide transportation to seniors and elders, back and forth to clinics — those kinds of things? Yes. But some would view school buses as not the most ideal bus for some of those situations.

As far as space goes, I guess the challenge for a board becomes: when you have excess space inside of a school and you're basically having to heat it, maintain it, clean it, where are the resources coming from for that? Of course, if you're spending those resources, you're not spending them on some other educational services.

There are even issues right now with respect to what government's perspective is on…. If you closed the school right now, I think there's very limited support for closing and disposing of schools. We should be moving more towards neighbourhoods of learning and trying to bring other activities into our schools.

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Really, what it comes down to is: okay, well, who's paying for the space? Because everybody wants the space for free, typically, when they come into schools. Then, of course, that creates a challenge for the board, because now, again, you're spending less money on kids and services to kids, and you're supporting others. If you do that, to what extent do you get some efficiencies if local government closed down their district office and moved some of their offices into schools?

So do we look at those things? Yes, we do. Typically, there aren't some simple answers, but are there things that need to continue to be explored? Yes.

I guess the last comment would be that in schools you'll pass through on your way to Prince George, like Topley and others…. We have schools in those rural communities. There is no other local government. There isn't much. So as far as trying to find ways to use excess capacity inside some of those buildings, there isn't really very much there.

That ties back to my final comment. As John said, to come back to the carbon-neutral piece, we've got schools in those communities that have a larger footprint than what we need. We need to do upgrades to try to meet the carbon piece. Then, of course, when some of the grants that are supporting some of those upgrades aren't there, it creates an additional challenge for the board.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you both very much.

Neither of the next two presenters is here yet. I don't know whether they're still coming, so is there anybody in the audience that hasn't yet spoken that would like to speak?

S. Peters: I wasn't prepared to give a presentation today, but I've been thinking about it.

My name is Sheila Peters, and I'm on the board of directors of the Northern Society for Domestic Peace, which is a non-profit social service agency. We provide a continuum of services for individuals and families, basically to strengthen their relationships and improve the quality of their lives by addressing violence, abuse and at-risk lifestyles. We provide services in Smithers and Houston
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and the Wet'suwet'en community of Moricetown. We also have some outreach services to the Hazeltons and the surrounding Gitxsan communities.

I'd like to give you a bit of history, but I'd like to preface this, I guess, by saying that I think it's important that social service agencies and arts communities don't see this as squabbling over a small piece of the pie — dividing up taxes into who gets what and who loses what.

I heard an earlier question from you, Mr. Ralston, about incentives to business in the form of tax exemptions, which people call incentives to business. But when social service and arts groups are given similar incentives, we call it subsidies. I think it's important for this committee to consider looking at the whole way we are taxed in this province and look at the big picture rather than see us as dividing a small amount of the revenue between us.

I know that artists are really important to our work in this particular field. When a child has been assaulted, there's hardly anyone who can reach that child except for an art therapist. You can't talk to a child who's three years old.

[1105]

Anyway, back to what our organization does. We began about 20 years ago. We established a transition house and have grown services over that time, focusing around women and their children who are facing violence. We worked hard to develop services that also incorporated programs for men, programs in the area of prevention and counselling as well as direct intervention.

These programs were run under women's ministries, which recognized the unique perspective required to most effectively address issues of women's safety and the well-being of children in the context of family violence. We know that those particular issues have been brought home very recently in this province.

In the past eight years what was once a dedicated Ministry of Women's Equality was restructured. The administering of the programs and funding transitioned to, first of all, the Ministry of Community, Aboriginal and Women's Services, which then transitioned to the Ministry of Community Services and then transitioned to the Ministry of Housing and Social Development, which no longer referenced women specifically in its mandate.

We are now entering another transition. Some of our services are going to the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General. The transition houses and their programs have been transferred to the B.C. Housing corporation.

Every time those ministries shift, key policy people within the community, who have the connections to provide a context within government for the work we do in our communities, are often lost. This disconnection is costly because it impairs both continuity and accountability for the responsible outcomes we've worked so hard over those 20 years to identify and implement. Every time we have these transitions, it decreases both the government's ability and the community's ability to really respond accountably to the critical issues around violence in relationships.

These are issues that only escalate when we're in economic difficulty. It only gets worse. We've noticed that, for example, in our transition house in the community. It has been at more than 100 percent capacity since January. So we see that directly.

I think the government has recognized that by restoring the funding cuts that happened, but we're still in a situation of being very uncertain as to what's coming next year. We have some real difficulties around planning for the future. So we do have some recommendations.

Organizations such as ours have really invested a lot, in both capital and human resources as well as volunteer time, to develop expertise that is specific to our community and specifically around this issue of domestic violence, which is really its own field. It's not just about anger management or dealing with violence in a more criminal, general sense. It's a much more complex dynamic.

I guess what we're very concerned about is…. Often what looks like a cost-saving measure is for the government to go to a procurement process, where requests for proposals are put out to provide services on a provincial level. You're looking basically at who can do it for the cheapest.

We really are concerned about that. It's time-consuming for us as non-profits to fund the time for people to put in those proposals. Often groups that can provide really high-quality, leading-edge services in a small community don't have the resources or even the interest to provide those on a provincial level. They should not be cut off from that. We really would like to see that not happen.

Continual shifts in reporting requirements are also costly. It takes time away from our staff, who could be providing front-line services, and that could be really complicated.

What we would like you to do, I guess, when you're looking at this is to commit to retaining the current contracts with existing contract holders — obviously, with the understanding that they're successfully fulfilling their mandate. We don't want funding to go to agencies that aren't doing that.

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We'd really like you to continue to collaborate with existing associations and make sure that funding is stable for the community partners that have worked so hard to make B.C. a safer place for women and their children and that we are supported in providing that in a way that understands both regional dynamics and also funds the kind of supports that provincial organizations give to local communities.

The provincial arts organizations provide professional development, education and support and can speak with a unified voice on behalf of local arts organizations.
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We have the same kind of…. We have EVA and the B.C.-Yukon Society of Transition Houses. We need to have them funded, as well, to provide ways for us to meet and ways for us to share expertise.

So we want stable — and, obviously, we have projects — increased funding in some areas locally, but also stable funding to provide that support provincially.

I think I can stop there. If anyone has any questions.

J. Les (Chair): Thank you, Sheila.

The first question is to Michelle.

M. Mungall: Thanks very much for your presentation, Sheila. This is an issue that I've been working quite hard on with some of my opposition colleagues. I was very pleased to get upstaged by the Solicitor General when I was about to hold a press conference to press for funding restoration and then got upstaged and heard him make that commitment. That was a good day.

I'm concerned about, of course, the 2010 budget, which is what we're talking about here. I just want to be clear, when I go and speak again with the deputy minister for the 2010 budget, that the funding be continued. Right now it is actually slated to be cut; $1.2 million worth of funding is slated to be cut for the transition homes and the counselling projects that were going to be cut this year. We're looking at a cut in the 2010 budget.

I just want to be clear that you would like to see the funding that was restored this year restored for next year as well.

S. Peters: Absolutely. It's imperative. Because of the economic situation, we have a significantly increased demand on our services there.

J. van Dongen: Thanks, Sheila, for a good presentation. First of all, are you funded through the Ministry of the Solicitor General, just with specific reference to your agency? And then just talk a little bit about police-based victim services — on how you connect with them in the communities in which you operate.

S. Peters: First of all, we run 11 programs. I must admit, as I said, that I wasn't prepared to give a formal presentation today. We run the police-based victim services. We also have the specialized victim services that we run.

We run a pregnancy outreach program that is funded in different areas. We run Caring Companions, which is funded for people who are displaced and need someone to support them in terms of residential care programs, as well as the core of services around domestic violence.

So we get — as I said, the ministries keep changing — funding from the Solicitor General, and now B.C. Housing is in charge of transition houses. My understanding — but you probably know this better than I do — is that the police-based victim assistance comes from the Solicitor General as well.

J. van Dongen: Do you think that there is, in your experience — and you seem very experienced to me — a benefit in having the community-based victim service organization such as yourself also provide the police-based victim services function? There's a distinct requirement there — it seems to me, anyway.

I'm just curious in terms of constructing a model for the province. I got your point about having regionally based non-profits or organizations to deliver it, but do you think there's merit in the fact that you're doing both in the community?

[1115]

S. Peters: I really can't speak around specifics. However, I know that there's some merit in the fact that oftentimes people who may be contacted by the police service…. It's involved in a specific domestic abuse issue or a child sexual assault issue. Because of the close connection, as they're run through the same organization, they know about the other services that are available.

That, right there, is a real benefit, because in some communities there isn't always that communication. Communication is a huge issue, but I can't speak to the specifics of other issues.

I do know that we have a committee for women's safety in our community. That consists of court services and both the specialized victims assistance and the police-based, as well as other agencies that are involved in that in order to maintain the kind of communication that's needed to keep women and their children safe.

D. Donaldson (Deputy Chair): Hi, Sheila. Thanks for driving in on the frozen roads from the Driftwood today.

We heard from Dana earlier about a World Bank definition of social capital, about it being the glue that holds society together. I just want to say that organizations like the one you're representing today are a part of that glue that holds us together.

I know you mentioned the service area you cover, but just to give it on the record, to give the concept of the remote and rural nature of it, it's 150 linear kilometres from Houston to Hazelton, and then there are all the side communities as well. So you cover a lot of ground with the Northern Society for Domestic Peace.

My question is about the non-profits such as yours. The government over the last little while has become more dependent on non-profits to deliver the kinds of services you describe. It impressed me — the resilience of the organization, when I was at the AGM, and the way you've managed to keep going for 25 years.

Can you comment a bit on the resilience? You've talked about the impact of changing ministries and then
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the yo-yo with funding. Can you just expand or comment on how that has made the job that you do more challenging? Expand on that.

S. Peters: Well, I guess how I can expand on that is the real pressure and stress it puts upon our staff. We have full-time people, not a lot, who work for us and part-time people. Oftentimes there really isn't the kind of time and the funding for them to put in the time to do the kind of work around the process we've been put through in the last few months.

We've had to do several rewrites of our budget because the funding kept changing. Our executive director has spent hours and hours doing that, as opposed to providing the kind of support she could be providing in other areas. She's had several teleconference meetings about the funding process, reporting formulas, etc. — so how information has to be gathered and kept.

One side issue to that is that as those reporting requirements change, the documentation and the history of these issues and the ability for us to show the effectiveness of our services diminishes because we having to keep track of different numbers. Then all of a sudden numbers that you were keeping 15 or 20 years ago…. You're not keeping them anymore, so you can't show if there's been a reduction or so on. It's hard for us to properly evaluate our services.

I have to say that basically, it's our staff who deal with…. I'll try not to get too emotional. They do very difficult work and are then worried about whether or not they have a job because of all the talk around the cuts, so it's been really, really hard.

J. Les (Chair): Okay. Anyone else?

Thank you, Sheila, for an impromptu presentation.

S. Peters: Thank you very much for giving me the opportunity.

J. Les (Chair): We have two potential presenters who didn't show up this morning. I don't see anyone in the room who hasn't yet made a presentation.

My call would be that we conclude the hearing and reconvene in Prince George this afternoon at four o'clock, I guess. Maybe because we're a little early here, we can leave here at a quarter to one instead of one o'clock.

The committee adjourned at 11:20 a.m.

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