2008 Legislative Session: Fourth Session, 38th Parliament

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

MINUTES AND HANSARD

MINUTES SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

Tuesday, September 16, 2008

9 a.m.

Community Room, Riverlodge Recreation Centre

654 Columbia Avenue West, Kitimat, B.C.

Present: Randy Hawes, MLA (Chair); Bruce Ralston, MLA (Deputy Chair); Robin Austin, MLA; Dave S. Hayer, MLA; John Horgan, MLA; Richard T. Lee, MLA; John Rustad, MLA; Diane Thorne, MLA

Unavoidably Absent: Harry Bloy, MLA; John Yap, MLA

1. The Chair called the Committee to order at 9:12 a.m.

2. Opening statements by Randy Hawes, MLA, Chair.

3. The following witnesses appeared before the Committee and answered questions:

4. The Committee adjourned at 10:14 a.m. to the call of the Chair.

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.

The printed version remains the official version.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

select standing committee on
Finance and Government Services

Tuesday, September 16, 2008

Issue No. 73

ISSN 1499-4178

[ Page 1757 ]

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 16, 2008

The committee met at 9:12 a.m.

[R. Hawes in the chair.]

R. Hawes (Chair): Good morning. I'm Randy Hawes, and I'm the MLA for Maple Ridge–Mission. I'd like to welcome everyone that's here and thank you for taking time to participate in this, I know we all believe, very valuable exercise.

In preparing estimates for budget 2009, the Minister of Finance is required to release both a fiscal forecast and a budget consultation paper by September 15 of each year. The paper is required to provide a description of the major economic and policy assumptions underlying that fiscal forecast, as well as identify key issues that need to be addressed by the public in preparation for the next budget.

The Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services is charged with carrying out public consultations on the minister's behalf. This all-party committee is required to report back to the Legislative Assembly by not later than November 15.

If you'd like to review the consultation paper, there are a number of copies available over there on the information table at the registration desk. If you need information on how to make a presentation to the committee, that is available at www.leg.bc.ca/budgetconsultations.

As a reminder, any input that the committee receives in writing or in electronic form is given the same consideration as any oral presentations that might be made here today. Due to the recently announced federal election, we've also extended the time line for making submissions to Friday, October 24.

Today we're going to hear from some presenters who have preregistered with the Office of the Clerk of Committees. The presentations are in a 15-minute time frame. We hope what you'll try to do is take about ten minutes to make your presentation and give us about five minutes to ask questions. If you choose to use the whole 15-minute period presenting your statement, that's fine too. I'll let you know when you've reached about ten minutes, and I'll let you know when you're into 13 minutes and have two minutes left.

At the end of those presenters who have registered, there will be an open-mike period. Those who might wish to present through the open mike can register at the desk there, and you'll be given a five-minute presentation time.

I'll now ask the other members of the committee to introduce themselves, starting with MLA Horgan.

[0915]

J. Horgan: John Horgan. I'm the MLA for Malahat–Juan de Fuca, which is just outside of Victoria and just south of Duncan.

D. Thorne: Hi, I'm Diane Thorne. I'm the MLA for Coquitlam-Maillardville, which is a suburb of Vancouver, as most of you probably already know.

R. Austin: Hi, I'm Robin Austin, MLA for Skeena. It's nice to be home.

B. Ralston (Deputy Chair): Bruce Ralston, MLA for Surrey-Whalley and Deputy Chair of the committee.

J. Rustad: John Rustad, MLA for Prince George–Omineca and chair of our northern caucus.

D. Hayer: Good morning. I'm Dave Hayer, MLA for Surrey-Tynehead.

R. Lee: I'm Richard Lee, MLA for Burnaby North, which is just neighbouring Vancouver.

R. Hawes (Chair): Also joining us today…. I'm happy to introduce our Clerk, Kate Ryan-Lloyd. Also with us are Stephanie Hansen, who is on the registration desk, and the staff of Hansard Services, who are recording the proceedings here. That's Michael Baer and Polly Vaughan. They will be recording and then preparing a written transcript of today's hearing. As well, this is being broadcast live on the Internet.

With that, I'd like to call on William Franklin, our first presenter. Welcome.

Presentations

W. Franklin: Good morning. I'm Bill Franklin. I'm the coach of the Kitimat Boxing Club. I'm also a B.C. Winter Games boxing representative. My purpose today is funding for sports in B.C. in general and the B.C. Games, in specific.

Sports funding, compared to health and education, is extremely minor, which it should be. But we do spend money to try and develop sports. In an Olympic year when we don't win any medals until the seventh day, it is a topic that many people talk about. When the games are finished and we've won a few medals, we say congratulations to the athletes and then forget about it.

In 2008 Canada finished 19th with 18 medals. Australia finished sixth with 46 medals. In 1988 we had ten medals. Three of them were from boxing. Australia had 14. It shows an 80 percent increase in medal count for Canada versus 328 percent for Australia.

For the 2010 Olympics B.C. is spending a billion dollars, maybe more. You hear that funding for security alone is going to reach a billion. The venue costs for the 2010 Winter Games is supposed to be $580 million.

In 2010 the B.C. Winter Games are going to be in Terrace. Currently the B.C. Games Society operates on
[ Page 1758 ]
a budget of $2.5 million. From the B.C. Games Society webpage the following quotes are taken.

"The purpose of the B.C. Games can be captured in a single phrase: to provide an opportunity for the development of athletes, coaches and officials in preparation for higher levels of competition….

"To provide optimal opportunities to athletes, coaches and officials for growth and development within the current capacity of the B.C. Games Society and its host communities.

"The B.C. Games Society is committed to providing a sport, work and volunteer environment in which all individuals are treated with respect and dignity. Each individual has the right to participate and work in an environment which promotes equal opportunities and prohibits discriminatory practices."

Allow me to introduce three gentlemen.

Mike, Landon and Ben, can you stand up, please.

At the 2008 B.C. Winter Games in Cranbrook, these three gentlemen each won gold medals. The north won five gold medals. The north, our zone, stretches from Prince Rupert to Vanderhoof. Out of those five gold medals, four were boxing and three were from Kitimat.

Thank you, gentlemen.

[0920]

The two gentlemen with them, Matthew and Colton — can you gentlemen stand up.

It is their turn in 2010 to go to the 2010 B.C. Winter Games. They will not be given the right to participate or an equal opportunity to develop. Why? Because boxing is not in the Terrace 2010 B.C. Winter Games.

To participate in the 2008 B.C. Winter Games, there were eight zones, six boxers per zone. Two had to be female. There are not 16 competitive female boxers in B.C. We had to have 50 percent total participation. We failed.

From the beginning there was no way that we could make it, since a third of the criteria — the females — did not even exist. It's not to say that we're against females in boxing. I had three out on Tuesday night. I've had female participation in our club since it was founded 16 years ago. But not too many females want to be punched in the face.

Is this an environment which promotes equal opportunities with sports like hockey? The same criterion — i.e., female participation in boxing — is not in the Canada Winter Games, nor was it in the Alberta Winter Games.

I was told that we could appeal. Unfortunately, the gentleman who was to file the appeal suffered a stroke. When we found out that he had not filed an appeal, we were told it was too late, even though the games are 16 months away.

I was also told that even if we had appealed, it would have failed because we cannot appeal the criteria which caused the failure in the first place. We are being double-penalized, because since we are not in the B.C. Winter Games, we cannot be in the Northern B.C. Winter Games. Are we the only sport affected like this? Check with netball.

In summary, we ask the following: (1) increase the funding for the development of athletes in B.C.; (2) investigate how current funding is being spent and what measurable goals are being obtained; (3) and most important to us locally here, your help in getting boxing back in the 2010 Winter Games or funding for the travel, same as the Winter Games, for a replacement tournament, B.C. boxing junior novice championships.

We ask for your support. All we need you to do or ask you to do is pick up the phone, phone the B.C. Games Society and say: "What is going on here?" Robin has already done that, and I hope each and every one of you takes a minute. If you can't do that, at least have your office send an e-mail to find out why they've taken this road.

Are they wasting our money? Is it a bureaucratic mess that we're looking at? Are we just the tip of the iceberg?

You're in funding. You're responsible for the input to the B.C. government, and that's why we're asking for your assistance.

R. Hawes (Chair): Thank you very much. That was very eloquently presented.

R. Austin: Thank you, Bill. Thanks very much for the presentation. It's very nice to see so many young men come down here to show off their success.

It was interesting. When you talk about the recent Olympics, the very first medal…. I think all of Canada was really worried about the fact that in the first seven days a country this big and this wealthy didn't have any medals, and the first one to show up was from little old Hazelton, B.C. I think that just shows the importance of supporting local programs.

All too often, I think, the success of programs like the wrestling program out of Hazelton, B.C., is there because of — what? — one person, one great coach in a small community. Selling bottles and collecting bottles on the weekends is what financed that program. As soon as that coach retired, that was the end of the wrestling program in Hazelton.

So here you have 20 years of success, where they've actually sent people who have succeeded in the Olympics, and now the program is gone due to our lack of funding of sport. I think it is very, very important that we step aside from thinking that all government is here to do is to provide health care and education — obviously, the two most important parts of our social services — and realize that in order to have strong, healthy communities, we need to be doing a whole bunch of things other than just health care and education.

My question to you, Bill, would be: how much specifically…? What would your ask be, if your ideal…? In your dreams, what kind of increase would you like to see the Minister of Finance make in terms of adding dollars to amateur sport in British Columbia?
[ Page 1759 ]

Secondly, if you were to get that increase, what specifically do you think that each sport would do with it?

[0925]

W. Franklin: In terms of a specific amount of money, a percentage, I couldn't tell you, because I don't know how much overall they're currently spending. I don't know how much is being properly invested and properly spent. That's why I say: "Well, put in some measurable goals to see what is happening here."

In terms of where that money should be spent, for any sport that you go to, whether it's in B.C. or the rest of Canada, we have one major expense, and that's travel. We're a very large province. We're an extremely large country. So to fund people to go to tournaments, say, from here to Vancouver, airplane tickets are $600 return. How can I send three boys down? That's $1,800.

I have one other gentleman here that I'd like to introduce.

Dennis, can you stand up for a second.

Dennis is a three-time Canadian silver medallist from Kitimat. He has been to the Canadian championships three years. This gentleman here, if he'd had more training and more opportunity to compete, would have been in the Olympics. In my own personal belief, he would have walked through most of those people that were there.

For any sport to expand and exceed, it must face competition. The greatest barrier to competition in B.C. is the size of this country, of this province. The greatest barrier is transportation. If you were just to send some people from Vancouver to Vancouver Island, what's the cost of a return ferry ticket nowadays?

For an organization like us, we have a budget of $3,000 a year, which we raise by bottle sales and hot dogs and whatever. How do you fund transportation out of that? We work hard to do these things, and every sport is the same. I'm sure that every sport is facing that same challenge: transportation.

R. Lee: Thank you for the presentation. Supporting local sports facilities and also participation is very important. Personally, I believe that very much. My kid is in table tennis. She participated in the Winter Games just a few months ago.

I can see the passion from the parents and from the coaches that are requesting funding. As families, we face a lot of challenges to support our kids. I understand that. So I would like to see….

Have you contacted Sport B.C.? Sport B.C. is a provincial organization. Of course, you're probably one of the member organizations of that organization. So I think they could be your advocates for putting boxing back into the games.

In Burnaby we have a strong boxing club as well. So that sport really generates a lot of interest in different communities.

W. Franklin: I haven't contacted Sport B.C. I have had several e-mail exchanges with the B.C. Games Society. I spent 45 minutes on the phone with Kelly Mann, who is the CEO of the B.C. Games Society.

I try to deal on a reasonable one-to-one level first. When I don't succeed there or get what I would call a logical response, then I take it to the next level. In this particular instance, I asked Robin for his input — just to phone to find out what is going on. Now I'm asking you gentlemen for the same thing. I'm talking about a five-minute phone call just to say: "Hey, what is going on here?" If that doesn't have any effect and we don't get a logical response….

I know the first thing they're going to tell you is that we failed the criteria. When you ask them, "What were the criteria?" they say: "Participation." Well, what part of the criteria? You have to really keep at them, because they're not going to come out and tell you that it was a set-up right from the very beginning as far as we're all concerned. We were told we had to sign this to participate.

[0930]

In terms of the rest of B.C., they're all behind us. Our next step after this is that we're going to start a media campaign. We have a local reporter here today. Tomorrow there's a reporter in Prince George that's going to give us a hand. After that we've got a reporter in Vancouver that's going to come forward with this story. We're not going to go away. We want to be in the games — period. We ask your help.

R. Hawes (Chair): I'm sorry, but we've got a list of questioners, and we won't have time to get to them. So one question each.

J. Horgan: Thank you very much, Bill, for your presentation and, more importantly, for teaching these young men not only lessons in the ring and lessons in life around sport but also that if you run into a bureaucratic obstacle or an obstacle that you can overcome by perseverance…. You're demonstrating that again today.

Take note of that, lads. It's not just about saying, "I've had enough," and walking away. It's keeping at it until you achieve your goal.

I wanted to get you to expand a little bit on the second option for you. Should you not be able to be in the games in 2010, you suggested going to another venue. Where is that, and what's the governing body for that? You said it quickly, and I didn't write it down.

W. Franklin: Sure. It's an alternative tournament. In the Winter Games it is a novice B.C. championship. Boxing B.C. would then put on the B.C. boxing junior novice championships here in Kitimat. So we'd be looking for the cost of transportation for all our different athletes that qualify to come here, just the same as they would have done if they'd gone to the Winter Games. Put them on the same plane. I mean, it's no big deal, no extra expense that way.
[ Page 1760 ]

All we want to do is be able to have a tournament where we can get a whole pile of participants to it and not cost us an arm and a leg.

D. Hayer: Thank you very much for your presentation. When was this criteria set up that is stopping these two young boys from participating in boxing there? Do you know how long that's been on the books?

W. Franklin: Two years ago. I can't predict how many females are going to be in boxing six months from now, let alone two years from now.

R. Hawes (Chair): I also have a very quick question. The B.C. Games Society. Kelly Mann is the CEO. But are they autonomous, to a degree, or do they report to the minister?

W. Franklin: Eighty percent of their funding comes from the province of B.C.; 20 percent is corporate. They report to a board of directors — volunteers, two of whom reside here in the north. We will be contacting them.

I don't think there's any tie-in from the B.C. Games Society to Sport B.C.

R. Hawes (Chair): That's kind of where my question was. For example, VANOC, or the Olympics, is a completely separate body, and government has absolutely no influence — as you see with the women's ski-jumping, which has been a big issue. It makes no sense to many of us, yet the government hasn't got the ability to go into the IOC and influence that tremendously. This isn't the same kind of setup, though — is it?

W. Franklin: No. Here the absolute majority of funding comes from the province of B.C. It's taxpayer money.

R. Hawes (Chair): I think you've obviously made a compelling case, and I'm pretty sure you're going to find that your request will be for us to all be involved. I'm pretty sure you'll find that that will happen. Hopefully, we will achieve what you're asking for, because I think it's just equitable, and I think we all agree with that. So thank you for your presentation.

Our next presenters are the Terraceview Family Council, and it's Heather Reay and Dawna Ottenbreit.

I will tell you when it's ten minutes in your presentation, if you go that far. Then I'll tell you again, if you keep going, when you have two minutes left. But we'd love to have some time for questions.

D. Ottenbreit: Hi, I'd like to introduce myself. I'm Dawna Ottenbreit. I hope you'll forgive me. I left my glasses at home, so this could be a bit of a problem.

[0935]

H. Reay: I'm Heather Reay.

Dear Mr. Hawes and committee members, thank you for the opportunity to make a written and oral presentation to your committee. We represent the Terraceview Family Council, whose mission is to promote the quality of life, service, education, health and safety for the residents of Terraceview Lodge.

Membership is open to all family members, friends of residents and those who reside in the lodge. As a group, we work to address issues of concern and provide a structure so that family and friends can participate in decisions to help meet residents' needs. We offer a voice to address administration or government when advocacy is required.

This council made a written submission to the Northern Health Authority board on July 17. In this submission we cited incidents of aggression, staff multi-tasking, lack of supervision for periods of up to 20 minutes in the common area and residents soiling themselves because staff were busy elsewhere. We wrote on the issue of dignity and loss of same.

D. Ottenbreit: Family Council feels that lack of adequate staffing is the major concern and believes that if this issue is addressed, many of the problems brought forward would be resolved.

Whereas current members of our council are actively advocating for higher ratios of direct staff care per resident, staffing levels are by no means a recent concern. They were identified as problematic since the inception of said council and recorded in minutes dating back as early as October 2, 2003.

At a sponsor meeting on March 29, 2004, and confirmed May 10, 2004, the recommendation was made to begin setting targets in Northern Health Authority for complex care clients at a baseline of 2.8 hours of care per resident-day. It is now September 16, 2008. Four years have passed, and what was intended to be a baseline target has become the benchmark and appears to be, on the whole, the provincial norm, a norm that Northern Health has apparently been meeting.

H. Reay: In our opinion, based on personal experiences with our loved ones, observing other residents of Terraceview Lodge and in attempting to address the volume of concerns brought before council, we find it irrelevant that the prescribed provincial level of care is being met if the results are unsatisfactory. Unsatisfactory results only serve to prove that the present 2.8 benchmark is wholly inadequate.

According to the Prince George Free Press, the Prince George Council of Seniors said family members of seniors living in care facilities have come to them with similar concerns, such as residents and family members being intimidated by residents, lack of staff to help feed residents and residents being put in diapers because there is no staff to toilet them.
[ Page 1761 ]

D. Ottenbreit: Art Kube, president of the Council of Senior Citizens Organizations of B.C., COSCO, made up of more than 75 seniors organizations, also speaks of receiving numerous complaints regarding staffing levels, cleanliness, quality of service, and advocates for approximately 3.5 hours of care per resident-day.

An investigation into seniors' complaints has been launched by Ombudsman Kim Carter, and our council sent a copy of the presentation we made to Northern Health to the Ombudsman in support of those seniors who have come forward. We also sent a copy to Art Kube at COSCO.

H. Reay: We wish it to be a matter of record that the staff involved in caring for our residents are held in the highest esteem by family and council members. They are hard-working, caring individuals that deserve respect and cannot be faulted in the care they provide our loved ones. Unfortunately, they only have two hands and can only be in one place at a time. There just simply are not enough of these dedicated individuals.

In our presentation on July 17 we questioned Northern Health's spending more on corporate expenditures than on health care for residential care and asked the board to revisit the budget mix, adjust their ratio of spending in accordance with other health authorities and readjust the current 2.8 direct staff-to-resident ratio to a minimum of 3.24 or higher.

[0940]

A meeting with Val Waymark, acting area director of home and community care, and Al Martin, acting chief operating officer, has been scheduled for September 23 to discuss the issues we brought forward before the Northern Health Authority board. We remain confident that positive solutions will be forthcoming.

D. Ottenbreit: In a press release published August 14, Health Minister George Abbott announced that Northern Health will receive a portion of $120 million in additional one-time funding for 2008. The Northern Health chief operating officer for the northern Interior, Michael McMillan, said: "It will likely go into one of our priority areas. There is always pressure on our surgical programs, and seniors care is an area of pressure."

Sometimes it's difficult to keep the pressure on and advocate on behalf of our loved ones and those who have lost the ability to speak for themselves. Others tell us that we are wasting our time, that no one cares, that no one is listening.

We hope that all of you are listening. Tomorrow it could be your mother, your father, your spouse, totally helpless, confined in a chair with a broken hip, diapered or your loved one, a mind lost to dementia, reaching out to you, his or her face reflecting puzzlement and fear.

H. Reay: On September 12 the government of B.C. announced a billion-dollar surplus, and we advocate for a higher ratio of staff in order that our residents can have more than one scheduled bath a week, so that our dementia patients and those confined in chairs can be taken outside and enjoy the fresh air, so that the staff have the opportunity to sit and spend a little time interacting with those who have contributed so richly to our province.

D. Ottenbreit: On behalf of the residents of Terraceview Lodge and other seniors in the province, Terraceview Family Council would like to request the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services recommend that an increase in funding to provide a 3.5-staff-to-resident level of care become a standing priority in the upcoming budget.

R. Hawes (Chair): Thank you for your presentation.

J. Horgan: Thank you very much for the presentation, Dawna and Heather. I believe we had a similar presentation last year in Terrace. Or was it the year before? We never know where we are from day to day. But I do recall very much hearing this presentation before.

I'm wondering if you've had direct contact with any staff in the Ombudsman's office, or have you just made your submission? Have they responded? Are they going to be looking at Terraceview as an example?

D. Ottenbreit: We sent our submission — the part that we presented to you today — along with a letter stating that we would be glad to add any further information and join in with them and bring forward the concerns that have been brought particularly to our council.

Yes, we're more than willing to join in with the Ombudsman, because we see it as a very, very serious problem.

H. Reay: We haven't had any direct contact with them yet.

J. Horgan: Well, I encourage you to be persistent with that so that they'll…. Quite often within the system it's easier for staff to address issues in the Lower Mainland or Victoria. Getting into the broader context is a challenge, but if you're persistent, as Bill demonstrated, quite often you can get some action. So I encourage you to keep doing that.

D. Ottenbreit: We'd like to see the northern part of the province even recognized. It appears like northwestern B.C. in particular…. We appear to be kind of the forgotten north, and we want to be caught up in this and become part of the solution.

R. Hawes (Chair): I just wanted to ask you…. First, you mentioned in here that you want the Northern
[ Page 1762 ]
Health Authority to move to the same kind of ratios that other health authorities have, or at least put the same proportion of money in. I'm just wondering, because I'm not familiar with what the ratios are in other parts of the province. Are other parts of the province up to the 3.5 that you're looking for rather than the 2.8 you have now?

D. Ottenbreit: There is one health authority that has moved in the direction of 3.5, and they're implementing that right now because they recognize that the level of care is just not sufficient at 2.8. They're in the process. I believe it's…. Is it Fraser Health Authority? Excuse me for being a little bit behind here.

H. Reay: I think I gave it in your package.

R. Hawes (Chair): And it may well be in here.

[0945]

D. Ottenbreit: That's basically in our submission that we gave to you. We gave you a copy of our original submission, which we did make here this summer to the Northern Health board in July. It states in there — where we do a comparison study, for example, of the five health authority boards — at the end of our submission that what we would like would be…. If you compare it to Vancouver Island Health Authority…. We suggest they follow Vancouver Island Health Authority's lead and readjust the current 2.8 level to a minimum of 3.24 or higher.

R. Hawes (Chair): Like John, then, I'll just ask a quick supplementary question. I'll very quickly preface it by saying that I'm not the youngest guy here, so I remember back a little ways when we used to have candystriper programs in all of the health facilities.

Is there a volunteer program? I see in here that you're talking about things like taking patients outside so that they can sit in the sunlight, or even the feeding program. Years ago it used to be that volunteers would come in and look after that. Have we moved to the place now everywhere where we're saying that we have to have paid staff to do that, or do you have a volunteer program?

D. Ottenbreit: There are a few.

H. Reay: We do, but it's basically the families that are doing the feeding.

R. Hawes (Chair): So there isn't, like, a candystriper program, which to a big degree was kids from school that would come in and do volunteer hours.

H. Reay: The unions nixed the candystripers. They felt they were taking a job away from their employees.

D. Thorne: I'm just wondering if you have any information around the investigation that Ombudsman Kim Carter is doing. Is one of her goals to try and force or suggest regulation of staff ratios across the province?

D. Ottenbreit: I would hope so, because basically the 2.8 level is recommended by the government, and everybody says: "Oh, we're meeting the 2.8 ratio." But the point is that it's not sufficient. I mean, it could be five, and if five isn't sufficient, then maybe it better be six if they're meeting this level.

I think what we're interested in asking the government, as well, is…. When the government hands out this money to the health authorities, for example — we have an issue here too — we would like to see the government say: "Look, this is how you're going to cut the pie up. So much is going to go to acute care spending, etc." Whereas we're finding in Northern Health…. This is one question we're really looking for answers for.

Northern Health Authority, for example, spends way more on what they call corporate expenditures — I'm sorry that I don't know the breakdown, and I never would understand it — versus the actual residential care spending. They spend to the tune of $22 million more on corporate. They are the only health authority that does this. Everyone else, if they're spending…. Some might get a lot more money, but basically, in their breakdown they don't spend more on corporate versus….

We would personally like to see the government even say: "Look. Here's your funding, but this is the portion that has to go into acute and has to go into residential and this sort of thing, and then you worry about how you fund your corporate offices."

D. Thorne: So you would prefer — and I'm assuming that most people in your position across the province would probably prefer — that the health regions had a little less autonomy about how they cut up the pie and that some services are regulated or mandated by the province, and then you have discretionary funding that you can spend how you wish.

D. Ottenbreit: Right.

D. Thorne: Okay. Well, that's very interesting, because that's not the…. I mean, right at the moment I don't think that staff ratios are mandated at all. That's my understanding.

D. Ottenbreit: Well, they're kind of suggested.

D. Thorne: They're suggested, but they're not by law. You can follow or not. You choose. So you would like it.

D. Ottenbreit: Right, exactly. And unfortunately….
[ Page 1763 ]

R. Hawes (Chair): We're running…. In fact, we are over time, but because we've not got that many witnesses, if everybody's all right, we're going a little bit over.

[0950]

J. Rustad: First of all, I just want to say thank you very much for your presentation. I have two parents that are both, at this stage, still healthy, although my dad had a stroke this summer, but he's recovering well. The day is coming when they will need care as well. So there's no question that that level of service and level of care is something that is on my mind, as well, in terms of being able to provide those services for seniors.

I just have a couple of quick questions. First is: the facility — has it been upgraded recently? A number of years ago the facilities used to be designed to be four seniors in a room. There was very little privacy and very little opportunity for family interaction in a private setting. I know that we've changed those standards. We're trying to get single rooms for seniors. We've done a massive number of upgrades around the province as well as some additions to that. So I'm just wondering about the status of that facility.

The second thing is that you mentioned there's the challenge with the volunteer program. I'm just wondering if there are any job vacancies currently that Northern Health may be having a challenge filling. One of the biggest challenges that we have with staffing across the province — in Northern Health, as well — is being able to get trained professionals in jobs, particularly nurses. And so there are a lot of people doing overtime.

There are real challenges there around staffing, because quite frankly, we have a bit of a labour shortage and some challenges there. So I'm just wondering if there are any vacancies or openings around staffing currently at the facility and whether or not the facility has gone through any upgrades or what the status is with regards to single room versus multiple rooms.

H. Reay: My husband actually is in the extended care ward, and those rooms are two beds or four beds. So there's no privacy there. The west wing has single rooms, and the special care unit has single rooms.

D. Ottenbreit: Our facility is presently…. An addition is being built onto it, and we will be housing 17 more residents in total after it's completed. But we will still apparently be using quite a portion of the old facility. Just exactly what, we don't know at this time.

It is crowding. It's four in a room. Some of them are two in a room. The special care unit, of course, has one in a room. You probably couldn't put more than one in a room, because they can become very aggressive and should have a lot more supervision because of their dementia.

J. Rustad: She didn't answer just one question, which was around the staffing level. I wasn't sure whether or not there are any current vacancies and whether they have any challenges filling those vacancies.

D. Ottenbreit: Yes.

H. Reay: They have lots of challenges keeping staff, because there's so much shortage there that a lot of times they're doing overtime. The nurses are getting burned out.

J. Rustad: The reason why I asked that is just…. The challenge is getting people to fill the positions that we have. Increasing positions if there aren't people to fill them is even more of a challenge. That's why the volunteer program can be such a benefit.

R. Hawes (Chair): At this point, though, we have gone significantly over. I think we do have one more presenter.

Your presentation is well received. Certainly, we'll be reading with interest the comparisons, particularly with the other health authorities. Thank you very much for the time you've taken and for caring.

The next presenter is Diane Dessureault.

Diane, I don't know if you're presenting on behalf of an organization or if it's a….

D. Dessureault: I would say about an organization.

First of all, I apologize. I didn't make any official paper presentation.

R. Hawes (Chair): That's fine. You have 15 minutes, and I'll tell you when you're at ten, unless we've started the questions. Then if you leave time for questions, that would be a good thing.

D. Dessureault: I'll present myself. I am Diane Dessureault, and I am the executive director of the francophone association. We are located here in Kitimat.

[0955]

My concern here is more about education. It's not because I have children at school — I don't have any children — but because as a francophone association…. When there are newcomers coming into town, they may come to our office. They ask about day care. They ask about schooling.

The schooling here…. We have plenty of schools; that's good. But about the day care, we have a lack of it. Because you are in government, you know how long it is before we can have a new day care and all the red tape we have to pass through. I do agree that it needs to be done, because we want to have something that's safe for the children and good for the younger women.

I have other questions. I heard, and it's probably true, that provincial education wants to take care of
[ Page 1764 ]
the children starting at the age of three years old. If it's so, it's important for someone like us, the AFFNO, which wants to open a day care. Is it worth it to open a day care if the education system is going to take care of the children at the age of three?

If they take care of the children at the age of three, what time lapse are you expecting to do that? Is it in 2020, or is it 2010?

Also, it would be interesting for all the owners of day cares to know what is going to happen with their facilities. I'm on the ball to open a day care, and I'm telling you that it will cost at least $80,000, close to $100,000, just to make it suitable for the standards of the health department.

That is my concern, and I'm here to ask about it. Can I add something else?

R. Hawes (Chair): Oh yeah, sure.

D. Dessureault: I know that starting next year a lot of Service Canada services will be transferred to the province. A big part of the francophone association…. We have a lot of services at Service Canada for francophones. Are you going to give the same services for the francophones?

I know that British Columbia is not a bilingual province, but the services that we get are essential for us, and it's another of my big concerns. Like when we need an employee, I go to Service Canada, and I ask for a francophone. Sometimes I get it; sometimes I don't. But all the service I have is in French. That's my concern.

R. Hawes (Chair): Okay. If I might, then, I'll try to answer the first part of your question myself, and then others can say what they wish to say.

The Minister of Education has said that they are going to try some pilot programs, first with full-time five-year-olds' kindergarten and then extending to take a look at four-year-olds and possibly to three-year-olds. There is no commitment that they're going to roll out a three-year-olds' kindergarten program across the province. It's a pilot project to see if it's workable. I know there are lots of parents who don't think that three-year-olds' kindergarten is the right thing. I don't know if it would be a playschool, or I'm not sure exactly….

This is a concept that I think is going to be tried, but it's going to be tried first with five-year-olds and then with four-year-olds and on a pilot project basis. So there is no plan today to roll that out right across the province or dates set. As they try the pilot project, they'll see if it works. If it works and if it's feasible, then it will be extended. I guess that's the only thing I can tell you.

In terms of day care and competing with day care, I don't personally think that you would have anything to worry about, because I think you're talking many years down the road, you know, before it will be right across the entire province, if indeed it ever goes there — for three-year-olds, certainly.

D. Dessureault: The pilot project — when will it start?

R. Hawes (Chair): I think they are going to start right now with the five-year-olds, this year.

D. Dessureault: Right now?

R. Hawes (Chair): But not right across British Columbia. In some select parts of British Columbia, and I'm not sure where they are yet.

D. Dessureault: You don't know in which part of the province you are going to start it.

R. Hawes (Chair): I personally don't. Perhaps somebody else has an idea, but I don't.

[1000]

J. Rustad: Thank you for raising your concern, actually, with regards to that. I know that the concept of the age three and four, as well as all-day kindergarten, is being fairly well received and that lots of people are interested in that.

One of the impacts I had not considered was what issues that may have for day care providers — whether that changes the scope of the pre-, post- or all-day. But if I'm correct, I think we're looking at the all-day kindergarten right away in terms of the pilot rolling out, and if that works, implementing. Then I believe that there are dates in terms of feasibility studies to be completed and back to government for looking at age four and then looking at age three. I think that's two and four years out or something like that — 2010-2012, somewhere in those ranges.

Once that feasibility comes in to government, then a plan would be developed, if it's going to be going ahead. We don't know what the price would be. We don't know what the issues may be. We don't know if we have the space available, what the capital costs would be, etc.

There are a whole bunch of questions that need to be answered, and so what's happening is that there are some tests going on. There's some feasibility work that will be done. Once we have that information back in, then a decision can be made as to whether or not it should be implemented.

D. Dessureault: And you don't know which region you choose for a pilot?

J. Rustad: No. At this stage I'm not sure where the pilots are running in the province.

J. Horgan: Thank you very much, Diane. We rarely divide on this committee on partisan lines, but what I've been hearing is counter to what John just said.

People in my community that I've reached out to in the child care sector and in K-to-12 are concerned, as you
[ Page 1765 ]
are, that processes are not yet fleshed out. Statements are made. Pilot projects are announced but not designated, so it does lead to confusion.

I'm sure John and other members are hearing that confusion as well. You've articulated it very well today. But certainly, again, from my corner of the universe, where I represent people like you, they are just forging ahead because there is such a demand in the community. Regardless of what government, whatever stripe, comes up with, there's a need for child care spaces to meet the demands of growing families.

So my advice, for what it's worth, which is absolutely nothing, is that you should proceed at a pace because there will be people lining up at your door.

D. Dessureault: So go and do it.

R. Hawes (Chair): If I could, I should say too that the ministry of childhood development, I think, continues to expand the funding for day care spaces and recently announced capital programs for assistance to people who are building day care facilities. So it's not operating like: "Let's close down one sector and open it somewhere else." That's not what's going on.

D. Dessureault: If the project doesn't work, have you ever thought about doing universal child care like they do back east? For the family, they pay so much per week instead of so much per day. Is it in your plan? Because there are lots of single parents that need it too.

R. Hawes (Chair): I guess the only thing I'd say is that the committee hears your input. I only want to give you what we know, or hopefully know, about the program you asked about. Normally, I think, we're not providing the answers. We're asking you for what you think should happen, and I hope you'll provide us with that.

D. Dessureault: Okay, what I think should happen is that I think you should consider it. You should implant universal child care here in British Columbia for the families with only one parent. It could be the husband or the wife or whatever. It should be implanted here because it's a need.

J. Horgan: Just so that you're clear, Diane, could I just add on that your presentation has been very valuable, because I think all of us…. When the announcement was made that we were going to try and use underutilized space in schools as enrolment went down, trying to address the need for day care spaces for families, everyone said: "That sounds like a good idea."

The devil is always in the detail, and you've provided us with a service by saying: "Have you thought…?" I certainly had not thought about how that's going to affect entrepreneurs who are looking at starting up a day care. "What's my future if government is going to take that space?" I just want to thank you for making that, because I had not heard that or thought about it until today.

D. Hayer: Some of my constituents bring the same issue of who is providing the day care, and I was able to get in touch with the Ministry of Education, which is looking at it, and they had some responses. They were going to hold another meeting, and they decided not to.

[1005]

The ministry also had a time line. We were trying to get input from the day care providers and the public to see what the issues are, what their concerns are and what guidance they would have for government.

Another thing I do know from sitting on this committee in the past…. Since this is in Hansard and Hansard is monitored by different ministries, if you have left your number or your contact information, somebody from the ministry can probably provide you with some more direct information, rather than us trying to say: "We don't really know." We're trying to guess — right? So whatever the update is, you can get that information directly.

D. Dessureault: Thank you for listening.

R. Hawes (Chair): John had something, and then I wanted to ask for some clarification on the second part of your presentation. It's not something that I am at all familiar with — the transfer of services from Service Canada to the B.C. government. I have never heard of this before, so I don't know anything about it. Maybe you could expand on that a little bit.

D. Dessureault: I will.

J. Rustad: Actually, I think I have heard something about that before, but I haven't seen anything official with regards to how that will work.

However, to the issue — and I can't believe that John and I actually agree on an issue, which is quite interesting — which is just the comment about the impact on day care with regards to the programming. One of the things that's valuable and that my colleague Dave here has mentioned is that, through this process, there may be an opportunity to get direct contact with you and some information.

What I would highly recommend is for you to actually put this information in writing and send it to the Minister of Education. Part of the review process that is going on, on this is actually also looking for input into what people think about the programs and what some of the issues or impacts may be. So your information that you provide through would be invaluable to them, as they will try to work through some of the issues. I'd highly recommend getting something in writing to them.

D. Dessureault: I will.
[ Page 1766 ]

R. Hawes (Chair): In terms of the Service Canada issue, I'm not sure which services are being transferred to the British Columbia government, if any.

Interjection.

R. Hawes (Chair): My colleague is saying that to his knowledge, it's settlement services and some of the immigration issues.

D. Dessureault: It's immigration and employment too, because now, today, we have a program given by Service Canada. A person at Service Canada told me: "You know that by next year you won't have it anymore." I said okay.

R. Hawes (Chair): So your advice to the committee is to ensure that any services taken over by the British Columbia government from Service Canada continue to be bilingual services. Any services that are today bilingual should be bilingual tomorrow.

D. Dessureault: Exactly.

R. Hawes (Chair): Or trilingual or multilingual.

D. Dessureault: Whatever — French and English.

R. Hawes (Chair): Thank you.

In the absence of any further witnesses today at this meeting, we'll adjourn the meeting. We will be reconvening….

Interjection.

R. Hawes (Chair): Oh, we do have an open-mike period.

Interjection.

R. Hawes (Chair): If you want to come and maybe give us your name.

R. Almer: My name is Rachel Almer, and I have lived in the northern part of the province for, I guess, 25 years or more. I have worked with the Northern Health Authority as a psychiatric nurse in Mills Memorial Hospital. They have a psychiatric facility there.

I didn't come specifically to talk about that, but I would like to add something to what the ladies presented earlier. You asked about nursing and if there are positions open for nurses.

I'm not too sure right now exactly what the Northern Health Authority has available, but when you work for a health authority, you have to have a licence. You have to be up to date with your registration, which means you have to have all the things that go along with that. Nursing has changed a great deal from the times when I trained and when I was active in the nursing field. You have to have many things, including computer skills now, to do any type of nursing position.

[1010]

In order to get a job, if you apply with the health authority, you have to show them that you have all these things, which makes it more difficult to get trained nurses into the facilities. You did mention about the volunteer programs, but one thing that I've noticed quite a lot lately is that a lot of work is being done by volunteers in our community. The volunteers have put in a great deal of time. They have put not only their time but their money into getting themselves around so that they could do the volunteer work.

I'm of the opinion that the Ministry of Health does not fully recognize the contribution that they are giving to this and that oftentimes they're doing the work that the trained nursing professionals should be doing. But because the nursing professionals now are required to do more and there are less of them in the facilities, a lot of their time is taken up with doing all of the record-taking jobs that keep them away from the actual patient and staff contact.

We have LPNs, which are licensed practical nurses. They have to do a program, as well, and get their licence and registration to be able to work in these facilities.

Meanwhile you do have a lot of volunteers coming in. You have family members coming in, and they are finding it more and more stressful that there is not the staff available to give the care to their loved ones. Quite frankly, untrained volunteers really shouldn't be doing a lot of those jobs. They shouldn't be having to lift people and help toilet them. Some things — maybe the feeding — are okay, but there are other jobs that you really need one or two nursing staff there to do with people.

I guess what I would like to say is that that is just one of the reasons why there is a problem in recruiting nurses. The other factor, of course, is that a lot of nurses are just simply burned out. They have put in years and years of hard work. They're getting older. They're very dedicated. But still, they are going to be retiring soon, and you need a new body of trained professionals to come in to do the work.

R. Hawes (Chair): Can I ask you if you are aware of…? I know there are now some new nursing seats to train new nurses in the north so that, hopefully, they'll stay in the north. Is Kitimat one of the areas that has more difficulty attracting newly graduated nurses than, say, Prince George or even Terrace?

R. Almer: The remoter areas are always harder to recruit people in and to keep them for long periods of time, unless they have family there already and are
[ Page 1767 ]
prepared to settle down in that area. But a lot of young people are going to be moving around.

The thing is that I think you need your older people in there too — the ones that have trained and have worked for a number of years. They can help to train the younger nurses that come in. Their training, I suppose, is very good, but when they come into the wards and have had no previous experience…. You do need a body of nurses there who have a lot of experience, and they will be the ones retiring very soon.

R. Hawes (Chair): Okay. There are usually no questions at open mike, but I just wanted to know if Kitimat was having some difficulty compared to other northern communities.

R. Almer: I don't know about the Kitimat Hospital. I could check it out. But I know that in Terrace we have that problem. It's a big one. As they say, they think they have filled the quota, but it does not mean they're giving the best care they can to the patients that come in.

I hope you will take that into account, because I know it's a problem in all the other health authorities in the province as well.

R. Hawes (Chair): Thank you.

Seeing no other presenters, we'll adjourn the meeting. We are reconvening this afternoon in Smithers.

The committee adjourned at 10:14 a.m.

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