Finance and Government Services — Issue No. 49 — Tuesday, September 18, 2007 (HTML)

2007 Legislative Session: Third Session, 38th Parliament
SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
MINUTES AND HANSARD

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON
FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES



CONTENTS

		Page

Presentations		1135
	M. Boreen
	C. Oakes
	N. Bello
	P. Colbourne
	D. Legere
	B. Heinzelman
	S. MacNeill
	M. Glassford
	D. Larsen
	E. Coleman
	L. Townsend
	R. Hay
	J. Savage
	L. Lebrun
	J. Cameron
	Y. Lebrun
	K. Goring

Chair:	* Bill Bennett (East Kootenay L)
Deputy Chair:	* Bruce Ralston (Surrey-Whalley NDP)
Members:	* Iain Black (Port Moody–Westwood L) Harry Bloy (Burquitlam L) * Randy Hawes (Maple Ridge–Mission L) * Dave S. Hayer (Surrey-Tynehead L) Richard T. Lee (Burnaby North L) * John Horgan (Malahat–Juan de Fuca NDP) * Jenny Wai Ching Kwan (Vancouver–Mount Pleasant NDP) * Bob Simpson (Cariboo North NDP) * denotes member present

Witnesses:

Nate Bello (Mayor, City of Quesnel)
Michael Boreen (Quesnel and District Chamber of Commerce)
John Cameron (Lebrun Ranch Ltd.)
Pat Colbourne (Executive Director, New Focus Society)
Ed Coleman (North Cariboo Post-Secondary Education Trades and Training Council
Mary Glassford (North Cariboo Post-Secondary Education Trades and Training Council)
Kameron Goring
Robin Hay (Multi-Centre Task Force)
Bernice Heinzelman (Quesnel and District Community Arts Council)
Doug Larsen (North Cariboo Post-Secondary Education Trades and Training Council)
Leo Lebrun (Lebrun Ranch Ltd.)
Yvonne Lebrun (Lebrun Ranch Ltd.)
Donna Legere (Quesnel Child Care Resource and Referral Program)
Susan MacNeill (Seniors Advocacy Service)
Coralee Oakes (Quesnel and District Chamber of Commerce)
Jim Savage (Executive Director, Quesnel Community and Economic Development Corporation)
Lorna Townsend (Chair, Museum and Heritage Commission)

B. Bennett (Chair): Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Finance Committee's hearing here in Quesnel. Formerly we were called the legislative committee on Finance and Government Services. I'm still trying to remember that, because I'm the new Chair of that committee and this is only our second meeting. We were in Prince George this morning. We appreciate your taking the time to come out, everyone who's here today, to present to the committee.

The purpose of our committee is to try and elicit as much commentary and feedback from the people of the province as we can through this process and also through some other processes, including on-line commentaries and written presentations, to give the government some advice, essentially, on what we should do with our next budget, our 2008-2009 budget. That's why we're here, and I expect that you're going to tell us how we should manage our budget. Of course, this is called the budget consultation process.

What I'd like to do to start, if we can just take a minute, is have the members of the committee introduce themselves. Perhaps this time I'll start with you, Randy, and we'll just go around.

B. Simpson: Bob Simpson, MLA for Cariboo North. Welcome to the Finance Committee to one of my communities.

B. Bennett (Chair): I'm Bill Bennett. I'm the MLA for East Kootenay and Chair of the committee.

B. Ralston (Deputy Chair): Bruce Ralston. I'm the MLA for Surrey-Whalley and vice-Chair of the committee.

B. Bennett (Chair): Our first witness today is the Quesnel and District Chamber of Commerce. Is it Mike and Coralee?

M. Boreen: Good afternoon, Mr. Chairperson, lady and gentlemen. My name is Mike Boreen. I'm here representing the Quesnel and District Chamber of Commerce. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to present our comments and suggestions regarding the budget and the financial plans for British Columbia. I've provided you with the documents for your review.

We consider this consultation process important. Budgets brought down by governments are not just about bottom lines. They must include an element of sensitivity to the underlying effects that they have on people. Budgets may also reflect the views and values of the society that they affect. Our members appreciate your allowing us the opportunity to provide our input.

In general terms, our key priorities for government are (1) to grow the economy, (2) to lower the tax burden on business, (3) to strive for an efficient and cost-effective service delivery and (4) to contain spending. These general priorities notwithstanding, I'd like to take this opportunity to provide some perspective on the following issues.

Environmental issues. This year's consultation paper has suggested environmental issues as one of the main themes of this coming budget. We would like to encourage the government and the Legislature to look for environmental issues that are linked to immediate health concerns of our citizens.

Air pollution, through high emissions of fine particulates, has an immediate and negative impact on the health of the population. Water pollution also, through insufficient treatment of wastewater before it's discharged back into streams and oceans, has health implications. We call on the public officials not to lose focus on our direct and immediate environmental issues, although keeping in mind environmental warming.

Health care issues. Despite high levels of funding our health care system is still struggling to keep up with patient care needs. We would like to suggest that the government look for opportunities to increase efficiencies in order to shift some of the resources that are spent on administrative services over to patient care services.

With a record number of people relocating to this community, we need to ensure that we have adequate health resources for all our residents. We feel that a northern cancer clinic can play a critical role in this. We require investment in more diagnostic equipment.

Operating capacity in northern communities is one of the ways to address this. To address our chronic shortage of doctors, the health care system must explore financial incentives for doctors and specialists who locate in northern communities.

Economic transition in this area. Over several decades communities in northern B.C. such as Quesnel have added significant economic wealth to British Columbia. The region's main economic driver, the forest sector, is about to undergo significant and dramatic changes for a number of reasons, including the catastrophic mountain pine beetle epidemic.

While a number of steps have been undertaken by government to help diversify the northern economies, we believe that these efforts should not only be continued but intensified in coming years. For example, we

believe the government can move farther by enlarging its role in the facilitation of public-private partnerships; creating new investment incentives, like special economic zones for the northern interior; and expanding technical R-and-D support and knowledge transfer to northern B.C.

Transportation infrastructure. If our communities are to continue to grow and diversify, we need to strengthen our transportation infrastructure. The Cariboo connector is a much-needed highway expansion project. With this link, the north will gain similar benefits to those the Okanagan Valley experienced by being connected through the Coquihalla Highway.

Quesnel urgently needs a truck route. All dangerous goods travel on Highway 97 adjacent to our hospital, main seniors housing and downtown commercial district. This is a major safety concern for our community.

We need a strong regional airport, and we encourage funding to assist with the expansion of the Prince George regional airport.

Quesnel has a real opportunity to diversify our economic reliance on forestry. We feel that tourism is one of the ways to do that. In Barkerville Historic Town statistics are up 15 percent this year. Rocky Mountain Vacations has invested considerably in Quesnel, with the announcement of two new tourism packages.

We believe that the Bowron road proposal linking our region with McBride would increase our tourism market share considerably. A strong transportation infrastructure with a circle route opportunity is needed for the success and expansion of all our tourism businesses.

A strong transportation infrastructure will offer alternatives to rail. We have heard from our members that they are concerned about the reliability and cost of CN Rail in getting their products such as pulp and plywood to market.

Skills shortage. It is critical to the success of our business community to have access to skilled labour. We need phase 2 of our college project, which focuses on trades training, to ensure the viability of our economic future.

B.C. should look at the possibility of working with the federal government to attract skilled immigrants to northern B.C. — immigrants who have advanced skill sets and value-added resource sector businesses. Such skilled people are highly relevant to the economies in northern British Columbia.

In conclusion, Quesnel recognizes challenges presented by the mountain pine beetle epidemic, but we are excited and optimistic about the future of our community. There is a short window for us to put our house in order, diversify our economy and plan for a bright future.

The government must provide an atmosphere where business can adapt and thrive. In this presentation we were pointing out a few things that we believe budget 2008 and beyond can help with. The Quesnel and District Chamber of Commerce continues to encourage you to collect and spend tax dollars wisely and prudently.

B. Bennett (Chair): Thank you very much, Mike. That was excellent. Thanks for getting through it like that. There was lots of detail there, and it was very interesting. We have members here who I'm sure will have some questions for you.

B. Simpson: Thanks, Mike and Coralee. As you guys know, we've had lots of discussions with the chamber over the last couple of years. Mike, what I want to focus on are some of the things that you've asked for — the truck route, some of the infrastructure issues, issues with CN, Gateway, all of that stuff.

I guess the issue is really: how do we get beyond communities having to come to senior levels of government pleading for them to pay attention to projects of interest to them or to projects that they think are critical?

How do we give communities the resources that they need to address those issues on a priority basis for them, not necessarily on a priority basis for federal or provincial programs? How do we flow those resources back so that communities have more control over their own issues?

M. Boreen: I think it is difficult to be able to put those funds back inside a community, where it is more…. The transportation infrastructure is more of a regional concern. That would be something that would probably be best dealt with at a regional level. Our concerns may not be the concerns of Williams Lake or Prince George, but such things as transportation will definitely affect all those areas.

C. Oakes: We do have a policy, put forward through the B.C. Chamber of Commerce, where one of the things identified was whether we could have an allocation of the stumpage fees that would be put back into our community and that we could allocate towards a transportation infrastructure.

I. Black: Just a couple of follow-up questions, if I could. I want to take the lead from MLA Simpson's remarks.

With respect to the transportation infrastructure comments that you made, I wanted to ask you about the Cariboo connector and the truck route through Quesnel. Do you have any sense of the quantification of that cost and that investment in terms of dollars?

C. Oakes: There have been several studies done. The most recent one, as far as the truck route…. It was several years ago that the numbers were put forward. Of course, as we all know, those numbers, every month that goes by, increase substantially. It is in the millions, so it is a significant investment.

However, you also need to recognize the contribution…. With the increase in the annual allowable cut and different things that are happening in the community, we need to adjust that accordingly. I think that investment needs to be made for the safety of the community as well as for the viability of our industry.

I. Black: I'm not disputing. I'm just trying to get my head around the numbers.

Also, if I may, Chair, I just have a second quick follow-up. I was curious about your remark on the economic transition piece, which was the first paragraph. You talked about expanding the technical R-and-D support and the knowledge transfer to northern B.C. Could you expand on that just a little bit and give us some examples of what you mean by that? I'm not sure what technical R-and-D support means.

C. Oakes: Something that we have recently been working on with the Highway 16-97 alliance is looking at industrial clusters and what that particularly looks like, whether it's in bioproducts, forest sector, agritourism. There are a lot of studies that demonstrate the strength of trying to look first at the research and development, utilizing the universities and applying that technology to assisting industrial clusters — to kind of get that step up and move forward.

D. Hayer: In some of the towns when they ask for truck routes or routes not interchanging through the middle of the businesses, all of a sudden all the cars start using the same route. Then they come back — in the past I've seen it — with: "Look. Now the traffic is not going through. It's affecting our business." Have they looked at that?

The second part is: how is the housing pricing? Has it increased? I remember that at one time they were saying the prices were really down. Are they up or down? Or are they the same? Also, can you find enough workers to fill all the jobs for local businesses?

M. Boreen: With respect to having a truck road and having potential tourist dollars pass by, it has been noted through some studies that when people do travel, they already have predetermined stopping points. Whether or not they're going through town will probably have an effect of siphoning off some dollars, but nothing, probably, that would be substantial.

As to the other issue of affordability for housing, I hear…. The 2006 census, as you know, has come out. It indicated Quesnel as being reduced in population. Since 2005 the economy here has turned around, which is a reflection of the annual allowable cut going up, along with some other incentives in the area. Housing prices have now rebounded quite substantially.

As for a skills shortage in this area, it's experienced everywhere in the province.

R. Hawes: I just wanted to hit for a second on your portion here on environmental issues. You mention air quality in here. I'd be interested to know what the air quality is here in Quesnel and what steps you think can be taken to improve it if there are problems in that regard.

Secondly, with respect to insufficient treatment of wastewater before it's discharged back into streams. I'm not sure what your wastewater treatment program in Quesnel is. Maybe you can just let us know what that is.

Lastly, infrastructure grants. I guess the mayor would be better to talk to about that — whether or not you've been successful in attracting infrastructure grant money, which is usually directed toward green projects.

C. Oakes: Actually, in Quesnel we're very proud to be a community that's been extremely successful with an air quality round table. It has been a model that has been used throughout the province.

We've got industry, we have representatives from the environmental community and the city of Quesnel, and we've put together a plan. Each year we measure both the 2.5 particulate matter and the ten particulate matter. We have been successful at reducing certain levels of particulate matter. We understand that if we can get in, in April and start doing the cleaning up of the dirt, it does make a significant difference. But we're still struggling with it. Whether it's wood-burning stove initiatives that we've been initiating in our community….

Air quality is a serious problem in communities. The way that we're situated, having the two rivers in the location with the city, does create problems with the communities such as Quesnel and Prince George.

We have a plan to move this forward. We have been successful with the implementation. For example, this year the beehive burners were a big thing that will be reduced in our community, but we do need support on that.

The water management program. We have two pulp mills in the community, so water management is extremely important to us. But we also know that industry partners such as Quesnel River Pulp have invested millions in our community to ensure that we're managing the effluents that are going into the river.

Communities need to be looking at their water quality. If you're looking at attracting people to your community, the things you need to look at are your air quality, water quality and, of course, your quality-of-life issues. So these are very forefront on our minds.

As far as infrastructure opportunities, I will, of course, put that forward to our mayor.

J. Kwan: On the environmental issues. Part of the prebudget consultation paper talks about the notion of a carbon tax. I wonder whether or not the chamber has a point of view about that. If you do, what is your point of view?

Second to that, the Prince George Chamber of Commerce presented to us this morning. They've actually expanded on the labour skills–shortage component and educational development piece to call for part of the direct surplus to be put into education as a way to attract students — either to eliminate or to reduce tuition for master-level students as one piece. The other one they talked about was creating increasing opportunities for students to pursue trades and trades opportunities and a training tax credit for businesses. I won't go into all the details of what they said.

I'm wondering: when you talk of phase 2 of our college program here, do you mean those components, or is there something else in that context with the labour skills shortage?

C. Oakes: Actually, we were on a conference call with Prince George this week. We work closely as a region. I think that if you're going to solve these issues, you need to be working collaboratively together.

For us, I think phase 2 of the college will tie more closely into the small business tax credits. As you know, whether it's a meat cutter or whether it's the industry trying to access a welder, phase 2 is critical to that. But we also need to support our small businesses in assisting their employees to access that training. I think that's where Prince George is more on the small business tax credits.

Of course, they have the university there. With the master's programs they are more specific to the university. We have a number of people from our community that are accessing UNBC and are gaining their master's.

J. Horgan: Thank you very much, Michael and Coralee, for your presentation. I have two questions. The first dovetails onto Jenny's question with respect to the CNC campus. I know that it's new, and I had the good fortune of touring it a couple of years ago — fantastic building. I'm wondering if you could give us a sense of how that piece of infrastructure is assisting in keeping kids in Quesnel, as opposed to moving to either Prince George or other locations, and what the inflow is of students from other jurisdictions, if you have that data.

The other is on the environmental question. You omitted a portion from your printed text, and you did that on a couple of occasions. I like to read along. It's like following a bouncing ball.

When it comes to the question of climate change, you highlight that some are concerned that perhaps too much emphasis is being put on that particular question, when you have particulate challenges, water emission challenges and so on in this area. Maybe you could expand on that. That's certainly the focus of government at almost every level. I know we'll have some questions for the mayor when he takes your chair.

The minister has explicitly asked us as a committee to canvass this issue, and you scooted by it. I was wondering why. There you go.

M. Boreen: Well, I believe we feel that even though climate change is something that is happening and something that is going to be quite significant in the meantime, we can't lose focus on what the immediate health concerns of the citizens really are. In the piece that you've handed out, the Lung Association has identified millions of deaths per year across Canada from air pollution, not only from small northern communities but from major urban environments.

As governments reallocate their resources, one of the priorities we see is that those health issues stay at the forefront. They are easily identified. They're quantified. Whereas, as you get along with global climate change, it's very difficult to see what the total overall effect is in raw numbers. The numbers are either very vague or hard to quantify.

J. Horgan: You've got significantly huge stands of deadwood that kind of quantify it for many.

With respect to CNC, is it working out as well as it looks like it's working out? I know you're talking about phase 2, but how about phase 1?

C. Oakes: Absolutely. Well, first of all, it's the North Cariboo Community Campus. It's, again, a unique partnership between UNBC and the College of New Caledonia.

We have been very successful. In fact, if you look at the tuition, the number of people that are going into the college, we have been successfully increasing our numbers when I know some of the other college seats have been declining. So first, that's an absolute win. We're finding that people are staying in the community, and they're getting educated.

The other really strong program happening in our community, and that's with UNBC, is the nursing program. It is attracting people from throughout the province. We are seeing immediate results with people going through the program, deciding to stay in the community and getting work in our hospitals. For us, we think that's what these kind of initiatives should be about.

There are so many opportunities for the future. If you look at the whole plan of the North Cariboo Community Campus as far as phase 2 goes, there are some other components that are equally as interesting — that is, agrisciences. If you look at communities like Fairview, Alberta, there is the potential for us to also look at utilizing this area for agrisciences, whether it's farrier schools or things like that.

By allowing us the opportunity with phase 2, it gives us the shell so that we can meet the needs of what our community can move forward on. If we can build this shell and get some programming dollars, we can start actually identifying what needs to happen in the community, whether you put welding in one year….

Actually, I have another comment to make, which is a really positive thing — the mobile training unit.

I just have to congratulate the government. The mobile training program has been such a success in the community. That was such an inventive thing, to say: "Let's take training…." I know it's focused on the first nations communities, but we've been very privileged to have it come into our community on two of the terms.

I just applaud you on that type of thinking. That is getting skilled labour happening in a very unique environment. I know that went off the question, but I think you need to be commended for that.

B. Bennett (Chair): Thank you very much. Let me just say as Chair that it's not our role here to debate you or argue with you or anything. We're here to listen to you and take back what you've had to say.

With regard to the one bit of your presentation that we seemed to argue with a little bit, around climate change, what I heard you saying and what I read here is that air pollution and water quality are more important to the Quesnel Chamber of Commerce than climate change. That's where you'd like to see the provincial government put its resources with regard to the community of Quesnel.

M. Boreen: I don't see that as being more important, but I see that as one of the things that should not be losing focus when budget time comes.

Resources are very scarce. We all know that. The budget process has an ability to allocate resources, and they seem to be able to move resources around. We just want to keep the board aware that there are other health concerns out there that need to be considered while climate change is being put forward.

B. Bennett (Chair): Fair enough. Thank you very much for your presentation. We appreciate it.

Your Worship, you're up next. Welcome to the committee. We've fallen behind already with our first presentation, so we're going to try and keep you to your ten minutes and then your five minutes of Q and A after that.

N. Bello: Coralee Oakes, the executive director, is also a councillor for the city, so she helped me out.

I want to welcome you to Quesnel. It's a great town, and it's very appreciative that you're here. I'm here to share with you the life of a small vibrant community and its future.

We have 10,000 people inside the boundaries and 15,000 people outside our city boundaries. We have a downtown core that's very strong and vehicle-friendly commercial areas. We're in one right now, which has only been developed in the last ten years.

It's a city of very heavy industry, the most productive and concentrated area of wood-based production in the province, and it's a city of neighbourhoods with quality of life.

Members of this committee, I really want to impress upon you that we want to retain our quality of life, and we'll talk about that for a few minutes.

You're coming to ask us what we think the priorities should be in the 2008 budget, and I have only one request. Mainly it is this: to support our ability to keep our quality of life and, with it, our ability to continue wealth for all British Columbians. We could get into specifics, and you may ask me questions about infrastructure and that, but basically we're at a crossroads here, and we need the support to continue to create wealth for Canada and British Columbia.

You're going to be hearing from the Quesnel Community and Economic Development Corporation. They're a wholly owned subsidiary of the city of Quesnel, and they will be talking more in specifics. I'm going to be talking in more general principles. I ask you to listen to them as they do get into specifics, and I think 6:05 is their time.

Before I go any further, I want you to know that despite the challenging times that we have…. The Canadian Forest Service has put out some figures. Just a few days ago the province put out figures regarding the shelf life of the pine beetle. Despite those very stark and — as the chamber of commerce referred to them — catastrophic figures, Quesnel is going to be stronger than ever in the future.

We started out as mining 150 years ago. In the 1950s we turned to forestry, and we're probably one of the most forest-dependent communities right now. But we're building on forestry, and we're going to move into economic transformation that will ensure a prosperous future.

We really have done our homework. We really have been analytical. We're not just boosters. We have thought about our future.

You could just ask the many mining interests that are coming into the region. You could ask Rocky Mountaineer Vacations, which stops here on the way between Whistler and Jasper, what they think about the tourism potential here.

You could ask the large number of people flocking here from the lower mainland, from the Okanagan, from the rest of Canada and the world. Despite those census figures, we are seeing people move in. There obviously had to be some mistake with those census figures.

Let's get into three areas that we want you to consider when you're making next year's budget decisions. Your mountain pine beetle emergency task force knows many of these. We've had meetings about this with the front-line ministries, especially in the social areas. We've had many meetings with the Ministry of Forests, so they know a lot of this information when you want to get into the details.

First of all, we've created a local plan called the Quesnel prosperity and sustainability plan. We're also part of the regional plan called the Cariboo-Chilcotin Beetle Action Coalition, which is developing a regional plan.

Both of those provide a sound platform for analytical investments in the future. As I said, I'm not going into the details in ten minutes, but they are based on hundreds and hundreds of people from the Cariboo coming together and saying what kind of future we want and what kind of future is possible.

We also have a capital reinvestment plan based on an annual $2.5 million deficit in terms of trying to keep up with our core infrastructure. Every year we put

about a million dollars into a town our size, and we really should be putting in $3½ million to keep up with our core infrastructure. You add to this the likelihood of a major drop in taxation from industry, and we could have upwards of a $5 million deficit just to keep up with core infrastructure.

We need a community sustainability buffer agreement to help us remain financially strong so that we are going to be able to provide the infrastructure as we rebuild our economy.

Thirdly, the needs of our displaced citizens must be addressed through augmentation of the social ministries, of their programs. We need to directly address some of the needs that will happen — a little bit because of the boom, but then when the bust comes. Gambling, by the way, is one of the problems we have here in Quesnel.

Our local plan calls for an investment exceeding $200 million. I'm not here just saying we need this little thing or that little thing. We're needing people to understand that Quesnel has contributed $100 million net or more per year to the B.C. industry for years and years, for decades and decades. This goes back to the gold rush, putting money into British Columbia and into Canada.

Basically, we've been really priming the pump for a prosperous urban British Columbia up here. I'm sure you've heard much of that in the past, and it's true. We need to make sure that the riches that we have put into British Columbia are reinvested when times are a little bit tough up here in the next couple of years. As I said, that shelf-life report that came out a couple of days ago says five to ten years before it really plummets in value — the pine.

Second, much of the required investment for Quesnel addresses provincial priorities such as the gateway program objective of reducing the bottleneck on Highway 97. A couple of years ago we saw signs go up on the Cariboo connector — four-laning. I drive up and down to Prince George as well as Williams Lake, and I see these signs. They say four-laning. That happened about three years ago. I'm hoping that's going to be changing into something more than a slogan.

Third, larger regional centres. You know, it's hard to pick on other regional centres, but let's just look at one, one time, if you'll indulge me. Prince George, Kelowna and Kamloops received the vast majority of rural capital and program funding, especially when you define rural as under 250,000 people.

It's important that we understand that on a per-capita basis, those cities get way more than we do. We've estimated that Prince George has gotten over $600 million in provincial and federal capital funding, and that was between 1990 and 2006. That not only includes the roads, education and other requirements but many new infrastructure projects in that city.

Then you look at Quesnel. I'm not saying that Prince George doesn't need it. There's a certain spinoff that we get from being near Prince George, an hour and a half up the road, but you still have to look a little bit deeper and go to the next level of community. Rural doesn't mean Kamloops, Kelowna and Prince George; it means more than that.

What have we gotten? We've received the North Cariboo Community Campus. That's great, $12 million; we're very happy. I could talk about how it's been successful and how phase 2 will be successful.

We also got $2 million for an indoor soccer facility, which the Lenarduzzi boys come up and play at. That's fantastic, because it's indoors and keeps us busy. But that's $15 million compared to their $600 million, yet we're not that much smaller than them. We're 25 percent of them, but we got 2½ percent of the investment.

I want to be clear that we're not criticizing the administration — this government or previous administrations — because those investments make sense. We benefit, to a degree, from the investment in Prince George.

We're entering into a major time when we have to reinvest. We're restructuring our economy. Our net contributions will likely decrease for a period. We want to continue to create wealth through this restructuring period and be ready when the economy booms again in the future. But if we are starved of transition financing, our recovery will be severely undercut, and the B.C. economy will suffer in the medium and long range because you haven't invested in towns like Quesnel.

Just like you put money into a farmer's field. You let it stay fallow for a year, because you give it a break. You have to invest in our towns, even when we have less wealth production for the rest of Canada and British Columbia.

Despite how rational the argument I've made is, I don't see that restructuring will happen without restructuring exactly the method that Quesnel can access these finances. We can't compete with larger centres and their much greater capacity to vacuum up public resources.

What we need to do is have a system. They mentioned the idea of stumpage. That's what the chamber of commerce has mentioned. That's one way, but there could be other ways where we share directly in resource rents and other tithes. I remember the first beetle boss talked about this.

The money's being made now. Six million cubic metres are being harvested now. It's going to go down to one million cubic metres. So we should be saving now and then reinvesting, whatever way we do it. There are many ways of doing it. There's the way they did it in the Peace River. There's the Columbia Basin, elsewhere. The Fair Share is what I'm referring to in the Peace River.

If we can invest now, then when times really get tough, we won't have to come begging and pleading for what we think is a basic right and an obvious business requirement: reinvestment in our capacity to contribute. That's the whole idea. That's the title of this presentation.

For 2008 there are areas in which a beginning has been made. Our economic development corporation, as I said, will talk in more detail. You'll receive something from the Cariboo-Chilcotin Beetle Action Coalition in the next few months, which talks about $500 million over ten years for the entire Cariboo. We're working very closely together. It's not a competitive thing at all.

When I was writing this, I came to the end and said: "Well, what am I really asking for?" I really would like that the government publicly states the scope of the reinvestment the province is prepared to make over the next ten years. That's what I think should be happening.

We've got a resolution to the Union of B.C. Municipalities, that despite very positive relations, discussions with the ministries and positive discussions with the ministers…. We feel that it could be much clearer as to what you are prepared to do for cities like Quesnel.

It's not a pie-in-the-sky thing. I believe that just as the federal government put up $1 billion over ten years, the provincial government should state a figure and say: "We are going to support those communities from Burns Lake to 100 Mile House that have been most severely impacted."

B.C. is economically strong, thanks in part to the forest industry. Where is the forest industry? You're sitting in the middle of it.

Thank you very much for your time. I didn't want to have any big PowerPoint or anything like that. I just wanted to talk common sense. It's true. B.C. has to support resource communities like Quesnel.

B. Bennett (Chair): Thank you very much, Your Worship. Your powerful presentation is appreciated. We have one member who wants to ask you a question, and we may have others.

J. Horgan: Thank you very much, Your Worship. That was a terrific presentation. I do have to say, though, that my best friend teaches soccer at Correlieu, and he says that that stadium is the best thing that's ever happened to Quesnel.

I also wanted to say that I worked in government in the nineties during the Fair Share program's genesis, and I was a key bureaucrat involved in the Columbia Basin Trust. You certainly had my full support in trying to return resource rents to the communities where they were generated. It's long overdue.

I believe that with the superstumpage and the incredible cut that we're seeing now, it's an ideal time to put that fund in place with a dollar figure so that communities like Quesnel can benefit in the future. You have my support on that.

What I wanted to touch upon is the downside that you touched upon peripherally in your presentation, and that's gambling and its impact on a small community like Quesnel. You made reference to the impact of the Lottery Corporation in Kamloops. One-third of the revenue that goes through the Lottery Corporation in Kamloops is a result of casino gaming.

I'm wondering if you could advise the committee what the impact, in your minds, has been of having a casino in a small town like Quesnel — in terms of the social impacts and if there have been any economic impacts.

N. Bello: Certainly, economically we're addicted, because we get $600,000 a year out of a $20 million budget from it. So I can't be two-faced. Quesnel has one of the 17 gaming centres. In reality, I hear all the time about people losing their mortgages. It isn't pretty, and if it disappeared, it would be a tough pill to swallow for governments.

I'm not going to vote for that, and I know people have the will to decide what they want to do with their money. But it certainly is something, as I said at one of these places — NCMA or somewhere — where the Lottery Corp says, "You don't have to advertise it so directly. You could make it a little more soft and bring up that responsible gambling side of it a little bit higher than 'You never know'" — which is their main kind of thing.

B. Bennett (Chair): That was a great presentation. We're going to take a little bit of extra time and squeeze in one more question here if we can.

J. Kwan: Your Worship, in your presentation you talked about a need for a community-sustainability buffer agreement. Can you shed some light on that, and what specific components are you looking at within that agreement that you need the province to participate in?

N. Bello: There was a lot of pressure about wanting us not to tax our industry as much. We have shifted it over, and we've saved, unbeknownst to some, up to a million dollars to some major industry.

If you go in that direction, what happens is that you are trying to put it onto residents, who can ill afford it. So what we have done is said: "What exactly are our needs? What are our real needs?" These are not the social amenities, although I could make a case for social amenities in terms of economic development. But our real core needs come to $3½ million a year. Then, as I said, if there are some mills that do close down — and there probably will be — they might get up to $5 million.

What I see, as we were talking about, is the Fair Share concept brought down to here, where certain amounts of money are, on a formulaic basis, returned to our communities so that we could actually keep our core infrastructure up to date. That's it.

B. Bennett (Chair): Thank you very much. That was an excellent presentation. We appreciate it.

I'm from Cranbrook. Everything that you said about all the money going to Victoria for 150 years, and now it's time for some of it to come back, certainly resonates with me personally. Thank you for that.

B. Bennett (Chair): We have the child care resource and referral program from Quesnel and perhaps district. You're going to tell us probably about that. We have Pat and Donna to present. You've got ten minutes, ladies, to present, and then if you can keep it within the ten, we'll have five minutes for questions.

Good afternoon. My name is Pat Colbourne, and I'm the executive director for New Focus Society, which is the not-for-profit responsible for running the child care resource and referral program, the CCRR, in Quesnel. That's what I'm here to speak to you about today.

CCRRs provide invaluable supports to child care providers and parents of young children in rural communities. It is through our services that parents can find quality child care and, if necessary, file for child care subsidy. Caregivers have a one-stop centre for affordable craft supplies, toys, activity kits and other resources. We provide playgroups that encourage parent-child interaction and early literacy, as well as workshops for caregivers that encourage healthy activities, literacy and offer moral support.

New Focus Society has held the contract for CCRR for 17 years now and has seen changes to it too numerous to mention. We've been on the brink of closure, only to be saved at the eleventh hour, particularly over the past seven years. To say that that is stressful for our small but mighty staff is a great understatement.

Last year we had four staff members running the CCRR program, as well as a half-time administrator-bookkeeper that we do not consider staff. We were able to go out into satellite communities such as Hixon and Wells and to provide outreach services to those who could not get in to us.

At this point we have two and a half staff maintaining seven and a half open hours per weekday and six hours on two Saturdays a month. We're open two evenings a month to offer workshops and support groups. We run three playgroups a week, and we're currently trying to expand them to five. This is a big undertaking for two and a half people. I'd like to tell you some of what our meagre staff has responsibility for on our bare-bones budget.

Our coordinator goes out into the community to support all child care facilities, of which we have 46 registered in our community, and to monitor registered, licence-not-required care providers, the LNRs. She is responsible for helping new LNRs through the process of becoming registered and providing for or arranging all necessary training.

In addition to her — shall we call them bureaucratic? — responsibilities of maintaining and reporting on statistics and activities, she also meets regularly with other community agencies that work with and for children, and she runs a special group for moms with babies. That's the tip of the iceberg of what her responsibilities are.

Our referral receptionist, the other full-time position, maintains the office and our extensive toy and equipment lending library, used by the entire community. She builds and maintains activity kits, works with subsidy applications and gives referrals to child care providers. This is no small responsibility. She greets and assists all users and provides administrative support to the coordinator, as needed.

Subsidy is a newer duty for her, and this can be quite time-consuming. Child care costs in rural communities tend to be less than in large urban centres, but there are still financial difficulties for many young families. Subsidy application assistance was added into our contract — with no additional funding, I'll tell you — over the last couple of years. In the past three months we have assisted over 80 families with subsidy applications. It takes about half an hour per family to help them fill out and file these applications. This has been quite an undertaking for us.

We also have, for a seven-month period, a part-time early childhood consultant whose main responsibility is to plan and facilitate two of our playgroups, which we will be expanding to four. She also provides support to the receptionist and the coordinator, as needed, on a part-time basis.

Each year we are asked to do more with less, and the staff are very nearly overwhelmed trying to keep up. Burnout is extremely high in the child care field, and programs such as the CCRR serve to give support to the caregivers, to be a resource for de-stressing, as well as to provide a listening and caring ear.

Each year now it seems that we're threatened with closure. This would be a tremendous loss to the rural communities in British Columbia.

Moving early learning programs, such as those that we provide, into the schools seems to be one alternative that the government is leaning towards. Please be aware that these StrongStart centres, while a great idea and a good service, cannot serve the community in the same way that the CCRR can — with all of our experience, resources and supports that are currently in place.

It's time for our government to cook or get out of the kitchen when it comes to child care. Child care is one of the most important jobs in Canada, and one of the most overlooked and poorly paid. CCRRs serve to enhance child care services, particularly in rural communities, by monitoring and assuring that quality child care is out there for everyone and by providing the various supports to help child care facilities and child care providers in offering quality programming.

We encourage the government to keep the CCRRs going and to offer contracts of larger than one year's duration. Allow us some stability, and allow us a bit more funding leeway in order to truly make a difference for the younger generations coming up.

I'd like to turn this over to Donna, who will speak to the other side of the coin: the child care provider.

D. Legere: My name is Donna Legere, and I'm an early childhood educator. I've been an educator for 15 years, and I'm also the chair for our ECEBC branch in our community of Quesnel. I was asked to come and speak for our community on how the cuts are affecting us as educators, on a personal as well as professional note. I own and operate a preschool program and an after-school centre. We have 95 children in our preschool program and currently 21 families in our after-school centre, but because of our early childhood educators moving on to other jobs, we are now almost becoming extinct.

My after-school centre is actually looking to close its doors because we cannot find enough educators. Also, in our community we have no substitute teachers. We have no quality educators that are able to come into our centres.

Most of our staff are now going to the school districts to be teacher assistants and going to work for the city of Quesnel play groups and preschool programs because we cannot compete with the wages. We pay the staff through our parent fees, and because of that we are not able to pay union wages. The educators I have talked to in the community who have moved on have said that they will not come back into our field of work because they are not recognized like they are in a school district or working for different city of Quesnel areas.

Also, the StrongStart program that just started in our community a year ago…. They pay their staff between $19 and $22 an hour. When educators see the different ads in the papers where they are being recognized on a different level, they are definitely applying for those positions.

I've lost four staff in the last four years to different jobs. One went to a city of Quesnel ECE job because she's getting paid $17.50 an hour. Another one of my staff just left last year and is now working for the school district as a custodian. I've asked her if she would think about coming back, and she said that she won't. She said: "What's the most you can pay?" The most we can pay…. I'm one of the higher-paying centres in our community, and I pay $14 to $15 an hour. She said that she won't come back to that.

We cannot provide benefits. We cannot provide pensions, because it's our parent fees that are paying our staff.

I also have a staff person of three years that's now leaving on maternity leave. She says she will not be returning, as well, because she cannot afford to pay for child care and also work in the child care field.

Last year I put out an ad for ECE staff. Two people applied. One person backed out, and the one person that I did hire said she'll only be with me for two years, as she's going to go on to the school district as well.

As I said, our staff are becoming extinct, and it's really affecting our centres, in our small community as well as in our province. Educators are now deciding that they cannot stay in our field because they're being offered better recognition and higher wages in other parts of the profession. There are also no substitutes any longer, so the staff that we do have are becoming pressured. They're afraid to call in sick because we can't provide people to cover their shifts.

After-school centres — especially mine, personally — are also in jeopardy right now. We have an ad for an after-school position, and nobody's applying for it because of our wages.

It is just our hope that the government is going to very soon recognize early childhood educators as the root of the children, not only in our community but in our province and in our country.

All of the centres in our community as well as in the province received a lump sum of money in the spring. But it was noted in our letter from Minister Linda Reid that we could not raise our staff wages with this money, that the money had to be used for supplies and professional development. For some of the staff who didn't have all of their early childhood education, I had offered that we would pay for their education. They said: "Why would we want to do that when our wages are not going to be raised?"

People just have no…. I would say they aren't encouraged to continue in our field, and it is really affecting all of our families. Centres are closing. It's affecting the people who mean the most: our children.

The government has not yet shown my centre that they believe in what we do. They have not recognized that we are being paid very low wages for what we do and that the high quality that we give each and every day is slowly diminishing.

We have four minutes here. Is there a question from the committee for the witnesses?

B. Simpson: Thanks, Pat and Donna. I see Cari sitting in the back, avoiding the front table.

Lots of questions. You know, we've had the conversations. I want to get to Donna's point, though. This is the committee that hopes to influence the budget. Could you be explicit in what it is you're asking. What is it that this committee could recommend to the Finance Minister to ensure that your business and businesses like yours have the ability to pay the wages that ECEs deserve?

D. Legere: We want to be recognized as a profession, and we want to be recognized just as school teachers are. As studies have shown, it's the first six years of a child's life that are the most important, and that's when their brains grow faster than at any other time of their lives. But it seems that the government is recognizing from kindergarten on, not from birth to six. So we want to be recognized as teachers as well. We go to school. Our focus is child development, of course, because that's the area that we're focusing on for the first six years. We feel that it's important that we also get that recognition, just as school teachers do.

We're paid on the low end of wages. Some of the wages start at $8 an hour, and they go up to, at the most, $15 an hour. The cost of living is getting higher and higher, and our staff are suffering from burnout. Some work ten to 11 hours a day. In our preschool program, of course, it's much shorter. But we are in those children's lives each and every day, and it seems that this isn't taken into consideration. So we're asking to be recognized as a profession.

J. Kwan: Just to build on that. The wage gap really began with the end of the Munroe agreement, and then, I think, with this increase, especially at this time with the labour skills shortage…. I wonder if you can just give us some specific numbers in terms of starting

points for people in your profession for you to be able to attract the key workers that support our children's lives in those early years, which are absolutely critical. That is one piece.

The other thing is on the CCRR cuts that took place this year. My understanding was that that funding…. In fact, the ministry had encouraged the CCRR to actually expand last year, and then as a result of those cuts, you actually had to reduce service in a significant way.

Can you shed some light in terms of the impacts of that — in terms of expansion, and then all of a sudden a changing direction in policy from the government, resulting in the severe cutbacks that CCRRs, not just in your centre but across B.C., are now experiencing? How much money, then, have we actually lost for the CCRR centres?

P. Colbourne: We are $51,000 less this year. The only program we have cut is the outreach. We are still providing all of the other services under a much, much stressed budget. Again, we're facing burnout with having to do all this.

I think that it's important to allow more funding, more allowance, for us to get out into the community, especially for rural communities where people can't get to us for transportation reasons, for costs reasons, that kind of thing. We would very much like to put that back in. We certainly can't do it with two and a half staff. We're having trouble doing it with two and a half staff right now.

I believe it was last year there was a big dump by the federal government in January — somewhere in there — that brought our budget up to $209,000 last year and allowed us these opportunities. Then it was pulled out. Maybe it was the year before.

I think the gist is that the provincial government needs to recognize that child care is important. It doesn't matter what you do with skills development, and it doesn't matter what you do with the planet if you don't have a literate, capable population coming up to replace us. This is where the child care dollars need to come in. Programs like the CCRR that support all aspects of child care need that attention.

B. Bennett (Chair): On that note, thank you very much for your presentation and for your time. We appreciate your coming out today.

Next witness is the Quesnel and District Community Arts Council. It says Bernice Heinzelman. Welcome.

B. Heinzelman: Good afternoon. On behalf of the Quesnel and District Community Arts Council, I wish to thank you for the opportunity to speak to you. My name is Bernice Heinzelman, as has been mentioned, and I am the past president of the Quesnel and District Community Arts Council.

The Quesnel and District Community Arts Council is a not-for-profit arts organization and a member of the Assembly of B.C. Arts Councils, the Central Interior Regional Arts Council and the conference of the arts. We are one of the oldest arts organizations in the province. The council was originally organized in 1948 and became a society in 1973.

Currently our organization has 14 diverse member groups, which are: Quesnel Art Gallery Society, Cariboo Highland Games, Quesnel Old Time Fiddlers, Quesnel Multicultural Society, Quesnel Film Club, the harvest society, Quesnel's Shiraori Twinning, Quesnel Live Arts, Quesnel Wordspinners, Quesnel Quilters Guild, Quesnel Agricultural and Exhibition, and Quesnel Festival of the Performing Arts.

The Quesnel and District Community Arts Council and its member groups provide a wide variety of programs for our diverse population. Our art gallery is a gem and provides a means for artists to display and sell their artwork.

In addition, we are very proud of the Artrium that opened in 2005 and has over 40 pieces of art that have been donated by local, national and international artists. It is a large collection of donated artwork that is on permanent display. Many art galleries have collections of artwork, but they are not on permanent display such as ours is. If you have an opportunity, we invite you to go there.

The funding we receive from the B.C. Arts Council is appreciated, and a very high percentage of the grant is given to member groups to assist us in carrying out our programs for the community. Last year we received $7,009. Most of it was given in grants to the member groups. In addition, we provided $800 in scholarships and bursaries for students entering post-secondary education.

This year we sponsored two youth to the annual music camp at Gavin Lake, which is run by the Quesnel Old Time Fiddlers. One parent phoned me and said that her son was so grateful to receive the scholarship and attend the music camp and was thrilled to be taught by an outstanding Canadian fiddler.

Next year, due to the decrease in population, our grant will be lowered by almost $600. The loss of money will place a hardship on our arts council, as we are in the process of budgeting for our 2008-2009 year.

Our arts council and all its member groups are run by volunteers. When we experienced the cutbacks in 2001-2002, over a thousand people left the city of Quesnel, and we lost a large portion of our volunteers. The population in our community is aging, as are our volunteers, and every organization that I speak to is having difficulty recruiting new volunteers.

British Columbia has the highest number of artists per capita in the country, and we are seeing a growing emergence of artists in our own community. Many new artists are having solo shows at the art gallery, and there's a large increase in the number of people taking art, pottery, photography, woodcarving and other related courses at the arts and rec centre.

Due to the increased popularity of dance programs, the dance studio has moved to a larger location, and a new dance studio has also opened.

The Quesnel Live Arts performances play to overflowing or almost-capacity crowds at their events.

There is a definite need for a new 450-seat theatre in Quesnel. We are unable to bring in larger venues because the high school theatre is inadequate and often not accessible, as it is a classroom theatre.

For example, we were unable to host the B.C. festival of the performing arts because we did not have an adequate venue. It went to Fort St. John, bringing a million dollars into their community.

Last March the Quesnel Festival of the Performing Arts turned away over 300 applications from other communities when they held their festival, as they did not have enough venues. It has been well documented that communities that have a vibrant arts and cultural community are better able to attract and retain people. Kelowna, Nelson and Vernon are well noted for the arts and culture and the contributions that has made to diversify the economy.

In 2003 British Columbians spent $3.1 billion on arts and culture, and that is 11 percent higher than the national average. In B.C. we spend 67 percent more on live performing arts events than on sports, yet at the provincial level the government spends $14.2 million, or $3.45 per capita, while Quebec spends $9.75 per capita and Manitoba spends $8.27 per capita.

One of the government's goals is to have the best-educated and highest literacy rates in the world. There are many research studies that demonstrate that exposure and participation in the arts increase academic performance. Queen's University conducted a three-year study that if a student was involved in the arts, his or her achievement in math could increase by 11 percent. A study done in the United States says that students who were involved in the arts performed, on average, 50 points higher on the SAT test. Unfortunately, I've lost my paper that had all that information, and I couldn't find it to add it to my list at the back.

Andy Motherwell, who's a principal of Cariboo high school, stated: "When I had a student with a discipline problem, I would have him or her try out for the musical theatre program, and I would never see them at the office again for a discipline problem." Currently UBC is doing research on having children draw from the age of two, and early indications are that this is increasing their literacy skills. It is vital that the education system has enough money to provide for the arts in elementary and secondary schools.

In school district 28, Quesnel, music programs have been cut, and there is no longer a band program for students in grades 6 or 7 or choirs for elementary students. Many teachers are not trained in the areas of art and music, and we need teachers in the specialty areas to teach the students. From my own experiences as the teacher and administrator, I've viewed the difference in students when we had a strong arts and music program. Students' performance in math and language arts increased, as did their skills in problem-solving and their ability to conceptualize. They were also more attentive and interactive in a positive manner with others, as well as having a greater degree of empathy.

Peter Scott, native art teacher at Quesnel Secondary, is teaching a course to aboriginal art students that includes traditional paintings on deer hides and drum-making. He has received many expressions of interest from the community and tourists to purchase their work. In addition, he reports that attendance in his class has improved significantly, and for a few students, that is one of the only classes that captures their interest and often the only one that they attend.

Therefore, fine arts is a means to increase attendance at school, and as the students gain confidence and self-esteem, they may stay in school longer. It is very important to find the hook that will capture a student's interest to acquire an education, particularly in today's society.

Another goal of the provincial government is to create the most jobs per capita in Canada. Due to the pine beetle epidemic, our community will be experiencing a large decrease in the allowable cut, resulting in loss of many jobs. It is imperative that the community is prepared. One way to attract and retain people is to revive a vibrant arts, cultural and heritage community. To this end, the Cariboo-Chilcotin Beetle Action Committee is preparing a report that will include a section on arts, culture and heritage.

The Quesnel Economic Development Corp. has been planning for this transition and has included a section on cultural tourism. When Chemainus experienced a downturn in their economy in 1982, they painted murals, as part of public art, to attract visitors to their community. They have over a hundred murals.

The theatre festival attracts over 400,000 people to their community of 4,000. Professional actors and crews are paid for their productions, thus creating jobs in the economy. An investment in arts and culture infrastructure has direct spinoffs to the economy, as people will eat in restaurants and often stay in motels, thus creating jobs in other sectors.

Next year the Rocky Mountaineer will be giving passengers the opportunity to get off in Quesnel and spend three days in the community. With the expansion of the museum, Shiraoi House and the art gallery, the Artium and the expansion of arts, we are beginning the process of preparing for the future. The city of Quesnel's arts advisory committee is working on a strategic plan for the arts.

In 2003 the central regional arts council held a cultural tourism conference in Prince George to begin the process of looking at how we might diversify our economy through cultural tourism. A committee was struck, and B.C. Cultural Alliance North was developed. One of the goals was to market and develop arts and culture, including first nations, north of Cache Creek to the Yukon border. Unfortunately, Northern Trust turned down our application, and we do not have the money to further this initiative.

For the most part of the history of our province, 70 to 80 percent of the money that has gone into the provincial treasury has come from outside the lower mainland. The communities that have been hardest hit

by the pine beetle now need financial help to develop communities that will attract creative people. There is evidence that shows creative people will find solutions. Arts, culture and heritage can play a major role in assisting our communities to be sustainable.

We appreciate the $25 million put into an excellence fund, and it has been very successful for the arts councils that have additional money to leverage from this fund. Unfortunately, at this time we cannot access it because we do not have the additional funds.

While we appreciate the increase from $11 million to $14 million in 2005 to the B.C. Arts Council, we believe they need a substantial increase to fulfil their mandate, as they are the most credible agency for distributing the funds for the province and the community arts council. We understand that the Premier had promised to increase the funding to the B.C. Arts Council. To date they have not received the increased funding.

Our arts council and gallery desperately need a paid staff person to assist us in carrying out our programs, services and the mandate for our community. Sustained core funding would ensure viability for the arts councils in British Columbia.

As mentioned earlier, many of our volunteers are elderly, and some can no longer volunteer due to health reasons. With a paid staff person we could accomplish so much more. Marketing is just one example. If we had the resources, we could provide art programs for people with cancer and other debilitating diseases, programs for youth and youth at risk, working with first nations and preschool children. Through the arts we can build a healthy community.

Another recommendation would be to set up an endowment fund similar to the Columbia Basin Trust fund in communities that have been hardest hit by the pine beetle. The interest earned could be accessed by local arts councils and cultural groups for projects that they wish to initiate.

When applying for grants, our arts council has been turned down by Arts Now because we wanted to pay a minimum wage to grade 12 and college students for a summer aboriginal mural project. This initiative would allow the arts council the ability to have some local control. While we would still need an increase in core funding, it would help us become more sustainable.

In conclusion, Quesnel and District strongly urges the Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services to report to the Minister of Finance the need for a huge increase in funding for the arts to ensure the viability and sustainability of the artists, the arts councils and the community. My father had a saying, and I believe it to be true: "We are only as strong as our weakest spoke."

B. Bennett (Chair): Thank you very much, Bernice. We appreciate that. I did give you a bit of leeway there with your time.

B. Bennett (Chair): That's okay. You've used up three of your five minutes that we would have had questions. I've got time for probably about one question, if anyone has one.

B. Ralston (Deputy Chair): We did hear this morning in Prince George from Ted Price on behalf of Theatre North West and the Community Arts Council of Prince George. So I think we heard a very strong and effective presentation once again from the arts community here.

My question would be a simpler one, though. Given all that you've said about the economic benefits, the cultural benefits and diversifying the economy, when you applied to the northern fund, why was it turned down?

B. Heinzelman: You know, I wasn't any longer on that committee, so I'm not sure. I was there initially with CIRAC, the Central Interior Regional Arts Council, when we made the application. I hadn't heard from Gail, and she's moved, unfortunately. I don't have the answer, but I could try and get it for you.

B. Ralston (Deputy Chair): Just one follow-up. What is your budget this year?

B. Heinzelman: This year it's $7,009 that we get from the B.C. Arts Council. We provide many services to Quesnel.

B. Ralston (Deputy Chair): It's pretty dollar-effective, given what you do. It must be the smallest…. So if you got a 100-percent increase, it would be money pretty well spent, it looks like.

B. Heinzelman: I think that there's just so much more that we could do if we had a paid staff member. There are so many things I would like to see happening in our community in the arts. There are many other things I didn't mention about healthy communities and how to have more people involved. When you're going through down times, often the arts are a place where people can come and have reassurances that there is hope.

Thank you very much for allowing me to present on behalf of the Quesnel and District Arts Council.

B. Bennett (Chair): Our next witness for the committee is with the Seniors Advocacy Service, Susan MacNeill.

S. MacNeill: Sitting with me is my colleague, Ruth Schuller. Although I am the one presenting this overview, Ruth and I are actually submitting this together. I thank you very much, committee members, for setting up in Quesnel and giving us an opportunity to speak to some of these issues.

Changes in public policy toward seniors have driven many communities to engage in programs of advocacy and self-help. While these changes have

forced seniors to band together for a common cause, they have also reinforced the need to develop solidarity amongst themselves.

The Seniors Advocacy Service of Quesnel was community-driven into operation on a formal basis in October of 2004. We have expanded our office twice to meet the needs of this community.

This office maintains a roster of trained volunteers to assist seniors with referrals to agencies and consultations for practical advice in a safe, secure and comfortable environment. Our seniors are proud of the service we have provided to the community. We have facilitated several senior forums, lunchtime workshops and interactive seminars since our inception.

Prior to the Northern Health Authority travel program, we had successfully developed a transportation pilot project which enabled seniors to travel to out-of-town medical appointments at no charge to the patient. This ran for a year. We have recently launched the disabled parking permit program with the approval of SPARC-BC, the endorsement of our city hall and the support of the advocacy resources centre of the Cariboo.

We are not funded in any way but do seek out opportunities when available and appropriate. However, these are few and far between, with copious hours of searching and proposal writing needed. Our office can only remain functional with the active participation and dedication of the volunteers. We are running out of energy as we continue in the struggle for funding.

Seniors in Quesnel are the fastest-growing population sector in the north. The growth rate for seniors over 75 for the period of 2004 to 2008 is expected to be higher than 33.4 percent. Seniors that reside in our community deserve the servicing that is required to maintain life.

Our volunteers are not all seniors. They are from all walks of life, and they span all generations. However, that being said, we are busy people. Offices that were once funded by government need to be funded once again. We know that quality of life and access to services are critical to seniors.

We believe our office is very much a necessity to our seniors as the liaison with municipal, provincial and federal governments. We believe that this office plays an important role in each of the strategic goals of our community, as we share the view that innovation is essential to improving the social and economic performance of society.

We would like to participate in ongoing communication, consultation and efforts to ensure that decisions respond to priorities. We value a community that has a sense of purpose and engages in a grass-roots effort from all stakeholders. It is imperative that we continue to cultivate a diverse leadership in our community as this takes on a role of responsibility and accountability to ensure that communities reach their full potential.

We are not funded at any government level. We fundraise to keep our doors open. This is an exhaustive process to maintain, and we are seeking financial input from our government to assist in this valuable service to our community. We are a group of dedicated volunteers who foster a shared commitment with other organizations in our community. We cultivate awareness of community-based challenges and contribute to helping others solve problems. We are a candle in the wind for our seniors issues — that needs to not go out.

We are requesting that you review the budget for 2008 and consider our application for $1,000 per month to assist this office to remain open. To date, we cannot afford a telephone, a fax line or an Internet account, and the rent is due again. We will have to close these doors if we cannot secure funding.

B. Bennett (Chair): Thank you very much, Susan. We appreciate your presentation, and I'll bet there are questions here from the committee.

J. Kwan: Just out of curiosity, have you made applications to — I don't know — different ministries for potential funding for your office? If so, which ones have you made applications to? I gather that the result is no, and that's why you're here.

S. MacNeill: First of all, Jenny, we are not a registered society, so we do not qualify for an awful lot of the funding that comes through those ministries.

S. MacNeill: We are an ad hoc committee, and that is our standing in this community. The funding sources are very limited for us.

The community I live in has seniors outreach through community services. I know that they get some funding from various sources that way, but I know it's difficult to get funding for an ad hoc type of group, although very valuable. Is there a reason why you haven't registered as a society or formalized in any way so that you could access some of the money that's out there?

S. MacNeill: Yes. Part of the reason for that is that the people who came on board to assist us in the beginning…. Ruth and I trained 22 volunteers in an advocacy training program. They preferred not to be board members.

We had a struggle trying to obtain people that wanted to sit on a board. A lot of our seniors are meeting to death. A lot of our seniors are in this room. They sit on other various committees in other organizations, and they didn't want to attend yet another monthly meeting.

Part and parcel of that was that we would try and make a go of it as an advocacy service providing referral and consultation to seniors, because we had two other seniors groups in town that were registered charities that were doing other business.

R. Hawes: Just one more. Just out of curiosity, then…. For example, your banking arrangements. How

would you register yourselves at the bank? Are you a partnership, or are you a sole proprietorship? What's the entity?

S. MacNeill: We're registered as an ad hoc committee with the Quesnel Credit Union. We do have a bank account, so we had no trouble formalizing ourselves under that service name.

B. Bennett (Chair): One of our members was just saying that Member Hawes used to work for one of the chartered banks, so he's having some difficulty understanding the way that credit unions work.

S. MacNeill: I brought a bank statement to prove that we are a member of the credit union.

R. Hawes: So it's something where you're trading as something under that name.

S. MacNeill: Yes, we do. We do business as the Seniors Advocacy Service. I sit as chairperson. Ruth sits as seniors adviser. We do not have a board of directors, as we do not have anybody wishing to sit on it. That was one of the reasons that we went ahead as an ad hoc committee, and that's why we stayed that way. We find that the people coming to volunteer and help us seem to be more willing to participate if they don't have to attend a meeting once a month.

R. Hawes: Yet there are, I think, some funding streams that would be available if you were more formalized.

D. Hayer: Have you tried working with, maybe, other groups who are already registered as non-profit to see if they can help out with this?

The other thing is through gaming. We held a seminar, and you don't have to register. Sometimes you can apply for access to funds, but you still have to have an account and some structure set up. Maybe that's another thing you can look at — those gaming funds from the provincial government.

S. MacNeill: Thank you, Dave. I believe we have checked through the gaming department to see if there were any accessible funds. There again it was another issue of being registered as a non-profit society.

I do realize that that has been a bit of a challenge for us, but I've also spent a number of hours researching other formats for funding for ad hoc committees. Yes, there is some typical funding there. But we do know of other seniors associations that are ad hoc in the province that are funded by Northern Health. They've been grandfathered in. They're getting their office expenses covered and that sort of thing.

We have a very limited amount of money. Unfortunately, often it comes out of my bank account to cover the rent until we can see ourselves clear to fundraise some more and cover costs.

B. Bennett (Chair): Thank you very much, Susan, and thank you, Ruth. We appreciate your time here today.

R. Hawes: Can I just ask one last question? There is a chapter of the Old Age Pensioners Organization here, is there not?

S. MacNeill: This is very short. I'll make it very short. Ruth and I have also worked in another capacity together, assisting seniors in our community. When the seniors advisory boards were eliminated, Ruth and I continued to field many calls at home. Then it was community-driven that we open something a little more formal.

Now, we do have two seniors groups here in town, which both work independently of each other. What we found through a survey we conducted was that they wanted this service as a separate entity from either of those other services, basically because they were providing a social atmosphere and we were providing a more focused consultation-referral atmosphere. That seemed to be what the community was looking for, so it works for us.

B. Bennett (Chair): Are you satisfied now, MLA Hawes? Thank you very much. I know you were only trying to help.

Next up is North Cariboo Post-Secondary Education Trades and Training Council. We have three names down here: Mary Glassford, Ed Coleman and Doug Larsen. All three are here?

M. Glassford: As chair of the North Cariboo Post-Secondary Education Trades and Training Council, I want to take this opportunity to thank the committee as a whole for allowing the council the opportunity to speak to you today.

As a community, we have been working on the development of phase 2 of our North Cariboo Community Campus for trades and technology since the sod was turned for construction of phase 1 of the North Cariboo Community Campus.

The response and support from our community for phase 1 have been overwhelming. Phase 1 has far exceeded our expectations in projected enrolment numbers. Enrolments are near capacity in less than two years from the opening of phase 1.

The document we are giving you today is the completed March 2007 trades training plan. The purpose of this document is to support a request for $125,000 to $150,000 to proceed to the facility requirement analysis stage as soon as possible. We strongly believe this is a stand-alone document. The plan also supports the Quesnel and district economic diversification plan and will assist in addressing the issues associated with the mountain pine beetle impacts and the current and projected trades shortages throughout British Columbia.

The community's objective is to have a flexible $3 million to $3.5 million core training facility completed in Quesnel by December 2008 and in parallel, or closely to follow, an additional $1 million space for magnet programming. The Post-Secondary Education Trades and Training Council is prepared to submit applications to the Northern Development Initiative cross-regional fund and the pine beetle account for funding for capital.

In early October we will be submitting an expression of interest to the community economic diversification initiative, which is a new program just announced. It is a government of Canada program aimed at helping to diversify forest-dependent communities in British Columbia hit hard by the mountain pine beetle.

The education council is confident that phase 2 will be given serious consideration for funding, as the facility will improve the economic diversification of the north Cariboo for the future. Of course, our ultimate goal is success in moving phase 2 forward.

D. Larsen: Okay, I'll just briefly provide some context. In the handout you received there is the overall plan. On page 4 it sort of maps out some of the numbers, and there's a coloured one-pager which I pulled out, as well, that highlights it a bit more.

Trades training by Quesnel campus for the College of New Caledonia started off in 2004-2005. As you look down, the total enrolment was 29 in two programs. As we're moving into 2007-2008, we're conservatively hitting 113. So in three years — going into the fourth year — it has quadrupled, and we've done this without a permanent facility. Currently, what we're using is a vacated junior high school that has been provided to us in partnership with school district 28 as well as partnership with other industry partners in the community. Without these partnerships, we wouldn't have accomplished this.

Essentially, what we've had in terms of community support — both from other organizations as well as from businesses — as well as demand from students locally and from people from outside the region…. When you start looking at who we are serving, right now, essentially, I'd say that we've profiled three different types of students.

One is youth coming out of high school looking to get trades training and going to work for industry. The second is students that are currently in high school that basically have that interest. For example, we're running a welding program right now. Three of those students were going into grade 11, completing the welding program and then going on to finish their grade 12. When they graduate, they'll actually have a welding C ticket. The third student, in particular, is people who are transitioning out of one type of work into another. You're looking at mature students with limited mobility, because they have family responsibilities, who are trying to make a shift required because of change in industry. They are required to retool, retrain to make a re-establishment with the labour market.

I think that gives you some context on how much we've done with limited resources and through partnerships, and who we're serving.

E. Coleman: The post-secondary council was established ten years ago when this community realized it needed to take local responsibility for the post-secondary services for our youth and adults, so it's been ten years now. The first project was facilities and programming with phase 1, so the standard services you would expect to see in small communities our size. The second project is a trades training facility, which includes an agriculture sector magnet program. There is nothing like that in the north currently, other than going to Alberta or south.

The feeds to this project are currently 400 to 600 adults, 25 percent of whom would be aboriginal, who have been upgrading their skills over the last ten years or less. They're moving on to occupational interests, and at least 25 percent of those interests are in trades.

We continue to have very, very strong trades programming in our high schools, and then out of that programming we pull students that are ready for the higher-skill training in the college setting. We also utilize Correlieu Secondary and Quesnel Secondary as needed, and we're in a facilities crunch there, where

both those facilities are quite old. For example, we've maxed out on power. We can't add power to Quesnel Secondary at all — we've hit the grid — and at Correlieu we have to do a major upgrade with B.C. Hydro to get some more power into that facility. For example, we can't even put more power into those high schools for some of the programming.

Basically, this community is ready — shelf-ready — for a comprehensive phase 1 of phase 2 trades facility. If we do a comparative analysis throughout the region, Willams Lake and Prince George have the facilities, and Quesnel doesn't. We feel we're ready. There is nothing comparative that we shouldn't have here.

On top of all that, we've done most of the programming with fee-payer. Now we're starting…. ITA have opened their eyes and have sent money now. Prince George has opened its eyes, and they've sent money now for programming. So we started all that programming fee-payer-only in school district and college partnerships.

We've proven that this is an excellent location for trades training. We have 28 percent of the participants coming to the trades programming from other parts of the province because the wait-lists are too long where they are. They come here; they stay here. That helps our economy, and that trend just continues.

We're positive in the school district because we've put close to 70 students through dual-credit programming — whether it's residential construction, plumbing, electrical or welding or, coming in the future, millwrighting. All those kids have been very successful. They've gone on to employment, and most of them continued on in their trade sector.

Shelf-ready; ready to go. Time to build this building. We're in older facilities that are inadequate, and it's time for this economy to move forward on the trades front in the north Cariboo.

R. Hawes: Thank you very much for your presentation, and congratulations for the distance you've already travelled. It sounds like you've been pretty progressive and thinking outside of the box and making a lot happen with just about nothing. So that speaks to your credit.

You mention two high schools you're working out of, and you are working right now on a vacated junior secondary. Are you saying that building itself is also completely inadequate?

E. Coleman: Yeah, it's inadequate. It requires about a $3 million upgrade, and it's being considered for a middle-school solution. There are secondary-school structures in the top ten for a reinvestment — probably a $15 million to $20 million investment. So that school is being looked at in the structural reorganization. So we will actually have one less high school. We'll tear down a facility in that rework.

R. Hawes: Do you have orders of magnitude of what the cost of your…? You know, as you move through the phases, and you get to building a building, what kind of money are you talking about?

M. Glassford: If I may, we estimate that our costs for a core training facility would be $3 million to $3.5 million. When the property was purchased for phase 1 of our North Cariboo Community Campus, enough property was purchased for phase 2. Phase 2 was on the radar at that time, and it is on as a third priority for the College of New Caledonia's capital budget.

Our concern as a community is that we are going to be one of the hardest-hit communities because of the mountain pine beetle epidemic, and we would like to try and find a way, of course, to move our facility up. We have the room, we have the space, and we've proven that we are capable as a community to move things forward.

B. Simpson: Mary Glassford is also a director with the regional district. Often Mary and I have different opinions on topics around this community, but on this one we both see eye to eye.

I thank you for all the work you've done on this, and Ed as well. Doug, of course, you're coming on board as a new person on this.

A couple of quick questions. One goes off of what MLA Hawes asked, and that is: what is the actual ask? Because you mentioned other funds and other sources of funds. We're the provincial budget committee, and if you just could be clear for the record what it is you would like from the provincial government.

The other thing that I would like to address — and you've addressed it a couple of times, Mary — is that sense of immediacy. You're hoping to get this thing up and running in 2008, so you need some decisions made there.

Then, the third one is to Doug. One of the things that we get in our office is the tuition differential between here and Prince George for similar course offerings. There's sometimes quite a substantial differential for people staying here trying to take a course versus if they can go up to Prince George and take the same course at a much reduced cost.

If we address these capital costs, if we deal with the programs here, do you see some of that differential coming down? As Ed has already pointed out, we're doing this on the back of fee payers, for the most part. What is it going to take, aside from capital, to bring those costs down?

D. Larsen: Sure. Maybe we'll start with the last first. I think those fees have actually already started to come down. The point Ed made was that initially the programming was cost recovery. Basically, we've built the capacity that way, and as funds have been forthcoming, we've been reducing those fees. That being said, there is still, in terms of operating costs…. We are operating outside of our facilities, so there are rental costs, lease costs and so forth in some instances, and in some cases there aren't. The expectation is that as things are more fully funded, then those will be coming down correspondingly.

I think there's a point also to be noted. Currently, where the cost structures are such that…. I think there is — correct me if I'm wrong — a limit of 2 percent for

tuition increases. So if you start looking across the province, there's a differential between Prince George and ourselves, but the differential isn't so big between ourselves and other institutions. Some other institutions already had their costs higher. Prince George didn't raise them for a number of years. When that limit came in, they got caught, and as a result, they're not able…. I guess my point to that — and being a new person, as you indicated — is that I'm not sure that our costs would come down to Prince George, because we still have to cover those costs.

M. Glassford: I'll try and answer the question you asked, Bob, if I may, on the amount of money we're asking for. Now, if we knew for sure that we could expect $3.5 million in core funding for our facility, that is what we would want. But we are prepared, as a council, if we have the ability to move this forward, to seek other capital funding. One way or the other, as a council and as a community, we would like this project to be done as quickly as possible and, again, for the economic reasons that I talked about.

It's hard to imagine that I've been involved…. I asked Ed yesterday how long I've been on the council. Well, I guess it's ten years. The first few years were enormous — to prove the need for a stand-alone facility such as phase 1 was. We had the ear of government, and they purchased the property. It's on our map and design that shows phase 2. But of course, capital needs change and things change, because everybody in the whole province needs these facilities.

I think what we're looking for is a commitment that somehow this project can go ahead. We are in the process, the first week of October, of trying to get an expression of interest written for the federal government for this funding. Now, we may be fortunate and get $3 million; we may get $1 million. The point is that we would like, for this community, to move this forward as quickly as possible.

B. Simpson: Just a point of clarification. You got to it at the end, and I phrased the question wrongly. It said that often for Northern Trust or for the western diversification — whatever — you have to bring some money to the table in order to get some money leveraged. I was wondering if you had a sense of what that minimum is that you might have to bring as opposed to wanting the whole amount covered.

E. Coleman: Bob, I think the critical…. It's a two-part piece — right? The planning dollars need to get in our hands quickly, because you've got to plan this facility, and we know it's a $3.5 million to $5 million range, depending on how the magnet programming plays out. But regardless of anything, any leverage will speed it up all the way along. Definitely Advanced Education and the College of New Caledonia, Prince George, have a responsibility to bring about a $5 million investment here as quickly as possible.

I mean, they dropped $7 million into Williams Lake on a dime, and they're not fully loaded. We're already loaded, and we could fill that facility on a dime. Basically, it's shelf-ready in many instances. Any kind of financial decision-making, whether it's the planning dollars or the capital, will lever it 90 different directions. We've proven that with the first project.

J. Kwan: You mentioned that with this proposal, you're now the third priority with the college. So I guess my first question is: do you know, with the college priority…? Why is it that you're third? Second, have you approached the Minister of Advanced Education, I guess, with this proposal request?

Everyone's talking about the skills shortage — the chamber of commerce, etc. Everywhere we go, everyone's talking about that. What I'm hearing from you is that you have a plan ready to roll, that you can actually get people trained to meet the demands and that you need, as a start, $125,000 to $150,000 to get the planning stages going and then a capital grant, ultimately, of $3.5 million to get the facility built. That's what I'm hearing.

M. Glassford: I can try and answer that, and I may have a little bit of a different spin on it.

One of the problems I think we face as an education council is that we look at post-secondary education as education. I think sometimes we forget that an educational facility can be an economic benefit to a community.

We have made this presentation to the government, to Minister Coell. I am meeting with Minister Coell, I hope, again next week. I believe I had to mail this document because it wasn't available the last time I met with him.

Part of the problem we have is that if a capital project is number 3 on the main campus's priority list, then that's where it stays till they wish to move it forward. So what we're saying is that there must be a way, through government, in light of the mountain pine beetle and what we're expecting to face, to move this project forward on behalf of the College of New Caledonia and this campus in Quesnel. That's our ultimate goal — that somehow there is a way to move this forward.

E. Coleman: I think part of the shift in Prince George is that there are cultural facilities that the student body is partnering on, so that kind of got bumped up to number 1. They've had some leadership changes, some board changes. I think we've had this as number 1, and then with some of the changes, it…. Each time we go back, it kind of moves up to be number 1 with another number 1. We'll be back with that board this fall to really reinforce that.

We've done all the comparative study work. You know, we've brought pictures back from the new Langley facility — beautiful facility. This kind of thing can occur up here in the north too.

M. Glassford: Just as an aside, if I may, this document here…. We found the money in the community to have it prepared and to hire a consultant. The year before that we did another business plan, and again, we found the money in our community to have that business plan done as well. We are a very innovative community. It's just that we now are in a position where we really need some help in moving this forward. So thank you very much.

B. Bennett (Chair): Thank you very much, Mary, Ed and Doug. We appreciate it.

We're looking for the Quesnel Museum and Heritage Commission. You must be Lorna Townsend. Welcome.

L. Townsend: Good afternoon, hon. MLAs and members of the Legislature. My colleagues and I, the whole back row there, are here today as city-appointed representatives of the Quesnel and District Museum and Heritage Commission. Thank you for this opportunity to present a project proposal that we believe has a crucial role to play in the economic diversification and sustainability of our community and our region.

As advisers to the city on culture and heritage issues, we've spent much of the past decade engaged in planning and preparing for a new facility that we are tentatively calling the Cariboo culture, heritage and visitor centre. Our work has incorporated many local and regional studies — including Quesnel's economic development business plan, which identifies the need for a new or expanded museum and visitor's information centre facility and a primary goal of making Quesnel the most important tourism centre north of the Okanagan.

Communities around us, such as Williams Lake and Prince George, are similarly focusing on their cultural assets and improving their infrastructure to take advantage of a growing interest in cultural heritage tourism and a desire to diversify the regional economy in light of the pine beetle epidemic.

What makes our project so unique? It will be a major information centre for tourists, and it will be an active and vital community cultural centre. By combining these two functions, such a facility will serve the economic and the social, cultural and educational needs of our community.

It will be a real multipurpose institution, professionally operated, technologically modern and focused on entertainment, education and exploration. It will have appropriate exhibit, public performance and research space to enable more meaningful collaborations with local industries, schools, post-secondary institutions and community groups.

Its strategic location in the heart of downtown Quesnel will ensure that it is a feature landmark for the city. Located directly across from the train station, which is used by Rocky Mountaineer Vacations, we're guaranteed to attract the visitors from this venture.

RMV's own projections of upwards of 70,000 guests annually, based on the Kamloops success, make our project even more viable.

We can capitalize on the economic opportunities offered by RMV routes by the increased focus on Asia-Pacific visitors, by the Prince George airport expansion and Prince Rupert terminal, and by our traditional tourist traffic, provided that we have the infrastructure capable of meeting the entertainment, aesthetic and service demands of these visitors.

Like Exploration Place in Prince George, our proposed facility will have a large atrium or lobby area that will house a reception area, a gift shop, a coffee bar and the visitors information centre. When not being used for these purposes, it will be easily transformed into a public performance venue.

Such a multipurpose building will allow us to increase the scope of the public programs that we offer, including educational programs, guided tours, lectures, cultural demonstrations, art shows, exhibit openings, and community-wide receptions and events.

The interpretive exhibit portion of our facility will have two major themes. The first will focus on the region's history, with an emphasis on its unique cultural diversity. Like most small community museums, ours is traditionally focused on the European pioneer experience. We as a commission, with museum staff, have spent the past several years helping to construct a more accurate depiction of our community's unique and culturally diverse past.

With the support of the community, city council and the provincial and federal governments, we've established significant sustainable partnerships with the first nations, Chinese and Indo-Canadian cultural groups in our region, helping to collect, preserve and promote their history and culture and facilitating exchanges among these groups in the community at large.

We will continue to work together to ensure that our new facility is a culturally inclusive heritage centre in which all members of our community can gather to tell their stories and promote their cultures and heritage.

We are also proposing, as a second major exhibit focus, the region's forest industry including the history, the science of forestry and tree plant biology, the complex contemporary issues related to the pine beetle epidemic, and other environmental and botanical programs.

Quesnel has the single most concentrated area of wood production in the world and the most technologically modern processing facilities. Local forest companies and regional Forest Service representatives have indicated a keen interest and willingness to participate as partners in this project and in the exhibit development and educational programming of our new facility.

Our growing intellectual partnerships with UNBC and CNC also suggest a potential for Quesnel to become a regional centre for academic research related to the history of the community and its forest industry.

To support our chosen exhibit themes, we have one of the most valuable and expansive archival collections outside the lower mainland, but we have no space for the public to access it. Our new facility will meet the standards for conservation and care, allow for public access and provide space to increase our archival holdings,

thus enhancing our research resources so that regional academics can further contribute to the local historical record.

Finally, our current visitors information centre and museum facility is a proven partnership. It is city-owned and -operated, with a well-established organizational structure, year-round professional staff and committed operational funding. We have the tools to succeed.

Why should the provincial government invest in our project? First and foremost, the north Cariboo region needs this kind of infrastructure. As the epicentre for both the pine beetle epidemic and our province's rich and unique historical story, this facility will play a major role in the diversification and sustainability of our economy. It will be an axis for promoting and developing tourism products beyond the four walls of the building through marketing, programming, interpretation and private-public collaborations with industry.

Tourism statistics for the route to Alaska, for Barkerville and for our local visitors information centre have risen significantly in the past year. Ecotourism, cultural tourism and heritage-related tourism have all been identified as significant growth areas throughout the province, with many visitors identifying arts, culture and heritage as their primary reasons for travelling.

We're strategically located as a destination for the Rocky Mountaineer guest, as the gateway to Barkerville and as the starting point for the Alexander Mackenzie Grease Trail. We have a reputation for possessing the best artifact collection of any small community museum in B.C. This collection includes the unique photographic works of two early 20th century Chinese photographers, C.S. Wing and C.D. Hoy. These exhibits, made possible in part because of a generous collaboration with Barkerville Historic Town, will be cornerstone exhibits for our new facility and have the potential to transform our museum into a valuable regional tourism asset and economic stimulus.

This infrastructure investment in our community will encourage further economic development throughout the region. We're witnessing changing demographics both locally and in the tourism sector. We need to ensure that we have the cultural amenities to retain and attract this aging baby-boomer population. The synergies of this multipurpose cultural facility will complement the city's development plans aimed at revitalizing and enhancing the downtown core.

Finally, our current facility is almost 50 years old, and it does not meet standard codes of safety, stability and protection of our more than 30,000 priceless local artifacts. We're ready to move forward with this project. Our recently completed facility study was financially supported by the federal government, Quesnel city council, Quesnel Economic Development Corporation, Northern Development Initiative Trust and two major corporations from the forestry and tourism sectors. Conducted by the professional team of Boni-Maddison, it includes best- practices models, order of magnitude, capital costing, conceptual drawings and a business plan, all of which we'd be happy to share with you.

This study also involved participation from many economic, social and educational stakeholder groups in the community, including major business interests, all of which have indicated overwhelming support and a willingness to participate in ensuring the success of this project. We urge you to consider our project for capital infrastructure funding in your upcoming budget recommendations.

I. Black: Let me start out by congratulating you on this presentation. I've seen a lot of these. This is very, very good. It's very specific. It's broken down by component, and those of you who put this together should be very proud of the effort, because it's very good. I wish you every success in taking it forward.

I want to explore one comment you made towards the end of your remarks about where you have pursued funding at this point. You've got $800,000 worth of projects. In the bulk of the report, you identify a building capital budget of $9 million, an exhibitory budget of $2 million, which I assume includes some of the 750 that's subsequently detailed. Either way, you're dealing with $11 million to $12 million, depending on how you look at it.

Where have you looked for the money so far? What feedback are you getting? You mentioned also the involvement of some local private industry. You mentioned two forestry companies. Paint us a picture of where you want this money to come from and what role, specifically, you're looking for the provincial government to play, both monetarily and partnership-wise in this effort.

L. Townsend: Okay. First of all, I'm speaking today just to the infrastructure project, but what we have given you is a little guideline of our priorities for 2008.

L. Townsend: The other funding we're either already applying for or are looking for leveraging, but today I'm really here just to speak to the capital. Looking at nine and two for the exhibits, other cultural institutions similar to ours are funded by a third provincial, a third federal. The other third would come from local and the private sector. We anticipate that our funding will be the same.

B. Simpson: Thanks, Lorna, and thanks to the gang at the back. As you well know, I echo Iain's commendations for you.

It's unfortunate. We had Mayor Bello first or second, and we should have probably had him last, as we roll all of these up. A lot of it has to do with reconciling priorities. I see Robin in the back. Robin is going to

make a presentation to us next about the multi-centre. We just had one about phase 2 of the college campus, etc.

Lorna, from your perspective as a cultural and heritage group, you're in competition, effectively, with a whole bunch of other groups or in cooperation. But really, there's a limited amount of resources that people are competing for. Is there a way that you could help us understand what role the provincial government could play in helping communities achieve the wide range of desires they have so that we're not forcing communities to kind of play one group off against the other?

That's one question. It may not be a fair question, but I'd like your reflection on it.

L. Townsend: I don't think that we need to be seen as being in competition with one another, and I think that's probably part of the problem. We're all here asking for money because of that seeming competition, rather than supporting each other, which would maybe make us get further ahead in a quicker manner.

I think they're all worthy projects, and I don't think one is more worthy than the other. I think we are in a crisis situation with the pine beetle, and we certainly have a need to diversify economically. I think our project is a really good fit for that. Everywhere you go, cultural tourism and heritage facilities are seen, particularly in this region, as one of the primary ways of diversifying — using our natural assets.

R. Hawes: You mentioned the federal-provincial infrastructure program. Applications under that program generally are initiated by the municipalities. Has Quesnel initiated an application? Have they started the process?

L. Townsend: We're just at that stage where we're starting to. This is an opportunity, in advance of your budget discussions, to be a little bit familiar with the project. But be rest assured that we will be seeking funds.

R. Hawes: Just to clarify how that works, there is a committee that does not have politicians on it that takes all of the applications that come in. They go through all of the applications, and they weigh them for all kinds of different factors, and then they come back with recommendations. It's not a group like this that would take a recommendation forward, just so you know that.

B. Bennett (Chair): Nonetheless, it's a good thing that you came here today. There are at least a couple of MLAs on this committee who sit on the government's Treasury Board. Normally, specific projects like this don't even get to Treasury Board. What gets to Treasury Board is how much money is going to go into a particular funding program for a variety of projects like the one that you're here promoting.

It's a good thing that you've come here today. As others have said, it was a very good presentation, and it's an interesting-looking project. We do wish you all the luck. Now we know about it, and that's a good thing for you. Thank you again for coming.

R. Hay: Thank you, MLA Bennett, and the rest of the members of the panel. I'm a little nervous, for me.

A bit of background. I'm just a citizen. I'm the only citizen not connected with politics who is on the task force committee. The rest of the members are either employed by the city or on the CRD or elected councillors in the city of Quesnel.

The task force itself is an appointed body of people with the goal of seeing this project through from the vision stage to the construction stage. I am only one member of seven, and the rest of the members are actually in a meeting tonight where we're discussing the different types of building and financing and funding and budget application process, including the different types of grants that are out there and where we will go.

I'd like to begin a little bit with the end in mind. This project is one of four or five projects in the greater Quesnel area that have very high priority. In fact, this project is the highest priority for the city of Quesnel itself, recognizing that there are two political entities working together on this particular project. I like what Lorna said. We're not in competition with any one. The last two projects and this project here really are going to be projects that we see as an important future in the next 20 to 30 years for the central portion of British Columbia, the greater Quesnel region. These three projects, when tied together, will provide a new direction, a new focus and a new future in Quesnel.

So what are we talking about? Well, we're talking about not just an ice arena. This is a comprehensive facility which will have an ice arena; a performing arts theatre, as the arts are very big in Quesnel; meeting and assembly space, flexible in nature; a walking track; and other healthy amenities, located in the downtown region of Quesnel.

A little bit of background. The existing arena facility, it was determined, needed to be replaced in 2002. The building right now is 56 years old, built by local labour — contractors and other people in the early '50s who came together and helped construct this, as many communities in western Canada did. The building has outlived its usefulness. It's mechanically and structurally sound, but it can no longer be continued operationally in the way that it is.

The CRD and the city saw this as an opportunity to vision to the future. Knowing that pine beetle would be affecting us, knowing that there would be change in the demographics, knowing that there would be change in where our economy and our community would be going, what could we do to add some value to the community which would serve the community for the next 50 years, as the old arena had served it for the last 50?

We developed a vision. The task force was charged with developing a vision. We incorporated much

consultation with professional firms involved in building arenas, theatres and multipurpose-type events like this. We've conducted a number of stakeholder meetings in our community. We've done a number of individual presentations to user groups in various regions within our community, and we completed a business plan in the spring of 2007 that gave us direct advice on how we could manage such a project of this nature.

This is where we're at right now. We are reviewing the specific components of that vision, seeking finalization of those in the next 30 days.

We have staff of the CRD and the city of Quesnel in the process of preparing terms of references and deciding on the method of how we would build or construct this type of facility. In fact, the rest of the team is reviewing that with a professional presenter this evening.

We want to discuss the various options and finalize those. Coming up early in October, the CRD is going to review the question: is this a goal? Are we going to go ahead with this building? We believe, from the task force's viewpoint, yes. The community wants it. The city of Quesnel has already said that it's a high priority. It's the highest priority for them, and they want it.

All right. What is this going to do in our community? The arena itself takes up the largest part of the footprint. Like most western rural communities, the arena has been the lifeblood and often the centre of a lot of activities, not just ice-user events but many other things too. This is an opportunity to create a facility which will have other things attached to it, as I said earlier — theatre, meeting and assembly spaces, walking tracks, showcases, a place to capture the sporting history of the city of Quesnel.

We think that each of the above in isolation cannot achieve the same benefit as if they were amalgamated together in a one-cost-shared, co-joined type of facility. It will add economic generation and diversification. It's very important in smaller communities like Quesnel to recognize that diversification is not just economic but people diversification, drawing together a cross-section of the public that would co-share and visit. Such a facility will offer a wide range of social, economic and cultural benefits to the community. These could be various athletic championships, conventions, small trade shows or political events that have the potential to generate considerable economic benefits and spinoffs for the community.

You're going to ask me somewhere, in about three or four minutes from now: "Why should the provincial government invest in this?" [Laughter.]

The provincial government, we think, should be a partner in this, and the federal government and local governments should equally share a role in the construction of this type of facility in our community.

We think it's a good time to invest in small rural Canada, small rural British Columbia. For many, many years communities such as Quesnel have contributed a considerable sum to the province's economic base. We are a resource-based community, and that's going to change. We're not going to go away from resources; things will come along as they always have in the Cariboo. I've only lived here for 30 years. It's amazing how things keep changing, and we keep plugging along. We think it's a good time to invest in small rural British Columbia.

We think that the mountain pine beetle has forced communities like Quesnel, who will probably be hardest hit, to take a really serious look at how they can diversify and look for economic opportunities. We've talked about this for many years, but now the reality is five to seven years away. We think a facility like this can be a showpiece, something the community can be proud of. It can contribute to the retention of people in our community. Ed Coleman talked about workers, about people coming to be educated in a trades portion of the new college and about their families moving here with them. What's going to keep them?

Whether we like it or not, and it's a fact, Quesnel is in competition with all the other 25,000-to-30,000-size communities right throughout British Columbia and western Canada, for that matter. Our lifestyle is going to change. We're trying to create a social environment that has the amenities that will retain our senior people, which is the fastest-growing portion of our population in Quesnel, and that will continue to attract other businesses to invest in and set up here because there will be amenities that will support their employees.

All we need to do is take a look around the province at Parksville, with their facility being built there; Chilliwack, Prospera Centre; what's being planned in Fort St. John; the recent construction in Dawson Creek and other communities. This is our future. This facility will need to be carefully planned and integrated into our community infrastructure so that it will support us over the next 30 to 50 years — just as, as I said earlier, the other arena had made its own specific contribution.

We think that in a perfect world, on paper one-third of this could be funded by various grants, amenities and other support systems from the federal government; one-third from the provincial government; and one-third from local taxation. We know from our analysis and surveys of what the taxation rate would be in our own community that the public is quite prepared to support a tax rate of $100 on $100,000 of assessed value. When we do the math on that, it means that we can come up with about $10 million to $12 million on this project, but we don't have the leverage right now to get the other money.

We have some money in place already. We've done pre-taxation through the Cariboo regional district — which will, by the end of next year, have achieved just under $1 million for us. We have an agreement-in-principle for getting $2 million shared 50-50 with the Northern Development Initiative Trust. This is really relative to the entire cost of the project, which we think will be somewhere between $26 million and $30 million — relatively small.

When we take a look at the proposal for the new comprehensive arena and other facilities being proposed for Langley, that's going to be an opportunity to showcase wood products manufacturing and various types of wood things in Langley — though I haven't seen many pine forests down there. We think that this is an opportunity to do a similar type of thing in the north.

Quesnel has long served the forest industry of British Columbia in a very positive manner and will continue to do so, even though it will be in a reduced form and perhaps a changed format, over the next number of years. This is going to be part and parcel of a comprehensive plan in our community that a large number of people have come together on — what's called the 2020 project — looking at the key infrastructure components that will set Quesnel in a position so that this community will continue to thrive and flourish.

Quesnel is not going to disappear, as somebody on CBC One mentioned about a week ago on the radio. It's not going to disappear. It is going to continue as a solid and vibrant program. Whether that's oil and gas development out west, continued mining development to the east or a critical role in the infrastructure of transportation as we look towards the Highway 16 east-west corridor, Quesnel will be here.

We think that this is an opportunity to invest in our future — perhaps only a one-time investment in the next 20 or 30 years that will allow this community to continue to use that northern British Columbia rural pioneer spirit to keep this community alive and vibrant for not only the current generation but many generations to come.

J. Kwan: Actually, sure. It's a similar question to what I would ask the other group as well.

This is basically an infrastructure grant that you're seeking, which would be the soft infrastructure component — one-third, one-third, one-third — with provincial, federal and local governments coming in with their source of funding. I gather that you have your support from the local MLA. Have you approached your federal representative, and what is their response?

R. Hay: Yeah, our economic development corporation just finished meeting with the federal MP, and he's highly behind this project. He sees it as a priority in our riding. In fact, there will be further discussions on different types of federal infrastructure involvements and identification of funds that we can apply for.

We most definitely discussed it with our local MLA — a member of the opposition — and he supports this project as part and parcel of the comprehensive redevelopment of all of the projects in the greater Quesnel–Central Cariboo region. We feel we have excellent local, provincial and federal support on this, certainly in principle, Ms. Kwan.

J. Kwan: Given today's presentations, and we've had three — the Multi-Centre Task Force presentation on this one; the Quesnel Museum and Heritage Commission, which is calling for about $11 million; and then the North Cariboo Post-Secondary Education and Training Council, which is calling for about $3.5 million — have there been thoughts of putting together the package as a comprehensive approach to economic development for Quesnel and the region in that vein? Therefore, put it forward to eliminate the notion that it's somehow competing but, rather, that it's complementary in supporting the diversity of the capacity that Quesnel is looking for.

R. Hay: I'll answer the question by not answering it. Later this afternoon or this evening you're going to hear from Jim Savage, who's in charge of the Quesnel Economic Development Corporation. I know that Jim has worked extensively with the city of Quesnel on securing and identifying funding for these very ideas.

Formalization of a comprehensive application, as you've suggested…. I can't answer that because that's not in my domain, and I'm not on that decision timetable thing. Yes, it makes sense. We're not competing, the three projects. I'll be very blunt. I'm very much in favour of these three projects.

I take a look at Olds, Alberta, and what the agricultural school did to that community. Without Olds College, there would be three elevators, a couple of farmhouses, two dogs and an old pickup truck in Alberta there. That's it. Olds College is Olds, Alberta. Have you been there?

R. Hay: Those ones are coming down because they're not drilling there anymore.

The key thing here is that the college is not the answer for Quesnel. The centre that Ms. Townsend presented is not the answer for Quesnel, but these three projects combined together….

I'll be fairly forward. Come up with $25 million, and we'll find a way of dividing it between the three groups to lever money out of the federal government and our local governments. Quesnel is going to be well-positioned for the next 20 to 40 years. It will be a huge boost in the direction of this economy and our community.

J. Horgan: Thank you, Robin, and Lorna as well. I consider Quesnel kind of a second home for me. I visit here every year. I've watched hockey games in the rink, and it's past due. I don't disagree with that for a second.

The notion of a cultural-recreational precinct, combining the two, is certainly a first start. The college is a bit further away, so you don't have that geographic linkage. But in my community of Langford just outside of Victoria we had a challenge for our arena, and we did the local fundraising. We did the boostering that you're doing, and eventually we succeeded. The payback to the economy is virtually incalculable because of the spinoffs that flow from that.

My question would be…. You have an MP from the governing party — the new government of Canada, although it's getting a bit tattered around the edges. There is a significant federal surplus; we have a significant provincial surplus. The minister has said that infrastructure projects are a priority for her. We will certainly be going back and recommending that.

What is the word from the federal government and your local MP in terms of not, "Gee, we'll see how it goes after the next election" but: "How about before the next election"? Where's the money from the feds?

R. Hay: My understanding in talking with Jim Savage about an hour ago this evening is that the money from the feds is a high priority right now and that he will be furthering those discussions with the MP Dick Harris to look at which grants and which sources of infrastructure funding are available to apply prior to the next election.

We're not on a time line to wait till the next election. Actually, on my time line we're about a year or two behind. It's to go as quick as we can. We've done an extensive amount of legwork and preparation for this project.

If you don't mind me adding, MLA Horgan, I do like…. You're right. The culture-sporting-social precinct area of Quesnel is going to be critical to the future of our community. This is slowly happening, but we do need to see it come together in a timely fashion — timely fashion because the Canadian dollar right now, certainly for some short foreseeable future, is going to be favourable for construction in Canada. Timely because we have the resources and the desire in our community right now to keep this going. Timely because we have a window of opportunity on federal funding for projects like this that we've probably never seen in the last 20 years collectively from the various levels of government.

B. Bennett (Chair): Robin, thank you very much for your presentation. It was very impressive. Thank you for that.

Welcome to the committee, Mr. Savage. We look forward to your presentation. I don't know if you were here when I went over the time lines, but we try and get the presentations in within ten minutes and then leave five minutes for questions.

J. Savage: Thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee members, for the opportunity. What you have in front of you is a very, very truncated version of our local major plan in light of the pine beetle. The mayor a little while ago gave the first part of the presentation in a way, in terms of the context — the community's contributions over time, net, to provincial and federal treasuries.

This is a pretty bold plan. We've been working on it for several years now. As I think you know, the scope of the challenge we're facing is huge. There are thousands of jobs at risk, apparently, and therefore, the plan needs to be similarly aggressive. I'm going to highlight just a few things on these three pages.

The first place I want to start is the principles that the board of directors I report to has adopted. One of them is…. Although it appears likely that things like mining and oil and gas may happen in the region and there is a lot of support for that, we have very little influence over that as a community. Therefore, we need to focus on things with our meagre resources that we can actually influence, like the look and feel of the community, to help keep people here who would otherwise retire away or to attract footloose entrepreneurs who can choose to have their businesses anywhere because they're web-based.

Secondly, encouraging private investment is really key to this, obviously. We see public investment as being a key lever to help that happen, as happens in large urban areas.

Thirdly, we want, wherever we can, to align with provincial and federal priorities — for example, the Gateway project. There are some things around that that we can tie into. Climate change initiatives. There are a number of projects that we have in mind here that would be win-win-wins all the way around. We don't want to be stupid about this. We know that we want to help advance provincial and federal objectives as well as our own.

There are some vision statements, some goals, that we've adopted in seven different areas. I won't read them out, but they are in areas that we think we have some competitive advantage — in some areas greater than others.

It's all in the context of a green city vision. I know that that's a more popular expression these days. When we started with this, it wasn't quite so popular. But we believe that with the appropriate investments we can sort of leapfrog ahead in terms of infrastructure that consumes the least amount of energy possible, that produces the least carbon dioxide possible and so on.

Then there are seven action areas that seem to make sense. Most of that is pretty obvious — all the sectoral stuff around forestry, agriculture, tourism, all that sort of stuff. There are a number of advantages that we have here. There are some things we don't have advantages in here that don't make much sense to pursue.

A couple that I do want to highlight are government investment in facilities that meet your objectives. Putting the B.C. Lottery Corporation office in Kamloops, for example, was clearly done — at least, apparently — for economic development objectives. Federally, putting the national tax office in Summerside…. This happens all the time and, with modern technology, it is feasible to do this.

It seems…. I won't say it's an easy one for government but maybe easier than some of the other things that are possible if you look at it over a ten-year period. Our government jobs have gradually been stripped away

over the last 20 or 30 years. There is very, very little provincial or federal infrastructure left in Quesnel.

Of course, transportation infrastructure is a really high priority for the community. The north-south connector, or the truck route, as people call it, could be connected to the Gateway plan. With the Prince Rupert port opening up, there seems to be some sense in removing that bottleneck. There are several other examples, such as the proposal to twin Highway 97, which for my board is something they haven't let go of. They think that's a very important project.

Robin, Lorna and Director Glassford have spoken to some of the cultural and recreational amenities. As I think some or all of you know, that amenity attraction — the idea that there are urbanities that would be very interested in living in a community like Quesnel, who don't mind the four seasons…. If there are certain amenities in place, certain improvements to health care, it would help them understand that it's okay to live in a place like this.

This is real economic development. Some folks have trouble getting their heads around it, but it is very real. As the chamber of commerce perhaps mentioned, we've had quite an onslaught of people — fairly well off people — moving to Quesnel even in the last year. It's been quite extraordinary and all based on perceived amenities and quality of life.

There are some very practical things that we can do here — that every community can do — to improve on that, that make good sense. I want to highlight that.

I've already spoken to transportation infrastructure. On the last page…. In terms of estimated cost over ten years, not including worker adjustment, we're very roughly estimating in the neighbourhood of $230 million.

Now a good chunk of that, something like half, is really provincial infrastructure. The truck route, the north-south connector, that's an $80 million bill right there, as estimated some years ago, so it's probably higher — again, a provincial priority. Is that for Quesnel, or is that really a provincial project? We think it's a provincial project that would help us a great deal.

As the mayor mentioned, that's less than two years' net contribution to the federal and provincial treasuries. This is really a drop in the bucket compared to what Quesnel and other communities like it contribute year after year after year, net.

We are starting to talk to anybody who'll listen about Quesnel as a…. It's a pumping station — let's face it — for national and provincial treasuries, and the pump looks like it's got some problems.

With some really assertive investments by the provincial and federal governments, we're confident that we can turn this around over the next decade and become, again, a very strong net-wealth generator for the country and the province.

The mayor touched on maybe some practical realities of why it would be hard to find $230 million, given the competition from urban areas. The concept of the Fair Share–type program which has already been implemented elsewhere is becoming more and more important to us as maybe a practical way to go forward based on wealth that is being generated.

Further, in conclusion, we get it that governments invest in propositions like the Vancouver Trade and Convention Centre — maybe that's not the best one to mention. Governments invest in huge soft infrastructure projects all the time, presumably based on solid business plans. All we need is the opportunity to present our own solid business plans at our scale. We are hard at work doing that.

It's our responsibility to put our best case forward, our best business plan forward. The projects that have been mentioned here tonight are all part of this overall vision. We want it to be as practical as possible. We're doing our very best to do that. You can expect some very hard-hitting, big-scale proposals from us and other communities in the very, very near future.

B. Simpson: Let me try and weave a couple of things together here before I get to your question.

The immediacy issue has come up a couple of times. Robin said five to eight years or so. As you and I chatted briefly, the chief forester has now said that in five years we'll start to see the falldown. The real estate investment network said five years. We're beginning to get that axe on the near horizon. It's not on the long horizon.

The other issue that we've got in here is the whole, "How do we stabilize these communities?" because I agree with you that personal capital and so on…. We've got some folks in the agricultural community who are going to speak to us next, who need some stabilizing of that community as well.

Then the Chair's comments about one-off projects coming to Treasury Board — that's not normally how it's done. It's program dollars that come there, and then the one-offs are part of the program.

The final comment is that here in town, as Jenny rolled up, we have a whole bunch of projects on the go. I could roll in the circle route, the Prouton Lake route, I could get a circle route around Barkerville. There's a bunch more. We have all these funds floating around.

Is it time for the government, as you've indicated, under a Fair Share program of some kind, to say, "We need a mountain pine beetle community impact infrastructure fund," so that we've got a dedicated program that somebody can go to Treasury Board and argue for on behalf of all of these communities, that is available as of next budget and that we can actually roll up, in our community, all of these things, as Jenny or Randy had suggested?

Then we've got some place to go that is explicitly to address community sustainability and stability in the mountain pine beetle–impacted area. Is that a reasonable request?

J. Savage: I wouldn't say no. That would be a stunning announcement if that was presented. I think you're hearing from many people that some sort of

regional control over the wealth that is pouring into the urban areas is a no-brainer from our point of view. Easy for us to say, though.

R. Hawes: Good presentation in terms of a great overall plan. It's good to see that you have an overall plan like this. I guess my question would be…. You mentioned business plans. I heard three capital requests, but I haven't seen a business plan.

I was a mayor for three terms in the city I lived in. I can tell you that there was a big push to get a community theatre, but we got it. When we got it — 700 seats; it's a wonderful theatre — everybody looked at each other and said: "Now, how are we going to run it? We have no money."

The theatre went dark, to be honest with you. It has remained dark, and it's opened from time to time. People can rent. It's there for rent if people want to rent the theatre. It isn't run like a community theatre because there was no thought given, with all of the partners aware, to saying: "Let's have some ongoing operating plans." That didn't happen.

We built a part of a school, actually, and then the university…. The municipality wanted to build a new rec centre — an ice rink and all the things…. Similar. It went off the rails. This was last year. The $12 million expansion turned out to be a $22 million expansion that bled the reserves of the city often. They're in terrible trouble there. There was a new library built with the museum, etc., attached to it, and year by year by year, the requests for operating funding from the city have increased.

These projects come with huge demands for operating capital, as I'm sure you know.

R. Hawes: I'm just wondering: if these don't bear the economic payback, what's the capacity of the local taxpayer to bear the costs of all of these projects.

Lastly, I would say, because the last presenter did mention Chilliwack as having a new arena…. Theirs was built as a P3. I don't know if you've looked at that, but that offloads the capital portion. Chilliwack looked at what the operating costs were going to be, and they felt they could sustain them, but they didn't have to worry about the capital portion.

J. Savage: Thanks for that. We've had a very, very strong focus on all the things that you've mentioned in terms of the long-range sustainability. We'd be crazy not to, given what we're facing. There have been detailed feasibility studies and business plans done for all the projects mentioned tonight, and more. We have a number of funding proposals out to do more business case analyses.

As a matter of fact, both Robin and I are here from a technical presentation by Jonathan Huggett, who some of you probably know, on: "Get your head straight. It's going to cost you a lot more to maintain it than to build it." So we're very focused on that.

The green city organizing principle applies here too. We're quite confident that with existing technology, we can have a facility that will cost us less to operate for smaller facilities now. Even something that will actually generate energy. So we're really, really focused on that.

In fact the multi-centre business case analysis that was just done included, specifically, a tax base risk analysis. Three scenarios: worst case, medium and an "everything's flowers" case. So we're very focused on this; otherwise, we'd be blown out of the water by people closer than you.

B. Bennett (Chair): Well, listen, thank you very much. Let me take this opportunity as Chair of the committee to commend you and your organization but also to commend the presenters, the witnesses that came before you, most of whom are gone, I think. Not all of them — I notice there's still at least one councillor here.

I come from a city that's very, very similar to Quesnel. We built our RecPlex — our $23 million public-private partnership RecPlex — in Cranbrook. It was a struggle to get it going and to keep it going, but — you're absolutely right — it's really been sort of the centrepiece of the remaking of our community.

We're probably about ten years ahead of where you're at, but I'm really impressed, and I'm sure committee members are impressed, with all of the ideas that are out there in Quesnel, all of the projects that we've heard about here today.

It's difficult for government. We do have to prioritize. I know that you all live in a relatively small community. You say, "We don't want to compete with one another," and I understand why you say that. But from government's point of view, things do have to be prioritized, so that's something that we have to deal with in government.

Nonetheless, the enthusiasm, the ideas and the dedication of volunteers that we've heard here today is very, very impressive. So thanks very much.

R. Hawes: Bob talked about the impending axe. I think Bob mentioned the axe or something that's five years down the road. Personally, I think every one of us is just blown away with how positive everybody is here in the face of what you're looking at. I think you can't help but succeed, personally, because you've got exactly the right kind of attitude. It's great.

J. Savage: Samuel Johnson's comment comes to mind, about the mind being concentrated by the knowledge you're going to be hanged in the morning.

If I may just leave one quick summation, there is a lot of commentary around the province that we and other communities like us are toast. I had one gentleman, an elected municipal official from the Okanagan, say: "You're going down. We need your skilled workers." This is in a public session.

One of the things that we've become very excited about, even in the last year, is realizing how amazing

the resources we have are, even from a land-based point of view or from a global point of view. If you look at what's happening with oil prices, climate change, we have a stunning resource here that we're confident can be capitalized on in a new and a sustainable way.

Members of the committee, we actually have two presenters, two witnesses, left. We've got Lebrun Ranch Ltd., and then there's Mr. Kameron Goring, who is going to present under the open mike. So if we could have Lebrun Ranch come forward.

L. Lebrun: I have it written down here. I'll try to just read it out, I guess.

First of all, I wish to give you a little background information. We moved to Quesnel 30 years ago and purchased 145 acres of raw land. Over the years we developed this land and acquired two more parcels, for a total of 370 acres.

In conjunction with developing a heavy-duty-equipment repair business, we developed the land and purchased some cattle. By 1999 we had a herd of 100 breeding cows. At this point, calf prices were reasonable: $1.23 per pound, average.

As it was increasingly difficult for us to carry on both businesses, we decided to go full-time ranching and allow our son to take over the repair business. We then purchased more cows, increasing the herd to 170 breeding cows plus a replacement heifer.

The year 2000 brought us an average of $1.49 per pound for a calf. The year 2001 saw $1.43 per pound — a mature cow at that time was bringing us 49 cents to 66 cents — and 2002 saw a big decline in calf prices: $1.12 per pound. The cause for the decline, we were told, was due to the drought in Alberta — a shortage of feed for feedlots. Cow prices were still averaging at 56 cents per pound.

Then came mad cow. Cow prices went down as low as eight cents per pound; calf prices, $1.06. In 2004 calf prices averaged 89 cents per pound. When we sold our calves in 2006, we came home with $10,000 less than for the same amount of calves, same quality, the year before. In 2005 the same deal, so…

L. Lebrun: …$15,000 under the previous year, adding all this big deficit, overall, to $80,000, which was not needed and of no fault of our own — at least, I think so.

Now we will address cost production — to name a few items. In 2003 we were paying 43 cents per litre for our farm-marked diesel; in June 2006, 79 cents per litre. In July of the same year, it was up to 85 cents per litre. Fertilizer prices doubled over the same period of time. At $600 per tonne, we did not fertilize our field. Then the cost of repair for the machinery to keep it running. There I do all the labour myself. I don't hire anybody to do the fixing, because I have been a fixing man all along. On top of that, we're still one short.

We have become a verified beef producer, hoping that our extra efforts in providing safe food would pay off. We were following the protocol anyway, without knowing. However, we have yet to see extra return for our efforts. Government funding for various situations does not benefit the producer. In many situations it's only a small band-aid solution. Those administrating the program, I'm sure, get paid very well.

In our opinion, in order to have positive change, we offer a few suggestions. First, markets at stockyard have to improve to reflect the cost of operation. As I understand, markets are set by CanFax. Government should investigate and find out why prices are so low. From our calculations, it cost us $1.60 per pound to raise a calf to 550 pounds and to maintain its mother. The calf, when we sell it, has got to cover all the costs that are incurred on that farm. This does not allow us income for our hard work. Many of the cows going to sale today should bring no less than 70 cents per pound.

There were three projects our government failed to support which would have greatly helped the producer, the first one being the Peace Country Tender Beef Co-op. The co-op did a membership drive and obtained many members interested in marketing directly to them. Animals were to be slaughtered and processed, the return going directly to the producer.

The federal government at that time was to participate and contribute 50 cents for each dollar of producer share that was put in. That plan was cancelled. Our B.C. government also backed down from any support. That left no alternative for the co-op to seek funding elsewhere. The co-op is still trying to obtain funds. It would be great news for all the co-op members to have a government support us on this venture.

Second. The next project is closer to home. Kawano Farms from Prince George saw the need for a local government-inspected facility. As they were already in the slaughter business, they expanded their facility. After three years of food inspection re-audit, they finally became licensed last January. We therefore bring some animals there for slaughter and processing, but we need to market our product ourselves. We are producers first, not retailers.

However, we have been going to the Quesnel farmers' market. Only about 10 percent of the people who go to the market actually acknowledge my presence and purchase beef product. Now, there is only one other producer selling beef. If all producers were trying this method of marketing, no one would succeed.

I wonder why the retailers, like J&D Meat and others, could not purchase our meat for resale. Believe me; I have contacted just about every restaurant and small corner store in town. They're all not interested in supporting local producers. There should be legislation obliging stores to buy local product. I am sure it would be coordinated for supply, if they so desire. The retailers also need to realize that producers need to earn a decent income in order to survive.

Third. Blue Mountain in Salmon Arm opened a slaughter facility shortly after BSE. They sold shares to the tune of $5,000 per share — to be able to kill 25 mature animals for that one $5,000 share. That plant had to shut down as it was costing them over $70,000 per month to dispose of the guts and all the materials they had to throw away. My understanding is that these had to be trucked to Calgary of all places. Our government did not interfere and provide a location for composting, thus saving this cost and enabling the operation to continue.

The CAIS program for us was of no benefit. We did not qualify. Family farm option was applied for and received. However, the funds went to buy feed for the cows — a total joke in itself. I have been working out since last fall to make ends meet, to support the cows. We can no longer continue this way. We have decided to disperse our herd this fall.

I am here today to tell you our story so that maybe change can be made to help a few younger couples who are trying to make a living ranching and to carry on. For us, we have reached the end — done deal. That's it.

J. Cameron: Well, I have some statistics to back up what Leo was saying. I wasn't quite sure how we were to approach you and let the numbers come out.

Y. Lebrun: John is our accountant. He does the accounting for many producers in the area.

J. Cameron: It's really brief. It's just some statistics that I was able to find, because like Leo I'm involved in the cattle business, but mine is down with my brother-in-law in the Okanagan.

Just some statistics that I was able to bring up from our…. We had the Options program presented to us, and we had to confirm some numbers. In the cattle industry in British Columbia, there's only 280,000 head of cattle, with about 5,000 producers that market over $2,500 of beef cattle, which for all intents and purpose is 5.9 percent of the whole beef industry in Canada.

The cattle and calf cash-receipts business in B.C. is about $355 million, and the beef cattle business is not centred in the Fraser Valley.

Probably since BSE started in May 2003, the effect on the Canadian beef industry has been $7 billion. The cattle business relates on cycles — the cattle inventory, the production cycle and the price cycle. Any years where there are five or six in the year, production is high in the five and six, but the prices are low. The theory is that the high production is going to return from now till about 2015, but these people can't wait.

The rest of my points. As my boys all went through 4-H, I always thought a demonstration was better, so I did bring some samples along for you people to realize…. I don't know. Do you realize what a roll of barbed wire costs? Do you have any idea? Anyone? It's $70 a bundle, and that's a quarter-mile of wire.

Quart of oil, $3.60. Staples to put up the fence, $2.69 a pound. Two-and-a-quarter-inch spikes, $2.27 a pound. Mr. Lebrun's beef that I packaged up this morning, one pound retail at Margetts Meat Market in Williams Lake is $3.39. Leo's price on the farm, 87 cents. He can't compete with any of the products that he needs to support his business.

Some of the relative cash numbers in the last 14 years…. In the last 14 years the price of his selling has dropped five cents overall. The 2006 Canadian cattle price average was 86.9 cents, and in 1992 it was 91 cents. It's a drop of five cents.

I bought my fat cattle on January 1 for $1.05. I was fishing in Bella Coola with the stockyard's Al Smith, who is going to sell for 90 cents. So I've taken a 15-cent drop on my cattle. That's what I have.

B. Bennett (Chair): What percentage or portion of your revenues over the course of the year at the Lebrun Ranch or at your ranch are farm-gate sales? Do you do some butchering on your own right now?

Y. Lebrun: We don't do butchering on the farm. Our animals are all brought to Kawano Farms in Prince George because they are a government-inspected facility. It's against the law to sell from our farm gate, for one thing. So we bring our animals there, and then we bring it back home and sell it to different people.

B. Bennett (Chair): Did you have farm-gate sales before the rules changed recently?

B. Bennett (Chair): In the Cariboo and in the north Cariboo, are farm-gate sales a big part of what cattle ranchers do?

Y. Lebrun: The sales are all pretty well to B.C. Livestock, Williams Lake, or else people truck their cattle to Alberta. We've tried that, too, but the cost of trucking is horrendous.

J. Cameron: The last three years has been a drought condition. Crop production is about 60 percent of what it was three years ago.

Y. Lebrun: At Lebrun's? No, we don't. We're not close enough to any of the Crown lands to be able to have Crown range. It's just our private….

L. Lebrun: We rent pasture from other private people. One year we get one good pasture. The next year, we might not get it. That's been a yo-yo for the last ten years, that part.

A couple of comments on MLA Bennett's questions. The other issue with Crown range up here is of course that most of it is mountain-pine-beetle-impacted. You can't range it anymore because you've got danger trees on there or you've got debris scattered all over. So there's a lot more to this.

On the farm-gate sales. It is huge here, not necessarily at the level of the herd you have. People with one or two or three who now can't do their farm-gate sales — that's where the impact level comes in, at that juncture.

I've got two questions, and it doesn't matter who answers them. I really appreciate you guys coming in. Yvonne and I had a discussion at the farmers' market, and I said: "You should come and talk to us about this."

The first question is: are other people in this situation? You said that you're going to disperse your herd. Is that what's going to start happening now? Are other people going to be forced into that?

Y. Lebrun: For an answer to that one, you should probably talk to Wilf Smith or Al Smith at B.C. Livestock in Williams Lake.

B. Simpson: I'm hearing that founding families — people who have been at this game for generations — are in that position.

The second question is: when the Minister of Agriculture says that we're going to grow agriculture as a way to offset what's happening with the mountain pine beetle…. We've seen in a couple of presentations here today that agriculture is going to be a way that we can offset the impact of the mountain pine beetle. Leo, what goes through your mind?

L. Lebrun: How is that going to happen? We can't make it the way the system is right now. Unless the system of marketing your cattle changes, my guess is that in the short while there won't be too many, because you can't make it. You have to have another big job supporting this cow business from someplace else.

I've been through that myself. We established a farm, and I worked two jobs. I ran the machine shop, did the machining, and I worked till midnight to keep that running. Pretty soon we decided that the price is not bad and we should retire and move into farming. It's the biggest mistake I ever made in my life.

B. Simpson: Unfortunately, many of the people who have those second jobs are in harvesting or in the mills. Correct?

B. Bennett (Chair): Leo, Yvonne and John, we appreciate your coming here today and telling us your story.

I am intimately familiar with the ranching industry in the Kootenays. I know exactly what you're facing, and I have great empathy with you.

L. Lebrun: That has to be rectified right there. The cost of production has got to come out first, because when John pointed to the can of oil…. The cost of producing that oil is on its head. So is the nail and staple.

Kameron, you are in what we call the open-mike part of the program here today. We're right at the end of our day. We're a little bit behind, but that's okay. We're going to give you your five minutes.

K. Goring: Okay. I'm just here to make a little comment or two about the mountain pine beetle, because I remember that last year Mr. Simpson came to QS to talk to my class about it. I was thinking about that the whole summer.

We were talking about: what if we burn hectares of the forest? But they said they wouldn't because it would take too long to grow back — right? So I was

thinking: what if you had a controlled fire? It would burn through so many hectares….

K. Goring: All right. If you think about it, if you burn so many hectares, it would be worth it in the long run when, say, the mills would stay open. If I get older and I have kids, my kids can get a job in the mill. There will still be mills open. It should decrease the mountain pine beetle population. There are so many. They are killing all our trees. If you burn it, they should go back down to normal.

K. Goring: Yeah, more controlled burns to stop them from maybe attacking other trees, getting adapted to other trees and then wiping those off. It's like the pine trees are almost gone.

I was thinking about it. I saw presentations. About five years from now, most of Quesnel, Prince George, the Williams Lake area are going to be infested. If you let it burn, that probably wouldn't happen five years from now.

B. Bennett (Chair): It's a good suggestion. Thank you for it. We appreciate it.

J. Kwan: I don't have a question, but I just want to make a comment. I think it's so cool that you're here today and that you've been thinking about this issue all summer, just because someone — your local MLA — popped it into your head.

I just want to say thank you. That's great. And you waited to get on a list, and that's just so cool. Thanks for doing that.

B. Bennett (Chair): Okay. We're adjourning this committee, and we're headed to Terrace. Thank you so much, everyone, for participating. And those who didn't participate, who sat through all of this, I admire you.

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1)	Quesnel and District Chamber of Commerce	Michael Boreen
		Coralee Oakes
2)	City of Quesnel	Mayor Nate Bello
3)	Child Care Resource and Referral Programs	Pat Colbourne
		Donna Legere
4)	Quesnel and District Community Arts Council	Bernice Heinzelman
5)	Seniors Advocacy Service	Susan MacNeill
6)	North Cariboo Post Secondary Education Trades & Training Council	Mary Glassford
		Doug Larsen
		Ed Coleman
7)	Quesnel Museum and Heritage Commission	Lorna Townsend
8)	Multi-Centre Task Force	Robin Hay
9)	Quesnel Community and Economic Development Corporation	Jim Savage
10)	Lebrun Ranch Limited	Leo Lebrun
		Yvonne Lebrun
		John Cameron
11)	Kameron Goring

Committee Staff:	Jonathan Fershau (Committee Research Analyst)
	Jacqueline Quesnel (Commitees Assistant)

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