2005 Legislative Session: First Session, 38th Parliament
SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES
MINUTES AND HANSARD

MINUTES SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES Tuesday, October 4, 2005 6 p.m. Douglas Fir Committee Room Parliament Buildings, Victoria, B.C.

The following electronic version is for informational purposes only.
The printed version remains the official version.

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS
(Hansard)

SELECT STANDING COMMITTEE ON 
FINANCE AND GOVERNMENT SERVICES

TUESDAY, OCTOBER 4, 2005

ISSN 1499-4178

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TUESDAY, OCTOBER 4, 2005

           The committee met at 6:03 p.m.

           [B. Lekstrom in the chair.]

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): Good evening, members. I would like to call this meeting of the Select Standing Committee on Finance and Government Services to order. I would like to welcome our Minister of Finance, the Hon. Carole Taylor, to our meeting this evening. Welcome, Carole.

           We will begin our consultation process on Friday of this week with our first hearings here in Victoria. It was certainly felt to be very important that we had the opportunity to hear from the minister about the prebudget consultation paper that you put forward. The Legislative Assembly has mandated us to tour the province and speak with British Columbians and report back by the 15th of November. We're looking forward to this opportunity. I think it is going to be a great experience for all of us.

           At this time I would like to turn the microphone over to you to address the committee about the paper. Following that, if there are any questions from members of the committee, I would entertain those.

           Again, welcome.

Presentation by Minister of Finance

           Hon. C. Taylor: Thank you very much. I appreciate it, Chair.

           I'd like to thank everyone for taking on this responsibility. I think we all know that this is very big, on top of all of the responsibilities everyone has in the House at this time. It also is one of the reasons why I know Blair has tried very hard to work as many of the locations as he can into a schedule that's already very tight. So I thank you for taking this on. It's a really big load.

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           And for sure, absolutely for sure, we can't do everything all at once. What you will hear as you go out into the community, I'm sure, are lots of different ideas of how we should be spending. I doubt that you'll get very many suggestions of what we should cut. That's one of the things I would bring to mind and hope that it comes up as part of your discussions out in the community.

           I'm not content to let individuals say that we just need more money for A, whatever A is. If they're really going to participate and really want to have an influence, then part of the discussion has to be, "And therefore less for — what?" or more taxes or more debt. I mean, we have various tools we can use as a finance department or a government creating a budget.

           What I've tried to do, even with the paper — you'll notice the questions — is get people to think about the trade-offs. For the first time, I've actually asked people to rank various issues and spending possibilities. In the past it's just been: "What do you want us to spend money on?" It might be health care, or it might be education. It depends on the family.

           What I would like to stimulate everywhere in the province around dinner tables is a discussion about how you would rank it. I'd like the father of the family to say, "Well, I think it should be this order," and the mother of the family to say this, and the kids to say: "Well, I think a different order really reflects my priorities." If we can in any way provoke that kind of thinking and recognition about the complexity of what you're doing, I think we will all be further ahead.

           We'll learn more for sure, but I also think that for whomever is in government, it is essential you have the community coming along with you so that they do understand what some of the trade-offs are or why there are trade-offs. That's really the context. The bigger financial imperative, and you've seen the numbers in the budget, is that we don't have unlimited money. Even though last year and this year have been very good, I think if we're reading the papers at all, we know where the vulnerabilities are.

           The commodity prices are vulnerable. Forestry certainly is an issue. Real estate is not going to continue the kind of growth that we saw in the past couple of years. There are a number of areas which suggest to me that we had better be somewhat cautious, but even with our current budget update that we just released, you'll see that next year the surplus was $600 million and, the year after, $400 million.

           So for any increase in spending that we might decide to do in the February budget, you have to look at what will be sustainable going out the three or the five years. If you make spending commitments, those are ongoing commitments. They're not just one-year issues. "What can we support going out those years?" is really the question for individuals to think about.

           There are opportunities, as we've done this year when the surplus is larger, to reduce our debt somewhat. I think everyone, whichever party, wants us to make sure that we're building the hospitals and the roads we need. To the extent that you can come back with your report and bring some complexity to this issue and some thoughtful ideas about trade-offs or new ideas — we do get new ideas from the consultation process — I would be a very grateful Minister of Finance.

           The budget consultation process is one of the ways that we get ideas for how we'll go forward, but I do have a feeling that in the past it's been hard to get regional input. That's very important to me, not just to know what Vancouver thinks. I mean, I need to know what people around the province think.

           I also need to know what our multicultural communities think, and I think that is one area we have let

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down in the past. One of the things I've done is printed up the budget consultation papers in traditional Chinese, simplified Chinese and Punjabi. I have boxes of these that I'll deliver to the Clerk's office for you to take with you. To the extent that whenever I'm interviewed or have a chance to do an article…. I'm trying to encourage the multicultural communities to come out and speak as well or, if they don't feel comfortable speaking, to at least put it in writing and get it into the process.

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           If we can do those two things better than we've done them in the past, I think we'll all benefit — more regional voices and multicultural voices. I know that Blair is aware of this and is trying very hard to make sure we do that. This is a provincial government, and we have to represent all the people in this province but also all of the areas of this province when we build it.

           I'm very grateful to you for doing this extra work. I'm happy, if you would like me, to speak on anything in particular that you see in the consultation paper or anything that you're not quite sure about.

           Chair, I'm in your hands.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): Well, thank you very much, minister, for coming this evening. I know that all of us have busy schedules, and certainly yours is one that is filled with many, many hours each day as well.

           I will look to members of the committee, if they have any questions of the minister.

           M. Karagianis (Deputy Chair): Minister, one of the things that has been a bit of an obstacle is, of course, that we're starting the process much later than has been done in the past. The past standing committee tour has taken in, generally, a couple of months and has visited many more cities and towns than what we're going to be able to do now.

           I'm wondering if you have any concerns about a much more diminished process this time as far as visiting communities, because we do know — I think all of us who have worked in government — that you don't always get the written submissions that you would wish. Often they need to be prompted by that appearance in their town or city.

           Do you feel in some way that we may not, in fact, be getting the best representation by not making it to as many corners of the province?

           Hon. C. Taylor: I'm hopeful that you'll come back and say to me that you're satisfied with the process, but I would take your advice at the end of this — what you think, having been through it in this fashion. I'm trying to do some extra things to help and support. For instance, the Web, we think, will be much more broadly used this time. Everywhere I go, I'm leaving information for people as to how they can submit written or come and speak to you.

           I think that a number of us are trying to get the message out, more broadly than special interest groups. Special interest groups, whatever side, know how to do this. I'm really interested in British Columbians and what they feel about this. I give speeches quite often, and I have people asking afterwards, and they say: "Well, I don't really want to come and speak at the mike." That's absolutely fine. They have to know that there's a comfortable way of still having their opinions known.

           The other thing I've asked, and I'm trying to set it up, but the complications are enormous…. I've looked at your schedule. I've tried to back it up a week to see if…. For instance, you're going to Kamloops. The week before, if there's some way that I could either do a phone-in show or an editorial board that says to people: "This is the process. These people are coming to your town. Please come, show up and listen — even if you don't want to present — and participate in that process…." I'm trying to get to different people the idea that this committee is important for them and that they have a chance to have a voice.

           We're trying from a few other directions to support what you're doing. I would expect and appreciate that at the end of it, if you have comments on what either worked or didn't work or what we could do better, you would include that as part of your report.

           M. Karagianis (Deputy Chair): Good. Thank you.

           May I just continue on in that vein a little bit?

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): Certainly.

           M. Karagianis (Deputy Chair): Obviously, we're embarking immediately on the tour. It starts this Friday with Victoria, and then next week we're out on the road to two towns or centres a day.

           Have you, this week, actually been doing some of that preliminary contact with the local media? It seems like a pretty heavy week to be trying to do that as well as everything else.

           Hon. C. Taylor: I haven't, and I had a conversation at noon with staff, saying: "Have you got any lined up yet?" They said: "We've got calls out to various people."

           Of course, it depends on them wanting to speak to me too, you know. It's not as easy as just sort of saying…. What I'm saying is: "I'm available. I think this is important. I'd like to talk to you and tell you about the committee and what their times are." So far nothing has clicked.

           M. Karagianis (Deputy Chair): Okay. You know, I do have concerns. I feel that there may not have been the same promotional, I guess, pressure put out into the general community prior to this tour. I don't think a lot of people actually know about it. Obviously, the interest groups that have signed up already know about it.

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           I'm not sure that it has actually captured the imagination of the public in the same way it has in past years. I do have concerns. I've already heard some concerns voiced from the north Island that we are not

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making an appearance there, and they're feeling somewhat left out of the process. Just so we're aware, we may receive some criticism on the lack of opportunity, I'm afraid.

           Hon. C. Taylor: This particular session is different from any that any of us has seen before, where we're just not allowed to leave. I think that's an imperative that Blair as Chair can't do anything about, you can't do anything about, and I can't do anything about. We have to work with it and try to do our best job.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): Maybe just a quick follow-up on that, Maurine. I agree. I mean, with the tight time lines we have, with only eight locations we're able to get to — although we're covering pretty much the regional concepts of the province…. I've heard people in Fort Nelson say it's difficult to get down. They understand that. The only thing I can encourage them to do is that written submissions are given full consideration equal to a person coming to stand before us. They're satisfied with that but are encouraging us that "time permitting, next year during the tour we'd like to see you out to more places."

           The people I've spoken to have understood the tight time frame, but I think it's human nature. You know, they would like us to visit their community.

           L. Krog: I just wanted to pay my compliments to the minister for ensuring that the pamphlet was printed in things other than English. The other issue, I think, that gives me concern is the growing divide between rural and urban British Columbia. I mean, it's a national problem, and I would hope that the committee in its deliberations will perhaps give more attention to those who come from rural British Columbia. The organized groups, the major organizations that often have the largest influence with government, can make their submissions at any time, but the folks 400 miles from Vancouver often don't enjoy that. That's simply a point I wanted to get on the record tonight. Again, my thanks.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): I do have two other speakers. I will go to Dave and then Nicholas.

           D. Hayer: First of all, thank you very much for coming over. This is my second term going on the Finance Committee tour. Last time we visited many communities, and we were able to learn from many different areas the different issues and concerns they had. I do understand that because of the election, this committee is actually going later than it normally would be going, as well as the different numbers in the House, so it does make it a challenge to make sure we have enough people in the House.

           I was going to ask you. You said this brochure is being printed in two or three other languages. Are you thinking of maybe putting some small ads, within the time frame, so that people in different languages who might not read that in those languages — maybe in their own local publications and newspapers and that in ethnic communities…

           Hon. C. Taylor: Yes.

           D. Hayer: …Greek, Italian, French, German, Filipino and many other ones — can read this and maybe provide direct input right through the e-mails or faxes or through writing?

           Hon. C. Taylor: As you know, this is a new initiative I've taken on, because I think it's important. I can't promise the hon. member that this time we'll have hit all of the groups you've talked about in the way you've talked about, but we're aware of this, and we're moving forward on it. I think that the point of getting into some of the papers is really an important one as well.

           D. Hayer: Thank you very much. I really appreciate that. I think this is forward-thinking. British Columbia today is much different than what it was 50 or a hundred years ago.

           Hon. C. Taylor: Absolutely.

           D. Hayer: We want to make sure that everybody from all walks of life has a chance to provide input on what they think we should be doing in our budget, how it should be spent and what the priorities are. I definitely like the idea of having prioritizing. That way you can have a choice to say where you should put more money, where you should put less money and where you should take it away from. You also have a section on that which says "other," where they can put anything else that might have been missed in everything else.

           N. Simons: Thank you, Madam Minister, for the opportunity to provide some feedback. I just wanted to echo my friend's comments about the requests from many community members, or the wish, that we were coming to a community closer to them. I guess the tight time frames really have precluded that option.

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           Perhaps we can work a little bit ahead of time for the next budget review to identify some of the communities that may have been not neglected but passed by this particular time. I've received some calls about that, so I take that as an important fact.

           At the same time, I have encouraged community members to write in. There doesn't need to be a perfectly bound edition of volumes of information. Their input can be as simple as a letter or even a paragraph. I think that due consideration will be made of all submissions.

           I'm pointing out on record that I will not be travelling next week, and I know Madam Clerk knows this. However, I will be following closely on my wireless Internet as I celebrate my father's 80th birthday in Nova Scotia. I think that might be one excuse that's permitted — not to be travelling with my friends from across the floor and my friend next to me.

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           I just wanted to make sure that we would make sure that people knew that their written submissions are also included, not just the questionnaire, which I think is a little limiting. I've encouraged people to write letters to me or to the hon. Chair as well. We'll make the best out of a situation that probably doesn't give us the full advantage of latitude in how we do this.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): Another question? I'll go to Richard.

           R. Lee: Thank you to the minister for arranging for the questionnaire to be translated into different languages. I also would like to point out that probably on-line answering of those questions is quite effective. On the website, I encourage students and all sectors of people who use the Internet to answer those questions using that kind of channel. I think that would be effective to generate quite a few comments and input.

           Hon. C. Taylor: We expect, actually, that it will dramatically jump this year — the use of the Internet to respond. I think you'll see a big jump in that. We're hopeful.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): Do we have any further questions of the minister this evening?

           Seeing none, I would like to again thank you for coming before the committee here this evening, minister. We're certainly looking forward to the job that we've been asked to do on behalf of the Legislative Assembly. It will be a task that we will take seriously. It is a task that, as we've indicated before, is an all-party task. This is not government or the opposition; this is both parties going out to hear from British Columbians and bringing a report back that I think will closely reflect what we hear across British Columbia. Thank you for taking the time this evening, and we look forward to presenting our report in mid-November.

           Hon. C. Taylor: Thank you, and thank you for all of the extra work that this does involve.

Public Hearings Schedule

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): All right. Thank you.

           We will move on. We do have a couple of other quick agenda items this evening. There is a travel agenda that we have put together. It has been handed out. I would like to just discuss a couple of quick items with the members.

           Friday is quite straightforward. We're here in Victoria. There is a challenge, come Tuesday. It follows Thanksgiving evening, and we are in Dawson Creek starting at 8 a.m. I have discussed with Kate the option of leaving very early Tuesday morning so that people could spend time with their families on Thanksgiving evening. It would mean a five o'clock departure from Vancouver, if that was satisfactory. I really want to put it out for discussion with the members to see what your preference is.

           Is there any feeling out there…? I know it is a tough schedule, and to miss Thanksgiving with your family is something that…. We give up a lot to do this job, and if we can accommodate it any other way….

           M. Karagianis (Deputy Chair): My concern has been, of course, for Jenny Kwan on our tour, because she does have a small child at home. This is actually a better option here — that we leave early in the morning. It would give her one more night at home with her child and for the rest of us, certainly, to stay home with our families. So I'm happy to have a very early departure. I know that Jenny has also concurred.

           Interjection.

           M. Karagianis (Deputy Chair): I'm speaking now for…. Leonard, I guess we'll look for…. But I'll defer.

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           L. Krog: I hate to be disagreeable. I will go with the majority of the committee, because I'm somewhat indifferent. I must say, from my perspective…. I'm cooking the bird on Sunday, so I'm indifferent about Monday.

           M. Karagianis (Deputy Chair): So you could come down here and leave early in the morning on Tuesday.

           L. Krog: Coming here early on Tuesday, it would easier for me to…. I'm going to have a night away from home anyway, if we're going out of Vancouver.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): One other option we do have is a later departure on Monday evening. That could be entertained as well. I will throw that out, versus eight o'clock, if nine o'clock was more accommodating for the members.

           I've heard so far that an early morning flight may be possible.

           D. Hayer: One thing. Going last year, we did realize that sometimes when you decide to leave the next day, weather is a problem. If there is fog there or something else and if the committee doesn't show up, people get pretty frustrated and angry.

           I remember a few times I was there, and there was one more person and we didn't have the staff there. There were only a few of the staff members. We were trying to hold the hearings and, at the same time, trying to explain to them why we did not plan it properly.

           They sometimes don't seem to understand that we have our other life too. This is going to take away most of my week from my constituents. Instead of spending my time with the constituents the week of Thanksgiving, I will be spending all the time listening to people on behalf of the…. My constituency is a small community, so I can listen to their concerns and make sure they are addressed in the budget. It gets to be a real challenge.

           I have no problem going on Monday, even though I think my family would prefer that I stay there. I haven't been able to stay for my wife's birthday or 

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many other days. This is one of those other days that we have to do work on behalf of British Columbians. We're their servants.

           At the same time, I don't want to be seeing people getting frustrated because of the weather — or we can't arrive there on time. That brings a different challenge altogether. That was from the experience last year.

           R. Lee: I'm flexible on the dates and the time, so whatever. I'm flexible.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): All right. It was just brought to my attention. As early as I thought 5 a.m. may be for leaving — because we may have to come to Victoria, as well, to pick up members of Hansard, which we do — it may be a 4:15 Tuesday morning flight.

           Maybe to go back to the Monday evening flight…. Rather than eight o'clock, would people like that extra hour with their families? Should we look at nine?

           K. Ryan-Lloyd (Clerk Assistant and Committee Clerk): We'll do that — absolutely. Consider it done.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): Consider that done.

           J. Kwan: Seeing as we've got a free night when we arrive.

           B. Lekstrom (Chair): Yes, I know. I see you've had time to look at that schedule. Okay, we will adjust that.

           Everything is looking well. There are a number of locations that are filling up rather quickly. I have encouraged people, if they're interested, to put their name forward or put in a written submission. It looks as though Vancouver is very tight right now, and as we indicated earlier, we may have to look at an extension of that day or another option. Probably by early next week or even later this week, we'll have to make a decision on that. I can certainly communicate that with the committee members Friday at our hearing here — where we're at.

           Is there any other business to be brought before the committee this evening, prior to our Friday startup of our public hearings?

           Seeing none, I want to thank the committee members. I am truly looking forward to this. I think it is going to be a great experience for all of us, whether we have participated in this or not. I have found it very rewarding to be able to hear. We come with a lot of views of our own, but I can tell you that I'm always surprised at some of the ideas we hear out there. I think we're going to learn a lot.

           I thank you, and I would look for a motion to adjourn.

           The committee adjourned at 6:29 p.m.

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