2008 Legislative Session: Fourth Session, 38th Parliament

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

MINUTES AND HANSARD

MINUTES SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

Thursday, September 18, 2008

9 a.m.

Room 119, Conference Room A, Pioneer Complex

351 Hodgson Road, Williams Lake, B.C.

Present: Randy Hawes, MLA (Chair); Robin Austin, MLA; John Horgan, MLA; Richard T. Lee, MLA;
John Rustad, MLA

Unavoidably Absent: Bruce Ralston, MLA (Deputy Chair); Harry Bloy, MLA; Dave S. Hayer, MLA;
Diane Thorne, MLA; John Yap, MLA

1. The Chair called the Committee to order at 9:08 a.m.

2. Opening statements by Randy Hawes, MLA, Chair.

3. The following witnesses appeared before the Committee and answered questions:

4. The Committee adjourned at 10:09 a.m. to the call of the Chair.

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

select standing committee on
Finance and Government Services

Thursday, September 18, 2008

Issue No. 77

ISSN 1499-4178

[ Page 1839 ]

THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 18, 2008

The committee met at 9:08 a.m.

[R. Hawes in the chair.]

R. Hawes (Chair): Good morning, everyone. I'm Randy Hawes, and I'm the MLA for Maple Ridge–Mission. I'd like to welcome all of you and thank you for taking the time to participate.

In preparing estimates for 2009's budget, the Minister of Finance is required to release both a fiscal forecast and a budget consultation paper by September 15. The consultation paper is required to provide a description of the major economic and policy assumptions underlying that fiscal forecast, as well as identify key issues that need to be addressed by the public in preparation for the next budget.

The Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services is charged with carrying out public consultations on the minister's behalf. This is an all-party committee, and we are required to report back to the Legislature by not later than November 15.

If you would like to review the consultation paper, there are print copies available at the registration desk in the back of the room. Information on how you can make a presentation to the committee is available on our website at www.leg.bc.ca/budgetconsultations.

As a reminder, any input that the committee receives in writing or electronic form is given the same consideration as any oral presentations that might be made here today. Due to the recently announced federal election, we have extended the deadline for submissions to Friday, October 24.

[0910]

Today we are going to hear from some presenters who have preregistered with the Office of the Clerk of Committees. Presentations are no longer than 15 minutes, and we recommend that you try to keep it to ten and allow five minutes for questions and answers. If you wish to take the whole 15 minutes in your presentation, that's fine with us too. I'll remind you when you get to ten minutes. I'll just give you the high sign, and when you have two minutes left, if you go that far in your presentation, I'll remind you when you have two minutes left to go.

Time permitting, we'll also have an open-mike session at the end of the hearing. Open-mike presentations are no longer than five minutes, and there is no question period with those.

I'll now ask the members of the committee to introduce themselves, starting with Robin.

R. Austin: Good morning. My name is Robin Austin. I'm the MLA for Skeena, and I live in Terrace.

J. Horgan: I'm John Horgan. I'm the MLA for Malahat–Juan de Fuca, which is just north and west of Victoria.

J. Rustad: Good morning. John Rustad, MLA for Prince George–Omineca and chair of our northern caucus.

R. Lee: Good morning. I'm Richard Lee, MLA for Burnaby North.

R. Hawes (Chair): Joining us today also, I'm pleased to introduce our Clerk, Kate Ryan-Lloyd. Also with us today is Stephanie Hansen, who is staffing the registration desk at the back, and the staff from Hansard Services, Michael Baer and Polly Vaughan, who will be recording and preparing a written transcript of today's meeting. As well, today's proceedings are being broadcast live on the Internet.

So with that, I'd like to call on Wilf Pfleiderer of the B.C. Wildlife Federation, region 5.

Presentations

W. Pfleiderer: On behalf the members of region 5, B.C. Wildlife Federation, we'd like to extend a big Cariboo welcome to the distinguished members of the Standing Committee on Finance.

I'd like to address four items of concern today: fish and wildlife management, conservation officer service, invasive species and forestry recreational sites.

Fish and wildlife management. We believe that the Ministry of Environment has a core responsibility to provide for proper fish and wildlife management in the province of B.C. At present we are seeing, due to limited funds especially for inventory and normal service provisions, that there seems to be a lack of funding. There are issues, for example, in inventory at present for this year — $400,000 for wildlife inventory and $200,000 for fish inventories.

We are faced with some challenges. We are faced with first nations. Please refer to the William case. Under that case Judge Vickers provided three conditions of infringement: infringement on wildlife populations, infringement on the number of species and infringement on habitat that impacts those wildlife populations. However, without proper inventory how can we ascertain that there is no infringement on first nation rights?

We see a lot of money being directed to climate change, but your wildlife species and your fish species are key indicators to the impacts of climate change. If we don't have a proper baseline for measurement, how do we know what those impacts are? So we believe that this should be a consideration.

We also have obligations under the species-at-risk legislation, and that can impact the resources. First nations will impact the resources. Until those rights are clarified
[ Page 1840 ]
and our proper populations are established, there will be uncertainty, and there will be impediments to a positive direction for advancement for the province.

Conservation officer service. We would like to see…. There was a structural change to the way the field manning occurs for the conservation officer service. At present there has never been an audit done to ensure the commitment that there would be no net loss out in the field by the conservation officer service. Our membership is seeing a direct loss in those hours.

Members are complaining about incompletion of files and, if you look at appendix A when you have a chance, that provides what the manning should be in the province. If you go through the province you will find that that manning isn't there at the present time. It provides increased workloads.

[0915]

We believe that there should be more money, for example, in what we call Site Bella Coola. We haven't had a conservation officer there for the last six months. The rest of the conservation officers here have to pick up the workload. We used to have an office in Alexis Creek; it got closed.

You need to look at the vastness of our landscape. You need to look at other provincial jurisdictions. I think this does a real disservice. I'm not talking about if there are chipmunks in somebody's roof, but the important…. There are issues with habitat, wildlife, fisheries. Those are the issues that we want to see addressed. At the present levels, they aren't being addressed.

I think there should also be an audit to see how much of the workload is not completed. Along with the reductions to the conservation officer service, we've also seen a loss of clerical staff. So I would point out to the Standing Committee on Finance: when you make such a huge investment to train a conservation officer, wouldn't it be a lot wiser to have them use their expertise, and provide clerical staff to perform the clerical functions at a reduced cost? I see a huge benefit.

The other thing that you need to consider is that we spend a lot of energy, as a province, providing training for these individuals. If we only employ them as seasonal officers and there's another jurisdiction that posts for a full-time officer, you need to think of the benefits to your family, and it's a natural move. So here this investment to bring this person up to a specific calibre to conduct their duties is lost. And there's a loss to the province.

Invasive species. We've had the dispersion of spiny-ray fishes into our southern Interior fishways. Here in Quesnel we've had it. Region 3, region 8 and the Okanagan have all witnessed this. I'd like to commend the Ministry of Environment because they took a step forward to providing a proscription on a lake in region 3. It was very successful, and we would ask that the Standing Committee on Finance consider providing more moneys so that we can continue with this proscription to eradicate these spiny-ray fishes.

What you need to look at…. These fish, if they get into our waterways, will impact our world-class salmon fishery, both commercially and recreationally. They'll also impact our steelhead, our trout species, our kokanee. All our native species will be impacted, because they're so gregarious in their appetite. So what we're saying is: for an investment now, look at the benefits to the future.

Cariboo is a perfect example. If you look at how many lodges, angling guides, the recreational opportunity and the investment that it brings to the region as a whole, and you extrapolate that throughout the province, I think it's well worth the investment.

The last item for consideration is our forest recreational sites. I realize they're under the Ministry of Tourism and the Arts, but they serve as a place, a camping facility for tourists, whether you're from B.C. or out of the province or from somewhere in the world.

We believe that more funding should be directed…. If you go throughout the province, you will see that there isn't a standard. Some of the sites are in very poor disarray; other ones are in spectacular shape. We believe that there needs to be a standard, because when we have tourists come, when they use those sites, that's an impression of B.C. that they're left with. We're supposed to be the best place on earth. I think that for a small investment….

If you go back to a former resource analysis by the Ministry of Forests and Range, it showed that there was a direct benefit — a huge benefit — to the province financially. So we believe that because of that benefit, there should be a better consideration to have a standard across the province and ensure that these sites are adequately maintained.

I'd like to thank the committee for the opportunity to raise these four issues on behalf of my membership.

R. Hawes (Chair): You've done very well. You're right on ten minutes.

So we'll start with John.

J. Horgan: Thanks very much, Wilf. It's always encouraging for a guy who lives near the city to come and hear from someone who is in the woods and in the bush, with hands-on knowledge about what's going on with invasive species, what's going on with inventories.

[0920]

I want to touch on the inventory question, because as you say in your presentation, if we're going to base our decisions on science, we better have some science to base those decisions on. Clearly, at this point in time, we don't.

You highlight the grizzly issue and the elk issue. The grizzly issue is a controversial one in the Lower Mainland, less so the further north you come. Perhaps you could give us your interpretation or your sense of
[ Page 1841 ]
where we are with the science, where we are in the community and how this committee can assist in increasing resources for those inventories.

W. Pfleiderer: Well, we believe that it should be a science-based decision. But right now, with $400,000 for wildlife inventories, how can you do justice? We've created a conservation framework, which assists the ministry staff. They've created it to determine their priorities. But if you don't have and continue to do inventory work, how do you know what you really have?

I'll give you a more relevant example here in the Cariboo — the Tsilhqot'in Nation, which challenge is a result of the William case and Judge Vickers's ruling. Their concern is moose, and they don't feel that the population is there. And there can be impacts to the forestry sector, the mining sector and the recreational community because there isn't a proper inventory that the Ministry of Environment can provide at the present date.

You need to look across the entire province, and we have more first nation issues arising, if you do your homework. Region 5 — we had roadblocks here. Region 6 — you look at the regulations. They're not for conservation needs. They're for first nation concerns because they feel that the populations aren't present, and we need to justify it. The courts have clearly indicated that we need to consult with first nations and provide that confidence to them.

J. Rustad: Thank you for the information.

I'm curious. With regards to the inventories and the work that's being done, I have two questions. First, do you find that — I'm going to call it this in terms of quota levels, in terms of actually going out and the management and the harvesting of animals — those reflect what current inventory information, what the science is saying?

Second of all, you mention the amount of dollars that are currently being spent on inventory work. How much more do you think would be required to be able to significantly improve those inventory levels, to be able to have that better science so that we could try to manage some of those issues?

W. Pfleiderer: In terms of inventory funding, I would like to see a huge step, because you don't realize the power of SARA. I mean, we can close down a whole region to resource extraction because we have one species that we're not sure what the population is. You need to realize that B.C. is the last cornerstone for many of the species. If you go to the ministry and request to have a mapping site, you will see the migration of a huge expanse. B.C. is the last frontier. In a lot of those cases, these red-listed species are coming to B.C., and we'll be the only jurisdiction that has them.

I would just say that in terms of inventory, the regional staff try to do their best. Then they take a measurement, and based on that measurement and on what's available, they derive their population estimates. There is the provision during the allocation periods, based on new inventory work, to see that change. But generally, we don't see new inventory work happening.

Right now, because of the conservation framework, the key species of the main wildlife species is mountain goat. There are concerns there. So that's where the inventory will be directed.

The other sad part…. What ends up happening is that there's a Habitat Conservation Trust foundation, and that was created by people — sportsmen, anglers, hunters, trappers, guide-outfitters — to provide extra money for special projects. But now we're at the point where regional staff are looking at those moneys to meet their basic core commitments. We don't feel that that's right.

We gave permission. We voluntarily gave our money, and we don't feel there should be an encroachment on those. If you begin to look at the submissions, that's what you'll see — that the regions are looking for extra money to meet their core requirements so that they can meet their obligations for wildlife management.

R. Austin: I just wanted to ask a question of clarification around the conservation officer service.

[0925]

You say in your brief here that the restructuring of the conservation officer service has led to increased duties. Could you perhaps explain what you mean by the restructuring of the conservation officer? Did we at one time have more positions available? I understand that we're lacking positions that are not filled, but did we at one time have far more conservation officers than currently on your appendix A?

W. Pfleiderer: Yes. What happened is that there was a restructuring to create a commercial investigation unit, and that has taken away from a field presence that was formerly there. The commitment was, at the time, that there would be no net loss in field hours, and we firmly believe that there has been a net loss.

We've asked for an audit function. The other key to it is an audit function of your workload. How many case files are left uncompleted at the end of the year? Because if you have a huge discrepancy and if it's dependent on the region, you can see where you should be directing additional manning and consideration.

The other part is that when you're short, say in the Cariboo, the workload on the existing officers is phenomenal. If you get a map of British Columbia, look at region 5. Look at the vast…. They're responsible for all of it. We've got a handful of officers.

The other sad part of what happens now, too, is that because we only have a handful of officers, locals realize
[ Page 1842 ]
where these officers go to. So people that aren't — how should I say it — upstanding in the community make well use of that. We don't support poaching and that. We still believe that they have some very important core functions that are not being addressed.

R. Hawes (Chair): Richard. And it's going to be pretty short.

R. Lee: On the forest recreational sites, how much do you think should be spent there, and which area? Of course, region 5 may be a priority. If you are objectively looking at the whole province, which area would be the priority?

W. Pfleiderer: Well, one of the areas that I think really needs looking to is region 6. Go up to Atlin. The forest recreational sites are a disgrace. Go to Tutshi Lake. You've got all the tour buses from the cruise lines coming to Tutshi Lake. There used to be a forest recreational site there. There's not even an outhouse. It's an unbelievable vista. Every tour bus stops there. We don't have one picnic table; we don't have one outhouse.

What kind of message are we sending? That's all the Alaskan cruise ships. They do it by bus. They have the ability to do it by motorcycle, Jeep. They all go to Whitehorse, and that lake is a major viewpoint for all those tourists. It's pretty sad. And the other part is that it's also an issue about hygiene, because when you don't have the proper facilities, you're creating a nightmare. That's the purpose of having proper toilet facilities and garbage collection.

I think you also need to have some local onus, because you can't expect staff from Smithers to go all the way up to Atlin or to Tutshi Lake to do the maintenance. To me, you can hire a contractor. But those should be considerations, because I still believe…. My company is about best practices, being fiscally responsible and always looking at how to save money and provide the biggest bang for the taxpayers of this province. That's what I'm asking for.

R. Hawes (Chair): Thanks, Wilf. Your message is well put across, so we will be taking a good look at this as we move forward.

W. Pfleiderer: Enjoy your stay in the Cariboo.

R. Hawes (Chair): Thank you.

Next we have the Cariboo-Chilcotin Teachers Association and Joan Erb.

J. Erb: Thank you very much for allowing me the opportunity to come and speak here. I won't take a lot of your time. I've got one issue and that's Bill 33. That is legislation passed controlling class size and class composition.

Last year in the province there were 13,000 class-size and class-composition violations: 3,000 class-size, 10,000 class-composition. We are very concerned, as educators, about the quality of instruction we can offer to students in the classroom where there are over 30-plus kids, where there are students with special needs and no support, and no money coming forward to provide those. The Ministry of Education has come up with a lot of great initiatives. None of them come with any financial support.

[0930]

We are being extremely creative in the Cariboo-Chilcotin — our board, our teachers, our support staff — in trying to figure out ways that we can meet the needs of all students. We're coming up against a brick wall, one after the other.

We believe in the education system. We think we have the basis of a very good system. It's always difficult to talk about education to people, because we're all experts in one way or another of our own educational experience. Ladies and gentlemen, schools have changed, and kids have changed. The demands on the public system are becoming greater and greater. We do less teaching and more counselling and struggling and finding food for kids that come with no food.

The first day of school used to be my favourite day. I've always wanted to be a teacher. I've been a teacher for 26 years. I'm passionate about it; I'm passionate about kids. First day of school, there is nothing worse for me than when I walk into a building and the have kids and the have-not kids are extremely obvious. And don't think that they don't know.

We're doing that in the classroom now. It's bad enough that there's that kind of stuff happening in the hallways, but now we're doing it in the classroom. The kids that are unable to keep up with the curriculum, which is demanding and demanding more from us every day, are left alone and are not getting the support that they need.

I would just ask you, please, to consider funding Bill 33 for what it was meant to be. The language is excellent. But the support is not out there, and we cannot implement Bill 33 without some financial backing.

And that is short and to the point.

J. Horgan: Thank you very much, Joan. We've heard from school boards so far on this trip, in Smithers, in Fort St. John and also in Prince George, about inadequate funding for Bill 33.

There are other shortfalls that are being highlighted by school districts. I'm wondering if the teachers association here in the Cariboo has any.... You said your primary issue was class size and class composition, but have you contemplated the impact on your employer to pay for increased commodities such as energy costs, the carbon tax — those sorts of things? Do you think those factor in to the decisions that your board of education is making?
[ Page 1843 ]

J. Erb: Absolutely. I think that's absolutely right. However, our board is trying the best that they can to accommodate Bill 33 and the carbon tax and all these other fuel costs and whatnot — fair enough. But it's still not an excuse. Or actually, that's all it is. It's just an excuse.

J. Horgan: So just to supplement that, then, Joan. The additional costs that are being downloaded onto boards are providing those trustees with the opportunity to say: "Well, we can't meet our legislated obligations for class size and class composition for these reasons." Or are they...? Absent those reasons, would you still think that there would be a problem with underfunding based on a per-pupil funding model?

J. Erb: I think, to be honest with you, that the problem is at the provincial level and not at the board level — certainly not in this district. I have to speak very highly of our board and its efforts to deal with it.

I think you also have to consider.... Our board has got an extra challenge. Our district is just about the size of New Brunswick, and our busing costs are much greater than areas in the Lower Mainland, where they have access to public transit.

J. Rustad: Thank you. Actually, this is more of a statement, I suppose, than a question. I just wanted to say, as a former school trustee, that I know how hard the teachers work to try to make things happen for the children in the classroom. The challenges that can come from a budgetary side are significant. But you guys always manage to produce good results, so I actually just wanted to say thank you very much for your presentation, and thank you very much for what you do with the students.

J. Erb: Thank you. I would just like to add that we do, do a good job, and we've got a lot of good people out there. But fewer and fewer people are going into education. And they're not going into education because of what used to be, and in my opinion still is, the best job in the world. To young people, it's not.

R. Hawes (Chair): Thank you very much, Joan, for a very succinct, to-the-point message.

Dave Zirnhelt. Where have we heard that name before?

D. Zirnhelt: Thank you for coming to Williams Lake, and thanks for the opportunity to present. I'm giving you my speaking notes, and I think this would be a few of some of the needs, and I'll say some of them.

[0935]

I'm going to specialize in three areas: agriculture, regional development and first nations issues. I work in these fields, you might say. I'm a rancher — or more appropriately, a grass farmer is what I am, I think. Our family has a value-added wood business as a result of diversification strategies for the family ranch. Our family actually runs a small consulting company as well, working in natural resource management planning and issues related to the topics I'm speaking to.

First of all, in agriculture — how to deal with structural change in the industry. It is a structural change; it's not a cyclical change. We're not going to come out of it, so we have to do things differently. We need, in particular, extension support in value chain organizing. I don't think people pay too little for their food. I think the farmer just has to be able to grab more of it. It seems many others other than the primary producer are making money.

It's a question of people whose business culture is those of small commercial organizations needing to work together in some kind of strategic alliances. That's a big mouthful. It's not easy. The business culture in farming and ranching has not been about that.

These are areas where government can help: marketing infrastructure, commercialization of technologies, and cultural practices. I'll give one poignant example: dealing with specified risk material, which you know can contribute to BSE. We are having an experiment here with commercializing of an incinerator to deal with the SRMs. Those are the kinds of things that are very hard for small organizations and companies to handle on their own.

The commercialization of it has benefits beyond their own business, but they're often left on their own to do that with some assistance. We need more of that to nurture us through the changes that need to be brought about to re-establish the integrity and profitability of the farming sector.

I think there needs to be recognition of ecological goods and services, and that doesn't necessarily have to be cash, but there has to be some recognition in creating the financial environment for farming and resource stewardship. I think there need to be capital pools. I think there is way too little capital available, and the capital that is available is often at the highest interest rates in business financing. There are structures in place to receive pools or, if necessary, new pools need to be created.

We have to be aware of input costs going up dramatically, and I'll mention a few: the cost of water, the cost of pumping irrigation, and fuel. An average-sized commercial ranch in this area will be paying somewhere between $1,000 and $2,000 more as a result of fuel price increases, some of which are the fuel tax, carbon tax. These aren't sustainable increases in costs of production. They will fuel, as it were, new ways of doing things that are more cost-effective, more fuel-efficient, but those, too, will take time.

The adaptation of less tillage to farming. That can be a help, but a lot of the techniques — I call them cultural
[ Page 1844 ]
practices — need to be supported and nurtured, and they are often beyond the capacity of any one individual average-sized operation to support.

There need to be collaborative networks of all kinds for small producers. The net result — and the purpose, of course — is food security. I say that…. You watch the news every day. Healthy soil is going to fight microbes, and healthy businesses that can afford to take care of security risks are also important.

I'd like to move now to regional development, and I have put the Cariboo-Chilcotin Beetle Action Coalition acronym here in my notes. They have a regional diversification plan. It has cost a million to $2 million, thanks to provincial funding and some federal funding.

[0940]

That plan should be read, when it's available, by every member of the committee, because it is the result of literally tens of thousands of hours of volunteer time, plus the money spent on professionals to develop a plan. I think this will be a regional diversification plan like we have never seen in the province of British Columbia. To respond to it, though, will require a little bit different way of doing business.

I think that there need to be funds with no strings attached — revenue-sharing, if you like — sharing with the region some of the revenues from natural resource extraction in order for the region to have the capacity to implement such things as I mentioned — collaborative networks, development of capital pools.

There needs to be some upscaling of economic activity. Again, I mentioned strategic alliances. We have to behave like an economic region that has a lot of small and medium-sized businesses in it. In order to be an effective player in the world, in a globalized economy, we have to change the whole structure of the way we do business. That means doing business together in the region to achieve efficiencies of scale, particularly in marketing and somewhat in production.

I think that we have to maintain core services to maintain the population. The population exodus…. People are scared that after the beetle-kill here and the bump in activity, people are going to leave. We've seen that. They go to greener pastures — the oil patch in particular. But they leave, say, the forest industry and may not come back. But in particular, we need to retain people in the region. Without the critical mass of human capital, we can't undertake the massive reforms that are necessary in the regional economy.

I would underline training and education, and I focus on literacy and post-secondary, including trades, as absolutely critical to the economic success and to keep the Cariboo as a net contributor to the provincial economy. We could become a have-not region, depending on how many mines go forward after a further slowdown in the forest industry. I think there have been studies that have been done that show on an input-output basis just what a net contributor the Cariboo Chilcotin region has been.

So that plan that is in the process of being presented to government…. Some of you will be aware of it. I think it constitutes a best effort on behalf of the people in the region, and it's not to be underestimated in terms of the potential it holds for diversification.

Finally, on first nations. The previous speaker talked about the decision around the Tsilhqot'in land claim. There has to be a very rapid building of capacity to meet the challenges with joint decision-making — and I'll use that word — in and around first nations rights and title and provincial jurisdiction.

In order to ensure that the necessary reconciliation and accommodation for aboriginal rights and titles is effected, there has to be reconciliation with provincial economic development — not easy — but that will take government staff. Downsizing undermines the capacity of the government to engage, never mind the support that is needed to have the requisite professionals who understand traditional knowledge, traditional cultures and the social and economic structure of aboriginal communities so that they can engage on a level playing field with the province.

I think the law is clear where we are headed. I think that the province is moving with respect to joint decision-making, particularly further north of here. I think we have to make sure that the local officials that are working, be it on treaties or on pre-treaty innovative resource management regimes…. That has to be adequately resourced.

I think the day has come for revenue-sharing. I think that has been started with the forest and range opportunity agreements with first nations, but I believe that that is part of the solution. I think that we shouldn't slow down the treaty-making process. There is evidence that it has been slowed down in this region. That's going to contribute to economic uncertainty.

I think, in particular, an idea whose time really has come…. It came a long time ago. I happen to have been a minister of the provincial government that went to Ottawa to seek the fiscal capacity to buy land to set aside for treaties when it was available, when there were willing sellers.

[0945]

The willing buyer, willing seller principle needs to be resourced, because when land is available and can be bought, often it brings with it water rights, range rights. It will bring peace on the land, because when you pay commercial value for parcels of land, you also deal at one time with a lot of the compensation issues. So you don't get dragged into it if there's an easy market-based compensation settlement issue with the current landowners.

That's my point. I know there's a lot. It's a high level, but I could probably write you a small paper on every one of these points.
[ Page 1845 ]

R. Hawes (Chair): Thank you very much.

J. Horgan: Thank you, David. We've had many conversations on these subjects, particularly the regional development section. I'm looking forward to the Beetle Action committee's final report. The Clerk is going to ensure that all members of the committee get that.

I wanted to focus on the agriculture section of your comments. We hear a lot of talk about food security. We hear a lot of talk about supporting farmers. We hear a lot of talk from all levels of government about the importance of locally grown food, locally produced livestock, but it seems to me that it's a case of telling and not showing.

Resources to the ministry, whether it be federal or provincial, have declined steadily over the past 20 years. Never before have we needed to focus on growing our food locally because of rising transportation costs and also concerns about food safety as a result of mass production and large listeria-type environments at abattoirs and big killing fields, rather than locally killed livestock.

I'm wondering if you could talk to us a little bit about the meat regulations and how that has affected your business and businesses in the Cariboo and also about what we can really do about food security, rather than just talking about it.

D. Zirnhelt: Well, first of all, as a ranching operation, we developed a new product line, which is grass-finished beef. We have an abattoir that's inspected, so it's not an issue for us. We're ten miles from the abattoir, and it's good. The problem is that the small abattoirs can't take all the fattened cattle when they're ready. One of the beauties of feedlots is that they can slow down or speed up the growth and put it into the market, which is essentially a fresh market, when it's needed.

The meat regulations haven't affected us because, as I say, we've gone the way of a commercial operation, except we can't expand. We could probably produce tenfold and increase our income tenfold. And I want to point out that cow-calfs right now are probably losing $50 to $100 a head in their operations. But direct-market beef operations are returning to management in the order of $600 per head. So if you fatten a yearling to market, have it processed and sell it, it's bringing that in. I can quote you studies, but the point is that it is a significant positive return.

The problem is that the abattoirs can't get meat-cutters. Hence, we're going to have to be able to train meat-cutters. People who want to stay in this region are going to have to be trained, because that is a real block right now.

I hope that answers your question.

R. Lee: Can you elaborate on the idea of rancher capital pools? How can the investor benefit, and how can the region benefit?

D. Zirnhelt: Well, capital pools…. As you know, a lot of the major institutions have moved out of financing resource-based industries. Now, some of the major banks are quite good about it. The problem is that there are going to be some risky ventures, unproven ventures.

For example, there is a local chicken processor who has had to go far and away to get their product marketed because they can't get money from the bank because there's no database. There's no analysis, no benchmarks for the bank to compare and do their risk assessment.

So we're talking about pools of capital on which decisions, I think, would be made more locally. In effect, the bankers need to be local. I would use Community Futures as an example. We have local people on the committee. Their record in assessing risks is pretty good, and it certainly is closer to the people. But there will be some risk, and that needs to be underwritten.

[0950]

They are usually new ventures or new businesses that have no record. There is no track record if you want to find out how to run an SRM eradicator, like burning animal refuse. You can't get cash-flow data on that. In fact, for abattoirs lower than a hundred head a day, there is no database. If you hire a consultant to help you do a business plan, they're picking numbers out of the air. So an economy in transition needs to have pools of capital. They need to have business analysts who understand the people, the business culture, the resources and the market.

How would the capital pools work? Well, I think there are people who could say better how that would work, but I believe there should be a regional development agency post–beetle kill that will actually be in a position to act somewhat as a bank to fill in the gaps in the commercial lending system.

R. Hawes (Chair): We're pretty much out of time. I just wanted to offer one observation.

It seems to me very evident that the people, not just in British Columbia but actually internationally, are beginning to demand local produce, and they're beginning to shop local. The 100-mile diet phenomenon seems to be sweeping everywhere. If you go on the Internet, you'll find 100-mile diet, Boston, and 100-mile diet, London.

People are understanding that they need to be shopping local, and that means supporting the local producer. So the local producer also then needs to make sure that the products the public wants are available. There are big opportunities in agriculture right now, I think. Hopefully — and I'm quite sure — the producer is going to move to fill the demand that the public is beginning to see in terms of the benefits of shopping local.

D. Zirnhelt: I agree.

R. Hawes (Chair): Thank you very much.

Doug Porter. Good morning.
[ Page 1846 ]

D. Porter: Good morning.

Just a little background here. I've lived in Alexis Creek for 18 years. When I first moved there, I was told that as soon as you go across the Fraser River you go ten miles west of Williams Lake and a hundred years back in time.

That's changed. Technology has now caught up to us. Because of that and the need for us to access technology at a rapid rate, the community club and the Alexis Creek rod and gun club asked me to present this brief proposal to get high-speed Internet to all the members of the community.

You'll forgive me if I read this, but I think that's the best way I can do it. Alexis Creek is a small ranching and logging community located 112 kilometres west of Williams Lake on Highway 20. It has a population of approximately 120 people, with the largest employers being the Ministry of Forests and Range, Alexis Creek School, the RCMP and Interior Roads.

At present all but Interior Roads have connected to the fibre optic line installed by Telus and enjoy the benefits of high-speed Internet. The Alexis Creek Community Club and Chilcotin Rod and Gun Club have a combined membership of 55 and are of the belief that, with financial support, the rest of the community could also be hooked up to this service, enabling them to access those government sites that have been constantly shifting from office- to web-based forms and applications.

An example of that is that fishing licences are now available on line, as you may be aware — and also the federal fishing licences for salt water.

At present there's a satellite-based provider for a portion of the community within line-of-sight transmission, but this service is not affordable or acceptable to the majority of the community. In this modern age, access to the Web is a necessity for anyone carrying on a business or researching information. The presence of high-speed Internet is one more thing that will make Alexis Creek an attractive place to live and work.

In 2005 Premier Campbell pledged to bridge the digital divide, and we would like to see this government commit to providing this rural community with an affordable high-speed Internet service currently enjoyed by other communities and offices in the Chilcotin.

R. Hawes (Chair): Pretty succinct presentation. Thank you very much.

D. Porter: Thank you. Well, I thought you'd appreciate it.

R. Hawes (Chair): Before anyone else asks a question, could I just ask you for clarification? So there's a fibre optic line that runs through….

D. Porter: It runs all the way to Anahim Lake.

R. Hawes (Chair): So it runs through your community?

[0955]

D. Porter: Yes, it's been there for ten years.

R. Hawes (Chair): So the problem with hooking into it is…. What kind of cost does that involve?

D. Porter: It would be very minimal, I'm sure. I'm not sure. I haven't checked with Telus, but Telus…. One of the people contacted Telus, and Telus said that they would like to hook us up, that it's one of their priorities. But this has been going on for two years. In the meantime a contract went out to a satellite provider, but that was inadequate service then, because only five people hooked up. The cost was prohibitive, and there's an extra charge for downloading more than two gigs of information a month.

R. Hawes (Chair): Is that contracted by Telus, you mean?

D. Porter: I'm not sure who contracted. I think he got a government grant, but I'm not sure. I don't know all the answers to these questions. I wish I did.

R. Hawes (Chair): Okay. Has Telus offered any cost or...?

D. Porter: Not to this point.

R. Hawes (Chair): Okay. Anybody?

R. Austin: Thanks, Doug, for your presentation. This is a problem that's happening all over the province in regards to small communities. I've got several in my area. I live in Terrace. There are approximately 200 families that live around Lakelse Lake, which is about 15 kilometres away from Terrace. Even though there's a high-speed line that goes in between Terrace down to Kitimat and they're right beside it, they have exactly the same problem as you.

I'll get you some information, but there's a company up north that has found an innovative way to use transmitters. What they do is tap into the nearest high-speed box or the high-speed connection, and then they use some other kind of technology that basically sends it…. It's like a gigantic Wi-Fi system, except instead of being in your local Starbucks, it has a radius of, you know, maybe ten miles or something like that. They have proved to be cost-effective for small communities.

I'll maybe get your contact info from either Stephanie or from yourself and see if we can put you in touch with them and see if they can help you out at all.
[ Page 1847 ]

I know there are solutions out there, which the big guys don't want to touch. For Telus it's not worth it for them to come — that's what they tell us, anyway — and add individual lines from their high-speed network, because they need to have a certain number of people in order to make it effective in a small community, and they're not willing to do that. Anyway, we'll talk.

R. Hawes (Chair): Your message is, again, very succinct and well received, so hopefully, we can find solutions.

D. Porter: Thank you. I hope so too. I look forward to it.

R. Hawes (Chair): That concludes the preregistered presenters. We have one open-mike presentation so far — Ed Mead. Welcome.

E. Mead: May I say a special hello to Richard there?

R. Lee: Hi.

E. Mead: How are you doing? Last year we spent two weeks in northern China together on a twinning initiative, so it's good to see you again. We had fun.

R. Lee: Nice to see you.

E. Mead: First of all, my name is Ed Mead. I'm a local small business person, as a professional accountant, but I'm also a city councillor. One of my portfolios under city council is protective services, which includes policing. I'd like to just address some issues with you in the area of policing and policing costs, if I may.

First, my regrets to you. I just came up here because I really didn't want to work this morning, as I'm semi-retired. Then I thought: "Why are we not doing a presentation to you?" So my apologies that it was not put together ahead of time, and I hope my points are distinct for you and you'll understand where I am coming from.

Williams Lake is a small community, statistics-wise, of about 11,000 people. We actually have small borders. Within another five or ten kilometres there are probably another 15,000 people. We have a trading area of perhaps 20,000 to 40,000 — depends who you talk to.

What happens is…. We're a hub city. People come here to do their shopping. Unfortunately, they come here to do their crime too.

Recently, the statistics have been issued for 2007 for policing. On a per-capita basis, we're No. 1 in the province — not by a little bit, by a lot.

Statistics, I agree, are statistics. And some of that, I'll be quite honest with you, has to do with the hub effect. Still, we have high crime. It's affecting the people in our community.

[1000]

Recently we have just done some advertising for people to send us impact statements — I'll give you more detail on that later — and we've been inundated. I'm talking hundreds of impact statements by our citizens in our town, who are concerned about their personal safety, for their families, for their businesses and for just our city in general.

I would like to propose to you that hub cities or small cities, especially like ours, need more help. We don't want to be No. 1 in the province. I'd rather be 194, thank you. But right now we are No. 1. We've been No. 1 for a while. And it's not that we have not done things. Since I was elected three years ago we have put in something close to 40 different initiatives, including crime forums, legislation, hiring a social planner, etc.

In fact, Chief Justice Stansfield, who has come to see us a couple of times — in fact, just within the last month the mayor and I spent two hours with him — has said: "You have done more than I've seen done in any other community in this area." That's not necessarily verbatim. So what I'm saying to you is that we're not sitting back.

We're also a city that's very tight on our budget. It's not easy to, say, just add another two or three officers. If one officer is about $130,000, that means a percent-and-a-half tax increase for our citizens in our city. So if we had two more officers, you're looking at a 3 percent tax increase onto the tax increase of, say, 4 or 5 percent. The last one was 3.9 percent, and 5 percent is projected for the next year. It's going to have a major effect on the citizens of the town.

We have just recently had citizens starting to take the situation into their own hands, and I don't mean in a negative fashion. They're starting to say: "Hey, we've got to be part of this too." So the citizens are responding. They're doing everything. We've got community policing that has just expanded, doing activities that they've never done before. The point is that we're not sitting back.

We need help, though. We can't afford more policing costs. We're No. 1 in the province, and we don't want to be. You may be aware we have a mayor here, Scott Nelson. You may have heard of some of his activities. We're trying to make everyone aware. We're doing different initiatives. The recent one we've done right now is that we've just written IHA, saying: "We're going to hold you responsible for the costs of some of the drunks that we have in our community, if it's a disease. Therefore, you should be helping us out in this area." I'll talk about that more.

Three areas I'd like to talk to you about, if I may. One is the prolific offender program. With great thanks, we were added to the last addition to the prolific offender program. That's great, but there was no money with it. Everybody else that got put on it got money. We're in a small community. Additional police officers cost a lot. We're very fortunate right now that we have a police officer that's waiting to be transferred who is very efficient, and he is doing the work in the prolific offender program for us.

In our town 85 percent of our crime is committed by 15 percent of the offenders. Prolific offenders here are
[ Page 1848 ]
incredible. We are working with Crown counsel. We are pushing them. We are doing everything that we need to be doing in this area to make sure that this stops. We even want…. You've heard of some of the cases that we've had in this town with Robert Inglis. We want him banned from this town. We're trying everything that we can. We're also working on the social….

Also, out of that crime that's committed here…. This is a guess. I have no statistics for it, but I'm going to suggest to you that 75 percent of the crime that's committed is a direct result of use of and/or seeking drugs and alcohol in our town.

So the first issue is the prolific offender program. Great. We needed it desperately. We've implemented. We're working hard on it. We need some money to do it. We weren't given any funds for it. We have to use existing resources to do this prolific offender program. We're very grateful to have it. It's going to make a difference in our community. Those statistics I gave you, I think, are very, very valid ones — where 85 percent of our crime is committed by 15 percent of the offenders.

The second issue that I've got is detox facilities. We have no funding for detox facilities. Let me give you some statistics. In our town last year there were 1,266 calls due to drug and alcohol addiction. Probably 95 percent are due to a park that we have in downtown area and/or other areas in the downtown area.

There were 866 arrests due to this drug and alcohol situation. If it's in the park, an officer has to go. We have to take an RCMP officer. He goes and has to pick this person up. He has to take them back to the police station, book them and make sure they're in there.

[1005]

So we're looking at close to a two-hour situation for dealing with a drunk, for lack of better words — an intoxicated person, whether it's drugs and/or alcohol. This is where we've said to IHA: "If this is a disease that these people have" — because they're repetitive, a lot of them — "then we need some help from you." So we're now going to bill them — we've sent a letter to them — for the cost of this policing, to do this.

We need these policing resources. We can't have an officer going over to the park to get an intoxicated person and bring them back and take care of them when we've got the highest crime rate in the province. We need some help in that area. So IHA has responded accordingly. One of the things that they say is: "You've got detox facilities, money, in your budget for the help." We are working with them.

But the problem is that we don't have detox facilities here. The closest one is Kamloops. It's voluntary. You put somebody on the bus, they get off at Cache Creek, they get high or drunk again, and they come back. That's exactly what happened. We need some facilities in this town. We're No. 1 in the province in crime, and the highest portion of that is due to alcohol and drugs.

The third thing I would just like to leave with you is the community court concept. I know Vancouver has their community court, which is great. I think it's a great concept. We've also put our name forward to make Williams Lake a trial base for a smaller community court concept. I realize you can't have the full concept. We know that. But we can put the facilities in place where we can have the social workers, the parole officers, the city, etc., be involved so that when they're in court, we can handle it. We can take them and say, "Here's what you've got do," and get them the resources that they need to help them.

Part of this prolific offender program, part of the community court, isn't just to keep them in jail. I know that. We know it's to start meeting some of the needs that they have. Again, we have no money for that. We're a small community. We're tight enough trying to operate our budget. We had a 4 percent tax increase this last year, projected 5 percent next year. Two officers would add 3 percent. And it's not that the city hasn't done that.

Last year we took $250,000 out of our surplus money to give to additional policing costs. This year, for September to December, we've freed up, out of surplus funds…. We've taken $40,000 extra and given it to the police to use for extra manpower for that — again, keeping in mind that that 40 is going to be half a percent tax increase for our residents. I just wanted to leave you, if I could, with those concepts.

Just getting back to that hub city idea of where everything is in the surrounding areas…. It isn't a factor, and I think it needs to be taken into consideration. If you've got Vancouver and Burnaby, sure they go to and from, but they go to and from equally. People from Vancouver go to Burnaby to commit crime; people from Burnaby go to Vancouver to commit crime. Not here. They come to Williams Lake to commit crime.

The final emphasis that I may have is those impact statements. The people in our town, in general, do not feel safe, and they're expressing it now. We've got a couple of hundred impact statements. The idea of those impact statements, by the way, is to put them with the prolific offender program, to put with the case that goes forward to the Crown counsel, which then goes to the judge, because the judge is compelled to read everything that is put in front of him. So we're going to put them there so that everyone is aware of the effect that they're having on the citizens of our town.

So I thank you very much for your time.

R. Hawes (Chair): It's supposed to be five minutes. We let you go for…. But you've made a very compelling case, so thank you.

With that, are there any other open-mike presentations? Hearing none, we'll adjourn this meeting.

We will be reconvening in Kamloops later this afternoon. Those of you who wish to come to Kamloops to hear the presentations there would be most welcome.

The committee adjourned at 10:09 a.m.

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